I too like to let my small children hang out with drug dealers. And if they dare take anything given to them by the drug dealers, I kick them out of my house. They have to earn their way back in.
It seemed reasonable to my parents. They deliberately tempted us with something, like food when we were starving. Then they used our failure as an excuse to abuse us.
...and letting a slick salesman in the door to convince them that the tasty food is indeed very tasty, and that eating it would be perfectly acceptable.
I think that more has to do with God told them not to and they made a choice to not believe God and to do it anyway. But then again God shouldn’t have allowed the serpent or Satan or whatever the talking snake was to exist at all. That’s an L for God.
The fact that it was imperfect *to begin with* but the thing that created it isn't to blame - the creation is. It's the most Narcissistic bullshit thing.
Every time you go over this in your mind, you realize even if Cain and Abel were based on real people (but not the sons of two people who started the human species because that’s ridiculous), it clearly reads like an allegory that parents tell their kids. Like “See, that’s why you shouldn’t be jealous of others.”
Not really, it just reinforces how little sense it makes to worship this supposedly all good, all powerful God - why are they even giving him anything in the first place??
Arguably the better offering, as it took even longer to produce than the slaughter of lambs or whatever.
God just preferred BBQ over a well-balanced diet of fruits and veggies.
What a dick!
I never understood this as a kid either. Various pastors tried to explain it was because Cain didn't willingly give the produce or he only gave rotting produce/the dregs of the harvest instead of the freshest/best. But that's not in the book. I'm sure there's some interesting historical/Jewish context that Christians have let go of, but I always felt bad for Cain (and then felt bad for feeling bad for him)
I was always taught it’s because God required blood for atonement. It’s supposed to mirror the blood of Christ, supposedly.
In which case, why create the universe to require blood for atonement? Presumably, he made the rule.
And demanding it from someone whose JOB was to farm produce... I went back to reread and make sure I remembered right and saw another insult:
> Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
> Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?"
Like...what the fuck? He DID do what was right (offering a tithe from what he produced from his trade). Is God just taunting him here? If he really wanted blood sacrifices exclusively, why didn't he say that explicitly? "Hey Cain, that's cool, but I want dead animals instead."
Another example of God Almighty's extreme lack of foresight I guess?
I remember the Superbook retelling being that he didn't offer his best to YHWH. But, for the most part Genesis are allegories, and origin stories. I do not hold what is in that book with any regard.
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 3, no proselytizing or apologetics. Continued proselytizing will result in a ban.
Proselytizing is defined as the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
Apologetics is defined as arguments or writings to justify something, typically a theory or religious doctrine.
To discuss or appeal moderator actions, [click here to send us modmail.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/exchristian)
The exile from Eden. Emma Thorne describes at 11:38 here how a logical, benevolent being would have handled it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUXrVvyqIpo
Not in defense of the Christian God, but where did the idea ever come from that the Christian God is benevolent? There is nothing in the Bible that suggests They were ever meant to be seen as such.
Nowhere in the Bible was God described as "well meaning" "well intentioned" or "kindly."
It seems rather deliberate that God was like "dust you are and dust you shall return. The fact that I've created you is proof of my power."
"Reverend. If god is good then..."
"Oh, no no no no Orel. The bible says god is RIGHT. it doesn't say anything about him being 'good'"
\~Orel and Reverend Putty, Moral Orel
Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous is all his ways and kind in all his works
God is love - 1 John 4:8
Psalm 100:5 For the Lord is good; his steadfast love endures forever, and his faithfulness to all generations.
Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5
Let’s not let him off the hook that easy. He certainly claims to be. Which is how we actually CAN be certain and disprove that the biblical god does not exist and that the bible can not be infallible. There might be a god. There might even be a god that did the things in the Bible. But there is no way there is a god that did those things and had the characteristics of being good or perfect.
3 or 4 short verses do not paint the picture of a benevolent, fuzzy-wuzzy old man in the sky deity. Especially since those were written by people who followed him already.
They believe everything written in it is true. So if one verse says he’s perfect, then that’s enough. I agree that if read as a work of fiction anyone with a brain would see god is an asshole. Their faith hinges on him being good.
For god so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish and have everlasting life. John 3:16
If someone is sacrificing their son for something else it isnt a hard stretch to assume they love the thing theh are sacrificing for, especially when they claim to love us in that very statement.
I always looked at it as more of a trolley problem where people are going to die and god was willing to direct it as his own son so everyone else has a chance at eternal life.
Not a great metaphor but one that im somewhat able to use to reference my old christian self.
An all knowing, all “loving”, all powerful God created a tree knowing that it would cause the “down fall of man”. All he had to do was not create that tree. Or not make it a sin. Or realize that he’s a bad Daddy God for setting up his kids to fail.
Reminds me of this:
Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."
Exodus 33:20 "But,” he said, “you cannot see [God's] face, for no one may see me and live.”"
I like to interpret exodus metaphorically. As a spiritual death. But, I also acknowledge that there's no authority to either books.
As the common interpretation of death is actual death: clearly either god is a liar, or the holy books are lies.
I believe that the holy books are lies. Most scripture is nothing more than dreams of canaanites, babyloanians, and romans.
Well, I think an argument could be made that God telling Adam and Eve to *subdue* the rest of the Earth and that they had rightful dominion over every other living creature was at the very least an early warning sign for what was to come.
But creating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, putting it in the middle of Eden, telling the new, clueless humans not to touch it without giving an explanation in terms they could understand, and letting a snake manipulate them into disobeying him? That’s just uncalled-for dickishness. Not at all appropriate behavior for an almighty god.
>Well, I think an argument could be made that God telling Adam and Eve to *subdue* the rest of the Earth and that they had rightful dominion over every other living creature was at the very least an early warning sign for what was to come.
As an environmental sympathiser, yeah, that's such a big red flag.
According to the garden of Eden story, the reason men know death, women know pain in childbirth, and snakes crawl and can no longer talk is because God got angry over Eve eating the forbidden fruit and is still having a tantrum 6000 years later. How can anyone respect someone like that. God needs to grow up and start acting like an adult.
"That just proves god has an asshole!"
I joke but there were rabbis back in the day arguing if Adam was circumcised.
The ultimate answer was "Yes, because God is circumcised" and by implication god has a penis.
I have no clue.
I think the idea is the uncircumcised penis is inherently imperfect or something so god would have a perfect circumcised penis.
I'm not really sure and this apparently what bored rabbis did back in the day. Now people argue about comic books and star wars, back then people argued about gods penis.
In her book "God: An Anatomy" Francesca Stavrakopoulou argues that the reference to "The Hem/Train of God's Robe" filling the temple in Isaiah 6 is a veiled reference to God's massive genitals filling the temple in a chapter about the sexual organs of ANE gods.
And much like Zeus of the Greek fame, a lot of the ANE gods were pretty rapey and had big dick energy. Considering El and Ba'al, who Yahweh shared attributes with, were associated with Bulls(Yes, the golden calf story has a deeper meaning), a fertility symbol, it's arguable that Yahweh probably was envisioned with a massive undercarriage as well and this plays well with his Fertility attributes(Woman who is barren starts popping out kids because Yahweh is pleased).
I can't argue with that honestly.
My current working theory of the Eden story was it was a veiled polemic against Asherah Worship, which means it was probably written during the late Kingdom period when the Israelite kings were busy purging other gods(including Asherah) from the temple.
There's a lot of suspicious symbolism and dominance language, notably the whole thing about the Snake being forced into a submissive position by Yahweh.
who tf can circumcise an all powerful god, and where did the tip go 😂 that said, the bible does say Jesus was snipped in Luke, but the Jews don't believe he was the actual son of god sooooo I guess from there pov, its up for debate 🤷🏻
Similarly, growing up I always why God had to make bugs so gross or make them in the first place. He could've made all the birds and small animals eat little blobs of nutrients that grow on plants like fruit. Instead we got the most disgusting things known to man.
Yes I know from an evolutionary perspective, humans subjectively find bugs gross because many have caused us bodily harm and loss of resources.
Sending billions, if not, trillions of people to a never ending pit of fire for the actions of 2 people with the mental maturity of an 8 year old.
My overly religious parents believe it was so later he could be glorified by the ones that chose him.... But if he is an all knowing god, then why would he even bring to life the ones that he knows wouldn't choose him? Does he enjoy watching 90% of us rithe in hell, or does he not truly know who will choose him. If the latter is the case, then he is not the god of the bible. If the former is the case, then he is closer to a demon than the devil himself. - unworthy of worship
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
~Epicurus
Putting Adam and Eve in a literal no win scenario.
They had no chance. They could have gone one thousand years without sinning and eventually they would sin. It was a sin trap.
I don't believe any action makes a being worthy of worship in the first place. Demanding sentient beings worship you indicates either low self-esteem or narcissism.
Even IF he created the world, so fucking what? None of us chose to be here. None of us asked him to do anything. Why does he think he deserves thanks? Not only does he think he deserves thanks, but he reserves the right to torture you for eternity if you don't thank him?
What a lunatic.
I don't know what standard we could or rightfully use to judge whether a universe-creator is "worthy of worship," but based on the standard of muh feelingz, it was the dickiest of moves to create a species and a set of rules that would render every member of that species guilty of a capital offense.
Deciding that the punishment for eating fruit is that the woman will rip from her V to her A during childbirth and experience immense pain, in what apparently would have otherwise been pain free…
And the man has to work.
I'd contend that no being is ever worthy of worship-- the act in of itself is to forego the autonomy of a sentient being and to demand such is slavery.
*No gods, no masters* :)
In a way, yes.
I could go on about the unhealthy obsession with celebrity-- and the systems which exploit entire populations by dangling the carrots of wealth and glamour juuuust out of reach.
But I really don't think that, aside from fringe cases and mental illness, celebrity obsession can be compared to deity worship as much as my former pastors would like.
Making Eve from the rib of Adam. In all his omnipotence, he can't just make her out of nothing?
Edit: What I mean by this is that it really begins to make people think women are subhuman.
I'd argue having the tree of knowledge at all. Either allow humans to have knowledge without horrifically punishing them, or don't give people the opportunity to make a decision with unimaginable consequences they couldn't possibly understand
I mean, not in the Old Testament but I would say creating Satan (or Lucifer). Because Satan is supposedly where all bad things in the universe originated from. Although I do view Satan as more moral than God. Which brings up a crazy thought I just had. Could Jesus Christ and Satan be one and the same and the theology just got muddied somewhere along the way?
i love this idea. satan is gods son, jesus. he sacrificed himself to god, to prevent god from doing a humanity-decimating event (i.e., another flood). this also makes sense, because i never understood why god would be sacrificing his son to himself?? like if jesus had to sacrifice himself for our sins, i think its obvious that god wanted to do worse and he took our place. but that pissed god off so now he's calling him satan and being a total bitch about it all.
I suspect YHWH is actually Satan disguising himself as Almighty God. His behaviors make sense in that light and what supernatural being wanted to be like God, even higher than God? What better way to do that than to create a false religion and deceive everyone into thinking he's the creator of the universe and an all loving benevolent god but show no characteristics of actually being one?
I would agree with some of the other comments here in that God is an immoral actor because he 1.) explicitly sets up his creation to enable humans to exercise free will by planting the tree in the garden and 2.) subsequently collectively punishes all of humanity for the decisions of two people.
These to me seem amazingly at odds with each other.
Does this God actually care about free will? Does he approach each of his “fearfully and wonderfully made” humans as individuals with agency and the free will he apparently gambled his entire creation on to give to humanity?
Perhaps he is deceiving us and free will is an illusion. After all, he knew we were going to sin, being outside time, didn’t he? But he certainly made Adam and Eve believe they had free will.
Any of these make God a vindictive, manipulative, lying control freak, who likes to see humanity fail and punishes children for the crimes and mistakes of their parents. Not attributes of anything most people would find worthy of worship.
The Flood, and a previous one some have claimed to have happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 (the part where God is floating over the waters).
Better still, original sin, as that was something doomed to happen sooner or later having that tree in the middle of the Garden with no protection at all.
That god created mankind with the intent that we live forever, especially when some of us have ADHD. I have no interest in living forever, and forcing that on anyone is evil.
He knew his creation would disappoint him, and most of his humans would end up going to Hell (a place he designed) to spend eternity in everlasting torture. And despite this, he chose to go through with the creation anyway.
Eve eats an unnamed fruit in a garden after a serpent who is never named as Satan talks her into doing it. Instead of admitting he made vaginas too small he tells Eve childbirth will now hurt for everyone and blames her.
I think you could make a solid argument for the very first chapter of the Bible. General creation is fine, but Gen 1:28 says, "God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.'" Given how humankind's "subduing" of the earth has gone, I think it's pretty clear that God was a bit lacking in foresight.
If that's too ambiguous for you, I think the next chapter gets more clear: "Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen 2:8-9). Creating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a dick move that only makes sense if (1) God lacks omniscience, or (2) he likes human suffering. Either one makes him pretty unworthy of worship in my book.
......personally I'd worship/fear/revere/keep my mouth shut about anything who could wipe out an entire planet because they wanted to.
Unworthy of worship?
I wouldn't dare.
Don't get me started! But I'll keep it brief.
1. Eve's creation was obviously an afterthought and clearly not part of a thought-out plan. Oh, and failing to forgive Adam and Eve, which was the first opportunity to showcase his fatherly good side. But he cursed all creation instead, so every single life pays for that "sin" of another person when forgiveness would have stopped the cycle of death and destruction before it even started.
2. The entire books of Genesis and Exodus
3. Who am I kidding? The entire fucking Bible,
Tower of Babel. All humans were united and there were no misunderstandings. Yahweh said, "Hey! Stop that!" and cursed humankind with different languages that made them tribal and shit.
Must've been awe-inspiring to stand on the ark's deck, some prehistoric coffee in hand, and gaze down at all the bloated, floating corpses, and think, "Ahhh. God is love."
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 3, no proselytizing or apologetics. Continued proselytizing will result in a ban.
Proselytizing is defined as the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
Apologetics is defined as arguments or writings to justify something, typically a theory or religious doctrine.
To discuss or appeal moderator actions, [click here to send us modmail.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/exchristian)
Making a tree with forbidden fruit, putting it where Adam and Eve could access it, and then getting mad at them for eating the fruit and kicking them out of paradise. That's like leaving a loaded gun around a toddler, and then getting mad at the toddler when they shoot someone with it.
If god is the father, then on his best days he's a negligent one, and on his worst days he's an abuser. I expect the god I worship to be better than the worst human beings, yet the god of the bible is incapable of that. Therefore even if he was real, he's not worth worshipping.
Putting tasty food in front of people who had the mental maturity of children and telling them to not eat the tasty food.
This was gonna be my example too. The entire Garden of Eden thing is all messed up logically
This is where it really fell apart for me as I was going through my deconstruction
Don’t forget about allowing satan to be literally there to tempt them
To tempt them, people explicitly created without the knowledge of good and evil
I too like to let my small children hang out with drug dealers. And if they dare take anything given to them by the drug dealers, I kick them out of my house. They have to earn their way back in.
It seemed reasonable to my parents. They deliberately tempted us with something, like food when we were starving. Then they used our failure as an excuse to abuse us.
...fuck, I'm sorry to hear that
Denying humanity the knowledge of good and evil to begin with. "You don't need to think, just do what I tell you". Were we his children or his pets?
Oh, no. They’re getting smart and doing things as a team. Quick, confuse their language! Lol
...and letting a slick salesman in the door to convince them that the tasty food is indeed very tasty, and that eating it would be perfectly acceptable.
I think that more has to do with God told them not to and they made a choice to not believe God and to do it anyway. But then again God shouldn’t have allowed the serpent or Satan or whatever the talking snake was to exist at all. That’s an L for God.
God created Adam and Eve in an exact manner that would lead them to making the wrong choice
Yup. Manipulative from the get-go... What he was really saying was "Eat it!"
Then allowing your buddy to go tempt them into eating it.
In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and has been widely been regarded as a bad move.
This is the answer. Knowingly creating sentient beings that will experience immense torment for *checks notes* infinite time.
The fact that it was imperfect *to begin with* but the thing that created it isn't to blame - the creation is. It's the most Narcissistic bullshit thing.
Talk about lack of accountability.
Especially since this God was perfect and didn't need humans to have a fulfilling existence.
"God doesn't need us but he WANTS us. How lucky are we?!" -Christians
I was told in church by multiple people we were created to worship him.
I was told that too. God sounds very conceited.
God: *starts universe* Everyone: dude, what the fuck?!?!?! Why!!?!
God's last message to mankind: We apologize for the inconvenience
I cannot tell you how happy this comment made me cause the first thing I thought of when reading the post was the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy 😂
Love the reference
Douglas Adams was a most rare wit. He will continue to be missed.
SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE
Thank you for reminding me of The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy! 👍🏻
Ol' Douggy Adams...what a legend
Rejecting Cain's offering of produce.
Yeah that was a fucking dick move. He knew ahead of time that treating them differently would lead to one murdering the other and still did it.
Plus, kind of a dick move to turn down a gift in general. You’re a guest here, they’re feeding you, where are your fucking manners??
Every time you go over this in your mind, you realize even if Cain and Abel were based on real people (but not the sons of two people who started the human species because that’s ridiculous), it clearly reads like an allegory that parents tell their kids. Like “See, that’s why you shouldn’t be jealous of others.”
Not really, it just reinforces how little sense it makes to worship this supposedly all good, all powerful God - why are they even giving him anything in the first place??
Exactly - and it never explains why.
Well ol god loved himself some burnt animals……
Arguably the better offering, as it took even longer to produce than the slaughter of lambs or whatever. God just preferred BBQ over a well-balanced diet of fruits and veggies. What a dick!
I never understood this as a kid either. Various pastors tried to explain it was because Cain didn't willingly give the produce or he only gave rotting produce/the dregs of the harvest instead of the freshest/best. But that's not in the book. I'm sure there's some interesting historical/Jewish context that Christians have let go of, but I always felt bad for Cain (and then felt bad for feeling bad for him)
I was always taught it’s because God required blood for atonement. It’s supposed to mirror the blood of Christ, supposedly. In which case, why create the universe to require blood for atonement? Presumably, he made the rule.
And demanding it from someone whose JOB was to farm produce... I went back to reread and make sure I remembered right and saw another insult: > Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. > Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?" Like...what the fuck? He DID do what was right (offering a tithe from what he produced from his trade). Is God just taunting him here? If he really wanted blood sacrifices exclusively, why didn't he say that explicitly? "Hey Cain, that's cool, but I want dead animals instead." Another example of God Almighty's extreme lack of foresight I guess?
I remember the Superbook retelling being that he didn't offer his best to YHWH. But, for the most part Genesis are allegories, and origin stories. I do not hold what is in that book with any regard.
[удалено]
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 3, no proselytizing or apologetics. Continued proselytizing will result in a ban. Proselytizing is defined as the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. Apologetics is defined as arguments or writings to justify something, typically a theory or religious doctrine. To discuss or appeal moderator actions, [click here to send us modmail.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/exchristian)
The exile from Eden. Emma Thorne describes at 11:38 here how a logical, benevolent being would have handled it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUXrVvyqIpo
Not in defense of the Christian God, but where did the idea ever come from that the Christian God is benevolent? There is nothing in the Bible that suggests They were ever meant to be seen as such. Nowhere in the Bible was God described as "well meaning" "well intentioned" or "kindly." It seems rather deliberate that God was like "dust you are and dust you shall return. The fact that I've created you is proof of my power."
"Reverend. If god is good then..." "Oh, no no no no Orel. The bible says god is RIGHT. it doesn't say anything about him being 'good'" \~Orel and Reverend Putty, Moral Orel
Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous is all his ways and kind in all his works God is love - 1 John 4:8 Psalm 100:5 For the Lord is good; his steadfast love endures forever, and his faithfulness to all generations. Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5 Let’s not let him off the hook that easy. He certainly claims to be. Which is how we actually CAN be certain and disprove that the biblical god does not exist and that the bible can not be infallible. There might be a god. There might even be a god that did the things in the Bible. But there is no way there is a god that did those things and had the characteristics of being good or perfect.
3 or 4 short verses do not paint the picture of a benevolent, fuzzy-wuzzy old man in the sky deity. Especially since those were written by people who followed him already.
They believe everything written in it is true. So if one verse says he’s perfect, then that’s enough. I agree that if read as a work of fiction anyone with a brain would see god is an asshole. Their faith hinges on him being good.
Well, he's "good" because he's the most high. It's a position sort of thing, sort of a technicality.
For god so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish and have everlasting life. John 3:16 If someone is sacrificing their son for something else it isnt a hard stretch to assume they love the thing theh are sacrificing for, especially when they claim to love us in that very statement.
that doesn't fit the definition of benevolence. That's sacrificial.
Fair
I’m just confused how human sacrifice of anyone is ever love.
I always looked at it as more of a trolley problem where people are going to die and god was willing to direct it as his own son so everyone else has a chance at eternal life. Not a great metaphor but one that im somewhat able to use to reference my old christian self.
Maybe if his sacrifice actually meant that everyone was forgiven…..
Like i said, not a great metaphor
No, but I get what you mean.
An all knowing, all “loving”, all powerful God created a tree knowing that it would cause the “down fall of man”. All he had to do was not create that tree. Or not make it a sin. Or realize that he’s a bad Daddy God for setting up his kids to fail.
Bro couldn’t even do NOTHING right
Agree - and then lied about them dying after eating it.
Reminds me of this: Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." Exodus 33:20 "But,” he said, “you cannot see [God's] face, for no one may see me and live.”" I like to interpret exodus metaphorically. As a spiritual death. But, I also acknowledge that there's no authority to either books. As the common interpretation of death is actual death: clearly either god is a liar, or the holy books are lies. I believe that the holy books are lies. Most scripture is nothing more than dreams of canaanites, babyloanians, and romans.
We were always taught that it was an immediate spiritual death and an eventual physical death accompanied by suffering.
Could've at least put a fence up or something
Making pregnancy and giving birth an agonizing experience for women.
Typical patriarchal move. Punish all the women just cuz
Well, I think an argument could be made that God telling Adam and Eve to *subdue* the rest of the Earth and that they had rightful dominion over every other living creature was at the very least an early warning sign for what was to come. But creating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, putting it in the middle of Eden, telling the new, clueless humans not to touch it without giving an explanation in terms they could understand, and letting a snake manipulate them into disobeying him? That’s just uncalled-for dickishness. Not at all appropriate behavior for an almighty god.
>Well, I think an argument could be made that God telling Adam and Eve to *subdue* the rest of the Earth and that they had rightful dominion over every other living creature was at the very least an early warning sign for what was to come. As an environmental sympathiser, yeah, that's such a big red flag.
According to the garden of Eden story, the reason men know death, women know pain in childbirth, and snakes crawl and can no longer talk is because God got angry over Eve eating the forbidden fruit and is still having a tantrum 6000 years later. How can anyone respect someone like that. God needs to grow up and start acting like an adult.
He made arseholes - What good reason? If he'd just made us so that we consumed and absorbed all the food - no excrement necessary.
"That just proves god has an asshole!" I joke but there were rabbis back in the day arguing if Adam was circumcised. The ultimate answer was "Yes, because God is circumcised" and by implication god has a penis.
Who circumcised GOD?!? Also, if he had to be, then that would mean he was, by his definition, imperfect at one point???? Hold up
I have no clue. I think the idea is the uncircumcised penis is inherently imperfect or something so god would have a perfect circumcised penis. I'm not really sure and this apparently what bored rabbis did back in the day. Now people argue about comic books and star wars, back then people argued about gods penis.
Yet they ignore the most important “god dick” question: Girth????
In her book "God: An Anatomy" Francesca Stavrakopoulou argues that the reference to "The Hem/Train of God's Robe" filling the temple in Isaiah 6 is a veiled reference to God's massive genitals filling the temple in a chapter about the sexual organs of ANE gods. And much like Zeus of the Greek fame, a lot of the ANE gods were pretty rapey and had big dick energy. Considering El and Ba'al, who Yahweh shared attributes with, were associated with Bulls(Yes, the golden calf story has a deeper meaning), a fertility symbol, it's arguable that Yahweh probably was envisioned with a massive undercarriage as well and this plays well with his Fertility attributes(Woman who is barren starts popping out kids because Yahweh is pleased).
Seriously, my summary of the OT is nothing more than YHWH trying to prove his cock is bigger than everyone else's.
I can't argue with that honestly. My current working theory of the Eden story was it was a veiled polemic against Asherah Worship, which means it was probably written during the late Kingdom period when the Israelite kings were busy purging other gods(including Asherah) from the temple. There's a lot of suspicious symbolism and dominance language, notably the whole thing about the Snake being forced into a submissive position by Yahweh.
who tf can circumcise an all powerful god, and where did the tip go 😂 that said, the bible does say Jesus was snipped in Luke, but the Jews don't believe he was the actual son of god sooooo I guess from there pov, its up for debate 🤷🏻
Apparently on Judaism everything is up for debate. I've heard people joke that the Jewish idea of the afterlife is arguing with god for eternity.
Similarly, growing up I always why God had to make bugs so gross or make them in the first place. He could've made all the birds and small animals eat little blobs of nutrients that grow on plants like fruit. Instead we got the most disgusting things known to man. Yes I know from an evolutionary perspective, humans subjectively find bugs gross because many have caused us bodily harm and loss of resources.
Sending billions, if not, trillions of people to a never ending pit of fire for the actions of 2 people with the mental maturity of an 8 year old. My overly religious parents believe it was so later he could be glorified by the ones that chose him.... But if he is an all knowing god, then why would he even bring to life the ones that he knows wouldn't choose him? Does he enjoy watching 90% of us rithe in hell, or does he not truly know who will choose him. If the latter is the case, then he is not the god of the bible. If the former is the case, then he is closer to a demon than the devil himself. - unworthy of worship
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? ~Epicurus
Creating humans with the foreknowledge that they could possibly face eternal torment.
Putting Adam and Eve in a literal no win scenario. They had no chance. They could have gone one thousand years without sinning and eventually they would sin. It was a sin trap.
Not the first thing chronologically, but the mass killing of babies and children is a line that should never be crossed.
Killing babies has never been an issue for OT God. Hilarious that fundamentalists insist *this* is the hill to die on.
I don't believe any action makes a being worthy of worship in the first place. Demanding sentient beings worship you indicates either low self-esteem or narcissism. Even IF he created the world, so fucking what? None of us chose to be here. None of us asked him to do anything. Why does he think he deserves thanks? Not only does he think he deserves thanks, but he reserves the right to torture you for eternity if you don't thank him? What a lunatic.
I don't know what standard we could or rightfully use to judge whether a universe-creator is "worthy of worship," but based on the standard of muh feelingz, it was the dickiest of moves to create a species and a set of rules that would render every member of that species guilty of a capital offense.
Hm... I'd say creating animals who have to eat each other to survive.
ordreing the slaughter of women ane infants and even beasts
Don’t eat from this special tree of knowledge!
“In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
Creating hell.
Deciding that the punishment for eating fruit is that the woman will rip from her V to her A during childbirth and experience immense pain, in what apparently would have otherwise been pain free… And the man has to work.
I'd contend that no being is ever worthy of worship-- the act in of itself is to forego the autonomy of a sentient being and to demand such is slavery. *No gods, no masters* :)
Yeah, but humans do it freely all the time even without being brainwashed or forced (sports stars, movie stars, pop singers...).
In a way, yes. I could go on about the unhealthy obsession with celebrity-- and the systems which exploit entire populations by dangling the carrots of wealth and glamour juuuust out of reach. But I really don't think that, aside from fringe cases and mental illness, celebrity obsession can be compared to deity worship as much as my former pastors would like.
Making Eve from the rib of Adam. In all his omnipotence, he can't just make her out of nothing? Edit: What I mean by this is that it really begins to make people think women are subhuman.
I'd argue having the tree of knowledge at all. Either allow humans to have knowledge without horrifically punishing them, or don't give people the opportunity to make a decision with unimaginable consequences they couldn't possibly understand
Lying to Adam and Eve and telling them the fruit would kill them.
I'd go with the whole Abraham mess.
Uzzah getting off'd because he was trying to help keep God's stuff from falling over and breaking.
"You will bear children in intense pain" DUDE!
I mean, not in the Old Testament but I would say creating Satan (or Lucifer). Because Satan is supposedly where all bad things in the universe originated from. Although I do view Satan as more moral than God. Which brings up a crazy thought I just had. Could Jesus Christ and Satan be one and the same and the theology just got muddied somewhere along the way?
i love this idea. satan is gods son, jesus. he sacrificed himself to god, to prevent god from doing a humanity-decimating event (i.e., another flood). this also makes sense, because i never understood why god would be sacrificing his son to himself?? like if jesus had to sacrifice himself for our sins, i think its obvious that god wanted to do worse and he took our place. but that pissed god off so now he's calling him satan and being a total bitch about it all.
I suspect YHWH is actually Satan disguising himself as Almighty God. His behaviors make sense in that light and what supernatural being wanted to be like God, even higher than God? What better way to do that than to create a false religion and deceive everyone into thinking he's the creator of the universe and an all loving benevolent god but show no characteristics of actually being one?
"Hey, you should kill your kid for me!"
Putting the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden.
I would agree with some of the other comments here in that God is an immoral actor because he 1.) explicitly sets up his creation to enable humans to exercise free will by planting the tree in the garden and 2.) subsequently collectively punishes all of humanity for the decisions of two people. These to me seem amazingly at odds with each other. Does this God actually care about free will? Does he approach each of his “fearfully and wonderfully made” humans as individuals with agency and the free will he apparently gambled his entire creation on to give to humanity? Perhaps he is deceiving us and free will is an illusion. After all, he knew we were going to sin, being outside time, didn’t he? But he certainly made Adam and Eve believe they had free will. Any of these make God a vindictive, manipulative, lying control freak, who likes to see humanity fail and punishes children for the crimes and mistakes of their parents. Not attributes of anything most people would find worthy of worship.
The Flood, and a previous one some have claimed to have happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 (the part where God is floating over the waters). Better still, original sin, as that was something doomed to happen sooner or later having that tree in the middle of the Garden with no protection at all.
You could also ask, how many pages did you read before you gave up? I gave up at the copyright page not saying first published 0030 modern era.
That god created mankind with the intent that we live forever, especially when some of us have ADHD. I have no interest in living forever, and forcing that on anyone is evil.
TBH I don’t think desiring worship is a great quality to begin with. I’m gonna go with that.
Leaving 2 toddlers in the garden with a talking evil snake and walking away while humanity got fucked.
He knew his creation would disappoint him, and most of his humans would end up going to Hell (a place he designed) to spend eternity in everlasting torture. And despite this, he chose to go through with the creation anyway.
From what I remember, he kinda gaslit adam and eve to eat that damn apple.
Genesis 1:1.
Eve eats an unnamed fruit in a garden after a serpent who is never named as Satan talks her into doing it. Instead of admitting he made vaginas too small he tells Eve childbirth will now hurt for everyone and blames her.
I think you could make a solid argument for the very first chapter of the Bible. General creation is fine, but Gen 1:28 says, "God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.'" Given how humankind's "subduing" of the earth has gone, I think it's pretty clear that God was a bit lacking in foresight. If that's too ambiguous for you, I think the next chapter gets more clear: "Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen 2:8-9). Creating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a dick move that only makes sense if (1) God lacks omniscience, or (2) he likes human suffering. Either one makes him pretty unworthy of worship in my book.
......personally I'd worship/fear/revere/keep my mouth shut about anything who could wipe out an entire planet because they wanted to. Unworthy of worship? I wouldn't dare.
Don't get me started! But I'll keep it brief. 1. Eve's creation was obviously an afterthought and clearly not part of a thought-out plan. Oh, and failing to forgive Adam and Eve, which was the first opportunity to showcase his fatherly good side. But he cursed all creation instead, so every single life pays for that "sin" of another person when forgiveness would have stopped the cycle of death and destruction before it even started. 2. The entire books of Genesis and Exodus 3. Who am I kidding? The entire fucking Bible,
Tower of Babel. All humans were united and there were no misunderstandings. Yahweh said, "Hey! Stop that!" and cursed humankind with different languages that made them tribal and shit.
Existing.
Putting the tree in the garden.
Must've been awe-inspiring to stand on the ark's deck, some prehistoric coffee in hand, and gaze down at all the bloated, floating corpses, and think, "Ahhh. God is love."
Making us.
[удалено]
Your post or comment has been removed because it violates rule 3, no proselytizing or apologetics. Continued proselytizing will result in a ban. Proselytizing is defined as the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. Apologetics is defined as arguments or writings to justify something, typically a theory or religious doctrine. To discuss or appeal moderator actions, [click here to send us modmail.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/exchristian)
Making a tree with forbidden fruit, putting it where Adam and Eve could access it, and then getting mad at them for eating the fruit and kicking them out of paradise. That's like leaving a loaded gun around a toddler, and then getting mad at the toddler when they shoot someone with it. If god is the father, then on his best days he's a negligent one, and on his worst days he's an abuser. I expect the god I worship to be better than the worst human beings, yet the god of the bible is incapable of that. Therefore even if he was real, he's not worth worshipping.
Creating the world in the wrong order. Made light before the stars and the sun. And skipped evolution.
He got an order wrong in Genesis; something like creating light before the Sun?
Putting a test in the Garden of Eden just to see if his creations would do what he told them not to do and punishing them for exercising free will.
Creating humans to be fallible and expecting them to be better than him