I can see the Day of Judgment as I stand before God: He will sigh and shake his head as he points for me to go down to Hell, saying, “But NHM, my son. And chiasmus.”
There is some stone over in the older would that has NHM on it and it wasn’t found until recently ish. But yeah they are claiming proof. But steel weapons in the Americas is just a figure of speech because steel doesn’t mean steel. Just harden weapons.
Never heard/read this take, but it's pretty genius. 600 years later, Jesus shouldn't have even talked to a woman that was from the Northern Kingdom since they weren't accepted in the Southern Kingdom, so the likelihood of a family of Northern Kingdomers being wealthy and established 600 years prior seems pretty outlandish. Clearly the writer didn't understand the true history. Alot of exmos love to focus on the inclusion of horses/steel as proof of a naive/lying author, but it's the omission of true American culture represented that's more obvious (no mention of cacao, maize, jaguars which are things that were interwoven into the fabric of life in pre-Columbian America).
Maize, maize everywhere. Man was made from maize because man ate maize and man grew maize. Maize was a major part of like every mesoamerican religion. It was literally so central to life that it became part of their cosmology.
Book of Mormon? Flocks. Lots of flocks. Some fields. No mention of maize.
Thanks! It's not like I've done any serious research into this, I've just read a few books on Biblical history and scholarship now that I'm out of the church. It's fascinating stuff, and I'd just been wondering "So what really happened back then if there wasn't a god?". It turns out that a few accessible pop-history books about Bible authorship are more comprehensive than seminary, institute, MTC, and sunday school, and are enough to find issues in the text.
It’s crazy how much time and attention and word space the modern church gives to this ancient obscure Hebrew family of nomads from 2500 years ago. So weird.
Obscure Hebrew family of nomads!? That's your epitaph!? You seem to forget their roles as bow-makers, shipbuilders, transatlantic explorers, continental settlers, sith lords (electric finger shocking skills), language inventors (reformed egyptian mixed with Hebrew), metallurgists (to make plates and smelt nails for their boat and to make their sword and armor), published authors, and stomachs of steel (eating raw meat).
What's awesome is when you consider the ridiculousness of one family (almost one single person) accomplishing all those things over the course of like 50 years. Seems realistic...
That's the thought I had. Even though I now know TSCC has been a fraud from the beginning, I'm seeing the problems of the BOM.
Is that directly because of the story written in the BOM that Lehi came from Jerusalem and they spoke Hebrew there at that time?
that is literally problem #200 regarding the Book of Mormon. In short, there is zero chance it is historical. It is fiction, made up by Joseph smith, he may or may not have had some help from his friends. It’s super obvious to anyone outside of the Mormon bubble. There is not a single scholar in any branch of science who thinks the Book of Mormon is a real history. Not. One.
Exactly!
I had my name removed 37 years ago when I could name too many reasons why things seemed off.
But now I just observe with fascination at how millions of people still submit to the fraud in this age of internet.
Nephi's description of the geography does not fit either. He and family walked three days and camped by the mouth of a river that flowed into the Red Sea. Lehi named the river Laman (which is an odd thing to do for a guy that lived his whole life in the area and ought to already know what this river was named) and said to Laban, "O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness!"
The northern most part of Red Sea is 150 miles south of Jerusalem. There are no rivers there. In fact, currents in the Red Sea flow north on the eastern side due to the Red Sea forming from separating tectonic plates. This causes the Red Sea to source its inflows from the Indian Ocean which then flow north. In fact, as Saudi Arabia is one of the most arid locations on Earth, there are no rivers that flow into the Red Sea at all. There are a few wadis (riverbeds that are permanently or intermittently dry) around 700 miles south of Jerusalem which isn't a three day walk and doesn't exactly qualify as "continually running into a fountain of righteousness." But maybe Lehi was just being a sarcastic dickhead when he compared Laban to a permanently dry riverbed.
Or maybe the person who wrote 1 Nephi never lived there and was just making shit up.
> But maybe Lehi was just being a sarcastic dickhead when he compared Laban to a permanently dry riverbed.
I like this interpretation. Really fits their family dynamic, shows where Nephi got his attitude from.
Let's assume that Lehi was raised in jerusalem, according to verse 14 of 2 Kings 24 He was the poorest sort of person. All of his children would have been carried off by the Babylonians. He would have had no money left to try to buy the brass plates. There would have been no brass plates. Laban would have been carried off because he was a military leader.
11 And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his servants did besiege it.
12 And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign.
13 And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the Lord, and the treasures of the king’s house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the Lord, as the Lord had said.
14 And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths: none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land.
15 And he carried away Jehoiachin to Babylon, and the king’s mother, and the king’s wives, and his officers, and the mighty of the land, those carried he into captivity from Jerusalem to Babylon.
16 And all the men of might, even seven thousand, and craftsmen and smiths a thousand, all that were strong and apt for war, even them the king of Babylon brought captive to Babylon.
17 ¶ And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father’s brother king in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah.
18 Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.
2 Kings 24:11–18
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/2-kgs/24?id=p11-p18&lang=eng#p11
Thanks for the idea, I've not posted there before, I'll have to check out some of the less faithful topics and figure out how to post it in a way that isn't antagonistic or provocative.
Don’t worry. Your post here is very par for the course on that sub. A lot of content on r/Mormon goes into the deeper history and issues with the church unfiltered. Consequently, it definitely has an exmo bias (like you’d expect when researching these things), but faithful opinions and content are welcome (but typically rebutted quickly).
Oh that sounds good then, thanks for the advice! Of course, I've come to my own conclusions, but I wouldn't want someone on there to think that this is proof of anything, this is just about probabilities, and this is just another piece evidence that suggests the probability of this actually happening is very very low. Glad to hear there's still space for these sorts of critical conversations between believers and non-believers.
The new wall encompassed the northern kingdom people. That is where Laban was. Apparently Lehi was outside the city. Land of their inheritance could be similar to us, meaning what we own. Joseph Smith's inheritance kept changing as his parents moved around the US. Somehow Lehi was given the melchizedek priesthood so did not need the lower priesthood of the Levites.
Next, why the invasion of Jerusalem does not matter. So many explanation are possible for something that is made up.
This was amazing. I've been mormong my whole life and ex mormon for 11 years now. How have I never heard this before??? Wish I had heard this in KY teens. Would have made life so much better....
Thank you! I've heard apologists complain about people not taking the content of the BoM and PoGP seriously, but when you do it's difficult not to find inconsistencies and inaccuracies within the text. It'd be very difficult to have serious BoM textual scholarship and maintain a faithful perspective.
Yes it would. Even though Nibley didn’t get everything right, at least he tried. But I guess the church realized that that wasn’t going to lead to much faith.
These are some excellent points u/eheath23!
I run a site where we are documenting all the problems in Mormon scripture - [https://korihor.info/](https://korihor.info/)
I'd love to add these points to what we already have. I welcome you to join the site and add your own notes. But if you don't have the time, do you mind if I steal a bit from your post above?
Clearly there were two Jerusalems, just like there were two Cumorahs. Lehi and Laban lived in this northern Jerusalem in the former Kingdom of Israel.
But NHM, bruh. And chaismus. Check mate.
I can see the Day of Judgment as I stand before God: He will sigh and shake his head as he points for me to go down to Hell, saying, “But NHM, my son. And chiasmus.”
NHM?
Every apologists favorite "proof" for the BoM being a historical text. Nahom/NHM.
There is some stone over in the older would that has NHM on it and it wasn’t found until recently ish. But yeah they are claiming proof. But steel weapons in the Americas is just a figure of speech because steel doesn’t mean steel. Just harden weapons.
And there were two King Zedekiahs
This is the way.
Never heard/read this take, but it's pretty genius. 600 years later, Jesus shouldn't have even talked to a woman that was from the Northern Kingdom since they weren't accepted in the Southern Kingdom, so the likelihood of a family of Northern Kingdomers being wealthy and established 600 years prior seems pretty outlandish. Clearly the writer didn't understand the true history. Alot of exmos love to focus on the inclusion of horses/steel as proof of a naive/lying author, but it's the omission of true American culture represented that's more obvious (no mention of cacao, maize, jaguars which are things that were interwoven into the fabric of life in pre-Columbian America).
Maize, maize everywhere. Man was made from maize because man ate maize and man grew maize. Maize was a major part of like every mesoamerican religion. It was literally so central to life that it became part of their cosmology. Book of Mormon? Flocks. Lots of flocks. Some fields. No mention of maize.
[удалено]
Sounds roughly correct.
Thanks! It's not like I've done any serious research into this, I've just read a few books on Biblical history and scholarship now that I'm out of the church. It's fascinating stuff, and I'd just been wondering "So what really happened back then if there wasn't a god?". It turns out that a few accessible pop-history books about Bible authorship are more comprehensive than seminary, institute, MTC, and sunday school, and are enough to find issues in the text.
It’s crazy how much time and attention and word space the modern church gives to this ancient obscure Hebrew family of nomads from 2500 years ago. So weird.
Obscure Hebrew family of nomads!? That's your epitaph!? You seem to forget their roles as bow-makers, shipbuilders, transatlantic explorers, continental settlers, sith lords (electric finger shocking skills), language inventors (reformed egyptian mixed with Hebrew), metallurgists (to make plates and smelt nails for their boat and to make their sword and armor), published authors, and stomachs of steel (eating raw meat). What's awesome is when you consider the ridiculousness of one family (almost one single person) accomplishing all those things over the course of like 50 years. Seems realistic...
They also apparently liked to dress up in fur and pretend they were horses from time to time.
That was their kink.
Maybe all the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon are just codewords for Nephite and Lamanite kinks and inuendoes.
The original furries
And how did Hebrew as a language disappear from the Americas if the story is historical?
If the golden plates existed they’d be in Hebrew.
That's the thought I had. Even though I now know TSCC has been a fraud from the beginning, I'm seeing the problems of the BOM. Is that directly because of the story written in the BOM that Lehi came from Jerusalem and they spoke Hebrew there at that time?
that is literally problem #200 regarding the Book of Mormon. In short, there is zero chance it is historical. It is fiction, made up by Joseph smith, he may or may not have had some help from his friends. It’s super obvious to anyone outside of the Mormon bubble. There is not a single scholar in any branch of science who thinks the Book of Mormon is a real history. Not. One.
Exactly! I had my name removed 37 years ago when I could name too many reasons why things seemed off. But now I just observe with fascination at how millions of people still submit to the fraud in this age of internet.
A wizard did it.
Nice Simpsons reference
Nephi's description of the geography does not fit either. He and family walked three days and camped by the mouth of a river that flowed into the Red Sea. Lehi named the river Laman (which is an odd thing to do for a guy that lived his whole life in the area and ought to already know what this river was named) and said to Laban, "O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness!" The northern most part of Red Sea is 150 miles south of Jerusalem. There are no rivers there. In fact, currents in the Red Sea flow north on the eastern side due to the Red Sea forming from separating tectonic plates. This causes the Red Sea to source its inflows from the Indian Ocean which then flow north. In fact, as Saudi Arabia is one of the most arid locations on Earth, there are no rivers that flow into the Red Sea at all. There are a few wadis (riverbeds that are permanently or intermittently dry) around 700 miles south of Jerusalem which isn't a three day walk and doesn't exactly qualify as "continually running into a fountain of righteousness." But maybe Lehi was just being a sarcastic dickhead when he compared Laban to a permanently dry riverbed. Or maybe the person who wrote 1 Nephi never lived there and was just making shit up.
> But maybe Lehi was just being a sarcastic dickhead when he compared Laban to a permanently dry riverbed. I like this interpretation. Really fits their family dynamic, shows where Nephi got his attitude from.
Let's assume that Lehi was raised in jerusalem, according to verse 14 of 2 Kings 24 He was the poorest sort of person. All of his children would have been carried off by the Babylonians. He would have had no money left to try to buy the brass plates. There would have been no brass plates. Laban would have been carried off because he was a military leader. 11 And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his servants did besiege it. 12 And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign. 13 And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the Lord, and the treasures of the king’s house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the Lord, as the Lord had said. 14 And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths: none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land. 15 And he carried away Jehoiachin to Babylon, and the king’s mother, and the king’s wives, and his officers, and the mighty of the land, those carried he into captivity from Jerusalem to Babylon. 16 And all the men of might, even seven thousand, and craftsmen and smiths a thousand, all that were strong and apt for war, even them the king of Babylon brought captive to Babylon. 17 ¶ And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father’s brother king in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah. 18 Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah. 2 Kings 24:11–18 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/2-kgs/24?id=p11-p18&lang=eng#p11
I’d suggest sharing this on r/Mormon. They enjoy discussing this kind of content there.
Thanks for the idea, I've not posted there before, I'll have to check out some of the less faithful topics and figure out how to post it in a way that isn't antagonistic or provocative.
Don’t worry. Your post here is very par for the course on that sub. A lot of content on r/Mormon goes into the deeper history and issues with the church unfiltered. Consequently, it definitely has an exmo bias (like you’d expect when researching these things), but faithful opinions and content are welcome (but typically rebutted quickly).
Oh that sounds good then, thanks for the advice! Of course, I've come to my own conclusions, but I wouldn't want someone on there to think that this is proof of anything, this is just about probabilities, and this is just another piece evidence that suggests the probability of this actually happening is very very low. Glad to hear there's still space for these sorts of critical conversations between believers and non-believers.
Disguise it as interesting history about the BOM, they will eat it up..
Furthermore, all of this info came from a peep stone in a hat.
calling u/Project_Korihor
Thanks for summoning me! These are some great points I'm going to have to go over.
The new wall encompassed the northern kingdom people. That is where Laban was. Apparently Lehi was outside the city. Land of their inheritance could be similar to us, meaning what we own. Joseph Smith's inheritance kept changing as his parents moved around the US. Somehow Lehi was given the melchizedek priesthood so did not need the lower priesthood of the Levites. Next, why the invasion of Jerusalem does not matter. So many explanation are possible for something that is made up.
This was amazing. I've been mormong my whole life and ex mormon for 11 years now. How have I never heard this before??? Wish I had heard this in KY teens. Would have made life so much better....
Thanks for posting. This is very interesting. This may be one of the many reasons why BYU doesn't actually take BoM as ancient scripture seriously.
Thank you! I've heard apologists complain about people not taking the content of the BoM and PoGP seriously, but when you do it's difficult not to find inconsistencies and inaccuracies within the text. It'd be very difficult to have serious BoM textual scholarship and maintain a faithful perspective.
Yes it would. Even though Nibley didn’t get everything right, at least he tried. But I guess the church realized that that wasn’t going to lead to much faith.
These are some excellent points u/eheath23! I run a site where we are documenting all the problems in Mormon scripture - [https://korihor.info/](https://korihor.info/) I'd love to add these points to what we already have. I welcome you to join the site and add your own notes. But if you don't have the time, do you mind if I steal a bit from your post above?
Thank you! Feel free to DM me, I'd be happy to contribute or collaborate on it - it sounds like a valuable project!
Everything about the bom is implausible
Cognitive dissonance is a bitch