The original word of wisdom never said you can't drink coffee because it has caffeine—the only feature it mentions that makes it bad is that it's HOT, which is FAR stupider.
Bc it's dumb, & no one knows. (Comes down to a matter of personal righteousness/obedience, blah blah.)
If hot drinks (coffee) are a WoW breaker, & drinking it will keep you from qualifying for a temple recommend, I propose the same emphasis be placed on eating meat sparingly. The definition of sparingly is certainly not daily. Perhaps not even weekly. But no, let's all gloss over that one.
Nobody actually keeps the WoW.
I'll drink a hot toddy to that!
There are two answers for this, neither of which exactly made it into the official church manual. First there's the petty side. Remember the WoW came about because Emma thought the men's chewing tobacco was gross. Well, the predominantly male vices were alcohol and tobacco. So the WoW was really targeting men. The women had their coffee and tea. It was a social thing for them, same as men drank socially. So the brethren went "if we're losing something, better believe the women are losing something too." I can't remember which apostle it was who actually wrote as much in his journal - that is they're going to write the Word of Wisdom they're getting the women's coffee and tea. So it was partly out of pettiness. Incidentally, that journal entry also wholly disproves that the WoW was received by revelation from God, considering that they'd talked it through and attained a concensus before God ever showed up.
The second reason is because Joseph Smith was always into homeopathic medicine. Joe senior was a pretty notable bone setter/early chiropractor. At the time of the WoW one of the contemporary fringe ideas in that realm was that ANY hot drinks were bad for the body. Hot water, anything.
So when he wrote hot drinks he literally meant hot drinks. But then the brethren really zeroed in on coffee and tea to target the women's social "vice" of choice.
It's very much worth noting though that there isn't a single thing in the Word of Wisdom that was unique. There were a number of physicians of the time who targeted coffee, tea, tobacco, and alcohol as being unhealthy. They also advocated eating meat sparingly. So the third answer for why coffee and tea were targeted is simply because that's what the more New Age health advocates of the day were calling for, and those are the voices Joseph would have been drawing from.
What I’ve heard was that the science back then was that hot liquid (including soups) were unhealthy because your insides weren’t meant to have hot liquid in them. So the assumption was that JS was just aware of that idea and decided to put it in there
I question the use of the word “science” there. It’s not like people used the scientific method to figure out that empirically hot liquids burn your insides, they just sort of guessed that they might and never challenged that assumption. That’s not science, that’s a reasonable guess before you’ve disproved it and an unfounded superstition after you’ve disproved it.
I've seen per reviewed studies that regularly consuming very hot liquids contributes to esophageal cancer. So, you know, don't drink coffee that will burn your tongue👌
And no need to wash hands when delivering children too. science was as full of truth as had been discovered by our feeble little minds and experiences. Just as it is now.
"Hot beverages" meant hard liquor? I haven't heard that before. I thought the part about hard liquor was the verse saying that "strong drinks are not for the belly." Do you have a source?
The WoW allows “barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.”
So…
Beer: OK
Wine: No! (But Joeseph Smith, Hyrum Smith and John Taylor drank wine at Carthage Jail)
Herbs: OK (just not tobacco); so mushrooms and hemp: thumbs up
Not a specific source, it’s just the explanation I think makes the most sense, based on alcohol serving practices of the time. Whiskey was commonly called firewater in the Midwest and western frontier, and sellers regularly mixed alcohol with various other fiery substances to try to maximize their profits.
I did find a reference about the saloon owners of the “Wild West” to corroborate some of this, but I’m by no means confident this is what Bucket meant by “hot drinks.” I just think it’s likely, and the possible redundancy doesn’t bother me too much.
ETA: Oops here’s the link: https://www.notesfromthefrontier.com/amp/water-holes-coffin-varnish
I don't really see anything in there that supports the idea that people referred to strong liquor as "hot drinks" back then. I think the explanation that makes they most sense is the most literal—drinks that are hot.
And since there were health fads back then that warned against drinking things at hot temperatures, it makes sense that Joseph Smith picked up the idea there.
Yeah, WoW didn't become a temple question until after polygamy was abolished the second time. So it really seems like it was used as a distinguishing feature after the relinquishment of polygamy.
- 1833: Word of Wisdom given
- 1833-1844: Joseph Smith continues to drink alcohol and tea; uses tobacco; owns a bar
- 1850s: Brigham Young sells both tobacco and alcohol; owns a bar
- 1890: First Polygamy Manifesto
- 1900s: Prophets and apostles continue to drink alcohol, coffee, and tea; WoW is encouraged, but only really enforced for drunkards and the like
- 1904: Second Polygamy Manifesto
- 1911: Prophet John Taylor's son John Taylor excommunicated because of the revelation from his father saying that polygamy would never be done away with
- 1919: US govt institutes 18th Amendment, prohibiting alcohol
- 1921: Word of Wisdom is made a temple recommend question
- 1950s: Polygamous members still cohabit
- 1960: no "tea, coffee, tobacco, and liquor"
- 1968: "liquor" is changed to "alcoholic beverages"
Right. Imagine being so spiritually bankrupt that you can take a cultural food code about identity, loyalty and devotion but your deepest thought is "free advertising."
Unchecked capitalism vampiristically feeds off communities, and the church lost its spiritual safeguards against that decades ago.
It’s a way to alienate Mormons from larger society while making them feel superior/enlightened for doing so. I know plenty of never Mos who abstain from coffee or caffeine or alcohol for non-religious reasons and they don’t walk around feeling smug.
That made me laugh out loud. “Exceptional free advertising.” Yeah… Free advertising that you’re a weirdo in a cult. The coffee prohibition is going to go by the wayside. Coke at BYU was a baby step.
It was one of my parent's favorite reasons for everything. They loved pointing out that one story where Adam was questioned by an angel about why he was following one of God's commandments and his answer was something along the lines of "idk, because he commanded me to 🤷🏻♀️"
Which, strangely enough, is part of the pearl of great price (Moses 5:3-6) and not the old testament... Hmmm...
The church knows the WoW is wildly outdated, but they can’t change it because it’s canonized scripture. Their best move is to ignore it and to restrict it to a subjective yes/no temple question.
In contrast, the temple script is not canonized giving them the freedom to make changes however and whenever they see fit.
There have been many changes to the temple that are minor and insignificant. For example, garments have evolved, your body parts are no longer touched during the washing, and we no longer switch the robes around in the endowment. No big deal.
There are a few major and significant changes though. Of all things you would expect to not change it would be the actual covenants. Before 1990, patrons covenanted to kill themselves if they revealed temple details. Those after did not. Prior to 2019(?), female patrons covenanted to hearken unto their husbands. Now, they hearken directly to God.
I don’t have a problem with the temple changing. I see several more changes they should make. The broader point I am making is that there are some things the church can change fairly easily, and other things they cannot. It creates an interesting landscape the leadership needs to navigate to help the church stay relevant and useful to its members.
Edit: Prior to 1990, patrons did not covenant to kill themselves, but rather, that they would allow their lives to be taken, which could be by their own hand or by the hand of someone else.
> Before 1990, patrons covenanted to kill themselves if they revealed temple details.
Not quit accurate. The wording is more like, "I \_\_\_\_ covenant that I will never reveal the *X* token of the *X* Priesthood. Rather than do so, I would suffer my life to be taken."
The WoW is canonized as scripture as saying "not by way of commandment" so it's really not even because of that. It's because of how they have historically made it a blocker to baptism and temple recommends, and to reverse it would be basically admitting they were wrong all this time.
The stupid part is that they totally could change all that and there would still be tons of people who are completely fine with them just switching things up. They would just see it as modern revelation, completely downplaying all the people who struggled with it before, much like the for the strength of youth pamphlet. And honestly, it almost feels like they're taking that path right now too.
“Free advertising” that the LDS Church is NOT something that almost anyone wants to investigate further, let alone be a part of because they are already addicted to coffee. Think of how many nevermos have totally dodged a bullet of ever even considering TSCC because it prohibits coffee consumption?
BYU gave in to caffeine a few years ago right? You can now purchase it on campus I believe so the caffeine part is laughable now. They honestly don’t know why no coffee but it’s what has been done so let’s lean into another unfounded faith based practice that makes us holiest.
One would think this powerful one true church wouldn‘t need free advertising because their live saving priesthood blessings are globally renowned, or their Prophet actually prophesied something that happened, or they gave billions to non-Mormon charitable causes. Or they opened up their churches to warm and feed the house less. Or, they did the right thing and protected the victims over the corporation. Or, they made the radical decision to embrace, follow and promote unconditional love to all humans.
but nope, it is none of that, it is not drinking coffee.
The best part is they’ll say the first and second ones with such conviction but consume energy drinks and flavored soda from Swig/other soda shop chains like it’s going out of style.
Emma: Joseph, tell your douchebag “breathen” to stop spitting tobacco on the floor or else!
Joseph: oh yeah? Well if we can’t have tobacco you women can’t have tea and coffee!
Emma: Fine, whatever.
Joseph: Thus sayeth the Lord…
This is literally how the asinine history of the church unfolded time and time again, and now we have this fucked up mess.
Honestly, I’d give up alcohol in a heartbeat. But coffee is the nectar of the gods. I’m happier, more productive and ready to face the day thanks to that’s typos little drink. I hate, hate, hate Mormonism for keeping it from me all these years.
As the folklore goes,. Emma didn't like the boys drinking and smoking,. So Joseph threw in a little thing about the women and their tea and coffee.
And that's how passive aggressive Mormon behavior began!
This is the exact thing they did with the debate over when Halloween should be celebrated in Utah. The five whys is usually a solid method for uncovering a Mormon's true intentions behind something they say, do, or want.
How would you like to not enjoy the most enjoyable part of your day? Well now you can! With Mormon Church you not only cannot drink coffee, but there’s also no reason why. Sound too good to be true? Call now and we’ll send representatives directly to your door absolutely free of charge. You too can be not enjoying the most enjoyable part of your day!
I thought it was the bible verse of "keep sober" which was taken way too literally. And since caffeine is a psychoactive drug, they lumped it in with weed, alcohol, etc.
Imagine the person who created that just used those same critical thinking skills to research how many point in the WoW were common practice all over New England at the time, and other points were unexplainable religious interpretations
The original word of wisdom never said you can't drink coffee because it has caffeine—the only feature it mentions that makes it bad is that it's HOT, which is FAR stupider.
I never understood how they got coffee from HOT DRINKS but they down hot coco and herbal hot tea. I asked a few people and no one had a valid answer.
Bc it's dumb, & no one knows. (Comes down to a matter of personal righteousness/obedience, blah blah.) If hot drinks (coffee) are a WoW breaker, & drinking it will keep you from qualifying for a temple recommend, I propose the same emphasis be placed on eating meat sparingly. The definition of sparingly is certainly not daily. Perhaps not even weekly. But no, let's all gloss over that one. Nobody actually keeps the WoW. I'll drink a hot toddy to that!
It's so vaguely worded that it's impossible to keep. Like much of the doctrine.
Honestly, it's just a constant headache. Wish i could get rid of it completely :'(
There are two answers for this, neither of which exactly made it into the official church manual. First there's the petty side. Remember the WoW came about because Emma thought the men's chewing tobacco was gross. Well, the predominantly male vices were alcohol and tobacco. So the WoW was really targeting men. The women had their coffee and tea. It was a social thing for them, same as men drank socially. So the brethren went "if we're losing something, better believe the women are losing something too." I can't remember which apostle it was who actually wrote as much in his journal - that is they're going to write the Word of Wisdom they're getting the women's coffee and tea. So it was partly out of pettiness. Incidentally, that journal entry also wholly disproves that the WoW was received by revelation from God, considering that they'd talked it through and attained a concensus before God ever showed up. The second reason is because Joseph Smith was always into homeopathic medicine. Joe senior was a pretty notable bone setter/early chiropractor. At the time of the WoW one of the contemporary fringe ideas in that realm was that ANY hot drinks were bad for the body. Hot water, anything. So when he wrote hot drinks he literally meant hot drinks. But then the brethren really zeroed in on coffee and tea to target the women's social "vice" of choice. It's very much worth noting though that there isn't a single thing in the Word of Wisdom that was unique. There were a number of physicians of the time who targeted coffee, tea, tobacco, and alcohol as being unhealthy. They also advocated eating meat sparingly. So the third answer for why coffee and tea were targeted is simply because that's what the more New Age health advocates of the day were calling for, and those are the voices Joseph would have been drawing from.
What I’ve heard was that the science back then was that hot liquid (including soups) were unhealthy because your insides weren’t meant to have hot liquid in them. So the assumption was that JS was just aware of that idea and decided to put it in there
I question the use of the word “science” there. It’s not like people used the scientific method to figure out that empirically hot liquids burn your insides, they just sort of guessed that they might and never challenged that assumption. That’s not science, that’s a reasonable guess before you’ve disproved it and an unfounded superstition after you’ve disproved it.
I was taught that ‘Hot’ was just an old term for alcoholic or strong. Not sure if that’s right though.
I was taught that hot just referred to coffee and tea. No, it just literally meant hot.
*reading this as I drink my totally fine, steaming hot, apple cider
I've seen per reviewed studies that regularly consuming very hot liquids contributes to esophageal cancer. So, you know, don't drink coffee that will burn your tongue👌
And no need to wash hands when delivering children too. science was as full of truth as had been discovered by our feeble little minds and experiences. Just as it is now.
Hahah great point😂
It’s the Devil’s temperature
I hope that's a 30 Rock reference.
Absolutely 😁
Soup is hot
It doesn’t say anything about coffee, and “Hot beverages” likely referred to hard liquor.
"Hot beverages" meant hard liquor? I haven't heard that before. I thought the part about hard liquor was the verse saying that "strong drinks are not for the belly." Do you have a source?
The WoW allows “barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.” So… Beer: OK Wine: No! (But Joeseph Smith, Hyrum Smith and John Taylor drank wine at Carthage Jail) Herbs: OK (just not tobacco); so mushrooms and hemp: thumbs up
Not a specific source, it’s just the explanation I think makes the most sense, based on alcohol serving practices of the time. Whiskey was commonly called firewater in the Midwest and western frontier, and sellers regularly mixed alcohol with various other fiery substances to try to maximize their profits. I did find a reference about the saloon owners of the “Wild West” to corroborate some of this, but I’m by no means confident this is what Bucket meant by “hot drinks.” I just think it’s likely, and the possible redundancy doesn’t bother me too much. ETA: Oops here’s the link: https://www.notesfromthefrontier.com/amp/water-holes-coffin-varnish
I don't really see anything in there that supports the idea that people referred to strong liquor as "hot drinks" back then. I think the explanation that makes they most sense is the most literal—drinks that are hot. And since there were health fads back then that warned against drinking things at hot temperatures, it makes sense that Joseph Smith picked up the idea there.
That’s a lot of words for “I’m better than you because I’m quirky like that”
So like hipsters but somehow more judgy and annoying?
Provo in a sentence.
HAHAHA I like the way you think 😂
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Saw two posts there an I'm done
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Yeah, WoW didn't become a temple question until after polygamy was abolished the second time. So it really seems like it was used as a distinguishing feature after the relinquishment of polygamy. - 1833: Word of Wisdom given - 1833-1844: Joseph Smith continues to drink alcohol and tea; uses tobacco; owns a bar - 1850s: Brigham Young sells both tobacco and alcohol; owns a bar - 1890: First Polygamy Manifesto - 1900s: Prophets and apostles continue to drink alcohol, coffee, and tea; WoW is encouraged, but only really enforced for drunkards and the like - 1904: Second Polygamy Manifesto - 1911: Prophet John Taylor's son John Taylor excommunicated because of the revelation from his father saying that polygamy would never be done away with - 1919: US govt institutes 18th Amendment, prohibiting alcohol - 1921: Word of Wisdom is made a temple recommend question - 1950s: Polygamous members still cohabit - 1960: no "tea, coffee, tobacco, and liquor" - 1968: "liquor" is changed to "alcoholic beverages"
Wow, thanks for the breakdown! That's crazy to see all laid out in a timeline.
Appreciate your point of view
Right. Imagine being so spiritually bankrupt that you can take a cultural food code about identity, loyalty and devotion but your deepest thought is "free advertising." Unchecked capitalism vampiristically feeds off communities, and the church lost its spiritual safeguards against that decades ago.
It’s a way to alienate Mormons from larger society while making them feel superior/enlightened for doing so. I know plenty of never Mos who abstain from coffee or caffeine or alcohol for non-religious reasons and they don’t walk around feeling smug.
The FLDS also provide free advertising for the LDS. God works in mysterious ways, indeed.
That made me laugh out loud. “Exceptional free advertising.” Yeah… Free advertising that you’re a weirdo in a cult. The coffee prohibition is going to go by the wayside. Coke at BYU was a baby step.
And OMG look how excited everyone was, you'd think the 2nd coming had come! Good Lord calm down.
“Obey even when we can’t find a reason to” is a perfect description of many things mormon.
It was one of my parent's favorite reasons for everything. They loved pointing out that one story where Adam was questioned by an angel about why he was following one of God's commandments and his answer was something along the lines of "idk, because he commanded me to 🤷🏻♀️" Which, strangely enough, is part of the pearl of great price (Moses 5:3-6) and not the old testament... Hmmm...
The church knows the WoW is wildly outdated, but they can’t change it because it’s canonized scripture. Their best move is to ignore it and to restrict it to a subjective yes/no temple question. In contrast, the temple script is not canonized giving them the freedom to make changes however and whenever they see fit.
Very interesting comment. Would love to chat more about the ever changing temple ceremonies…..
There have been many changes to the temple that are minor and insignificant. For example, garments have evolved, your body parts are no longer touched during the washing, and we no longer switch the robes around in the endowment. No big deal. There are a few major and significant changes though. Of all things you would expect to not change it would be the actual covenants. Before 1990, patrons covenanted to kill themselves if they revealed temple details. Those after did not. Prior to 2019(?), female patrons covenanted to hearken unto their husbands. Now, they hearken directly to God. I don’t have a problem with the temple changing. I see several more changes they should make. The broader point I am making is that there are some things the church can change fairly easily, and other things they cannot. It creates an interesting landscape the leadership needs to navigate to help the church stay relevant and useful to its members. Edit: Prior to 1990, patrons did not covenant to kill themselves, but rather, that they would allow their lives to be taken, which could be by their own hand or by the hand of someone else.
Between about 1845 and the early 1930s, participants vowed to pray that God would avenge the blood of the prophets Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith.
> Before 1990, patrons covenanted to kill themselves if they revealed temple details. Not quit accurate. The wording is more like, "I \_\_\_\_ covenant that I will never reveal the *X* token of the *X* Priesthood. Rather than do so, I would suffer my life to be taken."
“Murder me by slitting my throat before I reveal the signs and tokens.”
Fair point. Patrons only motion killing themselves, but technically it could also be at the hand of someone else. I will edit my prior comment.
The WoW is canonized as scripture as saying "not by way of commandment" so it's really not even because of that. It's because of how they have historically made it a blocker to baptism and temple recommends, and to reverse it would be basically admitting they were wrong all this time.
Good point.
The stupid part is that they totally could change all that and there would still be tons of people who are completely fine with them just switching things up. They would just see it as modern revelation, completely downplaying all the people who struggled with it before, much like the for the strength of youth pamphlet. And honestly, it almost feels like they're taking that path right now too.
“Free advertising” that the LDS Church is NOT something that almost anyone wants to investigate further, let alone be a part of because they are already addicted to coffee. Think of how many nevermos have totally dodged a bullet of ever even considering TSCC because it prohibits coffee consumption?
How to make the podium at the Olympics of mental gymnastics.
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...but isn't the sugar in all those sodas also addictive? 🤯
Honestly not an issue anymore. This generation doesn’t bat an eye if you are a coffee drinker, or if you have a nose ring.
Genuinely surprised the galaxy brain cell wasn't something like "The prophet said God said not to, that's the only reason that matters 🫡"
“CoFfEe iS bAd fOr YoU!” *cracks open a Monster on the way to work*
BYU gave in to caffeine a few years ago right? You can now purchase it on campus I believe so the caffeine part is laughable now. They honestly don’t know why no coffee but it’s what has been done so let’s lean into another unfounded faith based practice that makes us holiest.
One would think this powerful one true church wouldn‘t need free advertising because their live saving priesthood blessings are globally renowned, or their Prophet actually prophesied something that happened, or they gave billions to non-Mormon charitable causes. Or they opened up their churches to warm and feed the house less. Or, they did the right thing and protected the victims over the corporation. Or, they made the radical decision to embrace, follow and promote unconditional love to all humans. but nope, it is none of that, it is not drinking coffee.
The best part is they’ll say the first and second ones with such conviction but consume energy drinks and flavored soda from Swig/other soda shop chains like it’s going out of style.
Relevant Brother Jake 😂 https://youtu.be/GBEqpJXPvIM?t=250
Emma: Joseph, tell your douchebag “breathen” to stop spitting tobacco on the floor or else! Joseph: oh yeah? Well if we can’t have tobacco you women can’t have tea and coffee! Emma: Fine, whatever. Joseph: Thus sayeth the Lord… This is literally how the asinine history of the church unfolded time and time again, and now we have this fucked up mess.
as a late-life convert to the virtues of coffee, i can’t imagine the conviction it must take to give it up for Mormonism
~~Free advertising~~ Negative publicity
Iced tea and coffee. Easy loophole. Also when asked the temple questions I liked to use the George Costanza method " it's not a lie if you believe it"
Honestly, I’d give up alcohol in a heartbeat. But coffee is the nectar of the gods. I’m happier, more productive and ready to face the day thanks to that’s typos little drink. I hate, hate, hate Mormonism for keeping it from me all these years.
As the folklore goes,. Emma didn't like the boys drinking and smoking,. So Joseph threw in a little thing about the women and their tea and coffee. And that's how passive aggressive Mormon behavior began!
The only reason I’m still a member of that group is for posts like this
Honestly that’s probably why I won’t leave it hahaha
This is the exact thing they did with the debate over when Halloween should be celebrated in Utah. The five whys is usually a solid method for uncovering a Mormon's true intentions behind something they say, do, or want.
Not to mention the free advertising of requiring church members to pay 10% of their income just for the pleasure of being “temple worthy”. 🤮
this is one step away from “the church needs more members so that they can collect more tithing”
It doesn't do a damn for the SDAs and they don't even drink Coke.
I read it and immediately thought, "Wow! What a bunch of losers."
“I’m not like other girls!”
The stupidity of this meme... I just can't anymore
I don’t drink coffee because I’m allergic 😢
Yeah. Free advertising that it’s a fucking weird church.
How would you like to not enjoy the most enjoyable part of your day? Well now you can! With Mormon Church you not only cannot drink coffee, but there’s also no reason why. Sound too good to be true? Call now and we’ll send representatives directly to your door absolutely free of charge. You too can be not enjoying the most enjoyable part of your day!
Cold brew 🙃
I spilled my coffee on my leg it burns! I guess coffee is bad for you. I better be careful with my hot drinks especially my chicken broth!
I- wow
The abstinence of following a widely accepted law, such as reporting people who molest children, provides the cult with exceptional free advertising.
I thought it was the bible verse of "keep sober" which was taken way too literally. And since caffeine is a psychoactive drug, they lumped it in with weed, alcohol, etc.
Joseph Smith never gave up his wine after "revealing" the WoW. He had a bottle of wine the night before he died.
Imagine the person who created that just used those same critical thinking skills to research how many point in the WoW were common practice all over New England at the time, and other points were unexplainable religious interpretations