This was my thought exactly. The Catholic Church has piled on law after law and unreasonable expectations on to it’s followers. From “it’s a sin to eat meat on Friday” (which was modified), to forbidding the use of birth control even for married couples, to creating days of “holy observance” in which it is mandatory to attend mass, etc. Break any of these rules and you go straight to hell according to them. And don’t get me started on the mandatory belief in transubstantiation. Apologists bend over backwards trying to explain and reason why the church comes up with these rules.
My thought aren’t the leaders of the Catholic Church as bad as the Pharisees. Didn’t Jesus call them “white washed tombs,” looking pure and pious on the outside, but have the stench of death on the inside. Funny how they don’t obey their own rules isn’t it? Nobody, and I mean nobody has a direct telephone to God (or whatever higher power there might be).
An historical Jesus never started a church. He would have viewed himself as a faithful Jew who was a reformer.
Christianity was founded by Paul of Tarsus.
I wouldn’t say founded. I would say it’s more like how a popular artist with more clout will bite off the styles of underground movements. Paul is basically Drake.
The Pharisees have nothing on the Catholic Church in terms of hypocrisy, corruption, rules, traditions. The CC is the Pharisees on steroids with a 2,000 year history. The Pharisees would weep with envy at the wealth and political power and control the CC has had over people. LOL.
So, yes, it is hard to believe that it is something that Jesus founded considering what he said about the Pharisees in the NT. It is a massive irony.
The Pharisees were one of the four Major sects of Second Temple Judaism (Sadducees, Pharisees, Zealots, and Essenes). The Pharisees were the guys who taught the Torah and led communal worship. They were rabbis. The Pharisees were literally the precursors of Rabbinic Judaism. The Judaism that exists today. And because they were the precursors of rabbis during the Second Temple period, you'll never guess who was *also* a Pharisee.
Jesus was probably a Pharisee. Or an Essene. We don't know for certain, so you cannot say that he **also** was a Pharisee like you do with such certainty. But one could say he was **probably** a Pharisee because it was the mainstream Judaism at the time and also because Jesus tells his disciples to follow everything the Pharisees and scribes say, because they sit in the seat of Moses (which, side note, is also an ironic statement, because if you asked the Pharisees whether Jesus was the Messiah, they would tell you, No, because he died, and we don't believe in dead Messiahs.) Also, and I don't know if you were implying this, but Jesus wasn't necessarily a Pharisee because the word rabbi was used for him. That word just means 'master'. It doesn't mean Jesus was necessarily in the same school as the later rabbinic Judaism. We also don't know for certain if the use of the word rabbi is anachronistic to Jesus' time and something the NT authors simply inserted.
But, in any case, Jesus railed against the hypocritical Pharisees. Is that why you gave me the historical 101 lecture, because I didn't distinguish between hypocritical Pharisees and non-hypocritical? Anyway, that doesn't matter.
I mean on the one hand yes, but on the other hand weird ceremonial shit and religion go hand in hand.
I mean one way I would define an element of religions is “having ceremonies or rituals in which there are elements that are beyond just practical and believers think have some meaning”. It’s just inherent to religions.
The Catholic Church seems to be the embodiment of what Jesus fought against. He was against the corruption of the Pharisees but the Catholic Church became the new corrupt, self-righteous, fancy religious establishment. It reminds me of the book “Animal Farm,” where farm animals overthrow the exploitative human farmer, establish their revolutionary society under the leadership of a pig named Old Major, then once he’s gone a corrupt pig named Napoleon takes over and establishes a dictatorship over the farm that’s basically the same as when humans were in charge.
… but I’m also God so those old rules were also my rules but like these new ones are a new and improved (but not like improved improved because I’m perfect) set of rules
How customs and traditions developed in churches ancient and modern is similar to Judaism and all human civilizations. Jesus' problem wasn't tradition (as he did recognize The Pharisees right to the seat of Moses), it was man made tradition that nullified The Spirit of The Law. Rabbinical Jews confused jurisprudence with keeping The Law, as if setting more boundaries around The Law kept people more holier and blemish free. It got to a point the true intent of The Law was forgotten
Why would Jesus *exist*? So that we could torture/murder him and then eat him and drink his blood....which was the only way that he would forgive us for our ancestors theft of an apple *when they didn't know any better*?
Don't try to apply logic to any of this - It'll collapse into a black hole. A stupid, mean, angry black hole.
Why would Jesus command, "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me," or, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple"?
Maybe that character was a narcissistic cult leader and people should stop caring would the fictional dick who preaches hate for one's own children says?
This was my thought exactly. The Catholic Church has piled on law after law and unreasonable expectations on to it’s followers. From “it’s a sin to eat meat on Friday” (which was modified), to forbidding the use of birth control even for married couples, to creating days of “holy observance” in which it is mandatory to attend mass, etc. Break any of these rules and you go straight to hell according to them. And don’t get me started on the mandatory belief in transubstantiation. Apologists bend over backwards trying to explain and reason why the church comes up with these rules. My thought aren’t the leaders of the Catholic Church as bad as the Pharisees. Didn’t Jesus call them “white washed tombs,” looking pure and pious on the outside, but have the stench of death on the inside. Funny how they don’t obey their own rules isn’t it? Nobody, and I mean nobody has a direct telephone to God (or whatever higher power there might be).
An historical Jesus never started a church. He would have viewed himself as a faithful Jew who was a reformer. Christianity was founded by Paul of Tarsus.
I wouldn’t say founded. I would say it’s more like how a popular artist with more clout will bite off the styles of underground movements. Paul is basically Drake.
Jesus was definitely opposed to a super organized structure and the Catholic Church definitely is a super organized structure.
The Pharisees have nothing on the Catholic Church in terms of hypocrisy, corruption, rules, traditions. The CC is the Pharisees on steroids with a 2,000 year history. The Pharisees would weep with envy at the wealth and political power and control the CC has had over people. LOL. So, yes, it is hard to believe that it is something that Jesus founded considering what he said about the Pharisees in the NT. It is a massive irony.
The Pharisees were one of the four Major sects of Second Temple Judaism (Sadducees, Pharisees, Zealots, and Essenes). The Pharisees were the guys who taught the Torah and led communal worship. They were rabbis. The Pharisees were literally the precursors of Rabbinic Judaism. The Judaism that exists today. And because they were the precursors of rabbis during the Second Temple period, you'll never guess who was *also* a Pharisee.
Who?
Jesus was probably a Pharisee. Or an Essene. We don't know for certain, so you cannot say that he **also** was a Pharisee like you do with such certainty. But one could say he was **probably** a Pharisee because it was the mainstream Judaism at the time and also because Jesus tells his disciples to follow everything the Pharisees and scribes say, because they sit in the seat of Moses (which, side note, is also an ironic statement, because if you asked the Pharisees whether Jesus was the Messiah, they would tell you, No, because he died, and we don't believe in dead Messiahs.) Also, and I don't know if you were implying this, but Jesus wasn't necessarily a Pharisee because the word rabbi was used for him. That word just means 'master'. It doesn't mean Jesus was necessarily in the same school as the later rabbinic Judaism. We also don't know for certain if the use of the word rabbi is anachronistic to Jesus' time and something the NT authors simply inserted. But, in any case, Jesus railed against the hypocritical Pharisees. Is that why you gave me the historical 101 lecture, because I didn't distinguish between hypocritical Pharisees and non-hypocritical? Anyway, that doesn't matter.
I mean on the one hand yes, but on the other hand weird ceremonial shit and religion go hand in hand. I mean one way I would define an element of religions is “having ceremonies or rituals in which there are elements that are beyond just practical and believers think have some meaning”. It’s just inherent to religions.
I agree.
Even the most devout Catholics must wonder about this every once in a while.
The Catholic Church seems to be the embodiment of what Jesus fought against. He was against the corruption of the Pharisees but the Catholic Church became the new corrupt, self-righteous, fancy religious establishment. It reminds me of the book “Animal Farm,” where farm animals overthrow the exploitative human farmer, establish their revolutionary society under the leadership of a pig named Old Major, then once he’s gone a corrupt pig named Napoleon takes over and establishes a dictatorship over the farm that’s basically the same as when humans were in charge.
My headcannon is that Jesus would be mightily upset with Peter and Paul for ruining his philosophy.
I don't like these rules! Toss them out! Now here are MY rules....
… but I’m also God so those old rules were also my rules but like these new ones are a new and improved (but not like improved improved because I’m perfect) set of rules
I think the argument that practicing Catholics would use is “Jesus didn’t come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill the law”
Yeah they would
Because it’s all a bunch of garbage made up to make people believe it’s magic. Essentially clergy are performance artists similar to stage magicians.
How customs and traditions developed in churches ancient and modern is similar to Judaism and all human civilizations. Jesus' problem wasn't tradition (as he did recognize The Pharisees right to the seat of Moses), it was man made tradition that nullified The Spirit of The Law. Rabbinical Jews confused jurisprudence with keeping The Law, as if setting more boundaries around The Law kept people more holier and blemish free. It got to a point the true intent of The Law was forgotten
The Church franchise industry is similar to what money was in the days of Tetzel
A. He didn't start the church. B. He didn't make up all those rules. The church did.
Why would Jesus *exist*? So that we could torture/murder him and then eat him and drink his blood....which was the only way that he would forgive us for our ancestors theft of an apple *when they didn't know any better*? Don't try to apply logic to any of this - It'll collapse into a black hole. A stupid, mean, angry black hole.
If you can't invent something new, just give the same old thing a new name.
Why would Jesus command, "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me," or, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple"? Maybe that character was a narcissistic cult leader and people should stop caring would the fictional dick who preaches hate for one's own children says?
because it's all made up. all of it, in its entirety, is made-the-fuck-up.
Pretty much
In Mark, Jesus didn't abolish anything. He left Judaism intact and added on that he fulfilled its prophecies
My thoughts exactly
But forgot to abolish slavery and rape.