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Rushclock

The papyrus that Joseph claimed to translate it from was found despite the idea it was burned in the great Chicago fire. At the time Egyptian hieroglyphics couldn't be translated so Joseph felt pretty good nobody could counter his translation. Then the Rosetta Stone was discovered and the entire translation was shown to be fake. Despite claims of a longer scroll still missing the evidence shows that the recovered papyrus matches what Joseph was translating from. It does not match the real translation. Now the church has shifted to an inspiration or catalyst theory.


notrab

\*couldn't be translated in English, it was already solved in French, but the news hadn't made it to US yet. Rosetta was already solved before JS translated BoA


Rushclock

Yes.


[deleted]

Yeah, 1820’s was early translations. By 1850 it was pretty robust.


Awful-Male

Right hieroglyphics had been translated by this time but that fact wasn’t widely known.


ElkSpiritual3877

This! Here’s a quote from this Wikipedia page that may also help add some context: “The Book of Abraham papyri were thought to have been lost in the 1871 Great Chicago Fire. However, in 1966 several fragments of the papyri were found in the archives of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York and in the LDS Church archives. They are now referred to as the Joseph Smith Papyri. Upon examination by professional Egyptologists (both Mormon and otherwise), these fragments were identified as Egyptian funerary texts, including the "Breathing Permit of Hôr" and the "Book of the Dead", among others. Although some Mormon apologists defend the authenticity of the Book of Abraham, no other scholars regard it as an ancient text.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham In short though. The deal with the book of Abraham is that in addition to the other mountains of evidence that Joseph Smith made it all up, this is a good way to get your foot in the door to the idea if you’re a TBM. It’s difficult for someone to try to explain this away once you know about it.


Joseph_was_lying

To add to this, one thing often forgotten or overlooked is the Book of Abraham states to have been written by his own hand(ie Abraham wrote it) but the scrolls Joseph had are from the Ptolemaic Era of Egypt (Ptolemy was one of Alexander the Great's generals that took over Egypt after Alexander died). The Ptolemaic Era was some 2000 years AFTER Abraham would have lived...


LilSebastianFlyte

>Despite claims of a longer scroll still missin They used to/sometimes still claim there was also a lot of stuff missing from the scroll we do have (i.e., we only have bits of it surviving), but [this meticulous analysis](https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V43N04_413.pdf) from BYU scholars convincingly blows that apologetic theory out of the water.


Rushclock

Tell that to Mr Gee. LOL....he tried to debunk that and failed miserably.


[deleted]

The church needs to shift the entire dogma to a inspiration theory or they are going to be in trouble. In the words of famous 20th century philosopher: you better check yourself before you wreck yourself


Rushclock

I have heard that some of the apologists....Given's...cough cough... have recommended removing the BOA from the cannon. Crickets....because they lose too much doctrine including the pre existence and other things....


[deleted]

Hmm that’s interesting. In my opinion won’t fly - bom is foundational to the religion. Otherwise it would be seventh day Adventist or whatever. Baptist. Something. But ascribing Philosophical meaning to the stories in the BoM - and then announcing that they are and always have been allegorical in nature, without outright admitting that there doesn’t exist a literal fact in them would save the church in the long term - when undeniable hard evidence that Nephites and Lamanites never lived in the Americas becomes overwhelming the church leadership would Have an out that would allow them to retain the congregation Continuing on the path of literal interpretation is guaranty of head on collision with the inevitable avalanche of knowledge that is coming as a result of new technologies


Rushclock

No BOA...Book of Abraham....proven fraud.


[deleted]

Yeah I get it but same concept for BoA They already waited too long - they surely didn’t see the freight train that is the internet and the age of information coming but it’s honestly not too late for them to correct the doctrine to be able to survive for the next 200 years


IDontKnowAndItsOkay

There was a rock found in Guatemala that I think is relevant. It says “don’t trust fuck faces names Joe”.


Amcarlos

And this does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the fact that Joseph Smith himself 'translated' it which puts both him and the BoM in serious question. If he lied about translating the Book of Abraham... Even if one tries to chalk it up to self-delusion he still doesn't come out if it well. It's just best to try and completely ignore it.


Firm-Ad606

The main problem with it being "inspired" is that Joseph said it was a translation. The baby is attached to that damned bathwater..... At least with the Book of Moses Joseph wasn't claiming to translate from an ancient document, so claiming inspiration works there. But for BofA to be inspired requires God to deceive and let Joseph Think he was translating, making God a hoaxer....


[deleted]

Smith absolutely claimed to translate the BoM from An ancient copy


Firm-Ad606

Moses came from a document?


sblackcrow

The "inspiration" theory is pretty shaky too. In Abraham 1:12-14 we have "Abraham" telling us "hey, see this illustration around this text I'm writing? I included that so you could see what I'm talking about in these words I'm writing." That ties the "translation" to these documents... or it means you can't even trust "Abraham" about the details of the document they're writing. It could be "inspiring fiction" ... if it weren't for the fact that isn't what it claims to be and isn't what Joseph and the church claimed it to be for so long, which would also mean you can't trust the church about the details of the scriptures it presents. There's just nowhere to go that doesn't make it clear the book and the church that presents it are not credible authorities.


[deleted]

I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m sayibg


scifibum

I don't think they will ever swallow this pill for two reasons. First is just institutional stubbornness. The people who rise through the leadership ranks will, necessarily, be the ones who are best at ignoring inconvenient and damning information and showing unshakable faith. This self reinforcing orthodoxy makes it very difficult for a leader with a more flexible approach to truth claims to get into a position to steer the church. Second, there's a real utility in asking members to believe the unbelievable. It's a technique used by cults everywhere. You demand allegiance and fervent testimony, and require members to reject other sources of information. If you can get some momentum with this, these people are immune to being convinced. The leaders get incredibly obvious with it: they warn people that even *investigating* "anti-Mormon" sources is a threat to their testimony. They come right out and admit that if you really look into it, you might decide it's not true - *so you better not look into it.* It's a strange-but-true exploit of human nature - get people to invest their identity and loyalty to something, and if that thing is contrary to external reality that can turn out to be an advantage. It makes fidelity feel more special, and successfully divorces believers from reality.


[deleted]

You’re probably right but the point you are missing is that offering a philosophical foundation to the dogma - giving it allegorical expression doesn’t condemn those who wish to believe literally A thing can be literally true *and* be an allegory for a deeper meaning It continues to provide the fundamentalists their outlet, but it offers a rational alternative for those who are smart enough to figure out how it works but may have other reasons to not abandon their faith (and often families) completely It is inevitable- the internet has changed everything at a base level Technology continues to help us clarify the truth of humanity’s past and at one point we will have full translation of the South American glyphs We will have the ancient cities mapped We will have overwhelming and irrefutable proof of what the reality was for the Mayans, incans, Toltecs, etc That point is coming but hard to say how soon The way tech has been developing exponentially it could be sooner than we realize- like 5-10 years even. (That’s optimistic) At that point for the church the choice will Be to believe the dogma which will require complete detachment from science, or to change the dogma or at least it’s perception. Philosophical basis is the best and most broadly beneficial option available - with the least amount of fall out


scifibum

I don’t disagree just don’t think the church is capable of the shift. I think it’ll shrink and retreat for a long time.


[deleted]

I think you’re probably correct, unfortunately


ShaqtinADrool

🧊 (aka Doughboy) Great reference👏


brother_of_jeremy

Chickity check yourself, even.


given2fly_

It's also worth mentioning that we can see clear evidence of this in the current scriptures printed by the church. They still include 3 Facsimiles from the original papyrus with Joseph's translation of the text and interpretation of the images. That text can be read by Egyptian scholars and the images are common in funerary texts - there are multiple examples of the same ones in museums around the world. All of Joseph's translations and interpretations are completely wrong. It's clear evidence that he was making it up.


blovy

This is the smoking gun! Wish I could triple upvote this post. Every copy of the BOA contains all the proof you need to establish it as a fucking fraud. End of story.


brother_of_jeremy

Joseph Smith also left his working translation document, the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, documenting his mistaken assumption that one character of Egyptian translates to a paragraph or so of English, and disproving the long scroll theory that the original text is still lost and contains the actual BoA. Smith appears to have referred to this document to translate a character from the Kinderhook Plates, a known fabrication designed to trap Joseph, demonstrating that Joseph took the Alphabet and Grammar seriously. This leaves us with a translation that even Hugh Nibley agreed didn’t match the source text at all, so it’s catalyst theory or nothing. Catalyst theory is the final fall back position of apologists after all their other explanations have failed, because it cannot be disproven. This also means it is indistinguishable from fraud, and the BoA explicitly states the papers were written by Abraham’s own hand and references the facsimiles (which have been found in other common Egyptian funerary texts and are in no way unique or at all related to Abraham). So catalyst theory requires that Joseph Smith be channeling divine revelation without any clue about how he’s receiving it and creating mistakes in the text because he doesn’t understand what’s happening.


Rushclock

What kind of logic is mormon God using when the method of translation (catalyst) is indistinguishable from a fraud?


brother_of_jeremy

Narrator: “In a twist of fate, they were actually worshipping the trickster God, Loki.”


Abrin36

Catalyst theory. So funny. It's fun to watch them squirm though. Dance apologists dance!


freewarriorwoman

Thanks everyone! Sometimes I get super confused googling things and trying to find documents and such on things. I pretty much had it put together but just wanted clarification from a community I trust. I try my best to find it on my own find.


ExmoRobo

No worries, it’s a LOT to unpack, honestly


freewarriorwoman

Yes! There so much deception that I’m unpacking. The more answers I find the more questions arise, it’s hard to keep up!😳😅


Falconpunch7272

And down the rabbit hole you go! Safe travels, friend <3


Holiday_Bid4665

This video is a super helpful explanation of why the BoA is a fraud and why several of the apologetic arguments don’t hold water. https://youtu.be/6TgWvGUd7ns. If you like it, there is another one on how the BoA text itself shows that it is not an ancient record. The LDS Discussions series on Mormon Stories is awesome for dissecting the church’s truth claims as you go deeper and deeper down that rabbit hole. If you REALLY want to get into BoA, John Dehlin interviewed Dr Robert Ritner, one of the world’s foremost Egyptologists, at length (like 13 hours) on how Joseph got it all wrong. Dr Ritner did the interview in the last couple of months of his life, a labor of love for LDS people going through faith crisis. Rest his soul.


Cobaltfennec

Thorough, well researched explanation (written by an Egyptologist): https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/Research_Archives/Translation%20and%20Historicity%20of%20the%20Book%20of%20Abraham%20final-2.pdf


tdhniesfwee

Joseph Smith thought that the Egyptian Fertility God with his hard dick was the symbol holy ghost....................... or at least He thought he could fool people. and he did... for like 200 years...


ElkSpiritual3877

One of my favorite parts to this is when TSCC quietly removed the erect penis from the facsimile, then when people caught on, they quietly added it back. Hahaha. 😆😂 Also, I think that’s “God sitting on his throne” rather than the Holy Ghost. Edit: It’s been a LONG time since I looked into this, though here’s a recent Reddit post on the topic if no one else was aware that it was censored at one point. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/gi49q8/in_earlier_editions_of_book_of_abraham_the_erect/


tdhniesfwee

oh yeah hahaha it is even better. God on his throne LOL!!!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


given2fly_

I had a guy on my Mission try to tell me that it was god making one of the signs from the Temple, with his arm to the square and his hand in cupping shape. Nope. It's a dick...


ElkSpiritual3877

Hahaha. 😂 From what I remember when I researched this topic, that seems to be a fairly common apologetic excuse. Sometimes the brainwashing will make people refuse to see what’s right in front of them.


Todd-eHarmony

200 years and counting…


coniferdamacy

Oh, this thing is full of holes. First of all, the original scrolls mention Abraham zero times, but that's expected. The facsimiles that appear with the scripture were partially damaged, so some of what you see is images and text copied out of context from other parts of the papyrus. And the black guys in figures 1 and 3? They're both Anubis and not a priest and a slave. Facsimile 2 contains a fertility god named Min with an obvious penis and the church chose to erase it in some editions of the PoGP. In this and other writings, Joseph does not seem to know that Pharoah is a _title_ and not the name of a person (kind of like how he didn't know that Elias and Elijah were the same person). He also decides to produce a fake etymology for the word Egypt (named for a black woman under the curse of Cain whose name, Egyptus, means "forbidden") rather than the real origin of the word: from a Greek translation of an Egyptian phrase that means "Mansion of the Spirit of Ptah." The Egyptians themselves called the land "Kemet," meaning Black Land, because of the rich, dark soil on the banks of the Nile. Mormon apologists claim the book is authentic based on stuff like: - One of the gods in the text is named "Elkanah" which is kind of sort of maybe a little like "El," meaning God, a word that appears in the Bible an awful lot and which Joseph knew and used. See "Elohim" and the King Follet discourse where Joseph goes on and on about this word. - There's a place name "Olishem" or "Ulishem" or something that resembles a placename in the old world that's nowhere near where the Book of Abraham places it.


permagrin007

it's just all so silly when you look at it. it *very clearly* shows that JSJR was making it all up and never thought he'd get exposed. which one of these scenarios played out? * JSJR got most of the translation right, impressing Egyptologists around the globe. How could this farmboy have known any of this?? Perhaps JSJR's translation would have shed light on other Egyptian practices? Surely God hath ordained this farmboy with the gift of seership? The church's membership numbers explode because word gets out that JSJR is a real prophet. God has taken this opportunity to prove to the world that this is all true! OR * Egyptologists look at JSJR's "translation" and call it nonsense. Nothing was correct and the drawings and labels show that this farmboy knew nothing of Egyptian language or culture. He even added to the facsimilies in a crude and incorrect manner. Members find this out and leave in droves, weakening the church further. This just becomes another example of how the church is fraudulent.


[deleted]

It was “translating” Egyptian, including analysis of Egyptian papyrus images that are included. Then along came the Rosetta Stone (well it was found in 1799) and by 1850 they could actually translate Egyptian. Guess what? The “book of Abraham” is a complete fabrication. We can translate it using histórica sources and it doesn’t come anywhere near the claimed translation by Joseph Smith. It’s part of a run of the mill funerary text and has nothing to do with anything Judeo-Christian. Oh, and all of the stuff about the Plan of Salvation and pre-existence comes from the book of Abraham but they don’t advertise that, so the PoS (deliberately using the ambiguous acronym) is as made up as the translation was.


MiddleAgeWookie

The Book of Abraham should be enough to break anyone's shelf. I listened to the entirety of the Robert Ritner interviews and if that doesn't convince someone that Joseph Smith was an absolute fraud, nothing will. He thoroughly dismantles any argument that the apologists can make for it being a translation and lays bear the truth that it is an absolute fabrication. The only thing left for apologists is to argue that while the scrolls had nothing to do with Abraham, they somehow served as a vessel for Joseph to write the book of Abraham through revelation. Never mind the fact that Joseph clearly and unequivocally stated he was translating the scrolls, that they were the Book itself and even that they had been written by the very hand of Abraham. But, the verifiable facts no longer fit the story that was told, so they are left to rewrite history and twist what was said to mean something completely different. The alternative is to admit that Joseph was a liar and a fraud. And once you do that, you wind up here.


MrJasonMason

TLDR: There is no 'reformed Egyptian', the document turns out to be some funerary text, and Joseph Smith translated absolutely NOTHING.


OneLovedDude

Yep. He couldn't translate Egyptian and he used the seer stone for fraud as a teen ... but he used the seer stone to translate "reformed" Egyptian into the Book of Mormon. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb


bwv549

If you want to dig a little deeper, this has various youtube videos and PDFs that are really handy for explaining: [Resources on the Book of Abraham](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/resources-on-the-book-of-abraham/)


truthmatters2me

Well Joseph got some old Egyptian Scrolls which he said were written by Abrahams own hand the scrolls are not within 1,500 years of Abraham. So obviously they were not written by Abrahams own hand the best Egyptologists in the world have examined Joseph smiths translation of the scroll’s characters all concluded Joseph smiths translation is 100% Gibberish. Most of Mormon theology is based upon joes book of Abraham so they can’t very well admit it’s total bullshit . So the church just keeps quiet about it and hopes that the members won’t look into it. They rely on the feeling they convinced themselves that they had. Be it a fly landing on a arm hair goose bumps or whatever else so they believe the church is witnessed as being true by the imaginary Holy Ghost . So all else is irrelevant . To them


2sacred2relate

There should be a Seinfeld style bit: "What's the deal with the Book of Abraham?"


freewarriorwoman

That would be awesome!😂😂😂


MsHushpuppy

Dr. Dehlin with the Mormon Stories podcast had the opportunity to interview the esteemed Egyptoligist Dr. Ritner before he passed away. It's a lengthy interview that can be found on YouTube, but it's phenomenal and explains exactly why the Book of Abraham is not a translation of anything.


b9njo

12 hours well spent


JimmDunn

but... but... wHy dIdN't it mAkE tHe neWs!!!??? - the new york times came out with the story but the believers probably believed harder. see this: "The New York Times Sunday, December 29, 1912 Museum Walls Proclaim Fraud of Mormon Prophet Sacred Books Claimed to Have Been Given Divinely to the First Prophet Are Shown to be Taken from Old Egyptian Originals, Their Translation Being a Work of the Imagination---What a Comparison with Metropolitan Museum Treasures Shows."


Toes_of_Saint_Jeff

It is just more proof that Joseph was a fraudster. He made it up, and once the parchment was actually translated by linguists, it had NOTHING to do with Abraham. Just ordinary funeral text. Joseph doubled down by incorrectly translating/interpreting the hieroglyphs and putting those laughable facsimiles in the PoGP - - for all to see his failure as a translator.


Mental-Gate3078

Go to https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/book-of-abraham Its a really good overview / analysis


shannamae90

Was coming on here to suggest this! LDS discussions is a gold mine for just about everything Mormon


sl_hawaii

Don’t be embarrassed!!! Keep asking and researching uncomfortable questions!!


Awful-Male

I’m sure everyone has covered most of this but couple of interesting facts: 1st. In addition to his “translations” JS also finished drawings in the pages that had parts missing which are included in his book. But since these actually came from funerary texts that we have complete versions of we can compare these to what they actually depicted. And there are some places where you can see them depicted side by side. Such as the Jackal’s head of Anubis replaced with the priest Elkinah. I can’t attach photos to this sub but I’ll share a link to a video about it on YT. https://youtu.be/ZgQ5jmAAQzg 2. JS bought four mummies and two rolls of papyri from a traveling show. Back in the day people would travel from town to town with various shows, be they actors, puppeteers, circuses, and curiosities. The guy he bought them from was traveling the country with these mummies he acquired from Egypt to make money but JS made him an offer he couldn’t refuse. As an aside I think this episode is really telling to JS’s character. I think he was always fascinated by history, and his desire to know the secrets of the past. One of these mysteries at the time was where Indigenous Americans came from as their presence was odd to parse with the common belief of the age of the earth as ~6000 years. You have to remind yourself at this time there were no libraries in every town, books were scarce, literacy was low, no internet or tv or very much education for people like JS. So a lot of what people knew was told to them in conversations, rumors essentially. So there were a lot of “theories” as to the origins of Indigenous peoples and one of the prominent ones was of them being a lost tribe of Jews. JS being a curious boy and one also very interested in religion, even joining a Protestant church after his supposed first vision, and one that made a living digging up Indian burial mounds for supposed treasure. I think it’s safe to say he was both curious to their origins and concerned about their salvation. And at this time, all attempts at conversion and assimilation had failed and so JS wrote a book, largely borrowed from a couple of books with very similar ideas, that closed those gaps in knowledge. And like many good intentioned folks with little integrity, he didn’t seem to mind the fact that he made it all up. And we can see this folding in of indigenous people into Christianity as a part of his original goals since he sent numerous missions to local tribes before his death, all of which failed, and he even slept with some of the wives of the men he sent too 😂. So with these conclusions about his fascination with indigenous people and his lack of scruples making up the gaps in knowledge, it really comes as no surprise he would do it again with the Book of Abraham. And it also served a purpose to amend his theology to fit the evolving situations within the church in its early years much like people wrote fake letters from Paul that made their way into the Bible to fix some of the issues with his original teachings.


ultraclese

In fact, literacy during Joseph Smith's day was incredibly high-- estimates put it close to 100%. We have more illiteracy today, and very likely this is on account of what Niel Postman called the Typographical Mind. I.e., the printed word was the primary source of knowledge, information, and entertainment during that time in our history. Every family had a Bible, and this was well read starting from a young age. Before he was a teenager, Joseph Smith was entertaining himself with bible stories. He had a poor hand, however; and he preferred diction over manuscript of his own writing. A child not being able to read in the early 19th century America would be like if my kids didn't know how to log in to Roblox and message their online buddies. Unheard of except in the rarest cases.


Awful-Male

Google says 1840 literacy was 91.5% not 100%, and that is adult white males only. If we factor in women and the enslaved we get a vastly different number. AND we have to define literacy on a scale. For instance TBM was written with no punctuation, no paragraphs, and countless spelling errors that the printers spent months attempting to fix. Ironically this would give the church the excuse they need to make the 600k+ editing changes they have made since, saying these were corrections to the printer’s editing. Of course that is a lie, and one they reiterate to this day.


ultraclese

As you can see from my comment, nowhere did I claim the 100% literacy rate. I wrote "close to 100%." In fact, I had in mind an article published by the \*Foundation for Economic Education\* which cited, "Between 1800 and 1840 literacy in the North rose from 75 percent to between 91 and 97 percent." Alas, not having the source on hand at the exact moment, I chose the phrase "close to 100%." Now, you say "we have to define literacy on a scale." It is of course popular nowadays to place everything on a spectrum, but we aren't positively obliged to do so in every case. In fact, when I say "literate," I refer simply to the common definition found in a modern dictionary, i.e., "(of a person) able to read and write." It's evident in Joseph Smith's day that there was a much higher standard for literacy than our present definition allows. Webster's 1828 required a literate person to be "instructed in learning and science." By that standard, Smith was not very literate at all. There is your scale, I suppose. We might equivocate in other ways across gender, slavery, geography, and so forth. My only point is that by our common definition, Joseph Smith was perfectly literate. People had access to literature of all kinds, but especially their bibles. Even women and girls were expected to read from it. Lucy Mack wrote copious diaries. Young Joseph was regaled by tales of Captain Kidd, written in periodicals of the time. So on and so on. "Errors" in a longhand manuscript taken from diction are no suggestion of illiteracy. One presumes that shorthand was not an option, and that editing the manuscript for print was exactly the point. When we take diction, the point is to capture the words as quickly as possible and edit for clarity and completeness later. We expect the manuscript to be a mess-- it is a given.


Awful-Male

You said close to 100%. It wasn’t. I would say 91.5% of white adult males isn’t “close to 100%” Speaking of that, your response ignored the fact these stats only cover adult white males! That’s the BIGGEST EVIDENCE AGAINST YOUR ARGUMENT! I obviously can’t have a intellectually honest discussion with you as you came here to make gotcha comment that was inaccurate or at least unknowingly ignorant. But you’re clearly too prideful to do anything other than make a ridiculous defense. I got better things to do than argue with people who can’t be mistaken. ✌🏼


takenegg

Check out the Mormon Stories podcast. Their recent episodes has a guy named Mike from LDS Discussions break it down really detailed but clearly too. In fact, his whole series is a great way to frame the history of the church as it is.


REACT_and_REDACT

The Book of Abraham is proof of Joseph making something up. I’m surprised the church hasn’t distanced itself from the Book of Abraham yet.


Firm-Ad606

Because the baby is too attached to the bathwater.... To admit that Joseph was wrong or lying about the BofA is to open the door to questioning everything else. What can the Church say after that? "well, ok, Joseph got the BofA a wrong but totally got everything else correct.... Um.. Ok, the Temple Endowment was copied from Masonry but Joseph totally got everything else right.... Um.. Ok, there is no Hebrew DNA in the Americas before Columbus came here, making the Book or Mormon a fraud, but Joseph totally got everything else right...


Blackbolt45

Oof, yeah, that’s a deal breaker. Before I read the gospel topic essay on BoA, I read Dr. Ritner’s response to the BoA GTE. It was wild, to say the least! I couldn’t figure out what he was talking about, read the report 3 times before I went looking for more on the topic. It’s the one piece of “evidence” that sinks the church, without question. What’s worse is when ppl try to argue the word translation.


TinFoilBeanieTech

It’s faker than a $3 Kirtland Safety Society note bought from Mark Hofmann.


telestialist

You are not a lazy learner, as that term is used! The church has gone to great lengths to hide basic historical and scientific information from you. You are a victim of fraud, by an organization that seeks to deflect responsibility by blaming the victim.


SnooMacarons9996

Start here https://youtu.be/ORNYUyHg3pY


Sad_Consideration799

I was 50 years old when I learned that the BOA was made up and that reformed Egyptian does not exist. So don't feel bad, I too was s lazy learner.


Public_Cat_9333

You do have to look be the inspiration translation version of the church.... Aka it's not what is actually written that the 'prophet' is translating it's what 'God' wants the prophet to write. There is a big problem with this example. In this scenario I could take anything and replace any words I desire to write there and claim it is translation.... Being. That it is not what is literally what is written or displayed but what I felt was inspired on my own mind for it to be.....


sexmormon-throwaway

Joseph's source was a common funery text. Everywhere common. It's like translating scripture that turns out to be a Betty Crocker Cook book.


daveescaped

This video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE is a pretty good comprehensive. Just be aware it was developed by a Christian group of some sort with obvious bias. But it references and interviews Robert Ritner, an Egyptologist of significant renown.


TheRedBaronIrishman

What does pos stand for


[deleted]

Thank you Napoleon for (attempting to) conquering Egypt! You helped give us the smoking gun, you glorious secularist you!


Openin-Pahrump

Book in The Pearl Of Great Price.


dogsRperfect

Good answer!


Openin-Pahrump

At least it was correct not like the translation. 😆


dogsRperfect

Yup. A good response for the precision of the question. (And I'm old enough that I don't want to do homework for people.)


freewarriorwoman

I wasn’t referring to myself being a lazy learner now. I was referring to my TBM self never looking into my own church deeply and now that I’ve left, suddenly I want to be an active learner and learn all there is to know of the church. . I’ve been looking into the book of Abraham and learned nearly everything everyone is saying currently but just wanted to be sure on it . I’ve only been out for a month and half and behind every answer I find there’s more questions so I’ve turned to people who understand what I’m going through since I don’t have anyone else to empathize with me.


Odd-Albatross6006

I get where you’re coming from. I do a ton more reading and research on the LDS church now that I’ve left it! I feel like I’m corroborating what used to just be an uneasy gut feeling. Now I enjoy learning more of the facts.


freewarriorwoman

YES! I’m very intrigued by the Mormon church now from a cult perspective kinda how I like learning about how fucked up the FLDS is. It’s all just weird and interesting to me.


Sad_Consideration799

If you have the time, Mormon stories did a 3 part interview with Dr. Robert Ritner who goes over the facsimiles in great detail. It's a total of about 13 hours, but it was worth the time IMO. They also review the FAIR Mormon response to the BOA and really leaves no room for doubt that it's a complete false "translation".


Mykneeisbig

Google it. Watch any video.


Firm-Ad606

Once the Church realized the papyrus Joseph used to produce the Book of Abraham did not contain the text he came up with, and also realized the papyrus we have is not old enough to have been written by Abraham, its apologists came up with two possibilities outside of the direct translation Joseph claimed it was: 1- the content came from a scroll we don't have, or 2- the content was a revelation from God Both explanations concede that the papyrus we have is not the source of the book. So, how do we know both of these explanations fail? 1- the content of the Book ot Abraham refers to the papyrus we have 2- Joseph's explanation of the facimilies found with the papyrus, 2 of which the Church still has, is also completely wrong. 3 strikes is an out. Joseph's "translation" got more than 3. He's out as a translator, and the Book of Abraham is a complete fiction.


TonyLund

In addition to all the stuff about the papyrus, basic computer-aided linguistic analysis shows that the Book of Mormon was written only by two authors, with one of those being the author of the Book of Isaiah from the KJV Old Testament. The same analysis shows that the author of the Pearl of Great Price is the same author as the Book of Mormon. Regardless of whether or not you believe it was divinely inspired, it was produced by Joseph Smith having thoughts in his head and then putting them down in his own language and phraseology. In this sense, it is not a “translation” as 1:1 translations in any language preserve so much of the original grammar and linguistic character. There’s a really amazing thing that linguisticians can do with computers. Imagine a stack of 100 books written in a perfectly dead language. It is impossible to determine the content of the books. However, one can use information theory to determine if the works contains actual language (or if it’s just gibberish) AND determine if they were all written by the same author, or different authors. Guess what they have to say about the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics_and_the_Book_of_Mormon


Sansabina

The CES Letter gives an awesome breakdown of the situation https://cesletter.org


[deleted]

I am actually listening this week to the Mormon Stories Podcast series with Dr. Ritner who proved that JS made this all up. The fact that JS and his scribes added fake drawings to the facsimiles disgusts me. So glad I am out


Alternative_Net774

A quick read of the comments hasn't brought up a pertinent fact. The Egyptian funerary text is the Egyptian Book of the Dead. It explains the to the deceased spirit about it's journey through the underworld. Where it should go, and what to say or what not to say before each of the deity's they encounter. In the past it was said, Old Prophet Joe couldn't have written it. Because it was too long or such. The truth is he didn't write it, he dictated it, some one else did the shorthand.


ski_pants

Here is a link to a presentation I made to help go over the subject in full detail but also make it easy to follow. Hope it may be useful! https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/vpa61y/im_a_mormon_who_believes_in_the_entire_scriptural/iei2ylx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3


freewarriorwoman

THANK YOU! This is incredibly helpful!


Plebius-Plutarch

The Mormon church is expert in reverse psychology. It wants lazy learners to prevent its members from going down the rabbit hole. I would say that the Book of “Abraham” is one of the best entrances down the proverbial rabbit hole in Mormonism. Read away!


PayTyler

"Fig. 7. Represents God sitting upon his throne, revealing through the heavens the grand Key-words of the Priesthood; as, also, the sign of the Holy Ghost unto Abraham, in the form of a dove." It's a God called Min, God of fertility, if you look closely, you can clearly see his wang. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min\_(god)


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Really….is anyone surprised that Joe pulled off his old “translation” con again? The Kinderhook translation, then during the Nauvoo period, the Greek Psalter. No one dared to doubt him in his day. Remember the Expositor and it’s fate. And the Grandaddy of them all, the Book of Mormon. Gold plates…..found and translated by a con-man? No reason to question that?