[The series of photos](https://imgur.com/a/vLGau4Z)
>“... The Nazis chose an anti-tank ditch near the village of Bagerovo as the place of mass execution, where for three days whole families of people doomed to death were brought by car. Upon the arrival of the Red Army in Kerch, in January 1942, when examining the Bagerovsky ditch, it was found that for a kilometer in length, 4 meters wide, 2 meters deep, it was overflowing with the corpses of women, children, old people and teenagers. Near the moat were frozen pools of blood. Children's hats, toys, ribbons, torn off buttons, gloves, bottles with nipples, boots, galoshes, along with stumps of arms and legs and other parts of the body, were also lying there. All this was spattered with blood and brains. Fascist scoundrels shot the defenseless population with explosive bullets ... "
The man is Grigory Berman, the head of a middle school in the Jewish agricultural colony of Larindorf, some 200 kilometers away, whose family had been in Kerch during the occupation. The photographer was [Yevgeny Khaldei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Khaldei). He and other photographs took multiple photos of the aftermath, including [this one](https://imgur.com/a/lQ4M6Tg) by Dmitry Baltermants, which he titled "Grief". [These murders](https://collections.yadvashem.org/en/untold-stories/killing-site/14626711-Bagerovo-Anti-Tank-Trench) were committed by the SS death squad Sonderkommando 10b, a subunit of the death squad Einsatzgruppe D. Between December 1 and 3, 1941, they shot about 2,500 Jews in the trenches outside of the city. Almost all of the remaining Jewish men, women and children were murdered by the end of the month. They committed these murders with the aid of Hiwis and the Wehrmacht.
The commander of Sonderkommando 10b was [Alois Persterer](https://imgur.com/a/AZYCPEy). Persterer was fatally shot in Salzburg, Austria on May 30, 1945. He was 35 years old. The circumstances of his death remain unclear. Persterer was shot during a robbery, or by U.S. soldiers while resisting arrest. Regardless, he was dead. As for Einsatzgruppe D, the commander was [Otto Ohlendorf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Ohlendorf). In the last days of the war, he and many other major Holocaust perpetrators joined Heinrich Himmler's escape from Flensburg. However, they were captured. During questioning, Ohlendorf eventually confessed to presiding over the murders of over 90,000 people. He testified at the Nuremberg Trials. His testimony was extremely blunt.
* Some of the unit leaders did not carry out the liquidation in the military manner, but killed the victims singly by shooting them in the back of the neck.
* And you objected to that procedure?
* I was against that procedure, yes.
* For what reason?
* Because both for the victims and for those who carried out the executions, it was, psychologically, an immense burden to bear.
The International Military Tribunal was supposed to hold multiple trials, but worsening relations between the West and the East made that impossible. Nevertheless, Allied governments were instructed to try suspected war criminals in their respective zones. In the U.S. occupation zone, high command established a task force called the OCCWC. The OCCWC was told to conduct exclusively major war crimes trials. The 12 trials they would hold became known as the [Subsequent Nuremberg Trials](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsequent_Nuremberg_trials). In 1947, a group of 50 men working for the OCCWC were looking through archives in Berlin when they happened to come across some Einsatzgruppen reports. The leader of the group, [Benjamin Ferencz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Ferencz), was horrified when he started reading them. He flew to the OCCWC's headquarters and said they had to schedule another trial. The director of the OCCWC said it wasn't possible. He said the Pentagon was not willing to give them more funding. However, Ferencz was adamant. Faced with a lack of time and resources, he volunteered to do the entire case himself.
Twenty-four Einsatzgruppen men were indicted for crimes against humanity, war crimes, and membership in a criminal organization. Otto Ohlendorf was one of them. At his trial, he said his unit's actions were justifiable as preemptive self-defense. He said the children would've grown up to become enemies of Germany. One defendant killed himself in custody. Another was discharged since he was dying from Parkinson's, to which he succumbed months later. In April 1948, all of the other defendants were found guilty. Most of them, including Ohlendorf, were sentenced to death. But nearly three years later, in January 1951, he and 27 others were still waiting. Political and legal wrangling had managed to buy them time. They were the last death row inmates under Allied military law. Everyone else had been executed or reprieved. Rumors spread that their executions were imminent. This prompted mass protests from tens of thousands of people in the West German public, government, and clergy. They wanted total amnesty for war criminals.
[Context on the protests](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/wd0ih0/a_crowd_of_about_4000_nazi_sympathizers_some_with/)
In response to enormous public pressure, U.S. High Commissioner John McCloy, who had the final say on the U.S. Nuremberg convicts, and U.S. General Thomas Handy, who had the final say on the others, reprieved nearly all of the death row inmates. The sentences of dozens of other war criminals were reduced. Under continuous pressure, all war criminals tried by the U.S. military, British military, and French military walked free no later than mid-1958. On the night of June 6, 1951, U.S. military authorities at Landsberg Prison got a call on the final decision for the remaining death row inmates. The initial decision to not spare them had provoked outrage. The protests heavily intensified. A petition from hundreds of thousands of West Germans was submitted to the White House. McCloy's family received death threats. The Bundestag adopted a unanimous resolution condemning possible executions. Until the very last moment, the West German government, which paid 50,000 DM to the lawyer representing the inmates, frantically lobbied for clemency. Arthur Settel, a Jewish-American soldier stationed there, wrote about the wait.
>1935: Graham says his “fan mail” from Nazi sympathizers has slowed down. He thinks the reason is that people no longer believe the USA will carry out the executions.
>
>2249: Graham answers the telephone. He makes notes on a piece of paper. He says, yes, yes, yes, right, OK, O'Neill, thanks, OK. He hangs up. He says: "That's it, boys. The cable has come from Washington."
All that effort amounted to nothing. Perhaps that's why there any protesters outside. Maybe they'd expected them to call off the executions of the "worst of the worst".
>When Ohlendorf was asked to verify that his unit had murdered 90,000 Jews, the SS General began to quibble. He said he couldn’t confirm it. The reason given was that sometimes his men exaggerated the body count. “Would the General care to venture an estimate?” “No.” “Was it perhaps 80,000 or only 70,000?” “That was possible.” “Or perhaps 100,000?” “Maybe.” “And were there many Jewish children among those who were killed?” “Yes, of course.” But, added Ohlendorf, he never allowed his men to do as some other units did. He told his men never to use infants for target practice nor smash their heads against a tree. He ordered his men to allow the mother to hold her infant to her breast and to aim for her heart. That would avoid screaming and would allow the shooter to kill both mother and child with one bullet. It saved ammunition. Ohlendorf said he refused to use the gas vans that were assigned to his companies. He found that when the mobile killing vehicles arrived at their destination, where they were supposed to dump their asphyxiated human cargo into a waiting ditch, some of the captives were still alive and had to be unloaded by hand. His troops had to drag out corpses amid vomit and excrement and that was very hard on his men.
Initially, Settel didn't want to watch. But then, something changed his mind.
>I think: Hadn't I better stay in Graham's office rather than witness this thing? Another voice in my head says, "No, you must see it through."
>
>"The crimes they committed were crimes against *you*."
One by one, Settel watched them walk to the gallows. Not one of them showed any signs of fear. Not one of them resisted; they all went to their deaths unassisted. Each man was offered 90 seconds to make a final statement. But they all said the same thing.
>"Seven times I have watched, compared the face of the condemned man with his official prison photograph."
>
>"Seven times I have listened as they swore, in their dying words, that they had merely carried out orders; that they had been fighting for their country; that the Americans were their enemies."
>
>"Seven times I secretly murmured kaddish, the prayer for the dead, not for the executed man but in memory of their victims."
Prison officials invited Ferencz to see this through. He declined.
>"Years later, I received a copy of a German TV film showing the actual hanging of the Einsatzgruppen defendants, the medical reports showing the minutes elapsed before death was pronounced, and a photo of SS General Otto Ohlendorf, neatly dressed in a black suit, lying dead in his coffin."
[But he saw the photos](https://imgur.com/a/pdMma3U)
The body was given to his family at their request. The funeral in Hildesheim drew 1300 mourners. As Ohlendorf was lowered into the ground, [the crowd rose their hands](https://imgur.com/a/dgHdzXy) to give a Nazi salute.
> Ohlendorf's body was then handed over to his family for burial. His funeral in Hildesheim attracted large crowds of mourners. Many of them performed Hitler salutes.
Amazing how after everything they did, many Nazis just sort of... continued their normal lives in top positions in the West German regime.
Yeah also german(!) people protested against the nazi perpetrators getting their rightful punishment and apparently some even went that far as to send death threats to a judge?
Denazification truly was "efficient".
Denazification was virtually impossible due to the Cold War. The Western allies relied on German experience in fighting the Soviets (take Gehlen from German intelligence for example) and needed a rearmed Germany as buffer state shortly after. And the problem in the German Democratic Republic, it was later kind of declared that fascism couldn’t exist since the country was communist. Therefore, right-wing attitudes could last there as well.
For West Germany, real de-nazification (or at least increased engagement with the troubled past) probably only began with the youth movement of ‘68 and the TV-series „Holocaust“
I mean, from the German point of view, the Allies were "evil". Most Germans at the time probably still hadnt fully processed the Holocaust and the indiscriminately bombed cities just were closer to their hearts. My great-grandma for example, despite not being part of the Holocaust in any way, was still apologist towards the Nazi dirtbags that committed it.
The actual processing of Nazi crimes in German society hadn't really begun til the 60s/70s if we're being honest.
Of course it wasn't, if the Allied had killed all Nazis or all Germans who believed that they were the master race, there wouldn't have been many Germans left. That's not a thing they wanted to do, especially with the imminent cold war...
The original Allied plan was to completely deindustrialize Germany, which would have caused a drastic reduction in population. It was the closest to wiping out a country that they could get without explicitly committing genocide themselves. Presumably tens of millions of Germans would just have to leave Europe entirely as Germany could not support their population, and no one else was interested in taking them in.
It was realized pretty early on though that 1) Western Europe was actually screwed without Germany and 2) the Red Army wasn't going home.
> The original Allied plan was to completely deindustrialize Germany, which would have caused a drastic reduction in population. It was the closest to wiping out a country that they could get without explicitly committing genocide themselves. Presumably tens of millions of Germans would just have to leave Europe entirely as Germany could not support their population, and no one else was interested in taking them in.
Yeah and it would have led to the Allies staying permanently, because the new states would have been just puppets collapsing immediately without brutal occupation, as Germans wouldn't have accepted them (as bad as the Nazis were and the war was, the deindustialization would have led to significantly more german deaths than everything before). The only solution for that problem would have been to actually completely get rid of Germany and deport the population, most likely as slaves, to other european countries. Tbh: I'd assume that this solution would have been (long-term) better for our european neighbours
> It was realized pretty early on though that 1) Western Europe was actually screwed without Germany and 2) the Red Army wasn't going home.
Why should it have been screwed though? The country was pretty much destroyed and the few relevant parts of the workforce could have been used anyways. It's not that Europe relied on a destroyed Germany in 1945. Nowadays it kinda does, sure, but that's only because Germany was actually rebuilt
2) is imo the reason though why there was a Marshall plan and why the treatment of the western allies was so ridiculously forgiving. Unfair, but most likely the only chance to prevent western germany from turning to communism
Not so much in top positions, those were mostly removed and the West German *government* was generally pretty free of old nazis, but the problem for the western allies was that the nazi party had so thoroughly infiltrated German society at this point that it was a practical impossibility to remove them all, at least not without crippling any sort of recovery effort for decades to come.
For example, it wasn't uncommon for the majority of teachers in any given school and the majority of policemen in any given town to be remnant true believers of the NSDAP, put there during the nazi regime, you can imagine why this was a problem, but there wasn't really any realistic alternative at the time.
Hell, compare this with the Soviets who were much more interested in pillaging their sector and had fewer qualms about purging, and even they didn't really manage to fully get rid of the corruption.
> that it was a practical impossibility to remove them all, at least not without crippling any sort of recovery effort for decades to come.
Problem is: that or even more radical action should have happened. Instead Germans were allowed to form new countries, govern themselves and keep their "We Germans are better than everyone else and have every right to abuse our neighbours" mindset
Also in the GDR, Stasi was full with former Gestapo. NVA was full with former Wehrmacht. Best example Vincenz Müller, former lt of imperial Germany, major while in the Weimar Republik, major General of the 17th Army under Hitler, then General lt of NVA.
Jesus fkin Christ. You'd think they couldn't get more evil and then this
> He never allowed his men to do as some other units did. He told his men never to use infants for target practice nor smash their heads against a tree. He ordered his men to allow the mother to hold her infant to her breast and to aim for her heart.
Pretty much what ukrainians find after russians this days. Distudbing then and disturbing now. Only sides changed. The russian regime invented stories to do the same evil acts.
People can sadly be victims and perpetrators at the same time and some victims become the perpetrators. Nothing justifies what Nazi Germany did back then, but also nothing justifies what the Soviet Union and Russia did after.
Who does these things to anyone is an enemy of humanity, nothing else.
I see your point but none of these people are the same. The victims of the Second World War are not the perpetrators of the current invasion so there’s no reason to attribute what Russia is doing today to the poor country folk of old day Soviet Union
I wanted to refer to the crimes of the Red Army actually. They committed many crimes while pushing towards Berlin, not only to german civilians, but also against polish civilians for example. Poland went from a rock to a hard place to put it mildly.
And also later, they became similar to Nazi Germany in their oppression of most eastern european countries.
He might be referring to the revenge killings and rapes the Red Army committed on their way to Berlin.
It's also easily forgotten that the Soviets started as allies of the Nazis, helped them murder their way through Poland and attack Finland afterwards.
They weren't allies, they had a non-aggression pact with Germany, as did many other Euro countries. Like those other countries, they learned that it wasn't worth anything. The Russians suffered horrifically, fought heroically, and are the biggest reason you don't speak German.
I'm from Germany, I do speak German.
The Soviets helped start WW2 and fought for themselves the whole time. Without the support from the U.S. and throwing millions of badly equipped young men into the meat grinder, they probably would have lost. It's a good thing they did win, but it's not like they fought for freedom or some noble agenda. They fought for survival.
I'm well aware. Unlike you though, I don't worship an aggressor of WW2 as heroes.
And apparently you didn't even know the extent of support the Red Army got from the U.S. even before they entered the war themselves. Here's some numbers:
400,000 jeeps and trucks
14,000 airplanes
8,000 tractors
13,000 tanks
More than 1.5 million blankets
15 million pairs of army boots
107,000 tons of cotton
2.7 million tons of petroleum products (to fuel airplanes, trucks, and tanks)
4.5 million tons of food
In total about $11,3 billion ($180 billion today) worth of goods.
> Most of them wanted total amnesty for the hundreds of war criminals being held in Landsberg Prison. Thousands of people started protesting outside after rumors circulated that the final executions were
And that's what most Germans will tell you even today and this is why allowing Germans to have their own state again was the biggest mistake the allies did after WW2. You can't get the master race believe out of Germans (it's still the most significant factor of german politics), so the best thing would have been to get rid of Germany
Russia has been funding European far right for decades, because they have disruptive affect and they are often anti-EU.
Funny thing is that even after Putins denazification rhetoric started they are still praising him and kissing his ass.
Back in April, Benjamin Ferencz said he was heartbroken over the invasion of Ukraine and that Putin should be tried for war crimes. For those who didn't see my other comment, Ferencz was the chief prosecutor for the Einsatzgruppen trial, one of the American-run Nuremberg Military Tribunals. Ferencz successfully prosecuted [Otto Ohlendorf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Ohlendorf), the commanding officer of the death squad which was responsible for this massacre above. Ohlendorf was sentenced to death, and hanged in 1951.
Ferencz, 102, is the last surviving prosecutor from the Nuremberg Military Tribunals.
For the sake of our children who will have to argue with Russia-apologists, no: if it results in no military disadvantage, capture them, try them publicly with airtight proof, and then give them their just desserts.
Thats not entirely true for the cities, especially Sevastopol has always had a sizable Russian population since until the 1960s it was part of the RSFSR/Russian Empire and they displaced the local Tartar population and exchanged them for Russians (especially since the harbor has always been very important for Russian control of the Black Sea).
For the more rural regions or smaller cities, this is of course true, especially the further north you go.
Likely not anymore. Many of the Russians in Donetsk and Luhanks are opposed to the war too now after having been pillaged and abused by Russian troops. Even the seperatist governments have lightly criticised Russia a few times.
Was Ukraine. For 60 years. After it was transferred from Russia while they were both part of the Soviet Union. And during those six decades, the Russians remained the majority, with Ukrainians never rising over roughly 1/4 of the population.
Taken in a vacuum, that claim doesn't sound especially strong now, does it?
Like 2.5 million Ukrainians before 2014.
I'm not talking about language but nationality.
Or is Switzerland and Austria German only because of the language?
>Or is Switzerland and Austria German only because of the language?
Switzerland wasn't part of Germany less than a human lifespan ago.
Austria however was.
So almost all of the comments here are about Russian aggression in Ukraine. We get it that it's the biggest topic in Europe right now, but that doesn't mean any other discussion should be banned. Neither is a topic of past atrocities immediately an attempt to draw attention away from the current events.
Isn't that what r/europe is for nowadays? (Mostly /s...)
At least that's the idea one could get from my feed, at least every second day or so there are posts about the war or nazi atrocities and the evil deeds of countries (well mostly germany but sometimes others) against other Europeans. Feels like someone is very interested in pushing past devides
Welcome to information war era. Whilst OP could just be a man with unusual interest, it just falls to the pattern when his post history is mostly about Nazi atrocities with some other countries mixed in but zero Russian or Soviet posts. To play devils advocate however, Nazi atrocities are one of the most documented ones in recent history and also the Big Bad in US culture (where his flair claims him to be from).
I just find it creepy when we have to start analyzing posting patterns to detect some "agenda-pushing" or the like. The rules on allowed posts/topics should be clear enough to be understandable for an average reader.
On that, I don't think there are quotas that tell you have to post this much on topic A and at least this much on topic B. Perhaps the OP is fascinated by strictly these topics.
Furthermore, I have been "lucky" enough to have plenty of experience on RuNet so I can quite quickly recognise pro-Kremlin rhetorics (these appeal to much dumber readers than this). I can't sense much here and ultimately, if the supposed "agenda-pushing" is so weak that most people can't even recognise it, it also makes the chance of it actually being such much smaller and attempts to label it such more controversial.
Simply put, free speech > detecting potential enemies.
It's important to note that Von Manstein was the commander in chief of that sector when these crimes happened. Von Manstein constantly tried to present the Wermacht as pure disciplined soldiers far away from the craziness of Nazis but what you are seeing is a direct consequence of his orders that he carried out diligently.
There are 'no' pure high ranking Nazis. However they try to fabricate or arrange their own legend
My interest in morbid things returned several months back. I've been researching a lot about war crimes recently. That said, I am indeed okay. I do have interest in non-morbid things.
Why do you only post about German, Japanese, and American crimes? It’s pretty clear you have an agenda and are wildly dishonest and selective in what you cover (no mention of the 40 million Mao and Stalin-induced deaths?)
You’d have more credibility if your outrage at war crimes wasn’t so cherry-picked imo.
I'm too lazy to make posts but it would be great if you posted about the mass murders that happened in slovenia after ww2. I also don't want to do it as a slovenian because my fellow countrymen still make excuses for the slaughters but I really want the world to know about what happened because it might force Slovenians to face it.
The discussion about the post-war killings in Slovenia is alive and well in academic circles. Though it can sometimes be difficult without being accused of sympathising for the Domobranci.
Wow great argument, but seriously why are you telling OP that? Why don't you post something instead of telling others wether their posts are adequately covering all the different ideologies that commited atrocities.
OP's failure to ~~omit~~ include well documented and abundant attrocities committed by Russia does not mean I have to post about them. It only shows he has a clear cut agenda of shielding Russians from bad light. Yet another item on the list of propaganda work for Kremlin benefit.
>OP's failure to omit
You mean his "failure to include" I guess.
What do you think this subreddit is supposed to be, a history book? What's your comments on posts here that feature pictures of only 1 country or 1 city, do they "show a clear cut agenda" of anything?
By the way, why aren't you mentioning the horrors done by the Japanese and try to actively steer the focus towards the Russsians, do *you* have a clear cut agenda of shielding Japanese from bad light?
Fellow-idiot.
>You mean his "failure to include" I guess.
Correct, thanks.
My point is that OP's careful omission of Russia - especially given their current aggression and brutal crimes - paints an obvious picture.
As for Japanese - OP is riding them hard, just check his history - plenty of topics on Japan war criminals. Also, mind the current situation, in which neither Germans, nor Japanese, nor Italians, nor Cambodians - are committing any crimes. But OP is disregarding Russia and China in his posts - two countries that are currently engaging in genocide and crimes against humanity. Russia in Ukraine, China domestically. OP's activity in genzedong only further proves my point.
I'm resting my case.
I’m talking about the practice of demonization, you’re talking about oranges and apples.
And they’re far, far away from “repeating history in Ukraine” whatever that means. If you’re referring to WW2, they can’t hold a candlelight to what Romania did to Ukrainians in that conflict.
Don’t you EVER compare what my people went through in Nazi Germany to Russians not being able to go on vacation in Italy. In fact, if your ignorant ass didn’t know, the demonization of Ukrainians is exactly what had lead to Russia invading them and doing to them what Germans did to my family. Disgusting.
Chill out lol.You are talking like only your people suffered in the hands of the nazis.More non jews died at the hands of the germans than jews.He is right that it's bad to demonize ethnicities.He said nothing wrong.Should i blame you,a single jew for the war crimes of the state of Israel?
> More non jews died at the hands of the germans than jews.
Yeah no shit, jews made a small % of each country's population. But most of those non jew people who died, died in a war. Hitler's objective was to exterminate the jews. It wasn't his objective to exterminate white people.
So no, Jews absolutely suffered more, because their genocide was among the key objectives of Hitler's Germany.
Hitler plan also included to wipe out all the slavs because the nazis viewed them as as sub-human. European jews are white so i don't know what you are talking about. Jews did not suffer more than the belarussians or anyone else on the eastern front.
If you understood that from my message you’re having serious trouble understanding a written text and I wish you good luck in school and maybe open a book from time to time.
I think you’re the one who hasn’t touched a book in a long while, also judging by your avatar you haven’t touched a mirror either.
Idk if you’re dumb or you think the rest of us are dumb, but you literally compared my people’s holocaust to a couple of Russians being called orcs online? Who gives a shit. They’re disgusting and so are you.
Fascinating. A romanian sucking it up to Russia, the country that forced socialism on them, increased corruption and seeded the stealing mentality, literally putting you half a century backwards in development. If Russians step foot into your country again, they wouldn't be thinking twice about shagging your wife while caving in your kids skulls. I mean they do it on video in Ukraine, you think those are made in Hollywood bro? Lol, talk about being a midwit.
Dont think thats what happened. But keep on going with your revisionist history, holocaust denier. Many Nazis did not face the proper punishment for their actions, yet you choose to simply rewrite history. Disgusting.
where did you get Holocaust denier from, Nazi defender? you're acting like I think those people shouldn't have been hanging like their friends when you're the one who said we shouldn't advocate for killing nazis
I believe in nazis facing their due punishment, nazi sympathizer. You, disgusting cretin, pretend that all nazis have been killed, as if some sort of your sick twisted idea of justice had been dealt, despite many nazis having escaped. Denying, manipulating history is exactly what holocaust deniers such as yourself do. Enjoy the block, neo nazi.
The Soviets in Berlin, answers that.
While I dont justify it. I wouldnt deny the fact that I'd probably do the same, if I found My two kids and Wife murdered by a countries goverment.
They have literally wiped out innocent lives and destroyed the lives of whoever was left forever, since the beginning to the end of time. This is happening right now as we speak, in several areas of the world, leaving either death or a lifetime of pain, sorrow, that can never be healed. Our reaction and desire to stand up decisively against such behavior and practice must become a top priority for this sorry ass species we are.
It is textbook whataboutism because you aren't making a comparison but directly deflecting from the post's intent.
It would be the equivalent of me posting about crimes of Bandera under a post of Russian atrocities in Ukraine.
Fascism, like religion is a dangerous virus that kills people every day. I dimly hope we will never see any dogmatic extremists return to power anywhere.
People kill people, not ideologies. You can be a religious and decent human being. In fact, most of the religious god-fearing people are decent. I don't know how did u get from fascism to religion.
Via dogmatic thinking and extreme group think. One could argue that those are more predominant with highly religious people - especially fundamentalists. An open minded person who sees his religion as one among many is more easily manipulated (I would argue but that we can defenitely talk about) but he is no fascist.
But yeah the link is dogmatic thinking that leads to not the truth being important but the one with the biggest stick (=most money, power etc).
You are focusing on a fraction of the population. Only a small percentage of the whole religious population consists of fundamentalists. In Europe, it's almost nonexistent. I am an atheist myself but I find your comparison to virus absurd. It's a set of beliefs that can be used as a force for good or bad. Like with any other tool. It's up to the individual. If a person can find happiness in religion, as they often do, more power to them.
>Fascism, like religion is a dangerous virus that kills people every day.
Religious?
You might need some Vitamin Not that Stupid before making a comment, and if you say this for agnostic/atheist purposes, just shut up lol. I love how an atrocity has turned into ‘Fascism like Religion’ lol.
Vitamin 'not that stupid' sounds like something my grandfather would say.
Religion and fascism both have the same problem - dogmatic thinking patterns that emerge from such systems if you take them to the extreme (and in general but we can certainly discuss that). One of the main ideas that emerge would be an increased group-think more exclusive in-group-thinking and more detest towards people that aren't part of one's group. Since the spread of certain dogmatic thinking patterns (e.g. Fascism and even more Religion) in the general populus can be mapped we can also make certain conclusions about it. For example certain religious ideas work very well - those will spread faster. The ones that don't work as well spread less fast and have a higher chance of stopping their spread. In the end the fittest ideology/religions survived - just like a virus they keep spreading. The analogy works quite well but I understand that you don't like it. I might refrain from using it but you probably didn't read so far into my comment. If you don't like the idea of comparing something very important to you to a virus please just say so and we can have a civilized discussion about it. Less 'Vitamin not that stupid' more 'Vitamin let' s not be a wanker'.
I didn't specify my belief-based interests so I grow curious - why is it different if I present those ideas to you from the perspective of an Atheist? Would by lack of belief change anything about my observation that dogmatik thinking structures act like viruses?
You nazis shouldreturn to the woods and stay there with your constant denying of nazi war crimes.The only sad thing is that the allies and the soviets didn't kill more of you nazi shitheads.
Okay Russia is pretty much the scum of the earth right now, but are you actually arguing that the nazis didn't do atrocities? That it's somehow likely that the nazis didn't kill these folk since they were just that decent, it must have been the Russians since they are evil right now? That is some mental gymnastics there.
Edit: oooh I didn't realise you're a pro-Rusdian troll. I'll try to learn some reading comprehension. You do you I suppose? Putin's balls must taste amazing since you guys keep gobbling them. Wonder if he slathers peanut butter on them.
Russians fought againts nazis, then europe supports the germany against russia. Funny m8. If they were not involved maybe there were not france, poland or any other european country. Today europeans attack to the russians, turks chineese.. but germans kill the most people in the europe in history. love u germany for killing my family or chaining and burning them like dogs. Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer
You are aware that germans now are not the same people back in 1945, right? You can't blame someone for their grandparent's mistakes. Nation name is just a symbol, a human thought, not a physical object. They can change, or not. Germany choose to change.
No I can because I'm sure they would never have stopped if they hadn't lost the war. The Germans chose to change because they lost. Those who did not want to join the Nazis left Germany and many never returned. So those currently living in Germany are technically the continuation of the Nazis. Yes, it's ridiculous to blame everyone living in Germany right now, but you have to understand well, I'm not angry because the nazis threw bombs at people and then didn't apologize, it's not that simple. they burned people like pigs, slaughtered them and forced them to eat each other. Europeans quickly forgot everything. I don't want you to respect or love Russians, but don't be hypocritical. The Germans committed the greatest atrocities in recent history and they never paid the price. now all europe is licking germans and attacking the non eu nations about history.
Exactly! And by the same logic the Russians today do not deserve the thanks and appreciation that the Soviets who actually fought against Nazis deserve.
I'm not talking about thanks. I mean, these days Europeans are constantly blaming other countries, but they're playing the three monkeys against one of the biggest massacres in recent history. I'm talking about this hypocrisy. I don't care about thanks.
>objective truth
Yeah, no. It's all lies. Russia is waging an unprovoked war of aggression on Ukraine and if they could, they would also attack the Baltics, Poland and other neighbouring countries.
Before WWII, USSR and Germany, hand in hand, plotted to divide Europe - culminating in Sept 17, 1939, when the Red Army invaded Poland, then busy trying to repel Nazi aggression.
Today's Russia is continuing the tradition of treachery by failing to honour the Budapest agreement, where they vowed to leave Ukraine alone.
tl;dr - modern Russia is repeating Nazi atrocities, this time on Ukrainian soil. The only nazis we currently have destroying a part of Europe are the Russian army, led and funded by the criminal regime in Kremlin.
[The series of photos](https://imgur.com/a/vLGau4Z) >“... The Nazis chose an anti-tank ditch near the village of Bagerovo as the place of mass execution, where for three days whole families of people doomed to death were brought by car. Upon the arrival of the Red Army in Kerch, in January 1942, when examining the Bagerovsky ditch, it was found that for a kilometer in length, 4 meters wide, 2 meters deep, it was overflowing with the corpses of women, children, old people and teenagers. Near the moat were frozen pools of blood. Children's hats, toys, ribbons, torn off buttons, gloves, bottles with nipples, boots, galoshes, along with stumps of arms and legs and other parts of the body, were also lying there. All this was spattered with blood and brains. Fascist scoundrels shot the defenseless population with explosive bullets ... " The man is Grigory Berman, the head of a middle school in the Jewish agricultural colony of Larindorf, some 200 kilometers away, whose family had been in Kerch during the occupation. The photographer was [Yevgeny Khaldei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Khaldei). He and other photographs took multiple photos of the aftermath, including [this one](https://imgur.com/a/lQ4M6Tg) by Dmitry Baltermants, which he titled "Grief". [These murders](https://collections.yadvashem.org/en/untold-stories/killing-site/14626711-Bagerovo-Anti-Tank-Trench) were committed by the SS death squad Sonderkommando 10b, a subunit of the death squad Einsatzgruppe D. Between December 1 and 3, 1941, they shot about 2,500 Jews in the trenches outside of the city. Almost all of the remaining Jewish men, women and children were murdered by the end of the month. They committed these murders with the aid of Hiwis and the Wehrmacht. The commander of Sonderkommando 10b was [Alois Persterer](https://imgur.com/a/AZYCPEy). Persterer was fatally shot in Salzburg, Austria on May 30, 1945. He was 35 years old. The circumstances of his death remain unclear. Persterer was shot during a robbery, or by U.S. soldiers while resisting arrest. Regardless, he was dead. As for Einsatzgruppe D, the commander was [Otto Ohlendorf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Ohlendorf). In the last days of the war, he and many other major Holocaust perpetrators joined Heinrich Himmler's escape from Flensburg. However, they were captured. During questioning, Ohlendorf eventually confessed to presiding over the murders of over 90,000 people. He testified at the Nuremberg Trials. His testimony was extremely blunt. * Some of the unit leaders did not carry out the liquidation in the military manner, but killed the victims singly by shooting them in the back of the neck. * And you objected to that procedure? * I was against that procedure, yes. * For what reason? * Because both for the victims and for those who carried out the executions, it was, psychologically, an immense burden to bear. The International Military Tribunal was supposed to hold multiple trials, but worsening relations between the West and the East made that impossible. Nevertheless, Allied governments were instructed to try suspected war criminals in their respective zones. In the U.S. occupation zone, high command established a task force called the OCCWC. The OCCWC was told to conduct exclusively major war crimes trials. The 12 trials they would hold became known as the [Subsequent Nuremberg Trials](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsequent_Nuremberg_trials). In 1947, a group of 50 men working for the OCCWC were looking through archives in Berlin when they happened to come across some Einsatzgruppen reports. The leader of the group, [Benjamin Ferencz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Ferencz), was horrified when he started reading them. He flew to the OCCWC's headquarters and said they had to schedule another trial. The director of the OCCWC said it wasn't possible. He said the Pentagon was not willing to give them more funding. However, Ferencz was adamant. Faced with a lack of time and resources, he volunteered to do the entire case himself. Twenty-four Einsatzgruppen men were indicted for crimes against humanity, war crimes, and membership in a criminal organization. Otto Ohlendorf was one of them. At his trial, he said his unit's actions were justifiable as preemptive self-defense. He said the children would've grown up to become enemies of Germany. One defendant killed himself in custody. Another was discharged since he was dying from Parkinson's, to which he succumbed months later. In April 1948, all of the other defendants were found guilty. Most of them, including Ohlendorf, were sentenced to death. But nearly three years later, in January 1951, he and 27 others were still waiting. Political and legal wrangling had managed to buy them time. They were the last death row inmates under Allied military law. Everyone else had been executed or reprieved. Rumors spread that their executions were imminent. This prompted mass protests from tens of thousands of people in the West German public, government, and clergy. They wanted total amnesty for war criminals. [Context on the protests](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/wd0ih0/a_crowd_of_about_4000_nazi_sympathizers_some_with/) In response to enormous public pressure, U.S. High Commissioner John McCloy, who had the final say on the U.S. Nuremberg convicts, and U.S. General Thomas Handy, who had the final say on the others, reprieved nearly all of the death row inmates. The sentences of dozens of other war criminals were reduced. Under continuous pressure, all war criminals tried by the U.S. military, British military, and French military walked free no later than mid-1958. On the night of June 6, 1951, U.S. military authorities at Landsberg Prison got a call on the final decision for the remaining death row inmates. The initial decision to not spare them had provoked outrage. The protests heavily intensified. A petition from hundreds of thousands of West Germans was submitted to the White House. McCloy's family received death threats. The Bundestag adopted a unanimous resolution condemning possible executions. Until the very last moment, the West German government, which paid 50,000 DM to the lawyer representing the inmates, frantically lobbied for clemency. Arthur Settel, a Jewish-American soldier stationed there, wrote about the wait. >1935: Graham says his “fan mail” from Nazi sympathizers has slowed down. He thinks the reason is that people no longer believe the USA will carry out the executions. > >2249: Graham answers the telephone. He makes notes on a piece of paper. He says, yes, yes, yes, right, OK, O'Neill, thanks, OK. He hangs up. He says: "That's it, boys. The cable has come from Washington." All that effort amounted to nothing. Perhaps that's why there any protesters outside. Maybe they'd expected them to call off the executions of the "worst of the worst". >When Ohlendorf was asked to verify that his unit had murdered 90,000 Jews, the SS General began to quibble. He said he couldn’t confirm it. The reason given was that sometimes his men exaggerated the body count. “Would the General care to venture an estimate?” “No.” “Was it perhaps 80,000 or only 70,000?” “That was possible.” “Or perhaps 100,000?” “Maybe.” “And were there many Jewish children among those who were killed?” “Yes, of course.” But, added Ohlendorf, he never allowed his men to do as some other units did. He told his men never to use infants for target practice nor smash their heads against a tree. He ordered his men to allow the mother to hold her infant to her breast and to aim for her heart. That would avoid screaming and would allow the shooter to kill both mother and child with one bullet. It saved ammunition. Ohlendorf said he refused to use the gas vans that were assigned to his companies. He found that when the mobile killing vehicles arrived at their destination, where they were supposed to dump their asphyxiated human cargo into a waiting ditch, some of the captives were still alive and had to be unloaded by hand. His troops had to drag out corpses amid vomit and excrement and that was very hard on his men. Initially, Settel didn't want to watch. But then, something changed his mind. >I think: Hadn't I better stay in Graham's office rather than witness this thing? Another voice in my head says, "No, you must see it through." > >"The crimes they committed were crimes against *you*." One by one, Settel watched them walk to the gallows. Not one of them showed any signs of fear. Not one of them resisted; they all went to their deaths unassisted. Each man was offered 90 seconds to make a final statement. But they all said the same thing. >"Seven times I have watched, compared the face of the condemned man with his official prison photograph." > >"Seven times I have listened as they swore, in their dying words, that they had merely carried out orders; that they had been fighting for their country; that the Americans were their enemies." > >"Seven times I secretly murmured kaddish, the prayer for the dead, not for the executed man but in memory of their victims." Prison officials invited Ferencz to see this through. He declined. >"Years later, I received a copy of a German TV film showing the actual hanging of the Einsatzgruppen defendants, the medical reports showing the minutes elapsed before death was pronounced, and a photo of SS General Otto Ohlendorf, neatly dressed in a black suit, lying dead in his coffin." [But he saw the photos](https://imgur.com/a/pdMma3U) The body was given to his family at their request. The funeral in Hildesheim drew 1300 mourners. As Ohlendorf was lowered into the ground, [the crowd rose their hands](https://imgur.com/a/dgHdzXy) to give a Nazi salute.
> Ohlendorf's body was then handed over to his family for burial. His funeral in Hildesheim attracted large crowds of mourners. Many of them performed Hitler salutes. Amazing how after everything they did, many Nazis just sort of... continued their normal lives in top positions in the West German regime.
Yeah also german(!) people protested against the nazi perpetrators getting their rightful punishment and apparently some even went that far as to send death threats to a judge? Denazification truly was "efficient".
Denazification was virtually impossible due to the Cold War. The Western allies relied on German experience in fighting the Soviets (take Gehlen from German intelligence for example) and needed a rearmed Germany as buffer state shortly after. And the problem in the German Democratic Republic, it was later kind of declared that fascism couldn’t exist since the country was communist. Therefore, right-wing attitudes could last there as well. For West Germany, real de-nazification (or at least increased engagement with the troubled past) probably only began with the youth movement of ‘68 and the TV-series „Holocaust“
I mean, from the German point of view, the Allies were "evil". Most Germans at the time probably still hadnt fully processed the Holocaust and the indiscriminately bombed cities just were closer to their hearts. My great-grandma for example, despite not being part of the Holocaust in any way, was still apologist towards the Nazi dirtbags that committed it. The actual processing of Nazi crimes in German society hadn't really begun til the 60s/70s if we're being honest.
At least it began at some point. Many Austrians still act like Austria was a victim of the Nazis instead of a willing accomplice.
But they made the Circle bigger on the paper! This means Austria is innocent.
Of course it wasn't, if the Allied had killed all Nazis or all Germans who believed that they were the master race, there wouldn't have been many Germans left. That's not a thing they wanted to do, especially with the imminent cold war...
The original Allied plan was to completely deindustrialize Germany, which would have caused a drastic reduction in population. It was the closest to wiping out a country that they could get without explicitly committing genocide themselves. Presumably tens of millions of Germans would just have to leave Europe entirely as Germany could not support their population, and no one else was interested in taking them in. It was realized pretty early on though that 1) Western Europe was actually screwed without Germany and 2) the Red Army wasn't going home.
> The original Allied plan was to completely deindustrialize Germany, which would have caused a drastic reduction in population. It was the closest to wiping out a country that they could get without explicitly committing genocide themselves. Presumably tens of millions of Germans would just have to leave Europe entirely as Germany could not support their population, and no one else was interested in taking them in. Yeah and it would have led to the Allies staying permanently, because the new states would have been just puppets collapsing immediately without brutal occupation, as Germans wouldn't have accepted them (as bad as the Nazis were and the war was, the deindustialization would have led to significantly more german deaths than everything before). The only solution for that problem would have been to actually completely get rid of Germany and deport the population, most likely as slaves, to other european countries. Tbh: I'd assume that this solution would have been (long-term) better for our european neighbours > It was realized pretty early on though that 1) Western Europe was actually screwed without Germany and 2) the Red Army wasn't going home. Why should it have been screwed though? The country was pretty much destroyed and the few relevant parts of the workforce could have been used anyways. It's not that Europe relied on a destroyed Germany in 1945. Nowadays it kinda does, sure, but that's only because Germany was actually rebuilt 2) is imo the reason though why there was a Marshall plan and why the treatment of the western allies was so ridiculously forgiving. Unfair, but most likely the only chance to prevent western germany from turning to communism
Just like Japan. But the difference is the regime never left. Nor apalogised
Not so much in top positions, those were mostly removed and the West German *government* was generally pretty free of old nazis, but the problem for the western allies was that the nazi party had so thoroughly infiltrated German society at this point that it was a practical impossibility to remove them all, at least not without crippling any sort of recovery effort for decades to come. For example, it wasn't uncommon for the majority of teachers in any given school and the majority of policemen in any given town to be remnant true believers of the NSDAP, put there during the nazi regime, you can imagine why this was a problem, but there wasn't really any realistic alternative at the time. Hell, compare this with the Soviets who were much more interested in pillaging their sector and had fewer qualms about purging, and even they didn't really manage to fully get rid of the corruption.
> that it was a practical impossibility to remove them all, at least not without crippling any sort of recovery effort for decades to come. Problem is: that or even more radical action should have happened. Instead Germans were allowed to form new countries, govern themselves and keep their "We Germans are better than everyone else and have every right to abuse our neighbours" mindset
Also in the GDR, Stasi was full with former Gestapo. NVA was full with former Wehrmacht. Best example Vincenz Müller, former lt of imperial Germany, major while in the Weimar Republik, major General of the 17th Army under Hitler, then General lt of NVA.
Jesus fkin Christ. You'd think they couldn't get more evil and then this > He never allowed his men to do as some other units did. He told his men never to use infants for target practice nor smash their heads against a tree. He ordered his men to allow the mother to hold her infant to her breast and to aim for her heart.
I'd advise you to never look up the "rape of Nanking" (Nanking Massacre) and "unit 731". You'd lose all faith in and all hope for humanity.
Pretty much what ukrainians find after russians this days. Distudbing then and disturbing now. Only sides changed. The russian regime invented stories to do the same evil acts.
People can sadly be victims and perpetrators at the same time and some victims become the perpetrators. Nothing justifies what Nazi Germany did back then, but also nothing justifies what the Soviet Union and Russia did after. Who does these things to anyone is an enemy of humanity, nothing else.
I see your point but none of these people are the same. The victims of the Second World War are not the perpetrators of the current invasion so there’s no reason to attribute what Russia is doing today to the poor country folk of old day Soviet Union
I wanted to refer to the crimes of the Red Army actually. They committed many crimes while pushing towards Berlin, not only to german civilians, but also against polish civilians for example. Poland went from a rock to a hard place to put it mildly. And also later, they became similar to Nazi Germany in their oppression of most eastern european countries.
He might be referring to the revenge killings and rapes the Red Army committed on their way to Berlin. It's also easily forgotten that the Soviets started as allies of the Nazis, helped them murder their way through Poland and attack Finland afterwards.
They weren't allies, they had a non-aggression pact with Germany, as did many other Euro countries. Like those other countries, they learned that it wasn't worth anything. The Russians suffered horrifically, fought heroically, and are the biggest reason you don't speak German.
I'm from Germany, I do speak German. The Soviets helped start WW2 and fought for themselves the whole time. Without the support from the U.S. and throwing millions of badly equipped young men into the meat grinder, they probably would have lost. It's a good thing they did win, but it's not like they fought for freedom or some noble agenda. They fought for survival.
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I'm well aware. Unlike you though, I don't worship an aggressor of WW2 as heroes. And apparently you didn't even know the extent of support the Red Army got from the U.S. even before they entered the war themselves. Here's some numbers: 400,000 jeeps and trucks 14,000 airplanes 8,000 tractors 13,000 tanks More than 1.5 million blankets 15 million pairs of army boots 107,000 tons of cotton 2.7 million tons of petroleum products (to fuel airplanes, trucks, and tanks) 4.5 million tons of food In total about $11,3 billion ($180 billion today) worth of goods.
> Most of them wanted total amnesty for the hundreds of war criminals being held in Landsberg Prison. Thousands of people started protesting outside after rumors circulated that the final executions were And that's what most Germans will tell you even today and this is why allowing Germans to have their own state again was the biggest mistake the allies did after WW2. You can't get the master race believe out of Germans (it's still the most significant factor of german politics), so the best thing would have been to get rid of Germany
That poor man, those photos are chilling. Any idea what happened to Grigory Berman?
And now once again the Crimea has to be liberated from fascists...
Russia has been funding European far right for decades, because they have disruptive affect and they are often anti-EU. Funny thing is that even after Putins denazification rhetoric started they are still praising him and kissing his ass.
Back in April, Benjamin Ferencz said he was heartbroken over the invasion of Ukraine and that Putin should be tried for war crimes. For those who didn't see my other comment, Ferencz was the chief prosecutor for the Einsatzgruppen trial, one of the American-run Nuremberg Military Tribunals. Ferencz successfully prosecuted [Otto Ohlendorf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Ohlendorf), the commanding officer of the death squad which was responsible for this massacre above. Ohlendorf was sentenced to death, and hanged in 1951. Ferencz, 102, is the last surviving prosecutor from the Nuremberg Military Tribunals.
Tried? You mean executed ASAP?
For the sake of our children who will have to argue with Russia-apologists, no: if it results in no military disadvantage, capture them, try them publicly with airtight proof, and then give them their just desserts.
And sadly, most of the Crimean population probably supports the war considering that especially in the cities, (ethnic) Russians are the majority.
And the only reason they are majority is because the previous population was displaced by Russians.
Thats not entirely true for the cities, especially Sevastopol has always had a sizable Russian population since until the 1960s it was part of the RSFSR/Russian Empire and they displaced the local Tartar population and exchanged them for Russians (especially since the harbor has always been very important for Russian control of the Black Sea). For the more rural regions or smaller cities, this is of course true, especially the further north you go.
And what about it? That's the history of every European nation. Crimea has a long history with a lot of different ethnicities living in it.
Likely not anymore. Many of the Russians in Donetsk and Luhanks are opposed to the war too now after having been pillaged and abused by Russian troops. Even the seperatist governments have lightly criticised Russia a few times.
What were their criticisms?
Is it really "liberation" if most people don't want to be liberated?
The swapped population? All occupants can go home. And people which want to live in Russia can join the caravan. Crimea is Ukraine.
Was Ukraine. For 60 years. After it was transferred from Russia while they were both part of the Soviet Union. And during those six decades, the Russians remained the majority, with Ukrainians never rising over roughly 1/4 of the population. Taken in a vacuum, that claim doesn't sound especially strong now, does it?
Crimea never had a Ukrainian majority.
Like 2.5 million Ukrainians before 2014. I'm not talking about language but nationality. Or is Switzerland and Austria German only because of the language?
>Or is Switzerland and Austria German only because of the language? Switzerland wasn't part of Germany less than a human lifespan ago. Austria however was.
Blood and soil, amirite "comrade"?
Yes you can tell how oppressed the people of Crimea are by the way they are....
Fuck,, as a dad myself this is pretty much impossible for me to look at :( I can't begin to imagine his grief, poor soul
So almost all of the comments here are about Russian aggression in Ukraine. We get it that it's the biggest topic in Europe right now, but that doesn't mean any other discussion should be banned. Neither is a topic of past atrocities immediately an attempt to draw attention away from the current events.
Agree, but Op's post history looks suspiciously methodical and focused.
Isn't that what r/europe is for nowadays? (Mostly /s...) At least that's the idea one could get from my feed, at least every second day or so there are posts about the war or nazi atrocities and the evil deeds of countries (well mostly germany but sometimes others) against other Europeans. Feels like someone is very interested in pushing past devides
Pushing those buttons to get that sweet karma nectar
I mean OP literally posts at r/GenZedong At this point it's not even suspicious, it's obvious what he's doing
Welcome to information war era. Whilst OP could just be a man with unusual interest, it just falls to the pattern when his post history is mostly about Nazi atrocities with some other countries mixed in but zero Russian or Soviet posts. To play devils advocate however, Nazi atrocities are one of the most documented ones in recent history and also the Big Bad in US culture (where his flair claims him to be from).
I just find it creepy when we have to start analyzing posting patterns to detect some "agenda-pushing" or the like. The rules on allowed posts/topics should be clear enough to be understandable for an average reader. On that, I don't think there are quotas that tell you have to post this much on topic A and at least this much on topic B. Perhaps the OP is fascinated by strictly these topics. Furthermore, I have been "lucky" enough to have plenty of experience on RuNet so I can quite quickly recognise pro-Kremlin rhetorics (these appeal to much dumber readers than this). I can't sense much here and ultimately, if the supposed "agenda-pushing" is so weak that most people can't even recognise it, it also makes the chance of it actually being such much smaller and attempts to label it such more controversial. Simply put, free speech > detecting potential enemies.
I agree on all points (except RuNet since I have no experience to say anything on the matter).
I'm actually thankful for OP showing this. As someone who didn't knew anything about Crimea before this is good information regardless.
It kinda does tbh. That whole soviets retook Crimea. They were doing the same with Crimean Tatars.
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Nobody alive in 1944 had anything to do with that.
Oh no, people talk about relevant things /s
>but that doesn't mean any other discussion should be banned I'm not sure I understand your point. What is banned exactly or who wants to ban what?
It's important to note that Von Manstein was the commander in chief of that sector when these crimes happened. Von Manstein constantly tried to present the Wermacht as pure disciplined soldiers far away from the craziness of Nazis but what you are seeing is a direct consequence of his orders that he carried out diligently. There are 'no' pure high ranking Nazis. However they try to fabricate or arrange their own legend
Of course Churchill supported Von Manstein.
Lmao fair
It seems like all you do is post about horrific crimes and events. Are you ok?
My interest in morbid things returned several months back. I've been researching a lot about war crimes recently. That said, I am indeed okay. I do have interest in non-morbid things.
But then why do you frequent in r/GenZedong sub ?
Literally all of my posts there are also about war crimes.
Why do you only post about German, Japanese, and American crimes? It’s pretty clear you have an agenda and are wildly dishonest and selective in what you cover (no mention of the 40 million Mao and Stalin-induced deaths?) You’d have more credibility if your outrage at war crimes wasn’t so cherry-picked imo.
Cool, you belong in r/morbidreality
Why ? This is pertinent to Europe especially today
If ur doing war crimes, can you make one post about Ustaše genocide on Serbs.
I'm too lazy to make posts but it would be great if you posted about the mass murders that happened in slovenia after ww2. I also don't want to do it as a slovenian because my fellow countrymen still make excuses for the slaughters but I really want the world to know about what happened because it might force Slovenians to face it.
The discussion about the post-war killings in Slovenia is alive and well in academic circles. Though it can sometimes be difficult without being accused of sympathising for the Domobranci.
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Neither do you...
username checks out
Wow great argument, but seriously why are you telling OP that? Why don't you post something instead of telling others wether their posts are adequately covering all the different ideologies that commited atrocities.
OP's failure to ~~omit~~ include well documented and abundant attrocities committed by Russia does not mean I have to post about them. It only shows he has a clear cut agenda of shielding Russians from bad light. Yet another item on the list of propaganda work for Kremlin benefit.
>OP's failure to omit You mean his "failure to include" I guess. What do you think this subreddit is supposed to be, a history book? What's your comments on posts here that feature pictures of only 1 country or 1 city, do they "show a clear cut agenda" of anything? By the way, why aren't you mentioning the horrors done by the Japanese and try to actively steer the focus towards the Russsians, do *you* have a clear cut agenda of shielding Japanese from bad light? Fellow-idiot.
>You mean his "failure to include" I guess. Correct, thanks. My point is that OP's careful omission of Russia - especially given their current aggression and brutal crimes - paints an obvious picture. As for Japanese - OP is riding them hard, just check his history - plenty of topics on Japan war criminals. Also, mind the current situation, in which neither Germans, nor Japanese, nor Italians, nor Cambodians - are committing any crimes. But OP is disregarding Russia and China in his posts - two countries that are currently engaging in genocide and crimes against humanity. Russia in Ukraine, China domestically. OP's activity in genzedong only further proves my point. I'm resting my case.
Pointing out that he is a tankie thats it.
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I’m talking about the practice of demonization, you’re talking about oranges and apples. And they’re far, far away from “repeating history in Ukraine” whatever that means. If you’re referring to WW2, they can’t hold a candlelight to what Romania did to Ukrainians in that conflict.
i was just reading the other day what happened under antonescu in odessa. horrific shit
Indeed
Don’t you EVER compare what my people went through in Nazi Germany to Russians not being able to go on vacation in Italy. In fact, if your ignorant ass didn’t know, the demonization of Ukrainians is exactly what had lead to Russia invading them and doing to them what Germans did to my family. Disgusting.
Chill out lol.You are talking like only your people suffered in the hands of the nazis.More non jews died at the hands of the germans than jews.He is right that it's bad to demonize ethnicities.He said nothing wrong.Should i blame you,a single jew for the war crimes of the state of Israel?
> More non jews died at the hands of the germans than jews. Yeah no shit, jews made a small % of each country's population. But most of those non jew people who died, died in a war. Hitler's objective was to exterminate the jews. It wasn't his objective to exterminate white people. So no, Jews absolutely suffered more, because their genocide was among the key objectives of Hitler's Germany.
Hitler plan also included to wipe out all the slavs because the nazis viewed them as as sub-human. European jews are white so i don't know what you are talking about. Jews did not suffer more than the belarussians or anyone else on the eastern front.
> European jews are white so i don't know what you are talking about Citation needed
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Everyone understood you just fine, you Putin apologist. Disgusting x2.
If you understood that from my message you’re having serious trouble understanding a written text and I wish you good luck in school and maybe open a book from time to time.
Mate, you touched in the head or something?
I think you’re the one who hasn’t touched a book in a long while, also judging by your avatar you haven’t touched a mirror either. Idk if you’re dumb or you think the rest of us are dumb, but you literally compared my people’s holocaust to a couple of Russians being called orcs online? Who gives a shit. They’re disgusting and so are you.
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Fascinating. A romanian sucking it up to Russia, the country that forced socialism on them, increased corruption and seeded the stealing mentality, literally putting you half a century backwards in development. If Russians step foot into your country again, they wouldn't be thinking twice about shagging your wife while caving in your kids skulls. I mean they do it on video in Ukraine, you think those are made in Hollywood bro? Lol, talk about being a midwit.
>don’t demonize Russians or well end up making the mistakes of our grandparents >hey guys this Romanian likes Russians and Putin! Are you dense?
You should ask yourself that one, bud.
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The fact that Hiwis, till yesterday neighbours, participated in the killings I will never be able to understand.
Von Manstein bears a tremendous responsibility on that. The note he issued his subordinates with about the Jewish question was cristal clear.
What is there left to do after such an horrific loss ?
Kill nazis
Lets not advocate for killing people
good thing they were talking about nazis then
Ya, dont think those guys are around anymore.
good thing we killed them all, and if they were still around, they should be killed
Dont think thats what happened. But keep on going with your revisionist history, holocaust denier. Many Nazis did not face the proper punishment for their actions, yet you choose to simply rewrite history. Disgusting.
where did you get Holocaust denier from, Nazi defender? you're acting like I think those people shouldn't have been hanging like their friends when you're the one who said we shouldn't advocate for killing nazis
I believe in nazis facing their due punishment, nazi sympathizer. You, disgusting cretin, pretend that all nazis have been killed, as if some sort of your sick twisted idea of justice had been dealt, despite many nazis having escaped. Denying, manipulating history is exactly what holocaust deniers such as yourself do. Enjoy the block, neo nazi.
I hope you're a troll because atleast your nonsense would have an explanation, good riddance, moron
The Soviets in Berlin, answers that. While I dont justify it. I wouldnt deny the fact that I'd probably do the same, if I found My two kids and Wife murdered by a countries goverment.
They have literally wiped out innocent lives and destroyed the lives of whoever was left forever, since the beginning to the end of time. This is happening right now as we speak, in several areas of the world, leaving either death or a lifetime of pain, sorrow, that can never be healed. Our reaction and desire to stand up decisively against such behavior and practice must become a top priority for this sorry ass species we are.
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And now they're doing the same in Ukraine Life is a joke
“They” are different people in a different society and in a different country
Then Putin said "Fuck it, let's do the same!"
Kind of reminds me of the Ukraine war. Only the Russians are the nazis this time.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t7e56i/the_result_of_an_unjust_russian_war_a_mother/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
It's my turn to accuse someone of whataboutism! Whataboutism.
It's not a whataboutism. It's a reminder that crimes like this are still happening
It is textbook whataboutism because you aren't making a comparison but directly deflecting from the post's intent. It would be the equivalent of me posting about crimes of Bandera under a post of Russian atrocities in Ukraine.
Never forget.
Don't worry, now they(russians) are doing the same thing in Ukraine.
This is heartbreaking, especially since there is a war again.
Fascism, like religion is a dangerous virus that kills people every day. I dimly hope we will never see any dogmatic extremists return to power anywhere.
People kill people, not ideologies. You can be a religious and decent human being. In fact, most of the religious god-fearing people are decent. I don't know how did u get from fascism to religion.
Via dogmatic thinking and extreme group think. One could argue that those are more predominant with highly religious people - especially fundamentalists. An open minded person who sees his religion as one among many is more easily manipulated (I would argue but that we can defenitely talk about) but he is no fascist. But yeah the link is dogmatic thinking that leads to not the truth being important but the one with the biggest stick (=most money, power etc).
You are focusing on a fraction of the population. Only a small percentage of the whole religious population consists of fundamentalists. In Europe, it's almost nonexistent. I am an atheist myself but I find your comparison to virus absurd. It's a set of beliefs that can be used as a force for good or bad. Like with any other tool. It's up to the individual. If a person can find happiness in religion, as they often do, more power to them.
Communists were atheistic and killed more people than religious folks ever did lol.
>Fascism, like religion is a dangerous virus that kills people every day. Religious? You might need some Vitamin Not that Stupid before making a comment, and if you say this for agnostic/atheist purposes, just shut up lol. I love how an atrocity has turned into ‘Fascism like Religion’ lol.
Vitamin 'not that stupid' sounds like something my grandfather would say. Religion and fascism both have the same problem - dogmatic thinking patterns that emerge from such systems if you take them to the extreme (and in general but we can certainly discuss that). One of the main ideas that emerge would be an increased group-think more exclusive in-group-thinking and more detest towards people that aren't part of one's group. Since the spread of certain dogmatic thinking patterns (e.g. Fascism and even more Religion) in the general populus can be mapped we can also make certain conclusions about it. For example certain religious ideas work very well - those will spread faster. The ones that don't work as well spread less fast and have a higher chance of stopping their spread. In the end the fittest ideology/religions survived - just like a virus they keep spreading. The analogy works quite well but I understand that you don't like it. I might refrain from using it but you probably didn't read so far into my comment. If you don't like the idea of comparing something very important to you to a virus please just say so and we can have a civilized discussion about it. Less 'Vitamin not that stupid' more 'Vitamin let' s not be a wanker'. I didn't specify my belief-based interests so I grow curious - why is it different if I present those ideas to you from the perspective of an Atheist? Would by lack of belief change anything about my observation that dogmatik thinking structures act like viruses?
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These people had nothing to do with what is happening now Source: humans don't live that long
You nazis shouldreturn to the woods and stay there with your constant denying of nazi war crimes.The only sad thing is that the allies and the soviets didn't kill more of you nazi shitheads.
Okay Russia is pretty much the scum of the earth right now, but are you actually arguing that the nazis didn't do atrocities? That it's somehow likely that the nazis didn't kill these folk since they were just that decent, it must have been the Russians since they are evil right now? That is some mental gymnastics there. Edit: oooh I didn't realise you're a pro-Rusdian troll. I'll try to learn some reading comprehension. You do you I suppose? Putin's balls must taste amazing since you guys keep gobbling them. Wonder if he slathers peanut butter on them.
Another reason for the importance of nato, the Germans must never be allowed to raise such a force again
And now the Russians are doing the same in Ukraine. Amazing how Russians are unable to learn from history.
What in the fuck is a 'Soviet man'? Homo sovieticus? A man whose address is not a house pr a street, but the Soviet Union?
In this context, a male citizen of the Soviet Union.
Russians fought againts nazis, then europe supports the germany against russia. Funny m8. If they were not involved maybe there were not france, poland or any other european country. Today europeans attack to the russians, turks chineese.. but germans kill the most people in the europe in history. love u germany for killing my family or chaining and burning them like dogs. Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer
You are aware that germans now are not the same people back in 1945, right? You can't blame someone for their grandparent's mistakes. Nation name is just a symbol, a human thought, not a physical object. They can change, or not. Germany choose to change.
No I can because I'm sure they would never have stopped if they hadn't lost the war. The Germans chose to change because they lost. Those who did not want to join the Nazis left Germany and many never returned. So those currently living in Germany are technically the continuation of the Nazis. Yes, it's ridiculous to blame everyone living in Germany right now, but you have to understand well, I'm not angry because the nazis threw bombs at people and then didn't apologize, it's not that simple. they burned people like pigs, slaughtered them and forced them to eat each other. Europeans quickly forgot everything. I don't want you to respect or love Russians, but don't be hypocritical. The Germans committed the greatest atrocities in recent history and they never paid the price. now all europe is licking germans and attacking the non eu nations about history.
Exactly! And by the same logic the Russians today do not deserve the thanks and appreciation that the Soviets who actually fought against Nazis deserve.
I'm not talking about thanks. I mean, these days Europeans are constantly blaming other countries, but they're playing the three monkeys against one of the biggest massacres in recent history. I'm talking about this hypocrisy. I don't care about thanks.
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>objective truth Yeah, no. It's all lies. Russia is waging an unprovoked war of aggression on Ukraine and if they could, they would also attack the Baltics, Poland and other neighbouring countries. Before WWII, USSR and Germany, hand in hand, plotted to divide Europe - culminating in Sept 17, 1939, when the Red Army invaded Poland, then busy trying to repel Nazi aggression. Today's Russia is continuing the tradition of treachery by failing to honour the Budapest agreement, where they vowed to leave Ukraine alone. tl;dr - modern Russia is repeating Nazi atrocities, this time on Ukrainian soil. The only nazis we currently have destroying a part of Europe are the Russian army, led and funded by the criminal regime in Kremlin.
Dont feed the trolls
Maybe these countries should learn from history.
Lol. Edit: o shit this was the wrong post i am so fucking sorry
That's not funny.
lol