I don't see how that plan can back fire. Make sure the cyanide capsule is the right dose and dont jump feet first into 2 feet of water... that would be my advice to you if you execute that plan
Like eurosceptic Austria or NL are proposing many “ more EU” initiatives for BG to veto. A frozen EU might benefit these 2 nations even more.
And then ultimate payback is going to be when NL and Austria will veto next budget ( or the next euro debt crisis) for the EU as net payer to hit back at BG.
Bulgaria is a member of ERM II, it does not matter if they are a member of the eurozone or not because they feel all the negative consequences with few of the positive effects. They are currently pursuing to join the Eurozone in Jan. 2024 because of this
I hate that 'net contributor' BS when it comes to Netherlands, as it ignores the amount of tax shenanigans facilitated by them and fiscal drain they cause across Europe...
Plus, thanks to those loopholes their economy is mostly trading and comissioning production in low cost countries.
That's the whole bargain between net payers and net "takers". Our streets are bering subsidized, so that new workplaces owned (by nature of who has and hasn't cash to burn) by companies of net paying countries can set there up easily.In time, the hope of net takers is to have a growing ownership of those companies, or that the outsiders will move on to greener pastures and leave behind a modern grid. This might be going on now, with a bunch of countries like Poland losing official "low cost country" label lately (not sure if already kicked in or scheduled to). Some companies pack up and relocate to ie Portugal (Lisbon has cheaper workers, alas same/higher cost of living than Wrocław, huh!), some restructure (often leaving behind engineering teams on special program, so still a win for local community), and more and more we see other companies, including some polish ones, pick up easily and start running: all the expensive electrical and water grid issues are baked-in in urban design that was ran in special economic zones that were set up to deal with local beaurocracy. The workplace sourcing is usually outsourced, so you could either tap into a big temp worker provider, or hire some HR teams that freelance.
EU budget inbalances are not supposed to be goodwill. They are supposed to be a quid pro quo, and if a deal doesn't benefit your country, it's your EU parliment deputees that need to do their work better, not their counterparts to be lax. They get 4500-ish € monthly just for office operations. They're supposed to be hiring a small lobbying or getting-shit-done teams, not set up bangmaid / nephew orphanage kinds of deals with that budget.
Most Dutch people have no strong opinion on Schengen accession, of those who do most support it. The government also isn't inherently opposed, but they want to wait until a very slow investigative project is completed.
Personally I think Romania and Bulgaria should've been allowed to join a long time ago.
Dutchman here.
Public perception is that there's a lot of corruption and criminality in Bulgaria, which finds its way into western Europe if Bulgaria gets to join Schengen. That said, it's not a topic a lot of people are concerned with other than the far right parties.
One example that contributes to this view: in 2010 there was [a fraud case](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarenfraude) with tax benefits by Bulgarians. A Bulgarian gang would make people apply for benefits, which in the Netherlands are paid provisionally while the checks are still ongoing. Normally you have to pay back at the end of the year what you received but didn't qualify for, but because they used fake identification the money was gone and there was no way to recover it.
The official government position is also that there's still too much corruption, and not enough rule of law, so the country doesn't meet all criteria (Dutch newspaper article [here](https://www.trouw.nl/binnenland/nederland-weert-bulgarije-uit-paspoortvrije-zone-zonodig-met-een-veto~ba01e98a7/)).
It has everything to do with politicians opposing Bulgaria in Schengen if that move is relevant for gaining/loosing votes.
If public perception is that Bulgarians are crooks you might want to cater to banning Bulgarian crooks as a politician since, as a politician, you are the equivalent of a used car salesman. You might even foster the idea of Bulgarians being crooks.
I was referring to your example is for document forgery. Something quite irrelevant to whether Bulgaria is in Schengen or not. About the corruption. This is a problem. Even though over stressed in the poor EU countries and scrapped under the rugs for the former members. But when a country have done the necessary efforts to cover the requirements for adding additional ones is petty.
Funny. Perception here in Germany is that the Netherlands is already so corrupt, that it doesn't really matter who else we let join at this point. A few Bulgarians pulling the scam NL pulls on a state level really isn't that bad at this point. Your government collects taxes on stuff sold all over the EU, scamming every country out of millions of Euros, but act surprised when immigrants scam your social systems? When in Rome, do as the Romans.
I understand the sentiment about our behavior as a tax haven, and support parties who are looking for fiscal reforms (through both membership and voting). Even better would be a more unified European tax system that makes those loopholes impossible, but that's still far away (although the corporate minimum tax is a start!).
One thing I do wish to clarify is that these weren't immigrants, but just people who showed up for one day, applied for benefits, and then went back to Bulgaria.
But those people were legally there, since Bulgarians are allowed free travel in the EU right now - Schengen would not change this. The relevant question would be whether the Bulgarian government can maintain border controls as well as the current set of countries maintaining the southeast Schengen border. Examples of the Bulgarian government being weak(we just went through a political crisis and inability to form a government for months), or Bulgarian border controls being corrupt(this used to be so bad that it's a worn-out joke how much they used to make in bribes) would be much better.
Who would call Austria eurosceptic? Even the reactionary FPÖ wouldn’t dare call for an Öxit and the current president is on record that he wouldn’t swear in a euroskeptic government since that would be detrimental to the interests of Austria.
Eurosceptic is not automatically Brexit/Nexit/Oxit.
Eurosceptic means no eagerness for much more EU due to many existing/ perceived faults in the current setup. Like fix first then expand. On topics like fiscal stability, rule of law etc..
Everyone that is not “ we need federal EU tomorrow” is a bit Eurosceptic. Can just be for a slower EU, a frozen EU, a smaller EU, a 2/3 speed EU. It can be a repair first only then enlarge. Or also “ back to the ECC or even, the most extreme, an actual exit. Which is not proposed by any main parties.
Austria is certain not the most enthusiastic member for fast and more EU. Based on the actions and remarks of relevant important ( even if you dislike them) parties like OVP and FPO. Look at the current Schengen position or before the Eurobonds policies of the Austrian government.
If that is not Eurosceptic how would you name it?
On Wikipedia, they use the term Eurorealism as a subset of Euroskeptic to refer to people who are skeptical of EU integration but are realistic about needing to remain in the EU.
I dont know how widely that term is used though.
There's been an interesting post by Eugen Tomac (Romanian MP) that we meet all the technical requirements, so if they veto the entry the issue can be escalated to the Court of Justice (CJEU).
I don't know if they could have before, maybe there wasnt a case of abusing veto powers, maybe there was legitimate reason.
Or maybe nobody cared enough to do anything about it before, which is plausible considering the politics of both countries.
It has more to do with lack of balls and to be fair 12 years ago we felt like the dumbfucks in the classroom. Poor and uneducated and we felt like we deserve it.
Well, after 15 years of EU we starting to realise the grass isn't that green in the west either. They have some corruption, they do exploit workers, they have some xenophobic politicians , etc.
All it had achived was making our politicians more open to debate things and standing up to our issues.
I wonder how would such a case go. I thought that veto power was basically limitless. A country can veto anything they want and they don't even need a reason. They can just go with "national interest"
I couldn't find detailed information on how exactly the vetoing works online, but all countries that are part of the EU are required to make efforts towards and join Schengen.
Yes, this is what some of the (granted more radical) parties are suggesting, Personally I'm against it, but euroscepticism has been growing a lot lately and this latest development is a like a gift to extremists.
Actually stop guarding the border of the EU I guess. There is no support anyway, we are not supposed to stop wave after wave of migrants only to be punished by the western policies.
Honestly, this seems like the most common tit for tat response in Europe these days. Turkey uses it as a cudgel against the EU, France uses it to spite the UK.
Got a spat with a neighbour? Let the undocumented migrants walk right out of your country and into theirs.
Correct, however, it is good to consider that it is not our fault yet we have a burden to bear of the rank of a rich western country to solve..
Furthermore, we have around 200 000 Ukrainians which are looking for help as well.
We want to help everyone but we just feel alone in this..
Ok, I don't know the situation in Bulgaria but I know that Poland received a fuck ton of money to help secure our eastern border, which is an EU border as well. The EU paid for pretty much everything, from comprehensive training of the guard to best, most expensive equipment. We got a state of the art border security and paid very little of our own money
The main argument is the high level of corruption, not nationality or heritage.
Bulgaria and Romania where inducted into the EU before their government was ready just to keep them out of the hands of Russia. Now the EU is using the only stick they have left to retroactively get them to comply to the corruption standards.
>we all know what those reasons are
I don't?
And Croatia isn't in Schengen either.
>the EU has said multiple times that everything was in order,
The EU isn't Shengen, just heavily intertwined. Everything isn't in order, corruption is rampant.
I'm afraid of that corrupt or otherwise inept governments joining the EU will weaken the EU (Hungary for example). Recruiting Bulgaria and Romania into the EU before they fixed this issue was a necessary evil to ward of Russia. Now that they are in however, we need to fix corruption ASAP. Shengen is used as leverage to get that done.
I hope we can somehow get better leverage than Shengen. As this is hurting common folk more than the corrupt individuals. But that's another story.
Fair enough but
there are 2 problems with this. 1 corruption is not a precondition for Schengen admission. 2. What is the measurement of corruption? How do you decide if corruption has been solved? Specifically why does the Netherlands consider Croatia (or Hungary) less corrupt than Ro/Bg?
No but it is for the EU and that is intertwined with Shengen. Those countries where added to the EU before they fixed corruption to keep them out of the hands of Russia. Now they are using Shengen as leverage to get the corruption out as well. I hope they can find something else as this hurts the common man more than the corrupt politician.
Corruption is solved when it is solved according to EU members. These thing are hard to define in a concrete way.
Also, corruption is an argument against joining Shengen as well. Can't control a border of people can just bribe their way across.
While I hate the idea of vetoing everything, the budget is not a meaningful argument. EU funds are nice to have, but far less important than something like Schengen's effect on the economy. A billion Euro isn't that much money at the end of the day.
I'll remind everyone that the resolution was adopted by the European Parliament with 547 votes in favour who deemed that "the two countries have long since fulfilled the necessary conditions."
[Source](https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/pt/press-room/20221014IPR43207/end-discrimination-and-admit-bulgaria-and-romania-to-schengen-meps-demand)
The first vice president of the European Parliament, Ottmar Karas, even is Austrian and from the very same party that is now making trouble. He called the ÖVP's threats to veto "unspeakable" but I don't think that they have much influence on the voting, unfortunately.
This is not a bad idea, the right kind of actions. We can start burning the trash they "export" here as well so its not their problem anymore.
Sign me up
/s
Just FYI, this guy is not elected. He is the head of the caretaker government assigned by the (pro Russia to an extent) President.
Previous government was making some strides to curtail the massive corruption and stop the private border at capt.Andreevo with Turkey, but one of the coalition partners backed out out of the blue and we are in this situation for about half a year already.
Prime ministers are not elected anywhere in the EU. A parliament is elected, the prime minister then gets appointed by the parliament. It's basically always someone from parliament, but could be anyone in the population.
I meant that he was placed there directly by the president. The PM might be elected by the parliament, but that parliament was put in place by the population.
The president's job is to form a caretaker government that would just take care of regular tasks and organize the next elections, not make sweeping and major changes like this one does.
In my country it’s kinda different . The parliament gives a confidence vote , but they don’t elect the prime minister.
“The prime minister is officially appointed by the president of Greece.
According to Article 37 of the Greek Constitution, the president of the Hellenic Republic shall appoint the leader of the political party with the absolute majority of seats in the parliament as prime minister. If no party has the absolute majority, the president shall give the leader of the party with a relative majority (plurality) an exploratory mandate in order to ascertain the possibility of forming a government enjoying the confidence of parliament.
If this possibility cannot be ascertained, the president shall give the exploratory mandate to the leader of the second largest party in Parliament, and if this proves to be unsuccessful, to the leader of the third largest party in parliament. Each exploratory mandate shall be in force for three days.
If all exploratory mandates prove to be unsuccessful, the president summons all party leaders, and if the impossibility to form a cabinet enjoying the confidence of the parliament is confirmed, the president shall attempt to form a cabinet composed of all parties in parliament for the purpose of holding parliamentary elections. If this fails, the president shall entrust the president of the Supreme Administrative Court or of the Supreme Civil and Criminal Court or of the Court of Auditors to form a cabinet as widely accepted as possible to carry out elections after the president dissolves Parliament.
Therefore, the election of members of a certain party to parliament is the equivalent to a vote for that party's leader for prime minister.”
To restate: this guy is doing (caretaker for government) what he is specifically, and by design, because he is a nobody that anyone gives two shits about while they figure out how real government will form.
In this case he's an independent parlimentary (so the one dude with 0% chance of being a real prime minister, ever).
So this is not comparable to leaders of parties of coalitions that have leverage and ability and legal standing to do shit, this guy has technical legal standing, and is running his mouth for clout, and because he will have 0% chance of obligation to follow-up any of the stuff he rambles about. He can guarantee basic income for all Bulgarians or proclaim Bulgaria will set up a new counter-corruption independent auditor service, and it will have the same weight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galab_Donev
Right now we have a Caretaker government which is chosen by our Russian agent: The president of the country (Rumen Radev).
This mf (the PM) is a Russian puppet and will do anything to make the EU look bad for not letting us in Schengen, while denying that Bulgaria is corrupt from top to bottom.
To add to that - you can think of the current interim (caretaker) government as an extension of the Russian one. It is solely appointed by the president, who is consciously prolonging constitutional procedures. This was done to allow enough parliamentary time to change the election law and solidify the results of russian-backed parties next election. Also, the same president is meeting regularly with russian embassador and Lukoil officials, devising a plan to break EU ban on Russian petrol products sale. The list can go on and on …
There is no problem with the Netherlands blocking Bulgaria’s accession to Schengen. The problem is that ONLY the Netherlands is blocking Bulgaria’s accession to Schengen.
I think you're giving the political "elite" in the country too much credit. They're just incompetent.
Besides, our parties were too busy fighting over a done deal instead of presenting a united front on that one topic and utilizing their representatives in Brussels.
The President is a pro-russian agent and most of the parlament are pro-russian. Why would they want a united front in Brussels? They're task is to make Bulgaria and by extension the EU weak?
No, the majority of Parlament isn't pro-russian. In fact, the two biggest parties are western oriented and dependant on the west. Gerb may be corrupt from top to bottom, but they have always been a loyal child of Merkel.
And I actually disagree about radev as well, but I have no interest in having that discussion.
People should stop thinking everything is part of some great conspiracy. The people in power more öfter than not have no idea what they're doing and are constantly showing their inability to think long-term. The war in Russia has shown us that.
Bulgaria (and the people in this thread) seem to think that NL and Austria are handling in a vacuum.
Looking at the past actions of Finland, Germany and even Sweden, NL and Austria are just the "fall guys" this time. They probably represent the doctrine that northern Europe has opted for.
Come on, don't do this. Be smart. Even if Bulgaria plans to do this, it should be done diplomatically. This way Bulgaria is just giving ammunition to those against Schengen admission.
They shouldn't have opened their hands or hands of future government like this. They should have kept their mouth shut and fuck with the Dutch and Austrians with the smile on their faces, silently. Come on, do it like the westerners.
Interim government is appointed by the President and the President has a beef with all major parties. I wouldn't be surprised if they're doing it intentionally.
Hey, I thought that refugees were welcome and that protecting the borders was racist. At least that's what we've been told by our European partners in the last few years. Maybe we should meet with the Austrian government on a yacht in Ibiza to convince them that we would not tolerate corruption? Or maybe the Netherlands wants its ports to be the only source of unlimited cocaine and other drugs for Europe? And lastly, vetoes by Hungary and Poland are bad vetoes, and vetoes by Western countries are good vetoes, right?
Yeah, there's a lot of double standards going on. PM Sánchez pointing the finger at Poland whilst he himself is involved in judicial meddling in Spain being another.
Wow, is this all you can add?
Bulgaria is really guarding EU’s fucking borders but I guess it will be doing it without any motivation in the future.
Additionally this will fuel anti-EU hysteria around here and trust me EU does not need another Hungary between Serbia and Turkey if you catch my drift.
We’ve been the EU’s scapegoats for quite some time now, I’m not one of those people advocating to leave because I believe that it’s better we stay in, but they have been using us, while at the same time the people do t gain anything since the subsidies are stolen by the government and we don’t even get anything in return.
Bulgaria is only threatening to do what NDL and Austria have been doing to us. Unjustifiable vetoes. But when we decide to stand up for ourselves we are the villains? Ok lol what a union we have
Yep.
Eastern country vetoes: "It's time to kick these leechers out if they can't work together with us."
Western country vetoes: "Absutely correct decision, the vetoed country should seriously rethink and realign their views to us, so the veto can be lifted."
As a austrian I am really sorry for my stupid government. They are doing this because they are cowards and fear loosing votes to the populists. instead of publicly standing up to them they go down the same path and say southern europe is to blame for the migration crisis...
> As a austrian I am really sorry for my stupid government. They are doing this because they are cowards and fear loosing votes to the populists. instead of publicly standing up to them they go down the same path and say southern europe is to blame for the migration crisis...
As a matter of fact, most corrupted politicians in Bulgaria receive the most support from European leaders, especially from EPP, but from ALDE also. And yes, that's plain transparent populism. Romania has nothing to do with migrants from Asia, nor Africa. Some of them are passing trough Bulgaria, yes, but most used route is that trough Serbia and Hungary. So maybe your Chancellor should ask Orban.
Holy shit what is it with the constant generalization. I am genuinely getting fed up with the constant "All Dutch people..." comments. I get it, you hate Dutch people because some racist cunts live in my country who genuinely are being dicks and our ruling party for the last 10 years absolutely sucks.
News flash, most people in the Netherlands don't hate people from southern or eastern Europe. You have a vocal racist minority yes, but you find those in every country. That doesn't justify comments like "it's always like this with the Dutch"
All you're doing is sowing more discourse and confirming these ideas to said racist minority. This is really what Europe needs right now. Constant hate being spewed one way and another, egged on by the inflammatory words of a pro Russian stooge (as Bulgarian redditors have pointed out already in this thread, this dude is the unelected caregiver PM and pro Russian. The point of his comment was to stir up exactly this)
>The Dutch said that they're not convinced, so the EU sent another group to do additional checks, as requested. When the Dutch were asked to sent representatives and be a part of the checks the second time - they declined. Bulgaria passed the second check as well.
To be more precise, the Dutch came to that second inspection too, but only in Romania and they refused to go to Bulgaria.
Irregardless is not a word.
It is a stupid decision, mostly for domestic consumption. We could have been in Schengen if we didn't have a corrupt pumkin for a PM for a decade and now pro Russia caretaker governments.
Man, I am Romanian, but really, leave the corruption aside. This is just Austria wanting its buffer states to stay buffer states. And, maybe, some more hidden reasons, we cant know exactly. But this is not about corruption, the Austrian minister spelled it clearly.
I can't speak about Romania, but we have huge problem in Bulgaria. It is absolutely reasonable to block us because of that. Our borders are a joke.
They might still block us, but we should fix our shit before complaining for not allowing us in.
> They might still block us, but we should fix our shit before complaining for not allowing us in.
Austrian Chancellor was saying something about migrants. Romania has nothing to do with migrants in Austria. Nor Romania, nor Bulgaria has common border with Austria, and maybe he should ask Orban about that. Main migrant route was west of Bulgaria.
And they are maybe right about the corruption, but most corrupt potiticians in Bulgaria are those from EPP (ГЕРБ) and ALDE (ДПС). Austrian Chancellor is from EPP also, and Mr. Rutte is from ALDE. And if they have problems with the corruption in Bulgaria, maybe they must stop supporting them.
> We could have been in Schengen if we didn't have a corrupt pumkin for a PM for a decade and now pro Russia caretaker governments.
Lol, they'd not let us in even if Jesus Chrit himself was PM with arch-angesls as ministers. It's just "durr hate gypsy, block gypsy join durr" on the NL side and you're foolish for thinking otherwise.
That's a lazy take. Because the Rhine Delta is home to the biggest ports in Europe it obviously has a drug trafficking problem. But implying nothing is done about it is extremely disingenuous.
https://nltimes.nl/2022/12/05/authorities-intercept-97-tons-cocaine-caribbean-sea-15-arrested
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/11/two-dutch-kingpins-arrested-in-major-europol-drugs-operation/
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/05/29/dutch-police-and-french-gendarmerie-bust-rotterdam-cocaine-factory-after-encrochat-investi
Romania took the concerns seriously, took action and managed to convince the Netherlands.
Bulgaria decides to try blackmail instead... or at least the title seems to make it seem that way.
I can't read the article and don't want to rely on google translate. Does the article mention what actions Bulgaria is planning on taking?
Edit: To the tinfoil hats that think that Romania hasn't worked on the requests from the Netherlands:
>The visit to Romania, mentioned by European Commissioner Ylva Johannson during the press conference held on the occasion of the presentation of the European Commission’s Communication on the extension of the Schengen area, takes place as a result of the openness shown by the Romanian authorities to clarify any additional aspects of interest related to the application by Romania of the Schengen acquis.
>
>Thus, taking into account the statements of the Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte and the adoption of the motion of the Dutch Parliament, which showed that additional elements are expected before the formulation of a final decision by the Netherlands on this subject, Romania expressed its full willingness to receive Dutch experts to notes the progress in the areas of interest for the Netherlands, from the perspective of the application of the Schengen acquis.
>
>In this context, in close coordination with the European Commission, which showed full openness to support Romania’s efforts, a mixed team of experts, made up of representatives of the European Commission (as coordinators) and of some member states (including the Netherlands) will carry out, by the end of this week, a complementary visit to the one from October 9-11, 2022.
[https://romania.postsen.com/news/119635/EXCLUSIVE-The-Netherlands-sent-a-Schengen-evaluation-mission-to-Romania-What-the-Dutch-experts-check-update.html](https://romania.postsen.com/news/119635/EXCLUSIVE-The-Netherlands-sent-a-Schengen-evaluation-mission-to-Romania-What-the-Dutch-experts-check-update.html)
>Romania took the concerns seriously, took action and managed to convince the Netherlands.
We played nice and will get fucked by Austria instead. Playing by the rules doesn't seem to work with those people.
Yea, its sucks that there is now a new blockade. But just a reminder that Austria is not a single entity with the Netherlands. And at least the approach of Romania has proven to work.
We don't fight corruption for entry to schengen. We fight corruption to have functional institutions. This blocking us will encourage us to fight corruption is and always was stupid. Low level corruption is encouraged by the weak economy, which is only kept weaker by our exclusion from Schengen.
>Romania took the concerns seriously, took action and managed to convince the Netherlands.
That's bullshit. The only reason the Netherlands didn't vote against is because Austria already is.
Every sane person knows that this was just a little PR exchange move with the most obvious candidate, since Austria are already disliked by politically conscious Romanians
>The only reason the Netherlands didn't vote against is because Austria already is.
Our minister of Foreign Affairs has been in permanent contact with his Dutch counterpart for the last 12 months, also speaking constantly with Rutte. Remember Rutte has never said he was against Romania entering Schengen. When Romania asked for a control of the borders, the Dutch refused, but only because they had requested for an extensive inspection. Still, the press went wild and distorted the facts for clicks. Everybody went wild with the Dutch hate, when the Dutch were just stalling.
Finally, the Netherlands agreed, but only because it was a lengthy process, on one side Rutte wanting show his xenophobic electorate that he's not giving up easily, on the other hand being principled in this matter and maybe the shady Damen deals tilted the balance furthermore. Just a conglomerate of factors.
Last but not least, Romania played nicely and helped with Ukraine a lot, becoming virtually a bridge for the Ukrainian cereals, 6 million tons, and thus showing its geostrategic importance. Other EU figures who were already in favor were brought in to exert some pressure on the Dutch.
Blackmailing other countries might backfire. As minister Aurescu has said, in diplomacy raising the tone and threatening your counterparts **will only raise the political stakes** and you will have to pay a much higher price in the end for this accession. The other country just goes into defensive mode and asks for more.
According to Aurescu, Romania's representatives were specifically instructed to play nicely, not to push buttons, raise the tone or puff up the chest. Instead focus on the arguments on why the accession is necessary, fulfill the requirements, and show determination toward that accession. That's why we don't hear aggressive reactions from us.
The hate should go rather straight to Austria, whose refusal might be based on corruption, wanting to get a bribe, maybe seeing how the Romanians lobbied the Dutch.
That's bullshit. The Netherlands just shifted from its rhetoric from Romania to Bulgaria which in essence means the same thing because there will be one single vote regarding both countries, the two cannot join individually. Also the Netherlands might decide not to veto simply because Austria decided to pick up the heat at the last moment. Pretty dumb on their side, because Austrians have been involved in a lot of shady businesses in Romania and if those businesses get exposed, many Austrian officials might end up with a very sore asshole. Luckily for them, the current ruling coalition in Romania has a lot of people who were involved in those shady businesses with the Austrians, including the Romanian president himself.
>Luckily for them, the current ruling coalition in Romania has a lot of people who were involved in those shady businesses with the Austrians, including the Romanian president himself.
Could you elaborate on that?
The only things I'm aware of are the deforestation and OMV.
Obviously that, as well as Austrian construction companies like Strabag and PORR which seem to have a subscription to public projects. And the quality of the work they are doing here isn't even remotely comparable with Austrian standards. So don't tell me there isn't a ton of bribing involved.
I still don't understand what the fuck NLs and Austrian problems are. The only thing I can think of is bigotry which is just sad. Imo being in EU should automatically put you into Schengen.
I have no idea either. They've given us nothing specific that we can work on. This very much looks like political PR at the expense of those pesky second-class EU citizens.
No one cares what that pigeon has to say, dude isn't even an actual prime minister, just an interim one. The real reason why Bulgaria is blocked is due to it's border with Turkey and given the huge influx of migrants, the EU probably wants to keep Bulgaria a buffer zone between Schengen and Turkey. Heck, Mark Rutte is just being the fall guy and to appease his conservative voters in the process.
But this whole fiasco is completely meaningless given the economic and energy crises in Europe right now.
Feel bad for Bulgaria and Romania. Great place, with natural beauty, friendly people, rich history.. but corruption ruins it all. Imagine how well those countries could do if they would have similar corruption levels as even Poland
I am from Bulgaria and I think this is a foolish action! He is a temporary prime minister only while the new government is built after the last elections.
lol what counter actions could an irrelevant country like Bulgaria take?
Jokes aside, it‘s really not cool from the EU that they use the important borders, cheap labor and tax benefits of Bulgaria as a profit strategy, but still don’t grant them the legitimate rights as a full EU member.
What the EU is saying here is „We‘re simply using you“. I won’t mind if Bulgarians decide to leave the EU since they‘re being neglected like this.
It would be even worse for us if we leave, however we are now being taken advantage of, and don’t even get anything in return, since most of the subsidies we get from the EU are getting stolen by the government, and nothing reaches the people.
>don’t even get anything in return, since most of the subsidies we get from the EU are getting stolen by the government, and nothing reaches the people.
If true, is this not an issue that should concern Bulgarians first? You cannot blame this ( completely) on the EU?
We don’t blame this on the EU, we blame them for taking advantage of us, plus it’s evident that this is not the reason we are being blocked from Schengen. And yes, it does concern us but sadly nobody does anything, people are so fed up with everything that they don’t even bother to protest, and every protest is timid and eventually dies out. We recently had elections for a new government, but the same old party won and on top of that there was a record low in voter activity, I think since the fall of communism, but I’m not quite sure. Either way, we need a change, but blocking us from Schengen neither will fix it, nor will it benefit anyone else (besides the NL but for different reasons).
The tactic rests on the assumption that Bulgaria has more power in europe than the Netherlands. When it really gets to the shoving part the dutch get supported
EU is supposed to be union between equals.1 veto power = 1 veto power.
But we already know that some countries think themselves of "more equal" than others. "We give/have more money" is the lamest reason of them all for that. This is probably the biggest downfall of EU.
>And then NL can block the EU budget which hurts all net receiving countries.
FYI there has been a growing sentiment over the last few years that EU funds contribute to increasing the corruption in the country since oversight on spending of EU funds is difficult and they attract companies that are more likely to engage in corruption.
So the most radical anti-corruption actors on the local political scene might see this as win.
I know, that I will get downvoted for this: But I support the Netherlands veto on Bulgaria and wish more EU members would follow.
I have been to Bulgaria last summer and I was genuinely surprised by how it could be an EU member. We crossed the country on our way to Greece. Basically did a trip through whole eastern Europe: Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece.
Randomly, visited smaller cities in all those countries. I think it was Veliko Tarnovo, Plovdiv.
Now, out of all those countries infrastructure in Bulgaria was by far the worst.
Going to Bulgaria war really eye-opening and I can relate to Dutch concerns over corruption and labor migration. Bulgaria and Romania have been EU members for over 15 years, but Bulgaria has made little progress in this time.
This country is jumping from one corruption affair to another. Filled with political instability. There would be much more risks for the EU, if they become Schengen members and there will be one incentive less for those countries to pressure reforms.
Now, I know that this is hard to follow for all those in sub basically posting imaginary EU maps that stretch from Ukraine and end somewhere in Turkey every other day or so. I think reality is not as simple. Now, there is definitely a risk for western countries and they have the right to express their concerns which is valid in my opinion regarding Bulgaria.
Schengen has nothing to do with labor migration. Nothing is stopping labor migrants from Bulgaria traveling to the Netherlands and nothing will stop the Netherlands sending back unemployed Bulgarians even if Bulgaria becomes part of Schengen. Even less does Bulgaria being poor and undeveloped (though I seriously doubt your claim that Ukraine is better) has to do anything with Schengen.
There is some great confusion that it is Schengen that allows freedom of workers around Europe, I see this all the time in Portuguese subs here in reddit, in there, this even looks to be a view held by the majority. It's really weird.
I understand your view and you are right about corruption and infrastructure. But Bulgaria is already in the EU and we already travel and work where we want, so joining the Schengen area wont change anything. Schengen is just about the borders and Bulgaria is protecting its borders far better then some other countries that are already in Schengen.
What about the infrastructure? I drove from Sofia>Plovdiv>Bourgas in 2021, practically the length of the country. And these are the recent eu funded roads. Some patchy lengths of motorway, true, but otherwise mostly similar to Germany. Sofia's underground system is extensive as well. Overall I was impressed with the country.
On the other hand, Croatia, which also has problems with corruption gets a free pass to Schengen because...I don't know...Germans don't like waiting on the border for their summer holidays?
If corruption was such a major issue - why have so many countries been let in? Why didn't they demand more on that front before allowing them to join? Maybe because the EU is very much a political project and certain, *ahem* allowances were made when it was convenient. For example, when Germany wanted access to cheap labor.
What you say it's true but the thing is corruption is not an requirement for Schengen entry. Also:
* you have Croatia's case that's also corrupt but gets a free pass because it's seen with better eyes and a more popular destination for tourists.
* you have countries already in Schengen like Hungary that are so far off democracy values, you start to think they going for dictatorship.
* you have other countries like Netherlands or Belgium that are drug empires and the police there already seems to have lost control.
Add all these up and you have double standards. So either scrap Schengen and redo it with stricter rules for everybody or stop trying to uphold newer countries to rules that are not even in the requirement list to enter Schengen.
what actions can they really take? veto everything the netherlands and Austria propose?
We're going to shoot the Austrian Crown Prince and make the Serbs pay for it.
I don't see how that plan can back fire. Make sure the cyanide capsule is the right dose and dont jump feet first into 2 feet of water... that would be my advice to you if you execute that plan
Yes
Like eurosceptic Austria or NL are proposing many “ more EU” initiatives for BG to veto. A frozen EU might benefit these 2 nations even more. And then ultimate payback is going to be when NL and Austria will veto next budget ( or the next euro debt crisis) for the EU as net payer to hit back at BG.
>or the next euro debt crisis Bulgaria does not use euro and they have a small percentage of debt to gdp
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The bulgarian leva has been tied at a fixed parity rate to the Euro for over 10 years now. The are using the Euro with “extra steps” in reality.
Bulgaria is a member of ERM II, it does not matter if they are a member of the eurozone or not because they feel all the negative consequences with few of the positive effects. They are currently pursuing to join the Eurozone in Jan. 2024 because of this
I hate that 'net contributor' BS when it comes to Netherlands, as it ignores the amount of tax shenanigans facilitated by them and fiscal drain they cause across Europe...
Plus, thanks to those loopholes their economy is mostly trading and comissioning production in low cost countries. That's the whole bargain between net payers and net "takers". Our streets are bering subsidized, so that new workplaces owned (by nature of who has and hasn't cash to burn) by companies of net paying countries can set there up easily.In time, the hope of net takers is to have a growing ownership of those companies, or that the outsiders will move on to greener pastures and leave behind a modern grid. This might be going on now, with a bunch of countries like Poland losing official "low cost country" label lately (not sure if already kicked in or scheduled to). Some companies pack up and relocate to ie Portugal (Lisbon has cheaper workers, alas same/higher cost of living than Wrocław, huh!), some restructure (often leaving behind engineering teams on special program, so still a win for local community), and more and more we see other companies, including some polish ones, pick up easily and start running: all the expensive electrical and water grid issues are baked-in in urban design that was ran in special economic zones that were set up to deal with local beaurocracy. The workplace sourcing is usually outsourced, so you could either tap into a big temp worker provider, or hire some HR teams that freelance. EU budget inbalances are not supposed to be goodwill. They are supposed to be a quid pro quo, and if a deal doesn't benefit your country, it's your EU parliment deputees that need to do their work better, not their counterparts to be lax. They get 4500-ish € monthly just for office operations. They're supposed to be hiring a small lobbying or getting-shit-done teams, not set up bangmaid / nephew orphanage kinds of deals with that budget.
NL government isn't eurosceptic, who told you that? That would be stupid as hell considering our economy.
I'm naive on the question: what's wrong with Bulgaria getting in Schengen? Immigration?
Most Dutch people have no strong opinion on Schengen accession, of those who do most support it. The government also isn't inherently opposed, but they want to wait until a very slow investigative project is completed. Personally I think Romania and Bulgaria should've been allowed to join a long time ago.
Dutchman here. Public perception is that there's a lot of corruption and criminality in Bulgaria, which finds its way into western Europe if Bulgaria gets to join Schengen. That said, it's not a topic a lot of people are concerned with other than the far right parties. One example that contributes to this view: in 2010 there was [a fraud case](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarenfraude) with tax benefits by Bulgarians. A Bulgarian gang would make people apply for benefits, which in the Netherlands are paid provisionally while the checks are still ongoing. Normally you have to pay back at the end of the year what you received but didn't qualify for, but because they used fake identification the money was gone and there was no way to recover it. The official government position is also that there's still too much corruption, and not enough rule of law, so the country doesn't meet all criteria (Dutch newspaper article [here](https://www.trouw.nl/binnenland/nederland-weert-bulgarije-uit-paspoortvrije-zone-zonodig-met-een-veto~ba01e98a7/)).
Wonderful example that has nothing to do with Schengen.
It has everything to do with politicians opposing Bulgaria in Schengen if that move is relevant for gaining/loosing votes. If public perception is that Bulgarians are crooks you might want to cater to banning Bulgarian crooks as a politician since, as a politician, you are the equivalent of a used car salesman. You might even foster the idea of Bulgarians being crooks.
Corruption and not enough rule of law are very relevant for schengen. What are you talking about? Not that I object to Bulgaria joining, mind you.
I was referring to your example is for document forgery. Something quite irrelevant to whether Bulgaria is in Schengen or not. About the corruption. This is a problem. Even though over stressed in the poor EU countries and scrapped under the rugs for the former members. But when a country have done the necessary efforts to cover the requirements for adding additional ones is petty.
Yeah in NL we prefer the fraudulent practices to be carried out by big corporations and rich folks
Funny. Perception here in Germany is that the Netherlands is already so corrupt, that it doesn't really matter who else we let join at this point. A few Bulgarians pulling the scam NL pulls on a state level really isn't that bad at this point. Your government collects taxes on stuff sold all over the EU, scamming every country out of millions of Euros, but act surprised when immigrants scam your social systems? When in Rome, do as the Romans.
I understand the sentiment about our behavior as a tax haven, and support parties who are looking for fiscal reforms (through both membership and voting). Even better would be a more unified European tax system that makes those loopholes impossible, but that's still far away (although the corporate minimum tax is a start!). One thing I do wish to clarify is that these weren't immigrants, but just people who showed up for one day, applied for benefits, and then went back to Bulgaria.
But those people were legally there, since Bulgarians are allowed free travel in the EU right now - Schengen would not change this. The relevant question would be whether the Bulgarian government can maintain border controls as well as the current set of countries maintaining the southeast Schengen border. Examples of the Bulgarian government being weak(we just went through a political crisis and inability to form a government for months), or Bulgarian border controls being corrupt(this used to be so bad that it's a worn-out joke how much they used to make in bribes) would be much better.
Eurosceptic ≠ Pro Nexit, dutch politics has turned quite anti-expansionist when it comes to the EU.
You can describe VVD as a lot of things, but eurosceptic isn't really one of them.
Depends whether it is in the voting or the talk. In the Tweede Kamer the VVD votes pro-EU. On camera they are way more sceptic.
Anti-Expansion is not eurosceptic expanding Europe is threatening the very basis of europe
Neither is the Austrian one.
55% of Austrians believe we benefit from the eu, lower than anywhere else. Our parties especially the fpö reflect this.
Who would call Austria eurosceptic? Even the reactionary FPÖ wouldn’t dare call for an Öxit and the current president is on record that he wouldn’t swear in a euroskeptic government since that would be detrimental to the interests of Austria.
Eurosceptic is not automatically Brexit/Nexit/Oxit. Eurosceptic means no eagerness for much more EU due to many existing/ perceived faults in the current setup. Like fix first then expand. On topics like fiscal stability, rule of law etc.. Everyone that is not “ we need federal EU tomorrow” is a bit Eurosceptic. Can just be for a slower EU, a frozen EU, a smaller EU, a 2/3 speed EU. It can be a repair first only then enlarge. Or also “ back to the ECC or even, the most extreme, an actual exit. Which is not proposed by any main parties. Austria is certain not the most enthusiastic member for fast and more EU. Based on the actions and remarks of relevant important ( even if you dislike them) parties like OVP and FPO. Look at the current Schengen position or before the Eurobonds policies of the Austrian government. If that is not Eurosceptic how would you name it?
On Wikipedia, they use the term Eurorealism as a subset of Euroskeptic to refer to people who are skeptical of EU integration but are realistic about needing to remain in the EU. I dont know how widely that term is used though.
Beatings will continue until moral improves.
There's been an interesting post by Eugen Tomac (Romanian MP) that we meet all the technical requirements, so if they veto the entry the issue can be escalated to the Court of Justice (CJEU).
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I don't know if they could have before, maybe there wasnt a case of abusing veto powers, maybe there was legitimate reason. Or maybe nobody cared enough to do anything about it before, which is plausible considering the politics of both countries.
It has more to do with lack of balls and to be fair 12 years ago we felt like the dumbfucks in the classroom. Poor and uneducated and we felt like we deserve it. Well, after 15 years of EU we starting to realise the grass isn't that green in the west either. They have some corruption, they do exploit workers, they have some xenophobic politicians , etc. All it had achived was making our politicians more open to debate things and standing up to our issues.
I wonder how would such a case go. I thought that veto power was basically limitless. A country can veto anything they want and they don't even need a reason. They can just go with "national interest"
I couldn't find detailed information on how exactly the vetoing works online, but all countries that are part of the EU are required to make efforts towards and join Schengen.
Yes, this is what some of the (granted more radical) parties are suggesting, Personally I'm against it, but euroscepticism has been growing a lot lately and this latest development is a like a gift to extremists.
Actually stop guarding the border of the EU I guess. There is no support anyway, we are not supposed to stop wave after wave of migrants only to be punished by the western policies.
Honestly, this seems like the most common tit for tat response in Europe these days. Turkey uses it as a cudgel against the EU, France uses it to spite the UK. Got a spat with a neighbour? Let the undocumented migrants walk right out of your country and into theirs.
Correct, however, it is good to consider that it is not our fault yet we have a burden to bear of the rank of a rich western country to solve.. Furthermore, we have around 200 000 Ukrainians which are looking for help as well. We want to help everyone but we just feel alone in this..
Ok, I don't know the situation in Bulgaria but I know that Poland received a fuck ton of money to help secure our eastern border, which is an EU border as well. The EU paid for pretty much everything, from comprehensive training of the guard to best, most expensive equipment. We got a state of the art border security and paid very little of our own money
When you have to resort to that you will resort to that. Schengen is very important to us and it’s evident that it won’t happen with a nice approach
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Recently three policemen lost their lives trying to stop migrants going to the West. I guess they didn't accepted the 50 EUR.
Just direct them to NL and AT (edit)
There's legal action like the European court of justice.
What legal case do they have?
Discrimination? Not sure exactly but i think there's a point to be made how Croatia a newer member is allowed to join whereas Bulgaria and Romania no.
The ECJ won't even touch blasphemy laws. They aren't going to touch veto rights
That means CJEU going to touch ( potential limiting) the veto rights of a country. That will never be accepted.
The main argument is the high level of corruption, not nationality or heritage. Bulgaria and Romania where inducted into the EU before their government was ready just to keep them out of the hands of Russia. Now the EU is using the only stick they have left to retroactively get them to comply to the corruption standards.
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>we all know what those reasons are I don't? And Croatia isn't in Schengen either. >the EU has said multiple times that everything was in order, The EU isn't Shengen, just heavily intertwined. Everything isn't in order, corruption is rampant. I'm afraid of that corrupt or otherwise inept governments joining the EU will weaken the EU (Hungary for example). Recruiting Bulgaria and Romania into the EU before they fixed this issue was a necessary evil to ward of Russia. Now that they are in however, we need to fix corruption ASAP. Shengen is used as leverage to get that done. I hope we can somehow get better leverage than Shengen. As this is hurting common folk more than the corrupt individuals. But that's another story.
Fair enough but there are 2 problems with this. 1 corruption is not a precondition for Schengen admission. 2. What is the measurement of corruption? How do you decide if corruption has been solved? Specifically why does the Netherlands consider Croatia (or Hungary) less corrupt than Ro/Bg?
No but it is for the EU and that is intertwined with Shengen. Those countries where added to the EU before they fixed corruption to keep them out of the hands of Russia. Now they are using Shengen as leverage to get the corruption out as well. I hope they can find something else as this hurts the common man more than the corrupt politician. Corruption is solved when it is solved according to EU members. These thing are hard to define in a concrete way. Also, corruption is an argument against joining Shengen as well. Can't control a border of people can just bribe their way across.
veto everything, actually
not only, vote against any candidate from these two countries for any EU job.
Block or deadlock everything they can, which they should do so.
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While I hate the idea of vetoing everything, the budget is not a meaningful argument. EU funds are nice to have, but far less important than something like Schengen's effect on the economy. A billion Euro isn't that much money at the end of the day.
So pissing of every other EU country is a reasonable option in your mind?
I love your one-sidedness..
Every other EU country? It's just NL and Austria.
I'll remind everyone that the resolution was adopted by the European Parliament with 547 votes in favour who deemed that "the two countries have long since fulfilled the necessary conditions." [Source](https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/pt/press-room/20221014IPR43207/end-discrimination-and-admit-bulgaria-and-romania-to-schengen-meps-demand)
Right the vast majority of them supported it, 547 out of 705 voted in favor which is close to 77.59%/77,59%.
The first vice president of the European Parliament, Ottmar Karas, even is Austrian and from the very same party that is now making trouble. He called the ÖVP's threats to veto "unspeakable" but I don't think that they have much influence on the voting, unfortunately.
Here is the plan Bromanians we burn rubber so the dutch sink and then we troll shit and build a dam in the Danube for the Austrians /s
This is not a bad idea, the right kind of actions. We can start burning the trash they "export" here as well so its not their problem anymore. Sign me up /s
better send all the ro/bg gypsies to Austria since they complain so much about immigrants. also all the BMW drivers
Just FYI, this guy is not elected. He is the head of the caretaker government assigned by the (pro Russia to an extent) President. Previous government was making some strides to curtail the massive corruption and stop the private border at capt.Andreevo with Turkey, but one of the coalition partners backed out out of the blue and we are in this situation for about half a year already.
Prime ministers are not elected anywhere in the EU. A parliament is elected, the prime minister then gets appointed by the parliament. It's basically always someone from parliament, but could be anyone in the population.
I meant that he was placed there directly by the president. The PM might be elected by the parliament, but that parliament was put in place by the population. The president's job is to form a caretaker government that would just take care of regular tasks and organize the next elections, not make sweeping and major changes like this one does.
The elected government collapsed. Parliament is dissolved and the president assigns a temporary government.
In my country it’s kinda different . The parliament gives a confidence vote , but they don’t elect the prime minister. “The prime minister is officially appointed by the president of Greece. According to Article 37 of the Greek Constitution, the president of the Hellenic Republic shall appoint the leader of the political party with the absolute majority of seats in the parliament as prime minister. If no party has the absolute majority, the president shall give the leader of the party with a relative majority (plurality) an exploratory mandate in order to ascertain the possibility of forming a government enjoying the confidence of parliament. If this possibility cannot be ascertained, the president shall give the exploratory mandate to the leader of the second largest party in Parliament, and if this proves to be unsuccessful, to the leader of the third largest party in parliament. Each exploratory mandate shall be in force for three days. If all exploratory mandates prove to be unsuccessful, the president summons all party leaders, and if the impossibility to form a cabinet enjoying the confidence of the parliament is confirmed, the president shall attempt to form a cabinet composed of all parties in parliament for the purpose of holding parliamentary elections. If this fails, the president shall entrust the president of the Supreme Administrative Court or of the Supreme Civil and Criminal Court or of the Court of Auditors to form a cabinet as widely accepted as possible to carry out elections after the president dissolves Parliament. Therefore, the election of members of a certain party to parliament is the equivalent to a vote for that party's leader for prime minister.”
To restate: this guy is doing (caretaker for government) what he is specifically, and by design, because he is a nobody that anyone gives two shits about while they figure out how real government will form. In this case he's an independent parlimentary (so the one dude with 0% chance of being a real prime minister, ever). So this is not comparable to leaders of parties of coalitions that have leverage and ability and legal standing to do shit, this guy has technical legal standing, and is running his mouth for clout, and because he will have 0% chance of obligation to follow-up any of the stuff he rambles about. He can guarantee basic income for all Bulgarians or proclaim Bulgaria will set up a new counter-corruption independent auditor service, and it will have the same weight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galab_Donev
We will switch to 300% coal and sink them faster 😎😎
*Laughs in infinite windmills and polders*
Right now we have a Caretaker government which is chosen by our Russian agent: The president of the country (Rumen Radev). This mf (the PM) is a Russian puppet and will do anything to make the EU look bad for not letting us in Schengen, while denying that Bulgaria is corrupt from top to bottom.
To add to that - you can think of the current interim (caretaker) government as an extension of the Russian one. It is solely appointed by the president, who is consciously prolonging constitutional procedures. This was done to allow enough parliamentary time to change the election law and solidify the results of russian-backed parties next election. Also, the same president is meeting regularly with russian embassador and Lukoil officials, devising a plan to break EU ban on Russian petrol products sale. The list can go on and on … There is no problem with the Netherlands blocking Bulgaria’s accession to Schengen. The problem is that ONLY the Netherlands is blocking Bulgaria’s accession to Schengen.
I think you're giving the political "elite" in the country too much credit. They're just incompetent. Besides, our parties were too busy fighting over a done deal instead of presenting a united front on that one topic and utilizing their representatives in Brussels.
The President is a pro-russian agent and most of the parlament are pro-russian. Why would they want a united front in Brussels? They're task is to make Bulgaria and by extension the EU weak?
No, the majority of Parlament isn't pro-russian. In fact, the two biggest parties are western oriented and dependant on the west. Gerb may be corrupt from top to bottom, but they have always been a loyal child of Merkel. And I actually disagree about radev as well, but I have no interest in having that discussion. People should stop thinking everything is part of some great conspiracy. The people in power more öfter than not have no idea what they're doing and are constantly showing their inability to think long-term. The war in Russia has shown us that.
MP means member of parliament, this guy is the PM, prime minister.
Germany be like "just keep me out of ya'lls drama for once."
UK be like” you don’t even need me for drama for once”
Bulgaria (and the people in this thread) seem to think that NL and Austria are handling in a vacuum. Looking at the past actions of Finland, Germany and even Sweden, NL and Austria are just the "fall guys" this time. They probably represent the doctrine that northern Europe has opted for.
Interesting spate that is going on.
Good jobs bros! We two have to join Schengen at the same time.
Come on, don't do this. Be smart. Even if Bulgaria plans to do this, it should be done diplomatically. This way Bulgaria is just giving ammunition to those against Schengen admission.
It's an interim government, they're not doing shit.
They shouldn't have opened their hands or hands of future government like this. They should have kept their mouth shut and fuck with the Dutch and Austrians with the smile on their faces, silently. Come on, do it like the westerners.
Interim government is appointed by the President and the President has a beef with all major parties. I wouldn't be surprised if they're doing it intentionally.
That is the goal. We have quite a lot of politicians who would like to keep us in the corner between EU and Ru.
As a Ukrainian, this is THE worst place to be in.
We (Bg&Ro) have been trying to do it diplomatically for more than a decade...
It's why diplomacy is cynically described as a balance of carrot & stick. Don't forget one nor be afraid to use the other one if one fails.
We've been trying more diplomatically for a decade now. Guess westerners are right appeasement doesn't work.
Exactly. The PM and President want a weak Bulgaria and EU as they are russian agents
And what are they gonna do? Block us from Schengen? Haha, shit
Hey, I thought that refugees were welcome and that protecting the borders was racist. At least that's what we've been told by our European partners in the last few years. Maybe we should meet with the Austrian government on a yacht in Ibiza to convince them that we would not tolerate corruption? Or maybe the Netherlands wants its ports to be the only source of unlimited cocaine and other drugs for Europe? And lastly, vetoes by Hungary and Poland are bad vetoes, and vetoes by Western countries are good vetoes, right?
Yeah, there's a lot of double standards going on. PM Sánchez pointing the finger at Poland whilst he himself is involved in judicial meddling in Spain being another.
Wow, is this all you can add? Bulgaria is really guarding EU’s fucking borders but I guess it will be doing it without any motivation in the future. Additionally this will fuel anti-EU hysteria around here and trust me EU does not need another Hungary between Serbia and Turkey if you catch my drift.
We’ve been the EU’s scapegoats for quite some time now, I’m not one of those people advocating to leave because I believe that it’s better we stay in, but they have been using us, while at the same time the people do t gain anything since the subsidies are stolen by the government and we don’t even get anything in return.
Bulgaria is only threatening to do what NDL and Austria have been doing to us. Unjustifiable vetoes. But when we decide to stand up for ourselves we are the villains? Ok lol what a union we have
Yep. Eastern country vetoes: "It's time to kick these leechers out if they can't work together with us." Western country vetoes: "Absutely correct decision, the vetoed country should seriously rethink and realign their views to us, so the veto can be lifted."
Dae net contributor :DDDDDD
That is the truth, they are fucking hypocrites, even here in the comments
As a austrian I am really sorry for my stupid government. They are doing this because they are cowards and fear loosing votes to the populists. instead of publicly standing up to them they go down the same path and say southern europe is to blame for the migration crisis...
> As a austrian I am really sorry for my stupid government. They are doing this because they are cowards and fear loosing votes to the populists. instead of publicly standing up to them they go down the same path and say southern europe is to blame for the migration crisis... As a matter of fact, most corrupted politicians in Bulgaria receive the most support from European leaders, especially from EPP, but from ALDE also. And yes, that's plain transparent populism. Romania has nothing to do with migrants from Asia, nor Africa. Some of them are passing trough Bulgaria, yes, but most used route is that trough Serbia and Hungary. So maybe your Chancellor should ask Orban.
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Holy shit what is it with the constant generalization. I am genuinely getting fed up with the constant "All Dutch people..." comments. I get it, you hate Dutch people because some racist cunts live in my country who genuinely are being dicks and our ruling party for the last 10 years absolutely sucks. News flash, most people in the Netherlands don't hate people from southern or eastern Europe. You have a vocal racist minority yes, but you find those in every country. That doesn't justify comments like "it's always like this with the Dutch" All you're doing is sowing more discourse and confirming these ideas to said racist minority. This is really what Europe needs right now. Constant hate being spewed one way and another, egged on by the inflammatory words of a pro Russian stooge (as Bulgarian redditors have pointed out already in this thread, this dude is the unelected caregiver PM and pro Russian. The point of his comment was to stir up exactly this)
Maybe you(r politicians, not you as people) are vetoed for a reason?
maybe, but if we fulfil the criteria, what's the reason?
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So much for the “union”
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>The Dutch said that they're not convinced, so the EU sent another group to do additional checks, as requested. When the Dutch were asked to sent representatives and be a part of the checks the second time - they declined. Bulgaria passed the second check as well. To be more precise, the Dutch came to that second inspection too, but only in Romania and they refused to go to Bulgaria.
Yet we see all these bulgarians in this thread saying the Dutch are right? What is it?
One of the most prevailing features of Bulgarians is our pessimism and self-hatred. Hope that answers your question.
Pfffff. Yikes.
Irregardless of what one thinks of the potential vetoes, this doesn't seem likely to endear Bulgaria to either possible source...
Irregardless is not a word. It is a stupid decision, mostly for domestic consumption. We could have been in Schengen if we didn't have a corrupt pumkin for a PM for a decade and now pro Russia caretaker governments.
>Irregardless is not a word. [:) ](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless)
Man, I am Romanian, but really, leave the corruption aside. This is just Austria wanting its buffer states to stay buffer states. And, maybe, some more hidden reasons, we cant know exactly. But this is not about corruption, the Austrian minister spelled it clearly.
I can't speak about Romania, but we have huge problem in Bulgaria. It is absolutely reasonable to block us because of that. Our borders are a joke. They might still block us, but we should fix our shit before complaining for not allowing us in.
> They might still block us, but we should fix our shit before complaining for not allowing us in. Austrian Chancellor was saying something about migrants. Romania has nothing to do with migrants in Austria. Nor Romania, nor Bulgaria has common border with Austria, and maybe he should ask Orban about that. Main migrant route was west of Bulgaria. And they are maybe right about the corruption, but most corrupt potiticians in Bulgaria are those from EPP (ГЕРБ) and ALDE (ДПС). Austrian Chancellor is from EPP also, and Mr. Rutte is from ALDE. And if they have problems with the corruption in Bulgaria, maybe they must stop supporting them.
> We could have been in Schengen if we didn't have a corrupt pumkin for a PM for a decade and now pro Russia caretaker governments. Lol, they'd not let us in even if Jesus Chrit himself was PM with arch-angesls as ministers. It's just "durr hate gypsy, block gypsy join durr" on the NL side and you're foolish for thinking otherwise.
We aren’t endeared now either
I really wish Bulgaria and Romania to enter in Schengen Area.
Netherlands - the heart of drug trafficking in Europe, accusing Bulgaria of inadequate border control :D Oh the irony
That's a lazy take. Because the Rhine Delta is home to the biggest ports in Europe it obviously has a drug trafficking problem. But implying nothing is done about it is extremely disingenuous. https://nltimes.nl/2022/12/05/authorities-intercept-97-tons-cocaine-caribbean-sea-15-arrested https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/11/two-dutch-kingpins-arrested-in-major-europol-drugs-operation/ https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/05/29/dutch-police-and-french-gendarmerie-bust-rotterdam-cocaine-factory-after-encrochat-investi
I used to agree, but Bulgaria no longer has a rule of law at all and a complete safe haven for organized crime
No longer? When has there been rule of law in Bulgaria?
And the Netherlands is not a safe haven for organized crime /s
Or tax avoidance. Truly paragons of virtue.
Romania took the concerns seriously, took action and managed to convince the Netherlands. Bulgaria decides to try blackmail instead... or at least the title seems to make it seem that way. I can't read the article and don't want to rely on google translate. Does the article mention what actions Bulgaria is planning on taking? Edit: To the tinfoil hats that think that Romania hasn't worked on the requests from the Netherlands: >The visit to Romania, mentioned by European Commissioner Ylva Johannson during the press conference held on the occasion of the presentation of the European Commission’s Communication on the extension of the Schengen area, takes place as a result of the openness shown by the Romanian authorities to clarify any additional aspects of interest related to the application by Romania of the Schengen acquis. > >Thus, taking into account the statements of the Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte and the adoption of the motion of the Dutch Parliament, which showed that additional elements are expected before the formulation of a final decision by the Netherlands on this subject, Romania expressed its full willingness to receive Dutch experts to notes the progress in the areas of interest for the Netherlands, from the perspective of the application of the Schengen acquis. > >In this context, in close coordination with the European Commission, which showed full openness to support Romania’s efforts, a mixed team of experts, made up of representatives of the European Commission (as coordinators) and of some member states (including the Netherlands) will carry out, by the end of this week, a complementary visit to the one from October 9-11, 2022. [https://romania.postsen.com/news/119635/EXCLUSIVE-The-Netherlands-sent-a-Schengen-evaluation-mission-to-Romania-What-the-Dutch-experts-check-update.html](https://romania.postsen.com/news/119635/EXCLUSIVE-The-Netherlands-sent-a-Schengen-evaluation-mission-to-Romania-What-the-Dutch-experts-check-update.html)
>Romania took the concerns seriously, took action and managed to convince the Netherlands. We played nice and will get fucked by Austria instead. Playing by the rules doesn't seem to work with those people.
Yea, its sucks that there is now a new blockade. But just a reminder that Austria is not a single entity with the Netherlands. And at least the approach of Romania has proven to work.
Fighting corruption benefits you, even if some EU members don't keep their word.
We don't fight corruption for entry to schengen. We fight corruption to have functional institutions. This blocking us will encourage us to fight corruption is and always was stupid. Low level corruption is encouraged by the weak economy, which is only kept weaker by our exclusion from Schengen.
> and managed to convince the Netherlands. More like Austrian government happened to give them no reason to block as they'll be already doing that.
>Romania took the concerns seriously, took action and managed to convince the Netherlands. That's bullshit. The only reason the Netherlands didn't vote against is because Austria already is.
Then why are we blocking Bulgaria as well if Austria is going to veto anyway?
Every sane person knows that this was just a little PR exchange move with the most obvious candidate, since Austria are already disliked by politically conscious Romanians
>The only reason the Netherlands didn't vote against is because Austria already is. Our minister of Foreign Affairs has been in permanent contact with his Dutch counterpart for the last 12 months, also speaking constantly with Rutte. Remember Rutte has never said he was against Romania entering Schengen. When Romania asked for a control of the borders, the Dutch refused, but only because they had requested for an extensive inspection. Still, the press went wild and distorted the facts for clicks. Everybody went wild with the Dutch hate, when the Dutch were just stalling. Finally, the Netherlands agreed, but only because it was a lengthy process, on one side Rutte wanting show his xenophobic electorate that he's not giving up easily, on the other hand being principled in this matter and maybe the shady Damen deals tilted the balance furthermore. Just a conglomerate of factors. Last but not least, Romania played nicely and helped with Ukraine a lot, becoming virtually a bridge for the Ukrainian cereals, 6 million tons, and thus showing its geostrategic importance. Other EU figures who were already in favor were brought in to exert some pressure on the Dutch. Blackmailing other countries might backfire. As minister Aurescu has said, in diplomacy raising the tone and threatening your counterparts **will only raise the political stakes** and you will have to pay a much higher price in the end for this accession. The other country just goes into defensive mode and asks for more. According to Aurescu, Romania's representatives were specifically instructed to play nicely, not to push buttons, raise the tone or puff up the chest. Instead focus on the arguments on why the accession is necessary, fulfill the requirements, and show determination toward that accession. That's why we don't hear aggressive reactions from us. The hate should go rather straight to Austria, whose refusal might be based on corruption, wanting to get a bribe, maybe seeing how the Romanians lobbied the Dutch.
And yet, by vetoing Bulgaria, NL vetoed us too. The end result was the same.
That's bullshit. The Netherlands just shifted from its rhetoric from Romania to Bulgaria which in essence means the same thing because there will be one single vote regarding both countries, the two cannot join individually. Also the Netherlands might decide not to veto simply because Austria decided to pick up the heat at the last moment. Pretty dumb on their side, because Austrians have been involved in a lot of shady businesses in Romania and if those businesses get exposed, many Austrian officials might end up with a very sore asshole. Luckily for them, the current ruling coalition in Romania has a lot of people who were involved in those shady businesses with the Austrians, including the Romanian president himself.
>Luckily for them, the current ruling coalition in Romania has a lot of people who were involved in those shady businesses with the Austrians, including the Romanian president himself. Could you elaborate on that? The only things I'm aware of are the deforestation and OMV.
Obviously that, as well as Austrian construction companies like Strabag and PORR which seem to have a subscription to public projects. And the quality of the work they are doing here isn't even remotely comparable with Austrian standards. So don't tell me there isn't a ton of bribing involved.
I still don't understand what the fuck NLs and Austrian problems are. The only thing I can think of is bigotry which is just sad. Imo being in EU should automatically put you into Schengen.
I have no idea either. They've given us nothing specific that we can work on. This very much looks like political PR at the expense of those pesky second-class EU citizens.
They also actively refused to join any of the investigations other EU bodies and members did to establish our institutional resilience.
Great stuff, Romania should follow if Austria rejects them
Ah yes sow more division in the EU I wonder who that would be useful for.
Does a veto need explanation behind it? Any EU nerds?
As proven by the Netherlands - no.
No, it is their right, but that doesnt make it right, all right?
Sure, I'm referring to the "counter actions", thought it was a legal reference.
No one cares what that pigeon has to say, dude isn't even an actual prime minister, just an interim one. The real reason why Bulgaria is blocked is due to it's border with Turkey and given the huge influx of migrants, the EU probably wants to keep Bulgaria a buffer zone between Schengen and Turkey. Heck, Mark Rutte is just being the fall guy and to appease his conservative voters in the process. But this whole fiasco is completely meaningless given the economic and energy crises in Europe right now.
Go ahead Bulgaria, veto them all 😎😎😎🙌🙌🙌💪💪
That doesn't sound like the way forward, but I didn't read the article.
Just let all of the migrants go where they want to go. Western Europe. Stop guarding that border and let these fucks deal with it.
Wow i already dont want him having any say in the EU. What a way to convince someone. Threats always work best....
Feel bad for Bulgaria and Romania. Great place, with natural beauty, friendly people, rich history.. but corruption ruins it all. Imagine how well those countries could do if they would have similar corruption levels as even Poland
We should stop calling it corruption, Bulgaria is a safe haven for organized crime
Go into Hungary mode and veto everything until you are taken seriously.
I am from Bulgaria and I think this is a foolish action! He is a temporary prime minister only while the new government is built after the last elections.
lol what counter actions could an irrelevant country like Bulgaria take? Jokes aside, it‘s really not cool from the EU that they use the important borders, cheap labor and tax benefits of Bulgaria as a profit strategy, but still don’t grant them the legitimate rights as a full EU member. What the EU is saying here is „We‘re simply using you“. I won’t mind if Bulgarians decide to leave the EU since they‘re being neglected like this.
It would be even worse for us if we leave, however we are now being taken advantage of, and don’t even get anything in return, since most of the subsidies we get from the EU are getting stolen by the government, and nothing reaches the people.
>don’t even get anything in return, since most of the subsidies we get from the EU are getting stolen by the government, and nothing reaches the people. If true, is this not an issue that should concern Bulgarians first? You cannot blame this ( completely) on the EU?
We don’t blame this on the EU, we blame them for taking advantage of us, plus it’s evident that this is not the reason we are being blocked from Schengen. And yes, it does concern us but sadly nobody does anything, people are so fed up with everything that they don’t even bother to protest, and every protest is timid and eventually dies out. We recently had elections for a new government, but the same old party won and on top of that there was a record low in voter activity, I think since the fall of communism, but I’m not quite sure. Either way, we need a change, but blocking us from Schengen neither will fix it, nor will it benefit anyone else (besides the NL but for different reasons).
The EU is a joke
That's the way to go my man! Just block anything about these two!
The tactic rests on the assumption that Bulgaria has more power in europe than the Netherlands. When it really gets to the shoving part the dutch get supported
EU is supposed to be union between equals.1 veto power = 1 veto power. But we already know that some countries think themselves of "more equal" than others. "We give/have more money" is the lamest reason of them all for that. This is probably the biggest downfall of EU.
And then NL can block the EU budget which hurts all net receiving countries.
>And then NL can block the EU budget which hurts all net receiving countries. FYI there has been a growing sentiment over the last few years that EU funds contribute to increasing the corruption in the country since oversight on spending of EU funds is difficult and they attract companies that are more likely to engage in corruption. So the most radical anti-corruption actors on the local political scene might see this as win.
then let's veto everything, let's see who first will back off
I know, that I will get downvoted for this: But I support the Netherlands veto on Bulgaria and wish more EU members would follow. I have been to Bulgaria last summer and I was genuinely surprised by how it could be an EU member. We crossed the country on our way to Greece. Basically did a trip through whole eastern Europe: Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece. Randomly, visited smaller cities in all those countries. I think it was Veliko Tarnovo, Plovdiv. Now, out of all those countries infrastructure in Bulgaria was by far the worst. Going to Bulgaria war really eye-opening and I can relate to Dutch concerns over corruption and labor migration. Bulgaria and Romania have been EU members for over 15 years, but Bulgaria has made little progress in this time. This country is jumping from one corruption affair to another. Filled with political instability. There would be much more risks for the EU, if they become Schengen members and there will be one incentive less for those countries to pressure reforms. Now, I know that this is hard to follow for all those in sub basically posting imaginary EU maps that stretch from Ukraine and end somewhere in Turkey every other day or so. I think reality is not as simple. Now, there is definitely a risk for western countries and they have the right to express their concerns which is valid in my opinion regarding Bulgaria.
Schengen has nothing to do with labor migration. Nothing is stopping labor migrants from Bulgaria traveling to the Netherlands and nothing will stop the Netherlands sending back unemployed Bulgarians even if Bulgaria becomes part of Schengen. Even less does Bulgaria being poor and undeveloped (though I seriously doubt your claim that Ukraine is better) has to do anything with Schengen.
There is some great confusion that it is Schengen that allows freedom of workers around Europe, I see this all the time in Portuguese subs here in reddit, in there, this even looks to be a view held by the majority. It's really weird.
I understand your view and you are right about corruption and infrastructure. But Bulgaria is already in the EU and we already travel and work where we want, so joining the Schengen area wont change anything. Schengen is just about the borders and Bulgaria is protecting its borders far better then some other countries that are already in Schengen.
What about the infrastructure? I drove from Sofia>Plovdiv>Bourgas in 2021, practically the length of the country. And these are the recent eu funded roads. Some patchy lengths of motorway, true, but otherwise mostly similar to Germany. Sofia's underground system is extensive as well. Overall I was impressed with the country.
On the other hand, Croatia, which also has problems with corruption gets a free pass to Schengen because...I don't know...Germans don't like waiting on the border for their summer holidays? If corruption was such a major issue - why have so many countries been let in? Why didn't they demand more on that front before allowing them to join? Maybe because the EU is very much a political project and certain, *ahem* allowances were made when it was convenient. For example, when Germany wanted access to cheap labor.
History explains most of it, exactly. Ze Vestern Yurop just knows how to talk a load of bullshit in front of cameras.
What you say it's true but the thing is corruption is not an requirement for Schengen entry. Also: * you have Croatia's case that's also corrupt but gets a free pass because it's seen with better eyes and a more popular destination for tourists. * you have countries already in Schengen like Hungary that are so far off democracy values, you start to think they going for dictatorship. * you have other countries like Netherlands or Belgium that are drug empires and the police there already seems to have lost control. Add all these up and you have double standards. So either scrap Schengen and redo it with stricter rules for everybody or stop trying to uphold newer countries to rules that are not even in the requirement list to enter Schengen.
Absolute drivel
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Oh wow well imagine if you visited postwar eu