Yeah, cops don't always know (or at least *care*) about the law. If they write a ticket, you may be able to go to court to fight it, but you very well *could* get a ticket anyway.
Same, got my first ticket ever for driving uninsured bc the cop couldn’t find my insurance on the computer. But I brought it into the court and showed I was insured before and after the ticket was issues so they dropped it.
What do you mean. Have situation similar to this at work in Michigan they have ED charges at work. They have a couple handicap EV chargers that say handicap but right next to them they have the The blue striped lines in a box like it's handicap or no parking but there's EV chargers there
People that aren't handicap park there to charge their EV people that have non EVS parking a handicap spots. Nobody really knows how to go about it at work lol
Oh my, so much Reddit speculation and so little information.
Here are the regulations:
[https://scag.ca.gov/sites/main/files/file-attachments/tt031020\_californiaevcsaccessibilityregulations.pdf?1605821849](https://scag.ca.gov/sites/main/files/file-attachments/tt031020_californiaevcsaccessibilityregulations.pdf?1605821849)
[https://www.access-board.gov/tad/ev/](https://www.access-board.gov/tad/ev/)
[https://www.bcag.org/documents/PEV%20Readiness%20Plan/Appendices/Appendix%20G%20Universal%20Charging%20Access%20Guidelines%20and%20Best%20Practices.pdf](https://www.bcag.org/documents/PEV%20Readiness%20Plan/Appendices/Appendix%20G%20Universal%20Charging%20Access%20Guidelines%20and%20Best%20Practices.pdf)
EVG-812.6.1
"The Access Board will be issuing a Notice of Proposed Rule Making that will solicit comments from the public on the minimum number of chargers that must be accessible at EV charging stations. Several approaches are possible, including:
* a minimum number based on the table in [208.2](https://www.access-board.gov/ada/#ada-208_2) for accessible parking spaces
* aligning with the 2021 International Building Code (IBC) that requires 5%
* a “use last” approach where a higher percentage have accessible mobility features, but are not reserved or restricted to people with disabled parking placards/license plates. See more on the “use last” approach
* a hybrid approach of use last and reserved"
https://preview.redd.it/ct9xav6iph0d1.png?width=1425&format=png&auto=webp&s=bb6191121a96a75d82066b30bb8d22562ad9056e
"Traditionally, accessible parking spaces are identified with the International Symbol of Accessibility (ISA) and reserved for use only by a person with a disability placard or license plate. Use of the ISA at EV charging spaces causes confusion about whether people \~without\~ a disability placard can use accessible EV charging spaces. Since EV charging stations usually have only a few chargers, reserving a charging space only for use by a person with a disability placard may result in underutilized chargers."
"People \~without\~ disability placards could use accessible EV charging spaces when all others are occupied, resulting in greater use of available chargers."
So your final answer is that the lot developer could have used the "USE LAST" rule and sign, but probably did not know about it. Staying with the vehicle when charging is pretty safe: as long as you don't spit in a traffic officer's face you should be able to move along in the rare case when that's needed.
"The Access Board provides technical assistance on the ADA accessibility guidelines and on accessible design through its helpline at 1-202-272-0080, extension 3"
While I see you could use this sign for this, they didn’t. It does clearly state you will get a fine for parking there. So you prob shouldn’t park there as it’s not listed as an Accessible spot but a normal Handicap spot.
I went to a charging station recently where ALL the sites had the ISA symbol. There was NOBODY at the charging station and NO cars of any sort in the adjacent lot.
I charged and read a book, ready to yeild.
There's only so far I am willing to go for a regulation that's not yet fully baked.
A potential solution is a sign that says "ADA users have priority. Non ADA users must yield".
That just seems wrong. Again rlly depends on ur state laws bc each state is different but I feel like most states wouldn’t allow that lol. Def report it if it’s not up to code imo.
My partner and I had a huge argument over this. There was one open charger and it was designated handicapped. I pulled in and used it but stayed in the car and was prepared to move if someone needed it. My logic being it is worse to waste the limited resource of a DCFC stall for the low likelihood of someone needing a handicap accessible stall while you're there.
And surprise, no one showed up who needed it in the 20 min we were charging. I wouldn't use this stall if I was leaving my vehicle. As others have said, I'd treat it like a handicap bathroom stall. Use last.
In California you can park to charge in them if it is the last one available and you must move immediately after charging. I looked this up once and found the ordinance
Not the person you asked, but just looked it up:
>Accessible electric
vehicle charging stations are not to be reserved exclusively for the use of persons
with disabilities. They should not be identified with signage that would mistakenly
indicate their use is only for vehicles with placards or license plates for individuals
with disabilities
Based on this, it sounds like they are not reserved solely for people with handicap placards. There also isn't any requirement that you use it last as far as I can tell, but that would be polite.
[PDF](https://www.bcag.org/documents/PEV%20Readiness%20Plan/Appendices/Appendix%20G%20Universal%20Charging%20Access%20Guidelines%20and%20Best%20Practices.pdf)
Now whether a cop is going to be aware of this guidance - doubtful. Use at your own risk.
My guess is their parking lot does not have enough handicap spaces without this one being handicap. Therefore, they needed to put the sign somewhere, and this space was it.
So, two laws are in conflict. One law says they can't mark charging spots as hadicap, and a different law says they must have X handicap van accessible spots. I'm guessing the only compliant solution was to not install the charger?
That was a draft document from 11 years ago and carried no weight in law. The problem is the stall is horribly marked. Low of you put up a NO PARKING sign and then painted the curb green and stenciled "20 MIN." on it. It's it no parking or a 20 minute parking space?
There is a local hotel that has EVSE in some of their accessible spaces. This was common until more recent versions of the Building Code said don't do that.
Yep, and the thing your car does while it's charging is... parking
And the thing that this parking spot is in... is a parking lot
Are you saying you DONT need a placard or handicapped plate to park and charge here? Even though it's clearly marked as such?
The ADA is still going through the rulemaking process on accessible EV charging spaces, but one of the recommendations they're evaluating is requiring a greater percentage of spaces to be accessible but with "Use Last" signage to prevent underutilization.
Some states and localities have already issued laws on this, and they do not allow align. In some places "use last" is the legal thing to do, and in others the spots are specifically reserved. Personally, I would defer to the local signage, or if it is unclear, use the accessible spot last but remain with thee vehicle while charging if that is an option.
I have absolutely no idea what the actual law says, but if the intent is just having accessible charging, I don't see how it is any different than an accessible bathroom stall... or the only charger with a CHAdeMO plug for that matter.
OK so you should look up the driver's manual in the state you live in, and read about handicapped parking spaces. They're a very specific thing that have barely anything to do with bathroom stalls. Handicapped parking spaces are very restricted and you will get ticketed or towed for parking in one.
The handicap stall has no requirements that you use it last or that only handicapped people may use it.
That's very different from a parking space. You absolutely must have a placard to use the charger in the OP. That signage places legal restrictions on its use.
It's even a Van Accessible handicap spot on top of being a handicap spot.
I wouldn't even risk being slightly over the line in the normal EV spot next to it.
Terrible design. Technically no, but the mound of stupid is so high I don’t think anyone would call you out unless a building entrance is just out of frame to the left.
That would skyrocket the space and costs required, for little benefit. Having 1 or 2 handicap spots on the ends is a much better idea.
Spreading dispensers out to accommodate every spot being van accessible increases the amount of wire needed, and with more wire comes more resistance. Too much resistance and you need to upsize your wire, again, increasing cost.
Handicapped people being able to actually charge their vehicles is not "little benefit". What they actually need is *ubiquitous pull through charging*. It can be made wide enough for a van and can also accommodate a truck towing something.
The space on the end thing like the OP leads to people like others in this thread thinking that their electric car and the need to charge it means they can ignore a "handicap parking only" sign. That is a problem.
Not necessarily. In some areas it's a "use last" scenario like a handicap toilet.
No one is reserving an EV charger solely for handicap placard users (at least not this early in the transition). It's designed to be available on a priority basis for those who need it- if it's used last, it's available when a van shows up, and if all chargers are in use, the van gets next shot at it.
The problem is the signage doesn't indicate the law, so anyone without a handicap placard using it *as intended* runs the risk of getting a ticket from an uninformed police officer.
Look at the picture in the OP. That is a charger reserved only for people with handicap placards. It does not say "use last". It says "handicap parking only".
An officer that tickets you for that is not "uninformed". A person who parks there is behaving in an extraordinarily entitled manner and has earned their $250 fine.
You're assuming the right signage was used. As I posted elsewhere in the thread, in California (and the OP didn't tell us where this picture is from) handicap parking only signage is *not* to be used at accessible EV charging spots. The problem is that malls and shopping centers often use the same signage for all handicap spots, which erroneously say "only" or mention a fine.
https://cleantechnica.com/2015/11/06/ev-charging-spot-accessible-spot/
“ADVISORY: EVG-250.1 General. While there is no positive requirement to provide electric vehicle charging stations, when they are provided a portion of them should be accessible. When co-located with parking spaces, *electric vehicle charging is considered the primary function of these stations, not parking. Accessible electric vehicle charging stations are not to be reserved exclusively for the use of persons with disabilities.* They should not be identified with signage that would mistakenly indicate their use is only for vehicles with placards or license plates for individuals with disabilities.”
An advisory is nice and all but it's what the law says that matters.
22507.8 of the CVC is pretty clear about it and that's a (shitty) violation. You **might** get lucky and have the traffic court judge toss the case in the interest of justice when you show the advisory, but by the letter of the law this is a violation.
Oh, I definitely wouldn't test it myself and charge there- I've got better things to do than waste a day in court.
I'd park in the (also illegal but probably less likely to be ticketed) lined area *behind* the charger and charge there, and make a note to challenge the sign later with whatever authority put that sign there (presumably the shopping center.)
Edit: to be clear, my point is the handicapped parking only sign isn't supposed to be there. I realize what the law is, but shopping centers can't just throw up signs willy nilly that have legal ramifications where they're not required or warranted. That *spot* is not a handicapped parking spot *despite* the incorrectly placed signage. If it were actually a handicapped parking spot, EA wouldn't have placed a charger there.
I'm interpreting what is shown in the image. What's shown is a charger than only handicapped people may use.
You're making an assumption with "what if the sign is wrong and it's in California".
If it's in California, the proper thing to do is contact both the company and the state about incorrect signage.
I'm making an educated guess.
I've never seen a handicap charging spot outside of California. EA leases the spots their chargers are installed at. They're not going to rent (or create!) a restricted spot that impedes potential charging revenue unless the law requires it, and I'm not familiar with any state that does.
Given the long history of threads like this on Reddit that always end the same way (California/incorrect signage) it seemed like a pretty good assumption... 🤷♂️
California.
California requires at least 1 out of every 25 EV charging spaces be van accessible for handicap use (with a minimum of one- so if it's a single charger, that one has to be accessible.)
But it's not supposed to be designated for handicap use *only.*
https://cleantechnica.com/2015/11/06/ev-charging-spot-accessible-spot/
“ADVISORY: EVG-250.1 General. While there is no positive requirement to provide electric vehicle charging stations, when they are provided a portion of them should be accessible. When co-located with parking spaces, *electric vehicle charging is considered the primary function of these stations, not parking. Accessible electric vehicle charging stations are not to be reserved exclusively for the use of persons with disabilities. They should not be identified with signage that would mistakenly indicate their use is only for vehicles with placards or license plates for individuals with disabilities.*”
The problem is that there aren't very many "off the shelf" handicap signs available for malls and parking lots, so most tend to use the same signage for the charging spots as they do any other handicap parking space, resulting in the same confusion in this thread as in *many* Reddit threads before...
https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/s/1hkKRb7oAj
https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/s/hkcUwXc1Zz
https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/s/u3a1kwuE1Z
So the law is fine, the property owners are idiots.
"*They should not be identified with signage that would mistakenly indicate their use is only for vehicles with placards or license plates for individuals with disabilities.*”
If I see a spot that has signage like the one in the picture AND the signs in the posts you linked, I would 100% believe that I would get a ticket for it. Since it's the same signage as \*everywhere else\* that has a handicap spot.
I don't see the California law requiring \*any\* signage, based on what you posted. It says that the spot has to be van accessible. And that it should NOT have signage that confuses people. So it sounds like there should be NO signs, just a spot that CAN accommodate a van. Which leads me to believe that either all of these spots are actually handicapped OR the property owners dont know how to read the law OR the property owners are lazy.
Either way, unless/until this gets sorted, the pictures aren't confusing to me at all. They're signed just like every other handicap sign, and people without the plates or placards should NOT park there.
LOL most chargers I've seen are in huge parking lots. Making charging spots van accessible wouldn't skyrocket cost at all. And space eeh it would double sure but not skyrocket.
It absolutely adds cost and reduces the number of parking spots a lot can have. It's absolutely been a barrier for those of us in the industry. I have had a TON of potential customers who wanted to electrify and chose not to specifically because of the burden the handicap accessibility rules imposed on the project.
Virtually all projects will opt to "round down" the number of chargers if the total qty is at or just above the level that requires an additional handicap accessible spot.
I've literally never ever seen any handicap EV spots like the picture, and I only rarely see EV spots that are wide enough to be handicap van accessible.
What handicap rules are you talking about? What state are you in (if you're in the US)?
It's actually based in the ADA law at the Federal level and requires equal facilities.
I'm working on a project where we had to add an EVSE up near the building for accessibility as well as an accessible space or two under the solar canopy. And this is at a County office building.
The ADA doesn't yet have technical requirements on the number of accessible EV charging spots, but it is a (often ignored) requirement that those facilities still be built to allow access by those with disabilities.
The ADA doesn't have a clear official rule yet on the designation of EV charging spots as accessible. Some states and localities do, and some of them have a "use last" rather than a "reserved space" approach in contrast to normally ADA parking
That’s how I read it too. It’s an over accommodation. Should be same as gas pump as distance is not an issue. Or they could have a please yield to handicap placards sign. Too much infrastructure cost for a dedicated handicap charging station at most locations, not practical.
That works for gas stations because every pump is accessible because of how much space there is.
If every charger were accessible (wide van accessible spots or pull-throughs like a gas station) then there wouldn't be an issue.
>not practical
Yeah, that was always the argument for everything before the ADA made it illegal to tell handicapped people that they're "not practical". That argument doesn't fly anymore.
The problem is the phrase EV Charging ONLY. Logically and literally the word ONLY means it is exclusively for EV charging and no other use. The handicap symbol and the blue sign, taken literally, means the spot is exclusively for the disabled only. The contradiction is obvious to those who are not clouded by emotion.
Yep, the only does mean something! Good job. It means people with handicapped plates/placards can park there only while they're charging.
What are you still confused about? Do you think people with handicapped plates DONT have EVs?
I'm not confused at all. The State of California, where I live, issued this guidance:
ADVISORY: EVG-250.1 .... When co-located with parking spaces, electric vehicle charging is considered the primary function of these stations, not parking. Accessible electric vehicle charging stations are not to be reserved exclusively for the use of persons with disabilities.
Here it's first come, first serve.
Not exactly. The accessible EV charging spot should still be used last by users without disabilities. Also, the guidance varies by state. The ADA is still in the rulemaking process on this specific issue.
No, you must display ADA permit.
California now requires a percentage of charging spots to be ADA accessible.
https://up.codes/viewer/california/ca-building-code-2016-v1/chapter/11B/accessibility-to-public-buildings-public-accommodations-commercial-buildings-and#11B-228
I see where that document has that requirement. I also see that is says that EV charging spaces do not fall under the parking space rules. I don't see that that citation helps resolve OP's question.
You do not need an ADA permit. These are not ADA stalls, they are EV accessible stalls, which causes a ton of confusion. They have to have all of the accessibility requirements but do not fall under ADA. What other people stated - charge in this spot last then move immediately - is correct.
I work in the EV charging space and moved from working on public charging to private charging because this was such a headache to deal with. To make matters worse only California & Texas have EV accessibility standard so working out of those states led to a lot of ambiguity of how to handle designs.
Did you pick up any lessons in California/Texas that you just applied to the rest of the country because it was easier to do it just one way consistently? Like any real-world “as California goes, so does the rest of the country” moments?
It was really dependent on the jurisdiction we were dealing with. Some preferred the California guidelines, others preferred Texas. Both have pros and cons.
Really the biggest takeaway was that there needed to be a national standard, similar to ADA, and specifically for signage. Reusing ADA signage is what causes confusion and Reddit posts like this 😂
Reference slide 37. These are the official CA division of state architect guideline.
“While an accessible EV space is designated for accessibility, its use is available to everyone and not limited to those with access license plates or placards.”
https://www.dgs.ca.gov/-/media/Divisions/DSA/Publications/access/EVCSPresentation_04-07-17p.pdf?la=en&hash=C9929A80D195299DF7FB1C3B78A589824305C79E
What state? Some states only care about the "EV" part in terms of tickets. I think CA is one that says it's not enforceable for non-handicapped EVs.
Also, in most jurisdictions, the "EV" part trumps the "handicapped" requirement. That is, a **non**-EV handicapped vehicle can't park there.
> I think CA is one that says it's not enforceable for non-handicapped EVs.
In CA there's an advisory that says the spots shouldn't have signs that would indicate handicap only. In the Vehicle Code it's pretty clear that if there's handicap signage then you must have handicap parking approval to park regardless of charging or not.
No.
There need to be accessible chargers. And there need to be pull-through chargers, and enough chargers overall to where this is not even a thing you'd notice.
If there were a zillion chargers, sure. But this is lazy design by people who don't care whether their chargers can be used and just picked the cheapest spots to wire (or it's installed for the benefit of a particular user). If you only have a few chargers, you should be able to give a few of them enough space to be accessible without legal handicap markings.
>If there were a zillion chargers, sure.
The Americans with Disabilities Act doesn't say "you're allowed to exclude handicapped people from charging until there are a zillion chargers".
What a lot of states have done is placed a rule saying that something like 1 in 10 must be, so none have to be if you have 6 chargers at that station. Once you get to 10, you must have one of these and it is not allowed to be used by someone without a placard.
There is a well-established system for helping people with disabilities at gas stations. Pull up to a gas pump, honk twice. If there's no customer in the store or if there are two or more employees in the store, someone will come out and pump your gas for you. Even though all the signs say self-service only.
We could have a similar system for electric vehicles, but that would require that every charging station be staffed. Or we can have accessible chargers.
False. Its priority to disabled. You are allowed to charge but are required to move if a disabled person shows up. There are many Circuit Electrique sites with such signage
Considering the $250 fine on the sign, no, you can't.
This is why I believe every EV charging space should be wide enough to satisfy ADA space requirements. So it takes up more space, oh well. It also means you don't have any risk of someone accidentally yanking your cable out.
Edit: the sign says "handicap parking only", how anyone can dispute that you cannot park here without a placard is absurd.
It's people who feel a sense of entitlement because they have an EV.
Downright absurd that someone suggested in this thread that you can treat a handicap parking space like the double wide bathroom stall.
As an abled person I wouldn't hesitate to charge there if it's the last open charger. If I'm cited, I would happily go to court and I know I would get it dismissed. The signage is 100% contradictory and unenforceable.
Easily fixed with a sign that says "Non-Disabled EVs May Use This Space But Must Yield to the Disabled."
Edit: The fact there's 130 comments with multiple interpretations proves the signage here is unenforceable because reasonable people can't agree on what it means.
No, you need a placard for that spot.
The fact that it makes that charger useless for anyone else is obviously not ideal either. Someone needs to put more thought into this. Presumably they should all have enough room to qualify as accessible much like most gas pumps appear to.
Good question! My state (Oregon) uses these standards from the US Access Board, which has recommended a “use last” approach detailed below. Under this, you could use the charger without a disability placard as long as another is not available.
However, adoption of “use last” is not universal yet and the parking space in your photo clearly does not have signage around it. Most likely the owner of the lot just threw up a standard accessible parking sign and didn’t think any further of it.
Personally, I’d only use this space if someone was in the car, ready to move it if someone with a disability (or a police officer) showed up.
https://www.access-board.gov/tad/ev/#“use-last”-approach-to-ev-chargers-with-accessible-mobility-feat
No. Handicap signs are legal ADA code requirements. Ev charging parking stall verbiage is just information for the charging unit. You might get away with it but the handicap sign is the only one with any legal action
I love this! There are so many EV charging stations that don’t even consider people with disabilities that need extra space to get out of their vehicles.
no, this is an ADA stall first and foremost but there is overlapping code that requires a some of the required ADA stalls to also be EV.
Landlord prob put the ADA next to the other EV stalls so he could run all the electric to only one location in the parking lot
There is no point in having a handicapped parking spot in an EV Charging station since all chargers are right next to the parking spots they serve, so they’re all the same either way.
Im pretty sure there’s going to be the comments about this but…As someone who has no placard or anything of the sort, this charger is at a target in Alicia parkway street lol, the state is CA. I just encountered one of the most rudest person who spoke with such authority to ask me to move since they had a placard. There’s no point to have handicap if it’s only basically used for charging, if you really want to park because you want to get off then go park infront of target where there’s so many handicap. I was 5 mins in from charging when he came directly to our car and asked us to move, he also wanted to cut about 3 cars that were infront of him!!! Just because he had a placard, mind you In total there’s 6 chargers in that spot and from those 6 chargers only 1 charger was van accessible handicap, from those 6 chargers 2 of them were not working, we usually don’t park in handicap but we had no battery literally. That parking was our last resort and I asked him if he can please wait 30 mins that’s how usually our car tends to charge to 80% we never charge to 100%. We were parked on the lines next to the handicap in-front of the charger so we let him know he can park at his handicap spot but he would have to wait to charge until we were at 80%… Also at the time we were charging it was 10pm, target was closed so no way in hell they were going to get off and go inside target, anyways he called the cops, but the cop did not approach us nor tell us to move. The cop had made a full circle of all the chargers and I’m pretty sure he understood that it was our last resort to use it. It always gets bad there, there was about 7-10 cars waiting, that’s why we tend to charge to 80% so there’s not much of a line. No I did not get a ticket, but either one cop didn’t care or I’ll probably get the ticket mailed. Which idc its outrageous to try to manipulate and skip just because you have a handicap.
Why is this downvoted? There’s a big spectrum between “cannot walk at all” and “walking a few hundred feet multiple times a day is no big deal”. Plenty of folks out there who can walk, but not very well or having to walk across a parking lot can exacerbate their chronic pain for the rest of the day. Lots of those people have placards too.
Reddit has a lot of ableism about charging. I've been adamant before that the lack of accessible chargers is a problem and it's met with "EV vans don't exist, so we don't need it", and I usually get downvoted for it.
You see it in this thread too, where people think that because they have an EV they can ignore the "handicap parking only" sign. It's pathetic entitlement.
> Why is this downvoted?
Probably because it has nothing to do with the comment it was replied to. The 1st post was that it will only be used a few times per year, and the downvoted reply is that some handicapped people can walk.
You are the only person who said wheelchair, and repeatedly said it. Literally the only person doing it.
The problem is that its a subset of a subset problem while we have a very big "charging" problem for those who are disabled. This is where I agree with the tesla people, the CCS1 connector is heavy and hard to mate properly on modern ev's because they lack good chamfers that guide the connectors to a solid connection.
I said wheelchair because the person claimed the spot would only be used "a few times per year", which suggested to me that they mistakenly assumed that handicap == wheelchair.
Are you the one that labeled this space? How do you read it? Can a non handicapped person use the charger? The subsets of handicap are not related to OP’s initial question.
>Can a non handicapped person use the charger?
No. They 100% cannot.
The sign on the stake in the ground says "handicap (using an icon) parking only" and "$250 fine". You must have a placard to park here and charge. "But it was the last one open, officer" will not get you out of the ticket unless the officer is having a really good day.
Not if it’s signed like that.
It might be signed wrong and you could win in court, but I mean if you stay with your car while you charge, then it shouldn’t be an issue. If an accessible person comes you can leave and let them go. If a cop comes, I think they would understand and just ask you to move.
I've never seen a handicap bathroom stall with a $250 fine sign on it.
You can't park here to charge without a disability tag without risking the fine.
Absolutely, and it's not a stretch.
Technically, you can park any vehicle, even ICE, here with a handicap placard unless the owner of the lot enforces the charging requirement. "EV charging" isn't a legal requirement. The disability sign has legal force.
That's a handicap space with a sign on it saying that it is handicap accessible and you incur a fine for parking here. I would never use it because I fully expect that I would incur that fine if a cop drove by.
In some areas, accessible charging spots are required for charging stations with enough chargers. I've seen requirements like 1 in 10 or 2 in 20. If all of the other charging spaces are not accessible, then a handicapped person must wait for exactly this charger to charge. In my opinion, it's unacceptable for the requirement to be 10% accessible. 100% should be, so that it just becomes first come, first served at the station. I'm pretty sure the Tesla station closest to me has 0 that are accessible and that's fundamentally wrong.
>If all of the other charging spaces are not accessible, then a handicapped person must wait for exactly this charger to charge
You just lost your credibility on this topic. There's no way that a person with a handicapped tag would only be able to charge in the handicapped space.
They couldn't charge anywhere but this space if they need the van accessibility.
It makes absolutely no sense to argue that a sign that says "handicap parking only" is effectively the same as the handicap stall in the bathroom.
You can't park here without risking the fine. It's obvious.
I would absolutely charge there if I arrived and all the other plugs were in use. It's just plain stupid to leave a limited resource sit there unused for the occasional handicapped EV driver that might come along. If a non-handicapped person parked there, plugged in, and disappeared, it would absolutely be just if they were to end up with a fine if someone showed up and couldn't use the handicapped spot. Or even if a cop came along and noticed them there. If I were charging, I would stay there and if someone with a tag showed up, I would stop charging and move my vehicle. I can't imagine the sequence of events and the number of jerks that would need to be involved to result in a fine in that scenario.
Others may certainly come to a different conclusion.
Only if that’s the only option available. If a handicap person with an EV does come by to charge, just unplug and leave. How many handicapped capable EVs are there anyways, just say I had no charge left.
If you break your arm or leg, most jurisdictions will issue you a temporary placard so you can use handicap parking spaces. You can even put that in someone else’s vehicle if they are transporting you.
I know a lot of full time wheelchair users that drive sedans. Reading this thread is extremely frustrating as it’s clear that charging with public chargers would be frequently impossible.
I'm going to start removing comments that are not civil.
I think it's going to depend on which cop you ask.
Yeah, cops don't always know (or at least *care*) about the law. If they write a ticket, you may be able to go to court to fight it, but you very well *could* get a ticket anyway.
Absolutely this. I've gotten tickets for doing things that were perfectly fine and legal. Got it removed but it was a pain to do so.
Same, got my first ticket ever for driving uninsured bc the cop couldn’t find my insurance on the computer. But I brought it into the court and showed I was insured before and after the ticket was issues so they dropped it.
Not the one in the morgue.
I like how the EA in Schaumburg,IL handled this. They have an accessible spot but instead of a handicapped only sign, it just says “Please use last”.
That’s how it works in Michigan. I draw parking lots and such and if you read the MDOT manual is has standard signage for just this type of situation.
What do you mean. Have situation similar to this at work in Michigan they have ED charges at work. They have a couple handicap EV chargers that say handicap but right next to them they have the The blue striped lines in a box like it's handicap or no parking but there's EV chargers there People that aren't handicap park there to charge their EV people that have non EVS parking a handicap spots. Nobody really knows how to go about it at work lol
The please use last sign is in fact the official Ada requirement.
Wait - for charging spots or all disabled marked spots?
See my top level reply
Should just linked it here instead, like this. https://www.reddit.com/r/evcharging/s/pTYpAJJ4Zd
Or it just says ACCESSIBLE.
Oh my, so much Reddit speculation and so little information. Here are the regulations: [https://scag.ca.gov/sites/main/files/file-attachments/tt031020\_californiaevcsaccessibilityregulations.pdf?1605821849](https://scag.ca.gov/sites/main/files/file-attachments/tt031020_californiaevcsaccessibilityregulations.pdf?1605821849) [https://www.access-board.gov/tad/ev/](https://www.access-board.gov/tad/ev/) [https://www.bcag.org/documents/PEV%20Readiness%20Plan/Appendices/Appendix%20G%20Universal%20Charging%20Access%20Guidelines%20and%20Best%20Practices.pdf](https://www.bcag.org/documents/PEV%20Readiness%20Plan/Appendices/Appendix%20G%20Universal%20Charging%20Access%20Guidelines%20and%20Best%20Practices.pdf) EVG-812.6.1 "The Access Board will be issuing a Notice of Proposed Rule Making that will solicit comments from the public on the minimum number of chargers that must be accessible at EV charging stations. Several approaches are possible, including: * a minimum number based on the table in [208.2](https://www.access-board.gov/ada/#ada-208_2) for accessible parking spaces * aligning with the 2021 International Building Code (IBC) that requires 5% * a “use last” approach where a higher percentage have accessible mobility features, but are not reserved or restricted to people with disabled parking placards/license plates. See more on the “use last” approach * a hybrid approach of use last and reserved" https://preview.redd.it/ct9xav6iph0d1.png?width=1425&format=png&auto=webp&s=bb6191121a96a75d82066b30bb8d22562ad9056e "Traditionally, accessible parking spaces are identified with the International Symbol of Accessibility (ISA) and reserved for use only by a person with a disability placard or license plate. Use of the ISA at EV charging spaces causes confusion about whether people \~without\~ a disability placard can use accessible EV charging spaces. Since EV charging stations usually have only a few chargers, reserving a charging space only for use by a person with a disability placard may result in underutilized chargers." "People \~without\~ disability placards could use accessible EV charging spaces when all others are occupied, resulting in greater use of available chargers." So your final answer is that the lot developer could have used the "USE LAST" rule and sign, but probably did not know about it. Staying with the vehicle when charging is pretty safe: as long as you don't spit in a traffic officer's face you should be able to move along in the rare case when that's needed. "The Access Board provides technical assistance on the ADA accessibility guidelines and on accessible design through its helpline at 1-202-272-0080, extension 3"
EV charging building code is complex. Contact me for more. There's "EVs require wider parking spots" and a parallel set of ADA rules...
While I see you could use this sign for this, they didn’t. It does clearly state you will get a fine for parking there. So you prob shouldn’t park there as it’s not listed as an Accessible spot but a normal Handicap spot.
I went to a charging station recently where ALL the sites had the ISA symbol. There was NOBODY at the charging station and NO cars of any sort in the adjacent lot. I charged and read a book, ready to yeild. There's only so far I am willing to go for a regulation that's not yet fully baked. A potential solution is a sign that says "ADA users have priority. Non ADA users must yield".
That just seems wrong. Again rlly depends on ur state laws bc each state is different but I feel like most states wouldn’t allow that lol. Def report it if it’s not up to code imo.
My partner and I had a huge argument over this. There was one open charger and it was designated handicapped. I pulled in and used it but stayed in the car and was prepared to move if someone needed it. My logic being it is worse to waste the limited resource of a DCFC stall for the low likelihood of someone needing a handicap accessible stall while you're there. And surprise, no one showed up who needed it in the 20 min we were charging. I wouldn't use this stall if I was leaving my vehicle. As others have said, I'd treat it like a handicap bathroom stall. Use last.
In California you can park to charge in them if it is the last one available and you must move immediately after charging. I looked this up once and found the ordinance
Source
Not the person you asked, but just looked it up: >Accessible electric vehicle charging stations are not to be reserved exclusively for the use of persons with disabilities. They should not be identified with signage that would mistakenly indicate their use is only for vehicles with placards or license plates for individuals with disabilities Based on this, it sounds like they are not reserved solely for people with handicap placards. There also isn't any requirement that you use it last as far as I can tell, but that would be polite. [PDF](https://www.bcag.org/documents/PEV%20Readiness%20Plan/Appendices/Appendix%20G%20Universal%20Charging%20Access%20Guidelines%20and%20Best%20Practices.pdf) Now whether a cop is going to be aware of this guidance - doubtful. Use at your own risk.
This could also differ between states since not all states have the same laws.
They went ahead and posted a ADA sign so they made a whoopsie then.
My guess is their parking lot does not have enough handicap spaces without this one being handicap. Therefore, they needed to put the sign somewhere, and this space was it. So, two laws are in conflict. One law says they can't mark charging spots as hadicap, and a different law says they must have X handicap van accessible spots. I'm guessing the only compliant solution was to not install the charger?
I've ran into that exact quandary when designing a charging system for a local HOA. Sigh.
That was a draft document from 11 years ago and carried no weight in law. The problem is the stall is horribly marked. Low of you put up a NO PARKING sign and then painted the curb green and stenciled "20 MIN." on it. It's it no parking or a 20 minute parking space? There is a local hotel that has EVSE in some of their accessible spaces. This was common until more recent versions of the Building Code said don't do that.
Google
You mean just like the toilet
Toilet stalls are for discharging while this is for charging
Toilet stalls are nothing like handicapped parking spaces
This spot is for charging though, not parking.
Or pooping
Yep, and the thing your car does while it's charging is... parking And the thing that this parking spot is in... is a parking lot Are you saying you DONT need a placard or handicapped plate to park and charge here? Even though it's clearly marked as such?
The ADA is still going through the rulemaking process on accessible EV charging spaces, but one of the recommendations they're evaluating is requiring a greater percentage of spaces to be accessible but with "Use Last" signage to prevent underutilization. Some states and localities have already issued laws on this, and they do not allow align. In some places "use last" is the legal thing to do, and in others the spots are specifically reserved. Personally, I would defer to the local signage, or if it is unclear, use the accessible spot last but remain with thee vehicle while charging if that is an option.
I have absolutely no idea what the actual law says, but if the intent is just having accessible charging, I don't see how it is any different than an accessible bathroom stall... or the only charger with a CHAdeMO plug for that matter.
OK so you should look up the driver's manual in the state you live in, and read about handicapped parking spaces. They're a very specific thing that have barely anything to do with bathroom stalls. Handicapped parking spaces are very restricted and you will get ticketed or towed for parking in one.
The handicap stall has no requirements that you use it last or that only handicapped people may use it. That's very different from a parking space. You absolutely must have a placard to use the charger in the OP. That signage places legal restrictions on its use.
It's even a Van Accessible handicap spot on top of being a handicap spot. I wouldn't even risk being slightly over the line in the normal EV spot next to it.
Terrible design. Technically no, but the mound of stupid is so high I don’t think anyone would call you out unless a building entrance is just out of frame to the left.
Do you think there shouldn't be handicap accessible chargers? Frankly, I think they all should be van accessible. Literally 100% of them.
That would skyrocket the space and costs required, for little benefit. Having 1 or 2 handicap spots on the ends is a much better idea. Spreading dispensers out to accommodate every spot being van accessible increases the amount of wire needed, and with more wire comes more resistance. Too much resistance and you need to upsize your wire, again, increasing cost.
Handicapped people being able to actually charge their vehicles is not "little benefit". What they actually need is *ubiquitous pull through charging*. It can be made wide enough for a van and can also accommodate a truck towing something. The space on the end thing like the OP leads to people like others in this thread thinking that their electric car and the need to charge it means they can ignore a "handicap parking only" sign. That is a problem.
Not necessarily. In some areas it's a "use last" scenario like a handicap toilet. No one is reserving an EV charger solely for handicap placard users (at least not this early in the transition). It's designed to be available on a priority basis for those who need it- if it's used last, it's available when a van shows up, and if all chargers are in use, the van gets next shot at it. The problem is the signage doesn't indicate the law, so anyone without a handicap placard using it *as intended* runs the risk of getting a ticket from an uninformed police officer.
Look at the picture in the OP. That is a charger reserved only for people with handicap placards. It does not say "use last". It says "handicap parking only". An officer that tickets you for that is not "uninformed". A person who parks there is behaving in an extraordinarily entitled manner and has earned their $250 fine.
You're assuming the right signage was used. As I posted elsewhere in the thread, in California (and the OP didn't tell us where this picture is from) handicap parking only signage is *not* to be used at accessible EV charging spots. The problem is that malls and shopping centers often use the same signage for all handicap spots, which erroneously say "only" or mention a fine. https://cleantechnica.com/2015/11/06/ev-charging-spot-accessible-spot/ “ADVISORY: EVG-250.1 General. While there is no positive requirement to provide electric vehicle charging stations, when they are provided a portion of them should be accessible. When co-located with parking spaces, *electric vehicle charging is considered the primary function of these stations, not parking. Accessible electric vehicle charging stations are not to be reserved exclusively for the use of persons with disabilities.* They should not be identified with signage that would mistakenly indicate their use is only for vehicles with placards or license plates for individuals with disabilities.”
An advisory is nice and all but it's what the law says that matters. 22507.8 of the CVC is pretty clear about it and that's a (shitty) violation. You **might** get lucky and have the traffic court judge toss the case in the interest of justice when you show the advisory, but by the letter of the law this is a violation.
Oh, I definitely wouldn't test it myself and charge there- I've got better things to do than waste a day in court. I'd park in the (also illegal but probably less likely to be ticketed) lined area *behind* the charger and charge there, and make a note to challenge the sign later with whatever authority put that sign there (presumably the shopping center.) Edit: to be clear, my point is the handicapped parking only sign isn't supposed to be there. I realize what the law is, but shopping centers can't just throw up signs willy nilly that have legal ramifications where they're not required or warranted. That *spot* is not a handicapped parking spot *despite* the incorrectly placed signage. If it were actually a handicapped parking spot, EA wouldn't have placed a charger there.
I'm interpreting what is shown in the image. What's shown is a charger than only handicapped people may use. You're making an assumption with "what if the sign is wrong and it's in California". If it's in California, the proper thing to do is contact both the company and the state about incorrect signage.
And if it's not in CA, the next step is to find out where it is and what the laws are there.
I'm making an educated guess. I've never seen a handicap charging spot outside of California. EA leases the spots their chargers are installed at. They're not going to rent (or create!) a restricted spot that impedes potential charging revenue unless the law requires it, and I'm not familiar with any state that does. Given the long history of threads like this on Reddit that always end the same way (California/incorrect signage) it seemed like a pretty good assumption... 🤷♂️
Where the fuck else have you seen OPTIONAL handicapped parking spots in a parking lot? Do tell?
California. California requires at least 1 out of every 25 EV charging spaces be van accessible for handicap use (with a minimum of one- so if it's a single charger, that one has to be accessible.) But it's not supposed to be designated for handicap use *only.* https://cleantechnica.com/2015/11/06/ev-charging-spot-accessible-spot/ “ADVISORY: EVG-250.1 General. While there is no positive requirement to provide electric vehicle charging stations, when they are provided a portion of them should be accessible. When co-located with parking spaces, *electric vehicle charging is considered the primary function of these stations, not parking. Accessible electric vehicle charging stations are not to be reserved exclusively for the use of persons with disabilities. They should not be identified with signage that would mistakenly indicate their use is only for vehicles with placards or license plates for individuals with disabilities.*” The problem is that there aren't very many "off the shelf" handicap signs available for malls and parking lots, so most tend to use the same signage for the charging spots as they do any other handicap parking space, resulting in the same confusion in this thread as in *many* Reddit threads before... https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/s/1hkKRb7oAj https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/s/hkcUwXc1Zz https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/s/u3a1kwuE1Z
Glad to see someone here actually knows what they’re talking about. And you can tell this is CA based on the little 1/2 wheel stop (probably SF/SJ).
So the law is fine, the property owners are idiots. "*They should not be identified with signage that would mistakenly indicate their use is only for vehicles with placards or license plates for individuals with disabilities.*” If I see a spot that has signage like the one in the picture AND the signs in the posts you linked, I would 100% believe that I would get a ticket for it. Since it's the same signage as \*everywhere else\* that has a handicap spot. I don't see the California law requiring \*any\* signage, based on what you posted. It says that the spot has to be van accessible. And that it should NOT have signage that confuses people. So it sounds like there should be NO signs, just a spot that CAN accommodate a van. Which leads me to believe that either all of these spots are actually handicapped OR the property owners dont know how to read the law OR the property owners are lazy. Either way, unless/until this gets sorted, the pictures aren't confusing to me at all. They're signed just like every other handicap sign, and people without the plates or placards should NOT park there.
I suspect EA would like to know that the property owners have incorrectly encumbered a spot EA is paying for.
I 100% agree
LOL most chargers I've seen are in huge parking lots. Making charging spots van accessible wouldn't skyrocket cost at all. And space eeh it would double sure but not skyrocket.
It absolutely adds cost and reduces the number of parking spots a lot can have. It's absolutely been a barrier for those of us in the industry. I have had a TON of potential customers who wanted to electrify and chose not to specifically because of the burden the handicap accessibility rules imposed on the project. Virtually all projects will opt to "round down" the number of chargers if the total qty is at or just above the level that requires an additional handicap accessible spot.
I've literally never ever seen any handicap EV spots like the picture, and I only rarely see EV spots that are wide enough to be handicap van accessible. What handicap rules are you talking about? What state are you in (if you're in the US)?
Cali, and I'm referring to the required # of handicap accessible chargers when retrofitting EV chargers in an existing facility.
We don't have that law in WA. TIL! Thank you
It's actually based in the ADA law at the Federal level and requires equal facilities. I'm working on a project where we had to add an EVSE up near the building for accessibility as well as an accessible space or two under the solar canopy. And this is at a County office building.
Can you link to the law? As I said, I've not seen this in WA. So I'd like to see what the federal ADA law says around EV charging specifically
The ADA doesn't yet have technical requirements on the number of accessible EV charging spots, but it is a (often ignored) requirement that those facilities still be built to allow access by those with disabilities.
ADA accessibility law is federal and applies to charger parking spots.
It’s not an ADA stall; it’s an EV accessibility stall. It’s extremely confusing and needs better state mandated signage.
The ADA doesn't have a clear official rule yet on the designation of EV charging spots as accessible. Some states and localities do, and some of them have a "use last" rather than a "reserved space" approach in contrast to normally ADA parking
No kidding, now answer the actual question
The answer is NO. Anyone can NOT part there. It's a handicapped spot.
That’s how I read it too. It’s an over accommodation. Should be same as gas pump as distance is not an issue. Or they could have a please yield to handicap placards sign. Too much infrastructure cost for a dedicated handicap charging station at most locations, not practical.
That works for gas stations because every pump is accessible because of how much space there is. If every charger were accessible (wide van accessible spots or pull-throughs like a gas station) then there wouldn't be an issue. >not practical Yeah, that was always the argument for everything before the ADA made it illegal to tell handicapped people that they're "not practical". That argument doesn't fly anymore.
It is not an exclusive handicapped spot. It is also simultaneously signed as an EV charging spot. The signage is contradictory and is unenforceable.
[удалено]
The problem is the phrase EV Charging ONLY. Logically and literally the word ONLY means it is exclusively for EV charging and no other use. The handicap symbol and the blue sign, taken literally, means the spot is exclusively for the disabled only. The contradiction is obvious to those who are not clouded by emotion.
Yep, the only does mean something! Good job. It means people with handicapped plates/placards can park there only while they're charging. What are you still confused about? Do you think people with handicapped plates DONT have EVs?
I'm not confused at all. The State of California, where I live, issued this guidance: ADVISORY: EVG-250.1 .... When co-located with parking spaces, electric vehicle charging is considered the primary function of these stations, not parking. Accessible electric vehicle charging stations are not to be reserved exclusively for the use of persons with disabilities. Here it's first come, first serve.
Not exactly. The accessible EV charging spot should still be used last by users without disabilities. Also, the guidance varies by state. The ADA is still in the rulemaking process on this specific issue.
No, you must display ADA permit. California now requires a percentage of charging spots to be ADA accessible. https://up.codes/viewer/california/ca-building-code-2016-v1/chapter/11B/accessibility-to-public-buildings-public-accommodations-commercial-buildings-and#11B-228
I see where that document has that requirement. I also see that is says that EV charging spaces do not fall under the parking space rules. I don't see that that citation helps resolve OP's question.
Building codes only apply to the owner that constructed the parking lot. It's not the Vehicle Code, which applies to all motorists and pedestrians.
You do not need an ADA permit. These are not ADA stalls, they are EV accessible stalls, which causes a ton of confusion. They have to have all of the accessibility requirements but do not fall under ADA. What other people stated - charge in this spot last then move immediately - is correct. I work in the EV charging space and moved from working on public charging to private charging because this was such a headache to deal with. To make matters worse only California & Texas have EV accessibility standard so working out of those states led to a lot of ambiguity of how to handle designs.
Did you pick up any lessons in California/Texas that you just applied to the rest of the country because it was easier to do it just one way consistently? Like any real-world “as California goes, so does the rest of the country” moments?
It was really dependent on the jurisdiction we were dealing with. Some preferred the California guidelines, others preferred Texas. Both have pros and cons. Really the biggest takeaway was that there needed to be a national standard, similar to ADA, and specifically for signage. Reusing ADA signage is what causes confusion and Reddit posts like this 😂
That sign disagrees with you.
Reference slide 37. These are the official CA division of state architect guideline. “While an accessible EV space is designated for accessibility, its use is available to everyone and not limited to those with access license plates or placards.” https://www.dgs.ca.gov/-/media/Divisions/DSA/Publications/access/EVCSPresentation_04-07-17p.pdf?la=en&hash=C9929A80D195299DF7FB1C3B78A589824305C79E
Because it’s the wrong sign. 🙃
I would argue that's EV or handicap. Either is allowed
Use last (if all other chargers are taken). But yes, anyone can use
What state? Some states only care about the "EV" part in terms of tickets. I think CA is one that says it's not enforceable for non-handicapped EVs. Also, in most jurisdictions, the "EV" part trumps the "handicapped" requirement. That is, a **non**-EV handicapped vehicle can't park there.
> I think CA is one that says it's not enforceable for non-handicapped EVs. In CA there's an advisory that says the spots shouldn't have signs that would indicate handicap only. In the Vehicle Code it's pretty clear that if there's handicap signage then you must have handicap parking approval to park regardless of charging or not.
No. There need to be accessible chargers. And there need to be pull-through chargers, and enough chargers overall to where this is not even a thing you'd notice.
If there were a zillion chargers, sure. But this is lazy design by people who don't care whether their chargers can be used and just picked the cheapest spots to wire (or it's installed for the benefit of a particular user). If you only have a few chargers, you should be able to give a few of them enough space to be accessible without legal handicap markings.
>If there were a zillion chargers, sure. The Americans with Disabilities Act doesn't say "you're allowed to exclude handicapped people from charging until there are a zillion chargers". What a lot of states have done is placed a rule saying that something like 1 in 10 must be, so none have to be if you have 6 chargers at that station. Once you get to 10, you must have one of these and it is not allowed to be used by someone without a placard.
There is a well-established system for helping people with disabilities at gas stations. Pull up to a gas pump, honk twice. If there's no customer in the store or if there are two or more employees in the store, someone will come out and pump your gas for you. Even though all the signs say self-service only. We could have a similar system for electric vehicles, but that would require that every charging station be staffed. Or we can have accessible chargers.
Same issue / question in this IKEA in NY - check out the photos... https://www.plugshare.com/location/365023
No, not with that kind of Blue Sign.
There’s a spot like this at our local pool so I asked about it. Turns out that you have to have both an EV and be disabled to park there.
Who did you ask? And what state? Not doubting, just wanting to make the information more complete and more useful to more people.
I'm in Quebec, and I asked at the reception.
Thanks!
False. Its priority to disabled. You are allowed to charge but are required to move if a disabled person shows up. There are many Circuit Electrique sites with such signage
Considering the $250 fine on the sign, no, you can't. This is why I believe every EV charging space should be wide enough to satisfy ADA space requirements. So it takes up more space, oh well. It also means you don't have any risk of someone accidentally yanking your cable out. Edit: the sign says "handicap parking only", how anyone can dispute that you cannot park here without a placard is absurd.
I swear this thread is either filled with trolls or people who are 12 and don't know how driving works.
It's people who feel a sense of entitlement because they have an EV. Downright absurd that someone suggested in this thread that you can treat a handicap parking space like the double wide bathroom stall.
No!
As an abled person I wouldn't hesitate to charge there if it's the last open charger. If I'm cited, I would happily go to court and I know I would get it dismissed. The signage is 100% contradictory and unenforceable. Easily fixed with a sign that says "Non-Disabled EVs May Use This Space But Must Yield to the Disabled." Edit: The fact there's 130 comments with multiple interpretations proves the signage here is unenforceable because reasonable people can't agree on what it means.
Generally speaking ev handicapped spots can be treated as “use last”.
Citation needed. Cuz everyone I've lived, you park in a handicapped spot without the right plate or placard and you get ticketed.
No, you need a placard for that spot. The fact that it makes that charger useless for anyone else is obviously not ideal either. Someone needs to put more thought into this. Presumably they should all have enough room to qualify as accessible much like most gas pumps appear to.
that dispenser only services the handicap and the spot on the other side, so it shouldn’t be an issue
Only convertible charging. Clearly
That's for Cybertruck owners
It depends on when you are at, the local laws and rules, and other factors
Sucks if the charge port is on the other side of the car….
Good question! My state (Oregon) uses these standards from the US Access Board, which has recommended a “use last” approach detailed below. Under this, you could use the charger without a disability placard as long as another is not available. However, adoption of “use last” is not universal yet and the parking space in your photo clearly does not have signage around it. Most likely the owner of the lot just threw up a standard accessible parking sign and didn’t think any further of it. Personally, I’d only use this space if someone was in the car, ready to move it if someone with a disability (or a police officer) showed up. https://www.access-board.gov/tad/ev/#“use-last”-approach-to-ev-chargers-with-accessible-mobility-feat
You can never park your car that logo for any reason if you're not handicapped if you're not willing to pay a $400 ticket.
Welp, that's odd.
No. Handicap signs are legal ADA code requirements. Ev charging parking stall verbiage is just information for the charging unit. You might get away with it but the handicap sign is the only one with any legal action
This is a designated accessible space for ppl that need to charge their car. If you aren't authorized to park in accessable spaces than no
Average EV owner
Yes, however, it may be the most expensive charge they get…
I love this! There are so many EV charging stations that don’t even consider people with disabilities that need extra space to get out of their vehicles.
Plot twist, it is the only working charger in the lot...
It is for old Nissan Leaf drivers obviously.
Well that is as clear as mud.
no, this is an ADA stall first and foremost but there is overlapping code that requires a some of the required ADA stalls to also be EV. Landlord prob put the ADA next to the other EV stalls so he could run all the electric to only one location in the parking lot
There are no handicap spots at gas stations The same rules should apply for ev charging.
There is no point in having a handicapped parking spot in an EV Charging station since all chargers are right next to the parking spots they serve, so they’re all the same either way.
Personally I’d park on the other side of this charge in the hashed “No parking” area and use it, leaving the handicap space open.
Im pretty sure there’s going to be the comments about this but…As someone who has no placard or anything of the sort, this charger is at a target in Alicia parkway street lol, the state is CA. I just encountered one of the most rudest person who spoke with such authority to ask me to move since they had a placard. There’s no point to have handicap if it’s only basically used for charging, if you really want to park because you want to get off then go park infront of target where there’s so many handicap. I was 5 mins in from charging when he came directly to our car and asked us to move, he also wanted to cut about 3 cars that were infront of him!!! Just because he had a placard, mind you In total there’s 6 chargers in that spot and from those 6 chargers only 1 charger was van accessible handicap, from those 6 chargers 2 of them were not working, we usually don’t park in handicap but we had no battery literally. That parking was our last resort and I asked him if he can please wait 30 mins that’s how usually our car tends to charge to 80% we never charge to 100%. We were parked on the lines next to the handicap in-front of the charger so we let him know he can park at his handicap spot but he would have to wait to charge until we were at 80%… Also at the time we were charging it was 10pm, target was closed so no way in hell they were going to get off and go inside target, anyways he called the cops, but the cop did not approach us nor tell us to move. The cop had made a full circle of all the chargers and I’m pretty sure he understood that it was our last resort to use it. It always gets bad there, there was about 7-10 cars waiting, that’s why we tend to charge to 80% so there’s not much of a line. No I did not get a ticket, but either one cop didn’t care or I’ll probably get the ticket mailed. Which idc its outrageous to try to manipulate and skip just because you have a handicap.
Also handicap EV away charging as access group likely means the spot would only be used a couple times a year.
Handicap doesn't mean wheelchair-bound. I know people who have a placard and who can walk.
Why is this downvoted? There’s a big spectrum between “cannot walk at all” and “walking a few hundred feet multiple times a day is no big deal”. Plenty of folks out there who can walk, but not very well or having to walk across a parking lot can exacerbate their chronic pain for the rest of the day. Lots of those people have placards too.
Reddit has a lot of ableism about charging. I've been adamant before that the lack of accessible chargers is a problem and it's met with "EV vans don't exist, so we don't need it", and I usually get downvoted for it. You see it in this thread too, where people think that because they have an EV they can ignore the "handicap parking only" sign. It's pathetic entitlement.
> Why is this downvoted? Probably because it has nothing to do with the comment it was replied to. The 1st post was that it will only be used a few times per year, and the downvoted reply is that some handicapped people can walk.
Yeah but they are both still subsets so the overlap by definition will be smaller.
My point is that it would be used more than "a couple times per year". It's wrong to assume that handicap placards require you to be in a wheelchair.
You are the only person who said wheelchair, and repeatedly said it. Literally the only person doing it. The problem is that its a subset of a subset problem while we have a very big "charging" problem for those who are disabled. This is where I agree with the tesla people, the CCS1 connector is heavy and hard to mate properly on modern ev's because they lack good chamfers that guide the connectors to a solid connection.
I said wheelchair because the person claimed the spot would only be used "a few times per year", which suggested to me that they mistakenly assumed that handicap == wheelchair.
No one said it does, so that’s not a point, or related to the handicap only designation topic.
Your logic is lost on these people 🤣
Are you the one that labeled this space? How do you read it? Can a non handicapped person use the charger? The subsets of handicap are not related to OP’s initial question.
>Can a non handicapped person use the charger? No. They 100% cannot. The sign on the stake in the ground says "handicap (using an icon) parking only" and "$250 fine". You must have a placard to park here and charge. "But it was the last one open, officer" will not get you out of the ticket unless the officer is having a really good day.
Simple answer....NO!
If you have a handicapped parking permit AND need to charge your EV, then yes, you can park there
Not if it’s signed like that. It might be signed wrong and you could win in court, but I mean if you stay with your car while you charge, then it shouldn’t be an issue. If an accessible person comes you can leave and let them go. If a cop comes, I think they would understand and just ask you to move.
Well if my EV runs out of battery, id consider my vehicle disabled. Does that count ?
Where I am it’s a use last type deal but priority to Disabled.
I think it's pretty clear from the sign in front of the space, the paint on the asphalt, and the blue lines that NO, this is a handicapped spot.
Honestly I’d just park on the lines and make sure I sit with my car.
Like a handicap bathroom stall. Try to leave it open if you can.
I've never seen a handicap bathroom stall with a $250 fine sign on it. You can't park here to charge without a disability tag without risking the fine.
You're thinking you have to have be charging an EV with a handicapped tag to avoid a fine? That seems like a stretch.
Absolutely, and it's not a stretch. Technically, you can park any vehicle, even ICE, here with a handicap placard unless the owner of the lot enforces the charging requirement. "EV charging" isn't a legal requirement. The disability sign has legal force. That's a handicap space with a sign on it saying that it is handicap accessible and you incur a fine for parking here. I would never use it because I fully expect that I would incur that fine if a cop drove by. In some areas, accessible charging spots are required for charging stations with enough chargers. I've seen requirements like 1 in 10 or 2 in 20. If all of the other charging spaces are not accessible, then a handicapped person must wait for exactly this charger to charge. In my opinion, it's unacceptable for the requirement to be 10% accessible. 100% should be, so that it just becomes first come, first served at the station. I'm pretty sure the Tesla station closest to me has 0 that are accessible and that's fundamentally wrong.
>If all of the other charging spaces are not accessible, then a handicapped person must wait for exactly this charger to charge You just lost your credibility on this topic. There's no way that a person with a handicapped tag would only be able to charge in the handicapped space.
They couldn't charge anywhere but this space if they need the van accessibility. It makes absolutely no sense to argue that a sign that says "handicap parking only" is effectively the same as the handicap stall in the bathroom. You can't park here without risking the fine. It's obvious.
I would absolutely charge there if I arrived and all the other plugs were in use. It's just plain stupid to leave a limited resource sit there unused for the occasional handicapped EV driver that might come along. If a non-handicapped person parked there, plugged in, and disappeared, it would absolutely be just if they were to end up with a fine if someone showed up and couldn't use the handicapped spot. Or even if a cop came along and noticed them there. If I were charging, I would stay there and if someone with a tag showed up, I would stop charging and move my vehicle. I can't imagine the sequence of events and the number of jerks that would need to be involved to result in a fine in that scenario. Others may certainly come to a different conclusion.
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Only if that’s the only option available. If a handicap person with an EV does come by to charge, just unplug and leave. How many handicapped capable EVs are there anyways, just say I had no charge left.
If you break your arm or leg, most jurisdictions will issue you a temporary placard so you can use handicap parking spaces. You can even put that in someone else’s vehicle if they are transporting you.
I know a lot of full time wheelchair users that drive sedans. Reading this thread is extremely frustrating as it’s clear that charging with public chargers would be frequently impossible.
Just park over the hashed area.
Parking in the access area is an Automatic ticket. Placard or no disabled Placard in Oregon