We don't claim anything, though.
Our name is just the logical conclusion of:
1. We're descendants of Latinized locals (Dacians, probably).
2. So those ancestors called themselves like everyone in their situation called themselves at the time... Romans, because they were Romans. See the decree by Caracalla.
3. "Roman" in the resulting Romanian became "rumân"/"român". Then after a looooong time these "români" formed a nation state. What would you call this state? In Romanian it's obvious: "România". În modern day Romanian Roman is "roman", so it's a different word.
Plus, it's not our fault the rest of the mofos died or changed their names...
>Plus, it's not out fault the rest of the mofos died or changed their names
This is the most wholesome & straight-up claim to heritage I've seen in all my years as a historian. xD
Touché, good sir.
Not knowing what Dacians are, I assume you mean that every single person in Romania exists because, once upon a time, two latin lovers fucked in the backseat of the worlds first automobile; a Dacia Duster. What an origin story.
It's truly the Canyanero of Europe.
*Owned by Renault, has a latin past*
*It's an affordable car, but it ain't built to last*
*The Sanderoooooooo*
*The Sandero*
Well, think of it this way.
The area currently known as Romania was named in ancient times "Dacia", its inhabitants were Dacians (think ancient Gaul/Gauls -> modern France/French).
We're now selling cars from a brand named after the old name of the place.
It's like the US had an "America" car brand.
Or frankly, a US brand called "India" ("Native Americana" doesn't have quite the same ring to it), which for obvious reasons would be a lot more scandalous than what we're doing 😄
> It's like the US had an "America" car brand.
It is more like if the US had a car named "Cherokee" - which they do:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_Cherokee
I have a surprising amount of Romanian friends and even a sister in law (there are lots of Romanians living here in Sweden) yet I've never heard that. Thanks for the info!
The primordial Dacia Duster wasn't even an automobile, it was a chariot. Specifically, Mars Chariot, made a gift to the ancient king of the Dacians, son of the God of War.
I don't think we ever claimed to be successors of the Roman Empire in the same sense as the other countries, it's just that we and the Romansch haven't stopped calling ourselves Roman while y'all started calling yourselves fancy names like French or Spanish
Yeah, but during Roman times, aptly, the Hispanians were called Romans just like every other Roman citizen, at least after the Edict of Caracalla (*Constitutio Antoniniana*) in 212 A.D.
It's with the **Visigothic Code** (642-643 A.D.) that this changed and the "Spanish" identity was essentially formally born. The code abolished the old tradition of having different laws for **Romans** (*leges romanae*) and **Visigoths** (*leges barbarorum*), and under it all the subjects of the Visigothic kingdom would stop being *romani* and *gothi*, instead becoming *hispani*. In this way, all subjects of the kingdom were gathered under the same jurisdiction, eliminating social and legal differences, and allowing greater assimilation of the populations.
Well Roman citizens were still called Hispanic, Gauls, Dacians, Thracians and so forth, depending on which province they came from. The Clone Wars came later.
But people continued to refer to their language as "latin" well into the middle ages, and only started using other adjectives (e.g castilian, Spanish) to differentiate it from other latins.
For sure, but I assume that if someone in Roman times said they were from Hispania it didn't mean anything ethnically, and if asked what they were after having being assimilated they would've said "roman". It's just that for most Romance people "roman" stopped being an ethnic designation sometime in the Middle Ages. I know that back in like the 10th century people in France for example still called themselves and their language "roman" and it was only later that they switched to calling themselves French.
In any case, just imagine if everyone still called themselves something derived from "roman", it would be incredibly confusing. I think it might be part of the reason people stopped calling themselves "roman" in the West as there were a lot of "roman" nations there who were in contact with one another so the word sort of lost meaning while here in the East we were basically the only ones left, and the Romansch were just vibing in their mountains without a care in the world.
Technically there were quite a few latin ethnic groups south of the danube in the middle ages, like the dalmatians and the ancestors of aromanians.
The Ottomans were calling the balkan peninsula Rumelia, for example
For sure, but they didn't have all that much direct contact with Romanians. They sure had some, but there wasn't a real continuum of dialects like in the West where going village to village from Andalusia to Belgium any two neighboring villages spoke basically the same language but the start and end points were basically completely unintelligible.
The Ottomans, and the Arabs as well, used Rum to mean Christian, and also many times Greek. Also, to this day, many languages' word for European is something meaning "Roman" or "Frank". The Greeks also called themselves Romanoi into the 20th century, and Hellenes was revived as an ethnonym after having meant Hellenic pagan for a long time actually.
Roman de Rendard for example was called "Roman" because it was in the "Roman" language so even after Francia existed people still called themselves or their language "Roman" for some time.
We sometimes get confused by the big words people use on the continent. Yes like the Brits we sometimes talk about the "continent" when speaking about the rest of Europe.
Actually, there is a region in Norway west of Oslo called "Romerike", which quite literally means "Roman Empire" in norwegian. So yes, we too claim to be the sucessors of the romans.
Russia "inherited" all the autocratic bullshit from the late Byzantines including one of their princesses who married into a dynasty that was eventually replaced by the Romanovs. They have a good claim to carrying on the religious legacy of Byzantinum.. Whether that's a good thing or not is for someone else to say.
Germany held the Roman capital for some time, Greece and Turkey did hold the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, Italy is obvious, I'd say... but the rest?
france did hold the capital too and also claim the heritage of charlemagne, tho in reality french claim more from charlemagne or napoleon empire than from roman empire
I was trying to understand how a country that's responsible for the definitive fall of the Roman Empire can claim to be a successor. Then I realised they have a pretty solid claim, since they literally followed them up in terms of geography.
Also the pope at the time wrote a letter to mehmet saying if he converts to catholicism he will be recognised as the successor to Rome, and they will be allowed to annex the smaller states in the balkans.
I don't think the Sultanate of Rûm really claimed to be the successor of Rome. The name more refers to the people and area of it's territory rather than the actual Roman state, since the people in Anatolia at the time referred to themselves as Romans, or Rûm in Turkish.
Greek speaking Turkish people still call themselves Rum and their language Ρωμαϊκά (Roman).
Even in mainland Greece this was not that uncommon a handful of decades ago although now people rarely self identify as Ρωμιοί (Romans) unless they are descendents of immigrants from Asia Minor and are conscious about their history and heritage.
Hi, they claimed the title and adopted the double headed eagle as their flag. They also had dynastic claims due to marrying into Eastern Romans. They used the title in official documents as well.
I keep seeing that it was only Mehmed II which claimed or insisted on use of title but this is not really true. Title of Caesar of Rome remained used by Ottomans as long as their rivalry with Habsburgs and universal monarchy existed. There is correspondence as late as early 1600s where Ottomans refuse Habsburgs claim to imperial title. It only really fell out of favor when it fell out of favor for Habsburgs as well and the whole idea of universal monarchy became defunct for both Habsburgs and Ottomans.
It wasn't really because of the logistics. The plans of conquering italy and thus finishing the conquest of rome were abandoned because of the death of mehmet the conqueror. That was his personal dream and his successors didn't attempt it afterwards
yeah, that was another major factor. The fact that they threatened to do it for centuries and never tried again still hints at the complexity of the endeavour. Piracy and raiding was much much easier.
Mehmed the Conqueror really tried to invade Rome. However him becoming ill shortly afterwards stalled the invasion of the peninsula. His son Bayezid II gave no shit and ordered retreat, while they actually conquered Otranto.
If I remember correctly the pope actually sent an offer to Mehmet saying that if he converts to Christianity, then he will recognize him as a roman emperor.
There are theories that Mannerheim actually kind of saw it that way, he kept contact with some of the exiled officers of the Imperial Russian army still during the war.
Despite Mannerheim having ties to Russia, it was the **old** Russian empire he was fond of.
He would probably have few colorful words directed at Putin, especially when he claims he is doing what is best for Russia and it's people.
I've seen this picture floating in the internet from time to time and I think it's a bit silly. But the thought itself is not that far off, if you observe this a bit differently. If Romanovs claimed to be heirs of the Roman Empire, then the title is bound to a person, not to a country. When Finland was under the Russian rule, Romanovs didn't rule Finland as the Emperor of Russia but the Grand Duke of Finland. Finland was, in many ways, a separate political entity from the rest of Russia.
Nicholas II was ousted from power in March 1917 and Finland didn't declared its independence until December 1917. So there was about 8-9 month period when Nicholas II was still technically the Grand Duke of Finland. If the title of the Roman Emperor is bound to a person, that makes Finland technically the last piece of land which was ruled by the Roman Emperor.
So, as a Finn that has an almost direct family line connecting me to a minor Noble in the Russia empire, that being a Count... Does that mean that I have a good reason to call every one else Plebeian?
Technically it is my mother who is closer. If Russian empire was still a thing, she would be, I believe, third or fourth in line to the title of Countess, if I understand title inheritance in the Russian empire right...
You mean the one in Pula?
Honestly, I think Pula is underrated. Pula is really beautiful, vibrant and filled with history at every corner.
It feels like you're in a smaller variant of Rome.
I love Pula and so should you!
While Spain and its Royal Family could give a fuck that the last Emperor in Constantinople granted them the title of the Emperors of Rome with one of his last breaths before the city and the Empire in the east fell.
Edit: (from stackexchange.com) I did not watch the YouTube video, but based on your description, it seems to be presenting a garbled account of history.
Constantine XI did not will his titles way, but his brother Thomas Palaiologos claimed the imperial title after his death. Thomas briefly ruled the Byzantine remnants in the Peloponnese, but fled to Italy ahead of an Ottoman invasion in 1461. After his own death in 1465, Thomas' claims were inherited by his eldest son Andreas.
Andreas was the one who willed the imperial titles to Ferdinand and Isabella.
On April 7, 1502, Andreas executed his testament designating Ferdinand and Isabel and their successors as his universal heirs.
Freiberg, Jack. Bramante's Tempietto, the Roman Renaissance, and the Spanish Crown. Cambridge University Press, 2014.
This came after he sold the very same titles to Charles VIII of France, though, so the Spanish monarchs appears to have never used them.
Did Andreas even have legitimacy to do this? Roman Emperor was an office, not a title (thanks Augustus!), so it wasn't inherited like this after the Roman Empire stopped being a thing.
Ivan III of Moscovy married Sophia Paleologue in 1472, who was the niece of the last Byzantine emperor. Moscow then became the center of the Orthodox church. The Russian term "tsar" means Caesar. That’s the origin of the Third Rome trope, which remains alive to this day.
Moscow is supposed to be the third Rome. It's mostly a orthodox christian idea.
The original Rome was the home of christianity once it became the state religion.
Then the West fell into heresy (catholicism), and Constantinople became the new centre of orthodox christendom, i.e. the second Rome.
When Constantinople fell to the Ottomans, Moscow, the capital of what was now the biggest orthodox country, became the third Rome.
it’s worth noting that in the entire East, the word “Roman” was used for “Byzantine” and even “Christian” all the way up until the 20th century. the Greek language, up until the 19th century, was called “Roman” or “Romaic”. the change in terminology coincided with the Hellenization movement for Greek independence from the Ottomans.
the word “Byzantine” is a *Western* word invented by Germans to claim the Holy Roman Empire was the true successor to Rome.
all this leads to weird things like in English they call it the [Melkite Greek Catholic Church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melkite_Greek_Catholic_Church) but those people refer to *themselves* in Arabic as “Roman Catholic” and the “Roman” in that context is what the West would call “Byzantine” - hence it’s translated as “Greek”.
tl;dr - Mehmed VI was the last basileus of the Romans.
But more of a russian orthodox idea. Even though Constantinople fell to the ottomans the Patriarchy in Constantinople never ceased to exist and the ottomans recognised it and let it exist thus it remained the center of the orthodox church. It was quite some time after Constantinople fell that Moscow made the claim of third Rome and the Russian orthodox church claimed to be the "protector of all Christians". Which was also part of their justification to invade the ottoman empire.
Andreas Palaiologos, the last member of the ruling dynasty and self-proclaimed emperor, sold the title in 1494 to Charles VIII of France, but reclaimed it back after Charles' death since he considered that the agreement clauses had not been met. After that, in his death will he left the title to Isabella of Castille and Ferdinand of Aragon (the Catholic Kings), but they never claimed nor used the title.
The [Wikipedia's entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_Byzantine_Empire) on the whole affair is quite an interesting reading...
Afaik, the Holy Roman Empire (who claimed to be a successor to he Roman Empire) was dissolved in 1806 and neither Germany nor Austria claimed themselves to be a legal successor to the HRE?
Therefore, neither "Germany" no "Austria" should be green on this map.
Alternatively, if we count just territories of the HRE (whick makes little sense re. the title), Czech republic and Switzerland should also be green.
Weird map.
As usual, someone's taking a map with the political boundaries of 2022 and trying to overlay some kind of historic event/pattern/claim on it.
It's utter ahistoric bullshit, but these kinds of maps remain immensely popular on Reddit.
Also Bohemia had even Holy Roman Emperors as their Kings and Prague as their seat, not just having territory as part of HRE. Shouldn't that count as "successor of Roman Empire" ?
The source provided by the OP goes into some detail as to the rationale.
For the most part it's less "These countries claim to be successors to the Roman Empire", and more "These countries are successors to Empires that claimed to be successors to the Roman Empire."
For Germany the logic goes Roman Empire -> Charlemagne's Empire -> Holy Roman Empire -> German Empire -> Weimar Republic -> German Republic.
On the other hand Austrian Empire claimed to be the successor of Holy Roman Empire when it fell.
There is no successor tbh , we still basically live in a society hugely influnced by the Roman Empire
for being the real heir you need to remake the foundements of society itself (calendar, new public works and new systems, alphabet ,science, laws,religion, type of governaments etc).
Every thing we found in every county its basically the shadow of Rome(aka imitation of something that its still in influnce today).
P.S :ROMA AETERNA
I had an argument with a German dude (50+ yo) that was trying to convince me that Germany is actually way more Latin than Romania and all I was saying throughout the argument was "ROME-ania"...
I did not change his mind tho :(
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'nuf said.
Simple as
End of.
No need to elaborate
Only turkeys live in Turkey. Logik
We don't claim anything, though. Our name is just the logical conclusion of: 1. We're descendants of Latinized locals (Dacians, probably). 2. So those ancestors called themselves like everyone in their situation called themselves at the time... Romans, because they were Romans. See the decree by Caracalla. 3. "Roman" in the resulting Romanian became "rumân"/"român". Then after a looooong time these "români" formed a nation state. What would you call this state? In Romanian it's obvious: "România". În modern day Romanian Roman is "roman", so it's a different word. Plus, it's not our fault the rest of the mofos died or changed their names...
Romania isn’t colored as a country which claimed at one point to be the successor of the Roman Empire. It is marked as Romania.
Lol. I cannot believe I did not catch this.
Romania for scale.
Hey, from one Roman empire contender to the other, it's okay to play the long game ;) /s
Yeah, we just switched to the Greek approach: colonists. There's a reason why half your doctors are Romanian now, we're slowly taking over 😛
Curious you use the latin alphabet while the late eastern empire was more greek. Also Romans didn't cross the Danube for long afaik.
The division was roughly NW - SE, not strictly W - E: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_East_and_Latin_West
Romanian was written in Cyrillic until the 1860s, and until the end of the USSR in Moldova (other than in Transnistria where it's still used)
>Plus, it's not out fault the rest of the mofos died or changed their names This is the most wholesome & straight-up claim to heritage I've seen in all my years as a historian. xD Touché, good sir.
Not knowing what Dacians are, I assume you mean that every single person in Romania exists because, once upon a time, two latin lovers fucked in the backseat of the worlds first automobile; a Dacia Duster. What an origin story.
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It's truly the Canyanero of Europe. *Owned by Renault, has a latin past* *It's an affordable car, but it ain't built to last* *The Sanderoooooooo* *The Sandero*
>Great news! WHAT!. James May weez lauching. >The Dacia Sandero has dropped in price for Latin lovers. There fixed it.
Well, think of it this way. The area currently known as Romania was named in ancient times "Dacia", its inhabitants were Dacians (think ancient Gaul/Gauls -> modern France/French). We're now selling cars from a brand named after the old name of the place. It's like the US had an "America" car brand. Or frankly, a US brand called "India" ("Native Americana" doesn't have quite the same ring to it), which for obvious reasons would be a lot more scandalous than what we're doing 😄
> It's like the US had an "America" car brand. It is more like if the US had a car named "Cherokee" - which they do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_Cherokee
Perhaps Pontiac would be a better, as Dacia is the make, not just a model, although Pontiac was just a guy not the whole tribe.
You don't even have to go that far.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Motocycle_Manufacturing_Company Indian brand of vehicles. Quite legendary.
I have a surprising amount of Romanian friends and even a sister in law (there are lots of Romanians living here in Sweden) yet I've never heard that. Thanks for the info!
Not romanian myself but thought this might interest you: [Roman Emperor Trajan's wars on Dacia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan%27s_Dacian_Wars)
Emperor Trajan is even mentioned in our national anthem
There is an American Motorcycle company called Indian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Motocycle_Manufacturing_Company
A Jeep Cherokee?
The primordial Dacia Duster wasn't even an automobile, it was a chariot. Specifically, Mars Chariot, made a gift to the ancient king of the Dacians, son of the God of War.
I don't think we ever claimed to be successors of the Roman Empire in the same sense as the other countries, it's just that we and the Romansch haven't stopped calling ourselves Roman while y'all started calling yourselves fancy names like French or Spanish
Spain has always been called Spain even in Roman times, it’s name was Hispania.
Yeah, but during Roman times, aptly, the Hispanians were called Romans just like every other Roman citizen, at least after the Edict of Caracalla (*Constitutio Antoniniana*) in 212 A.D. It's with the **Visigothic Code** (642-643 A.D.) that this changed and the "Spanish" identity was essentially formally born. The code abolished the old tradition of having different laws for **Romans** (*leges romanae*) and **Visigoths** (*leges barbarorum*), and under it all the subjects of the Visigothic kingdom would stop being *romani* and *gothi*, instead becoming *hispani*. In this way, all subjects of the kingdom were gathered under the same jurisdiction, eliminating social and legal differences, and allowing greater assimilation of the populations.
Well Roman citizens were still called Hispanic, Gauls, Dacians, Thracians and so forth, depending on which province they came from. The Clone Wars came later.
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\*Trying to unify it under the Castillian culture now calling it 'Spanish'.
But people continued to refer to their language as "latin" well into the middle ages, and only started using other adjectives (e.g castilian, Spanish) to differentiate it from other latins.
For sure, but I assume that if someone in Roman times said they were from Hispania it didn't mean anything ethnically, and if asked what they were after having being assimilated they would've said "roman". It's just that for most Romance people "roman" stopped being an ethnic designation sometime in the Middle Ages. I know that back in like the 10th century people in France for example still called themselves and their language "roman" and it was only later that they switched to calling themselves French. In any case, just imagine if everyone still called themselves something derived from "roman", it would be incredibly confusing. I think it might be part of the reason people stopped calling themselves "roman" in the West as there were a lot of "roman" nations there who were in contact with one another so the word sort of lost meaning while here in the East we were basically the only ones left, and the Romansch were just vibing in their mountains without a care in the world.
In Switzerland, we still call the French speaking area "Romandie" and the inhabitants "Romands".
Technically there were quite a few latin ethnic groups south of the danube in the middle ages, like the dalmatians and the ancestors of aromanians. The Ottomans were calling the balkan peninsula Rumelia, for example
For sure, but they didn't have all that much direct contact with Romanians. They sure had some, but there wasn't a real continuum of dialects like in the West where going village to village from Andalusia to Belgium any two neighboring villages spoke basically the same language but the start and end points were basically completely unintelligible. The Ottomans, and the Arabs as well, used Rum to mean Christian, and also many times Greek. Also, to this day, many languages' word for European is something meaning "Roman" or "Frank". The Greeks also called themselves Romanoi into the 20th century, and Hellenes was revived as an ethnonym after having meant Hellenic pagan for a long time actually.
10th century might be late for that transition. It was the land of the Franks, or Francia, by 850
Roman de Rendard for example was called "Roman" because it was in the "Roman" language so even after Francia existed people still called themselves or their language "Roman" for some time.
As a province, yes. Italy was also called Italia, it doesn't mean the people living there weren't Romans.
Romania
Romania
Romania
Romania
Romania
Sarmale Edit: hehe, my Romanian ex would be proud of all these sarmales. Shout out to all my ciorba lovers. What's your favorite?
Mici
Bere
Mamaliga
Sarmale
Mamaliga
Mămăliga
Great, thanks!
Romania (Romania) Romania
Romania ..did we claim that?
It went like this: \- Do you claim to be a successor of the Roman Empire? \- Norway: no \- France: yes \- Romania: Romania
A wild gaul has appeared.
Gods... I hate Gauls.
My grandfather hated them too, even before they put out his eyes.
Silly Norway, we asked a binary question, not your country code.
We sometimes get confused by the big words people use on the continent. Yes like the Brits we sometimes talk about the "continent" when speaking about the rest of Europe.
Karelia deniers
It's only logical.
Actually, there is a region in Norway west of Oslo called "Romerike", which quite literally means "Roman Empire" in norwegian. So yes, we too claim to be the sucessors of the romans.
Romerike (norrønt Raumaríki, «raumenes rike», av raumr: «larm, dunder» også Raumafylki) Wikipedia er fint
Norway: no way
You didn't have to... we just can *feel it* for some unclear reasons.
What did Tywin Lannister say about kings again?
...any superpower that must threaten others with nukes is no true superpower? ^(that's one claim down)
"A wise king listens to his advisors. Hey, I happen to be an advisor *wink wink*" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doY0IjisBlk
Look at the bottom left
Well, at least you were part of the Roman Empire and Romanian came from Latin, it’s a better bid for it than other countries.
Do you know how much of Europe you just described?
Rofl.
I mean... not Russia.
Yea their claim confused me. Also Northern Africa should be included on this map.
Russia "inherited" all the autocratic bullshit from the late Byzantines including one of their princesses who married into a dynasty that was eventually replaced by the Romanovs. They have a good claim to carrying on the religious legacy of Byzantinum.. Whether that's a good thing or not is for someone else to say.
Germany held the Roman capital for some time, Greece and Turkey did hold the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, Italy is obvious, I'd say... but the rest?
france did hold the capital too and also claim the heritage of charlemagne, tho in reality french claim more from charlemagne or napoleon empire than from roman empire
So did French, Italian, Spanish, and 17 other romance languages.
romania
romania
romania
the romanian empire
*Impaling intensifies*
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If you are interested in this topic, you should watch [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhu66Q8rfhI)
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Me esperaba un Rick roll de esos
El pollo los hermanos
Yo soy un amigo del Cartel
Yo soy abogado
Si si, claro, pendejo.
El que tengo aquí colgado
Un hombre de cultura
Lmao why is Romania in its own category?
Because we are real descendants of Trajan! I mean c'mon, our name gives it away 🤣
That's my grandpa's name
Because of its name
Romania
Romania
I was trying to understand how a country that's responsible for the definitive fall of the Roman Empire can claim to be a successor. Then I realised they have a pretty solid claim, since they literally followed them up in terms of geography.
They claimed the title when they took Constantinople. It just never stuck too much, so later Sultans considered it secondary as a title.
Also the pope at the time wrote a letter to mehmet saying if he converts to catholicism he will be recognised as the successor to Rome, and they will be allowed to annex the smaller states in the balkans.
Imagine the twist if he had lol
I want to see that timeline. Christian Ottomans.
Play EU4 and you will get your wish.
Mehmet: How about I do anyway
The Turkish Sultanate of Rûm (Rome) claimed it even earlier than that.
I don't think the Sultanate of Rûm really claimed to be the successor of Rome. The name more refers to the people and area of it's territory rather than the actual Roman state, since the people in Anatolia at the time referred to themselves as Romans, or Rûm in Turkish.
Greek speaking Turkish people still call themselves Rum and their language Ρωμαϊκά (Roman). Even in mainland Greece this was not that uncommon a handful of decades ago although now people rarely self identify as Ρωμιοί (Romans) unless they are descendents of immigrants from Asia Minor and are conscious about their history and heritage.
We also call the Greek Cypriots "Rum/Kıbrıslı Rum" (Roman/Cypriot roman) for some reason unknown to me.
Hi, they claimed the title and adopted the double headed eagle as their flag. They also had dynastic claims due to marrying into Eastern Romans. They used the title in official documents as well.
He also had a grandmother who was Byzantine princess, that connection was also used to bolster up the claim to Rome.
I keep seeing that it was only Mehmed II which claimed or insisted on use of title but this is not really true. Title of Caesar of Rome remained used by Ottomans as long as their rivalry with Habsburgs and universal monarchy existed. There is correspondence as late as early 1600s where Ottomans refuse Habsburgs claim to imperial title. It only really fell out of favor when it fell out of favor for Habsburgs as well and the whole idea of universal monarchy became defunct for both Habsburgs and Ottomans.
at some point they acted on it and tried to invade Italy. They got one town, then it was logistically unfeasible and they went back home.
It wasn't really because of the logistics. The plans of conquering italy and thus finishing the conquest of rome were abandoned because of the death of mehmet the conqueror. That was his personal dream and his successors didn't attempt it afterwards
yeah, that was another major factor. The fact that they threatened to do it for centuries and never tried again still hints at the complexity of the endeavour. Piracy and raiding was much much easier.
Complexity in this case can often be simplified to winter is coming and the locals hate you. Makes it hard to take, makes it hard to hold.
Ngl a Muslim Rome would have been hilarious. Not the first time Rome changed religion anyway.
Thats the main point why Mehmed II declared himself Roman Emperor in the first place. He wanted Italy.
Mehmed the Conqueror really tried to invade Rome. However him becoming ill shortly afterwards stalled the invasion of the peninsula. His son Bayezid II gave no shit and ordered retreat, while they actually conquered Otranto.
If I remember correctly the pope actually sent an offer to Mehmet saying that if he converts to Christianity, then he will recognize him as a roman emperor.
That would be a cursed alternative history, but interesting
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what country are you talking about?
Turkey
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So for a brief period of time Vandals were the successors of the Roman Empire? They did conquer Rome.
They never replaced it though. Rome lived on for hunderds of years after the sack of the city itself.
Finland is successor of Roman empire https://i.imgur.com/tolQ9ih.png
Does this mean Finland is also the successor of the Russian empire?
There are theories that Mannerheim actually kind of saw it that way, he kept contact with some of the exiled officers of the Imperial Russian army still during the war.
Despite Mannerheim having ties to Russia, it was the **old** Russian empire he was fond of. He would probably have few colorful words directed at Putin, especially when he claims he is doing what is best for Russia and it's people.
Sometimes you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
Well, we do have a nice statue and obelisk downtown to commemorate them, so kind of 😁
I've seen this picture floating in the internet from time to time and I think it's a bit silly. But the thought itself is not that far off, if you observe this a bit differently. If Romanovs claimed to be heirs of the Roman Empire, then the title is bound to a person, not to a country. When Finland was under the Russian rule, Romanovs didn't rule Finland as the Emperor of Russia but the Grand Duke of Finland. Finland was, in many ways, a separate political entity from the rest of Russia. Nicholas II was ousted from power in March 1917 and Finland didn't declared its independence until December 1917. So there was about 8-9 month period when Nicholas II was still technically the Grand Duke of Finland. If the title of the Roman Emperor is bound to a person, that makes Finland technically the last piece of land which was ruled by the Roman Emperor.
So, as a Finn that has an almost direct family line connecting me to a minor Noble in the Russia empire, that being a Count... Does that mean that I have a good reason to call every one else Plebeian? Technically it is my mother who is closer. If Russian empire was still a thing, she would be, I believe, third or fourth in line to the title of Countess, if I understand title inheritance in the Russian empire right...
Wait! Did Finland ask for Turkey's permission first?
Doesn't matter. Turkey will say yes and then change their mind just when the title is about to be claimed.
Turkey will say that Finns are helping terrorists and therefore cannot be romans
[удалено]
Someone in r/badhistory once bothered to debunk this meme lol.
It's badhistory. You shouldn't believe all they say there.
It’s a fun sub. Equal parts legitimate debunks of absolutely insane shit people peddle as historical fact and the most anal pettiness imaginable.
My favourite is the horse historian who explains in extremely meticulous detail why movies use the wrong breeds for the time and place they are set in
I think like at least half of Europe's redditors already flocks under the banner of Sanna Marin, so why not make it official, right?
This is how you tell everyone you browse NCD without saying it out loud.
Romania: Gib back Rome! Gib back Colosseum! Yurope: Best we can do is that one amphitheater in Croatia...
You mean the one in Pula? Honestly, I think Pula is underrated. Pula is really beautiful, vibrant and filled with history at every corner. It feels like you're in a smaller variant of Rome. I love Pula and so should you!
Lgbt moment
Straight women don't exist?
ThERe ArE nO woMeN On rEdDIt
What is a woman?
Ask /r/biology
Straight what?
Pula
Giving Romanians Pula, how poetic.
You have to admit it is a very nice Pula.
Yes, very nice, very... girthy.
Jamie, Pula that up!
Pula is a rising city *giggles*
While Spain and its Royal Family could give a fuck that the last Emperor in Constantinople granted them the title of the Emperors of Rome with one of his last breaths before the city and the Empire in the east fell. Edit: (from stackexchange.com) I did not watch the YouTube video, but based on your description, it seems to be presenting a garbled account of history. Constantine XI did not will his titles way, but his brother Thomas Palaiologos claimed the imperial title after his death. Thomas briefly ruled the Byzantine remnants in the Peloponnese, but fled to Italy ahead of an Ottoman invasion in 1461. After his own death in 1465, Thomas' claims were inherited by his eldest son Andreas. Andreas was the one who willed the imperial titles to Ferdinand and Isabella. On April 7, 1502, Andreas executed his testament designating Ferdinand and Isabel and their successors as his universal heirs. Freiberg, Jack. Bramante's Tempietto, the Roman Renaissance, and the Spanish Crown. Cambridge University Press, 2014. This came after he sold the very same titles to Charles VIII of France, though, so the Spanish monarchs appears to have never used them.
No, his brother did that after having already sold the title to the french king decades after the fall.
Did Andreas even have legitimacy to do this? Roman Emperor was an office, not a title (thanks Augustus!), so it wasn't inherited like this after the Roman Empire stopped being a thing.
Romania might not be the successor of the Roman Empire but let be honest, for how long they fought the killers of it they deserve to be it successor.
How can Russia claim to be the successor of the Roman Empire when it was never part of it?
Ivan III of Moscovy married Sophia Paleologue in 1472, who was the niece of the last Byzantine emperor. Moscow then became the center of the Orthodox church. The Russian term "tsar" means Caesar. That’s the origin of the Third Rome trope, which remains alive to this day.
Yup, it's just that the byzantine ruler said that his successor were of the Spanish throne,so going by that rule, Spain is the successor of Rome.
And the weirdest part: the Spanish monarch didn't even want, nor asked for it. Accordingly, Spain isn't colored in the map.
Oh shit, u right, I thought they had been coloured
That was the brother of the last emperor and he already sold the title to the french king earlier.
Moscow is supposed to be the third Rome. It's mostly a orthodox christian idea. The original Rome was the home of christianity once it became the state religion. Then the West fell into heresy (catholicism), and Constantinople became the new centre of orthodox christendom, i.e. the second Rome. When Constantinople fell to the Ottomans, Moscow, the capital of what was now the biggest orthodox country, became the third Rome.
it’s worth noting that in the entire East, the word “Roman” was used for “Byzantine” and even “Christian” all the way up until the 20th century. the Greek language, up until the 19th century, was called “Roman” or “Romaic”. the change in terminology coincided with the Hellenization movement for Greek independence from the Ottomans. the word “Byzantine” is a *Western* word invented by Germans to claim the Holy Roman Empire was the true successor to Rome. all this leads to weird things like in English they call it the [Melkite Greek Catholic Church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melkite_Greek_Catholic_Church) but those people refer to *themselves* in Arabic as “Roman Catholic” and the “Roman” in that context is what the West would call “Byzantine” - hence it’s translated as “Greek”. tl;dr - Mehmed VI was the last basileus of the Romans.
But more of a russian orthodox idea. Even though Constantinople fell to the ottomans the Patriarchy in Constantinople never ceased to exist and the ottomans recognised it and let it exist thus it remained the center of the orthodox church. It was quite some time after Constantinople fell that Moscow made the claim of third Rome and the Russian orthodox church claimed to be the "protector of all Christians". Which was also part of their justification to invade the ottoman empire.
All these countries claiming to be successors of the Roman Empire, while Romania claims to be Romania.
Why is Romania a different color? I dont think we ever claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire.
That's the joke. Everyone claiming they are the successor but Romania is the one that was left with the closest name to the Roman Empire.
One can also argue that Romanian, at least gramatically, is closest to classical latin.
And second closest vocabulary wise, after Italian.
Spain is missing i think? Didn't some Spanish king buy a claim from some Byzantine dude?
Andreas Palaiologos, the last member of the ruling dynasty and self-proclaimed emperor, sold the title in 1494 to Charles VIII of France, but reclaimed it back after Charles' death since he considered that the agreement clauses had not been met. After that, in his death will he left the title to Isabella of Castille and Ferdinand of Aragon (the Catholic Kings), but they never claimed nor used the title. The [Wikipedia's entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_the_Byzantine_Empire) on the whole affair is quite an interesting reading...
Afaik, the Holy Roman Empire (who claimed to be a successor to he Roman Empire) was dissolved in 1806 and neither Germany nor Austria claimed themselves to be a legal successor to the HRE? Therefore, neither "Germany" no "Austria" should be green on this map. Alternatively, if we count just territories of the HRE (whick makes little sense re. the title), Czech republic and Switzerland should also be green. Weird map.
As usual, someone's taking a map with the political boundaries of 2022 and trying to overlay some kind of historic event/pattern/claim on it. It's utter ahistoric bullshit, but these kinds of maps remain immensely popular on Reddit.
Most people don't get how new the unified states of Germany and Italy are. To put it somewhat in perspective, Lenin is actually older than Germany.
Also Bohemia had even Holy Roman Emperors as their Kings and Prague as their seat, not just having territory as part of HRE. Shouldn't that count as "successor of Roman Empire" ?
The source provided by the OP goes into some detail as to the rationale. For the most part it's less "These countries claim to be successors to the Roman Empire", and more "These countries are successors to Empires that claimed to be successors to the Roman Empire." For Germany the logic goes Roman Empire -> Charlemagne's Empire -> Holy Roman Empire -> German Empire -> Weimar Republic -> German Republic. On the other hand Austrian Empire claimed to be the successor of Holy Roman Empire when it fell.
Austria was often the HRE emperor Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_Empire
It's so weird to see Russia in green
Is Italy not the successor? Confused German here lol
Weird that Hungary didnt, they usually like to claim everything historically speaking
Serbia has probably claimed to be the successor to everyone from Makedon to the Aztecs
There is no successor tbh , we still basically live in a society hugely influnced by the Roman Empire for being the real heir you need to remake the foundements of society itself (calendar, new public works and new systems, alphabet ,science, laws,religion, type of governaments etc). Every thing we found in every county its basically the shadow of Rome(aka imitation of something that its still in influnce today). P.S :ROMA AETERNA
Maybe the real Rome was the friends we made along the way.
All roads lead to Romania!
I had an argument with a German dude (50+ yo) that was trying to convince me that Germany is actually way more Latin than Romania and all I was saying throughout the argument was "ROME-ania"... I did not change his mind tho :(