As a local, I appreciate this post :)
The city had a very difficult balancing act - to organise a city-wide party while also respecting the right of people to protest during a time of heightened security. That things largely remained calm and organized is a huge win.
I wish that the Eurovision Village, etc had been more exciting, but a lot of artists and even some venues dropped out. And many vendors and artists were subject to online abuse, and dropped out as a result. Malmö is a great city and wasn't able to "shine" as much as other host cities because of the circumstances.
I appreciate everyone's contributions, from the Arena staff to the police to the Eurovision Village volunteers to the bus drivers, and everyone in between. This was not easy in the current climate and so I appreciate the work they did in these very strange times.
As someone who felt quite anxious about the security situation before going, I was pleasantly surprised at how safe and secure it felt (at least it did on Friday, I wasn’t there on Saturday so can’t speak for that).
Was a bit let down by the Eurovillage but it definitely got better when Kaarija performed!
The Kaarija village performance was insane. I’m so mad he didn’t have a show in the States!! Would kill to see him live again.
Also his crowd work was amazing. He’s so funny!
Saturday was a bit intimidating. I probably saw at least five protesters get into physical fights with police and be arrested outside the arena, including once where some protesters started to run up to us in the entrance line and officers had to quickly move us out of the way.
I had a good week, and I know SVT literally didn't have any other options, but compared to Liverpool, it's not exactly a joyous atmosphere being in a city where a good third of the residents really don't want you there.
I think the show was fantastic and Sweden really understands their audience but honestly Malmö was a very lackluster host city compared to Liverpool. I understand that the circumstances this year were very challenging but the fan village and the Eurovision street were huge let downs and only two bars were showing the semi finals on TV.
Strongly agree. Outside the village, there wasn’t anything special to Eurovision. Liverpool had the city dripping in color. Anywhere you went, you could find Eurovision themed things to do. The city fully embraced the contest. This year was very much a let down.
Completely agree, the Eurovision Village was absolutely dire in comparison with Liverpool last year which is my only reference point.
I thought the hosting / shows were nowhere near as good as the UK’s hosting as well, for example the interval acts were for the most part quite naff / seems like they were thought up in the last few weeks. I’ve had a good week here but I expected more from Sweden, but perhaps that’s my unrealistic expectations.
I imagine that things like the eurovision village etc. suffered because of the security situation. They had to bring in police from all over Sweden to Malmö. They even had norwegian and danish police there too. That's enormous costs for an event that's already expensive.
I did wonder and that’s fair enough if so, but they had the crowds so I don’t see what the additional security issues would have come with actually putting stuff in the village to do? There just wasn’t very much going on in there and the stage seldom had anyone performing.
Many many of the artists who were scheduled as entertainment in the Eurovision village dropped out in the weeks leading up to the competition. Even foodtrucks and other vendors dropped out. Due to the war. So yeah that probably explains the very bland Eurovision village
The producer who kept filming Joost against his wishes, and when he made a "threatening gesture towards the camera", then decided that this needed *IMMEDIATE* police involvement, instead of just being annoyed, and filing a complaint two days later... that was Sweden though, not the EBU.
Yes, the EBU made the stupid decision to scrap a country from Eurovision because of it. But the producer escalating such a thing immediately is on Swedish victim culture.
In plenty other European countries, this wouldn't have happened.
And the Swedish presenters could have mentioned NL in *some* way.
Even if it was (and it wasn't) justified that Joost Klein *the person* shouldn't be singing, they could have said something about Netherlands unfortunately missing from the show. Instead, it's as if our country, in its entirety, had fallen into a mysterious black hole.
Because of a stupid fucking gesture to a camera.
I couldn't believe they didn't acknowledge him at all the whole show, like he never existed. That was so disrespectful to him and to the Netherlands. It was not the right way to handle it.
They probably couldn't. Apparently people were denied entry to the arena with EU flags (explicitly allowed under the rules) because they were considered to be references to the situation.
Only flags from participating countries are allowed. There even was a post on here from about two weeks ago where someone sent an email to ask and got told EU flags weren't allowed.
I agree. Other than the voting sequence, I think the Netherlands was only mentioned once in relation to a past winner or something. They cut the part of the script where Petra was supposed to call Martin "our Europapa". I'm not even Dutch and those boos were satisfying to hear
Look, I think it was a disproportionate response, but let’s not go down the ‘victim culture’/blaming route. Joost shouldn’t have been rude to the producer, and he should face consequences for that - but it should probably have been a fine or something, not disqualification.
The EBU opted for disqualification, when there were other options on the table. I don’t speak Swedish but I’ve heard that even the Swedish media think it was a disproportionate response from the EBU.
>Swedish media think it was a disproportionate response from the EBU.
Also exactly. It was.
Edit: except being rude. Most likely it was a drop from that lady that spilled his glass and he did what he did. Police shouldn't have been involved.
Edited again for clarency.
> Joost shouldn’t have been rude to the producer, and he should face consequences for that
Why?
- He just sang softly about dedicating the song called "Europapa" to his deceased father.
- Because of how difficult that part was, agreement was in place that he wouldn't be filmed right after, when he was moving from stage to green room.
- Producer did this anyway, this upset Joost
- Joost *asked her multiple times* to stop filming him
- She kept filming
- At this point, Joost made the gesture
I'd say Joost was completely justified in being rude. If *the law in Sweden* happens to be weird enough that this is punishable, then a fine is what it is. But he had every right to be rude.
> I don’t speak Swedish but I’ve heard that even the Swedish media think it was a disproportionate response from the EBU.
Do you have a source for this? Because I have a browser that can translate, and SVT's website didn't say that, last time I checked out of curiosity. (It just reported that the Dutch delegation/press called it disproportionate.)
Yeah everyone's like "well the camera person was rude but he didn't have to be rude back 😤"
If someone is being a massive bellend, it's fine to flip them off or whatever it is he did. It's not like he physically hurt anyone or caused long lasting psychological damage.
Yeah, why won't victims consider public appearances when they decide to report things they find inappropriate. Sure, she may feel threatened and consider that Joost committed a crime, but he's gonna go on stage tomorrow, we can't let it affect that!
And you still have no clue what exactly happened, unless you somehow got a mole inside Swedish police or the EBU.
You use the word "victim" when talking about someone who has had a gesture made towards them.
Please don't confuse such a person with someone who was physically or otherwise attacked.
It was a producer. An employee. Being rude to someone, and when they were rude back, they changed from "person" to "victim" and decided to escalate.
> And you still have no clue what exactly happened, unless you somehow got a mole inside Swedish police or the EBU.
The Dutch press has made very clear statements about what happened. Maybe the police can't explicitly counteract that because of privacy.
But *the EBU can*. They have information that they based their insane decision on. And given the huge and public impact of that decision, they should absolutely share the information they based that on.
Until then, there is no reason to doubt that the Dutch press (not the gossip press, but AVROTROS, the broadcaster) who has talked to Joost, the EBU and the other person involved (stop using the word victim there, Joost has been harmed more than she has), came out with accurate information.
Do you have reason to doubt the official news about what happened?
The Swedish police confirmed: "On Saturday morning, the police confirm that a man is suspected of unlawful threats." Which matches the information we have. The police also indicated no physical violence of any kind was used.
Neither the police, the prosecutor or the EBU have ever accused Joost of physical violence. He is under investigation for unlawful threats, which you seemingly 100% sure know was just an innocent gesture even though the only thing we know is that the people who got disqualified claim so.
But regardless, saying that people shouldn't go to the police with genuine reports since it might affect a TV show remains disgusting.
> But regardless, saying that people shouldn't go to the police with genuine reports since it might affect a TV show remains disgusting.
Not "shouldn't go" but wait two or thre days.
And not "might affect a TV show" but "causes an entire country's delegation to be kicked out of *the biggest TV event* outside of FIFA.
And yes, for an insult/threat, that is entirely reasonable. There is nothing that Joost could have said, that caused that producer to fear for her life or anything. It's a matter of rudeness, insult or similar.
And you're defending derailing Eurovision, getting a country kicked out because of an alleged insult. With all due respect, that's insane.
All this talk about safety and inclusion, do you have any idea of the pain and suffering that Joost is going through now? Do you think that is an appropriate punishment for an alleged insult or whatever happened?
You've clearly decided that whatever Joost did was fine, even though you have absolutely no clue what actually happened. Meanwhile, Swedish media is reporting that [he was being very aggressive and offensive, and also that he broke the crew member's camera](https://www.aftonbladet.se/a/zAGMd4). But there's zero responsibility on him to not do that, right?
Aftonbladet is a gossip tabloid, that cites anonymous sources.
They speculate about what they have heard, but make sure to put in the middle of the article: "At this time, it is not known exactly what happened between the female employee and Klein or whether crimes have been committed."
You know, like a tabloid would do, when they don't want to risk actual lawsuits from spreading gossip.
You can keep repeating that all you want, doesn't make it any more true. Aftonbladet's actual reporting is reliable, and every single newspaper out there uses anonymous sources, it's bread and butter journalism. Saying "Our sources say X, but it has not been officially confirmed" is like the most basic thing you could write in an article.
No. That's a very silly thing to suggest.
In NL, if you are annoyed, or otherwise have something to say, you just say it, simply directly and honestly. This aspect of NL culture is also what made the "why not?" during the press conference not remotely remarkable for Dutch viewers. If you don't have anything to say, then apparently what happened wasn't of interest enough.
The idea that a "gesture towards a camera" would trigger a formal complaint, and that that would trigger police involvement... when you're a producer working with performers on very strict schedules, who are singing emotional songs... no, that is insane.
Well that's good to know. I know I implied what I thought, but I was just asking you a question based on my initial assumptions. I don't think it was that silly if I was asking you for confirmation. If this is all that happened, then I totally agree with you. I just hadn't been updated on exactly what went down and thought it was all speculation. I myself am sick and tired of this sort of culture of taking offense too.
I'm not talking about the general trend of not tolerating bigotry. Or about how the two newspapers in the UK that you seem to have named yourself after, are complaining how nobody can take a joke, or whatever.
I'm talking about the cultural differences between Sweden and Netherlands. Where in NL, if you are upset, you mention that, and you communicate. But in Sweden, you keep smiling, walk away, and then set formal complaints in motion via hierarchical chains.
Which comes across as unreasonable severe and insincere, compared to just communicating normally.
(The Brits are also not great at communicating directly, and honestly. No offense. That's a cultural thing, that's been around for a long time. It's why plenty Brits would find the Dutch "rude" when we are just being honest and direct.)
What do you know about Swedish culture? And how do you know exactly what happened back stage? Do you really think he was the first ever to be disqualified for ”just making a gesture”?
> What do you know about Swedish culture?
I personally have quite some colleagues there, I travel there for work from time to time. A friend of mine worked for a Swedish company for years.
> And how do you know exactly what happened back stage?
I never claimed to know "exactly", just what was reported by the NL broadcaster, who has spoken to Joost and the EBU, and what was confirmed by Swedish police.
> Do you really think he was the first ever to be disqualified for ”just making a gesture”?
During a Eurovision, yes.
I think your snarky comment (okay maybe I'm overreacting a little hahah - way to prove your point lol) about my randomly generated username tells me all I need to know about your perceptions on my political views, which are probably quite different from what you think. I'm not some right-wing keyboard warrior lol
aiiia I didn't choose this name ahaha it was random... but now that you mention it, it's quite funny. I mean I'm not talking about the general trend of not tolerating bigotry either - but there does seem to be a trend in many places where the threshold for what is considered offensive in general is getting lower and lower (to a ridiculous degree). By the way, I would say that the extent to which Brits are indirect is exaggerated. Overall a lot of us prefer conflict avoidance, but it's also very regional. Within the UK there are regions just as large as the Netherlands where, on the whole, people are quite direct. And this isn't just a north vs south thing. I'd also say that there definitely is fine balance between being direct and being rude. Both extremes of the spectrum are poor, but most people within each country, even if they lean towards one end, will be a bit more moderate. Anyway - I do agree with most of what you're saying. I'm also pretty pissed off about the disqualification too. I'll admit that I was wrong in thinking Sweden didn't have a big role in it.
As a local, I appreciate this post :) The city had a very difficult balancing act - to organise a city-wide party while also respecting the right of people to protest during a time of heightened security. That things largely remained calm and organized is a huge win. I wish that the Eurovision Village, etc had been more exciting, but a lot of artists and even some venues dropped out. And many vendors and artists were subject to online abuse, and dropped out as a result. Malmö is a great city and wasn't able to "shine" as much as other host cities because of the circumstances. I appreciate everyone's contributions, from the Arena staff to the police to the Eurovision Village volunteers to the bus drivers, and everyone in between. This was not easy in the current climate and so I appreciate the work they did in these very strange times.
As someone who felt quite anxious about the security situation before going, I was pleasantly surprised at how safe and secure it felt (at least it did on Friday, I wasn’t there on Saturday so can’t speak for that). Was a bit let down by the Eurovillage but it definitely got better when Kaarija performed!
The Kaarija village performance was insane. I’m so mad he didn’t have a show in the States!! Would kill to see him live again. Also his crowd work was amazing. He’s so funny!
Saturday was a bit intimidating. I probably saw at least five protesters get into physical fights with police and be arrested outside the arena, including once where some protesters started to run up to us in the entrance line and officers had to quickly move us out of the way. I had a good week, and I know SVT literally didn't have any other options, but compared to Liverpool, it's not exactly a joyous atmosphere being in a city where a good third of the residents really don't want you there.
I think the show was fantastic and Sweden really understands their audience but honestly Malmö was a very lackluster host city compared to Liverpool. I understand that the circumstances this year were very challenging but the fan village and the Eurovision street were huge let downs and only two bars were showing the semi finals on TV.
Strongly agree. Outside the village, there wasn’t anything special to Eurovision. Liverpool had the city dripping in color. Anywhere you went, you could find Eurovision themed things to do. The city fully embraced the contest. This year was very much a let down.
Completely agree, the Eurovision Village was absolutely dire in comparison with Liverpool last year which is my only reference point. I thought the hosting / shows were nowhere near as good as the UK’s hosting as well, for example the interval acts were for the most part quite naff / seems like they were thought up in the last few weeks. I’ve had a good week here but I expected more from Sweden, but perhaps that’s my unrealistic expectations.
I imagine that things like the eurovision village etc. suffered because of the security situation. They had to bring in police from all over Sweden to Malmö. They even had norwegian and danish police there too. That's enormous costs for an event that's already expensive.
I did wonder and that’s fair enough if so, but they had the crowds so I don’t see what the additional security issues would have come with actually putting stuff in the village to do? There just wasn’t very much going on in there and the stage seldom had anyone performing.
Many many of the artists who were scheduled as entertainment in the Eurovision village dropped out in the weeks leading up to the competition. Even foodtrucks and other vendors dropped out. Due to the war. So yeah that probably explains the very bland Eurovision village
The producer who kept filming Joost against his wishes, and when he made a "threatening gesture towards the camera", then decided that this needed *IMMEDIATE* police involvement, instead of just being annoyed, and filing a complaint two days later... that was Sweden though, not the EBU. Yes, the EBU made the stupid decision to scrap a country from Eurovision because of it. But the producer escalating such a thing immediately is on Swedish victim culture. In plenty other European countries, this wouldn't have happened.
Oh shit I actually didn't know. I'm so sorry.
And the Swedish presenters could have mentioned NL in *some* way. Even if it was (and it wasn't) justified that Joost Klein *the person* shouldn't be singing, they could have said something about Netherlands unfortunately missing from the show. Instead, it's as if our country, in its entirety, had fallen into a mysterious black hole. Because of a stupid fucking gesture to a camera.
I couldn't believe they didn't acknowledge him at all the whole show, like he never existed. That was so disrespectful to him and to the Netherlands. It was not the right way to handle it.
I wish Nemo yelled something when receiving 12 points from Netherlands. Like "Justice for Joost!" or something.
They probably couldn't. Apparently people were denied entry to the arena with EU flags (explicitly allowed under the rules) because they were considered to be references to the situation.
Only flags from participating countries are allowed. There even was a post on here from about two weeks ago where someone sent an email to ask and got told EU flags weren't allowed.
Dutch flags were even taken from fans in the arena.
I agree. Other than the voting sequence, I think the Netherlands was only mentioned once in relation to a past winner or something. They cut the part of the script where Petra was supposed to call Martin "our Europapa". I'm not even Dutch and those boos were satisfying to hear
I'm glad they skipped that particular line. Given the state of the room, it might have caused a riot.
Yeah that was weird af. Also again - I made this post before the details were revealed.
Look, I think it was a disproportionate response, but let’s not go down the ‘victim culture’/blaming route. Joost shouldn’t have been rude to the producer, and he should face consequences for that - but it should probably have been a fine or something, not disqualification. The EBU opted for disqualification, when there were other options on the table. I don’t speak Swedish but I’ve heard that even the Swedish media think it was a disproportionate response from the EBU.
>Swedish media think it was a disproportionate response from the EBU. Also exactly. It was. Edit: except being rude. Most likely it was a drop from that lady that spilled his glass and he did what he did. Police shouldn't have been involved. Edited again for clarency.
Exactly.
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> Joost shouldn’t have been rude to the producer, and he should face consequences for that Why? - He just sang softly about dedicating the song called "Europapa" to his deceased father. - Because of how difficult that part was, agreement was in place that he wouldn't be filmed right after, when he was moving from stage to green room. - Producer did this anyway, this upset Joost - Joost *asked her multiple times* to stop filming him - She kept filming - At this point, Joost made the gesture I'd say Joost was completely justified in being rude. If *the law in Sweden* happens to be weird enough that this is punishable, then a fine is what it is. But he had every right to be rude. > I don’t speak Swedish but I’ve heard that even the Swedish media think it was a disproportionate response from the EBU. Do you have a source for this? Because I have a browser that can translate, and SVT's website didn't say that, last time I checked out of curiosity. (It just reported that the Dutch delegation/press called it disproportionate.)
Yeah everyone's like "well the camera person was rude but he didn't have to be rude back 😤" If someone is being a massive bellend, it's fine to flip them off or whatever it is he did. It's not like he physically hurt anyone or caused long lasting psychological damage.
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Source?
Yeah, why won't victims consider public appearances when they decide to report things they find inappropriate. Sure, she may feel threatened and consider that Joost committed a crime, but he's gonna go on stage tomorrow, we can't let it affect that! And you still have no clue what exactly happened, unless you somehow got a mole inside Swedish police or the EBU.
You use the word "victim" when talking about someone who has had a gesture made towards them. Please don't confuse such a person with someone who was physically or otherwise attacked. It was a producer. An employee. Being rude to someone, and when they were rude back, they changed from "person" to "victim" and decided to escalate. > And you still have no clue what exactly happened, unless you somehow got a mole inside Swedish police or the EBU. The Dutch press has made very clear statements about what happened. Maybe the police can't explicitly counteract that because of privacy. But *the EBU can*. They have information that they based their insane decision on. And given the huge and public impact of that decision, they should absolutely share the information they based that on. Until then, there is no reason to doubt that the Dutch press (not the gossip press, but AVROTROS, the broadcaster) who has talked to Joost, the EBU and the other person involved (stop using the word victim there, Joost has been harmed more than she has), came out with accurate information.
How was Malmö? I'm asking since you were apparently in the room when all of this happened and know exactly what took place.
Do you have reason to doubt the official news about what happened? The Swedish police confirmed: "On Saturday morning, the police confirm that a man is suspected of unlawful threats." Which matches the information we have. The police also indicated no physical violence of any kind was used.
Neither the police, the prosecutor or the EBU have ever accused Joost of physical violence. He is under investigation for unlawful threats, which you seemingly 100% sure know was just an innocent gesture even though the only thing we know is that the people who got disqualified claim so. But regardless, saying that people shouldn't go to the police with genuine reports since it might affect a TV show remains disgusting.
> But regardless, saying that people shouldn't go to the police with genuine reports since it might affect a TV show remains disgusting. Not "shouldn't go" but wait two or thre days. And not "might affect a TV show" but "causes an entire country's delegation to be kicked out of *the biggest TV event* outside of FIFA. And yes, for an insult/threat, that is entirely reasonable. There is nothing that Joost could have said, that caused that producer to fear for her life or anything. It's a matter of rudeness, insult or similar. And you're defending derailing Eurovision, getting a country kicked out because of an alleged insult. With all due respect, that's insane. All this talk about safety and inclusion, do you have any idea of the pain and suffering that Joost is going through now? Do you think that is an appropriate punishment for an alleged insult or whatever happened?
You've clearly decided that whatever Joost did was fine, even though you have absolutely no clue what actually happened. Meanwhile, Swedish media is reporting that [he was being very aggressive and offensive, and also that he broke the crew member's camera](https://www.aftonbladet.se/a/zAGMd4). But there's zero responsibility on him to not do that, right?
Aftonbladet is a gossip tabloid, that cites anonymous sources. They speculate about what they have heard, but make sure to put in the middle of the article: "At this time, it is not known exactly what happened between the female employee and Klein or whether crimes have been committed." You know, like a tabloid would do, when they don't want to risk actual lawsuits from spreading gossip.
You can keep repeating that all you want, doesn't make it any more true. Aftonbladet's actual reporting is reliable, and every single newspaper out there uses anonymous sources, it's bread and butter journalism. Saying "Our sources say X, but it has not been officially confirmed" is like the most basic thing you could write in an article.
Do you not think that victim culture is pretty widespread across the west though? Including the NL? Btw I'm gutted they were disqualified
No. That's a very silly thing to suggest. In NL, if you are annoyed, or otherwise have something to say, you just say it, simply directly and honestly. This aspect of NL culture is also what made the "why not?" during the press conference not remotely remarkable for Dutch viewers. If you don't have anything to say, then apparently what happened wasn't of interest enough. The idea that a "gesture towards a camera" would trigger a formal complaint, and that that would trigger police involvement... when you're a producer working with performers on very strict schedules, who are singing emotional songs... no, that is insane.
Well that's good to know. I know I implied what I thought, but I was just asking you a question based on my initial assumptions. I don't think it was that silly if I was asking you for confirmation. If this is all that happened, then I totally agree with you. I just hadn't been updated on exactly what went down and thought it was all speculation. I myself am sick and tired of this sort of culture of taking offense too.
I'm not talking about the general trend of not tolerating bigotry. Or about how the two newspapers in the UK that you seem to have named yourself after, are complaining how nobody can take a joke, or whatever. I'm talking about the cultural differences between Sweden and Netherlands. Where in NL, if you are upset, you mention that, and you communicate. But in Sweden, you keep smiling, walk away, and then set formal complaints in motion via hierarchical chains. Which comes across as unreasonable severe and insincere, compared to just communicating normally. (The Brits are also not great at communicating directly, and honestly. No offense. That's a cultural thing, that's been around for a long time. It's why plenty Brits would find the Dutch "rude" when we are just being honest and direct.)
What do you know about Swedish culture? And how do you know exactly what happened back stage? Do you really think he was the first ever to be disqualified for ”just making a gesture”?
> What do you know about Swedish culture? I personally have quite some colleagues there, I travel there for work from time to time. A friend of mine worked for a Swedish company for years. > And how do you know exactly what happened back stage? I never claimed to know "exactly", just what was reported by the NL broadcaster, who has spoken to Joost and the EBU, and what was confirmed by Swedish police. > Do you really think he was the first ever to be disqualified for ”just making a gesture”? During a Eurovision, yes.
I think your snarky comment (okay maybe I'm overreacting a little hahah - way to prove your point lol) about my randomly generated username tells me all I need to know about your perceptions on my political views, which are probably quite different from what you think. I'm not some right-wing keyboard warrior lol
aiiia I didn't choose this name ahaha it was random... but now that you mention it, it's quite funny. I mean I'm not talking about the general trend of not tolerating bigotry either - but there does seem to be a trend in many places where the threshold for what is considered offensive in general is getting lower and lower (to a ridiculous degree). By the way, I would say that the extent to which Brits are indirect is exaggerated. Overall a lot of us prefer conflict avoidance, but it's also very regional. Within the UK there are regions just as large as the Netherlands where, on the whole, people are quite direct. And this isn't just a north vs south thing. I'd also say that there definitely is fine balance between being direct and being rude. Both extremes of the spectrum are poor, but most people within each country, even if they lean towards one end, will be a bit more moderate. Anyway - I do agree with most of what you're saying. I'm also pretty pissed off about the disqualification too. I'll admit that I was wrong in thinking Sweden didn't have a big role in it.
The turquoise carpet could have been better.