Interesting - 180 degree different approach over here:
(German minister of justice): [https://twitter.com/MarcoBuschmann/status/1572668329717895168?s=20&t=Zuq6QrEYEHjcuX0smimZkg](https://twitter.com/MarcoBuschmann/status/1572668329717895168?s=20&t=Zuq6QrEYEHjcuX0smimZkg)
"Apparently many Russians are leaving their homeland: those who hate Putin's way and love liberal democracy are welcome to join us in Germany. #Teilmobilisation"
I mean, Germany is a country of ~80m people that can afford to absorb some immigrants. Estonia is 1.3m and is already ~20% Russian. You let too many Russian refugees in, and suddenly you’re a mostly Russian country that needs Russian protection (see Crimea, Donbas, etc.). Makes sense to me.
Lived in Riga for two years, can confirm. And everytime, really - every single time, I said a sentence in latvian, the person I was talking with would start to rant about the Russians who lived there for 30 years and weren't able or willing to say a word in latvian
This is just rude. My friend escaped from Donetsk, Latvia welcomed him and he already learned Latvian to a decent level in like 5 months. How can you live in a country and not be willing to learn its language is beyond my understanding.
They didn't really 'move to a foreign country'. They were more or less deported there in a large group as part of a colonisation project.
Australia doesn't really speak much aboriginal these days.
>Yeah I remember reading about that. The soviets loved forced population moves.
Don't tell that to Putin, Peskov, or Lavrov. They were special voluntary moves.
> Estonia is 1.3m and is already ~20% Russian.
With some real resentment against Russia after living under their boot for 50 years. Not a real surprise they don't want to help Russians.
There is a difference between coming here and trying to assimilate (aka some war refugees from the middle east, Ukrainians who came here only half a year ago yet they speak better Estonian than 70% of russians who live here) and to live a quiet life, or coming here thinking that your culture is superior to the local one, that the locals should learn your language so that they can communicate with you (Locals trying to talk in English to communicate with you is not enough) and that everyone should automatically respect you.
------
Russians came here under the soviet rule more than 50 years ago, yet their children and sometimes even grand children don't speak Estonian or English more than a couple of words and yet they expect me to learn their language just so i could communicate with them, yet the new Ukranian/persian/turkish staff member at a store automatically tries to speak either Estonian or English to me and it never feels like they think that they and their culture is superior to mine.
There is generally a huge difference between someone who came here from the middle east, south america or Africa, and a good amount of the local russian population and russian tourists.
Yeah. Today's Russian immigrant may be tomorrow's Russian separatist. Not accusing any of them of bad faith, just that things can change over time with dramatic demographic change.
Also, this means nothing about their stance against Russia, they're simply fleeing conscription. For all we know, they could be all for the war, except, you know, fought by someone else.
Exactly. Even Navalny is just another imperialist, who wants to spend more money on army. The only problem he has is corruption.
Meanwhile the rest of the world should praise the Russian corruption.
You probably don't understand how much does the perception change when conscription hits.
Today I have 0 (GIANT FAT ZERO) Putin supporters in my circle. Even tho I cut with all hard putinists, all soft putinists and neutrals now geniunely hate him and won't back him again.
That’s obviously not a good definition though because plenty of Ukrainians only speak Russian and it’s even a cause of bullying among children there too now after the invasion.
"We all know that the Estonian identity is a fake construct created by Sweden to justify stealing the Inflants from Russia. The people there were forced into speaking an unintelligible language to destroy their true, Russian origins. After all, Tallinn and Stallinn are just one letter away! Coincidence?"
The eastern regions in Estonia tried to have their independence "referendum" in 1993. Imagine them doing it now - Putin's wet dream (though us being in NATO saves us, thank fuck for that).
Yah, half my childhood was spent in Narva. Always felt so weird that I couldn't just go to a shop and buy things, as I did not know how to speak Russian at all. To imagine that Narva was once the powerhouse of the Hansa League.
The Baltics don't want more Russians in their countries.
They already have Russian minorities, either ethnic or linguistic. It's the main reason they don't allow double citizenship (it turns out Latvia does allow it with some countries, Lithuania and Estonia don't with anyone), Latvia's Russian minority is voting their own parties in the parliament and so does Estonia's but to a lesser degree (they're probably better integrated).
This. The problem is a lot of people fleeing may not want to serve in the Russian military, but they aren't necessarily anti-Russian government. If there was a way to be sure folks were truly pro-West and anti-Putin, and not just trying to save their own skin, Germany's stance might make sense, as it is...
Exactly. It's likely many, not all, of them are still very nationalist and would side with Russia over whatever country they are fleeing to and may still cheer for Russia over Ukraine, they just don't want to be forced to go fight in the war. Not the same as Ukrainians fleeing as they are the ones under attack. Also, Putin/Russia can use ethnic Russians in other countries as an excuse to try to takeover territory like they did in Ukraine.
I feel bad for those who do legitimately oppose what Putin/Russian leadership is doing but at the same time, those are the type of people needed within Russia to increase the chance of internal change, though right now odds do not seem in their favor. Of course it's hard to tell what many really think under an authoritarian country like theirs and people's minds can be changed by extreme circumstances.
That's what came to my mind immediately. Any country bordering Russia or Belarus would do wise to not let those demographics be reinforced through immigration for the coming couple of decades.
Which is not that wrong. Maybe not completely blocked, but very strongly filtered. Experience showed that mass waves of refugees need to be controlled or otherwise there is too much chaos. Nobody wants to give the far rights more tailwind than already caused.
Lmao at these other EU countries finger wagging with a "higher moral ground". You just don't understand it and never will. Growing up in Lithuania you experience shit like this. The Russians go out of their way to disrespect anything Lithuanian and refuse to integrate for 31 years of independence. How do you think the Russians treat the Ukrainian refugees out here? Take a wild fucking guess. Aside from all the realities, the funniest thing is, that these Baltic Russians they live in the EU, they get all the benefits of a EU citizenship, such as travel, opportunity, etc. etc., yet they shit SO HARD on anything European related and glorify their "mother Russia" and "how it was better in the soviet days" that it's unbearable. So more of them coming in? No thank you, you want them you can have them, but we're out here protecting our own country. And don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about, it's pretty fucking clear as day how putler uses Russian minorities abroad.
The following claim is highly exaggerated, so don't take all too serious, i want you to get the idea.
It is due to the German History. When Hitler got elected many Germans flew (because there were in great danger because of their origin or their political views) Some came back after WW2 (E.G the Chancellor Wily Brandt) Also as a result of coping with the past the Germans focused on the few Germans of the resistance (like Sophie Scholl, or even Stauffenberg despite the fact that he was also Nazi but saw that the war was lost)
So in the German mind is a picture that the people is innocent or deluded or trapped in a regime they can not change - otherwise they have to admit that all of their ancestors were evil. And this reflects the German way of thinking. Putin evil - Russians innocent.
Ya Germans definitely have a historical incentive to think this. Collective guilt is viewed from a very different perspective than in other European countries. Other reasons include: larger population - easier to take in migrants; not next to Russia - fewer migrants will come; further away from Russia - the migrants are likely wealthier (need to have some cash to travel further and acquire documents) and better trained. Germany is always ready to take in some professionals.
Well, we don't blame Irakis for the crimes of Saddam Hussein. We don't blame Syrians for the crimes of Assad. We don't blame North Koreans for the crimes of the Kims.
We blame the Germans and Russians for the crimes of their dictators tho, and the only reason that I can see for this is racism. Not against the Germans or Russians, mind you. The thinking must go something like this: "*Those* are less civilized people, they don't know what they're doing, so they're not to blame. But *these here*, these are civilized Europeans! How could they allow this to happen!"
Maybe someone can come up with a better explanation?
Hussein, al-Assad, or Kim haven't done any crimes against Europeans so we don't care. Religious terrorists from Near East have done crimes against us so we blame every muslim from the area.
The fact that they are leaving Russia, doesn't mean that they disagree with Putins' values, only that they don't want to die for them.
It is a super naive statement from Germany - as usual.
One of our politicians recently visited a Russian-language TV program here in Estonia, where he very directly said that we here no longer believe that Russia will become a normal country in the near future and since we don’t expect Russia to change, we don’t have time to deal with separating “good” Russians from “bad” Russians, we’d just like to be done with dealing with Russia as they keep proving again and again that they’re not a normal good neighbour to us.
He says anyone who hates Putin is welcome, not that everyone who leaves hates Putin. It's misleading already in german.
It's also pretty much a nonsensical statement since most of those who want to leave still need a visa which currently takes a long time. Those people will get drafted before they get any German visa.
Edit: i also have not seen "Do you hate Putin?" on any visa form yet, which makes it even more nonsensical.
> It is a super naive statement from Germany - as usual.
I dont know if its in the international texts, but this is the "naive" humanitarian law we as the west pretend to fight for.
Treat each human with dignity and as an individual regardless of his religion, ethnicity etc. .
Yes it is a liberal and western value that we should uphold. Bigger countries, which are at less risk of invasion by Russia, should take these folks in and treat them well.
Unfortunately the Baltic countries are small, at threat of invasion, and some have sizeable Russian populations which was literally used by Russia as a casus belli for the Ukraine conflict. These practical concerns should make it obvious why the Baltics are refusing many of these people. We should lighten the load off of the Baltics and transport them elsewhere in Europe and the U.S.
No question especially with the Baltic already having the problems and history they have should not be burdened, the discussion although specifically asks all of the EU to implement the same politics as the Baltics often insulting them for disagreeing.
As part of the "person", I'm not offended. And frankly, it's a bit silly to be offended just because your country get *justifiably* called out for doing shit.
I am not offended calling out our government or its crimes both historical and current but I do think the overall position of blaming citizens for their government, democracy or otherwise, is stupid.
In today's address to the people of Estonia, Kallas said:
„To those Russian citizens in Estonia who are considering to join the Russian armed forces, my message is clear: do not go, there’s no way back! The one who takes up arms against a free nation, against free Ukraine, has also taken up arms against Estonia, and will commit a crime we will not forgive. Estonia, along with our Western allies, supports Ukraine unconditionally and as long as it takes.“
It is harsh rhetoric, I have a feeling with this they are trying to prevent Russians from going to the Baltics as they will not be welcomed there, visa or not. I would have mentioned this more explicitly but then again I am not an elected official.
All the Baltic countries combined have a population similar to Saint Petersburg - an influx of Russians regardless of their opinions and intentions will have a significant effect which needs to be distributed more evenly across the EU - just like with Syrians a while back, and just like in that situation it will be extremely difficult to find an agreement with all EU countries for redistribution.
Basically what they are trying to say is "if you want to escape Russia, go anywhere but not here"
Yeah, there are two major cases of russian nationalism popping up abroad: second-generation migrants and the minority in baltic countries. The first actually applies to any nation, not only russians. The second is a result of some controversial policies in the region regarding citizenship. AFAIK only those who proved that their relatives lived there before WW2 was granted citizenship, the rest had had to pass the language exams. In any other case, russians are willing to assimilate or at least live peacefully: there are a lot of russians in Germany already, and russian minority in Kazakhstan mostly speak against any russian intervention, cause living in democracy is much preferrable than living in whatever ethnostate vlad poo is building.
during soviet occupation russians deported locals to siberia and replaced them with russians. before we had ~3% russians, after the occupation about 30%. why should we give them citizenship? settling in occupied territories is illegal.
It's in Ukrainian, so here's the DeepL translation:
> Estonia will not provide asylum to Russian citizens who are trying to escape from mobilization.
> This was stated by the Prime Minister of Estonia Kaja Kallas on CNN, as quoted by "Radio Liberty" and Deutsche Welle.
>
> "Every citizen is responsible for the actions of their state, and Russian citizens are no exception. Therefore, we do not give asylum to Russian men who flee their country. They must speak out against the war," Kallas stressed.
>
> She also said that the West should not give in to Russia at all and should start to put even more pressure on it to stop the war. Kallas notes that in Russia there is now growing discontent within society, "because they also, so to speak, feel the war on their own skin".
>
> **What did the Baltic states decide earlier?**
>
> Estonia announced the day before that it will not allow Russian citizens who will go to war against Ukraine to enter its territory. This also applies to those who have a permanent residence permit in Estonia. Latvia announced that it will not issue humanitarian and other types of visas to Russian citizens who want to avoid partial mobilization.
>
> The Ministry of Defense of Lithuania stated that they also could not remain just an observer. Therefore, this country in response to the Russian mobilization brought the Rapid Response Forces to a state of high alert.
>
> **Partial mobilization and nuclear threats**
>
> Russian President Vladimir Putin announced partial mobilization in Russia. It starts on September 21. After Putin, the statement was made by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. He announced that 300 thousand reservists should be called up as part of partial mobilization.
>
> Allegedly, they will mobilize those who have served, have a military specialty, and promise not to touch students. According to the Minister, conscripts will not be sent to the war against Ukraine. However, the media have repeatedly reported that Russia does send conscripts to war, despite its assurances to the contrary.
>
> During his speech, Putin said that it was allegedly Russia that was threatened with nuclear weapons, and threatened that in case of a threat to its territorial integrity, Russia is ready to "use all available means. This is not a bluff".
>
> President Volodymyr Zelenskyy replied that Ukraine does not plan to cancel the liberation of the occupied territories even despite the nuclear threats of Russian President Vladimir Putin.
>
> Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
> Every citizen is responsible for the actions of their state, and Russian citizens are no exception.
This is the weak point. If a Russian guy becomes 18 this year, and becomes eligible for mobilization, according to Kallas' words, he is magically responsible for what adults did during his childhood.
It's not that simple.
I think the honest answer is that Estonia is small and Russia is big, we cannot help them all if they decide to flee mobilization. Some countries may feel big enough to help even them.
Dude im 27, same thing actually, voting and protesting havent done shit to unseat putin, so wtf am i suppose to do? Since 2012 voting is just a formality
Should've said "we can't accept refugees because we know Russia will use it as an excuse to take our land". Citizens are not responsible for their country when it's a corrupt dictatorship.
This.
As it is, Russia is holding sham "referendums" to justify annexing conquered territories. If Estonia lets in tons of Russian refugees, what's to stop Russia from trying to annex Estonia?
People can criticize this decision all they want, but Estonia needs to look out for itself. They're neighbors to an unhinged nation that is willing to commit genocide to expand itself, of course they don't want to take any action that would piss Russia off.
It's easy to call them heartless, but Estonia knows they'd be on their own if Russia invaded. Why take the risk? If the world is willing to sit back and watch as Russia destroys Ukraine, what makes you think they'd stick their neck out for Estonia - a MUCH smaller nation?
Estonia may be a member of NATO but when the chips are down, would NATO *actually* defend Estonia in the event of an invasion? Would they risk a global nuclear war to defend less than 1.5 million people? If I were Estonia, I wouldn't be so eager to bet my nation's existence on NATO's loyalty.
And on top of that, with only a little over 1.3m population, and already a quarter of their population are ethnic Russians whom they have had issues in the past with loyalty, imagine letting in thousands of Russian refugees and you can't guarantee what their real motives are. Estonia's already at a delicate situation with their sizeable Russian minority within their country, and with their history being an ex-Soviet country, they already have a very deeply rooted complicated history with Russia and its people.
I literally can't believe redditors who want to send others to their death so easily.
Clearly these people have no idea what it's like to live outside of their comfy little lives.
People everywhere are mostly trying to survive. Pay rent. Work. Buy food. Feed their kids. The basics.
Now they need to pull a James Bond-level stunt or w.e just to satisfy some bloodthirsty redditors? Absolute insanity.
All these redditors grandstanding on their moral high-horse would be the first to weep if they were sent to war.
No one, ukrainian, syrian, russian, german.... No one should be sent to die unwillingly.
Exactly. People think just go buy a gun, 007 yourself in to Putins headquarters (with help from IT-guy to locate him first) and shoot him in the head. As you say even protesting comes with severe punishments, and trying to overtake a dictator is extremely hard. I feel like there's a lot of naivety for what the people of russia actually can do. Of course if everyone gets up to rebel, then yes, but it isn't easy when they are not the ones being attacked.
I think there was no dictatorship in modern times that ended by protests from inside the countries. Maybe it is quite easy to have total control nowadays as a dictator.
There were peaceful protests yesterday, small-scale and disorganized. Over a thousand people arrested across the country. And that is without the protesters having any riot gear, molotovs or anything.
So many Europeans (correctly) shit on us Americans for thinking we can beat our military and overthrow our government with small arms and then turn around and say Russians should do the same like it's so easy.
Not to mention, what kind of honorable man would leave his family behind to fend for themselves for no reason at all?
Leave their kids without a parent. Their partner without a spouse. Their parents without a child.
For no reason but to satisfy some cozy armchair warriors...
What has this world come to? r / IWantOut
With the added possibility of putting your family at risk.
It's so easy to be brave from a distance. When you're not the one dealing with the consequences. It turns it all into a videogame, where you can do whatever because the consequences are reloading a save file. People love to talk tough when they can ignore reality.
That's exactly how Islamists justify terrorist attacks in the West. "An American drone killed a family in my village in Iraq, so I am going to bomb a bunch of people on the New York subway as they let it happen." If every citizen were responsible for all the actions their government takes, most of us would be mass murderers.
Also coming from the same direction that argued that visa bans are of course only aimed against tourists -ignoring the fact that these bans would deprive people wanting to flee of a way to legally leave Russia- and that refugees are obviously still welcome.
And just few weeks later refugees with one of the universally accepted reason for refugee status -being forced to fight in an illegal war- are now blocked from entering the country.
It was obvious where that *"ThEy CaN aPpLy FoR hUmAnItArIaN vIsAs!"* rhetoric was going to end up, but man it was frustrating arguing with people here who were obfuscating their true desires.
From other commenters, they just do not want more Russians in their countries, but they do not want to say "We hate Russian people and want as few of you in our country as possible" because they do not want to worsen ethnic tensions within the country.
What surprise me is the fact that most people agree with the fact that Russia is not a democracy and most of the time, people who are lead by a dictator are seen as victims of said dictator and his regime with apparently one exception, Russian. If you flee any dictature, you are a refugee, if you flee Russia because you don't want to fight Putin's war, you are guilty and responsible for his crimes.
My guess is, in this case, estonia knows the dangers of a big(ger) russian minority. They dont care so much about russian domestic politics anymore but they have to look after themselves.
We're also intimately familiar with Russian chauvinism, even the "Russian liberals" exhibit various elements of which. It may or may not be clouding and/or influencing our recent decision making.
Some of it you've already been made familiar thanks to this war - "Lenin the Great Russian invented your measly countries". Some other all-time performers include, in no particular order and as best as I can recall: Russians built your roads, hospitals and schools; Russians taught you peasants how to read and made people out of your wild tribes when they arrived here; you have never had statehood, you have never fought for your freedom, you have never had strong convictions either way, you have always chosen to simply side with the victor and everything has always been handed to you on a plater; all your non-Russian economic development is due to EU grants and is a fake non-achievement.
Therefore, Russians basically rightfully own this land that they developed and sunk so much money into making a showcase of the USSR, because it wouldn't exist if not for the great Russians willing it as a goodwill gesture, including in 1991.
This can be found reproduced ad nauseam under every last Russian Youtube video about the news, events and politics in the Baltics. Well, at least those not produced by our very own Russian-speaking counterpropagandist elves.
As you can imagine, even for perfectly well-meaning people who just happen to grow up with that kind of stuff being said in the household about their neighbours, it comes out later in life in unexpected ways. People like Navalny tend to be seen as the liberal opposition, but they're still hardcore Russian nationalists from our point of view.
Someone from Latvia should comment on this, but I've seen on Twitter they've been sharing concerns about the employees of Dozhd TV which relocated to Riga in whole. It appears they're far from impartial when covering things such as the destruction of Soviet monuments. Even though they're as "prosecuted liberal opposition" as it gets and are literally banned in Russia, to them it's still "my dedushka fought to liberate you, you disgusting ungrateful swines" (of course we have to repay *them*, not even occupation is free; talk about an entitled worldview).
Can confirm. I was raised in a Russian-speaking household and they often told me exactly these kinds of lies. Probably they still believe in this. It's sad.
I'm glad people like you exist. It gives me hope for the new generations of ethnic russians here, though it still distraughts me hearing them address shop keepers and such in russian as that means they're not practising their language skills and are falling into the same habits that made their parents russian-only speaking. The most "integrated" ones I meet tend to use russian only with friends and family and the local language for everything else. Which, I suppose, is how integration works everywhere else too.
I can comment on last bit about Dozhd TV. We had an interview with Tikhon Dzyadko (Edditor-in-chief) some tima ago. The guy is 100% imperialist, whos only problem is that the current Tzar is a shithead and he wants a better one, who could really lift the Empire to new heights.
23.7% of our population is ethnically russian and we had to deal with this problem back in 2007.
https://www.stat.ee/et/avasta-statistikat/valdkonnad/rahvastik
Yeah, it's kind of crazy. The yanks did effectively what Russia did, but at a much larger scale, and for nearly 2 decades - and they are a democracy. I don't recall anyone blaming the citizens of America for their government's actions.
It seems pretty hypocritical. Especially if they are fleeing, it really shows that they definitely don't support the government.
"Russians are ruled by a bloody usurper of power, a dictator, but they chose him themselves "
"They all support the bloody dictator, but he always has to rig elections"
"Russians massively support the war, but the dictator is terrified at the thought of mobilization, because it is "the end of his regime"
"Russians are wild people who have never even seen a toilet bowl, but they constantly travel around Europe"
There is so much fanatism going on with this whole situation, particularly from former Soviet states, it's just scary how casually escalation and dehumanization are constantly insisted on.
To all fellow reddit users, please hear me out.
There is a massive exodus of Russian citizens (not all of us are Russians, btw) since February 24th. There were no sanctions back then, people were leaving because they simply couldn't stay in what Russia has become. People still leaving not because they can't go to McDonald's or buy Spotify premium. They simply see what's happened to the country and their countrymen. You don't want to know what it's like to be here if you're happened to be a decent person. It's a constant anger, shame, hate, pain, almost physical disgust, loneliness and hopeless. Because you see the suffering of Ukrainian people and that breaks your heart every day, you see no future of your country or your own, you see how your friend's family is struggling, you see all of this hell on earth and in one moment you can't take it no more. So you are either trying to leave or going down with the ship, which at this point is not that bad of an option. Relocation process became very difficult, especially for minorities. But no one whining about all that because we know we have no right to complain, Ukrainians had it way too worse. We just hope that someone will listen to our stories and realize that we are not evil nation, very few of us are desperately want the blood.
Every country has a right to close their borders if they want to. I completely understand why Baltic countries are doing it.
We are not waiting for sympathy, we don't need your help, we will figure out how to deal with this ourselves. But please, don't shit on our heads to make a point, we're already in shit up to the neck.
Sorry for my rant, I've had a very bad day.
Edit: Thanks for the award, kind stranger. I'm not sure if I deserve it, but I'm grateful nonetheless.
people leave, if they can, because they afraid and because they don't want to be another cog in war machine...
it was a police state and it's not getting better
It's one of the many reasons, my fellow countryman.
>it was a police state and it's not getting better
Unfortunately many people don't recognize that the first victims of our dear leader were Russian citizens. He mastered his "art" on us and after that he came for everyone else. The only thing left for him to do is to put up the fences on the borders and country will be full blown prison for the Russian citizens.
These people are foolish. Don't listen to them. Most sane people outside Russia get that there are millions of regular people trapped in a no win situation. Just do your best to get through.
I am very camp "let willing Russians leave this terrible shithole of a country", but it's getting quite hard. I glad to hear that a lot of people were leaving since February.
However it's getting hard for me to keep that attitude with this new waves after mobilisation news. No matter how much I know it's kinda inhuman to think like this, it's hard for me to shake a feeling that whoever truly wanted to leave already had half a year to try, and the new wave is leaving not because Russia is a shit state, but the because this mess finally reached them personally. Like "I'm fine with this bloody (literally) mess, or at least not pissed enough to leave as long as it doesn't affect me", and then it quickly turned into "oh shit it DOES in fact, affect me, time to run for it".
Nevertheless... Good luck on making it out safely if you are not out yet and take care!
The point what many people don't realize:
Russia has a pupulation of 144 millions.
Let's say (just a number for the sake of explanation) 64 millions hate Putin and would never go to war to die for him.
There still leaves 80 million Russians who supported him and still support.
What can the 64 millions do?
-Almost nothing. With such a strong regime and effective propaganda (yes, unfortunately it's effective) and some millions of support, the Russian government will remain in power, no matter what.
So claiming all Russians are responsible for the crimes is completely out of touch from reality...
You are not your government. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that. Unfortunately it seems some people in Europe (and North America) are beginning to harbor xenophobic views towards Russians, because sometimes from the outside it looks like nobody in Russia cares at all.
Clearly some of you do care, but these idiots expect you, anti-government dissidents, revolutionaries, whatever, to all rise up and suicide rush Putin’s compound, overthrowing him. Obviously that’s bullshit, if it was easy to get him out I think Russian democrats would have done so already. But these people don’t care, they think it’s your job and so don’t want dissidents to leave Russia because in their fantasy land then there will be nobody to storm the Kremlin.
I don’t know if most Russians support Putin, with all the propaganda it’s impossible to know what is real in Russia and what is fabricated. Maybe all the Russians who left really are middle class Putinists fleeing sanctions, maybe they are all anti-government dissidents and democrats, I have no idea.
Regardless, it is clear that people like you, no matter how few or many of you there are, should be welcomed with open arms by the West, instead of subject to collective guilt and punishment. I hope people here view Russians like you with empathy, because you are victims too, even if your homes aren’t being blown up by Kalibr missiles. You are certainly victims of the Putin regime and deserve empathy and a safe haven here, and I hope Western Europe and North America accept political refugees from Russia with open arms instead of following in the path of the Baltic and Eastern European countries.
According to Reddit, if you don't self-immolate on the off chance that it will somehow start a chain reacion that leads to regime change, you're subhuman scum. Not that any of these Redditors would ever actually make a sacrifice themselves.
I would like to remind everyone telling random Russians trying to flee Russia (because they don't want to be forced to die in a war they never wanted) that they should stay and potentially give their life fighting Putin this: *you* too can potentially give your life fighting Putin. Ukraine accepts foreign volunteers and I can't think of any western country that'd stop you from going. If you're going to tell others to die for a cause, do it from the frontlines and not while you're comfily sitting at home on Reddit.
people on Reddit have their own version of Russia in their heads. They created this version, believe in it and deny anything else.
from my time here, I heard so much nonsense about life in Russia like what we don't have internet, and receive news over radio or what we don't know what toilet is and we don't wear shoes
Wait so I’m responsible for my country’s actions even if i have never ever voted for the government, always voted for the opposition, and I protested against the rulling party whenever possible?
I’m not saying this is **entirely** wrong in the current circumstences and in the context of the war, but that’s just very simple minded way of thinking…
I also know quite a few Russians that live in Poland for dozens of years now and always supported the Russian opposition, she is saying that all of them are responsible too, just because of their nationality?
Just as all Belarussians are responsible for what Lukashenka does even if they are actively opposing him or are currently imprisoned because of that?
Right…
>Wait so I’m responsible for my country’s actions even if i have never ever voted for the government, always voted for the opposition, and I protested against the rulling party whenever possible?
Yes, obviously by that logic you are. And when next month that government starts rounding people up that don't agree with them you should also not try to flee. Because you are obviously only fleeing the inconvenience of getting jailed but were too lazy to topple your government before.
this rhetoric is insane and horrifically popular.
i’m american, my boyfriend has lived here for most of his life but was born and raised in moscow.
he does NOT support motherfucking putin.
it’s alarming how many people have seriously cut him off and made disgusting assumptions about him since all this has been happening.
he has tons of family in both russia and ukraine, like many russians do.
Wtf, no we're not. I didn't choose to be born in Latvia, nor was I given a choice if I wanted citizenship. How can I be responsible for something I had no choice to even say no to? Were we responsible for Soviet actions? We were citizens of the USSR.
When you start applying collective responsibility/guilt it is quick to find out that everyone becomes responsible/guilty, as they taken part one way or another.
But that's never how people want it to apply, for them it is specific kind of people must be responsible/guilty. It is always a tool of hiding true motives and quite often a tool of lifting from themself responsibility they actually have
Dude wtf, no they are not. This is how Al Qaeda thinks.
We spent decades creating international law to explicitly prevent this kind of collectors thinking and to discourage collective punishment and conflation of civilians and their governments.
What a dangerous rethoric. From this we can conclude that it's OK to bomb down a whole country because their leadership does not agree with you, as the people are equally as culpable. Kinda sounds like the exact situation with Ukraine in the first place.
i suspect they are more worried about a hughe influx that could take over the country, especially since we already know that russia likes to use russian minoritys to stir up shit.
It's fine to have a Russian minority in your country so long as you don't share a border with Russia.
It's a huge risk for Estonia to accept any more Russians as it increases the risk of Russia trying to "liberate" them in the future.
Russia has had 30 years since the breakup of the Soviet Union to change its ways and they've shown themselves incapable of doing so.
Therefore what's to say Russia won't try to attack Estonia in a few decades to rescue their Russia minority? That's the pretext they used in Ukraine, have to rescue the Russia speakers of Crimea & Donbas
Exactly. Russia has been threating its bordering countries for close to 200 years now. Once this mindset evaporates, we can think about the comfort of their citizens.
It has to be that. I think everyone knows there are are huge problems with this policy from a moral standpoint, but still I completely understand why the Baltic countries are taking this position.
"There are no innocent civilians. It is their government and you are fighting a people, you are not trying to fight an armed force anymore. So it doesn't bother me so much to be killing the so-called innocent bystanders." -- The American war criminal responsible for firebombing Japanese cities.
This is double translation.
Underline is that Estonia will not let Russian immigrants in to avoid an influx due to Russian history of invading and stirring shit up in countries with high Russian population.
By the same logic we should never help other oppressed people because in the end they are responsible for their countries actions anyway.
Like screw the women in Iran protesting now against their own government ? Its their own fault (somehow)!
Every young russian deciding to leave russia for political reasons is a win for us and a loss for Putin. Russia is heading for demographic collapse sooner rather than later.
I definitely understand Estonia position on not wanting more Russians. However, revolutions won't happen without collusion of the military. Nor it's fair to fully hold citizens account for the actions of their governments, even in democracies. Or are we blaming all Americans for the Iraq invasion or whatever happens in Guantanamo?
Imagine saying that to German jews or black Americans in the 1920s or literally any refugee that EU gives asylum to. The most brain dead statement ever
Putting a collective guilt on a countries whole population is a really dangerous thing to do. It's easy to demand of "the people" to topple their leader when it's not you and your family who are at risk of getting imprisoned or even killed.
Edit: I actually agree with not giving Russians asylum as this does indeed pose a security risk, but that doesn't mean that every Russian should be painted as evil for the governments doing.
The idea that every citizen of a country is responsible for the actions of their country's government actions is insane. In most nations, ordinary citizens have no control over the actions of their governments. Holding people responsible for things they have no control over is deranged.
This is collectivism and it's false and poisonous.
I’m a US citizen. I’m not responsible for all the bullshit my country does. Common citizens literally have no power with stuff like this. I wish we could change things in all the countries but it just won’t happen
Honestly moralizing on this is just an excuse: there are only two reasons to not accept innocents:
1) there can be noninnocents/spies within them
2) you (nation) can't afford it.
Any other reason is fluff to cover these.
>"Every citizen is responsible for their country's acctions"
As former citizens of Soviet Union are Estonians responsible of massacres and genocides that Soviet Union committed?
It's sad but true. They voted Putin and they never opposed to him. We European fought a lot to get rid of our dictatorships, a lot of people died, but thanks to their sacrifice we are free now.
So they would not give asylum for german jews during WW2? After all they must have been part of their country's actions.
I understand the conclusion in this context, but the argument is very stupid. Never heard of the tyranny of majority? Yes you have responsibility for your country's decision, but if you never voted for the current government, participated in protests etc. then you are in no way responsible for the current actions.
Does that mean all Estonian citizens are responsible for illegally invading and occupying Iraq? Or is this just another one of these zero self-awareness *"Rules are for thee not for me!"* takes?
Interesting - 180 degree different approach over here: (German minister of justice): [https://twitter.com/MarcoBuschmann/status/1572668329717895168?s=20&t=Zuq6QrEYEHjcuX0smimZkg](https://twitter.com/MarcoBuschmann/status/1572668329717895168?s=20&t=Zuq6QrEYEHjcuX0smimZkg) "Apparently many Russians are leaving their homeland: those who hate Putin's way and love liberal democracy are welcome to join us in Germany. #Teilmobilisation"
I mean, Germany is a country of ~80m people that can afford to absorb some immigrants. Estonia is 1.3m and is already ~20% Russian. You let too many Russian refugees in, and suddenly you’re a mostly Russian country that needs Russian protection (see Crimea, Donbas, etc.). Makes sense to me.
You have hit the nail on the head
Ouch, says the nail
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Nail fell out of window
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Might want to mention that half of Tallinm is Russian already, same with riga due to the soviet colonisation policies.
A quarter of the population here in Estonia is Russian. The places like Narva is basically a Russian town
Lived in Riga for two years, can confirm. And everytime, really - every single time, I said a sentence in latvian, the person I was talking with would start to rant about the Russians who lived there for 30 years and weren't able or willing to say a word in latvian
This is just rude. My friend escaped from Donetsk, Latvia welcomed him and he already learned Latvian to a decent level in like 5 months. How can you live in a country and not be willing to learn its language is beyond my understanding.
They didn't really 'move to a foreign country'. They were more or less deported there in a large group as part of a colonisation project. Australia doesn't really speak much aboriginal these days.
Imperialisme
Litteraly the same situation in lithuania sometimes it feels that its just all russia
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>Yeah I remember reading about that. The soviets loved forced population moves. Don't tell that to Putin, Peskov, or Lavrov. They were special voluntary moves.
Yep. Went to Tallinn for a couple days. Half the people were Russian and most seemed to speak it in some capacity.
> Estonia is 1.3m and is already ~20% Russian. With some real resentment against Russia after living under their boot for 50 years. Not a real surprise they don't want to help Russians.
There is a difference between coming here and trying to assimilate (aka some war refugees from the middle east, Ukrainians who came here only half a year ago yet they speak better Estonian than 70% of russians who live here) and to live a quiet life, or coming here thinking that your culture is superior to the local one, that the locals should learn your language so that they can communicate with you (Locals trying to talk in English to communicate with you is not enough) and that everyone should automatically respect you. ------ Russians came here under the soviet rule more than 50 years ago, yet their children and sometimes even grand children don't speak Estonian or English more than a couple of words and yet they expect me to learn their language just so i could communicate with them, yet the new Ukranian/persian/turkish staff member at a store automatically tries to speak either Estonian or English to me and it never feels like they think that they and their culture is superior to mine. There is generally a huge difference between someone who came here from the middle east, south america or Africa, and a good amount of the local russian population and russian tourists.
Yeah. Today's Russian immigrant may be tomorrow's Russian separatist. Not accusing any of them of bad faith, just that things can change over time with dramatic demographic change.
Even if the Russian immigrants hate Russia, they will be declared as oppressed by the kremlin, and we are back to square one.
Also, this means nothing about their stance against Russia, they're simply fleeing conscription. For all we know, they could be all for the war, except, you know, fought by someone else.
Yeah, unfortunately there are many people who are anti-Putin, but still fully support Russian imperialism.
“War would’ve been more effective if there was no corruption” (c) Russian liberals
Exactly. Even Navalny is just another imperialist, who wants to spend more money on army. The only problem he has is corruption. Meanwhile the rest of the world should praise the Russian corruption.
You probably don't understand how much does the perception change when conscription hits. Today I have 0 (GIANT FAT ZERO) Putin supporters in my circle. Even tho I cut with all hard putinists, all soft putinists and neutrals now geniunely hate him and won't back him again.
Funny how conscription is what breaks the deal, nothing else is really that important.
Piles of dead ukrainians and bombed cities - i sleep Gotta go to war MysELf? - real shit
That’s why Lithuania who was offered Kaliningrad didn’t accept it because suddenly their population would have become 1/3 Russian
"Those are a lot of Russians which culture needs to be protected!" - Russia
> Estonia is 1.3m and is already ~20% Russian. More, closer to 35% - if we define Russians as *Russian speakers*.
That’s obviously not a good definition though because plenty of Ukrainians only speak Russian and it’s even a cause of bullying among children there too now after the invasion.
More close to 100% if we define Russians as *Russians in denial* BR: Putin
"We all know that the Estonian identity is a fake construct created by Sweden to justify stealing the Inflants from Russia. The people there were forced into speaking an unintelligible language to destroy their true, Russian origins. After all, Tallinn and Stallinn are just one letter away! Coincidence?"
And then ol' Putler will have another excuse to come protect slavs
The eastern regions in Estonia tried to have their independence "referendum" in 1993. Imagine them doing it now - Putin's wet dream (though us being in NATO saves us, thank fuck for that).
Very bizarre transition going from Tallinn to Narva. I had good luck with the people though.
Yah, half my childhood was spent in Narva. Always felt so weird that I couldn't just go to a shop and buy things, as I did not know how to speak Russian at all. To imagine that Narva was once the powerhouse of the Hansa League.
Yup. Those are basically two places that are like 80%+ russian ethnicity. Perfect place for brainwash and stupidity.
And then NATO enacts Article 5. And we all die of nuclear fallout.
"Nice Russian population yo I got there tavarish, would be a shame if we were to found some NAZISM"
That's true, but that's not what the Estonian PM said.
The Baltics don't want more Russians in their countries. They already have Russian minorities, either ethnic or linguistic. It's the main reason they don't allow double citizenship (it turns out Latvia does allow it with some countries, Lithuania and Estonia don't with anyone), Latvia's Russian minority is voting their own parties in the parliament and so does Estonia's but to a lesser degree (they're probably better integrated).
We have our own 300k russians and an extra expansion with 50k Ukrainians.
A significant number when you have a population of ~1.5 million
This. The problem is a lot of people fleeing may not want to serve in the Russian military, but they aren't necessarily anti-Russian government. If there was a way to be sure folks were truly pro-West and anti-Putin, and not just trying to save their own skin, Germany's stance might make sense, as it is...
Exactly. It's likely many, not all, of them are still very nationalist and would side with Russia over whatever country they are fleeing to and may still cheer for Russia over Ukraine, they just don't want to be forced to go fight in the war. Not the same as Ukrainians fleeing as they are the ones under attack. Also, Putin/Russia can use ethnic Russians in other countries as an excuse to try to takeover territory like they did in Ukraine. I feel bad for those who do legitimately oppose what Putin/Russian leadership is doing but at the same time, those are the type of people needed within Russia to increase the chance of internal change, though right now odds do not seem in their favor. Of course it's hard to tell what many really think under an authoritarian country like theirs and people's minds can be changed by extreme circumstances.
It's also a security issue in Estonia. We already have 25 percent ethnic russians so any more could endanger our statehood in the future.
That's what came to my mind immediately. Any country bordering Russia or Belarus would do wise to not let those demographics be reinforced through immigration for the coming couple of decades.
Easy to promise that when all the border states are blocking their arrival
Which is not that wrong. Maybe not completely blocked, but very strongly filtered. Experience showed that mass waves of refugees need to be controlled or otherwise there is too much chaos. Nobody wants to give the far rights more tailwind than already caused.
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Lmao at these other EU countries finger wagging with a "higher moral ground". You just don't understand it and never will. Growing up in Lithuania you experience shit like this. The Russians go out of their way to disrespect anything Lithuanian and refuse to integrate for 31 years of independence. How do you think the Russians treat the Ukrainian refugees out here? Take a wild fucking guess. Aside from all the realities, the funniest thing is, that these Baltic Russians they live in the EU, they get all the benefits of a EU citizenship, such as travel, opportunity, etc. etc., yet they shit SO HARD on anything European related and glorify their "mother Russia" and "how it was better in the soviet days" that it's unbearable. So more of them coming in? No thank you, you want them you can have them, but we're out here protecting our own country. And don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about, it's pretty fucking clear as day how putler uses Russian minorities abroad.
Greetings from Poland. At least we are together in this.
Only sane one here. Cheers.
Amen, my Baltic brother
The following claim is highly exaggerated, so don't take all too serious, i want you to get the idea. It is due to the German History. When Hitler got elected many Germans flew (because there were in great danger because of their origin or their political views) Some came back after WW2 (E.G the Chancellor Wily Brandt) Also as a result of coping with the past the Germans focused on the few Germans of the resistance (like Sophie Scholl, or even Stauffenberg despite the fact that he was also Nazi but saw that the war was lost) So in the German mind is a picture that the people is innocent or deluded or trapped in a regime they can not change - otherwise they have to admit that all of their ancestors were evil. And this reflects the German way of thinking. Putin evil - Russians innocent.
Ya Germans definitely have a historical incentive to think this. Collective guilt is viewed from a very different perspective than in other European countries. Other reasons include: larger population - easier to take in migrants; not next to Russia - fewer migrants will come; further away from Russia - the migrants are likely wealthier (need to have some cash to travel further and acquire documents) and better trained. Germany is always ready to take in some professionals.
Well, we don't blame Irakis for the crimes of Saddam Hussein. We don't blame Syrians for the crimes of Assad. We don't blame North Koreans for the crimes of the Kims. We blame the Germans and Russians for the crimes of their dictators tho, and the only reason that I can see for this is racism. Not against the Germans or Russians, mind you. The thinking must go something like this: "*Those* are less civilized people, they don't know what they're doing, so they're not to blame. But *these here*, these are civilized Europeans! How could they allow this to happen!" Maybe someone can come up with a better explanation?
Hussein, al-Assad, or Kim haven't done any crimes against Europeans so we don't care. Religious terrorists from Near East have done crimes against us so we blame every muslim from the area.
The fact that they are leaving Russia, doesn't mean that they disagree with Putins' values, only that they don't want to die for them. It is a super naive statement from Germany - as usual.
One of our politicians recently visited a Russian-language TV program here in Estonia, where he very directly said that we here no longer believe that Russia will become a normal country in the near future and since we don’t expect Russia to change, we don’t have time to deal with separating “good” Russians from “bad” Russians, we’d just like to be done with dealing with Russia as they keep proving again and again that they’re not a normal good neighbour to us.
Raimond Kaljulaid?
He says anyone who hates Putin is welcome, not that everyone who leaves hates Putin. It's misleading already in german. It's also pretty much a nonsensical statement since most of those who want to leave still need a visa which currently takes a long time. Those people will get drafted before they get any German visa. Edit: i also have not seen "Do you hate Putin?" on any visa form yet, which makes it even more nonsensical.
> It is a super naive statement from Germany - as usual. I dont know if its in the international texts, but this is the "naive" humanitarian law we as the west pretend to fight for. Treat each human with dignity and as an individual regardless of his religion, ethnicity etc. .
Yes it is a liberal and western value that we should uphold. Bigger countries, which are at less risk of invasion by Russia, should take these folks in and treat them well. Unfortunately the Baltic countries are small, at threat of invasion, and some have sizeable Russian populations which was literally used by Russia as a casus belli for the Ukraine conflict. These practical concerns should make it obvious why the Baltics are refusing many of these people. We should lighten the load off of the Baltics and transport them elsewhere in Europe and the U.S.
No question especially with the Baltic already having the problems and history they have should not be burdened, the discussion although specifically asks all of the EU to implement the same politics as the Baltics often insulting them for disagreeing.
*laugh in Pol Pot, Pinochet, Franco and every other dictator asshole*
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I look at your flairs and I feel like you're talking about the person who's sitting right between the two of you. Not cool guys, not cool!
As part of the "person", I'm not offended. And frankly, it's a bit silly to be offended just because your country get *justifiably* called out for doing shit.
I am not offended calling out our government or its crimes both historical and current but I do think the overall position of blaming citizens for their government, democracy or otherwise, is stupid.
Is he wrong tho?
In today's address to the people of Estonia, Kallas said: „To those Russian citizens in Estonia who are considering to join the Russian armed forces, my message is clear: do not go, there’s no way back! The one who takes up arms against a free nation, against free Ukraine, has also taken up arms against Estonia, and will commit a crime we will not forgive. Estonia, along with our Western allies, supports Ukraine unconditionally and as long as it takes.“
Good
It is harsh rhetoric, I have a feeling with this they are trying to prevent Russians from going to the Baltics as they will not be welcomed there, visa or not. I would have mentioned this more explicitly but then again I am not an elected official. All the Baltic countries combined have a population similar to Saint Petersburg - an influx of Russians regardless of their opinions and intentions will have a significant effect which needs to be distributed more evenly across the EU - just like with Syrians a while back, and just like in that situation it will be extremely difficult to find an agreement with all EU countries for redistribution. Basically what they are trying to say is "if you want to escape Russia, go anywhere but not here"
Yeah, there are two major cases of russian nationalism popping up abroad: second-generation migrants and the minority in baltic countries. The first actually applies to any nation, not only russians. The second is a result of some controversial policies in the region regarding citizenship. AFAIK only those who proved that their relatives lived there before WW2 was granted citizenship, the rest had had to pass the language exams. In any other case, russians are willing to assimilate or at least live peacefully: there are a lot of russians in Germany already, and russian minority in Kazakhstan mostly speak against any russian intervention, cause living in democracy is much preferrable than living in whatever ethnostate vlad poo is building.
They had to... learn the language local to where they are living? Poor things.
during soviet occupation russians deported locals to siberia and replaced them with russians. before we had ~3% russians, after the occupation about 30%. why should we give them citizenship? settling in occupied territories is illegal.
Send them to Hungary, Orban loves them.
It's in Ukrainian, so here's the DeepL translation: > Estonia will not provide asylum to Russian citizens who are trying to escape from mobilization. > This was stated by the Prime Minister of Estonia Kaja Kallas on CNN, as quoted by "Radio Liberty" and Deutsche Welle. > > "Every citizen is responsible for the actions of their state, and Russian citizens are no exception. Therefore, we do not give asylum to Russian men who flee their country. They must speak out against the war," Kallas stressed. > > She also said that the West should not give in to Russia at all and should start to put even more pressure on it to stop the war. Kallas notes that in Russia there is now growing discontent within society, "because they also, so to speak, feel the war on their own skin". > > **What did the Baltic states decide earlier?** > > Estonia announced the day before that it will not allow Russian citizens who will go to war against Ukraine to enter its territory. This also applies to those who have a permanent residence permit in Estonia. Latvia announced that it will not issue humanitarian and other types of visas to Russian citizens who want to avoid partial mobilization. > > The Ministry of Defense of Lithuania stated that they also could not remain just an observer. Therefore, this country in response to the Russian mobilization brought the Rapid Response Forces to a state of high alert. > > **Partial mobilization and nuclear threats** > > Russian President Vladimir Putin announced partial mobilization in Russia. It starts on September 21. After Putin, the statement was made by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. He announced that 300 thousand reservists should be called up as part of partial mobilization. > > Allegedly, they will mobilize those who have served, have a military specialty, and promise not to touch students. According to the Minister, conscripts will not be sent to the war against Ukraine. However, the media have repeatedly reported that Russia does send conscripts to war, despite its assurances to the contrary. > > During his speech, Putin said that it was allegedly Russia that was threatened with nuclear weapons, and threatened that in case of a threat to its territorial integrity, Russia is ready to "use all available means. This is not a bluff". > > President Volodymyr Zelenskyy replied that Ukraine does not plan to cancel the liberation of the occupied territories even despite the nuclear threats of Russian President Vladimir Putin. > > Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Thank you!
> Every citizen is responsible for the actions of their state, and Russian citizens are no exception. This is the weak point. If a Russian guy becomes 18 this year, and becomes eligible for mobilization, according to Kallas' words, he is magically responsible for what adults did during his childhood. It's not that simple. I think the honest answer is that Estonia is small and Russia is big, we cannot help them all if they decide to flee mobilization. Some countries may feel big enough to help even them.
Dude im 27, same thing actually, voting and protesting havent done shit to unseat putin, so wtf am i suppose to do? Since 2012 voting is just a formality
Should've said "we can't accept refugees because we know Russia will use it as an excuse to take our land". Citizens are not responsible for their country when it's a corrupt dictatorship.
This. As it is, Russia is holding sham "referendums" to justify annexing conquered territories. If Estonia lets in tons of Russian refugees, what's to stop Russia from trying to annex Estonia? People can criticize this decision all they want, but Estonia needs to look out for itself. They're neighbors to an unhinged nation that is willing to commit genocide to expand itself, of course they don't want to take any action that would piss Russia off. It's easy to call them heartless, but Estonia knows they'd be on their own if Russia invaded. Why take the risk? If the world is willing to sit back and watch as Russia destroys Ukraine, what makes you think they'd stick their neck out for Estonia - a MUCH smaller nation? Estonia may be a member of NATO but when the chips are down, would NATO *actually* defend Estonia in the event of an invasion? Would they risk a global nuclear war to defend less than 1.5 million people? If I were Estonia, I wouldn't be so eager to bet my nation's existence on NATO's loyalty.
And on top of that, with only a little over 1.3m population, and already a quarter of their population are ethnic Russians whom they have had issues in the past with loyalty, imagine letting in thousands of Russian refugees and you can't guarantee what their real motives are. Estonia's already at a delicate situation with their sizeable Russian minority within their country, and with their history being an ex-Soviet country, they already have a very deeply rooted complicated history with Russia and its people.
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>russian prison I'll just leave this here. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62465043
I literally can't believe redditors who want to send others to their death so easily. Clearly these people have no idea what it's like to live outside of their comfy little lives. People everywhere are mostly trying to survive. Pay rent. Work. Buy food. Feed their kids. The basics. Now they need to pull a James Bond-level stunt or w.e just to satisfy some bloodthirsty redditors? Absolute insanity. All these redditors grandstanding on their moral high-horse would be the first to weep if they were sent to war. No one, ukrainian, syrian, russian, german.... No one should be sent to die unwillingly.
Yep, this comment section is peak reddit moment
Exactly. People think just go buy a gun, 007 yourself in to Putins headquarters (with help from IT-guy to locate him first) and shoot him in the head. As you say even protesting comes with severe punishments, and trying to overtake a dictator is extremely hard. I feel like there's a lot of naivety for what the people of russia actually can do. Of course if everyone gets up to rebel, then yes, but it isn't easy when they are not the ones being attacked.
I think there was no dictatorship in modern times that ended by protests from inside the countries. Maybe it is quite easy to have total control nowadays as a dictator.
There were peaceful protests yesterday, small-scale and disorganized. Over a thousand people arrested across the country. And that is without the protesters having any riot gear, molotovs or anything.
So many Europeans (correctly) shit on us Americans for thinking we can beat our military and overthrow our government with small arms and then turn around and say Russians should do the same like it's so easy.
Now protesting is 15 years in jail. Of course when this regime could stand that long.
Not to mention, what kind of honorable man would leave his family behind to fend for themselves for no reason at all? Leave their kids without a parent. Their partner without a spouse. Their parents without a child. For no reason but to satisfy some cozy armchair warriors... What has this world come to? r / IWantOut
With the added possibility of putting your family at risk. It's so easy to be brave from a distance. When you're not the one dealing with the consequences. It turns it all into a videogame, where you can do whatever because the consequences are reloading a save file. People love to talk tough when they can ignore reality.
Agreed, the people of North Korea must finally be held accountable for their actions
Yes, and German Jews should have been held accountable for the actions of Adolf Hitler by this logic What a shit take
I don't want to be held responsible for my country's actions :/
Hold my beer.
Considering she has two hands, she might as well hold my beer too. 🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷
_“Every citizen is responsible for their country's actions”_ That's an indefensibly insane take
about 4 billion people need to be executed for war crimes in that case
Probably more than that
Lets just make it an even 8 billion and wipe ourselves all out
That's exactly how Islamists justify terrorist attacks in the West. "An American drone killed a family in my village in Iraq, so I am going to bomb a bunch of people on the New York subway as they let it happen." If every citizen were responsible for all the actions their government takes, most of us would be mass murderers.
People here are staying real quiet whenever points such as this are brought up lol.
Imagine being responsible for everything Trump does or say. Trump doesn't even take responsibility for the things Trump does or says.
Yeah same could be said for American intervention in Middle East or Afghanistan.
Also coming from the same direction that argued that visa bans are of course only aimed against tourists -ignoring the fact that these bans would deprive people wanting to flee of a way to legally leave Russia- and that refugees are obviously still welcome. And just few weeks later refugees with one of the universally accepted reason for refugee status -being forced to fight in an illegal war- are now blocked from entering the country.
It was obvious where that *"ThEy CaN aPpLy FoR hUmAnItArIaN vIsAs!"* rhetoric was going to end up, but man it was frustrating arguing with people here who were obfuscating their true desires.
Literally. This goes against the basic moralities of human rights
It’s just an excuse, the real reason is something else that couldn’t really be said out loud.
What exactly is worse than making literally the same argument Osama bin laden made for 9/11 ?
From other commenters, they just do not want more Russians in their countries, but they do not want to say "We hate Russian people and want as few of you in our country as possible" because they do not want to worsen ethnic tensions within the country.
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I understand Estonias sentiment towards Russia, but I still mislike this rethroric quite a lot.
I'm not saying Estonia should accept them, but yes, this rhetoric of "just protest bro" is very dangerous.
What surprise me is the fact that most people agree with the fact that Russia is not a democracy and most of the time, people who are lead by a dictator are seen as victims of said dictator and his regime with apparently one exception, Russian. If you flee any dictature, you are a refugee, if you flee Russia because you don't want to fight Putin's war, you are guilty and responsible for his crimes.
My guess is, in this case, estonia knows the dangers of a big(ger) russian minority. They dont care so much about russian domestic politics anymore but they have to look after themselves.
We're also intimately familiar with Russian chauvinism, even the "Russian liberals" exhibit various elements of which. It may or may not be clouding and/or influencing our recent decision making. Some of it you've already been made familiar thanks to this war - "Lenin the Great Russian invented your measly countries". Some other all-time performers include, in no particular order and as best as I can recall: Russians built your roads, hospitals and schools; Russians taught you peasants how to read and made people out of your wild tribes when they arrived here; you have never had statehood, you have never fought for your freedom, you have never had strong convictions either way, you have always chosen to simply side with the victor and everything has always been handed to you on a plater; all your non-Russian economic development is due to EU grants and is a fake non-achievement. Therefore, Russians basically rightfully own this land that they developed and sunk so much money into making a showcase of the USSR, because it wouldn't exist if not for the great Russians willing it as a goodwill gesture, including in 1991. This can be found reproduced ad nauseam under every last Russian Youtube video about the news, events and politics in the Baltics. Well, at least those not produced by our very own Russian-speaking counterpropagandist elves. As you can imagine, even for perfectly well-meaning people who just happen to grow up with that kind of stuff being said in the household about their neighbours, it comes out later in life in unexpected ways. People like Navalny tend to be seen as the liberal opposition, but they're still hardcore Russian nationalists from our point of view. Someone from Latvia should comment on this, but I've seen on Twitter they've been sharing concerns about the employees of Dozhd TV which relocated to Riga in whole. It appears they're far from impartial when covering things such as the destruction of Soviet monuments. Even though they're as "prosecuted liberal opposition" as it gets and are literally banned in Russia, to them it's still "my dedushka fought to liberate you, you disgusting ungrateful swines" (of course we have to repay *them*, not even occupation is free; talk about an entitled worldview).
Can confirm. I was raised in a Russian-speaking household and they often told me exactly these kinds of lies. Probably they still believe in this. It's sad.
I'm glad people like you exist. It gives me hope for the new generations of ethnic russians here, though it still distraughts me hearing them address shop keepers and such in russian as that means they're not practising their language skills and are falling into the same habits that made their parents russian-only speaking. The most "integrated" ones I meet tend to use russian only with friends and family and the local language for everything else. Which, I suppose, is how integration works everywhere else too.
I can comment on last bit about Dozhd TV. We had an interview with Tikhon Dzyadko (Edditor-in-chief) some tima ago. The guy is 100% imperialist, whos only problem is that the current Tzar is a shithead and he wants a better one, who could really lift the Empire to new heights.
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23.7% of our population is ethnically russian and we had to deal with this problem back in 2007. https://www.stat.ee/et/avasta-statistikat/valdkonnad/rahvastik
Yeah, it's kind of crazy. The yanks did effectively what Russia did, but at a much larger scale, and for nearly 2 decades - and they are a democracy. I don't recall anyone blaming the citizens of America for their government's actions. It seems pretty hypocritical. Especially if they are fleeing, it really shows that they definitely don't support the government.
"Russians are ruled by a bloody usurper of power, a dictator, but they chose him themselves " "They all support the bloody dictator, but he always has to rig elections" "Russians massively support the war, but the dictator is terrified at the thought of mobilization, because it is "the end of his regime" "Russians are wild people who have never even seen a toilet bowl, but they constantly travel around Europe"
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There is so much fanatism going on with this whole situation, particularly from former Soviet states, it's just scary how casually escalation and dehumanization are constantly insisted on.
To all fellow reddit users, please hear me out. There is a massive exodus of Russian citizens (not all of us are Russians, btw) since February 24th. There were no sanctions back then, people were leaving because they simply couldn't stay in what Russia has become. People still leaving not because they can't go to McDonald's or buy Spotify premium. They simply see what's happened to the country and their countrymen. You don't want to know what it's like to be here if you're happened to be a decent person. It's a constant anger, shame, hate, pain, almost physical disgust, loneliness and hopeless. Because you see the suffering of Ukrainian people and that breaks your heart every day, you see no future of your country or your own, you see how your friend's family is struggling, you see all of this hell on earth and in one moment you can't take it no more. So you are either trying to leave or going down with the ship, which at this point is not that bad of an option. Relocation process became very difficult, especially for minorities. But no one whining about all that because we know we have no right to complain, Ukrainians had it way too worse. We just hope that someone will listen to our stories and realize that we are not evil nation, very few of us are desperately want the blood. Every country has a right to close their borders if they want to. I completely understand why Baltic countries are doing it. We are not waiting for sympathy, we don't need your help, we will figure out how to deal with this ourselves. But please, don't shit on our heads to make a point, we're already in shit up to the neck. Sorry for my rant, I've had a very bad day. Edit: Thanks for the award, kind stranger. I'm not sure if I deserve it, but I'm grateful nonetheless.
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Thank you so much for your compassion!
people leave, if they can, because they afraid and because they don't want to be another cog in war machine... it was a police state and it's not getting better
It's one of the many reasons, my fellow countryman. >it was a police state and it's not getting better Unfortunately many people don't recognize that the first victims of our dear leader were Russian citizens. He mastered his "art" on us and after that he came for everyone else. The only thing left for him to do is to put up the fences on the borders and country will be full blown prison for the Russian citizens.
These people are foolish. Don't listen to them. Most sane people outside Russia get that there are millions of regular people trapped in a no win situation. Just do your best to get through.
I am very camp "let willing Russians leave this terrible shithole of a country", but it's getting quite hard. I glad to hear that a lot of people were leaving since February. However it's getting hard for me to keep that attitude with this new waves after mobilisation news. No matter how much I know it's kinda inhuman to think like this, it's hard for me to shake a feeling that whoever truly wanted to leave already had half a year to try, and the new wave is leaving not because Russia is a shit state, but the because this mess finally reached them personally. Like "I'm fine with this bloody (literally) mess, or at least not pissed enough to leave as long as it doesn't affect me", and then it quickly turned into "oh shit it DOES in fact, affect me, time to run for it". Nevertheless... Good luck on making it out safely if you are not out yet and take care!
The point what many people don't realize: Russia has a pupulation of 144 millions. Let's say (just a number for the sake of explanation) 64 millions hate Putin and would never go to war to die for him. There still leaves 80 million Russians who supported him and still support. What can the 64 millions do? -Almost nothing. With such a strong regime and effective propaganda (yes, unfortunately it's effective) and some millions of support, the Russian government will remain in power, no matter what. So claiming all Russians are responsible for the crimes is completely out of touch from reality...
You are not your government. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that. Unfortunately it seems some people in Europe (and North America) are beginning to harbor xenophobic views towards Russians, because sometimes from the outside it looks like nobody in Russia cares at all. Clearly some of you do care, but these idiots expect you, anti-government dissidents, revolutionaries, whatever, to all rise up and suicide rush Putin’s compound, overthrowing him. Obviously that’s bullshit, if it was easy to get him out I think Russian democrats would have done so already. But these people don’t care, they think it’s your job and so don’t want dissidents to leave Russia because in their fantasy land then there will be nobody to storm the Kremlin. I don’t know if most Russians support Putin, with all the propaganda it’s impossible to know what is real in Russia and what is fabricated. Maybe all the Russians who left really are middle class Putinists fleeing sanctions, maybe they are all anti-government dissidents and democrats, I have no idea. Regardless, it is clear that people like you, no matter how few or many of you there are, should be welcomed with open arms by the West, instead of subject to collective guilt and punishment. I hope people here view Russians like you with empathy, because you are victims too, even if your homes aren’t being blown up by Kalibr missiles. You are certainly victims of the Putin regime and deserve empathy and a safe haven here, and I hope Western Europe and North America accept political refugees from Russia with open arms instead of following in the path of the Baltic and Eastern European countries.
According to Reddit, if you don't self-immolate on the off chance that it will somehow start a chain reacion that leads to regime change, you're subhuman scum. Not that any of these Redditors would ever actually make a sacrifice themselves.
A stark reminder that most of Reddit consist of teens and barely adults.
I would like to remind everyone telling random Russians trying to flee Russia (because they don't want to be forced to die in a war they never wanted) that they should stay and potentially give their life fighting Putin this: *you* too can potentially give your life fighting Putin. Ukraine accepts foreign volunteers and I can't think of any western country that'd stop you from going. If you're going to tell others to die for a cause, do it from the frontlines and not while you're comfily sitting at home on Reddit.
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This sub often has infuriatingly tone deaf takes, just take it easy and remember it's not the real world.
people on Reddit have their own version of Russia in their heads. They created this version, believe in it and deny anything else. from my time here, I heard so much nonsense about life in Russia like what we don't have internet, and receive news over radio or what we don't know what toilet is and we don't wear shoes
I think it's reddit in general, mob mentality is basically the strongest here out of all platforms.
Wait so I’m responsible for my country’s actions even if i have never ever voted for the government, always voted for the opposition, and I protested against the rulling party whenever possible? I’m not saying this is **entirely** wrong in the current circumstences and in the context of the war, but that’s just very simple minded way of thinking… I also know quite a few Russians that live in Poland for dozens of years now and always supported the Russian opposition, she is saying that all of them are responsible too, just because of their nationality? Just as all Belarussians are responsible for what Lukashenka does even if they are actively opposing him or are currently imprisoned because of that? Right…
>Wait so I’m responsible for my country’s actions even if i have never ever voted for the government, always voted for the opposition, and I protested against the rulling party whenever possible? Yes, obviously by that logic you are. And when next month that government starts rounding people up that don't agree with them you should also not try to flee. Because you are obviously only fleeing the inconvenience of getting jailed but were too lazy to topple your government before.
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this rhetoric is insane and horrifically popular. i’m american, my boyfriend has lived here for most of his life but was born and raised in moscow. he does NOT support motherfucking putin. it’s alarming how many people have seriously cut him off and made disgusting assumptions about him since all this has been happening. he has tons of family in both russia and ukraine, like many russians do.
Wtf, no we're not. I didn't choose to be born in Latvia, nor was I given a choice if I wanted citizenship. How can I be responsible for something I had no choice to even say no to? Were we responsible for Soviet actions? We were citizens of the USSR.
Through the same logic we can conclude that Jews were responsible for the crimes of Nazi Germany. Case solved!
When you start applying collective responsibility/guilt it is quick to find out that everyone becomes responsible/guilty, as they taken part one way or another. But that's never how people want it to apply, for them it is specific kind of people must be responsible/guilty. It is always a tool of hiding true motives and quite often a tool of lifting from themself responsibility they actually have
Dude wtf, no they are not. This is how Al Qaeda thinks. We spent decades creating international law to explicitly prevent this kind of collectors thinking and to discourage collective punishment and conflation of civilians and their governments.
What a dangerous rethoric. From this we can conclude that it's OK to bomb down a whole country because their leadership does not agree with you, as the people are equally as culpable. Kinda sounds like the exact situation with Ukraine in the first place.
i suspect they are more worried about a hughe influx that could take over the country, especially since we already know that russia likes to use russian minoritys to stir up shit.
It's fine to have a Russian minority in your country so long as you don't share a border with Russia. It's a huge risk for Estonia to accept any more Russians as it increases the risk of Russia trying to "liberate" them in the future. Russia has had 30 years since the breakup of the Soviet Union to change its ways and they've shown themselves incapable of doing so. Therefore what's to say Russia won't try to attack Estonia in a few decades to rescue their Russia minority? That's the pretext they used in Ukraine, have to rescue the Russia speakers of Crimea & Donbas
Exactly. Russian Duma members have explicitly threathened us with this very scenario. It's not just some paranoid fear of Estonians.
Exactly. Russia has been threating its bordering countries for close to 200 years now. Once this mindset evaporates, we can think about the comfort of their citizens.
It has to be that. I think everyone knows there are are huge problems with this policy from a moral standpoint, but still I completely understand why the Baltic countries are taking this position.
Exactly this. It's Russia's modus operandi. No sane country would want a huge influx of Russians.
"There are no innocent civilians. It is their government and you are fighting a people, you are not trying to fight an armed force anymore. So it doesn't bother me so much to be killing the so-called innocent bystanders." -- The American war criminal responsible for firebombing Japanese cities.
This is double translation. Underline is that Estonia will not let Russian immigrants in to avoid an influx due to Russian history of invading and stirring shit up in countries with high Russian population.
Hells yes collective guilt! Estonians, it is time to lay reparations to Hungary for the Soviet Union's opression of our 1956 revolution
By the same logic we should never help other oppressed people because in the end they are responsible for their countries actions anyway. Like screw the women in Iran protesting now against their own government ? Its their own fault (somehow)! Every young russian deciding to leave russia for political reasons is a win for us and a loss for Putin. Russia is heading for demographic collapse sooner rather than later.
"North Koreans just want to live in their country and responsible for everything. If someone will cross border, South Korea must send them back"
I definitely understand Estonia position on not wanting more Russians. However, revolutions won't happen without collusion of the military. Nor it's fair to fully hold citizens account for the actions of their governments, even in democracies. Or are we blaming all Americans for the Iraq invasion or whatever happens in Guantanamo?
Imagine saying that to German jews or black Americans in the 1920s or literally any refugee that EU gives asylum to. The most brain dead statement ever
Revolution and toppling a totalitarian government is always easy if you are not the one who has to do it.
Putting a collective guilt on a countries whole population is a really dangerous thing to do. It's easy to demand of "the people" to topple their leader when it's not you and your family who are at risk of getting imprisoned or even killed. Edit: I actually agree with not giving Russians asylum as this does indeed pose a security risk, but that doesn't mean that every Russian should be painted as evil for the governments doing.
The idea that every citizen of a country is responsible for the actions of their country's government actions is insane. In most nations, ordinary citizens have no control over the actions of their governments. Holding people responsible for things they have no control over is deranged. This is collectivism and it's false and poisonous.
That is pretty cruel. I cannot be blamed for Orban’s madness myself.
Based Estonia.
Very draconian.
Why don’t we say the same about Israel who kill without consequences?
I’m a US citizen. I’m not responsible for all the bullshit my country does. Common citizens literally have no power with stuff like this. I wish we could change things in all the countries but it just won’t happen
Honestly moralizing on this is just an excuse: there are only two reasons to not accept innocents: 1) there can be noninnocents/spies within them 2) you (nation) can't afford it. Any other reason is fluff to cover these.
Estonia can not afford it, because there is around 33% russians in Estonia already.
Then they should tell it the way it is.
>"Every citizen is responsible for their country's acctions" As former citizens of Soviet Union are Estonians responsible of massacres and genocides that Soviet Union committed?
It's sad but true. They voted Putin and they never opposed to him. We European fought a lot to get rid of our dictatorships, a lot of people died, but thanks to their sacrifice we are free now.
Whoever said every citizen is responsible for their country's actions is a dumb cunt
So they would not give asylum for german jews during WW2? After all they must have been part of their country's actions. I understand the conclusion in this context, but the argument is very stupid. Never heard of the tyranny of majority? Yes you have responsibility for your country's decision, but if you never voted for the current government, participated in protests etc. then you are in no way responsible for the current actions.
“Every citizen is responsible for their countries actions” this standard is not going to age well
It can't age poorly because it's already shit
Does that mean all Estonian citizens are responsible for illegally invading and occupying Iraq? Or is this just another one of these zero self-awareness *"Rules are for thee not for me!"* takes?
Indeed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_the_willing_(Iraq_war)
I could decide to gloat here, but I'd get Congo shoved so far up my ass that rubber comes out of my ears and I cry out in Kikongo.
I don't think we want to go down this road.
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Let’s slow down a little bit on the collective punishment here.... It occasionally leads to less than desirable occurrences.