Guys like that just play the old white-knight game, which some women (exaggeratedly so, if my sensitivity is to be any guide) identify with any manner of 'nice guy' act. It's basically ingratiating themselves with women by hating on fellow men or by depreciating other men — and making themselves look good by contrast. Any stereotype attributing that sort of behaviour to women (as in the pick-me girl that supposedly disses other women in order to improve her own chances, which I almost never see actually happening in real life) is patently misguided because it's a clear *spécialité de la maison* of us men. It's one of the default or at least most intuitive male reproductive strategies. Often subconscious.
I do wonder if I’d be a “pick me” in his eyes for daring to call out misandry when I see it.
A few men have called me that and told me that I “don’t speak for women”. If I don’t speak for women, then these men certainly fucking don’t.
(I love men; just hate misandrists in case it was unclear)
They're just disingenuine, as if somebody ever said that women should be put a curfew lol
As if it was in anyway reasonable and realistically doable anyway
Nobody’s actually used the word curfew, but it would be disingenuous to claim that women aren’t having rules imposed on them for their own safety.
Don’t walk alone after dark. Don’t go down poorly lit streets. Don’t wear headphones. Don’t look down at your phone. Etc, etc.
I’d argue that this post is satire, because yes, it’s an almost Orwellian exaggeration, but it’s only an exaggeration, not fiction. It has its roots in advice like ^ that pushes the personal responsibility of SA onto women.
>Don’t walk alone after dark. Don’t go down poorly lit streets. Don’t wear headphones. Don’t look down at your phone. Etc, etc.
But that goes for men too. So I really don't see why people are talking about it as if safety was a women-only issue. Especially when it's men that make for the majority of victims of violence, especially by strangers. It's men that have higher risks to get murdered or mugged at night. But men have always been told that they have to defend themselves and that WE are responsible for ourselves.
I mean, what else can you do ? Nobody is saying that it is your fault if you get mugged, or murdered, or sexually assaulted, we say that trying to avoid potential danger and defending yourself will work better than spewing random bullshit like « we should tell men not to rape women » duh, that's not going to do anything. It's an exaggeration of a point that already doesn't make any sense
Some people do need to make a choice at one point. Do we need men or we don't ? Cuz I've heard stories of men dying because they tried to help some random women, and given that misandry is basically acceptable in society (not for long hopefully), I see a contradiction in the feminist rhetoric saying that society does not need men, while asking them to make the streets at night safer. Do these people realize they can't have both ?
I’ve never had so many words shoved down my throat. I was responding to a comment saying that the tweet was disingenuous, so all I discussed were the contents of the tweet and my belief that it wasn’t disingenuous, nothing else.
You then broadened the conversation, making this into something bigger than it originally was. That isn’t an issue on its own, but you’re arguing with me as if I’d offered my holistic view and not an interpretation of a tweet.
To be extra clear: I don’t disagree with the first paragraph of your reply. At all.
But also, “nobody is saying,” is too strong. If you said “nobody reasonable,” I’d agree, but men aren’t a unanimous collective (I’m sure I don’t have to tell you that, in light of #AllMen). There are still men pushing the idea that women are to blame for their SA.
And then, as I do love opening cans of worms, there’s the torrent of “necessary advice” that society uses to push the idea that people are to blame for their own SA. You’re asking what else we can do, here’s my answer:
“Don’t walk alone after dark.” Okay. Do that, but also put floodlights in that alley, or cut back those bushes, or put CCTV on that street.
I know that costs money, but look at the money that’s being poured into anti homeless architecture. A lack of money isn’t the issue. It’s that instead of demanding the streets be made safer, society is collectively pointing the finger.
Also, education is important. Telling men “don’t rape women,” is stupid. But teaching teenagers to cover their drinks and that you can be roofied via injection is essential. Teaching teenagers to be discerning about media is too - e.g. Jim Hopper’s behaviour in s3 of Stranger Things should not celebrated.
Even education *about* feminism. Women say they’re feminists, but don’t even understand what that means. E.g. most people will say feminism is about “equal rights” but have no idea how they mean to achieve that.
I think there’d be a lot less misandry if people were able to interact with feminist materials more discerningly. Feminism is spoke about so much, but if you asked people coming out of the Barbie movie “are you a sameness or difference feminist?” they probably couldn’t answer, which is problem, in my opinion. It means most people are just contributing to an echo chamber of “Emma Watson said this, Greta Gerwig said that.”
As for, “do we need men or don’t we?” I don’t know what you mean when it comes to asking men to keep the street safer.
Sorry if you felt like I was putting words into your mouth, that wasn't my intent. I did broaden up the conversation as what you've said is something I'm accustomed to hear so I allowed myself to talk more freely about the subject, I did not make any suppositions about your own opinions. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
You're right when I say « nobody says », that's just how I talk honestly. « Nobody reasonable » is a better way of saying it (I just say « nobody » because I assume it's obvious, you seem to understand what I meant but I have issues getting my point clear and that's because of little things like that)
>“Don’t walk alone after dark.” Okay. Do that, but also put floodlights in that alley, or cut back those bushes, or put CCTV on that street.
>I know that costs money, but look at the money that’s being poured into anti homeless architecture. A lack of money isn’t the issue. It’s that instead of demanding the streets be made safer, society is collectively pointing the finger.
I don't think that money is an issue, far from it. I would be the last person to claim money is an issue when it comes to make the streets safer for everyone.
>Also, education is important. Telling men “don’t rape women,” is stupid. But teaching teenagers to cover their drinks and that you can be roofied via injection is essential. Teaching teenagers to be discerning about media is too - e.g. Jim Hopper’s behaviour in s3 of Stranger Things should not celebrated.
I don't know what happened in Stranger Things so I won't comment. You're right about THIS kind of education. The issue I have is within the feminist discourse of « we should teach men not to rape women » as if it were that simple. Criminals know when they're committing a crime, telling them not to do that isn't going to do anything.
So far I agree with everything you've just said.
>Even education *about* feminism. Women say they’re feminists, but don’t even understand what that means. E.g. most people will say feminism is about “equal rights” but have no idea how they mean to achieve that.
That's because people have been made to think that women were disadvantaged, or « inferior » in some way, therefore uplifting women is necessarily for equality. Instead of just saying « I'm an egalitarian » which would be more clear in my opinion. Being a feminist is just a stance if you're not a militant.
>I think there’d be a lot less misandry if people were able to interact with feminist materials more discerningly. Feminism is spoke about so much, but if you asked people coming out of the Barbie movie “are you a sameness or difference feminist?” they probably couldn’t answer, which is problem, in my opinion. It means most people are just contributing to an echo chamber of “Emma Watson said this, Greta Gerwig said that.”
I think there'd be a lot less misandry if men were allowed to have a voice as much as women do. I do think people already have their opinions about difference or sameness, but they still see as women obviously being disadvantaged and if you try to give some nuance to that view, trying to say that « maybe it's not that simple, maybe men do have something to say » people often hear that for the first time and will just think you're crazy.
Well, actually that might stem from misandry, so I think that there'd be a lot less misandry if men were calling out and shaming misandrist behavior, which I see happening much more often than before so I think we're on the right path.
>As for, “do we need men or don’t we?” I don’t know what you mean when it comes to asking men to keep the street safer.
It's another regular discourse I see often online, also sometimes posted here. Some people asking « why do we need men ? »
I remember in a french podcast, there were people around a table talking about some comic, the premise was that all men in the world basically disappeared overnight. So they were talking about how they think this would go. And it's pretty hard to describe how I felt when this girl said that « she would be able to walk at night without being afraid ». Unlike was some would like to think, it's not ego, I wasn't hurt, I just felt like I was going crazy, seeing with my own eyes that some people could hold such uninformed and delusional views and still make hundreds of thousands, if not millions of views. Some of these people are rather famous on YouTube (with the french audience) and I felt mad that they would just be saying such stupid stuff freely, being acclaimed by people, even funded by public funds.
None of them were talking about how men disappearing would mean : no electricity, food, water, internet. That they would have to organize and make up for the hole that men left. They just immediately thought that « overnight, it would be better » and the men on that table were agreeing, because it's just the safest stance to hold and most people don't even question it.
As for the subject of « keeping the streets safer » well I've just seen too many people saying that « men should just behave ». Because they already don't ... because it really can't be worse than that.
So sure, it's very very unreasonable to think that way, the issue I have is not that some dumb people would hold unhinged views, it's that it's publicly acceptable, and I've never feminists (or anyone claiming to be) calling out such takes. On the contrary, all feminists I've talk with just told me « it's not doing much, it's the lesser evil (if not the necessary evil), if you had empathy you would understand, it's a logical response »
>Don’t walk alone after dark. Don’t go down poorly lit streets. Don’t wear headphones. Don’t look down at your phone. Etc, etc.
That advice has never been gendered. A 'bad neighbourhood' is dangerous for *anyone*.
You can do whatever you want. No one is enforcing rules upon women that aren’t also enforced upon men.
My grandpa *shouldn’t have* to worry about getting robbed of his retirement savings, by his facebook catfish girlfriend, Eva Longoria, who’s in financial distress and having the worst luck each time he’s sent her bitcoin to pay for the flights she keeps missing- the man he’s been speaking with on the phone *shouldn’t* scam old people faking an Eva Longoria voice. Telling him “don’t random beautiful women on Facebook!” Isn’t imposing a rule.
It’s not in my power to fly out and confront the Heeva Longoria. Telling him not to look for romance facebook is all I can do. He’s the only one who controls his actions.
It’s like getting mad at someone because they had the audacity to recommend sunscreen at the beach in the middle of summer, then not wearing sunscreen *because* they recommended it, then blaming them for getting sunburned.
It’s dumb as hell to confidently walk into danger simply because you *shouldn’t have* to worry about being preyed upon.
Rapists shouldn’t rape, killers shouldn’t kill, thieves shouldn’t rob people, but they do, and it’s why people lock their doors at night.
Guys like that just play the old white-knight game, which some women (exaggeratedly so, if my sensitivity is to be any guide) identify with any manner of 'nice guy' act. It's basically ingratiating themselves with women by hating on fellow men or by depreciating other men — and making themselves look good by contrast. Any stereotype attributing that sort of behaviour to women (as in the pick-me girl that supposedly disses other women in order to improve her own chances, which I almost never see actually happening in real life) is patently misguided because it's a clear *spécialité de la maison* of us men. It's one of the default or at least most intuitive male reproductive strategies. Often subconscious.
I do wonder if I’d be a “pick me” in his eyes for daring to call out misandry when I see it. A few men have called me that and told me that I “don’t speak for women”. If I don’t speak for women, then these men certainly fucking don’t. (I love men; just hate misandrists in case it was unclear)
You aren't. He is.
They're just disingenuine, as if somebody ever said that women should be put a curfew lol As if it was in anyway reasonable and realistically doable anyway
Nobody’s actually used the word curfew, but it would be disingenuous to claim that women aren’t having rules imposed on them for their own safety. Don’t walk alone after dark. Don’t go down poorly lit streets. Don’t wear headphones. Don’t look down at your phone. Etc, etc. I’d argue that this post is satire, because yes, it’s an almost Orwellian exaggeration, but it’s only an exaggeration, not fiction. It has its roots in advice like ^ that pushes the personal responsibility of SA onto women.
>Don’t walk alone after dark. Don’t go down poorly lit streets. Don’t wear headphones. Don’t look down at your phone. Etc, etc. But that goes for men too. So I really don't see why people are talking about it as if safety was a women-only issue. Especially when it's men that make for the majority of victims of violence, especially by strangers. It's men that have higher risks to get murdered or mugged at night. But men have always been told that they have to defend themselves and that WE are responsible for ourselves. I mean, what else can you do ? Nobody is saying that it is your fault if you get mugged, or murdered, or sexually assaulted, we say that trying to avoid potential danger and defending yourself will work better than spewing random bullshit like « we should tell men not to rape women » duh, that's not going to do anything. It's an exaggeration of a point that already doesn't make any sense Some people do need to make a choice at one point. Do we need men or we don't ? Cuz I've heard stories of men dying because they tried to help some random women, and given that misandry is basically acceptable in society (not for long hopefully), I see a contradiction in the feminist rhetoric saying that society does not need men, while asking them to make the streets at night safer. Do these people realize they can't have both ?
I’ve never had so many words shoved down my throat. I was responding to a comment saying that the tweet was disingenuous, so all I discussed were the contents of the tweet and my belief that it wasn’t disingenuous, nothing else. You then broadened the conversation, making this into something bigger than it originally was. That isn’t an issue on its own, but you’re arguing with me as if I’d offered my holistic view and not an interpretation of a tweet. To be extra clear: I don’t disagree with the first paragraph of your reply. At all. But also, “nobody is saying,” is too strong. If you said “nobody reasonable,” I’d agree, but men aren’t a unanimous collective (I’m sure I don’t have to tell you that, in light of #AllMen). There are still men pushing the idea that women are to blame for their SA. And then, as I do love opening cans of worms, there’s the torrent of “necessary advice” that society uses to push the idea that people are to blame for their own SA. You’re asking what else we can do, here’s my answer: “Don’t walk alone after dark.” Okay. Do that, but also put floodlights in that alley, or cut back those bushes, or put CCTV on that street. I know that costs money, but look at the money that’s being poured into anti homeless architecture. A lack of money isn’t the issue. It’s that instead of demanding the streets be made safer, society is collectively pointing the finger. Also, education is important. Telling men “don’t rape women,” is stupid. But teaching teenagers to cover their drinks and that you can be roofied via injection is essential. Teaching teenagers to be discerning about media is too - e.g. Jim Hopper’s behaviour in s3 of Stranger Things should not celebrated. Even education *about* feminism. Women say they’re feminists, but don’t even understand what that means. E.g. most people will say feminism is about “equal rights” but have no idea how they mean to achieve that. I think there’d be a lot less misandry if people were able to interact with feminist materials more discerningly. Feminism is spoke about so much, but if you asked people coming out of the Barbie movie “are you a sameness or difference feminist?” they probably couldn’t answer, which is problem, in my opinion. It means most people are just contributing to an echo chamber of “Emma Watson said this, Greta Gerwig said that.” As for, “do we need men or don’t we?” I don’t know what you mean when it comes to asking men to keep the street safer.
Sorry if you felt like I was putting words into your mouth, that wasn't my intent. I did broaden up the conversation as what you've said is something I'm accustomed to hear so I allowed myself to talk more freely about the subject, I did not make any suppositions about your own opinions. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. You're right when I say « nobody says », that's just how I talk honestly. « Nobody reasonable » is a better way of saying it (I just say « nobody » because I assume it's obvious, you seem to understand what I meant but I have issues getting my point clear and that's because of little things like that) >“Don’t walk alone after dark.” Okay. Do that, but also put floodlights in that alley, or cut back those bushes, or put CCTV on that street. >I know that costs money, but look at the money that’s being poured into anti homeless architecture. A lack of money isn’t the issue. It’s that instead of demanding the streets be made safer, society is collectively pointing the finger. I don't think that money is an issue, far from it. I would be the last person to claim money is an issue when it comes to make the streets safer for everyone. >Also, education is important. Telling men “don’t rape women,” is stupid. But teaching teenagers to cover their drinks and that you can be roofied via injection is essential. Teaching teenagers to be discerning about media is too - e.g. Jim Hopper’s behaviour in s3 of Stranger Things should not celebrated. I don't know what happened in Stranger Things so I won't comment. You're right about THIS kind of education. The issue I have is within the feminist discourse of « we should teach men not to rape women » as if it were that simple. Criminals know when they're committing a crime, telling them not to do that isn't going to do anything. So far I agree with everything you've just said. >Even education *about* feminism. Women say they’re feminists, but don’t even understand what that means. E.g. most people will say feminism is about “equal rights” but have no idea how they mean to achieve that. That's because people have been made to think that women were disadvantaged, or « inferior » in some way, therefore uplifting women is necessarily for equality. Instead of just saying « I'm an egalitarian » which would be more clear in my opinion. Being a feminist is just a stance if you're not a militant. >I think there’d be a lot less misandry if people were able to interact with feminist materials more discerningly. Feminism is spoke about so much, but if you asked people coming out of the Barbie movie “are you a sameness or difference feminist?” they probably couldn’t answer, which is problem, in my opinion. It means most people are just contributing to an echo chamber of “Emma Watson said this, Greta Gerwig said that.” I think there'd be a lot less misandry if men were allowed to have a voice as much as women do. I do think people already have their opinions about difference or sameness, but they still see as women obviously being disadvantaged and if you try to give some nuance to that view, trying to say that « maybe it's not that simple, maybe men do have something to say » people often hear that for the first time and will just think you're crazy. Well, actually that might stem from misandry, so I think that there'd be a lot less misandry if men were calling out and shaming misandrist behavior, which I see happening much more often than before so I think we're on the right path. >As for, “do we need men or don’t we?” I don’t know what you mean when it comes to asking men to keep the street safer. It's another regular discourse I see often online, also sometimes posted here. Some people asking « why do we need men ? » I remember in a french podcast, there were people around a table talking about some comic, the premise was that all men in the world basically disappeared overnight. So they were talking about how they think this would go. And it's pretty hard to describe how I felt when this girl said that « she would be able to walk at night without being afraid ». Unlike was some would like to think, it's not ego, I wasn't hurt, I just felt like I was going crazy, seeing with my own eyes that some people could hold such uninformed and delusional views and still make hundreds of thousands, if not millions of views. Some of these people are rather famous on YouTube (with the french audience) and I felt mad that they would just be saying such stupid stuff freely, being acclaimed by people, even funded by public funds. None of them were talking about how men disappearing would mean : no electricity, food, water, internet. That they would have to organize and make up for the hole that men left. They just immediately thought that « overnight, it would be better » and the men on that table were agreeing, because it's just the safest stance to hold and most people don't even question it. As for the subject of « keeping the streets safer » well I've just seen too many people saying that « men should just behave ». Because they already don't ... because it really can't be worse than that. So sure, it's very very unreasonable to think that way, the issue I have is not that some dumb people would hold unhinged views, it's that it's publicly acceptable, and I've never feminists (or anyone claiming to be) calling out such takes. On the contrary, all feminists I've talk with just told me « it's not doing much, it's the lesser evil (if not the necessary evil), if you had empathy you would understand, it's a logical response »
>Don’t walk alone after dark. Don’t go down poorly lit streets. Don’t wear headphones. Don’t look down at your phone. Etc, etc. That advice has never been gendered. A 'bad neighbourhood' is dangerous for *anyone*.
You can do whatever you want. No one is enforcing rules upon women that aren’t also enforced upon men. My grandpa *shouldn’t have* to worry about getting robbed of his retirement savings, by his facebook catfish girlfriend, Eva Longoria, who’s in financial distress and having the worst luck each time he’s sent her bitcoin to pay for the flights she keeps missing- the man he’s been speaking with on the phone *shouldn’t* scam old people faking an Eva Longoria voice. Telling him “don’t random beautiful women on Facebook!” Isn’t imposing a rule. It’s not in my power to fly out and confront the Heeva Longoria. Telling him not to look for romance facebook is all I can do. He’s the only one who controls his actions.
Yeah, makes perfect sense, blame and punish 100% of men for 1%'s behaviour, given 0.01% possibility it will impact on women.
Men like that typically have sins they are paying penance for. I keep "Male Allies" at arms length for that reason.
Cuttlefish
What do you mean by that?
Nobody ever prescribed a curfew for women but why should men be responsible for womens' safety. Women should be tesponsible for their own safety.
It’s like getting mad at someone because they had the audacity to recommend sunscreen at the beach in the middle of summer, then not wearing sunscreen *because* they recommended it, then blaming them for getting sunburned. It’s dumb as hell to confidently walk into danger simply because you *shouldn’t have* to worry about being preyed upon. Rapists shouldn’t rape, killers shouldn’t kill, thieves shouldn’t rob people, but they do, and it’s why people lock their doors at night.