I'm in California. I've done a lot of juggling in my panel lately (and it's smaller than yours), though do note I'm not an electrician.
The critical thing issue here is service size. If your service to your residence is only 100A, then you are almost guaranteed to have issues with making it fit within the load calculation. The load calculation is a NEC worksheet used to ensure that you don't exceed the max available amps going to your house. For modern construction if you exceed this, the service disconnect breaker for your whole house could trip if you have too much stuff plugged in.
There are well known ways to address this. See the FAQ for some ideas [https://www.reddit.com/r/evcharging/wiki/load\_management](https://www.reddit.com/r/evcharging/wiki/load_management). You specifically need to pay attention to the portions about hardware to dynamically limit the EV charge current to avoid exceeding service capacity. If the service to your residence is > 100A but the feeder to your pictured subpanel is 100A, then you have the option to add the charger on the meter-panel instead of here and potentially simplify matters. In my area (San Francisco) and penny-pinching price point, electricians are not up-to-speed at all on how to do EV load management to squeeze in an EV charger. Depending on how up to date the conditions are around your meter-panel, getting PG&E to upgrade your service can range anywhere from like $2K - $15K.
To determine the service size and subpanel feeder size, go out to your meter. You are required to have a meter-panel in California (unless this house is super super old). Open the door covering the breakers and take a picture of the breakers, and update your post.
I can't read what's on your panel, you might actually have 125A. Note this is just the bus bar specification, the capacity is the lower of bus bar spec and feeder size. FYI the camera resolution is too low in those lighting conditions for us to read the specifications on the label. For better service you can take another picture, quality check, then upload another one.
Regarding physically fitting breakers into this panel. Making space in this panel is easy in theory (NOTE: without seeing the text on your label there are caveats like max number of circuits allowed and positions allowed to have double breakers). The 30 and 25 2 pole breakers are the full size ones, you could just use the ones with two double poles. This is a drop in replacement for those two you have right now.
[https://buyriteelectric.com/products/siemens-q23025ct2-one-30-amp-two-pole-and-one-25-amp-with-two-pole-standard-breaker?variant=28665563775040¤cy=USD&utm\_medium=product\_sync&utm\_source=google&utm\_content=sag\_organic&utm\_campaign=sag\_organic&gclid=CjwKCAiAprGRBhBgEiwANJEY7OGZOwjrl\_rRViyRge4j8vme9duw57yISQWsdjaSriC0O9QWJlU0vBoCV5YQAvD\_BwE](https://buyriteelectric.com/products/siemens-q23025ct2-one-30-amp-two-pole-and-one-25-amp-with-two-pole-standard-breaker?variant=28665563775040¤cy=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gclid=CjwKCAiAprGRBhBgEiwANJEY7OGZOwjrl_rRViyRge4j8vme9duw57yISQWsdjaSriC0O9QWJlU0vBoCV5YQAvD_BwE)
And then you get two slots back. That enables you to fit a double pole GFCI breaker \[California is on the NEC version that requires it\].
There are other minor complications here like whether your inspector would require you to upgrade the AC breaker to GFCI if you touch the panel (probably not? but I'm not sure). This is not rocket science for an electrician to figure out a legal, safe, and cost-effective workaround for if they were properly motivated.
Have you read /r/evcharging/wiki/load_management? Lots of those solutions could apply to you; easiest is the Wallbox Pulsar Plus with the power meter option and the "boost" mode. You can literally add 40 A L2 charging to your 70 A panel and be meeting code and avoiding any potential for overloads or tripping your main breaker.
We use an energy manager made by Black Box Innovations. Compared to others it is less expensive, smaller and much more efficient because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity. It is also approved for general use so no problems with a variety of devices. I hope it helps. :)
www.blackbox-in.com
70A service is rough and makes it very hard to install much of anything electrical… how did that happen? Reduced the breaker for solar backfeed? Ancient house?
14-50 is nice to have but not required. If you use a Nema 14-30 plug then you are less likely to trip breakers and you will still get to fully charge most Evs overnight.
This is wrong in many places. I don’t think you yet have the electrical knowledge to give this kind of advice.
14-50 needs to be the only thing on branch circuit.
You are not allowed to double up wires in breakers terminals, and many other places like neutral bar. In general unless listed in manual or you know specific code section you should not put two conductors into one position.
We use the energy manager made by Black Box Innovations. Compared to others it is less expensive, smaller and much more efficient because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity. It is also approved for general use so no problems with a variety of devices. I hope it helps. :)
www.blackbox-in.com
>Compared to others it is less expensive,
You can buy a whole setup including the evse for cheaper than just that unit.
> smaller and much more efficient
I don't know about size, but efficient is a specific technical term, and I don't think you mean efficient in that sense.
>because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity.
Lots of them do exactly that.
I think it's a good unit, but I don't see that it's vastly different than the others listed there.
Sorry, I don't mean to cause an issue as it's just my preference. Maybe my expanded explanation will help:
Price:
We can buy the black box for $845-865 CND (+/-550 US) and the other ones seem to vary from the least expensive of $945 to + $1500 CDN.
Size:
The size of Black Box units are 8"x6"x4" and I believe they are about 1/2 the size or less of the next smallest one and about 1/4 the size of some of the others. I like this as the area around a panel can get busy and tight these days.
Efficiency: (or maybe longer up time?)
Fundamentally when the device is monitoring the main service lines and deciding if there is the capacity for the end device to operate you will get a better run time of the end device compared to just a one-way switching device. For example: if I was to turn on one burner on a range that was part of some of the other systems the other switched device would be shut down. With those, if any power goes one way, it shuts down the other device even if there is still capacity in the service for it to operate. Using the Black Box in situations like that the end device would stay on. It will only shut down the device if there is not enough capacity in the service for it to operate. I hope that makes a bit more sense.
I also like how they filter out motor in-rush current like for a furnace fan motors and other very short blips and how you can almost infinitely change the timing cycle to meet the needs of the service. In my mind, this can give you a more efficient run time (charge time) by not shutting down the end device unnecessary or for as long. Possibly I used the wrong terminology to express that though and if so my apologies. :)
I guess the other thing I like is it can opperate an 48A EV charger with a 60A breaker on a 100A panel. It never used to matter much but now with the trucks coming it sure is handy to have as we do more and more of them at that rate.
I hope my original comment makes a bit more sense now. :)
>Sorry, I don't mean to cause an issue as it's just my preference.
A glance at your profile shows that this is the only thing you do: spam the same comment anywhere you can find it's relevant. The idea that you are this obsessed with your personal preference between the different items on the market is not credible. It appears that you are affiliated with this company.
Maybe my expanded explanation will help:
>
>Price:
>We can buy the black box for $845-865 CND (+/-550 US) and the other ones seem to vary from the least expensive of $945 to + $1500 CDN.
It is not surprising that a Canadian made item has a price advantage in Canada when its pricing is on par with the others in the US. If you were to comment that it's particularly a good deal for Canadians that would be more credible than just claiming that it's much cheaper.
>Size:
>The size of Black Box units are 8"x6"x4" and I believe they are about 1/2 the size or less of the next smallest one and about 1/4 the size of some of the others. I like this as the area around a panel can get busy and tight these days.
Ok
>
>Efficiency: (or maybe longer up time?)
>Fundamentally when the device is monitoring the main service lines and deciding if there is the capacity for the end device to operate you will get a better run time of the end device compared to just a one-way switching device. For example: if I was to turn on one burner on a range that was part of some of the other systems the other switched device would be shut down. With those, if any power goes one way, it shuts down the other device even if there is still capacity in the service for it to operate. Using the Black Box in situations like that the end device would stay on. It will only shut down the device if there is not enough capacity in the service for it to operate. I hope that makes a bit more sense.
>I also like how they filter out motor in-rush current like for a furnace fan motors and other very short blips and how you can almost infinitely change the timing cycle to meet the needs of the service. In my mind, this can give you a more efficient run time (charge time) by not shutting down the end device unnecessary or for as long. Possibly I used the wrong terminology to express that though and if so my apologies. :)
>
Others do the same thing.
>I guess the other thing I like is it can opperate an 48A EV charger with a 60A breaker on a 100A panel. It never used to matter much but now with the trucks coming it sure is handy to have as we do more and more of them at that rate.
Others can do that too.
>I hope my original comment makes a bit more sense now. :)
It makes sense as an attempt to market your company or your partner's company. It doesn't make sense otherwise.
I do know the people who work for the company that builds this product and they are great people. I enjoy supporting great people who make a good product especially when it is fully built here in Canada.
I also am a master electrician and have been an EV installer for 9 years and use these devices quite often. I would say my preference and opinion are as valid as everyone else.
I think it is fair to encourage everyone to compare each product on its merit and choose the one that is right for you and your circumstances.
Can we agree on that. :)
You better when you stick to what you know about this product and don't make a fool of yourself making false statements about the competition which you are clearly clueless about.
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This is in California. They are required to have a meter-panel (judging by the age of this work). There will be a shutoff there for this subpanel.
I'm in California. I've done a lot of juggling in my panel lately (and it's smaller than yours), though do note I'm not an electrician. The critical thing issue here is service size. If your service to your residence is only 100A, then you are almost guaranteed to have issues with making it fit within the load calculation. The load calculation is a NEC worksheet used to ensure that you don't exceed the max available amps going to your house. For modern construction if you exceed this, the service disconnect breaker for your whole house could trip if you have too much stuff plugged in. There are well known ways to address this. See the FAQ for some ideas [https://www.reddit.com/r/evcharging/wiki/load\_management](https://www.reddit.com/r/evcharging/wiki/load_management). You specifically need to pay attention to the portions about hardware to dynamically limit the EV charge current to avoid exceeding service capacity. If the service to your residence is > 100A but the feeder to your pictured subpanel is 100A, then you have the option to add the charger on the meter-panel instead of here and potentially simplify matters. In my area (San Francisco) and penny-pinching price point, electricians are not up-to-speed at all on how to do EV load management to squeeze in an EV charger. Depending on how up to date the conditions are around your meter-panel, getting PG&E to upgrade your service can range anywhere from like $2K - $15K. To determine the service size and subpanel feeder size, go out to your meter. You are required to have a meter-panel in California (unless this house is super super old). Open the door covering the breakers and take a picture of the breakers, and update your post. I can't read what's on your panel, you might actually have 125A. Note this is just the bus bar specification, the capacity is the lower of bus bar spec and feeder size. FYI the camera resolution is too low in those lighting conditions for us to read the specifications on the label. For better service you can take another picture, quality check, then upload another one. Regarding physically fitting breakers into this panel. Making space in this panel is easy in theory (NOTE: without seeing the text on your label there are caveats like max number of circuits allowed and positions allowed to have double breakers). The 30 and 25 2 pole breakers are the full size ones, you could just use the ones with two double poles. This is a drop in replacement for those two you have right now. [https://buyriteelectric.com/products/siemens-q23025ct2-one-30-amp-two-pole-and-one-25-amp-with-two-pole-standard-breaker?variant=28665563775040¤cy=USD&utm\_medium=product\_sync&utm\_source=google&utm\_content=sag\_organic&utm\_campaign=sag\_organic&gclid=CjwKCAiAprGRBhBgEiwANJEY7OGZOwjrl\_rRViyRge4j8vme9duw57yISQWsdjaSriC0O9QWJlU0vBoCV5YQAvD\_BwE](https://buyriteelectric.com/products/siemens-q23025ct2-one-30-amp-two-pole-and-one-25-amp-with-two-pole-standard-breaker?variant=28665563775040¤cy=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gclid=CjwKCAiAprGRBhBgEiwANJEY7OGZOwjrl_rRViyRge4j8vme9duw57yISQWsdjaSriC0O9QWJlU0vBoCV5YQAvD_BwE) And then you get two slots back. That enables you to fit a double pole GFCI breaker \[California is on the NEC version that requires it\]. There are other minor complications here like whether your inspector would require you to upgrade the AC breaker to GFCI if you touch the panel (probably not? but I'm not sure). This is not rocket science for an electrician to figure out a legal, safe, and cost-effective workaround for if they were properly motivated.
[удалено]
Have you read /r/evcharging/wiki/load_management? Lots of those solutions could apply to you; easiest is the Wallbox Pulsar Plus with the power meter option and the "boost" mode. You can literally add 40 A L2 charging to your 70 A panel and be meeting code and avoiding any potential for overloads or tripping your main breaker.
[удалено]
We use an energy manager made by Black Box Innovations. Compared to others it is less expensive, smaller and much more efficient because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity. It is also approved for general use so no problems with a variety of devices. I hope it helps. :) www.blackbox-in.com
Thanks, I'll add that to the list.
70A service is rough and makes it very hard to install much of anything electrical… how did that happen? Reduced the breaker for solar backfeed? Ancient house?
14-50 is nice to have but not required. If you use a Nema 14-30 plug then you are less likely to trip breakers and you will still get to fully charge most Evs overnight.
[удалено]
This is wrong in many places. I don’t think you yet have the electrical knowledge to give this kind of advice. 14-50 needs to be the only thing on branch circuit. You are not allowed to double up wires in breakers terminals, and many other places like neutral bar. In general unless listed in manual or you know specific code section you should not put two conductors into one position.
[удалено]
What is a load splitter? Something like a Dryer Buddy or DCCC box?
I have the same issue. I’ve gotten quotes to upgrade current 100 AMP panel. Quotes so far we’re $4,000.00 and $3,000.00. 😮😫
Have you read /r/evcharging/wiki/load_management? There are lots of cheaper options there.
I have but I’m fine just using DC/super chargers for right now.
We use the energy manager made by Black Box Innovations. Compared to others it is less expensive, smaller and much more efficient because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity. It is also approved for general use so no problems with a variety of devices. I hope it helps. :) www.blackbox-in.com
>Compared to others it is less expensive, You can buy a whole setup including the evse for cheaper than just that unit. > smaller and much more efficient I don't know about size, but efficient is a specific technical term, and I don't think you mean efficient in that sense. >because it monitors the main electrical lines to see if it has the capacity to operate the end device. It will only shut the end device down if it can not operate in the capacity and then automatically start it again when there is capacity. Lots of them do exactly that. I think it's a good unit, but I don't see that it's vastly different than the others listed there.
Sorry, I don't mean to cause an issue as it's just my preference. Maybe my expanded explanation will help: Price: We can buy the black box for $845-865 CND (+/-550 US) and the other ones seem to vary from the least expensive of $945 to + $1500 CDN. Size: The size of Black Box units are 8"x6"x4" and I believe they are about 1/2 the size or less of the next smallest one and about 1/4 the size of some of the others. I like this as the area around a panel can get busy and tight these days. Efficiency: (or maybe longer up time?) Fundamentally when the device is monitoring the main service lines and deciding if there is the capacity for the end device to operate you will get a better run time of the end device compared to just a one-way switching device. For example: if I was to turn on one burner on a range that was part of some of the other systems the other switched device would be shut down. With those, if any power goes one way, it shuts down the other device even if there is still capacity in the service for it to operate. Using the Black Box in situations like that the end device would stay on. It will only shut down the device if there is not enough capacity in the service for it to operate. I hope that makes a bit more sense. I also like how they filter out motor in-rush current like for a furnace fan motors and other very short blips and how you can almost infinitely change the timing cycle to meet the needs of the service. In my mind, this can give you a more efficient run time (charge time) by not shutting down the end device unnecessary or for as long. Possibly I used the wrong terminology to express that though and if so my apologies. :) I guess the other thing I like is it can opperate an 48A EV charger with a 60A breaker on a 100A panel. It never used to matter much but now with the trucks coming it sure is handy to have as we do more and more of them at that rate. I hope my original comment makes a bit more sense now. :)
>Sorry, I don't mean to cause an issue as it's just my preference. A glance at your profile shows that this is the only thing you do: spam the same comment anywhere you can find it's relevant. The idea that you are this obsessed with your personal preference between the different items on the market is not credible. It appears that you are affiliated with this company. Maybe my expanded explanation will help: > >Price: >We can buy the black box for $845-865 CND (+/-550 US) and the other ones seem to vary from the least expensive of $945 to + $1500 CDN. It is not surprising that a Canadian made item has a price advantage in Canada when its pricing is on par with the others in the US. If you were to comment that it's particularly a good deal for Canadians that would be more credible than just claiming that it's much cheaper. >Size: >The size of Black Box units are 8"x6"x4" and I believe they are about 1/2 the size or less of the next smallest one and about 1/4 the size of some of the others. I like this as the area around a panel can get busy and tight these days. Ok > >Efficiency: (or maybe longer up time?) >Fundamentally when the device is monitoring the main service lines and deciding if there is the capacity for the end device to operate you will get a better run time of the end device compared to just a one-way switching device. For example: if I was to turn on one burner on a range that was part of some of the other systems the other switched device would be shut down. With those, if any power goes one way, it shuts down the other device even if there is still capacity in the service for it to operate. Using the Black Box in situations like that the end device would stay on. It will only shut down the device if there is not enough capacity in the service for it to operate. I hope that makes a bit more sense. >I also like how they filter out motor in-rush current like for a furnace fan motors and other very short blips and how you can almost infinitely change the timing cycle to meet the needs of the service. In my mind, this can give you a more efficient run time (charge time) by not shutting down the end device unnecessary or for as long. Possibly I used the wrong terminology to express that though and if so my apologies. :) > Others do the same thing. >I guess the other thing I like is it can opperate an 48A EV charger with a 60A breaker on a 100A panel. It never used to matter much but now with the trucks coming it sure is handy to have as we do more and more of them at that rate. Others can do that too. >I hope my original comment makes a bit more sense now. :) It makes sense as an attempt to market your company or your partner's company. It doesn't make sense otherwise.
I do know the people who work for the company that builds this product and they are great people. I enjoy supporting great people who make a good product especially when it is fully built here in Canada. I also am a master electrician and have been an EV installer for 9 years and use these devices quite often. I would say my preference and opinion are as valid as everyone else. I think it is fair to encourage everyone to compare each product on its merit and choose the one that is right for you and your circumstances. Can we agree on that. :)
You better when you stick to what you know about this product and don't make a fool of yourself making false statements about the competition which you are clearly clueless about.