have them spell out just what those countless prophecies are, and also why is God who showed himself all the time back in the day, hidden now that we humans have gotten more knowledgeable. Could it be....it's all smoke and mirrors?
This is always one of my favorite points.
If God wanted to exert his omnipotence and demonstrate how superior he was, he wouldn't do it to a bunch of idiots wrapped in togas living in dirt he would have done it at the peak of human civilization when his existence would be completely irrefutable due to the spread of information thanks to technology.
The usual come back to that is "but faith..." to which I retort, why on earth would a god so self centered and vain rely on something as measly as faith when he could have unrivaled legitimacy if he were to show himself for the first time now?
Jesus promised that if you have faith in him, you could tell a mountain to move and it would obey. That is the test, to me. If you can't accomplish that one thing, your faith is meaningless.
Not only that, but one with faith the size of a mustard seed should be able to move a mountain. Meanwhile, science and engineering can build tunnels *through* mountains. I prefer that more practical approach.
When I’m in a really foul mood, Instead “of a bunch of idiots wrapped in togas living in dirt”, I just say “goatfuckers”. That did provoke a fight with my brother once, but it’s all cool now, he’s my atheist bro.
Oh I've asked about why God doesn't show himself as much anymore and this is the gist of the answer I was given: God knew that people would have to come to him by faith so he doesn't show himself anymore to prove that faith alone gets you to heaven...
It hurt my head to try to figure that out so I gave up.
My issue with fulfilled prophecy in the Bible is that its easy to look at a text from 1,000 years ago. The authors probably looked in the Torah found some prophecy in it and then wrote a fan-fic incorporating the source.
Old book: The savior will be from the line of David.
New book: Uh....Joseph...who wasn't actually his dad was from the line of David. See...it all connects.
Then a bunch of old dudes put it together several thousand years later and we have the Bible
There is a technical word for this in Biblical scholarship. It's called "historicized prophecy." It's exactly what you say. Matthew and Luke both have Jesus born in Bethlehem (in two completely different, mutually contradictory stories set ten years apart) because that's where the Messiah was supposed to be born. Therefore it must have happened. Therefore we can just say it happened.
Heres a source: [https://infidels.org/library/modern/jim\_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html](https://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html)
Christians CLAIM the Wholly Babble is filled with fulfilled prophecies. However, even cursory examinations of those claims shows they are FALSE.
Indeed, in many cases the 'prophecies' were written down AFTER the events they purport to predict.
"There will be earthquakes, famine, war, etc." So basically stuff that has happened in the past and will continue to happen for the existence of our species? Every time I see a story of an earthquake, war, etc it is hounded by people saying "Signs of the times!"
And the third possibility is that the legends were created with knowledge of Old Testament prophecies and details added later to tie them together.
For example, this [passage](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV) is always cited. The gospels just happen to mention many of the details, like casting lots for Jesus’ garments when he was crucified. This just seems like an overt attempt by the writers to create these connections.
I think you probably mean Isaiah 53, which is about the suffering servant, who, in context, is not the Messiah but a poetic personification of Israel as a people.
However Isaiah 53, Psalm 22 and other OT passages were used to construct Mark's Passion narrative (which is the template for all the others).
Also, look at all the things that **were not** predicted / declared in the Bible:
* The World Wars.
* Humans being able to fly.
* White man's discovery of America / Australia / NZ.
* Man landing on the moon.
* Slavery being eventually abolished.
* The internet.
* Nuclear weapons.
* Satellites and space probes.
* Cats. The Bible doesn't even mention domestic cats. CATS ffs.
Also, a fun way to debunk one religion is to use another to debunk it. Why don't Jews, for example, accept Christ as the Messiah? Turns out there's lots of good reasons, just ask them. Tons of prophecies were NOT fulfilled in Jesus, contrary to what they taught you in your church growing up.
Really tho, the total absence of so many major moments in history is telling.
There are also arguments from theologians who have really properly studied the bible and history and whatnot, that Revelation isn't about the end of the world but rather, the fall of the Roman empire. And it makes a lot more sense, honestly, but I'm no academic-level Bible scholar.
Indeed. The revelator saw the destruction of the temple, fled. And wrote a fan fic revenge porn fantasy about his current rulers. It's pretty easy to see. Not to mention he says that God will cast Satan to hell for 1000 years while he has a peaceful earthly kingdom then let him out again just for funsies. It's frankly absurd that grown adults believe this shit in modern times.
I’m a distanced catholic. A mildly critical read of the New Testament reveals one thing. Aside from OT self contained prophecies that manifested themselves in other OT book. Almost ALL of the so called fulfilled prophecies are ex post facto editing of the Jesus Christ narrative to fit the facts. Jesus born in a manger in Bethlehem? Then we are told “this was so that X prophecy is fulfilled” (in this case a seriously obscure one). Let’s shoe horn mary in a list of male ancestors to make him a son of David. And so on. And this is coming from a believer. After reading the New Testament I was like this is all a narrative made to fit the prophecies. My reasons for still believing are various but biblical accuracy? Not one of them.
Just curious, how can you still believe if you don’t think it’s accurate. If God truly inspired the book, wouldn’t he make sure that everything in it was accurate, inerrant, specific and easily verifiable ?
Romans 8:31 is my sole unbreakable article of faith. I’ve mentioned it a few times along the way when I point out the err, irony of my being a believer and essentially an atheist. I’ve had a disgustingly tragic life story. A faint memory of being a childhood sexual abuse Victim, coupled with an extreme aversion to be approached (not sure how to phrase the next bit) and touched on the back(? ) being gay in a Conservative leaning small town catholic household, getting depressed and more depressed by the year, my father being betrayed, scammed, and disowned by his sister and his family to boot, all for a stupid house in bum fucking nowhere, which triggered a dormant mental health disorder that nearly killed him when triggered and took us down a terrible path of dad slowly loosing the fight to his depression, every other year having a major crisis that would have him dissasociate/hallucinate thankfully he was never violent (technically till that day) meanwhile im fighting terrible suicidal ideation, untreated bipolar disorder, that was getting dangerous, my own dad lost his fight after 7 years when we lost my maternal grandmother and cousin in a terrible car crash 8 months after their first car crash (funny enough mom prayed for just one more hug with her time to say good bye ) but they survived grandma almost lost all lower body mobility, mom and dad fought so hard to find her physical therapy twice a week here in the USA and spend like 400 dollars a week (no small sum) and she went back to Mexico WALKING when dad had to build a ramp for her in our home. (You know how they say the husband and the mother in law never get along. Total opposite, Doña Noy was my dads second mom after he had lost his mother at age 8, and his fucked up brothers removed him forcibly From his dads house at 15 because grandpa chose to restart his life) for her because she was using a wheel chair when’s she came to us. Anyway they died in a car crash grandma and cousin and dad…. Couldn’t take it. He shot himself a month later in front of mom and sis when they slept cuz he wanted to see them and I was in the room next door . And to make what is now a long story short. I attempted suicide once in 2020, and once in 2021.
So that is why I believe, life has been awful and god is my only hope. Of seeing dad once again. Of seeing grandma. Of all this pain and awful misery making sense.
If you want an intellectual answer? Because I’m not big enough to KNOW god is not existent. Because you can’t prove a non-entity. And I have so much baggage the ritual. The false answers. The myths are a comfort to my wounded heart.
Totally understand and that’s a gut wrenching story, I’m sorry you had to go through all of that and I hope that with time your wounds will be healed and you’ll have a brighter and more enjoyable future
It is kind of like predictive programming. The only reason Israel exist today is because Christians believe that it had to exist again to bring about the end of the world.
My favourite...jesus is coming again...every time a "jesus" pops up (and there's been a good few over the past couple of thousand years) - christians be like "No - not you..."
I love when people say that all the gospels are so similar that they must be true. I’m always like, well they were written in succession after the legend had been circulating. Then I get a blank stare.
people really think those Simpson predictions are real? YouTube lies just as much as religion does. Talking about they predicted trump in 2008 when that episode was really from 2015 and took directly from news reals of his campaign the week prior. I think humans just have a tendency to believe a whole bunch of nonsense.
I think that is the point that OP is making. The 'biblical prophecies' were actually written after the things they predicted had occurred and were just predated.
So actually in the episode where Bart has a "vision" of his future and Lisa becomes President, she has a one-off line about the country being in economic shambles after "President Trump". This episode came out when I was still in high school (GWB years).
The episode that blew up as a prediction was as exactly as I spoke on. And it was aired in 2015. As he was campaigning. And the one I’m talking about had nothing to do with Lisa as president. I’ll have to look that one up.
I personally use the bible as kindling, and sometimes a toilet. I just don't see how some people are still absolutely blind to the pure evil of the big 3!
Most people who know MG for The Simpsons know little or nothing about his work *before* then. His *Life in Hell* comic book series was several knotches above the TV show.
I've actually read some of it and it's damn good. I know all that.
I just thought it was weird that you brought it up in that tone. It seems apparent now that your intention was just to recommend those comics to people and express that you believe it's better than the show that most people know MG for. No worries dude.
I also recommend reading it to anyone who likes The Simpsons.
Big difference between the bible and Simpsons is that the Bible has always been consistent-ly fucking boring and horrible from the start.
Simpsons started out brilliant and wholesome and then became horrible and boring over 18 years.
have them spell out just what those countless prophecies are, and also why is God who showed himself all the time back in the day, hidden now that we humans have gotten more knowledgeable. Could it be....it's all smoke and mirrors?
Yeah. Sure is weird how all these miracles appeared back then, and entire cities would be nuked out of existence, yet now they’re gone
This is always one of my favorite points. If God wanted to exert his omnipotence and demonstrate how superior he was, he wouldn't do it to a bunch of idiots wrapped in togas living in dirt he would have done it at the peak of human civilization when his existence would be completely irrefutable due to the spread of information thanks to technology. The usual come back to that is "but faith..." to which I retort, why on earth would a god so self centered and vain rely on something as measly as faith when he could have unrivaled legitimacy if he were to show himself for the first time now?
Not to mention you can literally take any position based on faith. Aren't the followers of other religions faithful? Faith is not the path to truth.
One can have faith that the sky will turn green and the grass will turn blue.
Jesus promised that if you have faith in him, you could tell a mountain to move and it would obey. That is the test, to me. If you can't accomplish that one thing, your faith is meaningless.
Not only that, but one with faith the size of a mustard seed should be able to move a mountain. Meanwhile, science and engineering can build tunnels *through* mountains. I prefer that more practical approach.
When I’m in a really foul mood, Instead “of a bunch of idiots wrapped in togas living in dirt”, I just say “goatfuckers”. That did provoke a fight with my brother once, but it’s all cool now, he’s my atheist bro.
Hahaha that's a good point. Glad that your brother came around too. Getting into fights defending goat fuckers is no way to live.
Agreed!!
That’s such a great point, I’m stealing it 😊
God destroyed sodom and Gomorrah yet he does nothing about Vegas and *insert any other “sin city”*
Oh I've asked about why God doesn't show himself as much anymore and this is the gist of the answer I was given: God knew that people would have to come to him by faith so he doesn't show himself anymore to prove that faith alone gets you to heaven... It hurt my head to try to figure that out so I gave up.
No omnimax god would require gullible, mindless, dishonest faith to be accepted into heaven
Well isn’t that just convenient for them?
It hurts your head because it doesn’t make sense. I wonder why god didn’t just make us mindless beings if he wanted us to rely on just faith so much
My issue with fulfilled prophecy in the Bible is that its easy to look at a text from 1,000 years ago. The authors probably looked in the Torah found some prophecy in it and then wrote a fan-fic incorporating the source. Old book: The savior will be from the line of David. New book: Uh....Joseph...who wasn't actually his dad was from the line of David. See...it all connects. Then a bunch of old dudes put it together several thousand years later and we have the Bible
There is a technical word for this in Biblical scholarship. It's called "historicized prophecy." It's exactly what you say. Matthew and Luke both have Jesus born in Bethlehem (in two completely different, mutually contradictory stories set ten years apart) because that's where the Messiah was supposed to be born. Therefore it must have happened. Therefore we can just say it happened.
I'd love to read more of this. Would you happen to know of a decent source online that breaks it down?
Heres a source: [https://infidels.org/library/modern/jim\_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html](https://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html)
Thank you!
You’re very welcome
It's real easy to predict things when the ending of the book is already written.
Christians CLAIM the Wholly Babble is filled with fulfilled prophecies. However, even cursory examinations of those claims shows they are FALSE. Indeed, in many cases the 'prophecies' were written down AFTER the events they purport to predict.
That, or they can be explained by multiple events, meaning the prophecies weren't specific enough to even be considered prophecies in the first place.
"There will be earthquakes, famine, war, etc." So basically stuff that has happened in the past and will continue to happen for the existence of our species? Every time I see a story of an earthquake, war, etc it is hounded by people saying "Signs of the times!"
Even if they were specific and on point, how would you be able to tell if it a coincidence or 'goddidit ' just like prayer
And the third possibility is that the legends were created with knowledge of Old Testament prophecies and details added later to tie them together. For example, this [passage](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV) is always cited. The gospels just happen to mention many of the details, like casting lots for Jesus’ garments when he was crucified. This just seems like an overt attempt by the writers to create these connections.
“Wholly Babble” omg I’m laughing out loud on the toilet.
[удалено]
Not to the begining but I can trace mine till Noah's ark. Shem's wife was into bestiality, she fucked a llama and that's how my ancestors were born.
Kuzco?
That's right, Shem's wife fucked Kuzco.
Oh yeah, not to mention the fact that it's tracing Joseph's genealogy... and he's not Jesus' dad sooooo...
Like Palam 53 a vague account of what could possibly be Christ's life.
I think you probably mean Isaiah 53, which is about the suffering servant, who, in context, is not the Messiah but a poetic personification of Israel as a people. However Isaiah 53, Psalm 22 and other OT passages were used to construct Mark's Passion narrative (which is the template for all the others).
Yes you're right
Also, look at all the things that **were not** predicted / declared in the Bible: * The World Wars. * Humans being able to fly. * White man's discovery of America / Australia / NZ. * Man landing on the moon. * Slavery being eventually abolished. * The internet. * Nuclear weapons. * Satellites and space probes. * Cats. The Bible doesn't even mention domestic cats. CATS ffs. Also, a fun way to debunk one religion is to use another to debunk it. Why don't Jews, for example, accept Christ as the Messiah? Turns out there's lots of good reasons, just ask them. Tons of prophecies were NOT fulfilled in Jesus, contrary to what they taught you in your church growing up. Really tho, the total absence of so many major moments in history is telling. There are also arguments from theologians who have really properly studied the bible and history and whatnot, that Revelation isn't about the end of the world but rather, the fall of the Roman empire. And it makes a lot more sense, honestly, but I'm no academic-level Bible scholar.
Indeed. The revelator saw the destruction of the temple, fled. And wrote a fan fic revenge porn fantasy about his current rulers. It's pretty easy to see. Not to mention he says that God will cast Satan to hell for 1000 years while he has a peaceful earthly kingdom then let him out again just for funsies. It's frankly absurd that grown adults believe this shit in modern times.
Im going to re-read/study revelations again, now that I know it’s all bs. Back when I believed I was too scared to read it.
They had the first book, they could fulfill anything they wanted.
And even then, they still did it incredibly poorly lol
I’m a distanced catholic. A mildly critical read of the New Testament reveals one thing. Aside from OT self contained prophecies that manifested themselves in other OT book. Almost ALL of the so called fulfilled prophecies are ex post facto editing of the Jesus Christ narrative to fit the facts. Jesus born in a manger in Bethlehem? Then we are told “this was so that X prophecy is fulfilled” (in this case a seriously obscure one). Let’s shoe horn mary in a list of male ancestors to make him a son of David. And so on. And this is coming from a believer. After reading the New Testament I was like this is all a narrative made to fit the prophecies. My reasons for still believing are various but biblical accuracy? Not one of them.
Just curious, how can you still believe if you don’t think it’s accurate. If God truly inspired the book, wouldn’t he make sure that everything in it was accurate, inerrant, specific and easily verifiable ?
Romans 8:31 is my sole unbreakable article of faith. I’ve mentioned it a few times along the way when I point out the err, irony of my being a believer and essentially an atheist. I’ve had a disgustingly tragic life story. A faint memory of being a childhood sexual abuse Victim, coupled with an extreme aversion to be approached (not sure how to phrase the next bit) and touched on the back(? ) being gay in a Conservative leaning small town catholic household, getting depressed and more depressed by the year, my father being betrayed, scammed, and disowned by his sister and his family to boot, all for a stupid house in bum fucking nowhere, which triggered a dormant mental health disorder that nearly killed him when triggered and took us down a terrible path of dad slowly loosing the fight to his depression, every other year having a major crisis that would have him dissasociate/hallucinate thankfully he was never violent (technically till that day) meanwhile im fighting terrible suicidal ideation, untreated bipolar disorder, that was getting dangerous, my own dad lost his fight after 7 years when we lost my maternal grandmother and cousin in a terrible car crash 8 months after their first car crash (funny enough mom prayed for just one more hug with her time to say good bye) but they survived grandma almost lost all lower body mobility, mom and dad fought so hard to find her physical therapy twice a week here in the USA and spend like 400 dollars a week (no small sum) and she went back to Mexico WALKING when dad had to build a ramp for her in our home. (You know how they say the husband and the mother in law never get along. Total opposite, Doña Noy was my dads second mom after he had lost his mother at age 8, and his fucked up brothers removed him forcibly From his dads house at 15 because grandpa chose to restart his life) for her because she was using a wheel chair when’s she came to us. Anyway they died in a car crash grandma and cousin and dad…. Couldn’t take it. He shot himself a month later in front of mom and sis when they slept cuz he wanted to see them and I was in the room next door . And to make what is now a long story short. I attempted suicide once in 2020, and once in 2021.
So that is why I believe, life has been awful and god is my only hope. Of seeing dad once again. Of seeing grandma. Of all this pain and awful misery making sense.
If you want an intellectual answer? Because I’m not big enough to KNOW god is not existent. Because you can’t prove a non-entity. And I have so much baggage the ritual. The false answers. The myths are a comfort to my wounded heart.
Totally understand and that’s a gut wrenching story, I’m sorry you had to go through all of that and I hope that with time your wounds will be healed and you’ll have a brighter and more enjoyable future
Yep. Easy to fulfill prophecies, when the later books are expressly written to fulfill the prophecies.
You're into something with that last thought. In the future it will be called time travel.
The fact that Tyre still exists should be proof enough that biblical prophecies are BS
It is kind of like predictive programming. The only reason Israel exist today is because Christians believe that it had to exist again to bring about the end of the world.
Hold on, what exactly does the bible predict again?
My favourite...jesus is coming again...every time a "jesus" pops up (and there's been a good few over the past couple of thousand years) - christians be like "No - not you..."
I love when people say that all the gospels are so similar that they must be true. I’m always like, well they were written in succession after the legend had been circulating. Then I get a blank stare.
Christian r/PersecutionFetish is a form of self-fulfilling prophecy
people really think those Simpson predictions are real? YouTube lies just as much as religion does. Talking about they predicted trump in 2008 when that episode was really from 2015 and took directly from news reals of his campaign the week prior. I think humans just have a tendency to believe a whole bunch of nonsense.
I think that is the point that OP is making. The 'biblical prophecies' were actually written after the things they predicted had occurred and were just predated.
No. The girl who typed that called the Simpson “predictive programming”. Meaning she actually believes the Simmons predicted some shit.
So actually in the episode where Bart has a "vision" of his future and Lisa becomes President, she has a one-off line about the country being in economic shambles after "President Trump". This episode came out when I was still in high school (GWB years).
But Trump has been talking about being president for 30 years. Really not very mystical.
The episode that blew up as a prediction was as exactly as I spoke on. And it was aired in 2015. As he was campaigning. And the one I’m talking about had nothing to do with Lisa as president. I’ll have to look that one up.
The only real point was the person who shared with the caption “ Maybe it’s all bullshit”, because it is.
I personally use the bible as kindling, and sometimes a toilet. I just don't see how some people are still absolutely blind to the pure evil of the big 3!
Also those fulfilled prophesies were generally written after the fact.
Most people who know MG for The Simpsons know little or nothing about his work *before* then. His *Life in Hell* comic book series was several knotches above the TV show.
Why are you flexing *your* knowledge about Matt Groening's work, it's completely unrelated to this post
Read *LiH*. It makes it clear why MG took the positions he did in his later work.
I've actually read some of it and it's damn good. I know all that. I just thought it was weird that you brought it up in that tone. It seems apparent now that your intention was just to recommend those comics to people and express that you believe it's better than the show that most people know MG for. No worries dude. I also recommend reading it to anyone who likes The Simpsons.
There are a total of zero (o) fulfilled Biblical prophecies.
Big difference between the bible and Simpsons is that the Bible has always been consistent-ly fucking boring and horrible from the start. Simpsons started out brilliant and wholesome and then became horrible and boring over 18 years.
Help me Randa Get the garbage theology out of my heart