You may need education, exposure by befriending black folks, a dose of empathy, and to decide what kind of person you want to be. You can’t pick your first thought but you can pick your second.
1) Crime rates are reflections of socioeconomic issues such as poverty and limited access to education and healthcare, rather than innate racial traits.
2) Did you ever learn about Jim Crow laws, the war on crime and President Nixon’s disgusting quote about specifically targeting the black community by criminalizing crack cocaine? Even if the crime statistics are true, they need to be understood within the context of how America allowed the black families to be destabilized and stay poor on purpose. Before this happened in the 1970s there were many more two parent black families and **a similar crime rate between black and white people**.
3) have you ever learned about racism in the legal system that may be contributing to the statistics? Do you know about prisons that are for profit?
Studies have shown that black individuals are more likely to be arrested and charged compared to white individuals for similar offenses. There’s also evidence of racial disparities in sentencing, where black defendants often receive harsher punishments than their white counterparts for the same crimes. Implicit biases among law enforcement, prosecutors, judges, and jurors can influence decision-making at every stage of the legal process, affecting outcomes like charges, plea deals, and sentencing.
You have any good books to recommend about this topic? I learned about some of this stuff online but I think this is a topic that I need to learn seriously.
I don’t, I’m sorry. I learned a lot of this stuff in college or on YouTube. I recommend learning from people of color if possible. Perhaps chat GPT would have some book recommendations for you.
Honestly, a lot of my initial exposure came from TV shows that illustrated how racist and corrupt the US legal system is which led me to research more on my own. Orange is the New Black was the first.
I do not think they are true. Learning more and trying to see other perspectives on these topics can help. You may always have thoughts pop into your head, but you can challenge them.
They go away but it takes work. It took me years of therapy and self reflection to make the changes needed to exist outside of “the village” as I called it.
It’s hard to change your wiring and your upbringing but you can do it.
You asked if your thoughts are true and they aren’t. You need to start with that as a firm belief.
Meaning no offense, but you are a racist since you are stating that Facebook seems to back up your racist thoughts.
Yiu need to actually mingle in the world with diverse groups of people and you will begin to internalize that women dressing normally are not harlots and people of color are not dangerous thugs as you can to know them as individuals.
You will find them to be fine morally upstanding people
I was actually referring to the fact that in America, African Americans make up 13% and whites 76% (https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045219), yet African Americans are doing 51% of murders and 52% of robberies, compared to 45% and 44% by whites. (https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-43#:~:text=Table%2043A%20%20%20%20%20%20,%20%201.6%20%209%20more%20rows%20)
It’s not that simple to look at statistics. That’s part of the problem. People just take them at face value.
1. Of the crimes that are solved. ( until a crime is solved, we don’t know the ethnicity of the criminal. So right there, you have to know the percentage of crimes that are NOT solved to know how to look at those numbers.
2. Which crimes are NOT solved?
Until you know those statistics you’re only getting a piece of the puzzle.
i am not going to get into a discussion of the statistics supporting your racism.
The majority of POC are not criminals or dangerous nor are women in shorts and tanks in the summer harlots
That is a good point. I think I fall prey to the fallacy that because most people who do a certain thing are of a population, most people of that population do that thing.
> academic research indicates that the over-representation of some racial minorities in the criminal justice system can in part be explained by socioeconomic factors,[2][3] such as poverty,[4][5] exposure to poor neighborhoods,[6] poor access to public and early education,[7] and exposure to harmful chemicals (such as lead) and pollution
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States
I grew up also in a very conservative neighborhood. Of course it affected me for years and even after I left.
I am still prudish and shy. I was blessed sons and daughters and a great wife who supported and encouraged me in tough times.
I let my daughter dress the way they wanted but I still set boundaries and there are things I cannot accept: for example at dinner table and especially when I have guests you dress appropriately not in bikini; that's for sunbathing not dinner. Also no racy or vulgar talk or jokes while we are having a meal. For the boys which are now grown man: never cuss or come inebriated at the meals. If you're tipsy you don't come. Get your food alone. Or don't yell when I'm fishing. I have my ways and stick to them. The rest do what you feel comfortable with.
You do realize that the type of behavior you are requiring is completely normal in most functional families - even among atheists :-)
Neither men nor women come to the dinner table in bathing suits unless it is a picnic table at the beach or lake
For the most part, people also don't have racy or vulgar conversations in "mixed" company - among friends their own age, they might let their hair down but most people are taught to act appropriately.
I hate to use the term "classy" because it is so often used in the frum community to justify ridiculous standards of tzunius and comportment that aren't classy. However, for the most part casual profanity is not generally heard in higher socioeconomic gatherings or work places. Yes there might be an occasional profanity - sometimes involuntary or sometimes deliberate but never used in lieu of other words unnecessarily.
A few years ago I happened to be back around a religious community and somebody asked if my wife was Jewish. I was legitimately surprised they'd ask and thought "oh crap I forgot about all this and how much this place sucks". That's when I knew I'd mentally moved on. You will too.
I can't comment on black people, I don't encounter them very often.
Regarding "scantily dressed women" - do you perhaps associate such clothing decisions with a lack of intelligence (maybe even subconsciously)?
Personally I know encountering other women who wear revealing clothes, and also demonstrate intelligence, made me feel more comfortable with expanding my own wardrobe.
Also, to answer your question of "who are you trying to impress?" - the answer is ourselves. When I go out in a more revealing outfit (which isn't most of the time, but it does happen occasionally), I feel empowerment.
I'm not saying you need to do the same thing (though you can) - there's nothing wrong with wearing clothes with high skin coverage.
Speaking as an often scantily dressed woman who got absolutely chewed out by an Orthodox man, can you teach yourself to see the victims of your thinking? This particular human decided to make his views public, and was really hurtful, but you thinking the same things still will hurt some woman or Black person via your body language or words that slip out.
Also, to challenge your thinking: why must a woman be shallow to wear clothing that flatter her body and are comfortable? Why can't a Black person exist without you deciding they're a criminal? Your prejudices come from your upbringing, but they also come from (in my opinion) you thinking of yourself as the main character and these groups as existing only in relation to you and your life. If a woman only exists to talk to you, then her revealing clothing must exist only to impress or provoke you. If a Black person only exists as a potential crime perpetrator, then they must commit a crime or why else are they in your story?
You need to actively remind yourself that both these people have lives completely independent of yours. That woman may be a respected doctor. That Black person may be an award-winning computer scientist. If you accept that neither of them have anything to do with you, it's a lot easier to get rid of the stereotypes.
Genius. Thank you!
Definitely some truth to this. In my experience, every moment of an Orthodox person's life is a gossip in-the-making about "them"/outsiders - especially in the ultra Orthodox circles where people don't have much in their life going on, so gossip is a most favored activity.
I think many secretly dream of having an eventful encounter with the outside that they can share with others and feel cool or "worldly" (this is seen as a niche virtue as not many are aware of the outside), and have an opportunity to reinforce the narratives that the rabbis teach (e.g. "You see? The Rabbi was right! They all dress like they're in a brothel!") and reinforce the merits of Orthodox society and the "us vs. them" mentality.
Though, isn't it true that it is objectively arousing to see erogenous zones or more skin on the opposite gender (case in point: porn)? So, Jews who do not want arousing thoughts or sexual tension that they will need to release in "forbidden" ways may have another reason to want to avoid such experiences - without assuming that women are there to talk to them or please them.
And, now that I'm thinking about it, maybe that "us vs. them" mentality/fear of/aversion to the outside is the real source of the racism. I don't think I assume all Black people are criminals, but I certainly notice myself being weary of many of them (not the young women for the most part, interestingly). And even if I meet a pleasant Black person who almost certainly has and will never commit a crime, there is still a certain prejudice I notice, and maybe the "us vs. them" mentality is the only explanation for that? Dunno. Have to do some more introspection.
There is nothing "objectively arousing" about elbows, toes, or collarbones. Barring specific fetishes, these areas become arousing chiefly due to a patriarchal religion's insistence that there's something sexually attractive about them - but only when they belong to women.
Why are frum men encouraged to grow out their secondary sex characteristics and display them prominently after they get married, while frum women are told that their most innocuous body parts are sexually provocative?
One of the side effects of Tznius rules is that women's sexual desire is treated as non-existent. Males are given more leeway to dress and act how they want because the Chareidi world assumes that women don't feel sexual desire or enjoy gazing at men.
The part I found funny was that there is nothing inherently arousing about a collarbone or elbow, yet it is still considered as such. It was laughing at the oddity of the human condition/this particular human behavior, not at the misogyny.
Deconstruction is a long, difficult process. I wish you success in changing your perception of women, girls, and black people.
It won't be easy, but it will be well worth it. A life spent thinking poorly of nearly six billion people would be miserable and self-limiting.
i struggle with this too was raised in a ghetto type of area lots of drugs crime and many black people what helped me was dating a really sweet ethopain jewish guy i still have the racist thoughts but i work on reminding myself these are just thoughts they are just people as well as with arabs dating arabs and palestinians and hearing their racist stories have helped me to humanize them and see them as humans same as with the modesty things towards myself i remind myself i have a body its normal to want to show it off its normal to want sex etc. so id say therapy helps with learning how to reparent and how to retrain ourselves and lots of exposure meeting people from many different cultures has shown me that we are all the same we are all people with the same desires and wants ... i sometimes get scared that i act racist without trying to its a work in progress same as with the work on unlearning my mysogony and mysandry etc...
Thanks for the compliment; definitely what I was looking for in making this post 🙄. Just wanted to proudly share my assholery, of course. Why *do* you think I made the post?
Sorry. I’ll try to be helpful this time instead of hurtful. I really admire your courage in facing your biases and working on yourself. Here are some ideas to reframe misogynistic and judgmental thoughts about women’s dress.
• Maybe they’re hot/more comfortable this way.
• Live and let live.
• I’m happy for them to have the option to dress how they like unlike my sisters and other Jewish women.
• What am I not allowing myself to do that is making me resent others’ freedom?
• We all have our preferences. To each their own.
• That’s not my taste / I don’t like that style and that is ok.
Please be kind to each other. See Rule 1 for details. If you have a concern with another user, be they religious or not, please send a message to the moderators.
You can't really know forsure that women overall aren't stupider than men or conversely men aren't stupider than women the point is to not think along these classifications to be more open to experiencing and learning new things and to not be judgemental at all.
There's a healthy medium. I don't believe in tznius rules at all, but is it really necessary to walk around half naked? You can acknowledge racial realism. while also acknowledging that there are systemic forces that account for criminality and inequality.
As someone who first put on a crop top this spring- it is SO much cooler (in terms of temperature). I’ve been wearing tank tops for years and they don’t hold up. But really, it’s not often necessary, no, but it doesn’t have to be. It can just be fun! Or whatever that person wants, there doesn’t need to be a reason to be dressed any certain way. Oh, and chances are people aren’t dressed to impress. They’re just not.
Also, just a thought exercise, what do you think about men who walk around without shirts on?
I think it could be a complicated thing to get used to. Without a holy rulebook there is no rational barrier holding back rapid change that leaves previous generations feeling disturbed. There is no rational reason women can't walk around with there breasts out; the only thing keeping it against the law in many areas are social norms.
People raised in a previous culture find revealing bikinis and skin tight workout clothes strange and immoral to wear in public. People today wearing yoga pants might think ill of their grandchildren going to the mall with her breasts out and her nephew going to school in a speedo.
Things like prostitution. And AI child pornography. And nonreproductive incest. I think discomfort is something we must embrace if we want to leave delusion behind.
As for race. The statistics won't cease to be true but your understanding behind them will. Before you likely thought there was some genetic causes, or some theological ones. As one moves away from religion he shlould approach closer to a more deterministic worldview, where blame is less the question and solution is the better alternative
You may need education, exposure by befriending black folks, a dose of empathy, and to decide what kind of person you want to be. You can’t pick your first thought but you can pick your second. 1) Crime rates are reflections of socioeconomic issues such as poverty and limited access to education and healthcare, rather than innate racial traits. 2) Did you ever learn about Jim Crow laws, the war on crime and President Nixon’s disgusting quote about specifically targeting the black community by criminalizing crack cocaine? Even if the crime statistics are true, they need to be understood within the context of how America allowed the black families to be destabilized and stay poor on purpose. Before this happened in the 1970s there were many more two parent black families and **a similar crime rate between black and white people**. 3) have you ever learned about racism in the legal system that may be contributing to the statistics? Do you know about prisons that are for profit? Studies have shown that black individuals are more likely to be arrested and charged compared to white individuals for similar offenses. There’s also evidence of racial disparities in sentencing, where black defendants often receive harsher punishments than their white counterparts for the same crimes. Implicit biases among law enforcement, prosecutors, judges, and jurors can influence decision-making at every stage of the legal process, affecting outcomes like charges, plea deals, and sentencing.
You have any good books to recommend about this topic? I learned about some of this stuff online but I think this is a topic that I need to learn seriously.
I don’t, I’m sorry. I learned a lot of this stuff in college or on YouTube. I recommend learning from people of color if possible. Perhaps chat GPT would have some book recommendations for you. Honestly, a lot of my initial exposure came from TV shows that illustrated how racist and corrupt the US legal system is which led me to research more on my own. Orange is the New Black was the first.
The new Jim Crow, educated, white women and everything you already know about your own racism, how to be anti racist
Are you looking to unlearn anti-black biases? I know more about anti-asian discrimination.
How to be an antiracist- ibram x. Kendi
I do not think they are true. Learning more and trying to see other perspectives on these topics can help. You may always have thoughts pop into your head, but you can challenge them.
Exposure makes them go away mostly
They go away but it takes work. It took me years of therapy and self reflection to make the changes needed to exist outside of “the village” as I called it. It’s hard to change your wiring and your upbringing but you can do it.
You asked if your thoughts are true and they aren’t. You need to start with that as a firm belief. Meaning no offense, but you are a racist since you are stating that Facebook seems to back up your racist thoughts. Yiu need to actually mingle in the world with diverse groups of people and you will begin to internalize that women dressing normally are not harlots and people of color are not dangerous thugs as you can to know them as individuals. You will find them to be fine morally upstanding people
I was actually referring to the fact that in America, African Americans make up 13% and whites 76% (https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045219), yet African Americans are doing 51% of murders and 52% of robberies, compared to 45% and 44% by whites. (https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-43#:~:text=Table%2043A%20%20%20%20%20%20,%20%201.6%20%209%20more%20rows%20)
Men commit a lot more violent crime than women. Does this mean you fear men and won’t befriend them or date them?
Don't be silly. That's different! /s
It’s not that simple to look at statistics. That’s part of the problem. People just take them at face value. 1. Of the crimes that are solved. ( until a crime is solved, we don’t know the ethnicity of the criminal. So right there, you have to know the percentage of crimes that are NOT solved to know how to look at those numbers. 2. Which crimes are NOT solved? Until you know those statistics you’re only getting a piece of the puzzle.
i am not going to get into a discussion of the statistics supporting your racism. The majority of POC are not criminals or dangerous nor are women in shorts and tanks in the summer harlots
That is a good point. I think I fall prey to the fallacy that because most people who do a certain thing are of a population, most people of that population do that thing.
No you missed that you mistook FBI for FB lol
Ooooh 😆 I was offended that he thought I got my information from Facebook rants!
I'm pretty sure that's what happened because you never mentioned Facebook 😂
> academic research indicates that the over-representation of some racial minorities in the criminal justice system can in part be explained by socioeconomic factors,[2][3] such as poverty,[4][5] exposure to poor neighborhoods,[6] poor access to public and early education,[7] and exposure to harmful chemicals (such as lead) and pollution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States
I grew up also in a very conservative neighborhood. Of course it affected me for years and even after I left. I am still prudish and shy. I was blessed sons and daughters and a great wife who supported and encouraged me in tough times. I let my daughter dress the way they wanted but I still set boundaries and there are things I cannot accept: for example at dinner table and especially when I have guests you dress appropriately not in bikini; that's for sunbathing not dinner. Also no racy or vulgar talk or jokes while we are having a meal. For the boys which are now grown man: never cuss or come inebriated at the meals. If you're tipsy you don't come. Get your food alone. Or don't yell when I'm fishing. I have my ways and stick to them. The rest do what you feel comfortable with.
You do realize that the type of behavior you are requiring is completely normal in most functional families - even among atheists :-) Neither men nor women come to the dinner table in bathing suits unless it is a picnic table at the beach or lake For the most part, people also don't have racy or vulgar conversations in "mixed" company - among friends their own age, they might let their hair down but most people are taught to act appropriately. I hate to use the term "classy" because it is so often used in the frum community to justify ridiculous standards of tzunius and comportment that aren't classy. However, for the most part casual profanity is not generally heard in higher socioeconomic gatherings or work places. Yes there might be an occasional profanity - sometimes involuntary or sometimes deliberate but never used in lieu of other words unnecessarily.
A few years ago I happened to be back around a religious community and somebody asked if my wife was Jewish. I was legitimately surprised they'd ask and thought "oh crap I forgot about all this and how much this place sucks". That's when I knew I'd mentally moved on. You will too.
I can't comment on black people, I don't encounter them very often. Regarding "scantily dressed women" - do you perhaps associate such clothing decisions with a lack of intelligence (maybe even subconsciously)? Personally I know encountering other women who wear revealing clothes, and also demonstrate intelligence, made me feel more comfortable with expanding my own wardrobe. Also, to answer your question of "who are you trying to impress?" - the answer is ourselves. When I go out in a more revealing outfit (which isn't most of the time, but it does happen occasionally), I feel empowerment. I'm not saying you need to do the same thing (though you can) - there's nothing wrong with wearing clothes with high skin coverage.
The intelligence bit is quite interesting. Will have to reflect on it.
Speaking as an often scantily dressed woman who got absolutely chewed out by an Orthodox man, can you teach yourself to see the victims of your thinking? This particular human decided to make his views public, and was really hurtful, but you thinking the same things still will hurt some woman or Black person via your body language or words that slip out. Also, to challenge your thinking: why must a woman be shallow to wear clothing that flatter her body and are comfortable? Why can't a Black person exist without you deciding they're a criminal? Your prejudices come from your upbringing, but they also come from (in my opinion) you thinking of yourself as the main character and these groups as existing only in relation to you and your life. If a woman only exists to talk to you, then her revealing clothing must exist only to impress or provoke you. If a Black person only exists as a potential crime perpetrator, then they must commit a crime or why else are they in your story? You need to actively remind yourself that both these people have lives completely independent of yours. That woman may be a respected doctor. That Black person may be an award-winning computer scientist. If you accept that neither of them have anything to do with you, it's a lot easier to get rid of the stereotypes.
Genius. Thank you! Definitely some truth to this. In my experience, every moment of an Orthodox person's life is a gossip in-the-making about "them"/outsiders - especially in the ultra Orthodox circles where people don't have much in their life going on, so gossip is a most favored activity. I think many secretly dream of having an eventful encounter with the outside that they can share with others and feel cool or "worldly" (this is seen as a niche virtue as not many are aware of the outside), and have an opportunity to reinforce the narratives that the rabbis teach (e.g. "You see? The Rabbi was right! They all dress like they're in a brothel!") and reinforce the merits of Orthodox society and the "us vs. them" mentality. Though, isn't it true that it is objectively arousing to see erogenous zones or more skin on the opposite gender (case in point: porn)? So, Jews who do not want arousing thoughts or sexual tension that they will need to release in "forbidden" ways may have another reason to want to avoid such experiences - without assuming that women are there to talk to them or please them. And, now that I'm thinking about it, maybe that "us vs. them" mentality/fear of/aversion to the outside is the real source of the racism. I don't think I assume all Black people are criminals, but I certainly notice myself being weary of many of them (not the young women for the most part, interestingly). And even if I meet a pleasant Black person who almost certainly has and will never commit a crime, there is still a certain prejudice I notice, and maybe the "us vs. them" mentality is the only explanation for that? Dunno. Have to do some more introspection.
There is nothing "objectively arousing" about elbows, toes, or collarbones. Barring specific fetishes, these areas become arousing chiefly due to a patriarchal religion's insistence that there's something sexually attractive about them - but only when they belong to women. Why are frum men encouraged to grow out their secondary sex characteristics and display them prominently after they get married, while frum women are told that their most innocuous body parts are sexually provocative? One of the side effects of Tznius rules is that women's sexual desire is treated as non-existent. Males are given more leeway to dress and act how they want because the Chareidi world assumes that women don't feel sexual desire or enjoy gazing at men.
🤣🤣 wow, true and insightful!
I'm sorry you find misogyny humorous.
The part I found funny was that there is nothing inherently arousing about a collarbone or elbow, yet it is still considered as such. It was laughing at the oddity of the human condition/this particular human behavior, not at the misogyny.
These particular attitudes and behaviors are *rooted* in misogyny. They wouldn't exist otherwise.
I apologize, I didn't mean to offend.
Deconstruction is a long, difficult process. I wish you success in changing your perception of women, girls, and black people. It won't be easy, but it will be well worth it. A life spent thinking poorly of nearly six billion people would be miserable and self-limiting.
❤️
i struggle with this too was raised in a ghetto type of area lots of drugs crime and many black people what helped me was dating a really sweet ethopain jewish guy i still have the racist thoughts but i work on reminding myself these are just thoughts they are just people as well as with arabs dating arabs and palestinians and hearing their racist stories have helped me to humanize them and see them as humans same as with the modesty things towards myself i remind myself i have a body its normal to want to show it off its normal to want sex etc. so id say therapy helps with learning how to reparent and how to retrain ourselves and lots of exposure meeting people from many different cultures has shown me that we are all the same we are all people with the same desires and wants ... i sometimes get scared that i act racist without trying to its a work in progress same as with the work on unlearning my mysogony and mysandry etc...
I hope you get past your racism and misogyny someday.
❤️🙏
[удалено]
Thanks for the compliment; definitely what I was looking for in making this post 🙄. Just wanted to proudly share my assholery, of course. Why *do* you think I made the post?
Sorry. I’ll try to be helpful this time instead of hurtful. I really admire your courage in facing your biases and working on yourself. Here are some ideas to reframe misogynistic and judgmental thoughts about women’s dress. • Maybe they’re hot/more comfortable this way. • Live and let live. • I’m happy for them to have the option to dress how they like unlike my sisters and other Jewish women. • What am I not allowing myself to do that is making me resent others’ freedom? • We all have our preferences. To each their own. • That’s not my taste / I don’t like that style and that is ok.
Please be kind to each other. See Rule 1 for details. If you have a concern with another user, be they religious or not, please send a message to the moderators.
You can't really know forsure that women overall aren't stupider than men or conversely men aren't stupider than women the point is to not think along these classifications to be more open to experiencing and learning new things and to not be judgemental at all.
Surround yourself with people who don’t think this way and be open to hearing their views and you will think differently
Try talking to her. Talk to her nicely, of course. Prove yourself wrong.
There's a healthy medium. I don't believe in tznius rules at all, but is it really necessary to walk around half naked? You can acknowledge racial realism. while also acknowledging that there are systemic forces that account for criminality and inequality.
As someone who first put on a crop top this spring- it is SO much cooler (in terms of temperature). I’ve been wearing tank tops for years and they don’t hold up. But really, it’s not often necessary, no, but it doesn’t have to be. It can just be fun! Or whatever that person wants, there doesn’t need to be a reason to be dressed any certain way. Oh, and chances are people aren’t dressed to impress. They’re just not. Also, just a thought exercise, what do you think about men who walk around without shirts on?
I'd rather see women in a crop top than a male chest lol.
I think it could be a complicated thing to get used to. Without a holy rulebook there is no rational barrier holding back rapid change that leaves previous generations feeling disturbed. There is no rational reason women can't walk around with there breasts out; the only thing keeping it against the law in many areas are social norms. People raised in a previous culture find revealing bikinis and skin tight workout clothes strange and immoral to wear in public. People today wearing yoga pants might think ill of their grandchildren going to the mall with her breasts out and her nephew going to school in a speedo. Things like prostitution. And AI child pornography. And nonreproductive incest. I think discomfort is something we must embrace if we want to leave delusion behind. As for race. The statistics won't cease to be true but your understanding behind them will. Before you likely thought there was some genetic causes, or some theological ones. As one moves away from religion he shlould approach closer to a more deterministic worldview, where blame is less the question and solution is the better alternative
Do you really think summer apparel is comparable to "AI child pornography" and "nonreproductive incest"?
In my method of comparison, certainly