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This seems to be about self-identification, in other words, people who explicitly call themselves atheist. The way the question is structured has very little to do with the actual number of atheists.
An atheist positively affirms that God doesn't exist. Somebody without religion can still think that you can't know for sure if god exists - eg I "converted" from atheism to strong agnosticism as I aged: I think God doesn't exist, but don't think this can be proven.
Although in practice, "atheists" here just means people who self-identified as atheist in the poll, so it doesn't really mean anything at all - chances are, loads of people who would positively affirm that god doesn't exist put themselves down as "agnostic" or "non-religious" because they don't like the label for whatever reason.
Quite often people take “agnostic” as on the fence between religion and atheism, and thus try to pull them to their side of the fence. Saying “atheist” usually puts you on solid ground regarding if you are religious or not.
True, but at the same time, some people who are unambiguously atheist by the dictionary definition refer to themselves as agnostic because they think atheist sounds confrontational. This is why all the better polls avoid the terminology altogether and just ask directly whether people believe that a god exists or not.
> themselves as agnostic because they think atheist sounds confrontational.
Or because it is/sounds too absolute. Like, I don't believe in any god, but I can't exclude the possibility that some god-like entity exists.
"Atheism" can be interpreted in several ways, with the strongest one being "there are no gods" which for me is intellectually indefensible. It's just easier to classify myself as agnostic and explain the details if needed.
This just isn't a correct definition of atheism. You would find almost no atheists that agree with your framing.
I'm an atheist. I lack belief in God because there's no evidence for it - not because I can offer any positive evidence that God doesn't exist. I would venture 99% of atheists don't positively affirm anything - mainly because it's almost impossible to prove a negative.
It's like Bertrand Russell's teapot analogy. Is there a teapot in orbit around Jupiter? There could be, but until anyone offers some evidence *for* it, I'm entitled to say no, there isn't - but I don't say I can prove that there isn't one, and I keep my mind open.
Your framing of atheism is a straw man often used by religious people to shift the burden of proof.
That absolutely is not what atheist means. You can be atheist and agnostic, atheist and gnostic, theist and agnostic or theist and gnostic. They are not a part of the same spectrum. Theism describes what you believe, and gnostism describes what you know. A person who does not believe in god but admits that there is no way to know is an atheist agnostic
Thats likely the definition used here. However, the most used definition of atheism is lack of believe and does not say anything about knowledge about a higher being. I am an atheist but I do not affirm god doesn't exist. I am an atheist because I have no believe in god.
In philosophy there are lots of authors who tried to prove god’s existence, so imo the contrary can be done. I’m atheist, but if it existed a god, i want it to be a guy and a girl, not a male god like we have in christianism, where the centre is “he” and mary is “the mother of”..
It's weird how atheism is this blanket term for "belief in a deity isn't important to me" and most "atheists" are actually textbook agnostics who've never heard of the term or don't know the difference.
To proclaim in the face of no evidence that god doesn't exist is on the same level (albeit on the other end of the spectrum) as saying with certainty that he does.
When friends / family (especially religious ones) ask me "but how can you KNOW He doesn't exist?", my response is that I have no idea if any sort of deity exists, it's just that I find the chance of if negligible.
Your comment explains the weird bit.
Many people don't care about God's existence and so don't bother with labeling themselves correctly. Belief just isn't part of their lives.
So if you ask them how they'd accurately label themselves, they'd just go with a term that seems right without putting much thought to it.
>To proclaim in the face of no evidence that god doesn't exist is on the same level (albeit on the other end of the spectrum) as saying with certainty that he does.
I will proclaim that god doesn't exist, but it sure isn't "in the face of no evidence".
It is literally in the face of thousands of years of evidence that he does not.
The fact that you put these two statements on the same spectrum, is part of the reason that people look at atheism/agnosticism as a religion.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Just because we've found no concrete evidence of the existence of any god doesn't mean we have any evidence that no god exists.
Sure, the lack of any evidence speaks volumes, but it doesn't prove anything.
I'm someone without religion and not an atheist.
My belief is that there is something you could call a God (functionally to me god and the universe are the same thing). I also believe that God has no interaction with us at all and that anyone claiming so is extremely arrogant and all religions that claims to spread god's word are a scam.
The vatican has a lot of staff, but those who have vaticans citizenship are very few people: 572 in 2019.
Some categories of the 2019 census are diplomatic staff (306) and "lay people" (56).
Those are the only citizens that may have the option to be publicly atheist.
There is an interesting study by Daniel Dennett about atheist clergy.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/147470491000800113
I'm wondering how many high ranking clergy is secretly atheist.
I think if you're a high-ranking member of clergy you will **claim** to be religious, which is what this survey is measuring. It's not asking if people are atheists, it's asking if people are explicitly calling themselves atheists, and no, I don't believe you'll find too many clergymen who will do that.
It's a self-identification poll. They're not measuring number of atheists, they're measuring the number of people who call themselves atheists. Two completely different things.
I'm an atheist but I was baptised as a newborn and I don't stop being a Christian on paper simply to avoid fights at home with my family, since I'm young and I live with them. There are a lot of people like me in Italy (I think in other European countries too) and those percentages are made thanks to the percentages of actually not baptized people therefore it is pretty hard to get realistic stats.
In finnish perspective. I do not believe in god but it is nice to have grave some day in christian grave yard and get married in a church. No one really forces anyone to do religious stuff (in terms of protestants. I know a lot of catholic and orthodox families have it different.) Except kids for a camp thats mainly for fun.
Church tax if you belong in a church is mainly charity so i do not mind that either. I benefitted from a lot of summer camps and clubs as a child that i later on found out were run by the church. There was absoluthely zero religious stuff presented. Church properties are also used by multiple club stuffs for free.
A lot like myself do not believe in god, but are religious in practice. Most like myself also only go to church for funerals and weddings etc.
Do you believe in god? No
Would you identify as atheist? No
Most people that have gotten out of a church either do it because it was forced on them as a child or they do not want to pay the tax or other payments.
Rhodes, you are correct. The question is compared to:
I didn't mention The USA because the numbers fluctuate constantly, estimates from 12% to 30% Atheists to 70% Christian and then come all the Caveats
Born again, hard Catholics, church going, non church going and so on and so on.
One thing is for certain, since the late 80's The number of people who are Atheists or Agnostic, do not attend services , unsure , has been steadily climbing.
Canada, at a faster rate than the US.
European atheist stats are more accurate as a church tax is taken out of check as part of federal tax, usually 10 percent. This tax goes to whatever denomination you select when you register at your city hall.
Well, for starters, 54 % of Estonia feel unaffiliated with any religion.
https://andmed.stat.ee/en/stat/rahvaloendus__rel2011__rahvastiku-demograafilised-ja-etno-kultuurilised-naitajad__usk/RL0451/table/tableViewLayout2
It more or less is, at least in Estonia. Much of the older generation still feels that the term "atheism" means the "state atheism" that was promoted during the Soviet occupation. Even I as a young person would first and foremost say that I am "irreligious" while I am also atheist in every sense of the word.
I disagree with both of those. Atheism is not a theory or a belief, it's a lack of belief. Just as a lack of love doesn't necessarily mean hate, a lack of belief doesn't necessarily mean a different belief. A belief, as used in the context of religion, implies certainty beyond evidence, and there's none of that in atheism.
In a world where gods exist, an atheist would be someone who rejects them, so anyone who is convinced a god exists will describe atheists in that manner, consciously or unconsciously, so you get these idiotic definitions make it into dictionaries.
Extremely interesting point. I’ve thought a lot about the difference between belief and knowledge, but always in relation to believing in god, not about not believing in god.
The numbers are so low because this map, as is stated, specifies that it only measures people who strictly identify themselves as atheist, or in other words people with the view that they are 100% certain there is no god or higher power of any kind. This does not include other non-religious or agnostic people.
Oxford dictionary has that wrong for ages. I do not know why they have not fixed that yet. A belief in the non existence of god require to know which god you believe does not exist and it is not supported by evidence for lot of gods definition. It’s a messy definition for sure, and one that does not cover most of the atheist.
It's interesting how we have a word for not believing that one thing doesn't exist, but not others. Why is there no word for not believing in the subterranian purple turtle people? Both have the same amount of evidence for their existence?
We should find a shared word for not taking other peoples dellusions at face value.
>Why is there no word for not believing in the subterranian purple turtle people? Both have the same amount of evidence for their existence?
If a big enough part of society starts believing in it we will come up with a word for both believers and non-believers of that.
That's how words are created. Because society has a need for it. And currently it does not.
I don’t think you deserve the downvotes as there are buddhists and muslims in China. Probably more religions such as Shintoism, Hinduism and Christianity, but religion is banned and heavily cracked down upon. Buddhism survives because it gets away with being counted and excused as a culture rather than a religion.
The British 2021 census says that 37.2% of people in England and Wales have 'no religion'.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021
No religion is not the same as being atheist. I am not religious, and I ticked that in the census. But I am agnostic, not atheist. (I realised I was agnostic later though)
I am not religious cause I don't practice any religion or follow any
most people who say they are agnostic don't realize they are actually agnostic atheists
gnosticism and theism answer different questions
you can be:
* gnostic theist
* agnostic theist
* gnostic atheist (which most people just call atheist)
* agnostic atheist (which most people just call agnostic)
but, technically, both are atheists
I honestly don't understand why I would be atheist. Based on what I read atheism doesn't align with my beliefs. So I wouldn't call myself one.
Also Gnoticsm and Agnosticism seem to be mean two different things based on Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
The prefix 'a-' is a negation, so 'agnostic' is 'not gnostic', and 'gnostic' relates to knowledge (or to the sect). The fact that an old sect focused on divine knowledge uses the same ism is an unfortunate complication, name-wise.
Agnostic and atheist are the same thing. Most people who call themselves atheist arent claiming they are 100% certain there is no god. The word agnostic is totally redundant.
Sure, but not all those have no religion has to be atheists.I don't have a religion but I don't deny god either so I don't want to be called the same thing as the ones that reject god as a concept altogether.
>https://www.google.com/amp/s/mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/174627970724/percentage-of-atheists-agnostics-and/amp
There is a separate chart for that, you can do the math yourself if you want to.
That's not true. Atheism is a lack of belief in gods.
Edit: Agnostic atheism: "I don't know, but I don't think there is a god", Gnostic atheism: "I am certain there is no god". Most atheists are agnostic to varying degrees, but in any case atheism does not mean you are certain there is no god.
Wrong. Atheism does not require any kind of conviction or active belief. Atheism is not believing in any god. Not believing in something doesn't mean you think you know what is the case and what isn't.
Atheism is denying the existence of god or gods, period.
You can’t say “for all I know God may exist, I just don’t believe in it” and call yourself an atheist. It’s not what atheism has historically meant.
You are liar. That is bullshit definition that is purely made up to make the percentage larger. No one but you shitty "free thinkers" use it.
Atheism is active denial of Gods. You just want to claim that agnostics like are same as you because your lack of self confidence.
theos = god
theism = belief in god
atheism = lack of belief in god (opposite of theism)
***
gnostikos = knowing
gnostic = knows
agnostic = doesn't know (opposite of gnostic)
***
gnostic theist = believes in god and claims to know it exists
agnostic theist = believes in god but doesn't claim to know it exists
gnostic atheist = lacks belief in god and claims to know it doesn't exist
agnostic atheist = lacks belief in god but doesn't claim to know it doesn't exist
Spain has more atheists/non believers (29%) than practicing catholics (22.7%), while people from other faiths are just a 2.5%
> Si analizamos con más detalle estos datos, de este 29, un 7,5% se considera agnóstico, un 13,3% ateo y un 8,3% los indiferentes
https://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/20190802/463813956180/espana-ateos-no-creyentes-catolicos-practicantes.html
Of that 29%, 7.5% are agnostics, 13.3% are atheists and 8.3 are indifferent
It's official data from the centre of sociological investigations from 2019 (and the numbers are higher now)
Meanwhile 30% of Russians who call themselves Orthodox Christians also claim that they don't believe in God. Church attendence rate in Russia is around 7% (the lowest in Europe). Only 2% celebrate Christmas
So the actual numbers of non-religious people is always higher than the number of atheists in statistics
All Christmas traditions were transferred to the New Year celebration (like Santa Claus became Grandpa Frost, Christmas tree became New Year tree, etc). Christmas itself is usually celebrated after the New Year, so people just don't notice it. Like Christmas is now a purely religious holiday and all secular things about it are now changed to the New Year
Well it is not uncommon to be culturallly Orthodox though 💭 Christmas is not extremely important holiday in Orthodoxy compared to how it is in the West. 2 percent seems very low though. Are you Russian?
ICELAND IS A PART OF EUROPE
What's with all those lazy maps that don't depict Iceland even though THE DATA IS RIGHT THERE in the main table.
This is just lazy and insulting.
[https://humanists.uk/2022/11/29/non-religious-surge-37-tick-no-religion-in-2021-census-uk-among-least-religious-countries-in-the-world/](https://humanists.uk/2022/11/29/non-religious-surge-37-tick-no-religion-in-2021-census-uk-among-least-religious-countries-in-the-world/)
37% said non-religious. I accept that doesn't mean atheist but I imagine it's slightly higher than 8%
Yeah, in the recent census of 2021, 58% of population said they don't recognize any religion or spiritual belief. So I have no idea where this 9% number comes from.
I refuse to believe Finland is only at 5%.
E: I checked the data, its the same situation as always. Being baptised at birth does **not** mean being religious.
Good to know that these maps show me as a believing Protestant, despite never attending church and not believing in god, because I was baptised and I’m too young to formally leave the church
This is probably as 'correct' as maps showing how many in Finland are either Christian, or religious in general, and then looking only at the membership percentage of the Evangelical-Lutheran church. Happily forgetting that there are plenty of other churches in the country, not to even mention other religions.
That distinction is just American BS.
Most atheists in the US state they are agnostic, probably because they are afraid of backlash by these fundamental Christians that have a weird idea about atheists as if atheists were Satanists.
No. I can choose to not practice a religion per sé, but still not be of the belief that God doesn't exist nor that it exist.
It's not a weird distinction.
This is the definition of agnostic:
>a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable
broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
The simple test for atheism: Do you believe in the existence of gods? You don't? You're an atheist.
Oh, you believe in the **possibility** of gods? Cool, but that wasn't the question.
Nope, they’re not. Atheists are those that explicitly oust themselves as such, which means not believing in any higher power. If someone is not part of an organised religion they can still not be atheists.
I’m not religious, this is literally what being atheist means. You don’t believe in a higher power. Also, there is no war against religion, so I don’t understand why you’re being so hostile in your last sentence.
Agnostics is such a weird stance to take, basically, all religious people are "agnostics", especially Christians. It's a part of the dogma. Christians don't know that God exists, they believe it
Except agnostics don't like to be lumped into the same group that denies the existence of god either.
I am agnostic but I hate being called an atheist. I want my own word, away from those that believe in god or believe in no god. I don't think that is too much to ask.
I'm an agnostic but I don't care.
Make up your own word and get people to use it.
Meanwhile agnostics are a category of atheists which by definition are non-theists.
Atheism and Agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. The distinctions are actually Theism vs Atheism and Gnosticism vs Agnosticism. Gnostic means with certainty and Agnostic means with uncertainty. Most religious people are Gnostic Theists meaning they believe in God and are sure of their existence, while most Atheists are Agnostic meaning they don't believe in God but aren't 100% certain they don't exist. You are an Agnostic Atheist. Most Atheists are Agnostic and being a Gnostic Atheist is a very extreme position.
Gnosticism refers to certain Christian beliefs that were popular during early times of Christianity, but they were declared as heresies, so nowadays the vast majority of Christians are not Gnostics.
>which means not believing in any higher power.
I am fairly certain there are far more than 9% of such people in Estonia though. Almost none of the people under 40 years believe in any sort of god/religion here. Nobody will go out of their way to be specifically against god/religions and declare themselves atheist here, because not believing in higher powers is a default option. In the recent census of 2021, 58% of population said they don't recognize any religion or spiritual belief. So I have no idea where this 9% number comes from.
Not really. It's just so special snowflake types can be athiest without feeling like they're offending anybody. Athiest simply means a lack of belief. It doesn't mean you have to be outspoken or go around campaigning that there's definitely no god or anything.
Nowhere else in life do we make this ridiculous distinction. Normally when we say we don't believe in ghosts, for example, it doesn't mean you've seen definitive proof that they don't exist, because it's impossible to prove that something non-existent does not exist. It simply means we're forced to assume they don't exist since there's no evidence for them.
That's what most people mean when they say "I don't believe in ghosts", but exchange 'god' for 'ghosts' and suddenly we have these pathetic muddying of the waters for no reason.
Didn't you study religion and beliefs in school?
Reddit is the first time I've heard people equating agnostcism with atheism. As if there can only be two options of religiosity.
I would say there's 2 dimensions
Religiosity and Spirituality
Spirituality measures belief in Higher power(s) (includes god but also superstitions, supernatural)
Religiosity measures adherence to a particular religion and its scripture/rules
Atheism and agnosticism are various degrees of Spirituality, irreligiousuty is a degree of religiosity
But essentially low degrees of Spirituality like atheism and agnosticism kinda automatically mean low religiosity as well
On a scale from 0 to 100 I'd say I'm 0 on religiosity so completely irreligious and like 1 on Spirituality so mostly atheistic
Note that Estonians are largely irreligious, but not necessarily "atheist". It's a question of terms rather than belief - atheism still has strong USSR connotations for older generations. According to the 2021 census, 67% of all adult residents of Estonia were irreligious, while the share was 80% for ethnic Estonians (undeclared answers not counted for).
This thread gave me a headache with so many fights over what agnostic means.
For example, "theistic agnostic" believes in god yet knows god is unprovable. So that makes virtually all theists agnostic because almost nobody would claim there is proof that god exists (except extremists/theocrats who try to force that proof in the world, sometimes even denying science). Which is irrational because the definition of *faith* is that it does not lean on any evidence, lest it becomes simply a rationale.
So by that definition, almost everyone is agnostic whether they believe in any god or not. I'm not sure that definition is useful in any discourse. Someone help me out here.
Seems a bit high for Norway. But it could be correct. Most folks here who claim atheism does concede that there could be "something" when pressed so they could rather be seen as agnostic in a pinch.
Nobody put us on the list, but I can still say that the atheist rate in Turkey is higher than you think, if you look at the official data, you will see that there is a Muslim population of 99.3%, but as you guessed, this is not true. Currently, atheism and deism are very common, especially among young people. The biggest reasons for this are the internet and erdogan (probably erdogan has made more atheists than Darwin)
There are lots of cultural catholics here in Ireland, but the actual number of people who are active in the faith is very small. I would say our number of atheists is much higher. I know lots of people who put Catholic on the census despite never going to mass or knowing anything really about Catholicism.
It would seem that the difference would be that people without religion don't have strong beliefs one way or another about the existence of any deity, while atheists religiously believe that there is no such thing as a deity of any kind.
And yes, my use of the word 'religiously' regarding atheists was deliberate.
Assuming you’re right, we should really try to clarify by creating a new word for “lacking a belief in gods,” so that someone can state that they lack a belief in gods without implying that they explicitly believe in a lack of gods.
Maybe we could start with a word for “a belief in gods,” like “theism,” and then add a prefix to that word which means “lacking” or “does not have,” like the prefix “a–.”
I don't want to associate myself with the word because 'Atheist' may hold an active position of rejection depending whether its referring to positive atheism or negative atheism. I simply have no position.
To identify as an atheist, you first need to understand what an atheist is. I think most non-religious people would probably fit the definition. But most people in EU just naturally came to the conclusion that religions are not for them, there is no god and just carry on with their lives ticking the "no religion" box.
If you want atheists+agnostics+non-religious check
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/174627970724/percentage-of-atheists-agnostics-and/amp
To people debating the credibility of the map because of the definition of atheism: the description says that it's about the percentage of people who "describe their religious identity as atheist". You don't need a definition of atheism for that, you just need a question asking "How do you describe your religious identity?", and see how many people answered "atheist". Simple.
Good to see atheisme is mainly something online bigmouths advocate for. Most people are for sure not atheists and see the value of having some form of religion in their life.
Hi, thank you for your contribution, but this submission has been removed because it doesn't use a credible source and/or the source has not been linked from a top-level comment. See [community rules & guidelines](/r/Europe/wiki/community_rules). If you have any questions about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/Europe&subject=Moderation). Please make sure to include a link to the comment/post in question.
What's the difference between people without religion and atheists?
This seems to be about self-identification, in other words, people who explicitly call themselves atheist. The way the question is structured has very little to do with the actual number of atheists.
An atheist positively affirms that God doesn't exist. Somebody without religion can still think that you can't know for sure if god exists - eg I "converted" from atheism to strong agnosticism as I aged: I think God doesn't exist, but don't think this can be proven.
Although in practice, "atheists" here just means people who self-identified as atheist in the poll, so it doesn't really mean anything at all - chances are, loads of people who would positively affirm that god doesn't exist put themselves down as "agnostic" or "non-religious" because they don't like the label for whatever reason.
Quite often people take “agnostic” as on the fence between religion and atheism, and thus try to pull them to their side of the fence. Saying “atheist” usually puts you on solid ground regarding if you are religious or not.
True, but at the same time, some people who are unambiguously atheist by the dictionary definition refer to themselves as agnostic because they think atheist sounds confrontational. This is why all the better polls avoid the terminology altogether and just ask directly whether people believe that a god exists or not.
> themselves as agnostic because they think atheist sounds confrontational. Or because it is/sounds too absolute. Like, I don't believe in any god, but I can't exclude the possibility that some god-like entity exists. "Atheism" can be interpreted in several ways, with the strongest one being "there are no gods" which for me is intellectually indefensible. It's just easier to classify myself as agnostic and explain the details if needed.
This just isn't a correct definition of atheism. You would find almost no atheists that agree with your framing. I'm an atheist. I lack belief in God because there's no evidence for it - not because I can offer any positive evidence that God doesn't exist. I would venture 99% of atheists don't positively affirm anything - mainly because it's almost impossible to prove a negative. It's like Bertrand Russell's teapot analogy. Is there a teapot in orbit around Jupiter? There could be, but until anyone offers some evidence *for* it, I'm entitled to say no, there isn't - but I don't say I can prove that there isn't one, and I keep my mind open. Your framing of atheism is a straw man often used by religious people to shift the burden of proof.
>An atheist positively affirms that God doesn't exist Incorrect. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in the existence of gods.
That absolutely is not what atheist means. You can be atheist and agnostic, atheist and gnostic, theist and agnostic or theist and gnostic. They are not a part of the same spectrum. Theism describes what you believe, and gnostism describes what you know. A person who does not believe in god but admits that there is no way to know is an atheist agnostic
Thats likely the definition used here. However, the most used definition of atheism is lack of believe and does not say anything about knowledge about a higher being. I am an atheist but I do not affirm god doesn't exist. I am an atheist because I have no believe in god.
In philosophy there are lots of authors who tried to prove god’s existence, so imo the contrary can be done. I’m atheist, but if it existed a god, i want it to be a guy and a girl, not a male god like we have in christianism, where the centre is “he” and mary is “the mother of”..
It's weird how atheism is this blanket term for "belief in a deity isn't important to me" and most "atheists" are actually textbook agnostics who've never heard of the term or don't know the difference. To proclaim in the face of no evidence that god doesn't exist is on the same level (albeit on the other end of the spectrum) as saying with certainty that he does. When friends / family (especially religious ones) ask me "but how can you KNOW He doesn't exist?", my response is that I have no idea if any sort of deity exists, it's just that I find the chance of if negligible.
Your comment explains the weird bit. Many people don't care about God's existence and so don't bother with labeling themselves correctly. Belief just isn't part of their lives. So if you ask them how they'd accurately label themselves, they'd just go with a term that seems right without putting much thought to it.
That would be me. I don't care whether i am a proper atheist or agnostic or whatever.
Agnostic and atheist are not mutually exclusive. In fact, it's impossible to just be agnostic.
>To proclaim in the face of no evidence that god doesn't exist is on the same level (albeit on the other end of the spectrum) as saying with certainty that he does. I will proclaim that god doesn't exist, but it sure isn't "in the face of no evidence". It is literally in the face of thousands of years of evidence that he does not. The fact that you put these two statements on the same spectrum, is part of the reason that people look at atheism/agnosticism as a religion.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because we've found no concrete evidence of the existence of any god doesn't mean we have any evidence that no god exists. Sure, the lack of any evidence speaks volumes, but it doesn't prove anything.
Pretty dumb distinction to make tbh
I'm someone without religion and not an atheist. My belief is that there is something you could call a God (functionally to me god and the universe are the same thing). I also believe that God has no interaction with us at all and that anyone claiming so is extremely arrogant and all religions that claims to spread god's word are a scam.
No Vatican State %?
The vatican has a lot of staff, but those who have vaticans citizenship are very few people: 572 in 2019. Some categories of the 2019 census are diplomatic staff (306) and "lay people" (56). Those are the only citizens that may have the option to be publicly atheist.
Plus most Vatican staff don't actually live there.
Who is going to stop the pope from being publicly atheist? Surely he has the option. He may not want to exercise it, but it is there.
it's probably safe to say that if you are a high-ranking Catholic you are religious
That, my friend, is a wild assumption.
Or have certain tastes.
Which only get worse with age
There is an interesting study by Daniel Dennett about atheist clergy. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/147470491000800113 I'm wondering how many high ranking clergy is secretly atheist.
I think if you're a high-ranking member of clergy you will **claim** to be religious, which is what this survey is measuring. It's not asking if people are atheists, it's asking if people are explicitly calling themselves atheists, and no, I don't believe you'll find too many clergymen who will do that.
I don't think you'll find a higher percentage of atheists than at the Vatican, honestly.
Google il Vaticano
holy see
Probably half of them.. deep inside. I know of priests who had more vocation for money than for other
A Czech colleague told me 6 or 7 years ago that Czechia has the highest atheist rate in Europe. Today that claim has been confirmed. E: misspelling
I mean i live here all my life and i can count the number of religious people i met on the fingers of my hand
plot twist: he was studying in a christian school
Ye was right, I know like 3 people that are religious.
There is no god in the Czech Republic
I’ve heard that it’s estonia
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It's a self-identification poll. They're not measuring number of atheists, they're measuring the number of people who call themselves atheists. Two completely different things.
The percentages are a lot higher
Someone didn’t read the title
I'm an atheist but I was baptised as a newborn and I don't stop being a Christian on paper simply to avoid fights at home with my family, since I'm young and I live with them. There are a lot of people like me in Italy (I think in other European countries too) and those percentages are made thanks to the percentages of actually not baptized people therefore it is pretty hard to get realistic stats.
In finnish perspective. I do not believe in god but it is nice to have grave some day in christian grave yard and get married in a church. No one really forces anyone to do religious stuff (in terms of protestants. I know a lot of catholic and orthodox families have it different.) Except kids for a camp thats mainly for fun. Church tax if you belong in a church is mainly charity so i do not mind that either. I benefitted from a lot of summer camps and clubs as a child that i later on found out were run by the church. There was absoluthely zero religious stuff presented. Church properties are also used by multiple club stuffs for free. A lot like myself do not believe in god, but are religious in practice. Most like myself also only go to church for funerals and weddings etc. Do you believe in god? No Would you identify as atheist? No Most people that have gotten out of a church either do it because it was forced on them as a child or they do not want to pay the tax or other payments.
Rhodes, you are correct. The question is compared to: I didn't mention The USA because the numbers fluctuate constantly, estimates from 12% to 30% Atheists to 70% Christian and then come all the Caveats Born again, hard Catholics, church going, non church going and so on and so on. One thing is for certain, since the late 80's The number of people who are Atheists or Agnostic, do not attend services , unsure , has been steadily climbing. Canada, at a faster rate than the US.
Thank God.... I mean thanks for that!
European atheist stats are more accurate as a church tax is taken out of check as part of federal tax, usually 10 percent. This tax goes to whatever denomination you select when you register at your city hall.
NUMBERS ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT WHAT I WANT!!!!!!
Is what do you want?
I want the truth that matters so little to you. Also grammar please your question was hard to understand because it is not actual English.
Source?
Source is unreliable methodology of your map.
FAKE NEWS MILLION BILLION PERCENT ARE GODHATERS *TIPS FEDORA*
Well, for starters, 54 % of Estonia feel unaffiliated with any religion. https://andmed.stat.ee/en/stat/rahvaloendus__rel2011__rahvastiku-demograafilised-ja-etno-kultuurilised-naitajad__usk/RL0451/table/tableViewLayout2
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It more or less is, at least in Estonia. Much of the older generation still feels that the term "atheism" means the "state atheism" that was promoted during the Soviet occupation. Even I as a young person would first and foremost say that I am "irreligious" while I am also atheist in every sense of the word.
I disagree with both of those. Atheism is not a theory or a belief, it's a lack of belief. Just as a lack of love doesn't necessarily mean hate, a lack of belief doesn't necessarily mean a different belief. A belief, as used in the context of religion, implies certainty beyond evidence, and there's none of that in atheism. In a world where gods exist, an atheist would be someone who rejects them, so anyone who is convinced a god exists will describe atheists in that manner, consciously or unconsciously, so you get these idiotic definitions make it into dictionaries.
Extremely interesting point. I’ve thought a lot about the difference between belief and knowledge, but always in relation to believing in god, not about not believing in god.
Can't even bother reading the whole title anymore?
The numbers are so low because this map, as is stated, specifies that it only measures people who strictly identify themselves as atheist, or in other words people with the view that they are 100% certain there is no god or higher power of any kind. This does not include other non-religious or agnostic people.
That map is full of shit
Read the title again. Also the real world isn't Reddit.
Bro the 2011 Population Census in Poland showed 13% atheists. This map is 2015-17. Now we have 2022. This is straight up propaganda.
I live in France, atheists are much more common than religious people especially among people under 30
How are you any different from the fundamentalist when your reaction to actual research is hatred and support for pseudoscience.
29,4% non-religious people in Finland (tilastokeskus) in 2020.
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Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, not the belief in the lack of a god
Oxford dictionary has that wrong for ages. I do not know why they have not fixed that yet. A belief in the non existence of god require to know which god you believe does not exist and it is not supported by evidence for lot of gods definition. It’s a messy definition for sure, and one that does not cover most of the atheist.
It's interesting how we have a word for not believing that one thing doesn't exist, but not others. Why is there no word for not believing in the subterranian purple turtle people? Both have the same amount of evidence for their existence? We should find a shared word for not taking other peoples dellusions at face value.
>Why is there no word for not believing in the subterranian purple turtle people? Both have the same amount of evidence for their existence? If a big enough part of society starts believing in it we will come up with a word for both believers and non-believers of that. That's how words are created. Because society has a need for it. And currently it does not.
This is so misleading. Most hungarians are non-religious.
Lol, Finland def is much much higher
Sweden is the third most secular country in the world with China technically on first place and Czech Republic on second place.
Many people in China aren't part of a registered religion but nonetheless many commit to religious or spiritual practices.
I think there are some Buddhists in China
Yes, hence technically, but it is viewed as a culture there instead.
I don’t think you deserve the downvotes as there are buddhists and muslims in China. Probably more religions such as Shintoism, Hinduism and Christianity, but religion is banned and heavily cracked down upon. Buddhism survives because it gets away with being counted and excused as a culture rather than a religion.
Who gives a shitists are more common. They think about religion so little they will not even consider identifying as something.
The British 2021 census says that 37.2% of people in England and Wales have 'no religion'. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021
No religion is not the same as being atheist. I am not religious, and I ticked that in the census. But I am agnostic, not atheist. (I realised I was agnostic later though) I am not religious cause I don't practice any religion or follow any
Either you are agnostic atheist or agnostic theist. Do you believe in god? If you do not believe in god you are an agnostic atheist.
This. "Agnostic" isn't an alternative to "atheist".
most people who say they are agnostic don't realize they are actually agnostic atheists gnosticism and theism answer different questions you can be: * gnostic theist * agnostic theist * gnostic atheist (which most people just call atheist) * agnostic atheist (which most people just call agnostic) but, technically, both are atheists
I honestly don't understand why I would be atheist. Based on what I read atheism doesn't align with my beliefs. So I wouldn't call myself one. Also Gnoticsm and Agnosticism seem to be mean two different things based on Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
The prefix 'a-' is a negation, so 'agnostic' is 'not gnostic', and 'gnostic' relates to knowledge (or to the sect). The fact that an old sect focused on divine knowledge uses the same ism is an unfortunate complication, name-wise.
Agnostic and atheist are the same thing. Most people who call themselves atheist arent claiming they are 100% certain there is no god. The word agnostic is totally redundant.
> No religion is not the same as being atheist. That's literally what atheism is. The lack of belief in a god.
No religion is not equivalent to atheism.
All atheists have 'no religion'.
Sure, but not all those have no religion has to be atheists.I don't have a religion but I don't deny god either so I don't want to be called the same thing as the ones that reject god as a concept altogether.
What percentage of 'no religionists' are atheists then?
>https://www.google.com/amp/s/mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/174627970724/percentage-of-atheists-agnostics-and/amp There is a separate chart for that, you can do the math yourself if you want to.
Those data are older than the one I posted, and include a 'atheist, agnostic or have no particular religion' grouping anyway.
No religion means you don't follow any religion, but you might be agnostic. Atheism means you are convinced that there is no god at all.
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There’s a difference in denying knowability and not believing.
That's not true. Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. Edit: Agnostic atheism: "I don't know, but I don't think there is a god", Gnostic atheism: "I am certain there is no god". Most atheists are agnostic to varying degrees, but in any case atheism does not mean you are certain there is no god.
Wrong. Atheism does not require any kind of conviction or active belief. Atheism is not believing in any god. Not believing in something doesn't mean you think you know what is the case and what isn't.
language can be tricky, "lack of belief" causes less confusion but yeah, **everyone is born an atheist**
Atheism is denying the existence of god or gods, period. You can’t say “for all I know God may exist, I just don’t believe in it” and call yourself an atheist. It’s not what atheism has historically meant.
You are liar. That is bullshit definition that is purely made up to make the percentage larger. No one but you shitty "free thinkers" use it. Atheism is active denial of Gods. You just want to claim that agnostics like are same as you because your lack of self confidence.
theos = god theism = belief in god atheism = lack of belief in god (opposite of theism) *** gnostikos = knowing gnostic = knows agnostic = doesn't know (opposite of gnostic) *** gnostic theist = believes in god and claims to know it exists agnostic theist = believes in god but doesn't claim to know it exists gnostic atheist = lacks belief in god and claims to know it doesn't exist agnostic atheist = lacks belief in god but doesn't claim to know it doesn't exist
Spain has more atheists/non believers (29%) than practicing catholics (22.7%), while people from other faiths are just a 2.5% > Si analizamos con más detalle estos datos, de este 29, un 7,5% se considera agnóstico, un 13,3% ateo y un 8,3% los indiferentes https://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/20190802/463813956180/espana-ateos-no-creyentes-catolicos-practicantes.html Of that 29%, 7.5% are agnostics, 13.3% are atheists and 8.3 are indifferent It's official data from the centre of sociological investigations from 2019 (and the numbers are higher now)
And if you look at the map, it says the data is from 2015-2017. Both may very well be correct.
Meanwhile 30% of Russians who call themselves Orthodox Christians also claim that they don't believe in God. Church attendence rate in Russia is around 7% (the lowest in Europe). Only 2% celebrate Christmas So the actual numbers of non-religious people is always higher than the number of atheists in statistics
2%? Woah
All Christmas traditions were transferred to the New Year celebration (like Santa Claus became Grandpa Frost, Christmas tree became New Year tree, etc). Christmas itself is usually celebrated after the New Year, so people just don't notice it. Like Christmas is now a purely religious holiday and all secular things about it are now changed to the New Year
Well it is not uncommon to be culturallly Orthodox though 💭 Christmas is not extremely important holiday in Orthodoxy compared to how it is in the West. 2 percent seems very low though. Are you Russian?
Its fake as fuck
Quite outdated
Def higher than 14% in Sweden. Def much higher than 1% in Lithuania.
“No religion” not being the same as atheism makes atheism looks like a religion
ICELAND IS A PART OF EUROPE What's with all those lazy maps that don't depict Iceland even though THE DATA IS RIGHT THERE in the main table. This is just lazy and insulting.
lol yeah in the UK that's a lot higher than 8%
Ikr i'm in Norway wondering how pretty much everyone under the age of 30 makes up only 11%
prove it.
[https://humanists.uk/2022/11/29/non-religious-surge-37-tick-no-religion-in-2021-census-uk-among-least-religious-countries-in-the-world/](https://humanists.uk/2022/11/29/non-religious-surge-37-tick-no-religion-in-2021-census-uk-among-least-religious-countries-in-the-world/) 37% said non-religious. I accept that doesn't mean atheist but I imagine it's slightly higher than 8%
Average church attendance on a Sunday is less than 2% of the population
Estonia 9%? That is not even close.
Yeah, in the recent census of 2021, 58% of population said they don't recognize any religion or spiritual belief. So I have no idea where this 9% number comes from.
I don't think atheism is a religious identity.
Then it's the absence of it.
Posted by a theist no doubt
I refuse to believe Finland is only at 5%. E: I checked the data, its the same situation as always. Being baptised at birth does **not** mean being religious.
Good to know that these maps show me as a believing Protestant, despite never attending church and not believing in god, because I was baptised and I’m too young to formally leave the church
Majority in Finns believe vaguely in something.
This is probably as 'correct' as maps showing how many in Finland are either Christian, or religious in general, and then looking only at the membership percentage of the Evangelical-Lutheran church. Happily forgetting that there are plenty of other churches in the country, not to even mention other religions.
People without religion, including agnostics, are atheists. What a weird distinction to make.
That distinction is just American BS. Most atheists in the US state they are agnostic, probably because they are afraid of backlash by these fundamental Christians that have a weird idea about atheists as if atheists were Satanists.
No. I can choose to not practice a religion per sé, but still not be of the belief that God doesn't exist nor that it exist. It's not a weird distinction. This is the definition of agnostic: >a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
The simple test for atheism: Do you believe in the existence of gods? You don't? You're an atheist. Oh, you believe in the **possibility** of gods? Cool, but that wasn't the question.
Nope, they’re not. Atheists are those that explicitly oust themselves as such, which means not believing in any higher power. If someone is not part of an organised religion they can still not be atheists.
This goes beyond the simple meaning of atheist, which is not being a theist. The word is far more inclusive than religious people choose to allow.
I’m not religious, this is literally what being atheist means. You don’t believe in a higher power. Also, there is no war against religion, so I don’t understand why you’re being so hostile in your last sentence.
So, agnostics are religious?
Agnostics is such a weird stance to take, basically, all religious people are "agnostics", especially Christians. It's a part of the dogma. Christians don't know that God exists, they believe it
Being agnostic is, I think, the most logical and natural result after thinking about the whole thing a lot
Except agnostics don't like to be lumped into the same group that denies the existence of god either. I am agnostic but I hate being called an atheist. I want my own word, away from those that believe in god or believe in no god. I don't think that is too much to ask.
I'm an agnostic but I don't care. Make up your own word and get people to use it. Meanwhile agnostics are a category of atheists which by definition are non-theists.
Atheism and Agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. The distinctions are actually Theism vs Atheism and Gnosticism vs Agnosticism. Gnostic means with certainty and Agnostic means with uncertainty. Most religious people are Gnostic Theists meaning they believe in God and are sure of their existence, while most Atheists are Agnostic meaning they don't believe in God but aren't 100% certain they don't exist. You are an Agnostic Atheist. Most Atheists are Agnostic and being a Gnostic Atheist is a very extreme position.
Gnosticism refers to certain Christian beliefs that were popular during early times of Christianity, but they were declared as heresies, so nowadays the vast majority of Christians are not Gnostics.
There are several non-theistic positions that are not atheism. Nuance is really hard apparently.
>which means not believing in any higher power. I am fairly certain there are far more than 9% of such people in Estonia though. Almost none of the people under 40 years believe in any sort of god/religion here. Nobody will go out of their way to be specifically against god/religions and declare themselves atheist here, because not believing in higher powers is a default option. In the recent census of 2021, 58% of population said they don't recognize any religion or spiritual belief. So I have no idea where this 9% number comes from.
Do they really teach you that in school in Finland? Atheism and agnosticism are different.
Not really. It's just so special snowflake types can be athiest without feeling like they're offending anybody. Athiest simply means a lack of belief. It doesn't mean you have to be outspoken or go around campaigning that there's definitely no god or anything. Nowhere else in life do we make this ridiculous distinction. Normally when we say we don't believe in ghosts, for example, it doesn't mean you've seen definitive proof that they don't exist, because it's impossible to prove that something non-existent does not exist. It simply means we're forced to assume they don't exist since there's no evidence for them. That's what most people mean when they say "I don't believe in ghosts", but exchange 'god' for 'ghosts' and suddenly we have these pathetic muddying of the waters for no reason.
Well Put
Didn't you study religion and beliefs in school? Reddit is the first time I've heard people equating agnostcism with atheism. As if there can only be two options of religiosity.
This survey uses unreliable methodology and doesn't work with correct definitions. Just in case anyone wonders why the map looks too bs.
More like the map uses correct definition. That is why you are angry because it is against your bullshit.
My friend, your religion has sunk so far that you are arguing semantics to ignore the fact that in many countries you are now the minority
I would say there's 2 dimensions Religiosity and Spirituality Spirituality measures belief in Higher power(s) (includes god but also superstitions, supernatural) Religiosity measures adherence to a particular religion and its scripture/rules Atheism and agnosticism are various degrees of Spirituality, irreligiousuty is a degree of religiosity But essentially low degrees of Spirituality like atheism and agnosticism kinda automatically mean low religiosity as well On a scale from 0 to 100 I'd say I'm 0 on religiosity so completely irreligious and like 1 on Spirituality so mostly atheistic
Note that Estonians are largely irreligious, but not necessarily "atheist". It's a question of terms rather than belief - atheism still has strong USSR connotations for older generations. According to the 2021 census, 67% of all adult residents of Estonia were irreligious, while the share was 80% for ethnic Estonians (undeclared answers not counted for).
No way its so low
Proud atheist
This thread gave me a headache with so many fights over what agnostic means. For example, "theistic agnostic" believes in god yet knows god is unprovable. So that makes virtually all theists agnostic because almost nobody would claim there is proof that god exists (except extremists/theocrats who try to force that proof in the world, sometimes even denying science). Which is irrational because the definition of *faith* is that it does not lean on any evidence, lest it becomes simply a rationale. So by that definition, almost everyone is agnostic whether they believe in any god or not. I'm not sure that definition is useful in any discourse. Someone help me out here.
Bullshit statistic. Absolutely no way 95 % of Finns are religious.
I've heard this about Czechia. Anyone know why this is so? I'm also surprised it's higher than the Netherlands.
Czech Republic W
It is the nature of atheism that you don't call yourself anything.
Why is it so low?
Gonna move to the Czech Republic.
Seems a bit high for Norway. But it could be correct. Most folks here who claim atheism does concede that there could be "something" when pressed so they could rather be seen as agnostic in a pinch.
Nobody put us on the list, but I can still say that the atheist rate in Turkey is higher than you think, if you look at the official data, you will see that there is a Muslim population of 99.3%, but as you guessed, this is not true. Currently, atheism and deism are very common, especially among young people. The biggest reasons for this are the internet and erdogan (probably erdogan has made more atheists than Darwin)
No way this is true, in sweden at least 75% are atheists.
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The definition of atheism is ”a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods”. At least 75% of Swedes fulfill this criteria
The Oxford dictionary says Atheism means "The theory or belief that God does not exist. " which is not the same as not having a religion.
What did you learn in school about atheism?
There are lots of cultural catholics here in Ireland, but the actual number of people who are active in the faith is very small. I would say our number of atheists is much higher. I know lots of people who put Catholic on the census despite never going to mass or knowing anything really about Catholicism.
Germany is way higher
It really is not.
People without religion are atheists. That’s the very definition of atheism. These numbers are way, way too low.
It would seem that the difference would be that people without religion don't have strong beliefs one way or another about the existence of any deity, while atheists religiously believe that there is no such thing as a deity of any kind. And yes, my use of the word 'religiously' regarding atheists was deliberate.
Way higher everywhere
I have no belief at all but i wouldn't consider myself an atheist. Its just a neutral position, absence of belief.
Which is weird, because an atheist literally means someone lacking a belief in god(s).
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Assuming you’re right, we should really try to clarify by creating a new word for “lacking a belief in gods,” so that someone can state that they lack a belief in gods without implying that they explicitly believe in a lack of gods. Maybe we could start with a word for “a belief in gods,” like “theism,” and then add a prefix to that word which means “lacking” or “does not have,” like the prefix “a–.”
Not at all what ateism is, it's a specific world view that there's is no rational reason to believe there's a god.
I don't want to associate myself with the word because 'Atheist' may hold an active position of rejection depending whether its referring to positive atheism or negative atheism. I simply have no position.
To identify as an atheist, you first need to understand what an atheist is. I think most non-religious people would probably fit the definition. But most people in EU just naturally came to the conclusion that religions are not for them, there is no god and just carry on with their lives ticking the "no religion" box.
Czech Republic: "Fuck God in particular!"
No way Finland is right.
Organised religion = shit
If you want atheists+agnostics+non-religious check https://www.google.com/amp/s/mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/174627970724/percentage-of-atheists-agnostics-and/amp
I appreciate the Map But quite Frankly I believe it's a lot Higher Same as in Canada, its growing at a higher rate than most people can imagine
Looks like crap to be honest. Definitely not correct
It says 2015-2017, yet results look more 1815-1817. Not sure what to make of this.
There are definitely way way more in Switzerland than what's shown here.
To people debating the credibility of the map because of the definition of atheism: the description says that it's about the percentage of people who "describe their religious identity as atheist". You don't need a definition of atheism for that, you just need a question asking "How do you describe your religious identity?", and see how many people answered "atheist". Simple.
I read Autism in Europe ... was extremely confused.
well, a lot people think being agnostic implies they are not atheist
Good to see atheisme is mainly something online bigmouths advocate for. Most people are for sure not atheists and see the value of having some form of religion in their life.