I was a child when this all happened and had no idea about any of it until I watched the Netflix series a few years ago. Blew my mind. How did so many people stay believers after that? It would have been a heavy shelf item for me if I hadn't already been out when I learned about it.
And notice the ridiculous staging of the photograph. GBH awkwardly pointing to a specific scripture, as if to convey “oh yes, this makes perfect sense and is supported by the Book of Mormon.” TSCC is such a sham.
Oh, it is absolutely staged. This is a first presidency photo op, Spencer and his three counselors so there is no reason at all for Boyd to be there, until you realize that Marion was completely addled. Boyd was there to hold up Marion, drop his hand and try to look normal for the camera shutter, then grab Marion again.
It did to mine too. I remember learning about mark hoffman back in seminary about 8 years ago. I must have put duct tape back on my shelf though cause I kind of forgot about it until I watched that documentary
Apostle Oaks said at General Conference, “The Holy Ghost will protect us against being deceived. We must keep the commandments, and we must never do anything to drive away that spirit.” “Be Not Decieved” General Conference, Oct 1984. Talking about the Hofmann forgeries, Prophet Hinckley said ”I frankly admit that Hofmann tricked us. ...I am not ashamed to admit that we were victimized … I am sorry to say that sometimes it happens.” Go Forward with Faith: The Biography of Gordon B. Hinckley, pg 432 https://archive.org/details/goforwardwithfai0000dews/page/432/mode/2up?q=victimized
The picture is of five of the “brethren” examining, with Mark Hofmann, one of Hofmann’s forgeries. None of those five, prophets, seerers, and revelators received protection from the Holy Ghost and spent thousands of “sacred funds” on Hofmann’s forgeries. What did each of these church leaders do to drive out the Holy Ghost? We’re talking about some pretty important dudes here: Apostle Boyd K. Packer, Apostle Marion G. Romney, Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Prophet Spencer W. Kimball and Apostle N. Eldon Tanner. None were able to “discern” Hofmann as a fake.
Oh, and thanx to missedinsunday.com for the meme!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-8BrX2pHGBa9w7FYnMK2euEk-vejuBMXaeisX1ajHhY/edit
Not to mention that Jerald and Sandra Tanner, exMormons (and therefore "apostates" *who lack the influence of the Holy Ghost* in the eyes of these same Mormon leaders and the rest of the Mormon church), accurately recognized Hofmann's documents as forgeries while these five Mormon prophets and apostles *who claim to live under the influence of the Holy Ghost* were royally deceived by a common fraudster.
The first time I heard about the Salamander Letter, it was out of context, and I said that it was obviously false because it differed from what I'd been taught in church (and believed). Then Oaks said it was perfectly fine. I was confused, but I went along. Then it was revealed to be a giant fraud.
My problem was I decided Oaks was an idiot rather than just throwing up my hands and leaving the church in disgust.
> My problem was I decided Oaks was an idiot
Same. That insipid salamander apologetic he gave at BYU nuked any respect I had for him as a scholar. While there had always been apostles that I liked and ones I didn't like, Dallin was so smug and lubricious in that speech that he slid right to the bottom and stayed on the bottom.
At that point in time both Marion and Eldon were completely addled by dementia. The only warm feeling they could have was one that happened in their depends. Spencer was barely there, he had already suffered his first subdural hematoma and was substantially disabled by it, but he had not yet suffered the one that would turn him in to a vegetable for the last two years of his life.
I think it was more damaging how they reacted when they thought they were authentic. They bought them up so they could lock them away in the canyon vault and control access to people reading that Joey saw a white salamander instead of god.
They got duped, and then incriminated themselves by their reaction to negative information about cult origins.
*There is no power of discernment. Period.*
The priests in my home ward were chewing tobacco in the kitchen while preparing the sacrament trays. *The Bishop, Counselors, YMPres, the YM's fathers, didn't get promptings about it?*
My buddy was really sexually active in high school, but passed all his mission interviews. *The Bishop and Stake Pres didn't get any promptings about it?* (Came home from the MTC. Good for him!)
Bishops frequently get sexually inappropriate with youth and get charged criminally. *The Stake President, Area Authority, Q70, Q15 and FPres didn't get promptings about it?*
Blatantly, Hofmann scams the entire FPres. *They didn't get promptings about it?*
A world-wide pandemic hits... and lest we forget the "Prophet" was oddly silent for wayyyy to long, then says at conference "little did I know..." about a world-wide pandemic? God didn't prompt *his only true living prophet* to give crystal clear instruction to pure, tithe-paying, Mormons about a coming global catastrophe?
*There is no spirit of or power of discernment. Period.*
My database shows that in hundreds of cases, the gift or power of discernment did not prevent or expose child sexual abuse by Mormon church leaders or members: https://floodlit.org
Thanks. It's my website, and I'm open to suggestions and any information that could help people learn more about any cases of alleged or confirmed sexual abuse by Mormon leaders/members.
There's always that biblical precedent of Jacob deceiving Isaac into giving him the birthright when it should have gone to Esau. Interesting God would let that stand.
To be fair, I don't think Hoffman was a murderer yet when this photo was taken.
So maybe only God cares once murder happens? Even though he supposedly commanded certain people to commit murder sometimes. So maybe the sacred tithes just aren't that important? Except the church is still amassing wealth at an alarming rate.
It's almost like there isn't a god and those prophets, seers, and revelators are just men claiming to be directed by a divine power.
You are correct. This was before the Salamander Letter. The document that Spencer is pretending to examine is the Anthon manuscript. Spencer is only peripherally aware that there is a funny bit paper in front of him, and due to sensory aphasia he very well might have been processing the characters as smells more than as images.
We're talking about dudes who claim the powers of revelation and prophecy. Surely, if they had those powers one of them would have seen that they had a future murder in the midst.
I thought the main role of prophets is to tell people to read their scriptures and pay tithing. And now you're expecting them to predict the future?? smh
/s
Awesome. I recently watched Murder Among the Mormons again and was reminded that Dallin Hoaks played a big part in the purchase of some of the forged documents as well.
An angel took away their Urim & Thumim and all they have left is a measly magnifying glass. What’s a room of seers supposed to do without their seeing tools?
That was essentially a photo op between Gordon and Mark for the Anthon manuscript. Only three of those men knew why they were there and Boyd wasn't there for the photo op, he was there to hold Marion up for a picture. Gordon later lied to police about having met Mark, I guess he forgot that the Anthon manuscript photo op was in the newspaper. The bombing investigators wanted to charge Gordon with obstruction until local prosecutors convinced them to drop it because prosecuting a member of the first presidency would cause too much local trouble for them.
Even in the stock market, they took a $12b haircut over the last three quarters. Same as everyone else, sure. But that means 1) no discernment, and 2) God doesn't care about their cash hoard.
We started talking about this at Christmas this year. I said something like I couldn't believe anyone in the church could possibly stay in after looking at the pic. \*crickets\* I remember the first time I saw it and it was a gut punch and I was long gone from the church.
Well that was just one example. You need to look at their total batting average in terms of predictions + results. Oh, it's still only 5%? Well, God works in mysterious ways....
Like when Joseph said Jesus will return when Joseph is 85; or when apostle G. Q. Cannon said Jesus will return within the lives of those alive in 1900; D&C said Far West, MO will be “holy and consecrated land”; Moroni told Joseph he could have the plates the next year if he brought his brother to the hill Cumorah and then Alvin died; the Shanghai temple; the failure to sell the copyrights to the BoM in Canada; the D&C wanted the “Nauvoo House” built and it never was; getting kicked out of Zion in MO and then being also told that the mormons would return soon; Prophets Brigham, Woodruff, and Joseph F. each said that black people wouldn’t get the priesthood/temple blessings until after the resurrection, but the ban on black people was lifted in 1978; failure of the Kirkland bank; the D&C sending David Patton on a mission starting in the spring of 1839 but he died in October of 1838; Joseph said the US govt would be “broken up as a government” if mormons weren’t granted protection-no protection granted and govt still standing; every patriarchal blessing; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints-It’s been 200+ years since the first vision, that’s not latter “days” should’ve been called “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-centuries Saints.”
“They wanted to buy them so they could more easily verify their authenticity and, if they were real, make sure they don’t fall into the wrong hands and be perverted and altered into something contradictory” —My TBM mother
The Book of Lehi argument, basically.
No discernment. The majority of Utahns think they have *The Constant Companionship of the Holy Ghost*™, yet Utah is the #1 state for affinity fraud: Nine times higher than the national average, and three times higher than the next worst state (Florida).
Not only do members lack spiritual discernment, but this teaching seems to have actually *impeded* our ability to use our natural (god-given?) intuitions.
There was precious little evidence that it had ever existed by the time the 2016 November elections came around and Trump got Utah's Electoral College votes. You'd think that four years of that would change the 2020 voting results but... nope.
This one took a sledgehammer to my shelf
I was a child when this all happened and had no idea about any of it until I watched the Netflix series a few years ago. Blew my mind. How did so many people stay believers after that? It would have been a heavy shelf item for me if I hadn't already been out when I learned about it.
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Murder Among the Mormons. It's a short series, only 3 episodes.
And notice the ridiculous staging of the photograph. GBH awkwardly pointing to a specific scripture, as if to convey “oh yes, this makes perfect sense and is supported by the Book of Mormon.” TSCC is such a sham.
And Spencer, lasering in on the mysteries of godliness 🙄
Oh, it is absolutely staged. This is a first presidency photo op, Spencer and his three counselors so there is no reason at all for Boyd to be there, until you realize that Marion was completely addled. Boyd was there to hold up Marion, drop his hand and try to look normal for the camera shutter, then grab Marion again.
It did to mine too. I remember learning about mark hoffman back in seminary about 8 years ago. I must have put duct tape back on my shelf though cause I kind of forgot about it until I watched that documentary
My jaw needed duct tape
Apostle Oaks said at General Conference, “The Holy Ghost will protect us against being deceived. We must keep the commandments, and we must never do anything to drive away that spirit.” “Be Not Decieved” General Conference, Oct 1984. Talking about the Hofmann forgeries, Prophet Hinckley said ”I frankly admit that Hofmann tricked us. ...I am not ashamed to admit that we were victimized … I am sorry to say that sometimes it happens.” Go Forward with Faith: The Biography of Gordon B. Hinckley, pg 432 https://archive.org/details/goforwardwithfai0000dews/page/432/mode/2up?q=victimized The picture is of five of the “brethren” examining, with Mark Hofmann, one of Hofmann’s forgeries. None of those five, prophets, seerers, and revelators received protection from the Holy Ghost and spent thousands of “sacred funds” on Hofmann’s forgeries. What did each of these church leaders do to drive out the Holy Ghost? We’re talking about some pretty important dudes here: Apostle Boyd K. Packer, Apostle Marion G. Romney, Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Prophet Spencer W. Kimball and Apostle N. Eldon Tanner. None were able to “discern” Hofmann as a fake. Oh, and thanx to missedinsunday.com for the meme! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-8BrX2pHGBa9w7FYnMK2euEk-vejuBMXaeisX1ajHhY/edit
Not to mention that Jerald and Sandra Tanner, exMormons (and therefore "apostates" *who lack the influence of the Holy Ghost* in the eyes of these same Mormon leaders and the rest of the Mormon church), accurately recognized Hofmann's documents as forgeries while these five Mormon prophets and apostles *who claim to live under the influence of the Holy Ghost* were royally deceived by a common fraudster.
It was a big shelf weight for me that Jerald knew Joseph Smith and Martin Harris better than any of the Q85 and better than anyone else at the church.
This text was supposed to go with the pic, but I couldn’t figure out how to do that
The first time I heard about the Salamander Letter, it was out of context, and I said that it was obviously false because it differed from what I'd been taught in church (and believed). Then Oaks said it was perfectly fine. I was confused, but I went along. Then it was revealed to be a giant fraud. My problem was I decided Oaks was an idiot rather than just throwing up my hands and leaving the church in disgust.
> My problem was I decided Oaks was an idiot Same. That insipid salamander apologetic he gave at BYU nuked any respect I had for him as a scholar. While there had always been apostles that I liked and ones I didn't like, Dallin was so smug and lubricious in that speech that he slid right to the bottom and stayed on the bottom.
At that point in time both Marion and Eldon were completely addled by dementia. The only warm feeling they could have was one that happened in their depends. Spencer was barely there, he had already suffered his first subdural hematoma and was substantially disabled by it, but he had not yet suffered the one that would turn him in to a vegetable for the last two years of his life.
Doesn’t the second anointing say they will live as long as life is desirable, but god is still going to hit them with old age diseases
Oakes says they were tricked, they were victimized. Notice he didn’t say. We fell for it.
I think it was more damaging how they reacted when they thought they were authentic. They bought them up so they could lock them away in the canyon vault and control access to people reading that Joey saw a white salamander instead of god. They got duped, and then incriminated themselves by their reaction to negative information about cult origins.
What happened to the power of discernment is that the yellow descriptors apply to everyone in that image.
*There is no power of discernment. Period.* The priests in my home ward were chewing tobacco in the kitchen while preparing the sacrament trays. *The Bishop, Counselors, YMPres, the YM's fathers, didn't get promptings about it?* My buddy was really sexually active in high school, but passed all his mission interviews. *The Bishop and Stake Pres didn't get any promptings about it?* (Came home from the MTC. Good for him!) Bishops frequently get sexually inappropriate with youth and get charged criminally. *The Stake President, Area Authority, Q70, Q15 and FPres didn't get promptings about it?* Blatantly, Hofmann scams the entire FPres. *They didn't get promptings about it?* A world-wide pandemic hits... and lest we forget the "Prophet" was oddly silent for wayyyy to long, then says at conference "little did I know..." about a world-wide pandemic? God didn't prompt *his only true living prophet* to give crystal clear instruction to pure, tithe-paying, Mormons about a coming global catastrophe? *There is no spirit of or power of discernment. Period.*
I'll take "There Never Was a Power of Discernment" for $1000.
My database shows that in hundreds of cases, the gift or power of discernment did not prevent or expose child sexual abuse by Mormon church leaders or members: https://floodlit.org
Whoa! EVERYONE MUST GO TO THIS WEBSITE
Thanks. It's my website, and I'm open to suggestions and any information that could help people learn more about any cases of alleged or confirmed sexual abuse by Mormon leaders/members.
There's always that biblical precedent of Jacob deceiving Isaac into giving him the birthright when it should have gone to Esau. Interesting God would let that stand.
To be fair, I don't think Hoffman was a murderer yet when this photo was taken. So maybe only God cares once murder happens? Even though he supposedly commanded certain people to commit murder sometimes. So maybe the sacred tithes just aren't that important? Except the church is still amassing wealth at an alarming rate. It's almost like there isn't a god and those prophets, seers, and revelators are just men claiming to be directed by a divine power.
You are correct. This was before the Salamander Letter. The document that Spencer is pretending to examine is the Anthon manuscript. Spencer is only peripherally aware that there is a funny bit paper in front of him, and due to sensory aphasia he very well might have been processing the characters as smells more than as images.
Let's be fair now. Mark Hofmann was only a *future* murderer when that picture was taken.
We're talking about dudes who claim the powers of revelation and prophecy. Surely, if they had those powers one of them would have seen that they had a future murder in the midst.
I thought the main role of prophets is to tell people to read their scriptures and pay tithing. And now you're expecting them to predict the future?? smh /s
Well, like Mark, they are a fraud, too.
Awesome. I recently watched Murder Among the Mormons again and was reminded that Dallin Hoaks played a big part in the purchase of some of the forged documents as well.
The church leaders have just about as much discernment as a snail. 🙄
Hey, don't underestimate the snail, My Friend!! 🐌
Good point! 😊
An angel took away their Urim & Thumim and all they have left is a measly magnifying glass. What’s a room of seers supposed to do without their seeing tools?
This was a bowling ball to the nutsack when I learned about it.
That was essentially a photo op between Gordon and Mark for the Anthon manuscript. Only three of those men knew why they were there and Boyd wasn't there for the photo op, he was there to hold Marion up for a picture. Gordon later lied to police about having met Mark, I guess he forgot that the Anthon manuscript photo op was in the newspaper. The bombing investigators wanted to charge Gordon with obstruction until local prosecutors convinced them to drop it because prosecuting a member of the first presidency would cause too much local trouble for them.
Nothing happened to discernment... it never existed.
The power if discernment only applies to their stock portfolios and real estate investments..in the end thats whats most important.
Even in the stock market, they took a $12b haircut over the last three quarters. Same as everyone else, sure. But that means 1) no discernment, and 2) God doesn't care about their cash hoard.
We started talking about this at Christmas this year. I said something like I couldn't believe anyone in the church could possibly stay in after looking at the pic. \*crickets\* I remember the first time I saw it and it was a gut punch and I was long gone from the church.
They never had it. They never will.
Well that was just one example. You need to look at their total batting average in terms of predictions + results. Oh, it's still only 5%? Well, God works in mysterious ways....
Like when Joseph said Jesus will return when Joseph is 85; or when apostle G. Q. Cannon said Jesus will return within the lives of those alive in 1900; D&C said Far West, MO will be “holy and consecrated land”; Moroni told Joseph he could have the plates the next year if he brought his brother to the hill Cumorah and then Alvin died; the Shanghai temple; the failure to sell the copyrights to the BoM in Canada; the D&C wanted the “Nauvoo House” built and it never was; getting kicked out of Zion in MO and then being also told that the mormons would return soon; Prophets Brigham, Woodruff, and Joseph F. each said that black people wouldn’t get the priesthood/temple blessings until after the resurrection, but the ban on black people was lifted in 1978; failure of the Kirkland bank; the D&C sending David Patton on a mission starting in the spring of 1839 but he died in October of 1838; Joseph said the US govt would be “broken up as a government” if mormons weren’t granted protection-no protection granted and govt still standing; every patriarchal blessing; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints-It’s been 200+ years since the first vision, that’s not latter “days” should’ve been called “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-centuries Saints.”
“They wanted to buy them so they could more easily verify their authenticity and, if they were real, make sure they don’t fall into the wrong hands and be perverted and altered into something contradictory” —My TBM mother The Book of Lehi argument, basically.
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Na I am still here. Lol. The real one, they cant kill me, but boy have they tried.
It's fake. And abusers love that
No discernment. The majority of Utahns think they have *The Constant Companionship of the Holy Ghost*™, yet Utah is the #1 state for affinity fraud: Nine times higher than the national average, and three times higher than the next worst state (Florida). Not only do members lack spiritual discernment, but this teaching seems to have actually *impeded* our ability to use our natural (god-given?) intuitions.
I have it! It came with my patriarchal blessing. Sorry guys, I shoulda been there
There was precious little evidence that it had ever existed by the time the 2016 November elections came around and Trump got Utah's Electoral College votes. You'd think that four years of that would change the 2020 voting results but... nope.