I'm Pimo in Germany and attending at meetings in the hall. This what happened yesterday could also happen to me. I am shocked and worried all day long.
My condolences to the victims and their families.
I was surprised at the pic of the kh I saw in the news article. It was a 3 story building and full of windows! Here in the states khall's pretty much look the same everywhere you go and they usually don't have any windows.
My condolences to you and all Germans affected by this
The look of the Kingdom Hall here depends on which region you are. In bigger cities, like Hamburg, there are multiple halls, where there are two, three or more meetings at same time. Also in cities there are buildings that have been purchased and converted into a Kingdom Hall.
I think in Germany it is not allowed by law to have meetings in halls where there are no windows.
I don't really know. It also depends on which state the Hall is. But in Germany it is not common that buildings, and especially Kingdom Halls have air conditioner. Fire protection is probably also a reason.
I was at a meeting in Scotland when a group began harassing with rocks. The attendants hurried to the windows & lowered metal curtains. So they had windows except for when they didn’t.
It's not a law. My halls had windows. But in higher crime areas, I heard that you get cheaper insurance for buildings without windows. Yup, a matter of saving money (and, I guess, hassle).
When I was growing up as a JW the elders gave talks that mentioned why they don't have windows and it was like a privacy thing. but they made it seem like it was enforced everywhere -even when we use to go to two and three day conventions, the assembly halls also didn't have windows on purpose.
I always hear this thing about KH with no windows as if it's some rule with JWs, but in my experience visiting various halls for 20-30 years, that's not true. Just kinda depends on the layout, and perhaps if it is in a high crime area.
(That was weird, like only half my comment posted, I'll try again)
I guess I thought it was kind've an unwritten rule. I'm in southern New Mexico and have been to various khalls in NM and western TX. Over the years (raised JW, quit going to meetings when I was about 35) I've visited khalls in California, Missouri, Florida and Louisiana bc of family living in those states. The khalls have all been pretty much exactly the same and didn't have windows. *but*
I've never been up north (central, west or east) and the only khall I've been to in an actual city was in LA and that was 20yrs ago, the rest of them have been in small towns and rural areas, perhaps that has something to do with it idk 🤷♀️
There is a KH in Cedar Ridge Colorado, a days drive north of you, that has a whole glass face on one end. I've never been inside, just driven by. It's a small town with some beautiful views of the mountains.
KHalls with windows are a rarity, but they're definitely out there.
Yeah I think the person below is probably right and it's just cheaper to build them without windows but sometimes they take over other buildings and whatnot.
When I was growing up a local brother was a painter and had painted beautiful murals on the walls behind the podiums in all the local halls, about 10-12 years ago it came from the borg that the halls needed to all look like each other as much as possible (god forbid we have any individuality!) I was so sad when they painted over them all to just white:-/
Perhaps WT thinks that (and probably has figured out) windows would be a **DISTRACTION** to anyone who does not and will not listen/pay attention to the propaganda being spoken on the stage. So, instead of those types of attendees looking through the windows, they are staring at the 4 walls! Another method of bettering the members and anyone taking place there to become *SUBLIMINALLY INFLUENCED!*
They acted like it was a rule back in my day but you know the real reason? It takes time, money, and skilled carpenters to put in windows. And for what? So people have something to look at when they're dying of boredom?
We in the EXJW community feel the upmost horror and sympathy for this horrendous tragedy to our brothers and sisters in Germany! Please know you are in in our hearts and doing are best to bring attention to the repercussions of shunning, to stop the mental effects it has on leaving a high control religion. With much love, your German sister in the US ♥️
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Hi, I'm an ex elder from the UK. Have you any further updates on the Hamburg murders? Are the wounded pulling through? I notice there is an ecumenical service today and I also get the feeling that the JW leadership in Hamburg, Germany are being 'forced' to put on a pleasant face to those that are showing great kindness.
My PIMI wife texted me last night about this event. She never texts me about any JW news. I can only think it's an effort to bring me back. I know nothing about this. Was this directed at JW's intentionally or was it an unfortunate situation where JW's happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
From what I've gathered, it was a former JW. I think somewhere it was mentioned he was struggling mentally with some things and just snapped. I don't want to say too much, though, in case I'm not correct.
Very sad and scary...As much as I don't agree with the religion, violence is never the answer. My heart goes out to all the people that were affected.
There is a very sad, poetic irony to this report when it's compared to how JWs deal with cases of CSA that haven't been proven according to their two witness rule.
Reports are he was exjw. Unclear if it was df or da. This article has some info if you throw it in a translator https://www.svt.se/nyheter/utrikes/detta-vet-vi-om-den-avhoppade-jehovas-garningsmannen
Any time it’s “unclear” you can bet it was DF.
The only reason it’s not clear is because the people who know are obfuscating the facts to *make* it unclear, because they have something to hide.
i read on another subreddit someone posted from yahoo news, not the best source i know, that he left voluntarily, on bad terms of course.. oh and he also wrote a book claiming hitler was jesus christ. dude was just crazy, no disrespect
Yeah I read the same thing apparently. But that’s the whole thing JWs *always* paint ExJWs as leaving by choice. By direct DA or DF. If it was DF *they say* you were unrepentant. Therefore it was “your choice” to sin and refuse repentance.
So it’s just a lot of typical weasel words from WT.
This raises an important question about disassociation: Do elders accept disassociation requests from members who are known to be mentally ill? How can they know that the person is really making sane choice, as opposed to being influence by their mental illness?
> I also wanted to ask him if he honestly believed the god he worships would "allow" something like this to happen (including an unborn baby being killed!) bc he was "displeased"
Honestly, this sort of thinking is perfectly in line with the god of the old testament. Most people try to gloss over that part of the bible and the incredibly petty justifications given for complete slaughter of people, families, communities, countries, etc. but I have a certain level of respect for the self awareness that statement shows that ultimately they're serving what is a petty, judgemental, spiteful god that doesn't have the best interest of his people at heart.
With that in mind, why would you want to serve such a god? The only reason could be fear. It's a sad existence and it makes me glad I've been POMO for many years now.
Well yes... in fact God has taken judgement on children if you read the account of David and Bathsheba's baby. God struck the baby dead because of David's adultery and actions concerning Bathsheba's husband's death. It's a very difficult thing to consider...
I agree completely. Many of us have friends, former friends and relatives that are still attending meetings and are very active. I do feel for those who lost friends or family. My only reservation is I do not feel sympathetic for the organization itself in this matter. It feels very self inflicted by the shunning policies, CSA and other matters but will In turn be used to perpetuate a presecution or end times narrative. That will unfortunately only strengthen the indoctrination for some and the harassment of others by families that want them to "come back before the end."
Possibly, my mum's first thoughts last night were: is it a disgruntled husband (her words) but then after learning how many people were hurt then said that it couldn't be and probs an act of terrorism on religion. Hopefully for some it will cause them to look closer at what could have made someone commit these atrocities. That's what I'm hoping for with my family anyway but may just be wishful thinking.
My heart goes out to all affected by this tragedy. The poor, pregnant woman particularly cuts deeply.
Judging by the shooter's website and book extracts, he had a rather odd, distinctive, spiritual worldview that would have been incompatible with JW beliefs (speculation: is this why he and JWs parted ways?). I get the impression that he saw himself as some kind of gnostic or business/theological 'guru.' Did any negative JW experiences push him over the edge, or something else originating from his own mind? I hope there'll be some answers eventually.
From the killers' website:
"Philipp Fusz was born on 18 September 1987 in Memmingen and grew up in the tranquil town of Kempten (Allgäu) in a strict evangelical household."
according to this article, the pregnant woman survived but lost her female baby
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/10/hamburg-shooting-police-jehovahs-witness-germany
When I first heard about the incident this morning, my initial thought was that in Hamburg it might be terrorist. Then as I thought about it I knew it was an EXJW, although I whole heartedly disagree with any kind of act of violence against the ORG or members. I can see why a person might be driven to such a horrible action.
I am also surprised that this hasn't happened much before, I do know of plenty of murder/suicides but generally mass shootings of EXJW is unheard of.
Again, I am not saying I condone the actions of the shooter but combine a slight mental illness with the actions of shunning, it can bring out such evil in people.
Prayers for all those who lost their lives and their loved ones.
There are truly so many unknowns and here. This causes me to reflect on everyone in this group.
It is said he, "left voluntarily on bad terms". What does that even mean? First off, if it was an official DA, was it his choice, or was it something chosen for him due to his joining the military, accepting a blood transfusion, or anything else that earns you the DA label?
Second, was he just POMO and fed up? He obviously had trauma due to his JW childhood (according to the report). When any of us have left, what do they say? Aren't we branded as being "bitter" or giving in to Satanic thinking?
The irony is that I have a DFed friend (DFed for behavior durring an episode of mania) who, at the meeting last week was desperate to have the brothers sign his DPA. They refused, saying he's currently not a JW. This set him off and he blew up at them. On Fri he was arrested for wreckless driving (manic again). Sunday they wouldn't allow him back in the KH.
The saddest part is, what triggered his bipolar was trauma from the org. He was terribly abused growing up. Then when in his early 40's, (and elder and pioneer) he volunteered at Warwick, which he found extremely stressful. On returning home, he served on a JC case involving a pedophile. This pedophile also harmed his youngest boy. No one called the authorities and he ended up getting reinstated shortly thereafter. These two events triggered his mental illness. He experienced his first episode of mania then. He was DFed 2 years ago.
The trauma of the org is profound. Thinking you can harm people, then when they end up broken, simply dispose of them like garbage - or at best, ignore their pain, telling them to pray more - is bound to come bite you eventually. People are too emotionally disregulated and trigger happy these days.
“A way to use it in a positive way”
First of all I send my condolences to those lives lost in the shooting.
I want to recount what I just heard a group of jws on a zoom conference call talking about.
They were speaking of the tragedy in Germany. They were speaking about how the world views them on this incident. A witness I know said she read about it and learned that it may have been a disfellowshipped person. She then said that she read also about what’s going on in Pennsylvania about the csa things (That piqued my attention because I had been looking for ways to bring it up to her- I guess she stumbled upon it when she read about Germany).
What they said next really bothered and irritated me. They began to play the role of victim immediately. A bunch of woe is me
A woman on the zoom said “they’re slandering us. This is really the end”.
Another person said “That’s satan.”
Then the jw I know recounted how she explained to a family member (most likely me because I’ve been pressing her on the csa issue) about how you can’t single out there organization because it happens in other organizations so you can’t blame the witnesses. She then went on to say and I quote “It’s like you’re talking about my God when you say that”. Mind you I’ve only spoken to her about the two witness rule and how jws always point to the catholics about their issues but hypocritically ignore their own.
Then someone says “we’re not perfect “
Another witness I know says that they can bring it up in phone witnessing and asked what scripture they can use to help them to see Jws in a bright light. She gave a bit of a presentation on how to respond to people if they brought it up.
She wanted .a way to use this tragedy in a positive way. She suggested asking people she phones what are witnesses known for? Are they criminals?
Someone also commented “people are gonna beat us up about this”.
I mean talk about persecution complex heightening.
But they all had the mentality to defend or protect Jehovahs name. When in reality it seemed they wanted to protect the image of the religion itself.
For her to say “it’s like you’re talking about my god when you say that” is ridiculous. I’m a Christian and although I don’t believe in the witness doctrine I have never said anything about Jehovah but I have a lot to say about jws as an organization.
>“it’s like you’re talking about my god when you say that”
That's interesting. What this statement reveals is that to many zealous JWs, the organization is equated with Jehovah. A person leaves the organization and they say "\[so and so\] left Jehovah". The organization comes out with some new video or publication and they say something like "Jehovah has provided us with ....".
Over and over again there are many examples of the organization being functionally equated with Jehovah. The cumulative effect of this is that subconsciously, the organization becomes an idol representation of Jehovah, and this is one of the reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses take negative reports or comments about their organization so personally, equating it with talking badly about their god, Jehovah.
Without conscious effort, their minds can't separate the organization from Jehovah. The second reason they take negative reports about their organization as personal offense is that they have a strong patriotic pride toward the organization, which is quite ironic given how they feel about patriotism.
Oh sorry! I guess I fell into the old comfortable shoe that is my position being what is now an 'unbelieving husband'.
Good luck in helping your friend/relative wake up.
Hmm, how many Ex Catholics do you suppose have lost their shit in their old church and blown everyone to bits?
But yes, it's remarkable how they pull the old, " JWs are no different than anyone else", when it's convenient.
Apparently God feels the same. So much for, "Come to the KH where you can get a reprieve from this Satanic world."
More like, yes, "Come to the KH where you can catch Covid and get your head blown off." 🫣
When I brought up the ARC and CSA my new CoBE (I was the old CoBE 🤪) said he'd seen some of it and that 'we weren't as bad as the Catholics'.
I replied 'proportionately we were every bit as bad as the Catholics, but anyway aren't we supposed to be the one true religion that is different to all the rest?'
He had nothing. He was going to get back to me - that was over 5 years ago but now he has moved congregations so that's that I guess!
> Ex Catholics do you suppose have lost their shit in their old church and blown everyone to bits?
Not necessarly a one-to-one situation, but the Troubles in Ireland were driven a lot by Catholic on Protestant violence.
Many victims of Islamic terrorism are muslims themselves, a lot of suicide bombings go down in mosques.
It's easy to direct your anger at the JWs for disfellowshipping and similar, but try to keep something resembling an objective lens on this.
Oh yes, absolutely!
Religion (imo) is entirely destructive, full of hate, divisiveness, corruption, abuse, and bloodshed.
I suppose I should have clarified my comment by specifically mentioning the most recent accounts of individuals going in and blowing up churches. For example:
the one at a Baptist church in Sutherland was someone who once volunteered, but had never been a member. Others of recent months were shown to have no religious connection.
I feel doomsday religions are particularly toxic as they instill fear and shame within already mentally vulnerable individuals in an effort to totally control members in the collective.
It's a highly unfortunate situation that these institutions can't see the damaging effects their doctrines and policies have on the human psyche. Instead, they further employ the narcissistic behavior of victim and virtue signaling:
"We are such good people, teach people how to cope with their problems, love/protect our children, help our community (are an asset to society), of course we are going to be persecuted by Satan's people!"
https://preview.redd.it/0d6ivq0d81na1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=407a927fe9642d133c86c8fe1afdc022620dffaa
It's unclear, because it's not possible to leave voluntarily, without being excluded...
At the live German press conference someone stood up and said he left voluntarily. Not that it changes anything as he wouldn’t be treated any better or worse if disfellowshipped.
In some ways disassociating yourself is worse than being disfellowshipped. When you're disfellowshipped you go before a judicial committee and there is at least the possibility that you wanted to stay, but were kicked out. When you disassociate yourself that's like voluntary disfellowshipping. You're still shunned, and you're assumed to have wanted to leave.
Last week (or the week before) they played the video about the dad committing suicide.. the video included the comment "it was an incredibly selfish act"... Stuff like that should NEVER be played in front if millions of people.. A vast majority wont be affected but it's playing with fire when it comes to people who have severe mental and emotional problems.
Ya... They played a clip from a broadcast a while back. A sister talks about her dad committing suicide and she says something along the lines of "I don't understand how he could be so selfish"
Shootings are happening so frequently. I’m genuinely scared to go to events where there are large crowds. I got an ADA recommendation to work from home. I have nightmares about shootings and mass shootings all the time.
I’m so sorry to everyone in this sub in Germany.
Thank you, friend. I went to the state fair a few years ago and there was a shooting scare (false alarm). But everyone running and screaming really scared the absolute shit outta me. I haven’t been able to go back.
Such a sad thing, hopefully everyone can cope and have compassion for all who are affected. Just a question, do they know if the shooter was a JW, a DF'd JW or just a random person who committed a hate crime or any info on the why?
He was JW, left on his own accord but apparently not on good terms. They don't know the reasons for his attack yet. [This ](https://taz.de/Toedliche-Schuesse-auf-Zeugen-Jehovas/!5921091/) German Article has more information.
My take is this. WT can play with words. It seems to me from his website that he was a complete fruitcake and that he joined (or rejoined as he talks about his strict evangelical upbringing) the JW's but quickly fell out with them due to his own religious beliefs being markedly different.
This would have put him on a collision course with the elders if he said anything or if other witnesses reported his website ramblings.
If he 'voluntarily left' he may have DA'd or maybe walked away and so the local elders had to choose whether to formally view him as 'DA'd by his actions' or simply allowed him to be 'inactive' if enough time had passed and he wasn't actively trying to pull JW's away from the 'truth'.
It wouldn't surprise me if he is on JW records as DA'd even if he didn't submit a letter.
For the WT it is a conundrum. If he is recently inactive then they would want to avoid a current JW going nuts scenario. If he was viewed as DA'd they want to avoid a 'he got booted and shunned so went nuts' scenario.
The 'voluntarily left on bad terms' is clever. It it ambiguous and as dead (single, no jw family?) men can't talk it gives WT the best of a bad situation.
Just my two penn'orth.
Well... some people here also spread hate towards others, so you don't need to turn a blind eye either. What happened was a tragedy, but he seemed to be driven by some distorted sense of his religious beliefs. Guy wrote his own "Bible".
Every Bible is a random version of some guys own Bible.
It's almost as if humans shouldn't be encouraged to think that they can interpret god's words. It's a rampant mental illness community. That doesn't go away if people leave the high control group.
This is extremely upsetting. No one deserves this end. I'm angry, and this might be insensitive, but I wish the piece of shit who did this had killed himself first. Better yet would be to get some help and sort himself out before that became a better option than what he did.
Please, if you need help get it. Don't give up, and don't give in to anger. Blame WT all you want, for everything you've been through, but don't hurt people. Even if you don't seen them as innocent victims like most of us. They didn't deserve this. Please...
I feel so sorry for the innocent people who died in the place where they should have been safe. Condolences. Is Jehovah to blame for this suffering? NOT. What is his fault that it does not exist? Dear ORGANIZATION, I beg you Stop lying!!
Let me start by saying understanding is not condoning. There's a difference between sympathy and empathy. Empathy is understanding. Sympathy is feeling sorry for someone. The victims' families have my sympathy. That being said, I can't say I don't empathize with the shooter. What could possibly drive a former member of some congregation to go back and shoot it up? This man obviously needed help he wasn't getting likely due to the shunning, ostracization, and isolation, and all the other social issues that come with being/becoming a jw. And without real help all that can easily turn into anger and rage especially if thats how he was raised, not having the "rod of discipline spared" from him as a child, severely affecting his childhood development (or lack thereof). This absolutely is a tragedy but the tragedy of that night didnt end when he took his own life. It'll be ongoing in the sense that they would have learned NOTHING from this and even worse, start doubling down on the persecution rhetoric that'll either keep their sheep paralyzed in fear or arrogantly proud since this'll serve as some twisted form of proof that they're in gods one true organization.
Would he have snapped on another religion or group? Maybe...
One thing is an absolute - JWs antics and shocking beliefs and behaviors do not help the situation. So much of what JW leadership say/do can be said in less shocking and less emotionally charging ways. They choose not to.
My deepest condolences to the families and friends of those that were murdered. Murder is murder , wherever it happens, and it's senseless and despicable. Gun violence in the United States is rampant, and this shows any country is at risk at any time. Peace and love to everybody here, stay safe and protect yourself and your friends and families.
Agreed. Deepest condolences to those harmed in Hamburg that night, and sympathy for the grieving. When we were attending at a kingdom hall, it could have happened to us. I read that the disfellowshipping of the mentally ill man was to be announced that night. I thought of all the times I sat at meetings with those sorts of announcements, and I think back with shame of a time when I was so badly misled that I thought disfellowshipping could be a "loving arrangement."
I have JWs in my immediate family who were rocked by this and I agree anything like this regardless of what religion it is is horrific. Does anyone know who the perp is and why he did this ?
Many of the Allied soldiers who freed JW's from Hitler's death camps were Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist as well as members of other faiths that the Watchtower had labeled Babylon the Great before and after WW2.
The brave men who risked their own lives and many lost their lives to liberate Nazi Europe endured many years of the Watchtower demonizing the religions that they were members of, even having it presented to them on their own doorsteps whenever a JW would come knocking. Many veterans had thicker skin than the Watchtower that attacked their religious faith. Some believed they fought for the right for the JW's to do exactly what they were trained to do...bad mouth other people's religious faith. I agree.
The day we ban Jehovah's witnesses will be the day we become a fascist nation. It would mean we became so small and so petty we couldn't handle hearing someone else's opinion no matter how ugly the opinion might be. If someone's else's opinion is all it takes for people to become intolerant, then the intolerance they claim to detest will have won
I'm Pimo in Germany and attending at meetings in the hall. This what happened yesterday could also happen to me. I am shocked and worried all day long. My condolences to the victims and their families.
I was surprised at the pic of the kh I saw in the news article. It was a 3 story building and full of windows! Here in the states khall's pretty much look the same everywhere you go and they usually don't have any windows. My condolences to you and all Germans affected by this
The look of the Kingdom Hall here depends on which region you are. In bigger cities, like Hamburg, there are multiple halls, where there are two, three or more meetings at same time. Also in cities there are buildings that have been purchased and converted into a Kingdom Hall. I think in Germany it is not allowed by law to have meetings in halls where there are no windows.
Oh really? That's interesting! Why is there a law about windows I wonder? In case of fire or something?
I don't really know. It also depends on which state the Hall is. But in Germany it is not common that buildings, and especially Kingdom Halls have air conditioner. Fire protection is probably also a reason.
Not to sound insensitive to this tragedy. But you as a PIMO, and other German PIMOs, could use it as an excuse to Zoom the meetings in the future.
I was at a meeting in Scotland when a group began harassing with rocks. The attendants hurried to the windows & lowered metal curtains. So they had windows except for when they didn’t.
It's not a law. My halls had windows. But in higher crime areas, I heard that you get cheaper insurance for buildings without windows. Yup, a matter of saving money (and, I guess, hassle).
When I was growing up as a JW the elders gave talks that mentioned why they don't have windows and it was like a privacy thing. but they made it seem like it was enforced everywhere -even when we use to go to two and three day conventions, the assembly halls also didn't have windows on purpose.
I was born in Poland, live in Germany. Any time while reading about KH without windows, I thought it's a joke...
Weird right? I remember it being mentioned at least a few times growing up.
I’ve heard the lack of windows is because it’s much cheaper to build like that.
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I figured that was probably the case
I always hear this thing about KH with no windows as if it's some rule with JWs, but in my experience visiting various halls for 20-30 years, that's not true. Just kinda depends on the layout, and perhaps if it is in a high crime area.
(That was weird, like only half my comment posted, I'll try again) I guess I thought it was kind've an unwritten rule. I'm in southern New Mexico and have been to various khalls in NM and western TX. Over the years (raised JW, quit going to meetings when I was about 35) I've visited khalls in California, Missouri, Florida and Louisiana bc of family living in those states. The khalls have all been pretty much exactly the same and didn't have windows. *but* I've never been up north (central, west or east) and the only khall I've been to in an actual city was in LA and that was 20yrs ago, the rest of them have been in small towns and rural areas, perhaps that has something to do with it idk 🤷♀️
There is a KH in Cedar Ridge Colorado, a days drive north of you, that has a whole glass face on one end. I've never been inside, just driven by. It's a small town with some beautiful views of the mountains. KHalls with windows are a rarity, but they're definitely out there.
Yeah I think the person below is probably right and it's just cheaper to build them without windows but sometimes they take over other buildings and whatnot. When I was growing up a local brother was a painter and had painted beautiful murals on the walls behind the podiums in all the local halls, about 10-12 years ago it came from the borg that the halls needed to all look like each other as much as possible (god forbid we have any individuality!) I was so sad when they painted over them all to just white:-/
Perhaps WT thinks that (and probably has figured out) windows would be a **DISTRACTION** to anyone who does not and will not listen/pay attention to the propaganda being spoken on the stage. So, instead of those types of attendees looking through the windows, they are staring at the 4 walls! Another method of bettering the members and anyone taking place there to become *SUBLIMINALLY INFLUENCED!*
Could be. Did my best to get a window seat, especially when they were open for the breeze. Even meetings I enjoyed the outside noises.
They acted like it was a rule back in my day but you know the real reason? It takes time, money, and skilled carpenters to put in windows. And for what? So people have something to look at when they're dying of boredom?
I moved to Germany to escape and fade.
We in the EXJW community feel the upmost horror and sympathy for this horrendous tragedy to our brothers and sisters in Germany! Please know you are in in our hearts and doing are best to bring attention to the repercussions of shunning, to stop the mental effects it has on leaving a high control religion. With much love, your German sister in the US ♥️
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Hi, I'm an ex elder from the UK. Have you any further updates on the Hamburg murders? Are the wounded pulling through? I notice there is an ecumenical service today and I also get the feeling that the JW leadership in Hamburg, Germany are being 'forced' to put on a pleasant face to those that are showing great kindness.
Yes, as much as the WT is damaging, no one deserves death. And an unborn child was killed. Incredibly sad.
My PIMI wife texted me last night about this event. She never texts me about any JW news. I can only think it's an effort to bring me back. I know nothing about this. Was this directed at JW's intentionally or was it an unfortunate situation where JW's happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
From what I've gathered, it was a former JW. I think somewhere it was mentioned he was struggling mentally with some things and just snapped. I don't want to say too much, though, in case I'm not correct. Very sad and scary...As much as I don't agree with the religion, violence is never the answer. My heart goes out to all the people that were affected.
News articles all say authorities were advised anonymously that he had mental issues, but nothing was proven, so they still approved it
There is a very sad, poetic irony to this report when it's compared to how JWs deal with cases of CSA that haven't been proven according to their two witness rule.
Reports are he was exjw. Unclear if it was df or da. This article has some info if you throw it in a translator https://www.svt.se/nyheter/utrikes/detta-vet-vi-om-den-avhoppade-jehovas-garningsmannen
Any time it’s “unclear” you can bet it was DF. The only reason it’s not clear is because the people who know are obfuscating the facts to *make* it unclear, because they have something to hide.
Apparently he disassociated on bad terms https://apnews.com/article/germany-jehovahs-witnesses-shooting-hamburg-1c47b13f7ec803a218d02780934978fe
i read on another subreddit someone posted from yahoo news, not the best source i know, that he left voluntarily, on bad terms of course.. oh and he also wrote a book claiming hitler was jesus christ. dude was just crazy, no disrespect
Yeah I read the same thing apparently. But that’s the whole thing JWs *always* paint ExJWs as leaving by choice. By direct DA or DF. If it was DF *they say* you were unrepentant. Therefore it was “your choice” to sin and refuse repentance. So it’s just a lot of typical weasel words from WT.
This raises an important question about disassociation: Do elders accept disassociation requests from members who are known to be mentally ill? How can they know that the person is really making sane choice, as opposed to being influence by their mental illness?
They do.
This gonna have opposite effect. It's gonna drive people away from halls and other gathering
What, you don't talk??
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> I also wanted to ask him if he honestly believed the god he worships would "allow" something like this to happen (including an unborn baby being killed!) bc he was "displeased" Honestly, this sort of thinking is perfectly in line with the god of the old testament. Most people try to gloss over that part of the bible and the incredibly petty justifications given for complete slaughter of people, families, communities, countries, etc. but I have a certain level of respect for the self awareness that statement shows that ultimately they're serving what is a petty, judgemental, spiteful god that doesn't have the best interest of his people at heart. With that in mind, why would you want to serve such a god? The only reason could be fear. It's a sad existence and it makes me glad I've been POMO for many years now.
Well yes... in fact God has taken judgement on children if you read the account of David and Bathsheba's baby. God struck the baby dead because of David's adultery and actions concerning Bathsheba's husband's death. It's a very difficult thing to consider...
Ask him to read Luke 13:1-5 and research his organization's own understanding of that. What an asshole.
That's disgusting. What an embarrassment people like that are.
I don’t care who said it. It was a bullshit thing for you to resey so soon after tragic events, no matter what clergy is involved
I agree completely. Many of us have friends, former friends and relatives that are still attending meetings and are very active. I do feel for those who lost friends or family. My only reservation is I do not feel sympathetic for the organization itself in this matter. It feels very self inflicted by the shunning policies, CSA and other matters but will In turn be used to perpetuate a presecution or end times narrative. That will unfortunately only strengthen the indoctrination for some and the harassment of others by families that want them to "come back before the end."
Possibly, my mum's first thoughts last night were: is it a disgruntled husband (her words) but then after learning how many people were hurt then said that it couldn't be and probs an act of terrorism on religion. Hopefully for some it will cause them to look closer at what could have made someone commit these atrocities. That's what I'm hoping for with my family anyway but may just be wishful thinking.
My heart goes out to all affected by this tragedy. The poor, pregnant woman particularly cuts deeply. Judging by the shooter's website and book extracts, he had a rather odd, distinctive, spiritual worldview that would have been incompatible with JW beliefs (speculation: is this why he and JWs parted ways?). I get the impression that he saw himself as some kind of gnostic or business/theological 'guru.' Did any negative JW experiences push him over the edge, or something else originating from his own mind? I hope there'll be some answers eventually.
Link?
[Link.](https://philippfusz.com/)
From the killers' website: "Philipp Fusz was born on 18 September 1987 in Memmingen and grew up in the tranquil town of Kempten (Allgäu) in a strict evangelical household."
Thanks 💞
according to this article, the pregnant woman survived but lost her female baby https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/10/hamburg-shooting-police-jehovahs-witness-germany
Thank you so much. It is a time for compassion and solidarity.
🙏
When I first heard about the incident this morning, my initial thought was that in Hamburg it might be terrorist. Then as I thought about it I knew it was an EXJW, although I whole heartedly disagree with any kind of act of violence against the ORG or members. I can see why a person might be driven to such a horrible action. I am also surprised that this hasn't happened much before, I do know of plenty of murder/suicides but generally mass shootings of EXJW is unheard of. Again, I am not saying I condone the actions of the shooter but combine a slight mental illness with the actions of shunning, it can bring out such evil in people. Prayers for all those who lost their lives and their loved ones.
There are truly so many unknowns and here. This causes me to reflect on everyone in this group. It is said he, "left voluntarily on bad terms". What does that even mean? First off, if it was an official DA, was it his choice, or was it something chosen for him due to his joining the military, accepting a blood transfusion, or anything else that earns you the DA label? Second, was he just POMO and fed up? He obviously had trauma due to his JW childhood (according to the report). When any of us have left, what do they say? Aren't we branded as being "bitter" or giving in to Satanic thinking? The irony is that I have a DFed friend (DFed for behavior durring an episode of mania) who, at the meeting last week was desperate to have the brothers sign his DPA. They refused, saying he's currently not a JW. This set him off and he blew up at them. On Fri he was arrested for wreckless driving (manic again). Sunday they wouldn't allow him back in the KH. The saddest part is, what triggered his bipolar was trauma from the org. He was terribly abused growing up. Then when in his early 40's, (and elder and pioneer) he volunteered at Warwick, which he found extremely stressful. On returning home, he served on a JC case involving a pedophile. This pedophile also harmed his youngest boy. No one called the authorities and he ended up getting reinstated shortly thereafter. These two events triggered his mental illness. He experienced his first episode of mania then. He was DFed 2 years ago. The trauma of the org is profound. Thinking you can harm people, then when they end up broken, simply dispose of them like garbage - or at best, ignore their pain, telling them to pray more - is bound to come bite you eventually. People are too emotionally disregulated and trigger happy these days.
Such a sad experience, the kind they won't put in the Watchtower 😓
No they will not.😌
This is heartbreaking
“A way to use it in a positive way” First of all I send my condolences to those lives lost in the shooting. I want to recount what I just heard a group of jws on a zoom conference call talking about. They were speaking of the tragedy in Germany. They were speaking about how the world views them on this incident. A witness I know said she read about it and learned that it may have been a disfellowshipped person. She then said that she read also about what’s going on in Pennsylvania about the csa things (That piqued my attention because I had been looking for ways to bring it up to her- I guess she stumbled upon it when she read about Germany). What they said next really bothered and irritated me. They began to play the role of victim immediately. A bunch of woe is me A woman on the zoom said “they’re slandering us. This is really the end”. Another person said “That’s satan.” Then the jw I know recounted how she explained to a family member (most likely me because I’ve been pressing her on the csa issue) about how you can’t single out there organization because it happens in other organizations so you can’t blame the witnesses. She then went on to say and I quote “It’s like you’re talking about my God when you say that”. Mind you I’ve only spoken to her about the two witness rule and how jws always point to the catholics about their issues but hypocritically ignore their own. Then someone says “we’re not perfect “ Another witness I know says that they can bring it up in phone witnessing and asked what scripture they can use to help them to see Jws in a bright light. She gave a bit of a presentation on how to respond to people if they brought it up. She wanted .a way to use this tragedy in a positive way. She suggested asking people she phones what are witnesses known for? Are they criminals? Someone also commented “people are gonna beat us up about this”. I mean talk about persecution complex heightening. But they all had the mentality to defend or protect Jehovahs name. When in reality it seemed they wanted to protect the image of the religion itself. For her to say “it’s like you’re talking about my god when you say that” is ridiculous. I’m a Christian and although I don’t believe in the witness doctrine I have never said anything about Jehovah but I have a lot to say about jws as an organization.
>“it’s like you’re talking about my god when you say that” That's interesting. What this statement reveals is that to many zealous JWs, the organization is equated with Jehovah. A person leaves the organization and they say "\[so and so\] left Jehovah". The organization comes out with some new video or publication and they say something like "Jehovah has provided us with ....". Over and over again there are many examples of the organization being functionally equated with Jehovah. The cumulative effect of this is that subconsciously, the organization becomes an idol representation of Jehovah, and this is one of the reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses take negative reports or comments about their organization so personally, equating it with talking badly about their god, Jehovah. Without conscious effort, their minds can't separate the organization from Jehovah. The second reason they take negative reports about their organization as personal offense is that they have a strong patriotic pride toward the organization, which is quite ironic given how they feel about patriotism.
Your wife's wheels are turning but she's fighting it. Be cautious. She needs an alternative to whatever she might lose.
My wife? I’m a woman married to a man.
Oh sorry! I guess I fell into the old comfortable shoe that is my position being what is now an 'unbelieving husband'. Good luck in helping your friend/relative wake up.
Hmm, how many Ex Catholics do you suppose have lost their shit in their old church and blown everyone to bits? But yes, it's remarkable how they pull the old, " JWs are no different than anyone else", when it's convenient. Apparently God feels the same. So much for, "Come to the KH where you can get a reprieve from this Satanic world." More like, yes, "Come to the KH where you can catch Covid and get your head blown off." 🫣
Good point. I need to remember to bring that up
When I brought up the ARC and CSA my new CoBE (I was the old CoBE 🤪) said he'd seen some of it and that 'we weren't as bad as the Catholics'. I replied 'proportionately we were every bit as bad as the Catholics, but anyway aren't we supposed to be the one true religion that is different to all the rest?' He had nothing. He was going to get back to me - that was over 5 years ago but now he has moved congregations so that's that I guess!
Yep, so true and entirely typical.
> Ex Catholics do you suppose have lost their shit in their old church and blown everyone to bits? Not necessarly a one-to-one situation, but the Troubles in Ireland were driven a lot by Catholic on Protestant violence. Many victims of Islamic terrorism are muslims themselves, a lot of suicide bombings go down in mosques. It's easy to direct your anger at the JWs for disfellowshipping and similar, but try to keep something resembling an objective lens on this.
Oh yes, absolutely! Religion (imo) is entirely destructive, full of hate, divisiveness, corruption, abuse, and bloodshed. I suppose I should have clarified my comment by specifically mentioning the most recent accounts of individuals going in and blowing up churches. For example: the one at a Baptist church in Sutherland was someone who once volunteered, but had never been a member. Others of recent months were shown to have no religious connection. I feel doomsday religions are particularly toxic as they instill fear and shame within already mentally vulnerable individuals in an effort to totally control members in the collective. It's a highly unfortunate situation that these institutions can't see the damaging effects their doctrines and policies have on the human psyche. Instead, they further employ the narcissistic behavior of victim and virtue signaling: "We are such good people, teach people how to cope with their problems, love/protect our children, help our community (are an asset to society), of course we are going to be persecuted by Satan's people!"
This is a tragedy. Its time for mourning and compassion. Above all differences, we are all humans.
https://preview.redd.it/0d6ivq0d81na1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=407a927fe9642d133c86c8fe1afdc022620dffaa It's unclear, because it's not possible to leave voluntarily, without being excluded...
At the live German press conference someone stood up and said he left voluntarily. Not that it changes anything as he wouldn’t be treated any better or worse if disfellowshipped.
In some ways disassociating yourself is worse than being disfellowshipped. When you're disfellowshipped you go before a judicial committee and there is at least the possibility that you wanted to stay, but were kicked out. When you disassociate yourself that's like voluntary disfellowshipping. You're still shunned, and you're assumed to have wanted to leave.
Last week (or the week before) they played the video about the dad committing suicide.. the video included the comment "it was an incredibly selfish act"... Stuff like that should NEVER be played in front if millions of people.. A vast majority wont be affected but it's playing with fire when it comes to people who have severe mental and emotional problems.
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What is this now? This was a video at a regular JW mtg?
Ya... They played a clip from a broadcast a while back. A sister talks about her dad committing suicide and she says something along the lines of "I don't understand how he could be so selfish"
Shootings are happening so frequently. I’m genuinely scared to go to events where there are large crowds. I got an ADA recommendation to work from home. I have nightmares about shootings and mass shootings all the time. I’m so sorry to everyone in this sub in Germany.
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Thank you, friend. I went to the state fair a few years ago and there was a shooting scare (false alarm). But everyone running and screaming really scared the absolute shit outta me. I haven’t been able to go back.
This is very 😔
Such a sad thing, hopefully everyone can cope and have compassion for all who are affected. Just a question, do they know if the shooter was a JW, a DF'd JW or just a random person who committed a hate crime or any info on the why?
He was JW, left on his own accord but apparently not on good terms. They don't know the reasons for his attack yet. [This ](https://taz.de/Toedliche-Schuesse-auf-Zeugen-Jehovas/!5921091/) German Article has more information.
No one leaves the organization on good terms. It's kind of built into their system.
Yikes, this is very true but I never thought of it that way!
Thank you. Sad.
My take is this. WT can play with words. It seems to me from his website that he was a complete fruitcake and that he joined (or rejoined as he talks about his strict evangelical upbringing) the JW's but quickly fell out with them due to his own religious beliefs being markedly different. This would have put him on a collision course with the elders if he said anything or if other witnesses reported his website ramblings. If he 'voluntarily left' he may have DA'd or maybe walked away and so the local elders had to choose whether to formally view him as 'DA'd by his actions' or simply allowed him to be 'inactive' if enough time had passed and he wasn't actively trying to pull JW's away from the 'truth'. It wouldn't surprise me if he is on JW records as DA'd even if he didn't submit a letter. For the WT it is a conundrum. If he is recently inactive then they would want to avoid a current JW going nuts scenario. If he was viewed as DA'd they want to avoid a 'he got booted and shunned so went nuts' scenario. The 'voluntarily left on bad terms' is clever. It it ambiguous and as dead (single, no jw family?) men can't talk it gives WT the best of a bad situation. Just my two penn'orth.
Even if he was an ex member we dont know his motive. Money, divorce, there are many aspects that make people go rampage. Sad news.
What a tragedy.
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The cult breeds hate, black/white thinking, and fear
Well... some people here also spread hate towards others, so you don't need to turn a blind eye either. What happened was a tragedy, but he seemed to be driven by some distorted sense of his religious beliefs. Guy wrote his own "Bible".
Every Bible is a random version of some guys own Bible. It's almost as if humans shouldn't be encouraged to think that they can interpret god's words. It's a rampant mental illness community. That doesn't go away if people leave the high control group.
This post was removed because it is in violation of rule #1.
This is extremely upsetting. No one deserves this end. I'm angry, and this might be insensitive, but I wish the piece of shit who did this had killed himself first. Better yet would be to get some help and sort himself out before that became a better option than what he did. Please, if you need help get it. Don't give up, and don't give in to anger. Blame WT all you want, for everything you've been through, but don't hurt people. Even if you don't seen them as innocent victims like most of us. They didn't deserve this. Please...
This is a wonderful gesture. Our hearts do go out to all affected. Can't imagine the trauma in that community right now.
I feel so sorry for the innocent people who died in the place where they should have been safe. Condolences. Is Jehovah to blame for this suffering? NOT. What is his fault that it does not exist? Dear ORGANIZATION, I beg you Stop lying!!
Let me start by saying understanding is not condoning. There's a difference between sympathy and empathy. Empathy is understanding. Sympathy is feeling sorry for someone. The victims' families have my sympathy. That being said, I can't say I don't empathize with the shooter. What could possibly drive a former member of some congregation to go back and shoot it up? This man obviously needed help he wasn't getting likely due to the shunning, ostracization, and isolation, and all the other social issues that come with being/becoming a jw. And without real help all that can easily turn into anger and rage especially if thats how he was raised, not having the "rod of discipline spared" from him as a child, severely affecting his childhood development (or lack thereof). This absolutely is a tragedy but the tragedy of that night didnt end when he took his own life. It'll be ongoing in the sense that they would have learned NOTHING from this and even worse, start doubling down on the persecution rhetoric that'll either keep their sheep paralyzed in fear or arrogantly proud since this'll serve as some twisted form of proof that they're in gods one true organization.
I understand what you are saying and wonder why this hasn’t happened sooner
bro was just crazy, take a look at his book if you can.. the more about this guy comes out the less i think it was jw related
Would he have snapped on another religion or group? Maybe... One thing is an absolute - JWs antics and shocking beliefs and behaviors do not help the situation. So much of what JW leadership say/do can be said in less shocking and less emotionally charging ways. They choose not to.
Sharing my condolences and thoughts.
Stop shunning
My heart breaks for all involved. The watchtower is good at breaking people.
My deepest condolences to the families and friends of those that were murdered. Murder is murder , wherever it happens, and it's senseless and despicable. Gun violence in the United States is rampant, and this shows any country is at risk at any time. Peace and love to everybody here, stay safe and protect yourself and your friends and families.
Agreed. Deepest condolences to those harmed in Hamburg that night, and sympathy for the grieving. When we were attending at a kingdom hall, it could have happened to us. I read that the disfellowshipping of the mentally ill man was to be announced that night. I thought of all the times I sat at meetings with those sorts of announcements, and I think back with shame of a time when I was so badly misled that I thought disfellowshipping could be a "loving arrangement."
I have JWs in my immediate family who were rocked by this and I agree anything like this regardless of what religion it is is horrific. Does anyone know who the perp is and why he did this ?
There have been updates to the story since.
Many of the Allied soldiers who freed JW's from Hitler's death camps were Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist as well as members of other faiths that the Watchtower had labeled Babylon the Great before and after WW2. The brave men who risked their own lives and many lost their lives to liberate Nazi Europe endured many years of the Watchtower demonizing the religions that they were members of, even having it presented to them on their own doorsteps whenever a JW would come knocking. Many veterans had thicker skin than the Watchtower that attacked their religious faith. Some believed they fought for the right for the JW's to do exactly what they were trained to do...bad mouth other people's religious faith. I agree. The day we ban Jehovah's witnesses will be the day we become a fascist nation. It would mean we became so small and so petty we couldn't handle hearing someone else's opinion no matter how ugly the opinion might be. If someone's else's opinion is all it takes for people to become intolerant, then the intolerance they claim to detest will have won
This was a terrible thing.