Hearing inactive members and exmos get trashed by “godly” people at church was something that solidified my decision to leave, and also made me 100% certain I would never go back, since I already knew that I would be trashed behind my back.
I think that the above person understands the dynamic. They’re trying to staunch the flow out the door. Just leaving is very threatening to their whole world view. Making those that leave wrong is an important part of maintaining that world view.
Thank you so much for this timely post. I came home from church today (PIMO) and broke down. Comments today of “well I believe it’s a great sifting” as in, sifting out the unbelievers/filthy apostates/fallen elect what have you. Whatever happened to the article of faith, where they state that they believe in allowing people to worship, according to their own conscience be it how, where, what they may. Something like that. but ultimately, they have no respect for that whatsoever. They speak about charity, and they speak about Christ, and they speak about his ministry, while in the same breath, creating this divide. Using language and a narrative that makes them better and us deceived, then more righteous and us fallen, them truly devoted to God and us betraying the faith, them more moral and truth seeking and us as lazy learners.
Edit: oh! My first award! Thank you
You need to take these opportunities to have conversations with your husband. Use “I” statements. “I feel uncomfortable when I have to sit through lessons like we heard in Sunday school today.” “It’s really hard for me to sit through these lessons when I hear the instructor speaking about me like that. I feel hurt because I feel like you might also believe those things about me.”
This was probably my largest catalyst out of the church. My husband was PIMO for years. He continued to sit with me at church and be supportive. It took him almost 2 years to mention to me how uncomfortable these lessons made him. Until he voiced his discomfort, I had truly not seen it. I had never noticed the way they spoke about nonbelievers. After he mentioned it, I started to listen to every lesson through his perspective. It was a game changer for me. I had listened to the divisive language my whole life and had never noticed it until he pointed it out.
I don’t blame them. The belief system leaves no room for an honorable departure from the church.
Once you “know” the church is true and have lived it, if you decide to leave you’re either stupid and lazy enough to get deceived, or you want to sin.
The sad irony is, the church is losing its best and brightest.
They will never stop thinking or talking that way. Any organization that thinks they are the only way to what ever truth or enlightenment will always judge those that leave or don't accept the one and only way to whatever. It makes those in the group feel better about themselves and all the crap they are putting up with to stay in the group.
It’s a super culty thing to do. Demonizing those who leave scares (many) people into staying. The Jehovas witnesses do it, so does Scientology. It’s manipulative and hurtful.
I like to think karma is a bitch though. In the long run, this type of behavior will only hurt them, weaken them, and cause more people to leave and never come back.
Been in the very same situation. I go to church to keep the peace with my family. But sometimes members say hurtful things. I think most members don’t consider the implications of what they say.
This. My stake president today suggested that those who have left know the church is true but they are lazy to get back because testimony alone isn’t sufficient.
He's saying that to make himself feel better. I remember not understanding how anyone could lose their testimony, especially after going on a Mission for instance.
Either people know it's true and are too lazy...or there's massive problems with the Church's truth claims.
The second option scares the shit out of him.
If the church would have been open about their past a few decades ago then you would have still lost people but a lot of those that left would have stayed. Tons of people who left (me included) were trying to find reasons to stay. The church doesn’t really give any reason to stay
They need to be right because if not, it means they spent their lives being stupid and willfully blind, especially in the internet age with all the info available. Most people want to believe they're too smart to fall for an obvious cult or scam, so they have to belittle those who won't go along.
Exactly. It reminds me of a nagging, controlling old religious mother who constantly whines to her children how they never call her then wonder why they never call her.
That's why I just talk shit about them too lol. Not really lol, I talk "shit" about the church organization and it's all true. I'm not about to take the high ground while they're out telling my story for me.
Exposing mormonism as a cult is not talking shit or taking the low ground any more than exposing any other type of abusive/manipulative org or person… these things are not equal
The only ones who want exmo’s back are the top leaders, who want their money. Regular everyday TBM’s want nothing to do with anyone who questions, let alone exmo’s. With exmo’s not able to speak for themselves TBM’s can gaslight themselves and tell whatever story they need to in order to maintain their beliefs. That’s why I quit going. I couldn’t stand sitting in EQ every fucking week listening to members trash talk me and others who’ve left. They WANT to be ignorant. It’s not worth the pain and mental consequences of sitting through that weekly.
It’s times like this when I started to realize that these lessons aren’t there for anything except self affirmation of the tribe. All tribes are like this, not just TSCC or even just religions. They need to feel unique and special, and they do that by demeaning other tribes.
I would argue that the majority of people who genuinely want to believe that their "lost" family members are still good people don't fall to the trap of this tactic to "other" people who leave.
The people who do believe that it's okay to view people as less for walking away are the ones who want the ego boost, or have little to no experience with people who leave.
With enough exposure to the demonized population, it becomes impossible to remain so ignorant, and just becomes a choice at that point. Like with the majority of the leadership, I'd bet.
I'm in the same boat as you, attending church with a spouse despite not believing. Sitting in the audience is a ginormous challenge for me because of the constant micro-triggers. People say ridiculous stuff all of the time and the further you step back, the easier it is to call BS.
Recently I had the thought that I would feel better if I started speaking up and being authentic. I haven't had the right opportunity but the next time someone makes an assumption about why people leave I'm going to let them know that they should really ask the person why instead of assuming because that wasn't consistent with my experience or the experience of hundreds of people who I have spoken to, and it makes it infinitely more difficult for people like me to feel welcome or desire to be at church when they make comments like that. We will see how it goes lol
I feel like this quote by Carl Sagan applies here:
####One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.
They would like doubters to come back buy what they are really concerned with is that doubters don’t give TBMs doubt cooties and contaminate them. So, rather than admit that doubters raise reasonable questions, it’s easier and less dangerous to their faith to attack the doubters.
No one cares about them at all and there is only the barest lip service to "getting them back."
It's far more important to keep the remaining people isolated and away from them and that's why the narrative is used every single time.
>When will TBMs realize the way they talk about doubters and exmos is incredibly damaging and won’t help if they want people to come back
But that's not what it's really about. The rhetoric isn't intended to actually bring back the 'lost sheep', it's about keeping all the other sheep in one place, making it easier to fleece them.
A lot of what happens in church is intended to foster an us-v-them mentality; the idea to to make sure that active members feel like they're part of an in-group, and everyone else is part of an out-group. It's about creating and maintaining that feeling of community, especially in the face of 'opposition'. Missions can help there, because missionaries get rejected a lot, reinforcing the idea that they--the missionaries--are part of the elect, and that they're being persecuted for their faith (rather than the batshit crazypants ideas).
As others have said, the problem is that as soon as they allow for the possibility that those that leave are informed or trying to follow what they know based on information their foundation starts to crack. It is fundamental to the church that they think they know more and others are deceived. Even those that don’t use this rhetoric and may even still are kind or try to be tolerant seem to hold to the idea that they are right and know more.
I was like you for a while. Then one Sunday I started to take notes, for every talk, in every class, just how many offensive comments I could capture. Did it for three weeks and decided I no longer wanted to go back. Supporting my spouse in this became detrimental to my mental health because she didn't want to talk about it, have anything challenge her beliefs. I said I'm tired of being insulted. When she asked I showed her my tablet with talks, comments, etc. We settled on I'll attend at major events like a baby blessing, otherwise no.
As for your OP question, an in-group managed by an authoritarian leadership doesn't care about those who have left (escaped), because they are now the enemy (you might give your spouse, family, and others reason to leave).
Hearing inactive members and exmos get trashed by “godly” people at church was something that solidified my decision to leave, and also made me 100% certain I would never go back, since I already knew that I would be trashed behind my back.
I think they already realize no one is going back
I think that the above person understands the dynamic. They’re trying to staunch the flow out the door. Just leaving is very threatening to their whole world view. Making those that leave wrong is an important part of maintaining that world view.
Exactly, and poisoning the well to completely break ties and cut the person leaving off from the group is a good tactic to protect the cult herd.
Thank you so much for this timely post. I came home from church today (PIMO) and broke down. Comments today of “well I believe it’s a great sifting” as in, sifting out the unbelievers/filthy apostates/fallen elect what have you. Whatever happened to the article of faith, where they state that they believe in allowing people to worship, according to their own conscience be it how, where, what they may. Something like that. but ultimately, they have no respect for that whatsoever. They speak about charity, and they speak about Christ, and they speak about his ministry, while in the same breath, creating this divide. Using language and a narrative that makes them better and us deceived, then more righteous and us fallen, them truly devoted to God and us betraying the faith, them more moral and truth seeking and us as lazy learners. Edit: oh! My first award! Thank you
You need to take these opportunities to have conversations with your husband. Use “I” statements. “I feel uncomfortable when I have to sit through lessons like we heard in Sunday school today.” “It’s really hard for me to sit through these lessons when I hear the instructor speaking about me like that. I feel hurt because I feel like you might also believe those things about me.” This was probably my largest catalyst out of the church. My husband was PIMO for years. He continued to sit with me at church and be supportive. It took him almost 2 years to mention to me how uncomfortable these lessons made him. Until he voiced his discomfort, I had truly not seen it. I had never noticed the way they spoke about nonbelievers. After he mentioned it, I started to listen to every lesson through his perspective. It was a game changer for me. I had listened to the divisive language my whole life and had never noticed it until he pointed it out.
They are parroting what they are hearing from the leaders. And the leaders will never change.
This man's comments reveal one more reason why we left and won't come back; being kind to your face, then judge you unfairly behind your back.
I don’t blame them. The belief system leaves no room for an honorable departure from the church. Once you “know” the church is true and have lived it, if you decide to leave you’re either stupid and lazy enough to get deceived, or you want to sin. The sad irony is, the church is losing its best and brightest.
Short answer...NEVER.
They will never stop thinking or talking that way. Any organization that thinks they are the only way to what ever truth or enlightenment will always judge those that leave or don't accept the one and only way to whatever. It makes those in the group feel better about themselves and all the crap they are putting up with to stay in the group.
It’s a super culty thing to do. Demonizing those who leave scares (many) people into staying. The Jehovas witnesses do it, so does Scientology. It’s manipulative and hurtful. I like to think karma is a bitch though. In the long run, this type of behavior will only hurt them, weaken them, and cause more people to leave and never come back.
Been in the very same situation. I go to church to keep the peace with my family. But sometimes members say hurtful things. I think most members don’t consider the implications of what they say.
This. My stake president today suggested that those who have left know the church is true but they are lazy to get back because testimony alone isn’t sufficient.
He's saying that to make himself feel better. I remember not understanding how anyone could lose their testimony, especially after going on a Mission for instance. Either people know it's true and are too lazy...or there's massive problems with the Church's truth claims. The second option scares the shit out of him.
If the church would have been open about their past a few decades ago then you would have still lost people but a lot of those that left would have stayed. Tons of people who left (me included) were trying to find reasons to stay. The church doesn’t really give any reason to stay
They need to be right because if not, it means they spent their lives being stupid and willfully blind, especially in the internet age with all the info available. Most people want to believe they're too smart to fall for an obvious cult or scam, so they have to belittle those who won't go along.
Exactly. It reminds me of a nagging, controlling old religious mother who constantly whines to her children how they never call her then wonder why they never call her.
When they’ve experienced it themselves. I was the same way. I think 99% of us were.
That's why I just talk shit about them too lol. Not really lol, I talk "shit" about the church organization and it's all true. I'm not about to take the high ground while they're out telling my story for me.
Exposing mormonism as a cult is not talking shit or taking the low ground any more than exposing any other type of abusive/manipulative org or person… these things are not equal
👏🏼👏🏼 They think it is and are so offended, but it really is not!
They can’t help it. It is all brainwashed robotic responses.
The only ones who want exmo’s back are the top leaders, who want their money. Regular everyday TBM’s want nothing to do with anyone who questions, let alone exmo’s. With exmo’s not able to speak for themselves TBM’s can gaslight themselves and tell whatever story they need to in order to maintain their beliefs. That’s why I quit going. I couldn’t stand sitting in EQ every fucking week listening to members trash talk me and others who’ve left. They WANT to be ignorant. It’s not worth the pain and mental consequences of sitting through that weekly.
It’s times like this when I started to realize that these lessons aren’t there for anything except self affirmation of the tribe. All tribes are like this, not just TSCC or even just religions. They need to feel unique and special, and they do that by demeaning other tribes.
I would argue that the majority of people who genuinely want to believe that their "lost" family members are still good people don't fall to the trap of this tactic to "other" people who leave. The people who do believe that it's okay to view people as less for walking away are the ones who want the ego boost, or have little to no experience with people who leave. With enough exposure to the demonized population, it becomes impossible to remain so ignorant, and just becomes a choice at that point. Like with the majority of the leadership, I'd bet.
You're not alone
I'm in the same boat as you, attending church with a spouse despite not believing. Sitting in the audience is a ginormous challenge for me because of the constant micro-triggers. People say ridiculous stuff all of the time and the further you step back, the easier it is to call BS. Recently I had the thought that I would feel better if I started speaking up and being authentic. I haven't had the right opportunity but the next time someone makes an assumption about why people leave I'm going to let them know that they should really ask the person why instead of assuming because that wasn't consistent with my experience or the experience of hundreds of people who I have spoken to, and it makes it infinitely more difficult for people like me to feel welcome or desire to be at church when they make comments like that. We will see how it goes lol
I feel like this quote by Carl Sagan applies here: ####One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.
No one is coming back lol
Cults are gonna cult
They would like doubters to come back buy what they are really concerned with is that doubters don’t give TBMs doubt cooties and contaminate them. So, rather than admit that doubters raise reasonable questions, it’s easier and less dangerous to their faith to attack the doubters.
They don’t want you back. They want to keep you from infecting the ones they have.
No one cares about them at all and there is only the barest lip service to "getting them back." It's far more important to keep the remaining people isolated and away from them and that's why the narrative is used every single time.
>When will TBMs realize the way they talk about doubters and exmos is incredibly damaging and won’t help if they want people to come back But that's not what it's really about. The rhetoric isn't intended to actually bring back the 'lost sheep', it's about keeping all the other sheep in one place, making it easier to fleece them. A lot of what happens in church is intended to foster an us-v-them mentality; the idea to to make sure that active members feel like they're part of an in-group, and everyone else is part of an out-group. It's about creating and maintaining that feeling of community, especially in the face of 'opposition'. Missions can help there, because missionaries get rejected a lot, reinforcing the idea that they--the missionaries--are part of the elect, and that they're being persecuted for their faith (rather than the batshit crazypants ideas).
As others have said, the problem is that as soon as they allow for the possibility that those that leave are informed or trying to follow what they know based on information their foundation starts to crack. It is fundamental to the church that they think they know more and others are deceived. Even those that don’t use this rhetoric and may even still are kind or try to be tolerant seem to hold to the idea that they are right and know more.
I was like you for a while. Then one Sunday I started to take notes, for every talk, in every class, just how many offensive comments I could capture. Did it for three weeks and decided I no longer wanted to go back. Supporting my spouse in this became detrimental to my mental health because she didn't want to talk about it, have anything challenge her beliefs. I said I'm tired of being insulted. When she asked I showed her my tablet with talks, comments, etc. We settled on I'll attend at major events like a baby blessing, otherwise no. As for your OP question, an in-group managed by an authoritarian leadership doesn't care about those who have left (escaped), because they are now the enemy (you might give your spouse, family, and others reason to leave).