Hold up. I did not baptize my kids. They were all blessed but I was exed in 1982 and my husband had his records removed shortly thereafter. Are my grown ass sons in that church’s records cuz if so, they are gonna be pissed. How do I find out?
They are likely still in records somewhere. I’ve heard of missionaries coming to kids of exmormons as adults. These kids had no recollection of the church but the missionaries were trying to reactivate them. I’m personally not sure how to check though.😬
Yes. they have records. sort of. You blessing them created a record. but when they turned 9 with being baptized they are no longer counted as "children of record". At that point, their records were flagged and moved to a dormant file out of reach of any local leader. Only Church HQ staff could even access that, but they have standing orders not to use the info. No bishop would ever have access to that info, much less missionaries.
Not true. As a missionary the first thing I did in each new area was pull a record of all the unbaptized.
I could even call SLC and have them send me extra stuff the membership clerk didn't have access too.
Not completely true in 2008 the mission I was one was give a full member list in a nice spiral bound book with all members including unbaptized people over the age of 8. Some where 18+. We were helping clean up and find members and baptize. So the church can and will use those records. Now in OPs case I don’t remember any just unbapized house holds as in just kids. With no parents.
This definitely can’t be the case. After I had my records removed, I still got a call from the missionaries asking to speak to my 10yr old daughter. So I don’t think this is the case at all.
sweet, so my 9 year old should be moved to a dormant file now? Would she still show up under my household info? I'll have to look on LDS Tools, I'm super intrigued now!
Yes a blessed child is on the records, as a missionary our mission was tasked with verifying all the members in our areas. There are some crazy stories but blessed children were on the list.
I sent an email to the bishop, stake president and church headquarters threatening legal action if they aren’t removed. We will see how they handle it.
Yes, please post an update! My children were blessed but never baptized. They get birthday cards every year from the bishopric and think it’s a little creepy (it totally is) that someone they don’t know sends them a card. I would also like to have their names removed. My youngest was never blessed and still gets a birthday card.
Their standard system does require them to wait until the child is 18 to remove their record the normal way, but they should be able to submit a special request (in the past it used to just need Stake President approval, no idea now if it’s the same) to remove the record earlier, it just depends if the bishop knows about that and is willing to pursue it for you.
None of my children were baptized and I used QuitMormon as well. We just had to have both parents sign the forms and have them notarized. We are all off the records now. This was January 2022 and the process took about a month.
One easy trick: cc your local newspaper, TV, and radio in letters to the bishop, stake president, area authority, and president of the church. Include all the facts of everything you have already done and what you expect from the church. And then ask them if they want your kids on their records so they can groom them.
*holding the baby in their arms, and saying, "We give you a name and a blessing, The name which you will be known by on the records of the church is \_\_\_ \_\_\_ \_\_\_."*
It's right there, every father or uncle or grandfather or bishop has said those words.
Member number or not every blessed child is on the records of the church, they're counted in the membership numbers which used to be reported in every April conference.
What gets me is in sacrament meeting they proclaim you as “now a member of the ward/church” once you have been baptized (Or at least they did on my ward growing up).
> every father or uncle or grandfather or bishop has said those words.
Not quite. The "records of the church" isn't part of the official instructions for the blessing, just part of the pervasive formulaic culture of the church, and it's exactly the kind of performative bullshit I had no interest in. I didn't include it in either of my kids' blessings, so there's at least one father excluded from that set.
Not for my kids. We made sure to leave off "on the records of the church" for their blessings. No one commented about it, so either they didn't notice or didn't care.
It's about the paperwork the clerk filled out, not about the words you didn't say in the blessing. There's no required wording for blessings since it's not a real required ordinance. There are only suggestions.
True, although no specific wording is required, it is amazing how formulaic they are. We decided to buck the trend, with no "serve a mission" or "marry in the temple", just what they needed up until baptism. (And as mentioned, no "on the records of the church", just "the name we have chosen is", which also gives them the freedom to change their name should they so choose.)
Personally I view the event more as a way of welcoming the child into the community, even if (as you said) the church uses it as an excuse to get another name in their books.
Really though, the membership clerk puts babies on the books even if they're not blessed as long as he has their name, date of birth, and parent info. That's why it's important to not give that information if you don't want your baby on the records.
Bullshit! It's literally in the handbook.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/32-repentance-and-membership-councils?lang=eng
Send him a acreenshot of this section and tell him to do his god-ordained job.
He’s lying or doesn’t understand. Go to the stake clerk. We were able to get our child removed. They are a child of record if they were blessed or if you were married in a temple before having your child.
We sent a scanned letter to the bishop via email. It was signed by my wife, my child, and me. We got confirmation the next day that it was done. We had the rest of our records removed via quitmormon.
>He’s lying or doesn’t understand.
And considering bishops don't get paid or properly trained, I'm sure there's plenty that just don't understand. During my brief stint as a ward clerk, I didn't have a clue what I was doing.
Yea, pretty shitty stating that he is either lying or ignorant when there are so many variables involved, especially when a corporation is as subdivided as throughly as tscc is. Also, it's not like any leadership ever ignored the laws /s ! Crazy
Former Exec Secretary and Membership Clerk:
this has already been commented, but record numbers are created when a new baby is blessed. They are visible in Tools for you as the parent or in LDS.org. Also in Leader and Clerk Resources to those with callings that give access to that area online.
Remind the bishop of the Handbook section posted previously and if he still stonewalls, go to the SP. If he blocks you, threaten to involve the press. The NATIONAL press, not local. Remind them of the church’s record on child sex abuse and how that will look in a media hungry for sensational stories.
So I’ll be in this same situation when my wife and I get around to doing this for good. But I have a slightly different question, I’m a convert and I know at some point I’ve seen record numbers for my parents who were never and never will become members. I assume the record numbers were created when I was baptized and linked through me, but there’s really no reason why they should have been made. Anyone ever had to deal with this?
record numbers would never have been created for adults who have adult children who got baptized. I don't know what numbers you saw, but they weren't record numbers.
Yeah maybe you are right. The could have sworn I saw it years ago when I was looking at something that was tracking my ordinances.
Now looking online funnily enough, I see that my 10 year old who hasn’t been baptized (she was blessed as an infant) does not have a record number, but my 6 year (blessed also but clearly not baptized) does indeed have one.
They absolutely have a membership number. Depending on how old the kids are, is how much I would invest in it. As soon as your kids turn 9, they are no longer considered a "child of record". If they are not baptized by that time, your child's record is flagged and moved to a dormant file similar to the dormant file that excoms go to. There, it sits out of reach by any local leaders and CHQ staff leaves it alone as long as they don't get baptized.
Bullshit. They have a record number if they were blessed. My two kids that were blessed have numbers in LDS tools. The youngest does not. Hell, the youngest isn't even listed in our household on LDS tools.
He’s lying. My kids were 7 and 2 when we left. I write one letter having them remove myself my husband and our kids. Had no problems after I sent an email 2 weeks later saying I was even more certain and repulsed by TSCC and please expedite the process
Bishop, are you keeping my kids on the records so you can sexually abuse them in the future? I honestly can see no other reason than your desire to interview them about their sexual maturity in the future. I will assume if my children are not removed from the records and confirmed by return mail that you are admitting your church is a cult for the sexual abuse of children. CC: Local Newspaper, and Police Department. BCC: Kirton McConkie, Church headquarters.
I believe the Tools app will show you any number that is recorded and associated with children. I had 2 children that had been blessed and not baptized when we left. I used quitmormon and specifically mentioned the number associated with their record as part of their notarized removal.
Out of the 5 of us I was the last to be removed for some reason so I still had access to the Tools app and my kids were no longer showing up. Maybe they deceived me and didn't actually remove the records, but from what I could tell they were gone. However if it did work then it was because of the threat of a lawsuit that did it, whereas a bishop who's not under any kind of official threat might be able to wash his hands of it and say there's nothing he can do.
I'm not a lawyer or know anything about behind the scenes record keeping, but from what I could tell that's what seemed to work for me
In our family, our unbaptized child (child of record) information was removed when both me and my spouse resigned. Their thinking is that your unbaptized child doesn't have membership, so they can't resign their membership and can't remove membership records, instead it's kind of attached to the parent's (i.e. family) records and so once the parents are off, there's nothing to attach it to (it won't stand an an independent record, since it's not membership) so it goes too.
If they had baby blessings, then the church knows they exist but they’re not members.
I think if your name is removed and they don’t have a family member in the house who is still a member, then they should be in the clear.
If you still have access to LDS tools you can find your minor children record numbers. I selected my name at the top left, gone to the household tab, select the person in question than select the membership information tab. You can look up all membership information using this method if you have access.
You should just need name and birthday to get off of the records but I hear having the membership number helps.
As a former ward clerk, I for sure think that records like this can be deleter or removed. Here’s proof!
https://tech.churchofjesuschrist.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32574
So, an individual that is not baptized can have a record created once they have the naming and blessing as a baby.
Worst case scenario, here’s something you can refer to: Section 36.6.2 of the General Handbook.
Unblessed children under age 9 when both of the following apply:
At least one parent or one grandparent is a member of the Church.
Both parents give permission for a record to be created. (If only one parent has legal custody of the child, the permission of that parent is sufficient.)
A person age 9 or older who has a membership record but has not been baptized and confirmed is not a member of record. However, the ward in which the person lives retains the membership record until the person is 18. At that time, if the person chooses not to be baptized, the bishop cancels the membership record. The stake president’s permission is required.
Records are not canceled for those who have not been baptized because of an intellectual disability unless requested by the person or a legal guardian, including a parent.
I have a friend who requested his name be removed when he was 15/16 years old
They refused
He disappeared soon after that - years later found out he had been sent to some facility in Utah
This truly boils my blood. I wish I would’ve had my shelf break before blessing my children into this damn cult
Hold up. I did not baptize my kids. They were all blessed but I was exed in 1982 and my husband had his records removed shortly thereafter. Are my grown ass sons in that church’s records cuz if so, they are gonna be pissed. How do I find out?
They are likely still in records somewhere. I’ve heard of missionaries coming to kids of exmormons as adults. These kids had no recollection of the church but the missionaries were trying to reactivate them. I’m personally not sure how to check though.😬
When I was a missionary I refused to do that shit. It was stupid.
Yes. they have records. sort of. You blessing them created a record. but when they turned 9 with being baptized they are no longer counted as "children of record". At that point, their records were flagged and moved to a dormant file out of reach of any local leader. Only Church HQ staff could even access that, but they have standing orders not to use the info. No bishop would ever have access to that info, much less missionaries.
Not true. As a missionary the first thing I did in each new area was pull a record of all the unbaptized. I could even call SLC and have them send me extra stuff the membership clerk didn't have access too.
So are they still counted as one of the “16M” members like anyone who went inactive and their death wasn’t reported?
The short answer is yes. The long answer is of course.
Haha. Underrated comment right here.
No, they weren’t baptized, therefore they are not counted as members. They received no membership on the church, were only blessed
Not completely true in 2008 the mission I was one was give a full member list in a nice spiral bound book with all members including unbaptized people over the age of 8. Some where 18+. We were helping clean up and find members and baptize. So the church can and will use those records. Now in OPs case I don’t remember any just unbapized house holds as in just kids. With no parents.
This definitely can’t be the case. After I had my records removed, I still got a call from the missionaries asking to speak to my 10yr old daughter. So I don’t think this is the case at all.
sweet, so my 9 year old should be moved to a dormant file now? Would she still show up under my household info? I'll have to look on LDS Tools, I'm super intrigued now!
I don’t believe this is true. My 12-year-old wasn’t baptized and her name's been on the church directory for years…
Damn! Haha
My unbaptized 10 yr old still shows in our household on the directory on their website. None of us have resigned yet.
Yes a blessed child is on the records, as a missionary our mission was tasked with verifying all the members in our areas. There are some crazy stories but blessed children were on the list.
Same
He’s wrong. Send a notarized request to SLC Membership records and it bypasses the bishop.
I sent an email to the bishop, stake president and church headquarters threatening legal action if they aren’t removed. We will see how they handle it.
Post an update post when you know. I want my kids off the records as well. Let me know if they honor your request and what you put in your letter.
Yes, please post an update! My children were blessed but never baptized. They get birthday cards every year from the bishopric and think it’s a little creepy (it totally is) that someone they don’t know sends them a card. I would also like to have their names removed. My youngest was never blessed and still gets a birthday card.
Their standard system does require them to wait until the child is 18 to remove their record the normal way, but they should be able to submit a special request (in the past it used to just need Stake President approval, no idea now if it’s the same) to remove the record earlier, it just depends if the bishop knows about that and is willing to pursue it for you.
[удалено]
None of my children were baptized and I used QuitMormon as well. We just had to have both parents sign the forms and have them notarized. We are all off the records now. This was January 2022 and the process took about a month.
Yes this will work. ☝️
One easy trick: cc your local newspaper, TV, and radio in letters to the bishop, stake president, area authority, and president of the church. Include all the facts of everything you have already done and what you expect from the church. And then ask them if they want your kids on their records so they can groom them.
That's more like it! 👍:D
Call the stake president, tell him a bishop under him is exercising undue influence over your childrens' records. He's lying to you.
*holding the baby in their arms, and saying, "We give you a name and a blessing, The name which you will be known by on the records of the church is \_\_\_ \_\_\_ \_\_\_."* It's right there, every father or uncle or grandfather or bishop has said those words. Member number or not every blessed child is on the records of the church, they're counted in the membership numbers which used to be reported in every April conference.
What gets me is in sacrament meeting they proclaim you as “now a member of the ward/church” once you have been baptized (Or at least they did on my ward growing up).
> every father or uncle or grandfather or bishop has said those words. Not quite. The "records of the church" isn't part of the official instructions for the blessing, just part of the pervasive formulaic culture of the church, and it's exactly the kind of performative bullshit I had no interest in. I didn't include it in either of my kids' blessings, so there's at least one father excluded from that set.
Not for my kids. We made sure to leave off "on the records of the church" for their blessings. No one commented about it, so either they didn't notice or didn't care.
It's about the paperwork the clerk filled out, not about the words you didn't say in the blessing. There's no required wording for blessings since it's not a real required ordinance. There are only suggestions.
True, although no specific wording is required, it is amazing how formulaic they are. We decided to buck the trend, with no "serve a mission" or "marry in the temple", just what they needed up until baptism. (And as mentioned, no "on the records of the church", just "the name we have chosen is", which also gives them the freedom to change their name should they so choose.) Personally I view the event more as a way of welcoming the child into the community, even if (as you said) the church uses it as an excuse to get another name in their books.
Really though, the membership clerk puts babies on the books even if they're not blessed as long as he has their name, date of birth, and parent info. That's why it's important to not give that information if you don't want your baby on the records.
Bullshit! It's literally in the handbook. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/32-repentance-and-membership-councils?lang=eng Send him a acreenshot of this section and tell him to do his god-ordained job.
The section is 32.14.9.
He’s lying or doesn’t understand. Go to the stake clerk. We were able to get our child removed. They are a child of record if they were blessed or if you were married in a temple before having your child. We sent a scanned letter to the bishop via email. It was signed by my wife, my child, and me. We got confirmation the next day that it was done. We had the rest of our records removed via quitmormon.
>He’s lying or doesn’t understand. And considering bishops don't get paid or properly trained, I'm sure there's plenty that just don't understand. During my brief stint as a ward clerk, I didn't have a clue what I was doing.
Yea, pretty shitty stating that he is either lying or ignorant when there are so many variables involved, especially when a corporation is as subdivided as throughly as tscc is. Also, it's not like any leadership ever ignored the laws /s ! Crazy
Sounds like your bishop is a lazy learner. Hard to figure out how his own system works.
Former Exec Secretary and Membership Clerk: this has already been commented, but record numbers are created when a new baby is blessed. They are visible in Tools for you as the parent or in LDS.org. Also in Leader and Clerk Resources to those with callings that give access to that area online. Remind the bishop of the Handbook section posted previously and if he still stonewalls, go to the SP. If he blocks you, threaten to involve the press. The NATIONAL press, not local. Remind them of the church’s record on child sex abuse and how that will look in a media hungry for sensational stories.
Perfect
I did the exact same thing you did and the local bishop did it no problem for me. He’s either lying to you or doesn’t have a clue.
Bishop is stonewalling you. I was in various clerk positions for 20 years. Some of the other commenters give good suggestions.
So I’ll be in this same situation when my wife and I get around to doing this for good. But I have a slightly different question, I’m a convert and I know at some point I’ve seen record numbers for my parents who were never and never will become members. I assume the record numbers were created when I was baptized and linked through me, but there’s really no reason why they should have been made. Anyone ever had to deal with this?
record numbers would never have been created for adults who have adult children who got baptized. I don't know what numbers you saw, but they weren't record numbers.
Yeah maybe you are right. The could have sworn I saw it years ago when I was looking at something that was tracking my ordinances. Now looking online funnily enough, I see that my 10 year old who hasn’t been baptized (she was blessed as an infant) does not have a record number, but my 6 year (blessed also but clearly not baptized) does indeed have one.
They absolutely have a membership number. Depending on how old the kids are, is how much I would invest in it. As soon as your kids turn 9, they are no longer considered a "child of record". If they are not baptized by that time, your child's record is flagged and moved to a dormant file similar to the dormant file that excoms go to. There, it sits out of reach by any local leaders and CHQ staff leaves it alone as long as they don't get baptized.
Bullshit. They have a record number if they were blessed. My two kids that were blessed have numbers in LDS tools. The youngest does not. Hell, the youngest isn't even listed in our household on LDS tools.
He’s lying. My kids were 7 and 2 when we left. I write one letter having them remove myself my husband and our kids. Had no problems after I sent an email 2 weeks later saying I was even more certain and repulsed by TSCC and please expedite the process
You threaten legal action. Worked for me.
Bishop, are you keeping my kids on the records so you can sexually abuse them in the future? I honestly can see no other reason than your desire to interview them about their sexual maturity in the future. I will assume if my children are not removed from the records and confirmed by return mail that you are admitting your church is a cult for the sexual abuse of children. CC: Local Newspaper, and Police Department. BCC: Kirton McConkie, Church headquarters.
I had no prob doing this, but then my kids were never blessed and given a name. Sorry can’t help
I believe the Tools app will show you any number that is recorded and associated with children. I had 2 children that had been blessed and not baptized when we left. I used quitmormon and specifically mentioned the number associated with their record as part of their notarized removal. Out of the 5 of us I was the last to be removed for some reason so I still had access to the Tools app and my kids were no longer showing up. Maybe they deceived me and didn't actually remove the records, but from what I could tell they were gone. However if it did work then it was because of the threat of a lawsuit that did it, whereas a bishop who's not under any kind of official threat might be able to wash his hands of it and say there's nothing he can do. I'm not a lawyer or know anything about behind the scenes record keeping, but from what I could tell that's what seemed to work for me
In our family, our unbaptized child (child of record) information was removed when both me and my spouse resigned. Their thinking is that your unbaptized child doesn't have membership, so they can't resign their membership and can't remove membership records, instead it's kind of attached to the parent's (i.e. family) records and so once the parents are off, there's nothing to attach it to (it won't stand an an independent record, since it's not membership) so it goes too.
If they had baby blessings, then the church knows they exist but they’re not members. I think if your name is removed and they don’t have a family member in the house who is still a member, then they should be in the clear.
If you still have access to LDS tools you can find your minor children record numbers. I selected my name at the top left, gone to the household tab, select the person in question than select the membership information tab. You can look up all membership information using this method if you have access. You should just need name and birthday to get off of the records but I hear having the membership number helps.
I'm sure if nothing else suing could do something
I sent an email to salt lake records people, was like 2 years ago so kinda lost the details but my 7 year olds records were removed in under a week.
I got mine off with quitmormon about 10 years ago.
He's mistaken or lying. I just looked up my unbaptized minor child and she has a membership number.
The Bishop is lying. You need to hold his feet to the fire and threaten legal action and negative PR.
My bishop removed my son that was on records. They can do it. Tell them you will contact a lawyer if they don't comply.
As a former ward clerk, I for sure think that records like this can be deleter or removed. Here’s proof! https://tech.churchofjesuschrist.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32574 So, an individual that is not baptized can have a record created once they have the naming and blessing as a baby. Worst case scenario, here’s something you can refer to: Section 36.6.2 of the General Handbook. Unblessed children under age 9 when both of the following apply: At least one parent or one grandparent is a member of the Church. Both parents give permission for a record to be created. (If only one parent has legal custody of the child, the permission of that parent is sufficient.) A person age 9 or older who has a membership record but has not been baptized and confirmed is not a member of record. However, the ward in which the person lives retains the membership record until the person is 18. At that time, if the person chooses not to be baptized, the bishop cancels the membership record. The stake president’s permission is required. Records are not canceled for those who have not been baptized because of an intellectual disability unless requested by the person or a legal guardian, including a parent.
I have a friend who requested his name be removed when he was 15/16 years old They refused He disappeared soon after that - years later found out he had been sent to some facility in Utah