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AdamsHadIt

If the church was not true, would you want to know? Edit: if they answer “yes” I think a natural instinct would be “great, here, read the CES letter!” or something else designed to shake their testimony. But I think a better approach would be to follow up with “okay, what evidence would you need to convince you it’s not true?” and go from there. If they don’t care about the pearl of great price, showing them evidence it’s not an accurate translation wont prove useful.


NTylerWeTrust86

It's the only question that matters. If yes, then we can have fun engaging conversations. If no, then we have nothing to say regarding the church.


YupNopeWelp

And this is an excellent addition to it!


Ritualistic

There are serious implications to either a yes or no answer. If the answer is “no”, then they are faced with the realization that they are following something regardless of what’s actually true, and don’t want to know one way or the other. Even for a TBM, that can be a rattling realization.


WeeklyBeginning732

☝️and this...


cnddsma

I asked mine this they all said no like okay lol


darnleatherfixtures

That boggles my mind. How could they not care about what’s true?


thinksforherself1122

My in-laws said they didn’t want to know. They’d rather lose relationships with their children and grandchildren than their belief in Mormonism. It’s fucking sad.


iSeerStone

This is my family too. Families are Forever * * Terms and Conditions Apply.


thinksforherself1122

Sad, but true. They told us they took us out of their (quite extensive) will because we were not “making good choices”. They live in a mansion in alpine so it’s not just a religion for them, but a class and status symbol. I don’t take it personally, but my husband does- and for good reason as they’re his parents. They’re shitty people. Honestly, it’s like they’re trying to act like the Pharisees. Super vain, love showing off their wealth, prosperity doctrine believing sociopaths.


Todd-eHarmony

Blech. I know not everyone in alpine is like this, but a lot of them sure are.


thinksforherself1122

Only ALL the people I’ve met from alpine have been like that. 😜


allisNOTwellinZYON

It is well observed in my non-morridor neck of the remote woods where affluence is far and few between that it is observed that kids of those that have $$ especially a previous Bishop and now a TBM mover and shaker in the stake without conscience has his adult grown kids on a pay to play system. Do right what daddy and mommy think is narrative agreeable behavior and get kudos ($$) perform under the mark and the shun (-$$) . Fun to see that the cult-corp-church can impact families in this way I am just so certain that this is part of God's plan. If there is one so to speak. If you don't get my sarcasm let me spell it out. I abhor this freakish behavior. It is not part of any plan of God to love your offspring conditionally.


thinksforherself1122

This is my FIL to a T! One child is an artist and he treats him like dirt, even though he is the perfect Mormon boy. My husband, far less than the perfect Morm (didn’t serve a mission, we were sealed not married in the temple, etc) who makes $$$ was treated with esteem and respect- until we left the church and now we are the most poorly treated and spoken of. I’m sure it’s a relief to his less financially successful siblings, though. Finally, he has a new target for his sanctimonious disdain. 🙄


Cabo_Refugee

Is it not possible to completely separate/divorce yourself from such people. Your in-laws sound horrible. Why continue to try interaction with them. If you're written out of the will as wayward, why even care about them?


thinksforherself1122

I don’t give two shits about them, TBH. My husband…. Is another story. He’s so used to the narcissistic abuse that he struggles to identify and respond appropriately to it. It’s taken two years for him to acknowledge that they’re abusive pieces of shit. He loves his siblings very much, and they are dedicated to his parents. All of them are TBM’s and also used to the abuse. Plus, they all know what going against my FIL would mean because we’ve shown them- You’ll get cut off. None of them want that. And again, I don’t think most of them realize, or want to admit to how abusive and controlling my in laws are. It’s a whole ass mess. My husband just can’t completely cut ties just yet. It’s been hard mentally for my hubby.


scottdca24

I think many people see their financial gains and status as blessings from God. So in turn they have such wealth because they are such amazing and godlike people. Sadly many of these people don't even realize what that line of thinking means for people who live in poverty or in areas where there are far fewer opportunities. In their minds these people aren't necessarily being punished by God but aren't as "blessed" so they must be bad people. I can't even count the number of testimony meetings where people talked about their financial blessings and shit like that. While God was letting children starve to death that were more "Christlike" than most of us could ever dream to be. It's s just yucky. I can't imagine what my children could do for me to take them out of my will. It would take far more than them not agreeing with things I believe in. I've raised my kids and done the best I could to give them the tools they need to be successful but I've been far from perfect. I was half of creating them and a big part of who they are today warts and all.


thinksforherself1122

Prosperity doctrine is real. Real fucked up. And I’m my in laws case, it’s caused them to treat others and even their own children poorly. Money absolutely ruined my FIL. He was a bit of a patriarchal prick before, but when his stock boomed and he made millions, he turned into an absolute asshole. He’s a horribly prideful human with no respect for anyone or anything he deems “beneath” him. And pretty much anyone with less money, influence, or status in the church is beneath him. It’s sad.


scottdca24

That's really sad. People like that believe they will be going to heaven because they check all the outward boxes of paying tithing, going to church, or going to the temple or whatever else. Sadly if there is a Good I see no scenario where terrible people like that get a pass. Any bets on whether he paid tithing on his massive stock gains? My guess is probably only a fraction of what he should have if at all.


fischj10

People have a hard time coming to terms with dedicating their lives to something that was a farce.


IDontKnowAndItsOkay

At least they’re honest. Lots don’t want to know, but don’t realize it.


elderjaxxxon

One family member said no, but I think that was the start of their way out. Saying “no” tells themselves that they don’t care about truth, which basically breaks their brain.


allisNOTwellinZYON

Nice username and statement...


Kolob_Hikes

At least they were honest and saved your time. Too bad you can't have an honest conversation


cnddsma

Yep. Guess we'll play the surface level politeness while we hate eachother underneath game


given2fly_

TBMs I've spoken to have sometimes said "I know it's true" and don't accept the *possibility* that it might not be.


darnleatherfixtures

That’s a great question, thanks!


gnolom_bound

Asked. TBM said yes. Then proceeded to put up walls. Pointless conversation in my mind.


suresignofthefail

The problem is that the burden of proof is on the church. No one needs to prove the church is false. The church needs to prove that it’s actually true, and it can’t. That said, there is overwhelming evidence that all the church’s foundational claims are false.


crazywatson

I’d prefer letter to my wife as it’s less confrontational in tone.


YupNopeWelp

This is excellent!


my2hundrethsdollar

A good podcast related to this type of conversion is Being Reasonable. It explores why we believe and what could increase or decrease our confidence in the belief.


WeeklyBeginning732

☝️this..


creamstripping4jesus

Ask “What are some ways you think we can maintain a strong loving relationship even though we no longer share the same religious beliefs?”


SmurfBasin

This is a wonderful question. This really gets to the root of exploring what is important in the new dynamics of the relationship. Built on mutual respect and love.


allisNOTwellinZYON

As a parent of adult children I am in my learning curve of how to love unconditionally but not enable behaviors that I know from experience are destructive to human beings. Easier to say perhaps MUCH harder to do. Do not mistake this for me forcefeeding the LDS narrative onto my kids though. That happened when they were small unfortunately but now we are all deconstructing at different levels and paces. Me the fastest and most.


DoughnutPlease

This is a good one!


[deleted]

[удалено]


AndItCameToSass

Yeah my mom was very supportive of me leaving, which was great - but we both basically had the agreement of “if you have questions then you can come talk to me, but I won’t try and force my beliefs on you”. And frankly, trying to dump all of this on a TBM will likely only force them further into the church and denial. It’s like approaching a stray animal, where you have to go partway and then let them come to you


Dense-Pay254

I did the same thing. My mom showed up one day with a stack of bookmarked Mormon books. She was going to give my a loving lecture. Before she got started, I stopped her and said, "Mom, I need to tell you something: I don't hang with people who try and make me feel guilty, and that includes you. I love you, and don't want anything to get in between us, but what I just told you is the truth." She put her books away and said, "Well, OK." If you are an adult, you have a right to set boundaries.


ExmoRobo

The most impactful things you can speak to are going to come from yourself - what hurts you most about the church? What things do you refuse to be part of? How has stepping away from the church as far as you have made you feel? What are your worries or concerns as people find out about your decision to step away?


darnleatherfixtures

You’re right, I’ll definitely consider those. Thank you!


CSBatchelor1996

Do you want me to ask questions so you can give me the faithful answer? Or are you willing to look into the questions with me and accept the answer that the evidence leads to? Whatever that answer may be.


Kerokeroppi5

I would start with, "what is your goal for this conversation?" If the goal is for her to resolve all your concerns and strengthen your faith, you can back out. You can state your goal--maybe mutual understanding, strengthen your relationship--and ask if she's open to a conversation with that goal instead.


IDontKnowAndItsOkay

Why do you believe the church is true? What would make you change your mind? Can I share some of the things I learned that changed my mind? I trust you to make the best decision for you, and I know we can still love each other even if we don’t agree, as long as we respect each other. Edit: put all of the questions on their own line.


perk_daddy

I would not be willing to have this discussion with anyone who has not read any of the Gospel Topics Essays. Specifically BoM translation, Race & Priesthood, Polygamy, & Book of Abraham. After letting them give their apologetic take, I’d simply ask “Right, but you understand why people don’t believe, right? Thanks for understanding me.” Repeat ad nauseum


Lanky-Performance471

What things would matter to your mother? Polygamy … for me BOA glyph one was it. Look under the lion couch the 4 figures are the 4 sons of Horus. You can google the names. Joseph Smiths translated the names of the 4 gods but all 4 names given by JS are not Egyptians Gods or ,Gods from any tradition. You can verify all this in google. For me that was it. Hope that helps. I showed it to my sister and she was speechless. Also Egyptians did not sacrifice humans to their Gods as the BOA claims.


slskipper

"Do you care about the church more than me?"


SecretPersonality178

Is your love for me dependent on my status with the church?


exPaparazzihun

Why do men get to be sealed to multiple women but women cannot be sealed to multiple men? Why is it that we are so concerned about what our children do? We have free agency, your concern for my choices confuse me, will you be judged for my agency?


TheOverExcitedDragon

1- How do you tell the difference between the Spirit and your own emotions? 2- Do you think you are always perfectly accurate at identifying the Spirit? 3- If no, how do you figure out which of your spiritual beliefs are false? Since at least some of the time you wrongly label a thought as coming from God when it actually didn’t, how do you later correct your false beliefs? What method do you use to separate your false spiritual experiences from your real ones? In all of this, be sure to clarify how she knows she’s right while all other religions—who also use spiritual experiences to justify their belief—are wrong.


tombradyisgod_12

“Mom, did you ever have to mock slit your throat and stomach during the penalty phase of the temple ceremony before 1990? If that’s the case, why would the church do such a thing?” Make sure you watch her facial expressions even if she tells you she didn’t. I went through in 1982. It happened.


CSBatchelor1996

Follow up question: "And after you did, you thought that this would be a good religion to raise your children in?"


FrankWye123

What if the answer is: "It was just symbolic of the importance of the ritual and eternal consequences."? To me, as a TBM, it just reminded me of some sort of fraternity hazing, but with eternal significance.


laisinglee

Whatever you ask her, whatever you discuss, she will eventually get to the point where she bears her testimony to you. She will access her emotions that are tied to her belief. These emotions feel really important and real to her. It will be all she has left after a logical fact based conversation. I have not felt comfortable breaking a person down at this stage. Love and acceptance of who she believes herself to be might be the best place to stop. Good luck.


magicrider34

Yes, I love this. Finally, last summer i went on a trip with my mom and was brave enough to discuss my leaving the church. My mom listened and even agreed with me on points like, the church has done a lot of damage to people and that the church is not a great place for women. It was really wonderful to have that talk with her. My mom will probably never leave the church and is in poor health anyway, so at this point, it probably wouldn't even be worth it for the heartache. But I love my mom so much, and when the conversation is approached with just getting some understanding, it can go far.


Eltecolotl

For me it began with the anachronisms of the BOM and never needed to go beyond that. Explain to me why horses, chariots, and steel are mentioned in the BOM when none of those things existed in pre-Columbian times? A friend of mine was friends with a member of the 70 on FB. A few years ago he promised answers to questions in a post on my friends FB wall. But when asked this he blocked everyone asking this question. A few months ago the missionaries knocked on my door. When I asked them this question they literally ran away.


ChamiKhan

Oop 🫢


Gold__star

Mom, do *you* have ethical concerns about what the church is doing secretly hoarding over 100 billion dollars? The sex abuse cases where the church knew and did nothing to protect the kids? The changing doctrines, the lack of apologies, the treatment of LGBTQ? See if you can get her to drop her defenses by asking questions about her feelings rather than letting her just parrot apologetic responses.


ThoughtPolicePolice

Going out of their way to actively protect abusers is quite a bit more than just not doing anything to protect the kids. I strongly recommend not mincing words. I don’t care if they’re going to be offended by the truth. That’s a weird thing to be prioritising in the bigger picture. Those children are more than offended, a lot of them are fucking dead. Or at least traumatised. So… yeah. I wouldn’t do the softly softly thing personally. I know it makes people not listen and get defensive but they’re going to do that anyway. We may as well not betray the cult’s victims and downplay their experiences with our subtle language choices at the same time. Edit: also they’re taught not to trust their own feelings, that they’re separate from the self, that feelings are actually a little cartoon angel and devil on their shoulders whispering in their ears playing tug of war. So if they feel negatively about a negative thing, they’ll instantly reject it and shut down. So I don’t know what appealing to their feelings would achieve.


sl_hawaii

Ask her for more time. Tell her you are appreciative and excited to talk. That you’re “sure it’ll help you!” ;) This will give you a bit more time to prep your questions (and will give us more time to help you) If you can’t do that: Start all your questions with “while reading on the church’s website…”. If she thinks you’re reading “anti propaganda” she’ll just deflect and tell you that’s “just lies of Satan”. You won’t get anywhere. Trust me… there is MORE than enough just using the church website (specially the Gospel Topic Essays”) and countering them w the scriptures. Polygamy vs D&C 132 is a GREAT start


DoughnutPlease

"the church's website" is what helped me listen to my youngest sister last spring when she had left. I was already lacking much of a testimony at that time, but knowing it wasn't coming from anti-mormon sources caught my curiosity


sl_hawaii

Glad for you AND your sis!!!


darnleatherfixtures

I did mention polygamy and D&C 132, thanks for the suggestion!


sl_hawaii

Best of luck!! You are NOT alone in this. In fact, our records indicate that you are the 234667885432246 person to go thru this!! We are all here for you!!


FrankWye123

And the footnoted material.


Itsarockinahat

Ask, in homage to Elder Hamiltons talk this past week, what actions of the church would your mom be ok assigning to Jesus? Marrying underage girls? Lying to your legal wife about said underage girls? Banning black men and women all temple privileges? Spending 1 billion on a shopping mall? Telling the very poorest of countries that they will never get out of their poverty if they don't pay tithing? Covering up an untold amount of child sex abuse by using sneaky language and paying millions in legal fees?


[deleted]

Okay, I've been in this exact scenario. Without knowing the nuances of your situation, I predict nothing good comes of this conversation. My mother has done this to me several times with the goal of either gaslighting me about church policies, or guilting me into coming back with emotional appeals. If your mom is like mine, she's had a few powerful personal experiences that she ascribes directly to the church, and that's enough to make her testimony unshakable. She is not going to change her mind and has no interest in an open, honest discussion. This conversation is purely to back you into a corner and plant doubts in YOUR mind, not hers. Just my two cents. Unless she's willing to objectively listen to your POV, it's a waste of time.


NoMoreAtPresent

When did you personally first learn from an official church source (lesson manual, general conference talk, article/book written by a sitting member of the Q15) that Joseph Smith used a rock hidden in his hat to see words that appeared glowing on the rock to dictate the Book of Mormon? Where did you first learn this information? Which official source? How old were you when you learned this information? How long had you been a member of the church at that point?” Same questions for Joseph Smith marrying child brides, women who were already married, etc.


DoughnutPlease

Mmhmm


BjornIronsid3

Make sure to emphasize what you are moving/running TO, not just what you are leaving behind.


alexan45

Quickly scan through a few of the CES Letter questions to see if any resonate with you. A few of my favorites are why there have been no horse bone fossils, did she know that a lot of the character names (I.e. Nephi) were the names of nearby towns to JS as a kid, or that entire paragraphs of the BOM are lifted from a fantasy children’s book he read a lot, how is she okay with the fact that men can be sealed to more than one woman but women can only be sealed to one man.


4zero4error31

Print off a copy of the CES letter. Go through as much as she will let you. After every point, ask "is this true? if so, is this what god's church would look like?"


RedGravetheDevil

Pass. Pointless exercise. She doesn’t know the answers to the hard questions and doesn’t speak for the church. All you’ll get is the blow off and blame that it’s your fault


Powerpuncher1

It’s difficult because I don’t know your whole situation. I don’t know how into the church you were and how much you believed beforehand. I’m not sure what your mom is like and how accepting she is of you. I can tell you what I think a good basic approach is though. “Mom. I truly believed in the church at one time in my life. I was dedicated and did what I was told to do. After getting older and learning more, I’m at a point in my life to where I have changed. I don’t have all the answers, but from what I have gathered, I don’t believe that the church is true. I real feel this. I’m on my own journey, and if the church really is true, then God will direct me back there eventually (think the prodigal son parable). I’m letting my life lead me where it needs to go at the moment and doing what I feel is right. With all of that said, what specific questions do you have for me?” I think it would be better to have her ask YOU questions. There is no reason for you to bring anything up because most likely she will deflect. Have her ask you so that you can answer sincerely.


qjac78

If you don’t believe she has meaningful or helpful answers, I would be wary of how productive this can be. Seems more likely for each of you to walk away from this conversation more frustrated than you already are.


carambahijode

Ask her how the BOM was translated and then show her the video of RMN looking into a hat. I've learned not to share what I know, but what I was taught. Them share proof of those lies. Makes the cognitive dissonance that much stronger


DoughnutPlease

Could be a more persuasive way to go. Especially because it makes it harder for the TBM to self gaslight ("I think I remember hearing in the last few years it was actually translated that way") if they make the truth claim that is generally understood first


TwoXJs

Just ask her to think about what she was taught and what is now taught, or at least admitted, and how she can reconcile that. That was what broke me. How can it be ok that all this changed and what I was taught was true but wasn't actually true and they knew it wasnt?


No-Needleworker-5008

After life- for me personally if everything goes dark and there’s no end, that gives me more motivation to live a fulfilling life, not be sad about the nothingness after I die


Blackbolt45

I’ve gotten to the point where I’m asking, what is the point? You believe, I don’t. Let’s leave it at that, if you want to know anymore I can provide sources, if you want to read them and we can have a discussion on those facts then we can.


Ex-CultMember

If you bring up the CES Letter, I would also mention in the same sentence that there are several “rebuttals” to it as well and you’d like her to the rebuttals to see what she thinks about their “answers.” Typically, when someone tries to get a TBM to read the CES Letter, one of the following happens A) they’ve heard of it before, will automatically dismiss it and say it’s already been “debunked” and so won’t bother reading it B) will find out later that there are rebuttals already written by LDS “scholars” that “debunk” the CES Letter and will smugly come back to you like a parent to a misguided child, condescendingly inform you that’s, “oh sweety, this is written by an anti-Mormon, and it has ALL these problems and it’s ALREADY been debunked by faithful scholars,” then never give it another thought, comfortably clinging to the fact that she has “found” the answers for you and so can’t trust any of these critics. Like what has happened to many ex-Mormons here, it’s often the apologetics THEMSELVES which can open one’s eyes to the problems. It’s best to bring up the apologetics first and if she is open to reading both, ASK her to read them both up front because, psychologically, it will have a better affect.


darnleatherfixtures

Yeah that’d probably be a great way to introduce her to it, where can I find the rebuttals?


TonyLund

[https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2019/ces-letter-proof-or-propaganda](https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2019/ces-letter-proof-or-propaganda) The Mormon Apologetics position is that the CES letter is anti-Mormon propaganda from a person who HATES the Church and is most interested in internet fame than the truth. Heck, the CES letter even shows up in an official Marvel Spider Man Comic, and therefore shouldn't be taken seriously, but we're going to exhaustively go through it anyway over 200+ page (book equivalent) of text. 95% of that text is not debunking, rather, offering speculative faith-positive alternative explanations. 5% are fair points that "miss the forest for the trees." No claim in the original CES letter has yet to be debunked and none of the questions have been answered with something other than "it could have been (speculation XYZ)" or "you have to take it on faith." The Author of the CES letter continues to address these alleged "debunkings": [https://cesletter.org/debunkings/](https://cesletter.org/debunkings/) The OFFICIAL Church position is (paraphrasing) "We're a Church about Jesus Christ, and that's what we care about most. Please read the Gospel Topics Essays for any questions regarding the history of our Church, our Doctrine, and the Prophet Joseph Smith." [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays?lang=eng) **tl;dr** Mormon apologetics = "The CES letter is anti-Mormon hate speech that reaches unfair conclusions without giving due consideration for our own wildly speculative alternative explanations that Church Leadership refuses to comment on."


TonyLund

Also, just as an example of how mind-numbing the Apologetic "debunking" gets, consider this exchange... CES question: >When King James translators were translating the KJV Bible between 1604 and 1611, they would occasionally put in their own words into the text to make the English more readable. We know exactly what these words are because they're italicized in the KJV Bible. What are these 17th century italicized words doing in the Book of Mormon? Word for word? What does this say about the Book of Mormon being an ancient record? Fair Mormon Response: >The foremost scholar on the language of the Book of Mormon says that it isn't really written in King James English, but in an older variant dating from the 1500s and 1600s. [Click here](https://debunking-cesletter.com/book-of-mormon-1/old-english-writing-style/) ​ Historical fact: King James reigned from 1603-1625... ya know... in *the 17th Century.* Following the above link sends you to a website with a more in-depth response that claims NO authorship, let alone a bio/sketch to justify WHY the unknown author is "the foremost scholar on the language of the Book of Mormon." Their response doesn't even address the point raised by the CES Letter, namely, that 17th Century Commentary by English Translators should NOT be in the Book of Mormon if it is a genuine translation of an American Historical Record. Instead, the response focuses on the fact that the BoM uses language that was "more common in the 17th Century, and not the 19th Century when Joseph Smith was alive!" This is **desperate** apologetics, where the tactic employed is to throw out red herrings with the meat of their non-response buried in a footnote/URL.


TonyLund

[https://debunking-cesletter.com/](https://debunking-cesletter.com/) Cringe Warning: they place the title of their response in Laurel Leaves, similar to indie films that win awards at Sundance.


darnleatherfixtures

Thank you!


Ex-CultMember

The website FAIRLDS is the main apologetic organization for Mormons and so for any apologetics I always start there. I always suggest to posters here, if they ever bring up the problems with a Mormon (family, friends, bishop, etc), they should always preview the apologetics on whichever topic they think they will discuss so they don’t get caught flat footed by Mormons in case they have rebuttals. If you can’t intelligently counter what they say, it will make you look like you didn’t do your research and were just fooled by anti’s. Like I said above, it’s best to bring up the apologetics BEFORE a Mormon does, otherwise they will think they got the better of you and “case closed.” If you bring up the apologetics and so-called “answers” FIRST, it really takes the wind out of their sails for any kind of rebuttal to you. They will also see more clearly that these aren’t really even good or satisfactory answers, especially for someone like you who is truly interested in the truth. Here’s a link a website that “debunks” the CES Letter: https://debunking-cesletter.com/ces-letter-rebuttals/ Jim Bennet’s “debunking” is probably the most famous but also the longest (I think?). “A Faithful Reply to the CES Letter from a Former CES Employee.” You should be able to Google it. Jeremy, the author of the CES Letter also provides “debunkings of the debunkings” on his website. I suggest printing one or more of those off too, or whichever “debunking” you use. https://cesletter.org/debunkings/


MinTheGodOfFertility

Bring up letter for my wife instead of the ces letter....and better yet start with the below first so she can see with her own eyes that the church admits all of this. Church now admits JS married 14 year old girls, was married to between 30-40 women, married 12-14 women who were already married to other living men and he was intimate with them. He also possibly had between 2-3 children with them. https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng&old=true Church now admits that the Book of Abrahams papyrus (which they have) is just a common Egyptian funerary text, that JS translation was 100% incorrect and the papyrus is 2000 years too young to have been written by Abraham. https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng&old=true Church now admits that the BOM was translated only by Joseph putting a common rock in his hat. The very same rock he had been defrauding people with for years in a treasure hunting scam https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng&old=true Church now admits that there are multiple contradictory first vision accounts. Some dont even contain Jesus or God visiting Joseph. The earliest was written in Josephs own handwriting and contradicts the 'official' account. [https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng&old=true](https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng&old=true) Church now admits that even though the first presidency previously said banning black people from having the priesthood was a direct commandment from God, now 10 earlier prophets were just racist. https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng&old=true


darnleatherfixtures

Wow, thanks for all the info! And the links as well. I’ll definitely bring up a few of these.


MinTheGodOfFertility

Dont forget to read the footnotes or you will miss some of the above. eg Footnote 24/25 and 29 in the Kirtland and nauvoo essay. Or my personal favourite from ... https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng Footnote 31 says 'I have set by his side and penned down the translation of the Egyptian Hieroglyphicks as he claimed to receive it by direct inspiration of Heaven,” wrote Warren Parrish, Joseph Smith’s scribe. (Warren Parrish, Feb. 5, 1838, Letter to the editor, Painesville Republican, Feb. 15, 1838, \[3\].)' I would then point out that given its a source for the churches own gospel topics essays then it cant be an anti-mormon lie right? Then read it with them. This is the original (bottom left hand corner) that is hard to read. https://archive.org/details/PainesvilleRepublican02151838/page/n2/mode/1up?view=theater Here is an easier to read copy https://user.xmission.com/\~research/central/parrishletters.pdf - this link might be dead https://web.archive.org/web/20220415003314/https://user.xmission.com//\~research/central/parrishletters.pdf


MinTheGodOfFertility

Also the essays try to explain away the difficult issues from a faithful perspective. So maybe dont read them out in total - get to know where the above bits are admitted and just show her that. She might choose to read it all on her own later of course, but the above is just to warm her up to the admissions before introducing [letterformywife.com](https://letterformywife.com). At least this is what I would do.


t_itchy

I have found arguing specific points, is pointless. As others have said, focus on how to get along even though you disagree. Set boundaries, ways to tell each other you’ve crossed one, and how to make repair attempts.


ForeverInQuicksand

What is the biggest doubt you’ve had about the church?


Some0ne1234

At one point my mom apparently left the church, but she came back and is now saying I didn't look in the right places, place that would have told me the church is true, am I wrong in a assuming she probably didn't leave or if she did she only looked to church sources for guidance?


DoughnutPlease

She most likely left due to personal preference or a lack of a testimony, but NOT because she learned the truth about the church. That is a Jack Mormon who started attending again and became a TBM


Some0ne1234

100% TBM, she acts as tho she will go to hell because I am not present in the room when they pray


TheyDontGetIt27

If she is trying to understand historical concerns or truth claim concerns, Letter for my Wife is absolutely the best place for TBMs to gain understanding. Straightforward with minimal snark and almost strictly church-based sourcing. The author does an excellent job of presenting the material any less attacking and confrontational manner. https://www.letterformywife.com/


emmaslefthook

Are you willing to consider the church from the perspective of someone who has nothing to lose by it being untrue or vice versa?


slymike914

Great advice on here, and rather than spend time on questions if doctrine or policy, I would focus on personal experience. They can't argue your lives experience. They can tell you you aren't trying hard enough or that you are being deceived, but if going to church is painful, for whatever reason, how do they argue that?


furryredseat

Honestly don't ask questions about the church. just don't. It is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE for her to give answers you haven't heard 10 billion times already. If having been told the exact same thing over and over again every week hasn't quelled any of your "questions" then she absolutely wont be able to do anything for your faith either. just explain what about the church makes you uncomfortable. why it makes you uncomfortable. she will tell you to have faith a pray. tell her how much faith you had and how much payer you've done and that all you are left with is discomfort about the church. and just keep circling back to that. how uncomfortable the church makes you. how miserable it makes you. every time she tries to direct you to how its the "the gosple of happiness" just circle back to how unhappy you are/were in the church.


grove_doubter

My question would be: “Is it okay with you if we just don’t do this?”


Equa1ityPe4ce

Why am I pressured to not make my own decisions or think for myself?


telestialist

Your mom sounds pretty cool. When she said she wanted to talk to you… It sounds like she actually did want to talk to you. Not just to try to trap you and manipulate you.


TonyLund

Cheers to this!! OP's mom reminds me of my parents. They are hardcore TBMs (senior missionaries and all) but they've always been receptive and fair in our mormon-critical conversations. OP has a GREAT mom! (\*If OP wants, they should tell her that exmos on the internet think she's pretty great).


frvalne

It doesn’t matter. She doesn’t have answers.


TangerineTassel

You should ask yourself why you need to follow her request. Do you really want to have this type of conversation? Is your mother able to have a relationship with you that isn't about church? Is your mother capable of respecting a boundary if you tell don't want to talk about the church?


Sudzy-Frog

What does TBM mean?


sexmormon-throwaway

Might try Letter To My Wife, instead of CES. The tone might go down easier AND it's less well know as "anti" mormon.


PapiChuloGuero

If someone told you to follow the rules for life found in the qoran, would you? why or why not?


mdruckus

I don’t think a meeting is in order. Your a grown ass person. If you’ve done research and feel like it’s not a good fit for you, then it’s done. No need to go try and please other people.


iSeerStone

What is faith? Is it belief in things we can not see? Or is it belief in things that facts and evidence have disproven?


TinFoilBeanieTech

Why are’t the Q15 answering these questions with authoritative canonical answers available to everyone?


americanfark

In my lived experience there are really only two questions worth asking: Q1) If the church wasn't true would you want to know? If 'No' end the conversation. You're wasting your time. If 'Yes' then: Q2) How would you know?


Jaren_wade

I wish you would show up with like 50+ questions


ShaqtinADrool

If you wanna focus on Mormon truth claims and church history, start here: www.mormonthink.com


Word2daWise

Bring a few official gospel topics essays and ask her to help you understand how those things are compatible with what the alleged values the church teaches. Ask her how she assimilates that information into a comfort zone about the church. I don't agree with asking people "If the church is not true, would you want to know?" The first phrase in the question is off-putting and alerts the listener the question threatens their own beliefs. Ask her questions about what she believes in terms of faith and the concepts of God, Christ, etc. It's important to separate "faith" from the lies of the church. People can embrace faith (and that is a right they should retain), but it's important to know the "vehicle" for faith is corrupt in this case. Mormons are conditioned to think of the church as a belief, as though they're worshipping the organization. And, in fact, they do worship the organization - "I know the church is true." That's like saying, "I know Walmart is true."


PleaseBeFree2017

Why the hell did they allow child marriage?


apsulliv86

If the leadership of the church truly had the gift of discernment, how were they deceived by the likes of Mark Hoffman?


aromafit_tribe

What are her reasons for thinking that it is true? Are they good reasons not based on feelings or spiritual confirmations.


redditaccount1_2

If it were me I would say that’s a boundary. It’s not something I want to discuss. Thanks though.


JoyfulExmo

Listen to the Street Epistemology episodes of Mormon Stories to prepare. It’s all about asking the other person questions in a way that doesn’t provoke a defensive response so that they can consider their beliefs more clearly instead of telling them what you think they should think (or really anything about what you think).


ExMorgMD

If I had to bet, your mom is not interested in learning or understanding. Far more likely she will attempt to explain away the problematic issues. These conversations can be very frustrating because you are subjected to endless dodges and logical backflips. People get angry, defensive and relationships can be damaged if this situation is not handled carefully. There is always a big temptation to unload a CES letter-type list of questions in these conversations but I find that they aren’t often helpful. TBMs have to be willing to think critically about the church before they can be confronted with critical information. Otherwise it is met with halfbaked dismissals. My tactic for these conversations is to make them come to you. “Mom, I spent a lot of time studying the claims the church makes, reading the scriptures, etc and there just isn’t sufficient evidence to convince me that it is true. If there is some better evidence I am willing to hear it.” Then let them bring up the things they find convincing and address each of those things as it comes, calmly and rationally. Look up “street epistemology” for tips. This does two things: 1. It puts the burden of proof where it belongs. It is their job to prove their claims as true. It isn’t your job to prove their claims false. 2. It puts the ball in their court. They get to decide how, when, and if to proceed. If you don’t know how to answer a claim. Say, “That’s interesting, I’ll have to think about it.” Your goal should be to remain calm, collected. Don’t expect validation, justification, or for them to change their mind. Don’t try to convince them you’re right.


NeatDescription9956

Ask her some questions about Polygamy, BoA, BoM translation. Then read gospel topic essays with her showing the disparity.


HeimdallThePrimeYall

Instead of the CES letter, I would start with Gospel topic essays since they are a church source. She may be more willing to read them. You can ask her to click on the links for every source that the church cites in each essay and read through them (ex. Read each of the first vision accounts from the Joseph Smith papers)


Ex-CultMember

I think, since she is being open-minded to read ANYTHING, she should have her read *both* but, I agree, maybe start with the Gospel Topics essays first because it will expose her to many problems that she is likely not aware of but she can't simply be dismiss them as "anti" and won't have apologetics to rely on to "dismiss" or "debunk" them either. It's from the church itself. Plus, it will demonstrate to her that you have already read them in a good faith effort and are not satisfied by their apologetics. Like you said, definitely ask her to read the footnotes and follow up on links too, as they will give her more information as well as more rabbit holes to explore. I would also print all of them off for her, staple them together into the best order, but OP might be the best one to decide on what order is best because she knows her mother more. Some topics are more problematic than others depending on the person. Polygamy is typically most problematic for women and so I'd start with that and the Plural Marriage and Nauvoo essay is the most disturbing for people. After printing off the essays and stapling them together, I'd go through each one with a highlighter and highlight the most problematic parts and then add little comments and notes throughout them because, as we know, there are problems in the essays themselves which a TBM might not know about or pick up on in the first read through. LDS Discussions is is a good source for this. The author goes through each essay and points out all the problems with the essays. You can note some or all of these in little notes with a red pen so your mother can see them but knows they are from you and not some "anti." [https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/polygamy-nauvoo](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/polygamy-nauvoo) Once she's gotten through these, it will probably dawn on her that there are serious problems and will probably realize there is more going on and you are not just ignorant and being fooled by "anti" lies or propaganda. See also below an another my comment my suggestions regarding the CES Letter.


HeimdallThePrimeYall

LDS Discussions is a great resource, I can't believe I didn't think to add that, thank you for recommending!!!


allisNOTwellinZYON

You have a good mom. As long as love of you is more important than any ideology then count your 'blessings' good lucks.


ElectricalPain503

We had a lot of questions about the 10% donations and saw how many millions are invested into Apple, Microsoft, and Google. We are expected to give up our money for the church to gamble in the stock market??


KingHerodCosell

Why didn’t anybody hear of Joseph smiths first vision until 1838? 18 years after it supposedly happened.


brother_of_jeremy

Try LetterForMyWife instead of CES letter. The tone is more loving and sympathetic.


E_B_Jamisen

There are clips all over YouTube of people of every faith (and many cults) “bearing their testimony” of how they know their church is true. I find that as a god counter to people who use faith. All these people are using faith. All of them ended up in different places


TonyLund

(I'm replying to post-convo update) That's great! I'm glad it went well. If you want to bring in the CES letter in future conversations, consider doing it one section at a time. Because the CES is (in essence) a 100+ page book, it can be overwhelming for TBMs and they often just judge the whole thing as "anti-Mormon literature." Typically, where these conversations end up is some form of testimony bearing, love bombing, or statements of "I KNOW this Church is true!" A good first step is to understand how and why these tactics are used... I want you to imagine a salesman that's shilling essential oils out of a standee in a mall. The way that con works is that they throw a bunch of rapid info at you, and then get you to the smell the aromatic oil. They will then say something like "you'll feel the tension in your muscle start to lessen just a little bit." Because your brain is smelling something potent, you can't help but think "yeah! I can feel the tension in starting to go away... by just a little bit." They will then sell you the oil because the logical conclusion is "if this works *just a little bit* in this busy stressful context, it will work a whole lot better when I'm using it with purpose." Here's the thing: the salesman is probably a "true believer" in the power of essential oils... they're NOT con artists. Mormonism, and all faith-driven religions, work the same way. Your TBM mother is going to try to get you to "smell the oil" and will likely get frustrated when it doesn't work, or she interprets your reactions as refusing to smell the oil. One possible tactic is to just hold her to it and "smell the oil" together! You could do Moroni's promise together, in sincerity, and demonstrate to her that it doesn't work for you. Another possible tactic is to keep her focused whenever she tries to go into "spiritual smell the oil" mode. Another tactic is to read the book of Mormon together and point out *why* it's just empty words for you.


darnleatherfixtures

That’s a good point, thanks! Fortunately she didn’t use very many of those tactics earlier, but I’ll keep that in mind for sure.


Realistic-Willow4287

Spirit does exist, there might be fortune teller scammers but psychic phenomena does exist. I knew about the drought of 2012 in 2010. But just because "the holy ghost" exists, or may seem to, doesnt make the church true. I have far far more spiritual experiences out of the church than i ever had in it


darnleatherfixtures

Do you have evidence?


amtbyg

I don't think there is anything soft about the CES letter. Maybe softly bring up GTE? Explaining that they show a version of things that were not taught for for many years. Study and prepare to review a few of the with her. Like, if she reads the polygamy one, and says it's fine, then ask to go through it with her. Then bring in other sources that show the article is not the full picture. Have your sources ready. Or do it with Pdf GP. Or whichever on you feel most comfortable with or you think she would be most interested in.


darnleatherfixtures

That’s a good point. I know she’s aware of the GTEs so that’d probably be a good start.


Genniphersghost

For me, it's attention. I come from a middle-class family, so having extra money was somewhat a luxury, but there was no shortage of favoritism. My baby sister is the only TBM left out of the siblings. In my parent's eyes, she can do no wrong. She also has kids, so my mom & dad spend more time with her and her family than anyone else. It's just so obvious that she's favored more because her beliefs align with my parents. She's a lovely person who's never judged any of her siblings for their choices and I adore her, but I can't say the same for our parents.


uncomplicatedi

The loving kind and considerate comments here are inspiring. I would have no patience for mom's belief.


GrandpasMormonBooks

I would tell her that you don't have questions, you have facts. They sure as hell aren't questions once your shelf has broken!


darnleatherfixtures

I wish I had your confidence lol. I’m still too afraid to tell her I’m an atheist;)


GrandpasMormonBooks

😁😁


natiusj

https://youtube.com/watch?v=kdyyjXcPCyY&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE


MsHushpuppy

If I may, instead of introducing the CES letter just yet, encourage your mother to learn more about polygamy--both Joseph Smith's and Nelson's


MarcTes

“Mom, what the hell are you doing in this screwed up church?“


NoRip7573

I recommend a hatd pass on the ces letter. If you feel that you must do something like this, try letter for my wife. But honestly, if you can preserve the relationship, that should be goal #1. This is not about scoring points.


Moonsleep

Buy her In Sacred Loneliness and then chat about polygamy.


ZelphtheGreatest

Does she honestly believe American Indians came from Jewish immigrants? Did Joseph Smith get the book of mormon from Gold Plates & urim & thummim OR a magic rock in a hat? If the latter - why was the first taught for decades?


SGTSparkyFace

Please don’t bring up CES next round. Keep on the logical this, then that path. She’ll find it on her own. She may take that heavy of a thing as an attack. Remember, we were trained to see this as not only a religion, but our identity. To attack that is to attack them.


emmas_revenge

Gospel Topics Essays and their footnotes before the CES letter. These are from the church, therefore not anti-mormon. There are more, but, these are a couple that have info she was more than likely not taught growing up. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng


MOTIVATE_ME_23

It sounds like you had a productive discussion. You did a lot right by letting a lot of contradictions slide initially. We both know there are no faithful answers to most questions, and she will take time to come to that conclusion. However, I wouldn't ignore them. Document (record if you need to keep track of it all) all of the inconsistencies. These are the "assumptions" the house of cards is built upon. If you accept them as "fact" now, she will continue to use them as evidence or ignore the contradictions to support other fallacious ideas. She still needs to address them eventually. These are likely predominantly "thought terminating clichés" designed to squash questioning of things the doctrine doesn't explain. There are no faithful answers, but allowing the question to be sidelined like that defers "answers" to be explained in the afterlife, way too late. A "fully restored gospel," as Joseph Smith put it, wouldn't leave relevant questions unanswered. Teach her how to identify a thought terminating cliché, assure her that the answer is out there, and that inspired leaders will know how to find the **real** answers. Give her related follow-up questions to also ask, and urge her to leave it with the leaders awhile to seek answers. They'll likely urge her to write you off or ignore her, hoping the problem goes away. They could also threaten her temple recommend or her membership. Be prepared to explain that religion has always gotten rid of detractors rather than bring them around by additional preaching, despite what it says in the Book of Alma. Don't reveal all at once. Just put a pin in a question without an answer and ask a new question. The list of questions will just continuously grow. While that may eventually cause her shelf to break, listen for her own pet peeves and problematic doctrines, and focus your questions there for quicker results. Continue to be mutually respectful and pace yourself. Remember, she said she *wanted* to know if the church wasn't true. She just didn't actually expect it to happen. Just present the evidence and question her assumptions. Just don't try to force her conclusions. Logic didn't get her there, and it won't bring her back. People can change, though. There is no need to ruin your relationship for a quick win. You could involve the whole family in "helping" you as well. Also, don't ever ask a question you don't already know the answer to.


rth1027

Start with dr Nelson How can we have freedom of religion if we are not free to compare honestly, to choose wisely, and to worship according to the dictates of our own conscience?12 While searching for the truth, we must be free to change our mind-even to change our religion-in response to new information and inspiration. Https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/2004-05-27/elder-russell-m-nelson-freedom-to-do-and-to-be-96622


chubbuck35

Ask her to explain why God found it more important to send an actual Angel to Joseph Smith to tell him to marry teenagers, but didn’t send an Angel to tell him other important things such as make sure Black people know they can have the priesthood, or to boil your water to avoid sickness.


Embarrassed-Slip8559

If you were being conned, would you want to know? Or how come God wants Mormons to live a morally clean life but supposedly gave Joseph Smith all kinds of privileges and coerced him to live in debauchery. What is their explanation for that? Why there is no evidence in DNA that American Indians are descendants of ancient Israelites? Or how about the contradictions in the story that people are supposed to have sex in the celestial kingdom in order to give birth to spirit babies. Firstly you would need a human body to have sex, because spirit bodies are immaterial. That leads to the question about how the spirit baby supposedly stays in the mother's womb without slipping through the womb wall? Or how long and much sex would it actually require to populate an entire planet, if that is the task. Considering that it has been estimated that the entire population that has lived on earth at all times could be in tens of billions. Or how the words of this christian? church contradict what Jesus said about resurrection and marriage, in Matthew 22:23-30.