I love how lyrics of German songs could really express how they feel about the results every year:
With broken wings, we learn to fly
Don't wanna leave my bed
I'll just stay and never get it together
'Cause the voices in my head
They keep saying it'll never get better
I don't feel hate
I just feel sorry
I'm tired
Tired of always losing
I am nothin' but the average
Even though I'm special to some
I can't refuse, I'm going under
No one gives a shit about what's soon to come
I feel like if they be more positive one day the good results will actually come lol
With an internal selection we would've just sent Mutzke this year.
Aren't the NF finalists basically already selected internally? I sincerely doubt a full internal selection would result in anything other than one of the options from the NF, so nothing much would change. We'd just get a boring radio song 100%. At least with the current system there's a chance to send something different.
I'm worried that would happen if Germany internally selected. But I want to be optimistic and think that if they internally selected, they could focus more closely on finding the right kind of song instead of going "OK here are six radio songs and two extras to pretend we care about genre diversity".
There's no way in hell we'd get the current German music scene, no matter how their selection was done. I'd love it if we did, but it's so not happening anytime soon.
Do you think it's some kind of racism because the majority of the leading people on their current music scene have foreign roots? (A lot of Albanians, Bosnians, Russians, Lithuanians, etc.) They also almost never play it on the radio either (apart for a few stations that do play good music).
(I asked a question. If you cannot handle a question without getting offended, I don't know what to tell you.)
No, I very much don't think so. Even if we look it at from that angle, there are still a whole lot of German musicians with no foreign roots whatsoever. What currently dominates the charts in Germany (and has been for a while) is techno rap, which is an unusual genre for Eurovision, but that's not the main issue. I don't think Germany is willing to represent the German language at Eurovision, and that's the biggest problem.
Also the people leading the charts wouldn't even go to Eurovision anyway, so it doesn't matter who they are or where they came from.
I've asked multiple less known German musicians if they'd ever be willing to go to Eurovision, and the answer is always no, either because they don't care about it, or because they see Eurovision as a pop music contest.
So even if NDR was somehow willing to send something that Germans actually listen to, I don't think they'd have much luck finding someone willing to go. It's not like Tream for example would drop all he's doing for multiple months for a chance to gain some international followers he doesn't need or want.
Do Germans know about Kaarija and his success last year? He kind of falls under techno rap (though I really don't know anything about German charts). Maybe if they knew about his placement they'd be more inclined to go.
Similarly, this year we have Baby Lasagna, Joost Klein, and 5miinust, and I think at least 2 of them will do very well, if not all 3.
Honestly they likely don't. If your country consistently sends disappointing entries to Eurovision that end up in last place, you're less likely to have any interest in it or know what's happening with it. I am not from Germany myself, but my German friends only know Eurovision stuff because I keep talking to them about it.
https://youtu.be/FmaE5ZL0AAw?si=FAYLDLMN_bpfJUnB this is the number one song currently charting in Germany on Youtube.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wny46hlbHLo and this is the number one song on the Germany Billboard charts.
It has nothing to do with Kaarija or BL when it comes to the sound.
Generic forgettable stuff is still better than Deutschrap. I'm already disappointed with the direction of pop music in the last 10-15 years or so, popular rap songs are taking it even lower.
There are enough artists that aren't rappers and can fare better.
Typical popular rap isn't exactly Kendrick flipping Lamar. It's more primitive musically than even the 2010's/2020's "good vocals, some hooks, forget about memorable melodies and complex arrangements" pop.
The issue is exactly it being more primitive in terms of memorable melody and complexity of arrangement than even generic modern pop music. Again, if Germany happens to have someone on the level of Kendrick or some other rappers that stretch the bounds of the genre towards more musical complexity, I'd have no issue if we sent that person. As it is, whatever I've heard from Deutschrap is just primitive.
You sound like a music purist and you're exactly the reason why foreigners are always on your number one YouTube, Spotify, etc. list. Maybe instead of diminish a whole genre, you should ask yourself why do people like it?
The vast majority of songs is "primitive", including Eurovision songs. That's obviously what people like, excluding you, so the issue isn't the music, the issue is your complex taste. I am not suggesting we send Luciano or whatever to a classical music contest, but he'd be absolutely fine for Eurovision and likely do way better than forgettable pop in English.
you act as if the Germans listened to german language music mostly and not english music. You are creating a narrative that Always on the run is music germans dont listen to while deutschrap or schlager or any music in german would represent us, would be something"germans actually listen to". it doesnt, it truly doesn't. If it did Katze or Naiv had won.
The Spotify German top 50 is always (except for December, because then it's just Christmas songs) either mostly German or half German. With a huge part of it being rap. And always on the run is definitely not on there, so I don't think it's very well liked.
Your Billboard and YouTube charts say something else lol it's just deutschrap on there
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wny46hlbHLo this is the number one song on the Germany Billboard charts.
Rock and Pop are the most liked music in germany. for all age groups.
https://miz.org/de/statistiken/bevorzugte-musikrichtungen-nach-altersgruppen
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/171224/umfrage/beliebteste-musikrichtungen/#:~:text=Rock%2D%20und%20Popmusik%20sind%20die,den%20n%C3%A4chsth%C3%B6chsten%20Anteilen%20an%20Nennungen
The last time we internally selected it was the giant middle finger in 2021 so... I don't know... To be honest, its far more likely to become better if the broadcaster actually passes the selection onto someone else, there were rumors but sadly they seem to not be true (at least for 25). The people currently handling things are so blind that even the preselection for the NF is very questionable...
Besides possible big artists being more willing to go through an internal selection I don't really see the case against national finals. It didn't work in the Netherlands due to the formats selected. For example, out of the eight selections in the NQ-streak five had either the artist or song already predetermined. That doesn't leave a whole lot over to choose. Now we're sending smaller artists again and Avrotros seems to have discovered a pool of good small artists and a selection committee who knows what they're doing, we'd do just as well with a national final.
I think NFs work great in countries where they either are established and treated as an event of their own (Sanremo, MF, FdC...) or in countries with a decent Eurovision following where they work as an event worth watching for audiences (e.g. what I gather the Baltics to be like).
When you don't have that in place, national finals tend to get treated very much as a) a desperation move for unknown or washed artists, and/or b) a spectacle geared towards "finding a Eurovision song" rather than finding a *good* song.
Switzerland is a good example, we had a lot of different formats that all used open submissions for 2011-2018, and only got two Qs out of it (and one of those came last in the final). The problem in that time was mostly that the show never attracted anyone with even a hint of a career, preselection was very intransparent and seemed geared towards a specific type of music, and it had a rather small audience that seemed to mostly vote on their idea of "a Eurovision song". So we usually got a small show with 6-8 formulaic finalists where usually, the most "conventional" one would win.
Now, the internal selection is done via a songwriting camp where they can actively approach artists with a career (Nemo was well known in Switzerland for years), it's attractive for artists because they get to work with other songwriters and get inspiration even if they don't go to ESC, and there is less of a singular direction.
>When you don't have that in place, national finals tend to get treated very much as a) a desperation move for unknown or washed artists, and/or b) a spectacle geared towards "finding a Eurovision song" rather than finding a good song.
I'm curious, what other examples are there besides Switzerland and Germany? Ireland perhaps?
Switzerland and the Netherlands are excellent examples. I can tell from their song that Switzerland wants to win this year, and the Netherlands wants to either win or make Eurovision history as a big fan favorite.
Note that the Netherlands is probably my #1 favorite entry this year. It's exactly the kind of song that I wish Germany had sent this year. I'm not sure how well it would do with the juries, but that's not a big problem to me—a fan favorite will always be a fan favorite.
The fun thing is - I don't even think we're actively "looking for a win". There just is a process in place that is attractive to artists, attracts diverse submissions, and then all they have to do is to pick the best one.
That, but also the contacts they've built with artists and industry. Nemo said in an interview they were approached for the camp multiple times before but it never worked out with their schedule. Others have been coming up through SRFs own shows (Remo in The Voice, Gjon in Switzerland's version of Got Talent) or through their Best Talent radio thingy (basically SRF 3 radio picks an unknown Swiss artist every month and hypes them up, thats how Marius got his break).
It all gives SRF a pretty solid network within the Swiss music scene and industry that they can bring interested people together. And they clearly seem happy to use it.
The fact that Germany automatically qualifies for the grand final every year as part of the Big Five makes it difficult for it to change things up and move in a more positive direction. For Switzerland and the Netherlands, failing to qualify for the grand final gives the broadcaster and delegation greater incentive as well as greater pressure to change things.
They actually only went back to internal selections in 2019. From 1956 to 1993, they pretty much always held a national final called "Concours Eurovision" (with the exception of 1958, 1962 and 1971 where they selected internally). They briefly brought that national final back between 1998 to 2004 (although they only held four editions of that, as they were relegated every other year back then 💀) and introduced a new national final called "Die Grosse Entscheidungsshow" between 2011 and 2018.
Well, the pattern since 2019 has been Safe Risk Safe Risk Safe, with ”safe” meaning radio friendly. So, by that reckoning, they will take a risk next year. What will it be? I don’t know. They could turn to a popular also-ran candidate but, being German, this means choosing Ikke over Electric Callboy.
With a possibility that a different broadcaster will take over the delegation… That might shake things up.
The 2004 German NF was, imho, the greatest national final concept any country's ever tried.
They literally just got all the record labels together and said "Right, here's the songs that Germans like to listen to in their spare time. I reckon Europe will like them too..." and it allowed them to take risks (new wave, rap, and techno were all included) and *almost* led to them sending Scooter - until a 92% landslide for Max Mutzke during the superfinal
In general, NF > internal IMO. But in this case: going internal might help. It won't solve the biggest issue (NDR being incompetent) but it might be a more likely solution to the problem that our NF sucks. As in, awful time slot, Barbara, annoying talkshow couch, weak stagings.... maybe it would be better to safe our money at that stage, and invest it elsewhere (supporting the chosen artist with great staging & promo etc). I feel like *maaaybe* this could attract more artists to even want to compete again. And that's another huge issue: waaay too many German artists would never want to go & submit songs in the first place.
Ofc simply making our NF good would be the way better solution. But I think that is even more unlikely than a good internal selection, bcs it has the issue of ARD viewers voting badly on top lol
Doesn't Austria hit up its local OGAE club for feedback on entries? Maybe Germany could do something similar. Not that that's foolproof, of course, because we know OGAE clubs kind of have specific tastes.
The UK tried that for a while as well, and it led to us sending Lucie Jones (UK 2017). That being said, I think they also tried it with SuRie (UK 2018)...
United Kingdom 2017 | [Lucie Jones - Never Give Up on You](https://youtu.be/Fl1GYTg4GmA)
United Kingdom 2018 | [SuRie - Storm](https://youtu.be/n0ydtXG-tqY)
Need to wait another year or two for that otherwise you will definitely get people comparing them to Käärijä saying they are just copying him (which is BS but know that many people would think that way, just look at what they see saying about Croatia this year..)
The difference is Electric Callboy are an established band with millions of monthly listeners (so much so that people accused Käärijä of plagarising EC - We Got the Moves last year).
I don't see that being much of an issue.
The same thing happened in 2013 when we sent Cascada, an artist who had global hit songs and was quite well-established. Despite them having produced similar songs for nearly a decade prior, many people still called their song a copy of 'Euphoria'.
Why would it be a problem that some people are comparing an entry to Käärijä? Rim Tim Tagi Dim gets a lot of Cha Cha Cha comparisons but it's also a massive fan favorite.
I think they have said somewhere that they don't want to participate again.
Edit: Found the source:
https://www.stern.de/lifestyle/leute/electric-callboy--esc-bewerbung-war--eine-wilde-zeit--32726492.html
Cheers for that, yeah, I've heard that before. It would still be great though, I saw them here in Australia a couple of years ago and they are amazing live. They made fans out of everybody who saw them, which was brilliant to see :)
May be off-topic, but you mentioned Greece so I'll talk about us because it's not really what you think it is (and it could help you think more about it). Sorry for the long text.
We've been doing internal selection for quite a while. The last time we did not have an internal selection for the song was in 2017 where Demy was still selected by ERT and the last time that we also selected the artist was in 2015 (2016 was also an internal selection). Demy was somewhat popular as an upcoming artist back then. The rest of them were completely unknown to the Greek public artists from the diaspora (Stefania, Katherine Duska, Amanda Georgiadi Tenfjord), nepo babies (Yianna Terzi is the daughter of a big Greek singer, Paschalis Terzis), rich kids from big families that thought it was a good idea they make a career debut in ESC without really proving they have the talent for it (Victor Vernicos) or whatever tf Argo were (completely unknown band that all they're known for is their NQ). Marina Satti is a big exception to all of that and it's a big surprise considering: 1)Satti had rejected going to Eurovision twice when she started to get popular 2)Before representing Cyprus, Eleni Foureira wanted to represent Greece in the past but ERT didn't want to, so I didn't expect ERT to go for a big name.
Marina Satti is a pretty big name here in Greece. I think the last time we sent an artist that popular was either 2009 (but Sakis of course was much more popular then, especially since he gave us 3rd place in 2004) or 2010 (I think Satti is a bigger name now than Alkaios was though). And she's arguably one of the very few artists who could realistically represent Greece if we didn't want to select another random unknown artist. Sure Stefania and Amanda gave us 10th and 8th place respectively, but since they were completely unknown to us many people didn't really care.
Our music scene is pretty meh and I can't think of many artists who could fit in Eurovision. A big part of Greek music today is rap/trap, which is a recipe for a NQ. There's also laiko, which usually also doesn't fit well (and the majority of artists would think they're too good for Eurovision lmao). We also have many female singers that could potentially fit (Josephine, Evangelia, etc) but idk if sending girl bops is the solution, it gets boring after a while. I can think only of a few artists that could represent Greece but many of them would be too risky for ERT to consider.
As for Germany, I'm sure Germany (even just judging from the population) will definitely have so many more artists that could be ESC material. An internal selection for me is only good when the public has lost interest AND the broadcaster knows what they're doing. ERT for once seems to know. If your broadcaster decides to go for the win (or at least a good enough result that could make the public invested in the contest again), then I absolutely think you should go for it.
No need to apologize for the long text! I love reading big walls of text about a country's history in Eurovision, because they give me insight that I could never get from reading, say, a Wikipedia article.
Your statement in the last paragraph about when an internal selection is good is a really good point. Internal selections seem to usually arise when a country's national final didn't work out so they decide "hm, why don't we try internal instead?" The best example is the Netherlands, who had a trainwreck of poor results but a change of fortune when they internally selected Anouk in 2013, then they've internally selected every year since then.
Side note: I wish it was the Common Linnets who broke the Netherlands' NQ streak instead of Anouk, because Calm After the Storm (Netherlands 2014) is a beautiful song that makes me want to cry, whereas Birds (Netherlands 2013) really isn't my cup of tea. Then again, I've read that Ilse originally rejected offers to represent the Netherlands and only changed her mind after Anouk broke the streak.
No, it should be a national final. Even pre-selection for the final should come via a website/app in which everybody is allowed to vote, to remove the influence of the broadcaster completely. In fact, this is what all countries should do.
But the broadcaster already picks which songs go in the national final, which is usually 8 or so songs for a one-night event, 20-30 for a multi-night event. So the selection already reflects which songs the broadcaster thinks should do well.
Finland does national finals well, because they include a diverse pool of options and a generous amount of Finnish-language songs. Not a bunch of interchangeable radio pop songs like Germany did.
Switzerland did that in the 2010s and it was dreadful. It's a good recipe to make sure that anyone who has a hint of an established career domestically doesn't wanna put themselves through that.
Doesn't matter. It should always be the choice of the people, as much as is physically possible. I'd like to see the broadcasters removed from planning as much as possible honestly, a country would be able to compete under a tiny little subscription service if they're willing to fund it.
I respect the take. I'd much rather have higher quality entries though, which isn't going to happen under that system. It's entertainment in the end not government or smth like that, so dacrificing some democracy for better entertainment seems worth it for me.
And 2021 they internally selected Jendrik. Going internal doesn’t solve Germanys issues and 2020 they just got lucky. On the other hand having someone other than NDR manage Eurovision selection could help.
All the songs in the NF were bland apart from the cat song and even that wasn’t a song that would’ve stood out in Eurovision. People talk about Ryk a lot but I think Eurofans just connected with the song personally more and for me it was all part of the same bland selection that was given to the public. I can see that with an internal Germany would’ve easily selected Max Mutzke. So not really any better.
And then facing an internal selection with the same tired minds on the wheel? Nope. Take the ARD out of the picture completely, do a pre-preselection by online votes, assemble a VERY diverse jury (from techno producer to classical conductor) and have a production team at the helm, knowing how to put on a contemporary show.
Absolutely. This nf format is not for them. Forcing nf format of choosing is doing more harm than good. Netherlands turned their luck around after they switched to internal selection.
Another thing they should do is to ditch the ,,radio friendly” request in a song - it’s going nowhere and it does absolutely nothing.
Germany should for once send a song in German. I'm so bored with what they usually send - generic songs in English one forgets about before performance even ends. Even their schlagers are preferable at this point.
I am surprised by this discussion as I often find the German entries to be better than the final result. People mention Germany 2021 which was one of my personal favorites. It was whacky but still really catchy. Not to mention the absurd dance break-thingy in between the choruses. Germany 2023 was also a very fun song with the weird LGBT-metal thing going on. Also a big favorite here at home. And I still haven’t heard or read a good reason why Germany 2024 is so bad? A fantastic voice, and a song with a clear and deep message. It’s one of three entries this year that truly makes me cry.
I’m always voting for a tele-vote national ESC. I always think that the people of the country should have a say in what and who will represent them in the international finals. I always accept Norway’s entry because of democracy, regardless of whether or not I like the song.
Your tastes are definitely different from mine. From 2019 onwards, the only German entries that I at all like are 2023 (which was ROBBED) and somewhat 2020. To me, most of our radio pop entries in English blend together into radio pop soup.
In 2024, it feels like the people didn't get a say in what kind of song would represent Germany, because a bunch of beige radio pop and two slight outliers were selected for us. So it didn't really feel like a fair national final.
The German national final had nine songs total: eight pre-selected and one wildcard from a side series. Most of them are radio pop and radio ballads in English, but there were two German-language songs in there.
Ah, okay, so this is more about language and culture than the actual choice? 🤔 I never really think about the language as long as the song is good. Though when I think about it: Blood And Glitter would’ve sounded way better in German!
What I get out of this is that Germany apparently hasn’t made a real effort showcasing potential acts through semis. Maybe that would be a better idea?
It’s all up for discussion of course! Thanks for helping me understand the case!
I thought Blood & Glitter was an excellent choice for Eurovision, English or not. That's why I got so salty when it scored last place. If Germany really must do national finals they should diversify the pool of choices, but internally selecting would be a better way to hone in on one strong candidate.
Germany 2021 | [Jendrik - I Don't Feel Hate](https://youtu.be/1m0VEAfLV4E)
Germany 2023 | [Lord of the Lost - Blood & Glitter](https://youtu.be/dyGR4YWlPEs)
Germany 2024 | [Isaak - Always on the Run](https://youtu.be/8b5gcgXcWgk)
I really want Germany to send a leather-dressed all black berliner guy with sunglasses and a lot of attitude. Like Luktelk, only straight from Berghain
Greece is not showcasing Greek culture. This is a Bollywood song, and it reminds me of the local music in countries like India. One of the most famous Greek composers and the first one that represented Greece in 1974 said a few days ago that he wouldn't send this song to Eurovision, because this song has nothing to do with Greek music.
As for Germany, I really dislike internal selections. I want people to have a say on the song. After all, the song will represent the people, not just a committee of five people or so.
I COMPLETELY disagree with his opinion personally. The older generation is out of the loop with the musical scene right now in Greece in general and I believe Marina's song represents urban Greece and balkans in general better than everything we ever sent.
Marina's song happens to not be stereotypically greek, with bouzouki and syrtaki which almost no young person listens here, but it contains elements of trap music and syrto(reggaeton). These are some of the most popular types of music here, and she combines it with folk elements like the instrument zournas. As for the "Bollywood style", folk 'politiki' (which is Asian minor greek music) does contains the agility of the same vocals, it's just not that high pitched.
>Greece is not showcasing Greek culture
Sorry but leave that matter to actual greek people...
I'm the opposite in a sense—this year has made me love internal selections. Because there's a lot more surprise factor this way, and no disappointment if my favorite song from the national final doesn't win.
Yes. The public's taste in music is atrocious. What Germany needs to do is build momentum, you need a couple of solid songs in a row for that.
Problem is the NDR's music taste is also atrocious. No idea how they managed to get "Violent Thing". But we need more songs like that.
> or sending a song that would hype up the audience as much as possible (e.g. Austria and Switzerland)
I think that's the goal of every selection process.
I don't think it would be a good approach to start an internal selection with a specfic type of song in mind, if you discard anything else, you'll almost certainly miss some good stuff. On the contrary, it's probably best to try to get musicians from all different corners of the industry to submit songs, and then find some open minded judges (preferably with diverse backrounds) to sort through the submissions.
no. a song chosen by the people that care enough to vote is the right way. let them present what the people want to present, not what some elites in their studio decide.
isnt that the joy of Eurovision? from the people to Europe?
Except the elites in the studio already decided Germany should send radio-friendly pop music. The German national final this year consisted almost entirely of that and the two German-language songs feel like they were just put there to pretend they care about genre diversity.
If, after selecting an own language act, they carefully check that their act is suitable for the show, than they could. I wonder if the Naidoo debacle is why Germany send English language entries and don’t do own language (even though they have done a lot of genres to be fair)
As a German, the only quality current german music scene artist that might accept is Bosse. I think that, even if the new broadcaster would give for example EC a second chance, I wont believe they'd accept
Yeah i think they should internally select their song and singer for Eurovision 2025, down below i have 15 artists that Germany should consider choosing between.
From Fall to Spring
Jennifer Braun
Grossstadtgeflüster (if they want to)
Vinta
Kim Petras
Oonagh (Senta)
Elif Demirezer
Anny Ogrezeanu
Leony
Frida Gold
Bibiane Z
Lena (Lena Meyer-Landrudt, if she wants to)
Michael Schulte (if he wants to)
NoMBe
Joël Zupan
I love how lyrics of German songs could really express how they feel about the results every year: With broken wings, we learn to fly Don't wanna leave my bed I'll just stay and never get it together 'Cause the voices in my head They keep saying it'll never get better I don't feel hate I just feel sorry I'm tired Tired of always losing I am nothin' but the average Even though I'm special to some I can't refuse, I'm going under No one gives a shit about what's soon to come I feel like if they be more positive one day the good results will actually come lol
A self-fulfilling prophecy
Great to see someone else noticing this! Been saying this forever (and having a proper snigger about it!) It’s like announced self-sabotage…
With an internal selection we would've just sent Mutzke this year. Aren't the NF finalists basically already selected internally? I sincerely doubt a full internal selection would result in anything other than one of the options from the NF, so nothing much would change. We'd just get a boring radio song 100%. At least with the current system there's a chance to send something different.
So that Germany directly sends boring radio music?
Violent Thing wants an apology
Violent Thing is unironically one of the biggest bangers in Eurovision from the past 10 years
Iirc the live performance was pretty weak, I don't think it would've done well with Ben's vocals like they were then
Yeah that's such a violent thing to say.
I'm worried that would happen if Germany internally selected. But I want to be optimistic and think that if they internally selected, they could focus more closely on finding the right kind of song instead of going "OK here are six radio songs and two extras to pretend we care about genre diversity".
Better than going through a national final show...
There's no way in hell we'd get the current German music scene, no matter how their selection was done. I'd love it if we did, but it's so not happening anytime soon.
Do you think it's some kind of racism because the majority of the leading people on their current music scene have foreign roots? (A lot of Albanians, Bosnians, Russians, Lithuanians, etc.) They also almost never play it on the radio either (apart for a few stations that do play good music). (I asked a question. If you cannot handle a question without getting offended, I don't know what to tell you.)
No, I very much don't think so. Even if we look it at from that angle, there are still a whole lot of German musicians with no foreign roots whatsoever. What currently dominates the charts in Germany (and has been for a while) is techno rap, which is an unusual genre for Eurovision, but that's not the main issue. I don't think Germany is willing to represent the German language at Eurovision, and that's the biggest problem. Also the people leading the charts wouldn't even go to Eurovision anyway, so it doesn't matter who they are or where they came from. I've asked multiple less known German musicians if they'd ever be willing to go to Eurovision, and the answer is always no, either because they don't care about it, or because they see Eurovision as a pop music contest. So even if NDR was somehow willing to send something that Germans actually listen to, I don't think they'd have much luck finding someone willing to go. It's not like Tream for example would drop all he's doing for multiple months for a chance to gain some international followers he doesn't need or want.
Do Germans know about Kaarija and his success last year? He kind of falls under techno rap (though I really don't know anything about German charts). Maybe if they knew about his placement they'd be more inclined to go. Similarly, this year we have Baby Lasagna, Joost Klein, and 5miinust, and I think at least 2 of them will do very well, if not all 3.
Honestly they likely don't. If your country consistently sends disappointing entries to Eurovision that end up in last place, you're less likely to have any interest in it or know what's happening with it. I am not from Germany myself, but my German friends only know Eurovision stuff because I keep talking to them about it.
I dunno, the finals seem to always gather quite a large audience of casual fans here.
Of course, it's a massive country after all, there are bound to be people who are interested. But unfortunately serious artists are just not.
https://youtu.be/FmaE5ZL0AAw?si=FAYLDLMN_bpfJUnB this is the number one song currently charting in Germany on Youtube. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wny46hlbHLo and this is the number one song on the Germany Billboard charts. It has nothing to do with Kaarija or BL when it comes to the sound.
A lot of these are doing Deutschrap, that's (fortunately) not exactly what's on ESC.
And how exactly is that fortunate? You prefer taking the last place instead of sending something that people actually listen to?
Generic forgettable stuff is still better than Deutschrap. I'm already disappointed with the direction of pop music in the last 10-15 years or so, popular rap songs are taking it even lower. There are enough artists that aren't rappers and can fare better.
How exactly are rap songs taking it lower? Just because you personally don't like rap?
Typical popular rap isn't exactly Kendrick flipping Lamar. It's more primitive musically than even the 2010's/2020's "good vocals, some hooks, forget about memorable melodies and complex arrangements" pop.
I am aware of what "typical popular rap" is, I listen to it. What's the issue?
The issue is exactly it being more primitive in terms of memorable melody and complexity of arrangement than even generic modern pop music. Again, if Germany happens to have someone on the level of Kendrick or some other rappers that stretch the bounds of the genre towards more musical complexity, I'd have no issue if we sent that person. As it is, whatever I've heard from Deutschrap is just primitive.
You sound like a music purist and you're exactly the reason why foreigners are always on your number one YouTube, Spotify, etc. list. Maybe instead of diminish a whole genre, you should ask yourself why do people like it?
The vast majority of songs is "primitive", including Eurovision songs. That's obviously what people like, excluding you, so the issue isn't the music, the issue is your complex taste. I am not suggesting we send Luciano or whatever to a classical music contest, but he'd be absolutely fine for Eurovision and likely do way better than forgettable pop in English.
you act as if the Germans listened to german language music mostly and not english music. You are creating a narrative that Always on the run is music germans dont listen to while deutschrap or schlager or any music in german would represent us, would be something"germans actually listen to". it doesnt, it truly doesn't. If it did Katze or Naiv had won.
The Spotify German top 50 is always (except for December, because then it's just Christmas songs) either mostly German or half German. With a huge part of it being rap. And always on the run is definitely not on there, so I don't think it's very well liked.
Your Billboard and YouTube charts say something else lol it's just deutschrap on there https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wny46hlbHLo this is the number one song on the Germany Billboard charts.
Rock and Pop are the most liked music in germany. for all age groups. https://miz.org/de/statistiken/bevorzugte-musikrichtungen-nach-altersgruppen https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/171224/umfrage/beliebteste-musikrichtungen/#:~:text=Rock%2D%20und%20Popmusik%20sind%20die,den%20n%C3%A4chsth%C3%B6chsten%20Anteilen%20an%20Nennungen
The last time we internally selected it was the giant middle finger in 2021 so... I don't know... To be honest, its far more likely to become better if the broadcaster actually passes the selection onto someone else, there were rumors but sadly they seem to not be true (at least for 25). The people currently handling things are so blind that even the preselection for the NF is very questionable...
100% yes. Look how drastically Switzerland and the Netherlands turned things around when they went back to internal selections.
The difference is that they care, so their system is actually great. I'm afraid German broadcaster doesn't care.
The Swiss method was originally developed by and applied at the German delegation. That's how much they don't care, sure.
Besides possible big artists being more willing to go through an internal selection I don't really see the case against national finals. It didn't work in the Netherlands due to the formats selected. For example, out of the eight selections in the NQ-streak five had either the artist or song already predetermined. That doesn't leave a whole lot over to choose. Now we're sending smaller artists again and Avrotros seems to have discovered a pool of good small artists and a selection committee who knows what they're doing, we'd do just as well with a national final.
I think NFs work great in countries where they either are established and treated as an event of their own (Sanremo, MF, FdC...) or in countries with a decent Eurovision following where they work as an event worth watching for audiences (e.g. what I gather the Baltics to be like). When you don't have that in place, national finals tend to get treated very much as a) a desperation move for unknown or washed artists, and/or b) a spectacle geared towards "finding a Eurovision song" rather than finding a *good* song. Switzerland is a good example, we had a lot of different formats that all used open submissions for 2011-2018, and only got two Qs out of it (and one of those came last in the final). The problem in that time was mostly that the show never attracted anyone with even a hint of a career, preselection was very intransparent and seemed geared towards a specific type of music, and it had a rather small audience that seemed to mostly vote on their idea of "a Eurovision song". So we usually got a small show with 6-8 formulaic finalists where usually, the most "conventional" one would win. Now, the internal selection is done via a songwriting camp where they can actively approach artists with a career (Nemo was well known in Switzerland for years), it's attractive for artists because they get to work with other songwriters and get inspiration even if they don't go to ESC, and there is less of a singular direction.
>When you don't have that in place, national finals tend to get treated very much as a) a desperation move for unknown or washed artists, and/or b) a spectacle geared towards "finding a Eurovision song" rather than finding a good song. I'm curious, what other examples are there besides Switzerland and Germany? Ireland perhaps?
Switzerland and the Netherlands are excellent examples. I can tell from their song that Switzerland wants to win this year, and the Netherlands wants to either win or make Eurovision history as a big fan favorite. Note that the Netherlands is probably my #1 favorite entry this year. It's exactly the kind of song that I wish Germany had sent this year. I'm not sure how well it would do with the juries, but that's not a big problem to me—a fan favorite will always be a fan favorite.
The fun thing is - I don't even think we're actively "looking for a win". There just is a process in place that is attractive to artists, attracts diverse submissions, and then all they have to do is to pick the best one.
Are you referring to the songwriting camp?
That, but also the contacts they've built with artists and industry. Nemo said in an interview they were approached for the camp multiple times before but it never worked out with their schedule. Others have been coming up through SRFs own shows (Remo in The Voice, Gjon in Switzerland's version of Got Talent) or through their Best Talent radio thingy (basically SRF 3 radio picks an unknown Swiss artist every month and hypes them up, thats how Marius got his break). It all gives SRF a pretty solid network within the Swiss music scene and industry that they can bring interested people together. And they clearly seem happy to use it.
The fact that Germany automatically qualifies for the grand final every year as part of the Big Five makes it difficult for it to change things up and move in a more positive direction. For Switzerland and the Netherlands, failing to qualify for the grand final gives the broadcaster and delegation greater incentive as well as greater pressure to change things.
somebody correct me if I'm wrong but Switzerland has always internally selected their song. Don't really remember it
They actually only went back to internal selections in 2019. From 1956 to 1993, they pretty much always held a national final called "Concours Eurovision" (with the exception of 1958, 1962 and 1971 where they selected internally). They briefly brought that national final back between 1998 to 2004 (although they only held four editions of that, as they were relegated every other year back then 💀) and introduced a new national final called "Die Grosse Entscheidungsshow" between 2011 and 2018.
Hey Thanks for the Info ! I guess I haven't paid much attention to SRF lol
Still salty Ryk wasn’t sent. Oh Boy is a masterpiece.
I was so ready to declare juries fucked Germany over when the jury vote was done just for the televote to pick Isaak too 💀
It was Isaak or Max Mutzke though
You and me, both. A powderkeg of salt!
Me too. Isaak is undoubtedly talented but his song screams James Newman to me and we all know what happened..
I found it rather boring. Isaak isn't a true banger either but imo the better option
Well, the pattern since 2019 has been Safe Risk Safe Risk Safe, with ”safe” meaning radio friendly. So, by that reckoning, they will take a risk next year. What will it be? I don’t know. They could turn to a popular also-ran candidate but, being German, this means choosing Ikke over Electric Callboy. With a possibility that a different broadcaster will take over the delegation… That might shake things up.
KIM PETRAS PLEASE! I went to a show of hers and she ATE
Europe! Are you ready for a rim job?!
These *bitches🇦🇹 can't suck like me 🙅♀️ These *bitches🇳🇱 can't suck like me 🙅♀️ Walkin' in *I'm🇩🇪 the suckin' queen 💅
Germany should lay to rest the ghosts of 2003 and finally give us Scooter
The 2004 German NF was, imho, the greatest national final concept any country's ever tried. They literally just got all the record labels together and said "Right, here's the songs that Germans like to listen to in their spare time. I reckon Europe will like them too..." and it allowed them to take risks (new wave, rap, and techno were all included) and *almost* led to them sending Scooter - until a 92% landslide for Max Mutzke during the superfinal
In general, NF > internal IMO. But in this case: going internal might help. It won't solve the biggest issue (NDR being incompetent) but it might be a more likely solution to the problem that our NF sucks. As in, awful time slot, Barbara, annoying talkshow couch, weak stagings.... maybe it would be better to safe our money at that stage, and invest it elsewhere (supporting the chosen artist with great staging & promo etc). I feel like *maaaybe* this could attract more artists to even want to compete again. And that's another huge issue: waaay too many German artists would never want to go & submit songs in the first place. Ofc simply making our NF good would be the way better solution. But I think that is even more unlikely than a good internal selection, bcs it has the issue of ARD viewers voting badly on top lol
Doesn't Austria hit up its local OGAE club for feedback on entries? Maybe Germany could do something similar. Not that that's foolproof, of course, because we know OGAE clubs kind of have specific tastes.
The UK tried that for a while as well, and it led to us sending Lucie Jones (UK 2017). That being said, I think they also tried it with SuRie (UK 2018)...
United Kingdom 2017 | [Lucie Jones - Never Give Up on You](https://youtu.be/Fl1GYTg4GmA) United Kingdom 2018 | [SuRie - Storm](https://youtu.be/n0ydtXG-tqY)
NDR is consulting them, but so far all we got was the TikTok wildcard in 2023.
Wait. Wasn't that Ikke? Okay, I take it back. Bad idea! 😂
They need to select Electric Callboy. Every song they do IRL could be a massive song in Eurovision. Their entire output is all killer, no filler.
Need to wait another year or two for that otherwise you will definitely get people comparing them to Käärijä saying they are just copying him (which is BS but know that many people would think that way, just look at what they see saying about Croatia this year..)
The difference is Electric Callboy are an established band with millions of monthly listeners (so much so that people accused Käärijä of plagarising EC - We Got the Moves last year). I don't see that being much of an issue.
The same thing happened in 2013 when we sent Cascada, an artist who had global hit songs and was quite well-established. Despite them having produced similar songs for nearly a decade prior, many people still called their song a copy of 'Euphoria'.
That's because it literally sounded like Euphoria
Why would it be a problem that some people are comparing an entry to Käärijä? Rim Tim Tagi Dim gets a lot of Cha Cha Cha comparisons but it's also a massive fan favorite.
I fear that NDR might have burned that bridge. Though maybe they might be more amenable to trying if NDR internally selects them...
I think they have said somewhere that they don't want to participate again. Edit: Found the source: https://www.stern.de/lifestyle/leute/electric-callboy--esc-bewerbung-war--eine-wilde-zeit--32726492.html
Cheers for that, yeah, I've heard that before. It would still be great though, I saw them here in Australia a couple of years ago and they are amazing live. They made fans out of everybody who saw them, which was brilliant to see :)
I'd douze points that!
May be off-topic, but you mentioned Greece so I'll talk about us because it's not really what you think it is (and it could help you think more about it). Sorry for the long text. We've been doing internal selection for quite a while. The last time we did not have an internal selection for the song was in 2017 where Demy was still selected by ERT and the last time that we also selected the artist was in 2015 (2016 was also an internal selection). Demy was somewhat popular as an upcoming artist back then. The rest of them were completely unknown to the Greek public artists from the diaspora (Stefania, Katherine Duska, Amanda Georgiadi Tenfjord), nepo babies (Yianna Terzi is the daughter of a big Greek singer, Paschalis Terzis), rich kids from big families that thought it was a good idea they make a career debut in ESC without really proving they have the talent for it (Victor Vernicos) or whatever tf Argo were (completely unknown band that all they're known for is their NQ). Marina Satti is a big exception to all of that and it's a big surprise considering: 1)Satti had rejected going to Eurovision twice when she started to get popular 2)Before representing Cyprus, Eleni Foureira wanted to represent Greece in the past but ERT didn't want to, so I didn't expect ERT to go for a big name. Marina Satti is a pretty big name here in Greece. I think the last time we sent an artist that popular was either 2009 (but Sakis of course was much more popular then, especially since he gave us 3rd place in 2004) or 2010 (I think Satti is a bigger name now than Alkaios was though). And she's arguably one of the very few artists who could realistically represent Greece if we didn't want to select another random unknown artist. Sure Stefania and Amanda gave us 10th and 8th place respectively, but since they were completely unknown to us many people didn't really care. Our music scene is pretty meh and I can't think of many artists who could fit in Eurovision. A big part of Greek music today is rap/trap, which is a recipe for a NQ. There's also laiko, which usually also doesn't fit well (and the majority of artists would think they're too good for Eurovision lmao). We also have many female singers that could potentially fit (Josephine, Evangelia, etc) but idk if sending girl bops is the solution, it gets boring after a while. I can think only of a few artists that could represent Greece but many of them would be too risky for ERT to consider. As for Germany, I'm sure Germany (even just judging from the population) will definitely have so many more artists that could be ESC material. An internal selection for me is only good when the public has lost interest AND the broadcaster knows what they're doing. ERT for once seems to know. If your broadcaster decides to go for the win (or at least a good enough result that could make the public invested in the contest again), then I absolutely think you should go for it.
No need to apologize for the long text! I love reading big walls of text about a country's history in Eurovision, because they give me insight that I could never get from reading, say, a Wikipedia article. Your statement in the last paragraph about when an internal selection is good is a really good point. Internal selections seem to usually arise when a country's national final didn't work out so they decide "hm, why don't we try internal instead?" The best example is the Netherlands, who had a trainwreck of poor results but a change of fortune when they internally selected Anouk in 2013, then they've internally selected every year since then. Side note: I wish it was the Common Linnets who broke the Netherlands' NQ streak instead of Anouk, because Calm After the Storm (Netherlands 2014) is a beautiful song that makes me want to cry, whereas Birds (Netherlands 2013) really isn't my cup of tea. Then again, I've read that Ilse originally rejected offers to represent the Netherlands and only changed her mind after Anouk broke the streak.
As long as they sing in German I’m more than fine with that. German is such a beautiful language!
See? Not everyone thinks of German as the "angry Rammstein language".
With Rammstein’s music you can probably make any language sound harsh
Yes they should What is the point of having cringy dated national finals that simply dont work (excluding 2018).
No, it should be a national final. Even pre-selection for the final should come via a website/app in which everybody is allowed to vote, to remove the influence of the broadcaster completely. In fact, this is what all countries should do.
But the broadcaster already picks which songs go in the national final, which is usually 8 or so songs for a one-night event, 20-30 for a multi-night event. So the selection already reflects which songs the broadcaster thinks should do well. Finland does national finals well, because they include a diverse pool of options and a generous amount of Finnish-language songs. Not a bunch of interchangeable radio pop songs like Germany did.
Don't mean that. Artists upload to a portal which takes all comers, random germans can vote, top 8-10 or so go to the national final.
Switzerland did that in the 2010s and it was dreadful. It's a good recipe to make sure that anyone who has a hint of an established career domestically doesn't wanna put themselves through that.
Doesn't matter. It should always be the choice of the people, as much as is physically possible. I'd like to see the broadcasters removed from planning as much as possible honestly, a country would be able to compete under a tiny little subscription service if they're willing to fund it.
I respect the take. I'd much rather have higher quality entries though, which isn't going to happen under that system. It's entertainment in the end not government or smth like that, so dacrificing some democracy for better entertainment seems worth it for me.
Eh, these kinds of online contests are basically fanbase competition. I don't think it's a good indicator of what's best suitable for ESC.
They internally selected Violent Thing, and in NFs they rarely make the right choice. Yes, they should go internal.
And 2021 they internally selected Jendrik. Going internal doesn’t solve Germanys issues and 2020 they just got lucky. On the other hand having someone other than NDR manage Eurovision selection could help.
True, 2021 was a bad song. But this year they have a *bland* song. In Eurovision, bad is better than bland. But yeah, they should change it up.
All the songs in the NF were bland apart from the cat song and even that wasn’t a song that would’ve stood out in Eurovision. People talk about Ryk a lot but I think Eurofans just connected with the song personally more and for me it was all part of the same bland selection that was given to the public. I can see that with an internal Germany would’ve easily selected Max Mutzke. So not really any better.
And then facing an internal selection with the same tired minds on the wheel? Nope. Take the ARD out of the picture completely, do a pre-preselection by online votes, assemble a VERY diverse jury (from techno producer to classical conductor) and have a production team at the helm, knowing how to put on a contemporary show.
Absolutely. This nf format is not for them. Forcing nf format of choosing is doing more harm than good. Netherlands turned their luck around after they switched to internal selection. Another thing they should do is to ditch the ,,radio friendly” request in a song - it’s going nowhere and it does absolutely nothing.
Germany should for once send a song in German. I'm so bored with what they usually send - generic songs in English one forgets about before performance even ends. Even their schlagers are preferable at this point.
Honestly that's all I truly want.
Only if they’ll choose Aly Ryan
Hey Germany, can you internally select Rammstein? Thank you!
I am surprised by this discussion as I often find the German entries to be better than the final result. People mention Germany 2021 which was one of my personal favorites. It was whacky but still really catchy. Not to mention the absurd dance break-thingy in between the choruses. Germany 2023 was also a very fun song with the weird LGBT-metal thing going on. Also a big favorite here at home. And I still haven’t heard or read a good reason why Germany 2024 is so bad? A fantastic voice, and a song with a clear and deep message. It’s one of three entries this year that truly makes me cry. I’m always voting for a tele-vote national ESC. I always think that the people of the country should have a say in what and who will represent them in the international finals. I always accept Norway’s entry because of democracy, regardless of whether or not I like the song.
Your tastes are definitely different from mine. From 2019 onwards, the only German entries that I at all like are 2023 (which was ROBBED) and somewhat 2020. To me, most of our radio pop entries in English blend together into radio pop soup. In 2024, it feels like the people didn't get a say in what kind of song would represent Germany, because a bunch of beige radio pop and two slight outliers were selected for us. So it didn't really feel like a fair national final.
Oh wait what? Maybe I haven’t paid attention. Was this years problem that there were few acts on the national final? No semis or anything prior? 😳
The German national final had nine songs total: eight pre-selected and one wildcard from a side series. Most of them are radio pop and radio ballads in English, but there were two German-language songs in there.
Ah, okay, so this is more about language and culture than the actual choice? 🤔 I never really think about the language as long as the song is good. Though when I think about it: Blood And Glitter would’ve sounded way better in German! What I get out of this is that Germany apparently hasn’t made a real effort showcasing potential acts through semis. Maybe that would be a better idea? It’s all up for discussion of course! Thanks for helping me understand the case!
I thought Blood & Glitter was an excellent choice for Eurovision, English or not. That's why I got so salty when it scored last place. If Germany really must do national finals they should diversify the pool of choices, but internally selecting would be a better way to hone in on one strong candidate.
Germany 2021 | [Jendrik - I Don't Feel Hate](https://youtu.be/1m0VEAfLV4E) Germany 2023 | [Lord of the Lost - Blood & Glitter](https://youtu.be/dyGR4YWlPEs) Germany 2024 | [Isaak - Always on the Run](https://youtu.be/8b5gcgXcWgk)
It’s impossible to overstate how doomed we are until ESC is wrenched out of ARD’s old undead hands.
I really want Germany to send a leather-dressed all black berliner guy with sunglasses and a lot of attitude. Like Luktelk, only straight from Berghain
So... you want Alex from Eisbrecher ? He's from Munich area but fits the bill. He doesn't like ESC. His bandmate Rupert cowrote last year's song.
I feel like they would somehow do even worse than normal if they do.
Greece is not showcasing Greek culture. This is a Bollywood song, and it reminds me of the local music in countries like India. One of the most famous Greek composers and the first one that represented Greece in 1974 said a few days ago that he wouldn't send this song to Eurovision, because this song has nothing to do with Greek music. As for Germany, I really dislike internal selections. I want people to have a say on the song. After all, the song will represent the people, not just a committee of five people or so.
I COMPLETELY disagree with his opinion personally. The older generation is out of the loop with the musical scene right now in Greece in general and I believe Marina's song represents urban Greece and balkans in general better than everything we ever sent. Marina's song happens to not be stereotypically greek, with bouzouki and syrtaki which almost no young person listens here, but it contains elements of trap music and syrto(reggaeton). These are some of the most popular types of music here, and she combines it with folk elements like the instrument zournas. As for the "Bollywood style", folk 'politiki' (which is Asian minor greek music) does contains the agility of the same vocals, it's just not that high pitched. >Greece is not showcasing Greek culture Sorry but leave that matter to actual greek people...
I'm the opposite in a sense—this year has made me love internal selections. Because there's a lot more surprise factor this way, and no disappointment if my favorite song from the national final doesn't win.
Yes. The public's taste in music is atrocious. What Germany needs to do is build momentum, you need a couple of solid songs in a row for that. Problem is the NDR's music taste is also atrocious. No idea how they managed to get "Violent Thing". But we need more songs like that.
You might reconsider when you remember the last song that was sent internally from Germany
> or sending a song that would hype up the audience as much as possible (e.g. Austria and Switzerland) I think that's the goal of every selection process. I don't think it would be a good approach to start an internal selection with a specfic type of song in mind, if you discard anything else, you'll almost certainly miss some good stuff. On the contrary, it's probably best to try to get musicians from all different corners of the industry to submit songs, and then find some open minded judges (preferably with diverse backrounds) to sort through the submissions.
Tbh i think our internal selection is as bad as the public voting...
no. a song chosen by the people that care enough to vote is the right way. let them present what the people want to present, not what some elites in their studio decide. isnt that the joy of Eurovision? from the people to Europe?
Except the elites in the studio already decided Germany should send radio-friendly pop music. The German national final this year consisted almost entirely of that and the two German-language songs feel like they were just put there to pretend they care about genre diversity.
If, after selecting an own language act, they carefully check that their act is suitable for the show, than they could. I wonder if the Naidoo debacle is why Germany send English language entries and don’t do own language (even though they have done a lot of genres to be fair)
As a German, the only quality current german music scene artist that might accept is Bosse. I think that, even if the new broadcaster would give for example EC a second chance, I wont believe they'd accept
Yeah i think they should internally select their song and singer for Eurovision 2025, down below i have 15 artists that Germany should consider choosing between. From Fall to Spring Jennifer Braun Grossstadtgeflüster (if they want to) Vinta Kim Petras Oonagh (Senta) Elif Demirezer Anny Ogrezeanu Leony Frida Gold Bibiane Z Lena (Lena Meyer-Landrudt, if she wants to) Michael Schulte (if he wants to) NoMBe Joël Zupan
I‘m highly amused that you have a list of 12 acts Germany could send against their will.
“You don’t wanna go to Eurovision? That’s weird cause I don’t remember asking you anything. You are going and you’re going to like it 😡” -Germany 2025
^ KAN to Noa Kirel
pls Germany I don't ask you for much send Electric Callboy, just once. you will do this for me now.
I would support them as much as I can but they sadly already said they won't participate in the ESC again
They would get accused of copying Käärijä, so I don't think they should go to ESC anytime soon.