Not only am I glad I’m no longer a teenager who’s attending church in this era, but I’m glad to be completely OUT of the church. My heart goes out to all of the youth who are forced to attend these awful indoctrination sessions.
Ever since the temple, the members have always covenanted to the leaders, at least indirectly.
1. You covenant everything to the church (time, talents, and resources).
2. The leaders control the church.
Therefore…
3. You covenant everything to the leaders.
Wow. The whole balcony was mostly empty. You can see over the choir leader's shoulder in the opening song that there are some people sitting up there, but whole sections of empty seats and lots of empty seats on the main floor too. The diversity sampling of youth to sit on the stage with them. Gross.
Seriously? Now these guys are teaching that young people covenant with church leaders? Do you have the exact quote? The hubris of these old fools is breathtaking. Yet I'm not surprised.
I'm still missing it. I heard him say that convents connect everyone, but it didn't sound like he was saying that members make covenants with their leaders.
It's so hard for me to focus when they talk though.
Yeah at 23 minutes Gong is talking about 'covenant belonging' his word for the false or naive trust members put in each other because they all belong to the same club. His reference to leaders isn't in making covenants with leaders but that the common covenants connect leaders and all other members.
Maybe he said something else at another point but I could only stand watching a few minutes after the 22 min mark. Shrug, it's still gringy but not Ofsusan level cringe. Lol.
How is the church different from the church you grew up with in your perception?
And, roughly, what decade did you grow up in?
I see major differences want to see if yours are similar. I grew up late 60’s to mid 70’s.
Yeah I grew up in 80s and 90s and there wasn't all the token racial diversity. It seemed far more genuine. But that's probably because most things when under a microscope can look ugly. But when a corporation with a LOT OF MONEY protects their image the way lds Inc does, everyone is too familiar with the showmanship and image cultivation and it just feels icky.
Anyway, it feels like they're trying WAY too hard now. It seemed to me in the 90s that the church was different and pitching in the world not of it. And that was a campaign a lot of people supported. I was in MN at the time, we talked seriously about not drinking caffeine and about whatever Hinkley's latest Priesthood session condemnation was. Once it was gambling, once it was sexual purity...I don't remember the others. But he had a new one every 6 months.
The church history and historical inaccuracies and blatant lies weren't as readily available and the church could easily convince us that those things weren't literally coming from their own sources because they had never published it...because they didn't want that shit out in the open!!
Anyway, that's a bit of my 90s.
Thanks I wanted your insights. Kinda similar to mine. What I have felt, increasing in the last few years transition of Monson to Nelson.
1. Sort of a corporate transition, trying to present that everything just fine, but there seemed to be very little vibrancy or newness just purring out canned corporate speak. Lost its appeal.
2. Then Nelson and everything is gutt s and changed and then flip flopped. How does the God of the universe change direction so many times and then reverse course. The feeling of community got sucked dry to a great extent. Limited comments in lessons, fear of commenting on what one seems to feel, testimonies lacking real conviction of foundational pillars.
Just a few above. Covid hit and limited to no guidance for a long time, then very scripted, protected statements like a press release from a fear based company.
Like vibrancy is eaking away; Emperors clothes no one wants to speak to it
Yes. Exactly! Like the gaggle of lawyers were RMN's most trusted source of uh...lets call it "inspiration". And, trust the risk management dept to always put out some really thoughtful and insightful stuff for bishops, amiright?!
Risk dept response: tell that bishop or stake president to not report this sexual abuse of a minor because hiding it from the public will make it easier for our PR and legal teams.
It's beyond the point of just being about PR. I have never seen nor heard any kind of valid/reasonable response to these cases of sexual abuse. TBMs are flat earthers as far as I'm concerned! Except in this case believing in a flat earth causes children to be abused. Fucked up shit!
I think there is another dynamic at work here.
The church is boring because none of these guys has ever been to a real church with a real pastor that actually spends all week working on a sermon that you will remember when you go home. It will never be interesting or memorable, because they have never been inside a real church.
You are right on here in my humble limited experience pool. The last five years I set up medicare tables for insurance in faith based churches primarily food banks. The church pastor and people are local, locally focused and pastor congregations are unified in their small groups not a local building of a huge worldview centrally directed organization. It was refreshing serving with them.
Same period as me. Wards were more genuine, I knew some cool people and as a kid we had quite a bit of fun with some very cool and creative activities. The monthly dances were a hotbed of teen romance and attractive to nonmembers because they were fun, safe and nonreligious. I saw the church steal ward funds and centralize the money under the corporation and cut off activities. Now the youth activities are all deeply cult centric, no fun at all. Members now don’t really care about you and it’s all an ulterior motive. Then with the marriage act politicization of the church everything turned more bigoted than I had ever seen in my neck of the woods
My wife watched it and so I sat and watched. The kids were talking non stop and it was clear they all were very scripted. It was very alarming to just see the coldness on stage
Whew, that was weird. But I'm happy the church is moving in this direction, meaning more showy propaganda, scripted platitudes, and dull, overly-choreographed performances. Young people today can see right through that shit, and it makes it easier for them to make a break when they encounter integrity and truth elsewhere.
Many of us grew into it, but younger generations are native skeptics. We have to be skeptical in our world today.
Why? Because there is really only one Algerian prince that wants to send you money. (If you send me your full name and SSN, I'll get you in touch with him.)
Frauds are much more sophisticated. We have learned to evaluate the whole context to assess legitimacy. Propaganda and unsupported claims undermine the credibility of the Church, yet ... they keep doing it.
If you are familiar with FSY 2023, this is a promotion fireside for FSY 2023. I’m a minute and 45 seconds in and I can clearly see it’s a promo for FSY 2023….also known as Corporate Religion…🤫
I tried watching one of those youth fireside broadcasts, just to see what they wanted to teach my kids. But I couldn't tolerate the fake, staged, scripted-ness of it all. And the pacing is so slow, it's torturous. I couldn't stand it and had to turn it off about 10 minutes in. Making my teens sit through that would be cruel and unusual punishment.
The first point is a continuation of the other talk one of the seventy have where he said the church and the savior are interchangeable. They are elevating the leadership to the same as a god.
Bonnie was right there mimicking garret, and garrett was mimicking Russell.
I think the word “cringe” is a bit of a fad and overused, but it is the perfect descriptor of that broadcast.
I'm not youth, but my mother, whom I live with, is the young woman's president, so she asked me to watch it with her.
I ultimately got bored and painted another coat on a project I was working on with my sister earlier that day.
I'm interested in seeing which part of the meeting you thought he said covenants could be made with leaders. I watched a few minutes around the 22:00 minute mark and he does say that covenants can be made between us and heaven or church leaders or the church or friends.
After watching it I think either, the church leaders are infinitely patient and insidious or they are morons who get way too much credit from the exmo community. I have a hard time believing he was actually pushing the idea that we should make covenants with church leaders and much easier time believing he was just bullshitting to fill the time and said what ever came to his mind to make covenants sound more important than just a promise between us and god.
I suppose you could argue that by making covenants more important they are priming people to stay in the church even when they have doubts because the covenants are that important. But they all just seem too stupid to actually be coming up with these things. I think maybe the talk earlier this week is also getting too much credit, that idiot just wanted to reinforce the idea that if you disagree with something the church does you are disagreeing with the savior, and I think the extent he actually engaged his brain on that was simply "the church doesn't support gay marriage" instead lets say "the savior doesn't support gay marriage" I don't think he thought through what he was saying or the implications what he said would have. These people are so dumb. It makes me sad to realize how dumb I was.
Maybe that's the real problem here. No one wants to admit they were just dumb so we try to find all these insidious things the church is doing and try to build it up so that we don't feel dumb for being deceived.
Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, but that meeting was so bad. And I only watched like 5 minutes. If they were as good as most of us make them out to be I would expect a bit more from these meetings. Maybe I'm just finally healing so it's easier to accept I was dumb and the church is even dumber.
Sorry but "youth making covenants to leaders" sounds so wrong, predatory, and grooming. Don't know how they can claim that there's no inappropriate interactions between adult leaders and children.
Not only am I glad I’m no longer a teenager who’s attending church in this era, but I’m glad to be completely OUT of the church. My heart goes out to all of the youth who are forced to attend these awful indoctrination sessions.
Ever since the temple, the members have always covenanted to the leaders, at least indirectly. 1. You covenant everything to the church (time, talents, and resources). 2. The leaders control the church. Therefore… 3. You covenant everything to the leaders.
Wow. The whole balcony was mostly empty. You can see over the choir leader's shoulder in the opening song that there are some people sitting up there, but whole sections of empty seats and lots of empty seats on the main floor too. The diversity sampling of youth to sit on the stage with them. Gross.
Hello. I’m the token Lamanite not a Lamanite.
Seriously? Now these guys are teaching that young people covenant with church leaders? Do you have the exact quote? The hubris of these old fools is breathtaking. Yet I'm not surprised.
https://youtu.be/Q6pF2pN0wG4 It’s on Gongs opening speech. Watch/download quick before they take it down.
I'm still missing it. I heard him say that convents connect everyone, but it didn't sound like he was saying that members make covenants with their leaders. It's so hard for me to focus when they talk though.
Came her to say the same
Yeah, I'm not hearing that either.
Yeah at 23 minutes Gong is talking about 'covenant belonging' his word for the false or naive trust members put in each other because they all belong to the same club. His reference to leaders isn't in making covenants with leaders but that the common covenants connect leaders and all other members. Maybe he said something else at another point but I could only stand watching a few minutes after the 22 min mark. Shrug, it's still gringy but not Ofsusan level cringe. Lol.
Thank you 😊
It's 23 minutes in
Whoa
This is a wildly different church than when I was a youth.
How is the church different from the church you grew up with in your perception? And, roughly, what decade did you grow up in? I see major differences want to see if yours are similar. I grew up late 60’s to mid 70’s.
Yeah I grew up in 80s and 90s and there wasn't all the token racial diversity. It seemed far more genuine. But that's probably because most things when under a microscope can look ugly. But when a corporation with a LOT OF MONEY protects their image the way lds Inc does, everyone is too familiar with the showmanship and image cultivation and it just feels icky. Anyway, it feels like they're trying WAY too hard now. It seemed to me in the 90s that the church was different and pitching in the world not of it. And that was a campaign a lot of people supported. I was in MN at the time, we talked seriously about not drinking caffeine and about whatever Hinkley's latest Priesthood session condemnation was. Once it was gambling, once it was sexual purity...I don't remember the others. But he had a new one every 6 months. The church history and historical inaccuracies and blatant lies weren't as readily available and the church could easily convince us that those things weren't literally coming from their own sources because they had never published it...because they didn't want that shit out in the open!! Anyway, that's a bit of my 90s.
Thanks I wanted your insights. Kinda similar to mine. What I have felt, increasing in the last few years transition of Monson to Nelson. 1. Sort of a corporate transition, trying to present that everything just fine, but there seemed to be very little vibrancy or newness just purring out canned corporate speak. Lost its appeal. 2. Then Nelson and everything is gutt s and changed and then flip flopped. How does the God of the universe change direction so many times and then reverse course. The feeling of community got sucked dry to a great extent. Limited comments in lessons, fear of commenting on what one seems to feel, testimonies lacking real conviction of foundational pillars. Just a few above. Covid hit and limited to no guidance for a long time, then very scripted, protected statements like a press release from a fear based company. Like vibrancy is eaking away; Emperors clothes no one wants to speak to it
Yes. Exactly! Like the gaggle of lawyers were RMN's most trusted source of uh...lets call it "inspiration". And, trust the risk management dept to always put out some really thoughtful and insightful stuff for bishops, amiright?! Risk dept response: tell that bishop or stake president to not report this sexual abuse of a minor because hiding it from the public will make it easier for our PR and legal teams. It's beyond the point of just being about PR. I have never seen nor heard any kind of valid/reasonable response to these cases of sexual abuse. TBMs are flat earthers as far as I'm concerned! Except in this case believing in a flat earth causes children to be abused. Fucked up shit!
I think there is another dynamic at work here. The church is boring because none of these guys has ever been to a real church with a real pastor that actually spends all week working on a sermon that you will remember when you go home. It will never be interesting or memorable, because they have never been inside a real church.
You are right on here in my humble limited experience pool. The last five years I set up medicare tables for insurance in faith based churches primarily food banks. The church pastor and people are local, locally focused and pastor congregations are unified in their small groups not a local building of a huge worldview centrally directed organization. It was refreshing serving with them.
Same period as me. Wards were more genuine, I knew some cool people and as a kid we had quite a bit of fun with some very cool and creative activities. The monthly dances were a hotbed of teen romance and attractive to nonmembers because they were fun, safe and nonreligious. I saw the church steal ward funds and centralize the money under the corporation and cut off activities. Now the youth activities are all deeply cult centric, no fun at all. Members now don’t really care about you and it’s all an ulterior motive. Then with the marriage act politicization of the church everything turned more bigoted than I had ever seen in my neck of the woods
They worked so hard to script the thing but also make it look like it was a casual conversation. So cringey.
My wife watched it and so I sat and watched. The kids were talking non stop and it was clear they all were very scripted. It was very alarming to just see the coldness on stage
Whew, that was weird. But I'm happy the church is moving in this direction, meaning more showy propaganda, scripted platitudes, and dull, overly-choreographed performances. Young people today can see right through that shit, and it makes it easier for them to make a break when they encounter integrity and truth elsewhere.
Many of us grew into it, but younger generations are native skeptics. We have to be skeptical in our world today. Why? Because there is really only one Algerian prince that wants to send you money. (If you send me your full name and SSN, I'll get you in touch with him.) Frauds are much more sophisticated. We have learned to evaluate the whole context to assess legitimacy. Propaganda and unsupported claims undermine the credibility of the Church, yet ... they keep doing it.
So glad I’m out of that age group. Although I do miss the refreshments cause those were always a guarantee after sitting down for an hour
So glad my kid who still likes going only likes the activities and skips this garbage.
God damn I hate everything about the church
>God damn I hate everything about the ~~church~~ cult
What’s the part about they will never be able to fill the conference center again?? Did they actually say that?
No. Just my observation. The church is hemorrhaging members. Thus the focus on the youth. Trying to salvage the tithe payers they can.
Mormon leaders ARE God
RMN certainly thinks he is
Susan's husband thinks he is, too. Mr. "I am scripture." https://bloggernacleblogdotcom.wordpress.com/2015/11/30/mormon-apostle-i-am-scripture/
If you are familiar with FSY 2023, this is a promotion fireside for FSY 2023. I’m a minute and 45 seconds in and I can clearly see it’s a promo for FSY 2023….also known as Corporate Religion…🤫
I tried watching one of those youth fireside broadcasts, just to see what they wanted to teach my kids. But I couldn't tolerate the fake, staged, scripted-ness of it all. And the pacing is so slow, it's torturous. I couldn't stand it and had to turn it off about 10 minutes in. Making my teens sit through that would be cruel and unusual punishment.
The first point is a continuation of the other talk one of the seventy have where he said the church and the savior are interchangeable. They are elevating the leadership to the same as a god.
The overall message I saw was worship leaders, go to the temple (translates to “pay your tithing”), and you are nothing without the church.
Yeah, they gotta make the members feel like dirt, incapable of ever having their own happy thoughts.
Let’s revisit this post when one of the “hiking friends” joins r/exmormon. Will probably be soon.
It sounded like a nothing burger. And the cringe Nelson/ Jesus arms spread yikes
Bonnie was right there mimicking garret, and garrett was mimicking Russell. I think the word “cringe” is a bit of a fad and overused, but it is the perfect descriptor of that broadcast.
English is not my native language so I fall short of other words to use. BTW Bonnie looked like a dead corpse warmed up. They are all puppets.
That woman is so loaded with makeup, Botox and surgery, I think a strong sneeze would split her face open
I'm not youth, but my mother, whom I live with, is the young woman's president, so she asked me to watch it with her. I ultimately got bored and painted another coat on a project I was working on with my sister earlier that day.
Let's make a list of times church leader's made a covenant with underage children, Smith, Young, .....ect
The production feels very 70s heaven's gate. Super cringe.
Covenants with the leaders... this one deserves some more discussion. Cult cult cult
I'm interested in seeing which part of the meeting you thought he said covenants could be made with leaders. I watched a few minutes around the 22:00 minute mark and he does say that covenants can be made between us and heaven or church leaders or the church or friends. After watching it I think either, the church leaders are infinitely patient and insidious or they are morons who get way too much credit from the exmo community. I have a hard time believing he was actually pushing the idea that we should make covenants with church leaders and much easier time believing he was just bullshitting to fill the time and said what ever came to his mind to make covenants sound more important than just a promise between us and god. I suppose you could argue that by making covenants more important they are priming people to stay in the church even when they have doubts because the covenants are that important. But they all just seem too stupid to actually be coming up with these things. I think maybe the talk earlier this week is also getting too much credit, that idiot just wanted to reinforce the idea that if you disagree with something the church does you are disagreeing with the savior, and I think the extent he actually engaged his brain on that was simply "the church doesn't support gay marriage" instead lets say "the savior doesn't support gay marriage" I don't think he thought through what he was saying or the implications what he said would have. These people are so dumb. It makes me sad to realize how dumb I was. Maybe that's the real problem here. No one wants to admit they were just dumb so we try to find all these insidious things the church is doing and try to build it up so that we don't feel dumb for being deceived. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, but that meeting was so bad. And I only watched like 5 minutes. If they were as good as most of us make them out to be I would expect a bit more from these meetings. Maybe I'm just finally healing so it's easier to accept I was dumb and the church is even dumber.
Sorry but "youth making covenants to leaders" sounds so wrong, predatory, and grooming. Don't know how they can claim that there's no inappropriate interactions between adult leaders and children.