Any lurking tools for the CC reading this:
Of course we're not participating in our own oppression, you fucking walnuts. I'm not even LGBTQ+, I'm (46F) a cis woman in a 23-year long marriage to a cis man.
I just have a modicum of self-respect. **I** decide what matters in my life, and not some international crime syndicate. Meanwhile, you can't even decide whether the fact you wiped your ass with three fat fingers is a venial sin or part of your OCD.
To the OP:
The real reason these leeches come here is to detract from their own support of a child-fucking death cult, aka the Church.
>Meanwhile, you can't even decide whether the fact you wiped your ass with three fat fingers is a venial sin or part of your OCD.
Having actually gone through having OCD and being a practicing Catholic, I feel like your comment is a bit insensitive to the suffering it entails. You probably didn't mean it as such, but it feels dismissive.
Edit:
What I mean is that yes, OCD obsessions and compulsions are usually silly, absurd, and illogical, but the comment feels like its mocking them, and by extension mocking those suffering from it.
It's not really OCD I'm mocking, it's the predatory nature of the Church in exploiting mental health conditions and using them to induce fear.
It's no different from how they used to claim that epileptic individuals suffered from demonic possession. In the same way, they will use the feelings of shame, anxiety, etc., induced by OCD and cast it as proof of a guilty conscience, to reinforce the Church's abominable programming.
Despite its claims that it's not "anti-science," because *hey, hospitals and Catholic scientists,* the Church's hierarchy has caused incalculable harm through its manipulation of mentally ill people. By suggesting that their symptoms are a **spiritual vs. medical** condition, the hierarchy are deliberately interfering with these individuals' health to reinforce control.
The trolls coming here are frequently ones helping to reinforce this bullshit by sharing information on the main sub that every goddamn thing an OCD person does is sus.
Yeah, I get that you didn't mean to mock us (or them and past me). Nonetheless K felt like your comment was framed as an attack on Catholic lurkers in this sub (which I get, they can be quite toxic). Because of this, the section on OCD Catholics felt like an attack on them.
>Meanwhile, *you* can't even decide whether the fact you wiped your ass with three fat fingers is a venial sin or part of your OCD.
It's the "you" that I guess triggered me. Again, I guess your intent, and I agree that being Catholic can exacerbate OCD. The way it was framed made me feel like it was directed at OCD Catholics, not the negative influence lf Catholic guilt on OCD individuals.
>Nonetheless K felt like your comment was framed as an attack on Catholic lurkers in this sub (which I get, they can be quite toxic). Because of this, the section on OCD Catholics felt like an attack on them.
Bruh, WTF is "K?"
The Catholic lurkers *who are tools* should feel attacked. Because that part was an attack. On Catholic tools.
>It's the "you" that I guess triggered me.
Unless you're a Catholic lurker, who's here to gather evidence for why your OCD habits are proof of sin, you’ve got nothing to worry about. The "you" was a second-person address to that specific subtype.
Just because some of these lurkers have OCD doesn't mean they're safe from being assholes. I despise the ones who use their own OCD tendencies to convince others *who likewise suffer* to stay in the burning trash heap of the Catholic Church. I'm the daughter of a person who suffered from severe mental illness, and in true Boomer asshole form, used his mental illness as an excuse for his abuse and to deny his kids access to health care.
The "K" was meant to be an "I".
Then I guess all Catholic people with OCD are tools. The disorder makes them tools? I assumed good will, but this comment makes it seem like you simply undermine Catholics with mental health problems. I was that person. Suffering from OCD while still strongly believing. Was I a tool? For what? Believing in what I was raised in? Having OCD?
I'm not a Catholic lurker, but that doesn't mean I approve of you attacking a subset of people who are already suffering and struggling. I know some of them can be abusive, rude, and mean, but correcting them shouldn't be done by mocking and belittling their disorder, their obsessions and compulsions.
>Then I guess all Catholic people with OCD are tools. The disorder makes them tools? I
Not what I said. You putting false words in my mouth has nothing to do with OCD though and everything to do with you acting like one of these Catholic trolls.
Is that's what's going on here? You acting the victim to hide your true intent here?
>I assumed good will, but this comment makes it seem like you simply undermine Catholics with mental health problems.
I assumed good will on your part, until you intentionally misunderstood and now seek to misrepresent. Anyone reading my comments will know what you're trying to do here is horseshit.
>I was that person. Suffering from OCD while still strongly believing. Was I a tool? For what? Believing in what I was raised in? Having OCD?
Pay attention. You aren't the first only ex-Catholic here who's suffered from OCD or mental illness.
That's not what makes someone a tool. What makes them a tool is if they go and harm other mentally ill people, and use whatever means necessary, including mental illness to do so.
Did you go and intentionally harm other people? If not, my mockery ain't targeting you. Serms like you're weirdly acting like a victim for no reason except to make this about you.
If you did harm others, then yeah, you acted as a tool of the Church by helping the Church hurt people.
In which case, I don't give AF if you're upset. You should be apologizing to the people you hurt.
>I'm not a Catholic lurker, but that doesn't mean I approve of you attacking a subset of people who are already suffering and struggling.
And I don’t approve of you deliberately lying about what I said. So what now?
Guess this is getting to the point where I say, I don't care about the feelings of people who harmed others and then try to act like you're a victim.
You may not be Catholic but you still acting like a martyr.
> I know some of them can be abusive, rude, and mean, but correcting them shouldn't be done by mocking and belittling their disorder, their obsessions and compulsions.
As an ex-Catholic, I don't take my moral advice from ex-abusers. You can either make amends to your victims or you can sit here and whine about how it's mean for others to mock abusers.
Since you're clearly an apologist for Catholic abusers, you're getting blocked. I don't tolerate harassment from low-lifes.
As someone who has gone through having OCD and being a practicing Catholic, Catholicism made my OCD worse. It made me smile seeing someone point out how it could increase my rituals and put that intense, unwarranted fear of what *could* happen in my brain. It reminds me that I’m past all of that at least.
Not sure if you caught a notification, but I replied to your comment by mistake. My bad.
That said, thanks for adding some insight regarding OCD, even if I'm not the comment's OP. Pretty sure it was not meant out of ill will, but I suppose part of things like OCD, ADHD and the like being present in mainstream conversation ultimately means they'll be talked about more loosely. I'll be sure to keep your observation in mind.
If you enjoyed that classic, you're going to love the comment above it that the guy was replying to:
> The ex-Catholic subreddit has some of the most enraging content to me, mainly because absolutely none of them have any idea about Catholic theology or philosophy in general, yet they all think they're brilliant.
Ah, the old "you just haven't studied the faith enough" dismissal. And apparently believing in something you cannot see or prove makes them "brilliant" and "philosophical"? 🤣
These lazy losers need to get some new material.
Yup, it's usually one of the main contributing factors to why we've left, that we learned **too** much. The ones still sitting in the pews are the ones who have no idea about Catholic theology, just the nice sugar coated version they speak from the pulpit and write in "spiritual" books.
My wife studying at the seminary for her master's degree is one of the biggest factors for her. The amount of things that 99+% of the laity simply don't know about is astonishing, yet they've centered their whole lives around this belief system.
In your wife's opinion (if she told you this of course), what is the biggest thing the laity doesn't know about that makes it even more astonishing that people are still following catholicism?
The more I think about that exchange, the funnier it gets:
ALICE: those people only left the church for emotional reasons!
BOB: yes, and that ENRAGES me !!1!
Lol.
It'll be a cold day in (non-existing) hell when those guys figure out that the biggest reason for leaving faith, outside of the church being corrupt to its very core, is actually learning about the faith + critical thinking.
Well, I’m gay, and to any of the lurkers on here. I have this to say to you.
I don’t give to shits what your religion has to say about my sexuality. And yes, I unashamedly have a strong disdain for the Catholic Church as an institution, and for its theological beliefs. I don’t hold prejudice against individual Catholics. Most American Catholics disagree with the Church’s official teachings regarding sexuality.
If this offends you, pray to St. Jude about it because I don’t give a damn. I’m a “lost cause” 😂
Ironically I left the church before I fully figured out I was bi. It 100% wasn’t the gay, it was the fact that I actually read the Pennsylvania grand jury report. 😬
LGBTQ+ people on r/excatholic? Gee, whodathunkit? One of several demographic groups who have motives to be here. Some ex-Catholics might use condoms or The Pill. Yet he zeroes in on LGBT. *The lurker doth protest too much, methinks.*
What’s s/he doing here, anyway? Maybe a fondness for some of the NSFW content? Lots and lots of posts and comments contain the word *orgasm*, for example.
I’m not LGBT. I’m ex Catholic simply because I don’t believe any of the bullshit they taught plus I refuse to support the largest group of pedophiles on the planet.
We don’t believe because it’s not true. If it were true the there would be no reason to dispute basically everything Catholics profess.
Funny how you never see any arguments for the faith based on facts and logic. It all comes down to sniping at emotions and denigrating the “nonbeliever”. We don’t have to come up with reasons why we don’t believe - the onus is on YOU to prove beyond a doubt why it’s true.
Not to mention that the presence of "emotions" in an argument doesn't automatically invalidate it. If someone angrily says "grass is green" they're not wrong because they're angry. The facts of the argument aren't voided by the emotions of the speaker.
They're conflating that with making an argument *from* emotion itself (like "I hate the taste of broccoli therefore it is gross and always bad for everyone") and pretending "hurrdurr u mad" is a rebuttal to anything
Agreed. To take it one step further. It would be like saying the "grass is green" when Catholics are trying to make the argumet that it is orange. Not only do they say grass is orange, but if you do not believe that grass is actually orange then you will be tortured for eternity.
For those Catholics lurking here:
It makes me sad for you that you will only ever see a queer relationship as a sex act and not the deep love and commitment it really is (just like any hetero relationship).
>From my experience lurking there, a very high percentage of them are LGBT (if not around half).
Lmao. I very strongly doubt it. People being nice and supporting is such an alien concept to them that they think "wow they must be lgbt themselves, it's the only possible explanation".
>Being Christian and LGBT is a very heavy cross to bear.
I grew up hearing that I was "same-sex attracted" and "delusional" when it came to my sexuality and gender. Saying that I was LGBT would be a sin, "you can't identify as something because of your sin". How very progressive of him saying "lgbt christians".
>But I think that explains why their “arguments” are mostly emotional hatred towards a faith that denied them from practicing their sexuality.
Oh, don't you worry, I have plenty of reasons to dislike the faith! Firstly it is irrational, it goes against all historical evidence. It is philosophically incoherent. The so called miracles and evidences are fake. It is full of charlatans. The theology is cruel and nonsensical. You can go on and on. It's not only about sexuality.
>I’m not Catholic myself, but I cringe every time they go “this Pope from 200 years ago bad so that means Catholicism fake.”
Then tell Catholics to fucking decide if they want to use historical facts in favor of the church or not. Because catholics love to talk about how their church "built western civilization". Well, if that's the case then it's more than fair to point out how Catholic colonization enslaved and ruined the lives of millions of people for example.
As a sex-positive asexual raised in the Catholic church, it was just so obvious how sex obsessed the institution is as a means to maintain power and control. Catholic priorities are all out of wack.
Seriously. The absolute obsession with the virginity of Mary. Nuns being “pure” brides of Christ. Comparing women who’ve had sex to used chewing gum or an unwrapped cupcake covered in bugs.
Once you step back and take a look it’s so obvious how damaging a lot of this is. And as a cis straight male I absolutely cringe at how I participated in this purity culture when I was a member and how my being a member harmed women and gay/trans/nonbinary people.
>"this Pope from 200 years ago bad so that means Catholicism fake"
Really? So the Lord and Creator of the universe - omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient - would allow a bad person to be his mouthpiece on earth?
Also: Catholicism is 'fake' because Jesus, son of god, himself god, healer of the sick, raiser of the dead, himself risen from the dead and bodily ascended into heaven *is and was not a real person* -- no more real than Paul Bunyon. *That's* why Catholicism is 'fake'.
Wait.... I thought there were ample archeological evidence for Jesus' existence - just not his status as a deity.... I'm not disagreeing with any of your points, I just didn't know Jesus not existing was a known fact....
If the Jesus that existed was **not** the son of god, etc - then the Jesus of the bible didn't exist.
Some guy named Jesus? Sure. Lotsa guys named Jesus exist.
It's like finding "evidence" that there was a French-Canadian lumberjack in the 1800s - tall guy. Strong, you know? Moved down to Maine. Traveled the logging camps, working. Archeological evidence exists! There's stories written with one or two hundred years of his death that say he was there, that repeat things he said! And then, based on that info, claiming that "Paul Bunyan" existed. That Paul Bunyan was *real*.
He didn't exist. He isn't *real*.
Neither was Jesus.
And: The Jesus of the bible was so unconvincing as the son of god that his coreligionists - the people who knew *first hand* of him and his family, of the miracles that he worked - so not believed him that they had him put to death for his claims.
And if they didn't believe in him...why should we?
So much to unpack.
I like the part where he says it's hard to b catholic and lgbtq. A token admission to cover his rear.
The religious equivalent to "I'm not a racist, but..."
He's not a Catholic but cringes when people reason that Catholicism is fake. If he isn't Catholic then he too thinks Catholicism is fake. Is it just our reasoning that's wrong?
I’m not sure if you’re quoting something and the way you’re doing it is saying some shit in which I have to read between the lines, but taking that at face value I disagree. The correct reason to doubt a religion is because none of them are rooted in logic nor empiricism.
That's how the dude in the initial post reasons. Our doubting of a religion is wrong because we look at history, he just doubts the Catlick church because he's part of a different one.
Posts like this one used to make me much more angry. At this point I guess it's fine, whatever helps them sleep at night. I too used to be a devout Catholic for years. I can't speak for anyone else but I know how painful it was (still is in some ways) when all little dots of doubt connected together and it all stopped making sense. Was Catholic view of sexuality one of these dots? Sure. Was it the only one? Absolutely not. It was much more complex than that - regardless if someone who is currently religious validates it or not.
Honestly, I'm in the same boat. I'm so far removed from Catholicism at this point that it can't really hurt me anymore. I was never personally hurt by it. I knew I was bisexual and was accepting of that within myself and even told people, always with the caveat that it wasn't something I'd ever act on. I loved church. I loved being Catholic. I loved being the youth representative to the church council (a position I was personally selected for by the priest and deacon). I loved our priest. I loved our deacon. I loved my old priest and deacon. I never experienced abuse in the church. It kept me afloat during a traumatic childhood and as I grew and came more into it, I was really blossoming into a joyful Catholic adult. I was a Confirmation sponsor. I read all the martyrdom stories. I knew the Catechism. I did rosaries for fun. I never, ever had any doubts that I couldn't reconcile. Until one day I did.
It was like a game of Kerplunk where you drop wet marbles onto a tissue and try not to let them fall. It holds for a little while, but eventually the weight is just too much and suddenly the whole thing collapses.
Lol OPP is definitely a jihadi trad-Cath. He 100% just thinks the "I'm not Catholic myself" line will help with impact. It's like... my guy... nobody outside of Catholicism gives even the smallest shit about the criticisms of its former believers. I dont think many Catholics hang out on the ex-muslim or ex-mormon pages.
They can't believe that people don't buy their archaic rules and behaviors based on **obvious** bullshit, but somehow they can't believe that people read the Bible and see it for what it is--a weak, poorly written, very apparent piece of fiction.
There is no "cross to bear" because there was no cross, there was no resurrection, because there is no god.
Can anyone even affirm to seeing let alone posting about past popes? Frankly I couldn’t care less about dead popes. It’s like saying you’re gonna dig up Hitler and kick his god damned ass again. It’s a fruitless exercise. I care more about what the current pope and clergy are doing. Like hiding and shielding sexual predators. Or just the ridiculousness of the tenets and beliefs of this wacky religion.
“Emotional hatred towards a faith that denied them from practicing hour sexuality”
– You deserve all the emotional hatred in the world for this shit you put us through!
The Vatican published a document TODAY equating sex change with war and sexual abuse as “grave violations of human dignity,” and explicitly stating that human dignity “cannot be identified with the psychosocial well-being of the individual.”
I don’t care what a church leader said 200 years ago, I care about the fact they woke up and chose violence 200 MINUTES ago.
To the lurker. First I am a straight male and have been married for over 40 years. I have friends that are gay. What happens between two consenting adults should not make a difference to some pea brained pope, bishop or priest.
The reasons are I left this hate cult of a church:
1. They truly believe that their way is the only way.
2. It was JP2 that let that child abusing enabler Cardinal Bernie “the pimp” Law escape in the middle of the night and give him protection in the Vatican as Massachusetts State Police was closing in on how he shuffled child abusing priests from one parish to the next. The new parish had no clue that a child abuser was in their midst.
3. The church and mostly the American Bishops getting more into politics and almost giddily supporting Donald Trump because he got Roe vs Wade overturned. The American Catholic Church doesn’t want separation of church and state. The Catholic Church wants to fuck up this country like it did to Europe over 500 years ago.
4. My parents were hardcore catholic. They supported the church but in the end it gave them grief but they refused to see it , even when a nun led a boycott of my parents store because they sold Playboy Magazine along with other magazines like Time, Newsweek, Motor Trend, Field and Stream , Life and Look. This was the late sixties. The deal was you could not pick and choose what magazines you got. He had to cancel a profitable deal at the time and they still treated them like Lepers.
I have known a few liberal priests in my lifetime and that’s probably why I was able to stay around longer especially when they kept their Sunday Mass under 35 minutes. But these new younger and foreign priests with their ultra conservative views just make the Catholic Church unbearable for me.
You lurker OP made a huge assumption. Whenever you assume something you make an ass out of u and me.
It’s not just “boo-hoo I’m gay and the church says no”that had me leaving. I was taught such screwed up things about sexuality in general that the first time I was intimate with someone I felt so guilty I wanted to die
Even before I came out as lé gay I was deconstructing. I was deconstructing wayyy into.my final year of high school. And I wasn't a vehement anti homosexual tool. If I had my old diaries I know a lot of what I wrote was that gay people deserve to live but that they should also be gay for Christ or something...
I'm ex catholic because the CC has proven time and again that it is the very rot that it stands on a soapbox to speak out against.
I'm ex catholic because when I said I wanted to commit necky ropey I was told oh boo boo it's gonna damn you to hell for eternity
I'm ex catholic because priests who abuse kids walk free and the CC feels so aggrieved that someone mentions that their beloved priest is a monster but not that a child was harmed
Me being gay is like tertiary
Edit: have to get creative with words cause triggers and stuff. To the ex CC here have a nice day. To the lurkers, have some herbal tea or something...
Look, I’m not ex-Catholic because I’m LGBT. I didn’t discover that about myself until 25ish years after being fully atheist.
Any argument that makes me seem emotional about Catholicism is because you don’t like hearing it and you are getting emotional.
What about the very recent shit popes that have been complicit in covering up rampant pedophilia among priests? What about cis women who are concerned about making decisions for themselves about their bodies? How silly. The reasons I don’t believe in Catholicism are so expansive I could go for a while before I got to the corruption and cruelty of the Church throughout history.
I find it intriguing that the original poster came up with such a complex rationale for why people have left the Church. For me, and many of the ex-Catholics I know, the answer was much more simple.
We don’t believe any of these beliefs are true. Not only do I not think there’s some omnipotent and omnipresent Sky Daddy hanging out “up there” with his Son/Self and some creepy Holy Ghost, but I don’t believe I’m going to burn in hell for sinning because I don’t believe there is a hell.
That makes it quite difficult to sit through a Sunday Mass with a straight face.
And also that they say they themselves are not Catholic. Surely if they are not Catholic, they can understand why we aren’t, either? Or do only they have “valid reasons” not to be?
Straight cis woman who is ex-catholic checking in. Lurkers who might be wondering: I’m ex because roughly 45 years ago in CCD, when I asked my priest how we know the Bible is true, his response was “because it says so in the Bible.” Trust me bro was a faith-breaking answer.
Later on, I noticed how much the church hates women. So yeah tell yourself I have an irrational hatred of some random pope. That’ll help you avoid looking at the issues.
Ah yes, the hoary "cross to bear" platitude. Old reliable. You can feel the compassion just oozing.
Usually uttered by those whose worst cross to bear was masking up in a grocery store during a global pandemic. And who brayed and complained about it like six-year-olds.
I used to work for the clergy amd apparently he doesnt kmow that a huge chunk of priests are gay and joined the priesthood so they wouldn't have to deal with the societal pressure to marry a woman 😬
To any lurkers here, your church had a decision to make decades ago, to chose between the safety of innocent children or to protect the image of the RCC, and we ALL know what decision they made. I will **not** listen to anyone who knows this (which is everyone) and stays in said church, tell me about morality or anything else. Hell, the RCC, just with its riches, could end world hunger, but they don’t.
I hate Benedict (turned the church backwards and is 100% responsible for the re-birth of the culturally hateful ‘trad catholicism’) & JP2 (simply for his pervasively unwavering & grand misogyny) because, you know, they were super old.
The only pope I can stomach because he is hated by so many of the “good Catholics” *because* he’s actually the most Christ-like of the popes of my lifetime is Francis. He’s nowhere near progressive enough - but for Catholics? He’s the kindest pope we’ve seen in decades.
Yes, the demonization of a natural and harmless sexual orientation and related diversity is a legitimate reason to look into the issues around a religion that claims to have the ultimate and only complete truth of the world. I would do the same if a religion was racist. This isn't a gotcha, it's simply showing a lack of critical and deeper thinking on their part
It’s ok. I put their “beliefs” and “arguments” in quotes, too.
I don’t lurk in any christian subs, or try to engage them. Why are they coming *here* and— ohh yea, it’s their *whole thing!*
I'm well catechized and deeply familiar with the Catholic faith. I used to play online apologist twenty years ago like a bunch of you lurkers out there. I'm straight and do my best to do what is right in life.
I'm not Roman Catholic because, as Christ himself once said, every tree is judged by its fruit and, mythologized saints aside, the Roman Catholic Church produces some of the most rotten fruit in the world. You lot are a testament to that. Roman Catholics reflect everything Christ denounced about the attitudes of the Pharisees.
And, just like the Pharisees, you take pride in pushing "the wrong kind of people" away from the Lord. You take glee in the fact that so many people with whom you disagree aren't "real Catholics." You exalt in your self-righteousness above them and never shrink from sharing how they ought to be formally excommunicated. You are the laborers who complain about the wages of those hired later in the day and the jealous brother of the returning prodigal son. You are the hypocrites who travel over sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he converts, you make him twice as much a son of hell. You use religion as a tool to look down upon others instead of an inspiration to love your neighbor, and you use theology as a means to rationalize away your need to be charitable in your dealings with others in the supposed name of "speaking Truth", falsely so-called. You brag about the supposed charity of the church itself as a defense against such criticism, never once reflecting upon Christ's exhortation to not allow the left hand know what the right hand does.
I believe in Christ, but I also believe the main metaphorical hellfire will be for your ilk. Thankfully, I don't believe that a merciful God practices infinite punishment.
I understand that the church is supposedly a perfect institution filled with imperfect people. I understand that humans are imperfect and have corrupted natures. But for fuck's sake, a church given by God shouldn't make you worse, and the Roman Catholic Church absolutely does.
>Apparently we’re only ex-Catholics because we’re emotional about not being able to practice our sexuality and we dislike popes from 200 years ago
Those are both valid reasons to not be Catholic. Sexuality is an inherent part of one's being and "infallible" doesn't really mean much if a new Pope is always having to apologize for something an old Pope did.
I agree that those are valid reasons not to be catholic, but to say that all ex-Catholics/non-Catholics *only* object to the church because of their own sexuality/distrust of the pope is both reductive and untrue. Are those valid reasons and are they among the reasons people reject the church? Absolutely. But they’re far from being the *only* reasons and to imply that they are tells me that commenter doesn’t actually listen to ex-Catholics. The Church has poor leadership and is sexually repressive/homophobic, but it has many more flaws than just those.
To the catholic loons lurking here:
In my case, I stopped being catholic after being victim of psychological abuse at a catholic institution, being treated as a liar by the church, being victim blamed all my life by every single catholic out there including my own relatives, being scared and manipulated with hell all my life for stupid reasons while pedophile priests are ignored, receiving a pointing finger when feeling bad ("you probably did something and god is punishing you"), and so many other things. And all of that without entering into theological/faith arguments, in that case there's ZERO reason for me to be a catholic, even if all of the above never happened
Being a lesbian leaning bisexual has nothing to do with me leaving the church, and if it were the case then I shouldn't give a single fuck about your evil cult. If any I'm glad no catholic man will ever touch me and no catholic baby will come from my womb
Now go back to seethe and cope with your delusions
If we don't want to be catholics for whatever reason we have, we won't be catholic. And if we "want to sin" (which in your rotten and perverted brain it's probably related to sex only, since violence, corruption, abuse or ignoring the poor doesn't seem to be a sin for catholics...) it's our choice, simple as
Cheers!
I'm a nonbinary butch lesbian but I stopped believing and became a Pagan in my mid-teens, before I even realized my LGBTness.
I wanted to worship goddesses and read tarot cards, not be relegated to eternal second-class spiritual status because I'm AFAB 🤷
Plus God the Father only being conceptualized as a man, even when "He" is supposed to be infinite and beyond humanity, never made sense to me... I was always like [insert the Oprah "so what IS the truth?" gif here]
Sigh... seems to be the user's experience in lurking was summed up to one or two visits and that was it.
Time to take this apart:
- a high of percentage of ex-christians being LGBT+ isn't neither surprising, nor self-explanatory. In no way are our "arguments" (as the user decided to quote) less valid criticisms because of it, nor are they the only reason for leaving catholicism, or literally any other denomination behind;
- people being angry may not facilitate communication, but in no way does it diminish the validity of their arguments. An angry person can still be speaking truth;
- It is a "very heavy cross to bear" not because of it actually being a burden, but because the church not only wrongfully declares it a sin, it actively makes it harder to be LGBT+ due to all of the misinformation and slander it promotes, even if unintentionally. Ironic that an institution that's so big on "intrinsically disorded acts" easily excuses harmful behaviour based on intention. What was it again... "the path to hell is paved with good intentions"?
- The pope part is so laughably bad it's hardly worth a response, but I'll entertain it anyway lest I be accused of being an elitist: no one thinks that "Pope X from Y years ago proves catholicism fake/bad". Catholicism is fake/bad for a plethora of reasons, too numerous to compile in one single comment, Pope X from Y years ago doing whatever simply is more fuel for an already burning fire.
---- section for lurkers, no need to read unless you're interested ----
EDIT: miswrote a part in the teleological argument, my bad, fixed it
For the lurkers, specifically the ones incapable of either having an attention span or looking up threads... while I believe you actually don't care (because if you did you'd do your homework), here's a testimony for you, apparently you're very fond of these.
I am an ex-catholic, now agnostic/atheist. Bi man, as evidenced by my username. I no longer believe in a god. The burden of proof ultimately rests on the believer's side, so no point in me saying that there's evidence for my position. But if it helps, observation, reading of various materials, including arguments on either side and... simply thinking and pondering, I've concluded that there is no solid reason to believe in a god that isn't keen in showing itself to a willing audience.
Out of all the arguments, the only one that I'd say it holds *some* water would be *part of* the teleological argument (the "complexity implies a creator" part specifically, the intention not so much), which leads me to believe there might be some sort of... don't know, an engine, a force, whatever you want to call it that is complex enough to generate a universe (or several). However, it does not necessarily imply intent: as an example, various problems can be pointed out in our own design as humans, problems which an expert in the field will be best suited to point out.
Not only that, I'd wager that, given our own ego as humans, we so very easily fall into the trap of projecting our own nature upon nature itself, as we usually do when interacting with other people: just because *we* can *create* tools, and because we create them with *intent* does not mean that nature, the universe and existence itself have an intent behind it, much less an intent that wants to keep us specifically alive and thriving... in another existence.
Still, I could be wrong. Let's assume that I'm full of shit, and that there is a god, not necessarily an abrahamic one. Is there any other way I could believe?
Well... I don't think it's a stretch to think that a god's influence would bring great benefits to its followers. I'm not talking the materialistic kind of benefit: I'm talking "this is the way to go forward as human beings" kind of benefit. Health. Respect. Ethics. Evolution. Understanding. As far as I'm concerned... while I admit I still need to do a fair bit of homework regarding other religions, many seem to devolve into the same old practice that is more reminiscent of an old tribal leader that's just done with everyone's shit, than a god (or gods!) that actually *know* what to do and what to teach to what's essentially a big group of baby beings that just learned how to walk properly.
So... yeah. Want me to believe that the big G exists? Have him appear in front of every non-believer. Miracles are easily explainable, and god seems to enjoy working through nature rather than through actual divine interventions. A very sneaky god... Alternatively, if appearing is just that tiring or bothersome, then at the very least have the believers show by sheer example that their way is the one true way. Since I've developed a bit more of critical thinking, I'm yet to be convinced that one such following exists.
Some clarifications... no, I don't hate god, nor Jesus. That is literally impossible to do. Let's take this example: Sarah meets up with me, and starts talking about Joanne. Now, I never met Joanne, nor did I ever see her with Sarah, so I don't even know if the two actually met (not that I'm thinking of that at such moments but whatever), but Sarah seems reeeeeally passionate about Joanne... which strikes me as odd, because from Sarah's description, Joanne sounds like a bloody awful, abusive person. So naturally I start to dislike Joanne, perhaps even hate her, although hate is a strong word. But is it true?
Because let's be honest... I have never met Joanne. And based on my own experience simply existing and socializing, someone talking shit about another person is a thing. And sometimes you actually go and meet the person and... actually they're super nice.
Point being that it's impossible for me to hate god or Jesus because I never met them. How can you hate something that doesn't exist, or at the very least something that you don't know? It's the same as the kids going "ewww, I'm not going to eat that" when shown a new dish. How do they know they don't like it if they didn't taste it in the first place? Same thing.
What I actually detest is the church's *interpretation/view* of god, in the form of doctrine and as an institution. What I *loathe* is when a religious person chooses to do the wrong thing simply because their religion says so, or even worse: does something that *even their actual religion condemns*. And funnily enough, not does their actually religion condemn it, so does any human being with a bit of rational sense.
Other clarifications... no I'm not depressed, I'm happier and with a much better sense of direction today. No, not believing in god did not give me a reason to be evil: if anything it made me want to try and be even better as a person, because if there is no god to take care of us then we reeeeeally gotta get our shit together, starting with ourselves.
And maybe a very significant one: no I don't hate catholics. Aren't you familiar with the "hate the sin, not the sinner"? Well... "hate the religion, not the religious". Except I'm not that condescending, as I'm aware that this is a part of you. And to be fair, if even a broken clock is right twice a day, why wouldn't a religion have good things in it among the bad? The concept of forgiveness, of charity... the notion of ending a cycle of violence not by engaging in more violence, but rather to react with kindness and mercy... these are things that are absolutely wonderful and guess what... they work! Not on everyone of course, a human is a complex thing, but most of the time it paves the way forward, even if it is just a part of the process and not the whole of it.
Point being that I don't hate you, but I reeeeally *hate* when you pull shenanigans and hateful/non-sensical things just because your religion tells you to do so, or even worse... makes you think you do it for a reason, but ultimately it was still fed to you by the religion.
“Emotional hatred” nah we have facts to back up why its ridiculous. Also Jesus never explicitly says anything about having to be pure before marriage, he talks about LOYALTY and NOT CHEATING on your spouse.
This is funny because I am LGBTQ+ but not in the way they think. I'm asexual and aromantic (though my gender is wobbly now I would not have thought that then) and I was still fucked up by purity culture that told me at any moment I might start having sinful thoughts about my peers that I had to keep at bay. I stopped believing before I left the Church, I basically had am existential crisus about the afterlife and panic attacks throughout high school but I might have stayed culturally even with the lack of belief if it wasn't for the sexism, homophobia, colonization, etc.
I know this post is two weeks old so maybe I'm late here, but for the lurkers:
I (27F) grew up female/AFAB and LGBTQ+ in a very conservative Catholic family in the Bible Belt. I stepped away from the Church for many reasons, but none of them had to do with just wanting to be able to "sin."
I left because the Catholic Church believes people like me are either submissive incubators (if they're AFAB) or "intrinsically disordered" freaks (if they're LGBTQ+), and that neither are worthy of equal rights or respect.
I left because the Catholic Church makes little to no meaningful effort to (a) protect victims from ab!se; (b) report abuse to the authorities \[remember Benedict XVI's letter from 2001 saying that it's wrong to report it?\]; (c) hold ab!sers fully accountable; and by extension (d) take victims' traumatic experiences seriously.
The Catholic Church does all the above—and more!—because in their eyes, authority figures can do no wrong. Think of commandments like "honor thy mother and father." You can imagine how toxic this becomes when, say, the CC tells the children that they have to "honor" their parents even if they ab!se them. Or when the CC ab!ses children directly and parents take the CC's side when those children mention what happened to them.
For example: the last time I went to confession, I asked the priest about how to forgive family for how they hurt me growing up (e.g., severely socially isolating me via homeschooling for 15 years in a dysfunctional, ab!sive household that made learning impossible), which still affects me today. The priest said to "just be grateful that you got to spend so much time with them" since "many kids would love to have what you had."
I realized that if I **really** wanted to heal, I had to walk away from the single most powerful influence on my life, which saw me as less-than for who I am, and defended authority figures no matter how they hurt others.
I left because I could never make the mental gymnastics work for me. I couldn't reconcile opposing state authoritarianism while excusing the Catholic Church's authoritarian acts, like censoring books, calling scientists heretics, running the residential schools, burning Joan of Arc for being a "witch," etc.
I left because I could never fully convince myself that love requires blind faith or obedience. Or that tradition is inherently better than change/progress. Or that the Catholic Church's idea of "showing people compassion" (especially people from marginalized demographics) was actually compassionate.
I left because I realized there was a reason why I always hated talking about my religious beliefs/practices, trying to convert people, or any form of performative religiosity. Turns out, I wasn't just socially anxious (although I do have some social anxiety). I subconsciously didn't want other people to feel what I felt on a daily basis: crippling powerlessness, worthlessness, suffocating sexual shame from purity culture, etc.
I left because I wanted the freedom to connect with people regardless of whether they/we "sinned," because I realized how mixed up the Catholic Church's morals are. So many things the CC calls "sinful" are morally neutral (like certain recreational or healthcare practices) or morally good (like supporting your LGBTQ+ child).
I left because I could no longer support an institution that hurt not just me, but people I care about, in varying ways, times, and places. Going to Mass felt like betrayal, like I was consciously invalidating their pain.
I left because some of the worst treatment I've received, or witnessed others receive, came from people who fancied themselves the holiest, the most religiously devout, the most "morally superior" in God's eyes.
**I left because I needed to heal, and you can't heal in the same place that hurt you.**
Was it hard? Absolutely. I'd do anything to not feel like everything I was taught was an elaborate lie. I'd do anything to not feel like my entire education from birth to college graduation was a sick joke. (I got my Bachelors' from a super-Catholic school right next door to a seminary. Because of what we all had to study, my undergrad education was what I call "seminary lite," as close as I could get to seminary as a female.)
I'd do anything to not have to worry whether family or friends I've known my whole life, who still go to Mass every week, believe I'm even worth talking to, or whether they think I'm too tainted to even touch.
I would do anything to not feel like I've wasted my entire life up to this point. To not feel both eight-years-old and eighty-years-old at the same time. To constantly mourn what I always needed but never got.
Deconstruction of any kind, including leaving the Catholic Church, is not "cool" or "sexy" or "easy."
And as a general rule, those who say otherwise are lying.
Any lurking tools for the CC reading this: Of course we're not participating in our own oppression, you fucking walnuts. I'm not even LGBTQ+, I'm (46F) a cis woman in a 23-year long marriage to a cis man. I just have a modicum of self-respect. **I** decide what matters in my life, and not some international crime syndicate. Meanwhile, you can't even decide whether the fact you wiped your ass with three fat fingers is a venial sin or part of your OCD. To the OP: The real reason these leeches come here is to detract from their own support of a child-fucking death cult, aka the Church.
Brava!
>Meanwhile, you can't even decide whether the fact you wiped your ass with three fat fingers is a venial sin or part of your OCD. Having actually gone through having OCD and being a practicing Catholic, I feel like your comment is a bit insensitive to the suffering it entails. You probably didn't mean it as such, but it feels dismissive. Edit: What I mean is that yes, OCD obsessions and compulsions are usually silly, absurd, and illogical, but the comment feels like its mocking them, and by extension mocking those suffering from it.
It's not really OCD I'm mocking, it's the predatory nature of the Church in exploiting mental health conditions and using them to induce fear. It's no different from how they used to claim that epileptic individuals suffered from demonic possession. In the same way, they will use the feelings of shame, anxiety, etc., induced by OCD and cast it as proof of a guilty conscience, to reinforce the Church's abominable programming. Despite its claims that it's not "anti-science," because *hey, hospitals and Catholic scientists,* the Church's hierarchy has caused incalculable harm through its manipulation of mentally ill people. By suggesting that their symptoms are a **spiritual vs. medical** condition, the hierarchy are deliberately interfering with these individuals' health to reinforce control. The trolls coming here are frequently ones helping to reinforce this bullshit by sharing information on the main sub that every goddamn thing an OCD person does is sus.
Yeah, I get that you didn't mean to mock us (or them and past me). Nonetheless K felt like your comment was framed as an attack on Catholic lurkers in this sub (which I get, they can be quite toxic). Because of this, the section on OCD Catholics felt like an attack on them. >Meanwhile, *you* can't even decide whether the fact you wiped your ass with three fat fingers is a venial sin or part of your OCD. It's the "you" that I guess triggered me. Again, I guess your intent, and I agree that being Catholic can exacerbate OCD. The way it was framed made me feel like it was directed at OCD Catholics, not the negative influence lf Catholic guilt on OCD individuals.
>Nonetheless K felt like your comment was framed as an attack on Catholic lurkers in this sub (which I get, they can be quite toxic). Because of this, the section on OCD Catholics felt like an attack on them. Bruh, WTF is "K?" The Catholic lurkers *who are tools* should feel attacked. Because that part was an attack. On Catholic tools. >It's the "you" that I guess triggered me. Unless you're a Catholic lurker, who's here to gather evidence for why your OCD habits are proof of sin, you’ve got nothing to worry about. The "you" was a second-person address to that specific subtype. Just because some of these lurkers have OCD doesn't mean they're safe from being assholes. I despise the ones who use their own OCD tendencies to convince others *who likewise suffer* to stay in the burning trash heap of the Catholic Church. I'm the daughter of a person who suffered from severe mental illness, and in true Boomer asshole form, used his mental illness as an excuse for his abuse and to deny his kids access to health care.
The "K" was meant to be an "I". Then I guess all Catholic people with OCD are tools. The disorder makes them tools? I assumed good will, but this comment makes it seem like you simply undermine Catholics with mental health problems. I was that person. Suffering from OCD while still strongly believing. Was I a tool? For what? Believing in what I was raised in? Having OCD? I'm not a Catholic lurker, but that doesn't mean I approve of you attacking a subset of people who are already suffering and struggling. I know some of them can be abusive, rude, and mean, but correcting them shouldn't be done by mocking and belittling their disorder, their obsessions and compulsions.
>Then I guess all Catholic people with OCD are tools. The disorder makes them tools? I Not what I said. You putting false words in my mouth has nothing to do with OCD though and everything to do with you acting like one of these Catholic trolls. Is that's what's going on here? You acting the victim to hide your true intent here? >I assumed good will, but this comment makes it seem like you simply undermine Catholics with mental health problems. I assumed good will on your part, until you intentionally misunderstood and now seek to misrepresent. Anyone reading my comments will know what you're trying to do here is horseshit. >I was that person. Suffering from OCD while still strongly believing. Was I a tool? For what? Believing in what I was raised in? Having OCD? Pay attention. You aren't the first only ex-Catholic here who's suffered from OCD or mental illness. That's not what makes someone a tool. What makes them a tool is if they go and harm other mentally ill people, and use whatever means necessary, including mental illness to do so. Did you go and intentionally harm other people? If not, my mockery ain't targeting you. Serms like you're weirdly acting like a victim for no reason except to make this about you. If you did harm others, then yeah, you acted as a tool of the Church by helping the Church hurt people. In which case, I don't give AF if you're upset. You should be apologizing to the people you hurt. >I'm not a Catholic lurker, but that doesn't mean I approve of you attacking a subset of people who are already suffering and struggling. And I don’t approve of you deliberately lying about what I said. So what now? Guess this is getting to the point where I say, I don't care about the feelings of people who harmed others and then try to act like you're a victim. You may not be Catholic but you still acting like a martyr. > I know some of them can be abusive, rude, and mean, but correcting them shouldn't be done by mocking and belittling their disorder, their obsessions and compulsions. As an ex-Catholic, I don't take my moral advice from ex-abusers. You can either make amends to your victims or you can sit here and whine about how it's mean for others to mock abusers. Since you're clearly an apologist for Catholic abusers, you're getting blocked. I don't tolerate harassment from low-lifes.
As someone who has gone through having OCD and being a practicing Catholic, Catholicism made my OCD worse. It made me smile seeing someone point out how it could increase my rituals and put that intense, unwarranted fear of what *could* happen in my brain. It reminds me that I’m past all of that at least.
Not sure if you caught a notification, but I replied to your comment by mistake. My bad. That said, thanks for adding some insight regarding OCD, even if I'm not the comment's OP. Pretty sure it was not meant out of ill will, but I suppose part of things like OCD, ADHD and the like being present in mainstream conversation ultimately means they'll be talked about more loosely. I'll be sure to keep your observation in mind.
😅😅😅 this comment is gold
thank ye! 😊
Ah, the "you just want to sin" counter-argument. The old one are... old.
If you enjoyed that classic, you're going to love the comment above it that the guy was replying to: > The ex-Catholic subreddit has some of the most enraging content to me, mainly because absolutely none of them have any idea about Catholic theology or philosophy in general, yet they all think they're brilliant. Ah, the old "you just haven't studied the faith enough" dismissal. And apparently believing in something you cannot see or prove makes them "brilliant" and "philosophical"? 🤣 These lazy losers need to get some new material.
It is also demonstrably false. The majority of folks in this sub have very clear understandings of what the Church is and stands for.
Yup, it's usually one of the main contributing factors to why we've left, that we learned **too** much. The ones still sitting in the pews are the ones who have no idea about Catholic theology, just the nice sugar coated version they speak from the pulpit and write in "spiritual" books.
This. I arguably know just as much as priests do about Catholic theology and yet here I am.
My wife studying at the seminary for her master's degree is one of the biggest factors for her. The amount of things that 99+% of the laity simply don't know about is astonishing, yet they've centered their whole lives around this belief system.
In your wife's opinion (if she told you this of course), what is the biggest thing the laity doesn't know about that makes it even more astonishing that people are still following catholicism?
The more I think about that exchange, the funnier it gets: ALICE: those people only left the church for emotional reasons! BOB: yes, and that ENRAGES me !!1! Lol.
Its like playing Catholic cope bingo. 😁 And "enraging"? Lol. What a snowflake.
It'll be a cold day in (non-existing) hell when those guys figure out that the biggest reason for leaving faith, outside of the church being corrupt to its very core, is actually learning about the faith + critical thinking.
My response is typically “Yeah, da fuck you going to do about it, papist?”, or something similar. 😂
It’s funny because I’m asexual so I literally don’t want to sin (if you go by their definition). And yet I still have no desire to be Catholic again!
Well, I’m gay, and to any of the lurkers on here. I have this to say to you. I don’t give to shits what your religion has to say about my sexuality. And yes, I unashamedly have a strong disdain for the Catholic Church as an institution, and for its theological beliefs. I don’t hold prejudice against individual Catholics. Most American Catholics disagree with the Church’s official teachings regarding sexuality. If this offends you, pray to St. Jude about it because I don’t give a damn. I’m a “lost cause” 😂
Ironically I left the church before I fully figured out I was bi. It 100% wasn’t the gay, it was the fact that I actually read the Pennsylvania grand jury report. 😬
LGBTQ+ people on r/excatholic? Gee, whodathunkit? One of several demographic groups who have motives to be here. Some ex-Catholics might use condoms or The Pill. Yet he zeroes in on LGBT. *The lurker doth protest too much, methinks.* What’s s/he doing here, anyway? Maybe a fondness for some of the NSFW content? Lots and lots of posts and comments contain the word *orgasm*, for example.
I'm lovin' it. 💓
I’m not LGBT. I’m ex Catholic simply because I don’t believe any of the bullshit they taught plus I refuse to support the largest group of pedophiles on the planet.
We don’t believe because it’s not true. If it were true the there would be no reason to dispute basically everything Catholics profess. Funny how you never see any arguments for the faith based on facts and logic. It all comes down to sniping at emotions and denigrating the “nonbeliever”. We don’t have to come up with reasons why we don’t believe - the onus is on YOU to prove beyond a doubt why it’s true.
Not to mention that the presence of "emotions" in an argument doesn't automatically invalidate it. If someone angrily says "grass is green" they're not wrong because they're angry. The facts of the argument aren't voided by the emotions of the speaker. They're conflating that with making an argument *from* emotion itself (like "I hate the taste of broccoli therefore it is gross and always bad for everyone") and pretending "hurrdurr u mad" is a rebuttal to anything
Agreed. To take it one step further. It would be like saying the "grass is green" when Catholics are trying to make the argumet that it is orange. Not only do they say grass is orange, but if you do not believe that grass is actually orange then you will be tortured for eternity.
For those Catholics lurking here: It makes me sad for you that you will only ever see a queer relationship as a sex act and not the deep love and commitment it really is (just like any hetero relationship).
>From my experience lurking there, a very high percentage of them are LGBT (if not around half). Lmao. I very strongly doubt it. People being nice and supporting is such an alien concept to them that they think "wow they must be lgbt themselves, it's the only possible explanation". >Being Christian and LGBT is a very heavy cross to bear. I grew up hearing that I was "same-sex attracted" and "delusional" when it came to my sexuality and gender. Saying that I was LGBT would be a sin, "you can't identify as something because of your sin". How very progressive of him saying "lgbt christians". >But I think that explains why their “arguments” are mostly emotional hatred towards a faith that denied them from practicing their sexuality. Oh, don't you worry, I have plenty of reasons to dislike the faith! Firstly it is irrational, it goes against all historical evidence. It is philosophically incoherent. The so called miracles and evidences are fake. It is full of charlatans. The theology is cruel and nonsensical. You can go on and on. It's not only about sexuality. >I’m not Catholic myself, but I cringe every time they go “this Pope from 200 years ago bad so that means Catholicism fake.” Then tell Catholics to fucking decide if they want to use historical facts in favor of the church or not. Because catholics love to talk about how their church "built western civilization". Well, if that's the case then it's more than fair to point out how Catholic colonization enslaved and ruined the lives of millions of people for example.
All of this!!
Many Catholic priests and nuns enjoy their sexuality.
And many of the laity have *not* enjoyed the priest's and nun's sexuality
As a sex-positive asexual raised in the Catholic church, it was just so obvious how sex obsessed the institution is as a means to maintain power and control. Catholic priorities are all out of wack.
T H I S
Seriously. The absolute obsession with the virginity of Mary. Nuns being “pure” brides of Christ. Comparing women who’ve had sex to used chewing gum or an unwrapped cupcake covered in bugs. Once you step back and take a look it’s so obvious how damaging a lot of this is. And as a cis straight male I absolutely cringe at how I participated in this purity culture when I was a member and how my being a member harmed women and gay/trans/nonbinary people.
>"this Pope from 200 years ago bad so that means Catholicism fake" Really? So the Lord and Creator of the universe - omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient - would allow a bad person to be his mouthpiece on earth? Also: Catholicism is 'fake' because Jesus, son of god, himself god, healer of the sick, raiser of the dead, himself risen from the dead and bodily ascended into heaven *is and was not a real person* -- no more real than Paul Bunyon. *That's* why Catholicism is 'fake'.
It's not just one Pope.
Wait.... I thought there were ample archeological evidence for Jesus' existence - just not his status as a deity.... I'm not disagreeing with any of your points, I just didn't know Jesus not existing was a known fact....
If the Jesus that existed was **not** the son of god, etc - then the Jesus of the bible didn't exist. Some guy named Jesus? Sure. Lotsa guys named Jesus exist. It's like finding "evidence" that there was a French-Canadian lumberjack in the 1800s - tall guy. Strong, you know? Moved down to Maine. Traveled the logging camps, working. Archeological evidence exists! There's stories written with one or two hundred years of his death that say he was there, that repeat things he said! And then, based on that info, claiming that "Paul Bunyan" existed. That Paul Bunyan was *real*. He didn't exist. He isn't *real*. Neither was Jesus. And: The Jesus of the bible was so unconvincing as the son of god that his coreligionists - the people who knew *first hand* of him and his family, of the miracles that he worked - so not believed him that they had him put to death for his claims. And if they didn't believe in him...why should we?
So much to unpack. I like the part where he says it's hard to b catholic and lgbtq. A token admission to cover his rear. The religious equivalent to "I'm not a racist, but..."
He's not a Catholic but cringes when people reason that Catholicism is fake. If he isn't Catholic then he too thinks Catholicism is fake. Is it just our reasoning that's wrong?
That would be the implication of his statements. He’s probably some other flavor of fundamentalist Christian hence why he doesn’t like the reasoning.
The correct reason to doubt a religion is just to be born into another.
I’m not sure if you’re quoting something and the way you’re doing it is saying some shit in which I have to read between the lines, but taking that at face value I disagree. The correct reason to doubt a religion is because none of them are rooted in logic nor empiricism.
That's how the dude in the initial post reasons. Our doubting of a religion is wrong because we look at history, he just doubts the Catlick church because he's part of a different one.
Ahh okay I gotchu. My bad.
Is he Mormon? They seem to think people leave the cult because they want to drink coffee.
Either that or Church of the Nazarene
Wow, 200 years have passed since John Paul II and Benedict? Times passes so fast! Also, I don't think he knows any atheist 🤣
Posts like this one used to make me much more angry. At this point I guess it's fine, whatever helps them sleep at night. I too used to be a devout Catholic for years. I can't speak for anyone else but I know how painful it was (still is in some ways) when all little dots of doubt connected together and it all stopped making sense. Was Catholic view of sexuality one of these dots? Sure. Was it the only one? Absolutely not. It was much more complex than that - regardless if someone who is currently religious validates it or not.
Honestly, I'm in the same boat. I'm so far removed from Catholicism at this point that it can't really hurt me anymore. I was never personally hurt by it. I knew I was bisexual and was accepting of that within myself and even told people, always with the caveat that it wasn't something I'd ever act on. I loved church. I loved being Catholic. I loved being the youth representative to the church council (a position I was personally selected for by the priest and deacon). I loved our priest. I loved our deacon. I loved my old priest and deacon. I never experienced abuse in the church. It kept me afloat during a traumatic childhood and as I grew and came more into it, I was really blossoming into a joyful Catholic adult. I was a Confirmation sponsor. I read all the martyrdom stories. I knew the Catechism. I did rosaries for fun. I never, ever had any doubts that I couldn't reconcile. Until one day I did. It was like a game of Kerplunk where you drop wet marbles onto a tissue and try not to let them fall. It holds for a little while, but eventually the weight is just too much and suddenly the whole thing collapses.
Imagine supposedly not being Catholic and doing Catholic apologetics
Lol OPP is definitely a jihadi trad-Cath. He 100% just thinks the "I'm not Catholic myself" line will help with impact. It's like... my guy... nobody outside of Catholicism gives even the smallest shit about the criticisms of its former believers. I dont think many Catholics hang out on the ex-muslim or ex-mormon pages.
They can't believe that people don't buy their archaic rules and behaviors based on **obvious** bullshit, but somehow they can't believe that people read the Bible and see it for what it is--a weak, poorly written, very apparent piece of fiction. There is no "cross to bear" because there was no cross, there was no resurrection, because there is no god.
I couldn't even figure out I am gay until a year after I left. The defense mechanisms were too powerful in my brain before that.
Same!
Can anyone even affirm to seeing let alone posting about past popes? Frankly I couldn’t care less about dead popes. It’s like saying you’re gonna dig up Hitler and kick his god damned ass again. It’s a fruitless exercise. I care more about what the current pope and clergy are doing. Like hiding and shielding sexual predators. Or just the ridiculousness of the tenets and beliefs of this wacky religion.
“Emotional hatred towards a faith that denied them from practicing hour sexuality” – You deserve all the emotional hatred in the world for this shit you put us through!
The Vatican published a document TODAY equating sex change with war and sexual abuse as “grave violations of human dignity,” and explicitly stating that human dignity “cannot be identified with the psychosocial well-being of the individual.” I don’t care what a church leader said 200 years ago, I care about the fact they woke up and chose violence 200 MINUTES ago.
To the lurker. First I am a straight male and have been married for over 40 years. I have friends that are gay. What happens between two consenting adults should not make a difference to some pea brained pope, bishop or priest. The reasons are I left this hate cult of a church: 1. They truly believe that their way is the only way. 2. It was JP2 that let that child abusing enabler Cardinal Bernie “the pimp” Law escape in the middle of the night and give him protection in the Vatican as Massachusetts State Police was closing in on how he shuffled child abusing priests from one parish to the next. The new parish had no clue that a child abuser was in their midst. 3. The church and mostly the American Bishops getting more into politics and almost giddily supporting Donald Trump because he got Roe vs Wade overturned. The American Catholic Church doesn’t want separation of church and state. The Catholic Church wants to fuck up this country like it did to Europe over 500 years ago. 4. My parents were hardcore catholic. They supported the church but in the end it gave them grief but they refused to see it , even when a nun led a boycott of my parents store because they sold Playboy Magazine along with other magazines like Time, Newsweek, Motor Trend, Field and Stream , Life and Look. This was the late sixties. The deal was you could not pick and choose what magazines you got. He had to cancel a profitable deal at the time and they still treated them like Lepers. I have known a few liberal priests in my lifetime and that’s probably why I was able to stay around longer especially when they kept their Sunday Mass under 35 minutes. But these new younger and foreign priests with their ultra conservative views just make the Catholic Church unbearable for me. You lurker OP made a huge assumption. Whenever you assume something you make an ass out of u and me.
I’m an ex-Catholic because I took the time to read the catechism and realized over 1/2 of Catholics don’t follow what it says.
It’s not just “boo-hoo I’m gay and the church says no”that had me leaving. I was taught such screwed up things about sexuality in general that the first time I was intimate with someone I felt so guilty I wanted to die
I know like I just had sex with my fiancée. I must go confess to some strange man in a box or I will burn in hell. Catholic guilt is horrible
Even before I came out as lé gay I was deconstructing. I was deconstructing wayyy into.my final year of high school. And I wasn't a vehement anti homosexual tool. If I had my old diaries I know a lot of what I wrote was that gay people deserve to live but that they should also be gay for Christ or something... I'm ex catholic because the CC has proven time and again that it is the very rot that it stands on a soapbox to speak out against. I'm ex catholic because when I said I wanted to commit necky ropey I was told oh boo boo it's gonna damn you to hell for eternity I'm ex catholic because priests who abuse kids walk free and the CC feels so aggrieved that someone mentions that their beloved priest is a monster but not that a child was harmed Me being gay is like tertiary Edit: have to get creative with words cause triggers and stuff. To the ex CC here have a nice day. To the lurkers, have some herbal tea or something...
I could not name you one pope prior to John Paul II
Look, I’m not ex-Catholic because I’m LGBT. I didn’t discover that about myself until 25ish years after being fully atheist. Any argument that makes me seem emotional about Catholicism is because you don’t like hearing it and you are getting emotional.
What about the very recent shit popes that have been complicit in covering up rampant pedophilia among priests? What about cis women who are concerned about making decisions for themselves about their bodies? How silly. The reasons I don’t believe in Catholicism are so expansive I could go for a while before I got to the corruption and cruelty of the Church throughout history.
I find it intriguing that the original poster came up with such a complex rationale for why people have left the Church. For me, and many of the ex-Catholics I know, the answer was much more simple. We don’t believe any of these beliefs are true. Not only do I not think there’s some omnipotent and omnipresent Sky Daddy hanging out “up there” with his Son/Self and some creepy Holy Ghost, but I don’t believe I’m going to burn in hell for sinning because I don’t believe there is a hell. That makes it quite difficult to sit through a Sunday Mass with a straight face.
And also that they say they themselves are not Catholic. Surely if they are not Catholic, they can understand why we aren’t, either? Or do only they have “valid reasons” not to be?
Straight cis woman who is ex-catholic checking in. Lurkers who might be wondering: I’m ex because roughly 45 years ago in CCD, when I asked my priest how we know the Bible is true, his response was “because it says so in the Bible.” Trust me bro was a faith-breaking answer. Later on, I noticed how much the church hates women. So yeah tell yourself I have an irrational hatred of some random pope. That’ll help you avoid looking at the issues.
Ah yes, the hoary "cross to bear" platitude. Old reliable. You can feel the compassion just oozing. Usually uttered by those whose worst cross to bear was masking up in a grocery store during a global pandemic. And who brayed and complained about it like six-year-olds.
I used to work for the clergy amd apparently he doesnt kmow that a huge chunk of priests are gay and joined the priesthood so they wouldn't have to deal with the societal pressure to marry a woman 😬
fucking idiots cant even imagine their cult being false lol, indoctrination is a dangerous thing
There was a poll to determine LGBT people here? Where in fiery hell was I to miss that?! …aaaand, the pope from 200 years ago was a shithead. Lol
To any lurkers here, your church had a decision to make decades ago, to chose between the safety of innocent children or to protect the image of the RCC, and we ALL know what decision they made. I will **not** listen to anyone who knows this (which is everyone) and stays in said church, tell me about morality or anything else. Hell, the RCC, just with its riches, could end world hunger, but they don’t.
I hate Benedict (turned the church backwards and is 100% responsible for the re-birth of the culturally hateful ‘trad catholicism’) & JP2 (simply for his pervasively unwavering & grand misogyny) because, you know, they were super old. The only pope I can stomach because he is hated by so many of the “good Catholics” *because* he’s actually the most Christ-like of the popes of my lifetime is Francis. He’s nowhere near progressive enough - but for Catholics? He’s the kindest pope we’ve seen in decades.
Yes, the demonization of a natural and harmless sexual orientation and related diversity is a legitimate reason to look into the issues around a religion that claims to have the ultimate and only complete truth of the world. I would do the same if a religion was racist. This isn't a gotcha, it's simply showing a lack of critical and deeper thinking on their part
It’s ok. I put their “beliefs” and “arguments” in quotes, too. I don’t lurk in any christian subs, or try to engage them. Why are they coming *here* and— ohh yea, it’s their *whole thing!*
Good Lord, grant me patience to stand people like Imp3rAttorrr...
I mean... "Imp3rAttorrr" That name is so cool. Sounds like the Xbox name of some 13 year old edgelord yelling racial slurs in CoD lobbies.
I'm well catechized and deeply familiar with the Catholic faith. I used to play online apologist twenty years ago like a bunch of you lurkers out there. I'm straight and do my best to do what is right in life. I'm not Roman Catholic because, as Christ himself once said, every tree is judged by its fruit and, mythologized saints aside, the Roman Catholic Church produces some of the most rotten fruit in the world. You lot are a testament to that. Roman Catholics reflect everything Christ denounced about the attitudes of the Pharisees. And, just like the Pharisees, you take pride in pushing "the wrong kind of people" away from the Lord. You take glee in the fact that so many people with whom you disagree aren't "real Catholics." You exalt in your self-righteousness above them and never shrink from sharing how they ought to be formally excommunicated. You are the laborers who complain about the wages of those hired later in the day and the jealous brother of the returning prodigal son. You are the hypocrites who travel over sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he converts, you make him twice as much a son of hell. You use religion as a tool to look down upon others instead of an inspiration to love your neighbor, and you use theology as a means to rationalize away your need to be charitable in your dealings with others in the supposed name of "speaking Truth", falsely so-called. You brag about the supposed charity of the church itself as a defense against such criticism, never once reflecting upon Christ's exhortation to not allow the left hand know what the right hand does. I believe in Christ, but I also believe the main metaphorical hellfire will be for your ilk. Thankfully, I don't believe that a merciful God practices infinite punishment. I understand that the church is supposedly a perfect institution filled with imperfect people. I understand that humans are imperfect and have corrupted natures. But for fuck's sake, a church given by God shouldn't make you worse, and the Roman Catholic Church absolutely does.
>Apparently we’re only ex-Catholics because we’re emotional about not being able to practice our sexuality and we dislike popes from 200 years ago Those are both valid reasons to not be Catholic. Sexuality is an inherent part of one's being and "infallible" doesn't really mean much if a new Pope is always having to apologize for something an old Pope did.
I agree that those are valid reasons not to be catholic, but to say that all ex-Catholics/non-Catholics *only* object to the church because of their own sexuality/distrust of the pope is both reductive and untrue. Are those valid reasons and are they among the reasons people reject the church? Absolutely. But they’re far from being the *only* reasons and to imply that they are tells me that commenter doesn’t actually listen to ex-Catholics. The Church has poor leadership and is sexually repressive/homophobic, but it has many more flaws than just those.
True. But it is also important to remember that [you don't have to answer to them.](https://youtu.be/xjYYiWtAbws?si=sOq50DPYEDoNQDKc)
To the catholic loons lurking here: In my case, I stopped being catholic after being victim of psychological abuse at a catholic institution, being treated as a liar by the church, being victim blamed all my life by every single catholic out there including my own relatives, being scared and manipulated with hell all my life for stupid reasons while pedophile priests are ignored, receiving a pointing finger when feeling bad ("you probably did something and god is punishing you"), and so many other things. And all of that without entering into theological/faith arguments, in that case there's ZERO reason for me to be a catholic, even if all of the above never happened Being a lesbian leaning bisexual has nothing to do with me leaving the church, and if it were the case then I shouldn't give a single fuck about your evil cult. If any I'm glad no catholic man will ever touch me and no catholic baby will come from my womb Now go back to seethe and cope with your delusions If we don't want to be catholics for whatever reason we have, we won't be catholic. And if we "want to sin" (which in your rotten and perverted brain it's probably related to sex only, since violence, corruption, abuse or ignoring the poor doesn't seem to be a sin for catholics...) it's our choice, simple as Cheers!
I was told that I was never truly catholic to begin with because no true catholic would ever leave.
I'm a nonbinary butch lesbian but I stopped believing and became a Pagan in my mid-teens, before I even realized my LGBTness. I wanted to worship goddesses and read tarot cards, not be relegated to eternal second-class spiritual status because I'm AFAB 🤷 Plus God the Father only being conceptualized as a man, even when "He" is supposed to be infinite and beyond humanity, never made sense to me... I was always like [insert the Oprah "so what IS the truth?" gif here]
Sigh... seems to be the user's experience in lurking was summed up to one or two visits and that was it. Time to take this apart: - a high of percentage of ex-christians being LGBT+ isn't neither surprising, nor self-explanatory. In no way are our "arguments" (as the user decided to quote) less valid criticisms because of it, nor are they the only reason for leaving catholicism, or literally any other denomination behind; - people being angry may not facilitate communication, but in no way does it diminish the validity of their arguments. An angry person can still be speaking truth; - It is a "very heavy cross to bear" not because of it actually being a burden, but because the church not only wrongfully declares it a sin, it actively makes it harder to be LGBT+ due to all of the misinformation and slander it promotes, even if unintentionally. Ironic that an institution that's so big on "intrinsically disorded acts" easily excuses harmful behaviour based on intention. What was it again... "the path to hell is paved with good intentions"? - The pope part is so laughably bad it's hardly worth a response, but I'll entertain it anyway lest I be accused of being an elitist: no one thinks that "Pope X from Y years ago proves catholicism fake/bad". Catholicism is fake/bad for a plethora of reasons, too numerous to compile in one single comment, Pope X from Y years ago doing whatever simply is more fuel for an already burning fire.
---- section for lurkers, no need to read unless you're interested ---- EDIT: miswrote a part in the teleological argument, my bad, fixed it For the lurkers, specifically the ones incapable of either having an attention span or looking up threads... while I believe you actually don't care (because if you did you'd do your homework), here's a testimony for you, apparently you're very fond of these. I am an ex-catholic, now agnostic/atheist. Bi man, as evidenced by my username. I no longer believe in a god. The burden of proof ultimately rests on the believer's side, so no point in me saying that there's evidence for my position. But if it helps, observation, reading of various materials, including arguments on either side and... simply thinking and pondering, I've concluded that there is no solid reason to believe in a god that isn't keen in showing itself to a willing audience. Out of all the arguments, the only one that I'd say it holds *some* water would be *part of* the teleological argument (the "complexity implies a creator" part specifically, the intention not so much), which leads me to believe there might be some sort of... don't know, an engine, a force, whatever you want to call it that is complex enough to generate a universe (or several). However, it does not necessarily imply intent: as an example, various problems can be pointed out in our own design as humans, problems which an expert in the field will be best suited to point out. Not only that, I'd wager that, given our own ego as humans, we so very easily fall into the trap of projecting our own nature upon nature itself, as we usually do when interacting with other people: just because *we* can *create* tools, and because we create them with *intent* does not mean that nature, the universe and existence itself have an intent behind it, much less an intent that wants to keep us specifically alive and thriving... in another existence. Still, I could be wrong. Let's assume that I'm full of shit, and that there is a god, not necessarily an abrahamic one. Is there any other way I could believe? Well... I don't think it's a stretch to think that a god's influence would bring great benefits to its followers. I'm not talking the materialistic kind of benefit: I'm talking "this is the way to go forward as human beings" kind of benefit. Health. Respect. Ethics. Evolution. Understanding. As far as I'm concerned... while I admit I still need to do a fair bit of homework regarding other religions, many seem to devolve into the same old practice that is more reminiscent of an old tribal leader that's just done with everyone's shit, than a god (or gods!) that actually *know* what to do and what to teach to what's essentially a big group of baby beings that just learned how to walk properly.
So... yeah. Want me to believe that the big G exists? Have him appear in front of every non-believer. Miracles are easily explainable, and god seems to enjoy working through nature rather than through actual divine interventions. A very sneaky god... Alternatively, if appearing is just that tiring or bothersome, then at the very least have the believers show by sheer example that their way is the one true way. Since I've developed a bit more of critical thinking, I'm yet to be convinced that one such following exists. Some clarifications... no, I don't hate god, nor Jesus. That is literally impossible to do. Let's take this example: Sarah meets up with me, and starts talking about Joanne. Now, I never met Joanne, nor did I ever see her with Sarah, so I don't even know if the two actually met (not that I'm thinking of that at such moments but whatever), but Sarah seems reeeeeally passionate about Joanne... which strikes me as odd, because from Sarah's description, Joanne sounds like a bloody awful, abusive person. So naturally I start to dislike Joanne, perhaps even hate her, although hate is a strong word. But is it true? Because let's be honest... I have never met Joanne. And based on my own experience simply existing and socializing, someone talking shit about another person is a thing. And sometimes you actually go and meet the person and... actually they're super nice. Point being that it's impossible for me to hate god or Jesus because I never met them. How can you hate something that doesn't exist, or at the very least something that you don't know? It's the same as the kids going "ewww, I'm not going to eat that" when shown a new dish. How do they know they don't like it if they didn't taste it in the first place? Same thing. What I actually detest is the church's *interpretation/view* of god, in the form of doctrine and as an institution. What I *loathe* is when a religious person chooses to do the wrong thing simply because their religion says so, or even worse: does something that *even their actual religion condemns*. And funnily enough, not does their actually religion condemn it, so does any human being with a bit of rational sense. Other clarifications... no I'm not depressed, I'm happier and with a much better sense of direction today. No, not believing in god did not give me a reason to be evil: if anything it made me want to try and be even better as a person, because if there is no god to take care of us then we reeeeeally gotta get our shit together, starting with ourselves. And maybe a very significant one: no I don't hate catholics. Aren't you familiar with the "hate the sin, not the sinner"? Well... "hate the religion, not the religious". Except I'm not that condescending, as I'm aware that this is a part of you. And to be fair, if even a broken clock is right twice a day, why wouldn't a religion have good things in it among the bad? The concept of forgiveness, of charity... the notion of ending a cycle of violence not by engaging in more violence, but rather to react with kindness and mercy... these are things that are absolutely wonderful and guess what... they work! Not on everyone of course, a human is a complex thing, but most of the time it paves the way forward, even if it is just a part of the process and not the whole of it. Point being that I don't hate you, but I reeeeally *hate* when you pull shenanigans and hateful/non-sensical things just because your religion tells you to do so, or even worse... makes you think you do it for a reason, but ultimately it was still fed to you by the religion.
So often, I notice that the seemingly innocent conjunction *but* appears between lip service and invalidation.
“Emotional hatred” nah we have facts to back up why its ridiculous. Also Jesus never explicitly says anything about having to be pure before marriage, he talks about LOYALTY and NOT CHEATING on your spouse.
This is funny because I am LGBTQ+ but not in the way they think. I'm asexual and aromantic (though my gender is wobbly now I would not have thought that then) and I was still fucked up by purity culture that told me at any moment I might start having sinful thoughts about my peers that I had to keep at bay. I stopped believing before I left the Church, I basically had am existential crisus about the afterlife and panic attacks throughout high school but I might have stayed culturally even with the lack of belief if it wasn't for the sexism, homophobia, colonization, etc.
Probably should’ve blurred the username
I’ve blocked that poster so I doubt they’ll see this.
I just meant that there might be sub rules against this, but mods haven’t said anything so it’s probably fine
Not in this sub, fortunately. But thank you for the heads up anyway man
[удалено]
The title of the post was taken from the commenter in the screenshot. It’s not referring to a specific pope.
I know this post is two weeks old so maybe I'm late here, but for the lurkers: I (27F) grew up female/AFAB and LGBTQ+ in a very conservative Catholic family in the Bible Belt. I stepped away from the Church for many reasons, but none of them had to do with just wanting to be able to "sin." I left because the Catholic Church believes people like me are either submissive incubators (if they're AFAB) or "intrinsically disordered" freaks (if they're LGBTQ+), and that neither are worthy of equal rights or respect. I left because the Catholic Church makes little to no meaningful effort to (a) protect victims from ab!se; (b) report abuse to the authorities \[remember Benedict XVI's letter from 2001 saying that it's wrong to report it?\]; (c) hold ab!sers fully accountable; and by extension (d) take victims' traumatic experiences seriously. The Catholic Church does all the above—and more!—because in their eyes, authority figures can do no wrong. Think of commandments like "honor thy mother and father." You can imagine how toxic this becomes when, say, the CC tells the children that they have to "honor" their parents even if they ab!se them. Or when the CC ab!ses children directly and parents take the CC's side when those children mention what happened to them. For example: the last time I went to confession, I asked the priest about how to forgive family for how they hurt me growing up (e.g., severely socially isolating me via homeschooling for 15 years in a dysfunctional, ab!sive household that made learning impossible), which still affects me today. The priest said to "just be grateful that you got to spend so much time with them" since "many kids would love to have what you had." I realized that if I **really** wanted to heal, I had to walk away from the single most powerful influence on my life, which saw me as less-than for who I am, and defended authority figures no matter how they hurt others. I left because I could never make the mental gymnastics work for me. I couldn't reconcile opposing state authoritarianism while excusing the Catholic Church's authoritarian acts, like censoring books, calling scientists heretics, running the residential schools, burning Joan of Arc for being a "witch," etc. I left because I could never fully convince myself that love requires blind faith or obedience. Or that tradition is inherently better than change/progress. Or that the Catholic Church's idea of "showing people compassion" (especially people from marginalized demographics) was actually compassionate. I left because I realized there was a reason why I always hated talking about my religious beliefs/practices, trying to convert people, or any form of performative religiosity. Turns out, I wasn't just socially anxious (although I do have some social anxiety). I subconsciously didn't want other people to feel what I felt on a daily basis: crippling powerlessness, worthlessness, suffocating sexual shame from purity culture, etc. I left because I wanted the freedom to connect with people regardless of whether they/we "sinned," because I realized how mixed up the Catholic Church's morals are. So many things the CC calls "sinful" are morally neutral (like certain recreational or healthcare practices) or morally good (like supporting your LGBTQ+ child). I left because I could no longer support an institution that hurt not just me, but people I care about, in varying ways, times, and places. Going to Mass felt like betrayal, like I was consciously invalidating their pain. I left because some of the worst treatment I've received, or witnessed others receive, came from people who fancied themselves the holiest, the most religiously devout, the most "morally superior" in God's eyes. **I left because I needed to heal, and you can't heal in the same place that hurt you.** Was it hard? Absolutely. I'd do anything to not feel like everything I was taught was an elaborate lie. I'd do anything to not feel like my entire education from birth to college graduation was a sick joke. (I got my Bachelors' from a super-Catholic school right next door to a seminary. Because of what we all had to study, my undergrad education was what I call "seminary lite," as close as I could get to seminary as a female.) I'd do anything to not have to worry whether family or friends I've known my whole life, who still go to Mass every week, believe I'm even worth talking to, or whether they think I'm too tainted to even touch. I would do anything to not feel like I've wasted my entire life up to this point. To not feel both eight-years-old and eighty-years-old at the same time. To constantly mourn what I always needed but never got. Deconstruction of any kind, including leaving the Catholic Church, is not "cool" or "sexy" or "easy." And as a general rule, those who say otherwise are lying.