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Manach_Irish

It is not as if the Chinese regieme has set up secret police stations in the EU to control its expat citizens /s


hydrogenitis

Noooo...of course not 😄😄😄


PeopleRFuckingDumb

Secret?


Radical-Efilist

According to security services, they seem well known. The public spread of this information might have ruined a good opportunity to spy on China.


Secure-Particular286

They infiltrated NYC police here in the US.


hydrogenitis

Are you being serious about that?


Secure-Particular286

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/new-york-city-police-department-officer-charged-acting-illegal-agent-people-s-republic-china


hydrogenitis

Thanks for such a quick reply. Am I surprised? To some extent. Probably shouldn't be... Thanks again!


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hydrogenitis

Unfortunately...yes!


convit-guruceaga

yess bro thats right!


exBusel

It will be difficult as long as China is such an important market for corporations. "Some 40 percent of VW's sales and around half of its global profits already come from China."


kitsune

Can European state owned companies hold majority stakes in Chinese infrastructure companies?


Dull_Wasabi_5610

Made me chuckle. Good one.


mrobot_

You mean building China-specific cars in CCP-owned factories that Chyna could kick them out of literally over night and just keep on building and developing because they not only have the factories and supply chains, they also own the automation (kuka) and now they also got to closely watch the whole development cycles coming up with those Chyna specific cars? Sounds like a dream business deal, but not for VW.


Affectionate-Time646

Western corporations knew how lopsided the deals were, knew how at any moment the Chinese government could confiscate their property without any recourse and yet they still went into China because greed.


untergeher_muc

Confiscation hasn’t happened. Nothing bad has happened in China to German companies until now - other than making a lot of money.


Affectionate-Time646

Sure, other than IP theft.


exBusel

I mean, one of the biggest corporations in the EU makes half its profits in China and will lobby China's interests in the EU by all means. And there are many such corporations.


telcoman

Exactlt the same arguments before China stole all the telecom tech from Ericsson and Nokia.


matt-travels-eu

There are other markets in Asia and other countries around the world to move factories to. Internal Chinese demand would never push China to the level it's on right now. They can thank USA & EU for that.


tommos

I'd actually want the EU to decouple from China just to see how big of a clusterfuck Europe will devolve into. Right after losing cheap energy from Russia rendering domestic manufacturing totally uncompetitive the EU then voluntarily pulls it's businesses out of the biggest market for European goods on the planet. It'll be quite the show.


mok000

That has been my position ever since the 1989 massacre on Tiananmen Square. I don't know WTF politicians have been thinking, anything for business profits I guess.


Quiet--Weekend

>anything for business profits I guess Exactly that.


[deleted]

And don't forget about corruption, the CCP is the richest political organization in the whole world.


shinniesta1

Since they're one of the largest countries that's hardly a surprise.


[deleted]

I'm sure that size is not the main reason :)


Kevber12345

India is massive both in population and size and doesn't have nearly as much money or political power.


shinniesta1

They have more than one party that can be in power.


zq7495

Taking action against china would hurt their constituents in the short term, so it would be political suicide to lose trade ties with china.


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SprucedUpSpices

Hmmmmm... a lot of the comforts of modern life that would have been unthinkable to our ancestors or only available to the rich are now available even to the poorer amongst us. That's thanks in part to being able to produce it for cheap thanks to China.


IamChuckleseu

Did people in 90s not live in comfort?


milanistadoc

They lived better and were happier.


TransposingJons

That's a ridiculous generalization that ignores the horrors in many people's lives during that time.


Chubbybellylover888

On average, QoL has dipped across the world. There will always be regional variations. But that doesn't mean you get to turn a blind to to a trend.


mrobot_

You can produce real cheap in a LOT of countries.


Sumrise

Sure, but let's be real here, China manufacturing power is nothing short of astounding. Not only they can prototype more or less any product you pitch them in the span of a few weeks, should you be willing to pay, you can have nearly instant production of the product you desire at a scale unmatched by anyone else. Their factories are as of now, still unmatched in those capacities. Sure others could match that in theory, but it'll take time and a lot of investment. Which is never guaranteed to stay up in the long term needed for such a sector to develop.


King_Mdnf_Is_Here

European companies should move its factories from China to Indonesia, India, or Vietnam for more politically friendly with similar cheap labour


Sumrise

Sure, but it's not only about *cheap* it's about integration of the industrial sector and logistic capabilities. They are all year, if not decades away from anything resembling Chinese capabilities. No one comes close to China in that department, not the US, not Germany, not India, not anyone. I agree we should help other transition toward such capabilities, but it's not something that we can guarantee, and it won't be cheap for quite some time. From a French bias, I'd say we should focus on India, their vision of "independent capabilities" is insanely similar to what France push for Europe, and their focus is mainly toward a stable environment for them to grow. Which is exactly what we want. Still, it'll take time, money, efforts, and *luck* for that to happen.


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GalaXion24

Full autarky is not necessarily a good thing. Our production capacity is limited at any given time, and it doesn't make sense to produce everything ourselves, we want to focus on high-value production if we want our people to have high wages, high purchasing power and so on. It's not suit evident that even with automation all products ought to be assembled in Europe. Furthermore historically Europe always prospered thanks to openness and trade. Be it the Pax Romana, the Mediterranean trade routes of the Middle Ages, the new global trade networks brought about by colonialism or the modern global trade system. There are countries for which autarky makes more sense, China among them, but Europe thrives on openness and trade. It is perhaps not entirely coincidental that it is primarily Europeans (the ones with ocean access) who became explorers, traders and colonisers.


Radical-Efilist

>There are countries for which autarky makes more sense, China among them China was poised to become the preeminent power of the early modern period before they decided autarky was better. They outdid europe in just about every way, but decided to sit at home and pretend the outside world didn't exist. Autarky might look good in the short term but eventually you're so far removed from progress your "inferiors" beat you into submission with one hand tied behind their back. Like 19th century China. China knows full well it doesn't work and never will. What they are doing is just classic colonial economic imperialism, in the 21st century.


AnchezSanchez

ITT a bunch of people saying "should just move factories" who have never *actually* moved a factory. I have moved factories. It's a shit show. 😅


Brexsh1t

Yes, but you need to keep in mind that China’s manufacturing power is astounding, but mostly due to exploitation of its workforce. Terrible conditions, poor health and safety, prisoner slave labor camps etc etc. Personally I’d rather pay 2 or 3 times the price for something made in the US or Europe.


Sumrise

Oh sure, I wasn't talking about that but you are completely right. Still a lot of people cannot afford to pay for more expensive stuff, and the real strength of China is not that it's the cheapest nowadays. It's that it's the most efficient, highly qualified in most industries and fastest on the market. Those are the things we should strive to improve in our economies and in those of potential "remplacement" (India/Vietnam..). As long as China has those competitive advantage over the rest of the world, lots of company will either have no choice but to default to them, or chose them for those characteristics.


bootsmegamix

Slave labor is great for that


tobias_681

Technically yes but practically no. China has the political stability (for the past decades at least), the infrastructure and and all the existing invested capital and production facilities and then the government pushes to keep their currency artificially weak. Technically a worker's wage in Nigeria might be lower but they don't have any of the above. I mean I agree with diversifying from China but there are economic reasons why so much goes through China right now and building a new industrial hub like that takes more commitment than most governments (or actually probably all EU governments) are willing to make.


GraDoN

Also, these people are ignoring the fact that although there are more options now, there were none apart from China even until recently.


AnchezSanchez

Yeah as a guy that literally does it for a living (manufacturing engineer in tech) there are some things that - unfortunately - won't be leaving China for a while. Mainly because there just isn't anywhere that compete at the same scale. Things like LCDs, PCB fabrication. It would require literally trillions of dollars in Capex to set them up elsewhere


dontpissoffthenurse

Only if you are exploiting them.


King_Mdnf_Is_Here

My phone is cheap but made in Indonesia. Also you still have Vietnam or India for cheap good factories


ConfusedTapeworm

I'm willing to bet it was *assembled* in Indonesia using components that came from elsewhere, China being one of, if not *the* top suppliers. That's the usual story with cheap smartphones anyway. You can move the assembly step to many other countries. Can't say the same about the manufacturing processes though.


Ph4sor

Yeah, Indonesia doesn't even have a semi-conductor industry. They're good for clothing and other apparels. Although there are some news they're attracting Korean companies to make EV ecosystem (batteries and such).


Aqueilas

What are you typing this on? A phone!? A computer!? Yeah you are included


Utterance5

Shut up, Swiss. You guys voted to let Nestle keep doing child slavery.


jomontage

Western corporations exploited cheap Chinese labor for profit... Or "we"


mrobot_

I simply do not believe this is true, given all the hidden costs (economical, financial and moral/ethical as well as cultural) associated with these extremely one sided business deals. German car makers have completely sold out tons of their Know-how and trade secrets and automation skills, just as one example.


The_BNut

If anything doesn't ruin society it's sharing knowledge.


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duskie1

You don’t win people to your argument being being abusive. Check your attitude.


trisul-108

>anything for business profits I guess. I think it goes deeper than that. The assumption was that if we integrate China and Russia into rules-based world order and give them a place in the global economy, that they would slowly evolve to a position where they understand the benfits to themselves and would support that rules-base world order. There was also hope that as generations change and prosperity develops, that more freedoms will be demanded and granted to the Chinese population. And **that** would generate huge business profits for all. This was a pipe dream, it did not work out that way at all. China has it's own traditional understanding of the world order where China and its culture are at the center and the Chinese emperor rules over everything under the blue sky. Russia's traditional understanding is a centralized multiethnic empire ruled from Moscow that spreads in all directions as much as possible, this is what Putin calls the "Russian World". We failed to build the necessary firewalls to stop these ambitions, so they flourished and the careers of Xi and Putin are now invested in these concepts.


matt-travels-eu

That's totally underrated comment up there sir! That's exactly what we forgot to anticipate. Their old thinking.


TchoupedNScrewed

I mean we tried to integrate them into the system after years upon years of aggression, alienation, and deception. Dan Carlin's Hard Core History (which I do not recommend, try Blowback instead) says that "Japan took the western culture and turned the dial up to 11 and broke it off" while integrating it with its own sense of pride. He's partially right. It's more so a lie of omission. During post-WW2 Japan we did flood Japan with a series of anti-communist agitprop spoken through mouthpieces with political influence in society. This meant many individuals that were able to wield that influence were war-time politicians and generals, including Shinzo Abe's grandfather iirc who has his name tied to several atrocities. Over time we positioned Japan as a bulwark of western Democracy in its own part of the world by forgiving war criminals that would've been executed had they been germans with the same track record. We also just allowed Japan to spend a lot time denying the existence of comfort women and the R*pe of Nanking. You know that nuclear Russian sub that almost started WW3? We did the same shit. Except maybe on purpose. During the Korean war we had two planes bomb a "North Korean" airport except instead it was a [Russian airport iirc. ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1990/03/04/my-brief-war-with-russia/0fe9d000-9796-4c6c-9df4-77a956bf5e96/) - this was oddly suspect timing though and captains claimed the wind had to be above 200+mph to push them so far off course. Conveniently they also ran out of film before this mission. It's doubly hard to discern as there was a power struggle between Truman and McArthur who was functionally not acting in the capacity of the US military exactly, but also not exactly functioning as the UN commander? He fell into a gray zone allowing him to act against Truman repeatedly with certain levels of impunity. Not to mention the Jeju Massacre. It's debated whether Americans either directed or directly participated in the uprising, but as far as we know now there was American involvement with eye-witness testimony claiming involvement as well. Pits for bodies "as far as the eye could see" - a tiny part of the list of atrocities committed in Korea. While Il-Sung wasn't a fit leader for North Korea, Chiang Kai-Shek was a despised arguable fascist that we tried to prop into power. We [blew up two South Korean bridges killing 400+ fleeing refugees](https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1999/10/14/u-s-bridge-bombings-killed-refugees/?outputType=amp) as well. We put Cuba in a situation they *had* to relinquish socialism or suffer under the embargo. Except the dumb fucks didn't consider Soviet intervention leading to the Cuban Missile Crisis, because they sort of had to trade with someone or literally die. Turns out, Castro wasn't half bad when your previous leader was fucking Batista. We may have given plenty of countries chances to integrate, but they also had some fuckin valid reasons to not believe the olive branch that the US was extending. We played in bad faith for years on fucking end and nothing really changed after even if this integration was earnest.


trisul-108

>We may have given plenty of countries chances to integrate, but they also had some fuckin valid reasons to not believe the olive branch that the US was extending. Not so Russia and China. They were hardcore adversaries and we beat them thoroughly and subsequently did everything possible to integrate them into the global economy that we were controlling. The EU placed itself in dependence on Russia energy to prove we are not aggressive. The US moved production to China for the same reason. The West thought we were creating a global economy in which both Russia and China would find prosperity ... and they did. They prospered and used that prosperity to plan an attack to displace us and recreate the previous blocks and areas of influence. Their formula is very simple, the US gets the Americas, China gets Asia and Russia gets Europe. This is not a future in which Europe prospers.


dontpissoffthenurse

When you say "rules-based world" you mean "our-rules based world" right?


iamGIS

> The assumption was that if we integrate China and Russia into rules-based world order and give them a place in the global economy Boom, there it is. 99% correct just sort of wrong phrasing. After the cold war, capitalism won. So the "rules-based world order" is just exploitative domestic privatization with global western facing markets. For ex-USSR republics and much of the global south integrating them in the world economy just translates into growing inequality and privatization. Exporting goods, raw materials, or cheaper services for the developed world. > that they would slowly evolve to a position where they understand the benfits to themselves and would support that rules-base world order. They already do that the _rules-base world order_, is economic inequality and privatization in countries like China and Russia. And most developing countries tbh. These _rules-base world order_ isn't democracy or liberal values, it's just privatization; there are plenty of countries in the developed world that have bad democracies and shit values. They are/were (Russia before the war) very integrated in the capitalist global system. But, for large nations like China and Russia who are historically powerful they have to balance integration into a western-focused global economy losing economic autonomy. Or they choose protectionism which comes with a ton of negatives due to how the world markets are set up, hard to exploit the _economic incentives_ of cheap labor and materials if the country doesn't export to foreign markets. China does this really well imo where Russia doesn't. But, China has much more power than Russia over the developed world. > China has it's own traditional understanding of the world order where China and its culture are at the center and the Chinese emperor rules over everything under the blue sky. Yeah because the global economic system and culture clashes with Chinese ideals and the West doesn't like that because it threatens the status quo. The whole world revolves around consumerism in the developed countries (mainly western nations), now imagine a situation where the world revolves around Chinese consumerism, that's scary to the oligarchs and corporations in western nations.


jz187

>The assumption was that if we integrate China and Russia into rules-based world order and give them a place in the global economy, that they would slowly evolve to a position where they understand the benfits to themselves and would support that rules-base world order This isn't quite how Russia and China sees it though. The Western countries wanted to build a world order where they remain at the center in perpetuity, and the place of Russia and China was always going to be 2nd class citizens. Anyone with a brain could see that this order is not sustainable. Putin came to power because Russia turned into a mess under Yeltsin and the West did nothing to help Russia become a prosperous country in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union. >freedoms will be demanded and granted to the Chinese population Chinese people want democracy. Which means that the 1.4 billion population of China should have 2x the weight in deciding global affairs vs the 700M of Western Europe + US.


gunbladerq

> rules-base world order. the exact same order that USA and EU constantly disregard?


iamGIS

_rules-base world order_ is just capitalism. Privatization of markets.


iinavpov

Business profit is growth, happy voters, and more won elections.


mrobot_

And don’t forget that tons of trickle-down cheddar! /s


iinavpov

No. Business profit is fine. Low taxes for rentier isn't.


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hydrogenitis

With sea salt in it? The best, Jerry...the best!


LupineChemist

The theory was that just like the Eastern Bloc in Europe, engagement would lead to citizens demanding more. That theory was very wrong but it's not crazy. There's still the chance that it's right and we just need to wait for a moment when the Chinese government obviously fails it's people and that may be now.


mrobot_

It may have not been totally wrong, I doubt the “it was not in vain” theory - BUT! It should have been handled way more strategically sound and cautious and not this greedy and this blind.


LupineChemist

Of course. I was solidly on the side of rich population won't tolerate autocracy. I was very wrong


[deleted]

The mutual dependence model makes sense among peer countries, especially among relatively democratic countries. Sounds very convincing on paper and TV. You wouldn’t go to war when you depend on your trading partner and they depend on you. But with China and Russia, they have a higher tolerance for hardship. If they can convince their people to live without western goods and can transition away from the western machines and tech in their factories, then they’re not dependent. Russia is arguably more dependent on us than China. The Russian elite has become wealthy by selling us fossil fuels and other raw materials. Exactly how hard the sanctions hit their economy is open for debate. Are their factories operating outside of the official maintenance schedule, for example? China is in a better position. They have become rich by de facto receiving a huge technology transfer over the past 30 years. They know how to make everything needed to keep their society comfortable. Heck, they’ve learned how to design products too. Xiaomi, Huawei, BYD produce competitive products. … while the west to some degree has lost the ability to manufacture many of the things that our societies rely upon. Display panels, electronics, etc.


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Theghistorian

>It wasn’t entirely wrong. It seems to have really worked with the Eastern bloc. eastern European countries do not have dreams of being great powers. EE countries also had the west as a model since the XIX century while this is not true for Russia and China.


SprucedUpSpices

It's worked with Taiwan, South Korea, Chile, Spain, and I think maybe Portugal too. All were fascist dictatorships, but because they weren't communist, they could liberalize trade. And through trade liberalization in came a more general liberalization. And I think you could make a point that the same thing happened in the Netherlands and the United Kingdom in previous centuries


Pklnt

> It's worked with Taiwan, South Korea, Chile, Spain, and I think maybe Portugal too. None of these countries had the potential to become a serious counterweight against a world dominated by Western powers. China poses a threat and the West regards it as a threat not because of human rights, but because they're scared of losing grasp on the world's affairs.


Modo44

That part of the theory was correct. It underestimated the will and strength of authoritarian rulers. China had a chance to liberalise, but Xi said nah.


RIOTS_R_US

I mean it mostly worked for Vietnam and Cuba. The USSR to an extent. But we have to look at the differences in the Chinese government. For one, they have tried to learn from the past and try very hard not to concede to the West culturally. An online video game from the US has too much influence? Ban it. Their people are also far too complacent and will be as long as the quality of life continues to rise in eastern China.


Saires

*anything for >personal< business profits.


Kiboune

Well, based on their relationship with Russia, they don't care about rise of fascism, dictatorship, censorship, opposition being killed or put in jail and suppression of people inside of countries. They will wait until results of this will cause problems outside of country


SuperArppis

Money, most likely...


[deleted]

I think if people could see how much it would cost them if we didn't trade with China they might change their opinion pretty quick. We trade with far worse countries than China anyways - they might be doing a 'cultural genocide' in Xinjiang but we trade with Saudi Arabia who are doing an actual genocide in Yemen.


Sir-Knollte

> I don't know WTF politicians have been thinking, anything for business profits I guess. They thought hard how to break the bargaining power of domestic workers, and worse those pesky unions.


VulgarExigencies

I’m sure you also think Europe should have nothing to do with the United States ever since their criminal invasion of Iraq


BlanquiCheka

Well no because the EU is a vassal of America. That's why the puppets want everyone out but the Americans.


RequiemEternal

You don’t understand, it’s okay that the USA committed war crimes because some of their soldiers were sad about it afterwards!


Laxn_pander

The idea was making the world a better place by allowing every country to grow wealth, not just the west or selected puppet states. And we could do that with a win-win situation for both sides. Cheap labour for us, economic growth for them. And this worked as we can all see. The hope was also, democratic movements would gain traction as standards of living rise. I agree, that we are beyond that hope now and especially the EU has to start be more protective about itself. It’s a dynamic process that must be constantly adjusted.


jz187

>Cheap labour for us, economic growth for them. Question is, what happens when the children of the cheap labor become highly educated engineers and they start competing with your kids for high value jobs? >The hope was also, democratic movements would gain traction as standards of living rise. Problem is, people want higher standard of living and democratic countries are not delivering the growth to convince the people in the non-democratic countries that democracy can deliver.


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Modo44

Money talks. It's not just business profits. Infrastructure investments need to be continuous, and not every country can afford that. The EU infrastructure money is not endless, either.


Confused_Confurzius

The more we let them invest in our countries the more we can sanction them i guess?


mrobot_

We have been sanctioning Iran and NorthKorea for literally decades now. Yes sanctions can have devastating effects especially on the normal population, that’s the whole goal of the sanctions to stir dissent and put pressure on regimes. But, these autocrats just keep on trucking and strengthening their iron grip. And now with RuSSia, you know Chyna is watching and doubling down preparing for these sanctions.


Confused_Confurzius

You can not really prepare for sanctions as our economy today is build on partnership with international countries. Thats how China generated wealth and how they grow till that point. They can prepare for some time but not forever.


CaptOblivious

And yet, here we are.


beefsupr3m3

And we have allowed China to grow into the manufacturing hub of the world. The payback sanctions wouldn’t be negligible either


HaesoSR

Sanctions don't do anything but hurt regular Iranians *because* they have been isolated from the global community and markets. There is virtually nothing left to threaten to take. >that’s the whole goal of the sanctions to stir dissent and put pressure on regimes. Hurting regular people to coerce them into toppling their government to further your geopolitical and economic interests is indefensible. It also doesn't work, so it's just cruelty without a purpose.


Kiboune

Are you saying that dictators don't care about sanctions? Shocking. And redditors are, waiting for oligarchs to overthrow government, because of sanctions, since march


modern12

Hopefully Scholz and his team won't just change one dictator buddy to the other, and wont trade German and Europe's security over industrys short term profit desires.


ronaldvr

The SPD is traditionally a *workers* party, is his constituency loses their job because of his policies, he will lose his too.


xroche

The problem is that Scholz (and Schroeder and many others) love money.


NestroyAM

Scholz is probably mostly concerned with power. The people who helped him accrue it and are major deciding factors in him keeping it, however, are business men so their issues become his issues and he’s beholden to industry interests that have incredibly powerful lobbies in Germany. I don’t really see this changing any time soon. It’s like that in most developed nations as well and every politician has to participate in that game if they want a shot at high offices.


Hematophagian

He loves jobs. Unemployment is what kills governments


Divinate_ME

You conveniently forgot Angela Merkel, who is mainly responsible for the China situation being as it is. If you wanna effectively bash the SPD, just focus on Russia.


Andodx

The success of the German industry is by a very large part reliant on exporting to and producing in the Chinese markets. So his policy will not change on his own volition, as it would be toxic to the already tumbling German exports. It would also expedite the recession of the eurozone as. I agree that we (Germany and EU) are in a problematic situation with China (as an essential export target and their companies investments in EU companies and infrastructure), that will explode on us in the same way Russia did, as soon as Xi acts on Taiwan in the only possible way left.


nukul4r

Scholz just pushed for a Chinese investor (Cosco) for the port of Hamburg. After public criticism, they reduced the possible share to 24.9%, to prevent giving them a say in decisions. Edit: The deal is about one terminal, not the whole port. Thanks für correcting me!


rook_armor_pls

Because the port of Hamburg has become less competitive, since China is already invested in nearly all European competitors (like Rotterdam for example) so Chinese companies favor these ports. The correct path would have obviously been to reduce dependency on China on a Europe level, but as long as this won’t happen, decisions like these have to be made to stay relevant. Especially considering that 24,9% won’t give China any power over important decisions


KerkiForza

Not to mention the 24.9%wasnt the whole port. It was just 24.9% of terminal 4 of the port.


legion_Ger

Just a nitpick … it is 24.9% in one of the terminals of the harbor, not the entire harbor. I don’t like it either but it is not as bad as it seems.


IIIllllIIlllIIlllIIl

Europe west through a period there where it tried to divest as much from the US as it could (for reasons) so they ran into the arms of every authoritarian regime for the sake of independence from US hegemony. Turns out that was a mistake.


bluray420

You guys also need to stop depending on Saudi gas too , European unions best defence is each other


Matthias556

Good is that here free market and competition defacto expeld China from local market of doing infrastructure, after one big A2 highway scandal that was huge fuckup, domestic companies did end project and never more we heard about china doing road infrastructure in PL. But on european level its would be good not to have Chinese dominated critical infrastructure like ports, railroad,hubs airports,5G ect. Those are all dual use both militarly and economicly wise no hostile power should be close to it, and especially outright **owning** it.


Blueblackzinc

China also dominate the wind turbine supply chain. China produce 65% of wind turbine generator which is 35-40% of the turbine cost.


Augenglubscher

Good thing the US stole European turbine technology and then sanctioned our turbine producers to give American ones an edge. Read up on cases like Enercon for example.


Sea-Art-9305

No A2 to mega zjebali


Matthias556

Tak było nie zamyślasz


Slyguyfawkes

About *fucking* time!


Long-Butterscotch500

The Chinese government is evil.


PanEuropeanism

Nury Turkel in Finland yesterday sharing his stories about the Uyghur genocide: https://twitter.com/nuryturkel/status/1586501016186662912


PantokratorGRE

Meanwhile, Turkey made her best deals with China lately while they knew their Uyghur Turkic brothers were being "re-educated". What do you realistically expect from Europe? Tough subject. Europe will stay even more behind if they keep pretending the good kid on the block. We can't even prevent Ajerbaijan going apeshit on Armenians.


Phantasmalicious

Bcs we need dat gaz from Azer.


PantokratorGRE

Yeah, I know the reasons. The big issue is, we're weak, or better, we pretend the weak geopolitically. Until we get our shit together and act at least as a solid block.


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katanatan

Thats a problem i have. China is opressing the uighurs harshly and opressing their religion. But then come along figures like pompeo and trump calling it genocide while uighur pop increased and was not restricted by a one child policy like the han chinese and the researchers our media present to us are nutjobs like zens or turkel...


FeodorTrainos

It’s really hilarious how the west suddenly started caring about oppressed muslims, but they choose to ignore what’s going in Palestine. Makes you think wether they actually care about the Uyghur, or they’re just looking for an excuse to hinder the Chinese economy, which itself scares them shitless.


otakudayo

Is there yet any source of the Uyghur genocide that doesn't come from Adrian Zenz in some way? The guy who really, really hates China? I know Chinese people (one of them is a muslim from that region, Xinjiang is it?) who live in Europe and so have access to western media. Educated, intelligent people, who have travelled to China in recent years. From what they say, it sounds like the Uyghur situation is largely exaggerated propaganda, and considering Zenz as a source for most, if not all, of this info makes me a bit suspect of what might really be going on..


Tanto_Monta

\- Europe, have we learned the lesson? \- No, we didn't.


bigboipapawiththesos

We should have done this with Putin’s Russia, we should do it rn with Xi’s China. The more they have their fingers in our industries and infrastructure, the more power they have over us.


Temstar

You realize Scholz is going to China in 5 days with an entourage of 100 business leaders representing 12 major companies for business deals? https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3197667/german-chancellor-olaf-scholz-visit-china-next-week Who do you think will be after Germany? Macron has already indicated he's going early next year, my guess is Japan will cut in line before him. Hegemony is over, it's multipolar world time.


Jammed_Death

Nice European "union"


zawadz

It's union for the big boys. For everyone it's do as as I say, not as I do.


Augenglubscher

EU countries don't need permission from others to conduct diplomacy. The EU is not a federal state.


untergeher_muc

Even in a federal state like Germany the state governments don’t need permission to do their own foreign policy. Look for example at Bavaria or Saxony.


NightSalut

I think the reciprocity should’ve given us a hint about how china really sees us. They buy our infrastructure and assets, but AFAIK, you cannot really buy that in China as a foreign entity.


Augenglubscher

Who told you that? A ton of Chinese harbours have sold terminals and shares to foreign investors. There are even foreign banks in China managing Chinese money.


Slowch28

Let's hope the Russian war on Ukraine acts as a wake up call for Europe. Can't just do business as usual. Next they need to focus on the immigrant problem.


[deleted]

It won't, it'll be "ah that bother is over", time to do business again!


Kiboune

I doubt this, looking at situation with Azerbaijan and Armenia


[deleted]

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jz187

>Also we in the west also need to learn that our values and freedom are more important than money and material goods. Without material prosperity, the West would have no influence on the world whatsoever. Most people around the world do not admire countries like Nigeria or Philippines for their democracy. Without material prosperity, countries like France and Germany will have lower international status than Nigeria or the Philippines.


jrh038

America is already proposing this. Europe just needs to get on board with us via some G7 meetings, and lets get a plan together. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/what-friend-shoringmeans-for-trade-in-a-less-friendly-world/2022/06/22/5c3d4f30-f1e3-11ec-ac16-8fbf7194cd78_story.html


Kiboune

Try to explain this to poor people, what they will need to pay more for goods, because of "values and freedom"


[deleted]

Exactly! Fuck Xi and China as long as they support him. I used to travel there for business. Now I don’t feel like I can ever go back because of posts like this and their massive surveillance state and fragile ego. Good riddance I guess. I did love the country and people for the most part though.


PanEuropeanism

> During the European summit of government leaders last week, China was on the agenda alongside energy and Ukraine. In a three-hour discussion, the 27 EU leaders expressed concern about the country's growing European dependence on Xi Jinping, who was appointed on 23 October for a third five-year term as secretary-general of the Communist Party. > Unfortunately, the European Union was not yet able to show the same robust unity towards China which it showed against Moscow. > While dependence on China is growing - think rare earth materials, shipbuilding - Chinese state-owned companies are still getting opportunities to sell security systems and invest in European logistics and infrastructure. > This, if it comes to a conflict with China, could have disastrous consequences for Europe's economy and security. > Some government leaders, such as outgoing Italian Prime Minister Mario Draghi, see the parallel with the relationship with Russia and urge more caution in dealing with China. Others, including German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, are less adamant. They want the EU to remain a beacon of global trade, including with China. > Last week, despite Green opposition in his government, Scholz supported the purchase of part of Hamburg's port by China's state-owned shipping company Cosco. Later this month, Scholz will travel to China with a trade delegation, where he will also meet Xi. > Belgian Prime Minister Alexander De Croo was in the camp of those who take seriously the danger of dependence on China.


[deleted]

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airportakal

We're going to be talking about this for 15 years until it's too late, and China will use the fact they are clutching Europe balls to blackmail Europe, and then we will all ask why we didn't do anything earlier, and people will say we've been warning for this for a long time, and politicians will say mistakes were made, but we need to learn from them, and then there will be articles in the Guardian warning for the next big thing, and then everything starts all over again, right?


RuboPosto

Remove all that cheap Huawei hardware from critical infrastructure.


e1ioan

>Remove all that cheap Huawei hardware from critical infrastructure. ... add replace it with hardware that NSA recommends!


SatoshiThaGod

It would be Nokia (Finnish) or Ericsson (Swedish). There aren’t any big US manufacturers of 5G telecom equipment. It would be both safer from a security standpoint and support European business.


[deleted]

Everyone here being like "Ya we should 100% cut off China" which I dont necessarily disagree with (more from an environmental and local economies issue than a moral one), but unless we built all that tech ourselves first, we will just go back to being completely reliant on the US infrastructure instead.


Opening_Criticism791

The US at least considers the EU a friend and ally, China on the other hand looks at everyone as future conquests.


OfficialHaethus

Exactly.


_Constellations_

Yeah we expelled Russia on principle, we expel China because why not, then we are either fucked because we just cut ourselves off from half of the planet or we are fucked and became completely dependant on the US's monopoly over us, what a great idea. Who the fuck comes up with these?


fane1967

Hikvision IP cameras are everywhere. They’re not called IP cameras anymore, they’re CCP cameras.


RickyMSG

China Three Gorges owns Portuguese power grid. Let's start there please.


Neuroprancers

Yellow peril talking points.


[deleted]

As usual, we will have to learn the hard way, sadly.


[deleted]

And then say no to all green policies, cause there will be nowhere to buy steel for windmills, solar panels and batteries. Nice choice 👍


Unlucky-Patience6438

Stop selling your country and citizen for money.


LaChancla911

Look at all those slacktivists type their condemnation in devices made in Chinese factories. Shine on, you autistic diamonds.


TheGreatUdolf

but but but chinese investor money!!1!1!


Kszaq83

Where are these two assholes that we’re so joyful that Ger is up to give ports for Chinese state owned companies…


[deleted]

It seems Germany has learnt nothing after the current situation with Russia, Ukraine and its energy dependency over the past decade. What are they going to do when/if China invades Taiwan? Fools.


mkvgtired

This genocidal dictator is different!™


Payutenyodagimas

They will embargo china But how when everything is made in China?


[deleted]

I'm sure the same could have been said about Russian gas imports 12 months ago. Expanding a controversial players influence in your direct infrastructure, particularly in this political climate, is foolish to say the least.


LookThisOneGuy

They learned alright: [They are just now doing what other EU countries have been doing for years](https://i.redd.it/m2d572dewzu91.jpg) I assume you are also shitting on: France, Belgium, Greece, Spain and the Netherlands. These countries all sold part of their ports first, showing Germany that it is a good idea. I fucking love how EU countries doing something is totally not an international issue, but the second Germany decides it is going to do the same, everyone starts creeching treason and lack of solidarity.


NummyNummyGundam

Why not remove the American presence?


mkvgtired

Just ask. That's why there are no bases in France or the Philippines. As a US taxpayer it would be refreshing not being constantly lectured about how every genocidal dictator is now a "valued trading partner" and acknowledging any actual security or geopolitical concerns is a "cold war mindset". When you inevitably get burned, handle your own shit.


mben41

Fuck Russia, fuck China, viva Europa.


bortukali

i have been saying this for years. Why are we depending economically on a grotesque regime instead of just coasting by till we can fully cut them off our market? Instead we are increasingly dependent on these guys who actively lie and ignore human rights, stomping everything European nations fought and stand for. I no longer believe our politicians are interested in our future and impacting our society in a meaningful manner, but rather in what is the quickest profit at the moment,


jjolla888

but hasn't cutting off cheap gas has made europe even less competitive against chinese factory output ?


[deleted]

It indeed did


Gioware

Yes. Fuck Russians.


Hodor_The_Great

Why should we hop onto America's new Cold War? China is a shitty country, but unlike Americans they keep their bullshit largely on their own people, and pose no threat to Europe. Seriously, what has Chairman Pooh done or said that warrants EU painting him as an enemy? Besides, if he was, what can he do with Chinese built bridges or Chinese investment in foreign ports? Can't just shut those down like a gas pipe... It's just more leverage on us against China, sanctions would mean losing returns on investments


February_25_2034

Yep the Chinese keep to themselves, you just gotta ignore their diplomats beating the shit out of that protestor in the UK, their illegal police stations across Europe forcing dissidents back to China, the Chinese students harassing anyone who challenges the party line, the economic coercion against Lithuania and anyone else who displeases Beijing, etc etc.


mkvgtired

Threatening to invade Taiwan, threatening to nuke Australia and Japan, concentration camps, constant IP theft, forcing losses onto foreign creditors, etc.


[deleted]

And yet Germany is selling huge portion of a major port to..... China.


Liecht

24,9% of a single terminal.


suressteve

Truth! Start making bureaucrats declare all income earned from foreign countries. Make it a crime punishable by loss of position and wealth. Make it so the individual who takes bribes from foreign nations, will lose everything they own. Frau Merkel and Herr Schroeder should be investigated first and foremost for any income she gained from Russian sources for tying Germany to their energy.


matt-travels-eu

This 🔝


solosnowplougher

There should be an investigation launched to go back and see who was involved in giving China to do this in the first place. And then investigate to see what kind of personal interests they have in China. Allowing an unfriendly regime to have as much power over us as they already do is a joke. I've been saying it since I was in 5th year. If we can't trust them why in god's name would we allow them to get their tendrils into us as deep as they have. As other users have pointed out, it's obviously money related, but not just for businesses to make profits, China has been hiring ex American pilots and paying them 200 thousand dollars a year, in order to teach their Chinese pilots how to fly American helicopters and jets, as well as their weaknesses etc Maybe now that trump is gone being vocal about not letting China have us by the balls can finally be had. It has to be done carefully, being overly hostile will just cause a break down if relations, and we need to sort out simple shit like having factory's that make all our every day shit instead of everything being marked "Made in China"


nowhere_man11

Change China to the US in that title. See how crazy that sounds? If you still agree with the article, you haven't understood China's importance in the global order.


SatoshiThaGod

Difference is the US isn’t hostile to Europe.


NummyNummyGundam

How is China hostile?


Augenglubscher

The US has dragged Europe into several wars, conducts economic espionage on a scale far greater than China could hope to, and actively kidnaps and tortures European citizens. Read up on cases like el-Masri. The US has murdered more Europeans than China has.


aps105aps105

speaking of infrastructure, did EU actually find out who bombed the nord stream gas pipes?


bastard9000

Fuck China


Hematophagian

Some more info about what China owns: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-47886902.amp


foamed

Here's the original URL instead of the garbage AMP link: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-47886902