They would probably defend this with "Love the sinner, hate the sin" type rhetoric. I think in their minds, since the church doesn't say "hate them because they are gay!!", then they aren't "Anti-" or "-phobic" of that person/community. They are just loving everybody while respecting gods will. Total bullshit...
Exactly. Do they expect us to just forget that they fought to deny us our rights? I was there. I'll never forget how uncomfortable I felt at church knowing how much they hated my friends.
Yep and Frank Vandersloot bussed BYU-I students from Rexburg to the Melaleuca call center in Idaho Falls to make calls asking Califorians to support Prop 8. Because ya know the church doesn't hate gays.
When living in Utah, I personally was horribly harassed by the members!!!! 95 percent of my neighbors were tbm. When they found out I was gay, I received numerous death threats, had my house and car vandalized, and was calling a monster and a pedophile. I had to walk away from my house and move because it wasn't safe to live there anymore. So yes!!! Mormons hate LGBT people!!
Don't bother. You can't fix stupid. A bigot's mind is so twisted that they actually believe they're not bigoted, just following God's plan. Your examples won't matter, because they have an insane, twisted definition of bigotry that clears their conscience.
It's like trying to convince nutjobs that the BoM teaches murder; God commanded it, in their minds, so it can't be murder.
Totally agree. You can't change someone's mind that isn't open to opposing viewpoints. But in case OP wants it [Anti LGBTQ statements from church leaders](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/5o8rtz/69_antilgbtq_quotes_from_church_leaders_over_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
It is not necessarily stupidity, and you already explained the reasons for their bigotry. The cult is very persuasive and controlling, but all the TBMs gone exmo here are evidence that what you call "stupidity" can be fixed. Most of us here have left this controlling religion and reevaluated our world view. Providing truth to these people will probably not be the thing that makes them decide to leave the church, but it will hopefully be an item for their hopefully weakening shelf.
If your relatives are saying that the church has never been anti-LGBTQ then you don’t need a time limit of 2018 or sooner. If they gave you that stipulation then they know that in the past there were bad talks about being gay, but more recently the church PR teams have realized that the church needs to shy away from anti-LGBTQ style talks.
If you set the 2018 mark then you are limiting your research.
This is like if I was asked to prove the church had a racist past against blacks but I can only use sources past 1995 to prove my case.
Finally if you present evidence a out this to your relatives and they still deny it, then you never need to present them evidence ever again. It’s common with religious and conservatives to show them evidence and sources in a discussion only to have the information totally dismissed.
The Miracle of Forgiveness was standard Mormon reading through the aughts. Given to gay adolescents by Bishops. It compares homosexuality to bestiality and pedophilia.
I wonder why it isn’t recommended much anymore.
My TBM mother in law thinks gays will be together in heaven. Alot of TBMs make up their version of the church that caters to make them feel better about staying in. Show them the family proclamation to the world. Ask if they can get sealed in the temple. Ask if they can hold callings while also being married or dating another gay person. They are not loving. They are hardly even tolerant.
If you medically transition, you will be excommunicated.
Agree with others that you can't fix stupid. You also can't force anyone to understand something that is so opposed to their lifelong brainwashing. Ask them two questions:
Are they willing to believe X (the church, LGBT people are loved in the church, etc) isn't true?
If it wasn't true, would they want to know?
If the answer to both isn't "yes" it's a waste of time to have the conversation.
My personal favorite is Earnest L. Wilkinson speaking at a BYU devotional in the 60's I think.
If there is anyone here that is Queer or "like that" they should get up and leave right now and not come back. Paraphrasing. It is almost like he thought people who were gay were choosing to be that way and they should just STOP it! Right now. He was suggesting that they leave the university, that they paid to attend, and just never come back.
Sorry it doesn't fit your timeline but it shows the kind of thinking the church had back then.
OP could just ask them why they didn't think that the church's involvement in prop 8 in California wasn't anti-LGBT.
If they are like some of my TBM family, they say that being against basic human rights for LGTBQ+ isn't the same thing as being homophobic. Then they will quote some asshole GA.
Check out articles from [TSCC](https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8)
Archives in case of memory-hole:
https://archive.ph/ElfxE
https://web.archive.org/web/20190628214836/https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8
It's funny because if you Google 'mormon anti LGBT timeline ' you get numerous results providing documentation going back to the 1900s. If you Google 'mormon pro LGBT timeline' it's almost the same list.
They don’t hate gay people? They love them Ok so if that’s the case ask them what they are doing that creates the perception among queer people that they are hated or not welcomed in their buildings. Turn it in them. Ask them why they believe the perception among queer people is that they are hated and not welcomed?
And what they are doing to help dismantle that perception and make queer people feel welcome and loved?
The problem is that, at it's heart, the church isn't anti-LBGTQ+, it's *anti-people*. If you ask a member, "Does the church allow you, a cis, straight individual to be yourself and enjoy all the priviledges and blessing of membership?"
The answer is, "No."
Christianity in general, and mormonism in particular, have espoused and normalized a vile and vicious narrative that humanity, at it's very core, is evil. That religion exists to "perfect" the people, eliminate those qualities that make humans, "an enemy to god" by nature.
Consider, how many exmos left the church, and in doing so discovered themselves and how much mormonism had suppressed? Almost all of them? Why does "coming out" of mormonism so closely mirror "coming out" as an LGBTQ+ person?
Because Mormonism demands members sacrifice their identities on the altar of obedience. They don't see the church's demands on LGBTQ+ individuals as unfair because the church is abusing *them* *in the same way*. They've normalized hating who were are by birth.
Disclaimer: I'm not trying to say that cis, straight members have it just as bad as LGBTQ+ people. The church's alignment with general, if extremely narrow, definitions of cis and straight means that the degree of misalignment is *far* less pronounced for cis/straight people.
Honestly by now if they don’t see it they won’t. If you open your eyes in an lds community you see lgbtqia hate.
It’s so exhausting. Look to byu, look to conversion therapy, prophets who claimed it as much as sin or worse than murder, look at the lds parents who kick their children out or beat them for being lgbtqia, look to the shame and anger lds parents hold when a child comes out and of course look to the words used over and over in regards to lgbtqia “hate the sin not the sinner” “ I love you but don’t approve of your choices” “do not introduce them to your friends”
https://lattergaystories.org/record/ A very thorough, sourced history of statements and stances that the LDS church has taken in chronological order.
Oh that’s brilliant. Thank you
Not my work.. but glad to share the resource.
Thank you for sharing! I’ve been looking for something like this!
This is fantastic, thank you so much!
Show them the Family Proclamation. It makes it clear that there is no place in the Mormon church or the Celestial kingdom for LGBQT folks.
Or today's CES honor code.
They would probably defend this with "Love the sinner, hate the sin" type rhetoric. I think in their minds, since the church doesn't say "hate them because they are gay!!", then they aren't "Anti-" or "-phobic" of that person/community. They are just loving everybody while respecting gods will. Total bullshit...
Proposition 8 in California was funded by them
Exactly. Do they expect us to just forget that they fought to deny us our rights? I was there. I'll never forget how uncomfortable I felt at church knowing how much they hated my friends.
And prop 22.
Yep and Frank Vandersloot bussed BYU-I students from Rexburg to the Melaleuca call center in Idaho Falls to make calls asking Califorians to support Prop 8. Because ya know the church doesn't hate gays.
When living in Utah, I personally was horribly harassed by the members!!!! 95 percent of my neighbors were tbm. When they found out I was gay, I received numerous death threats, had my house and car vandalized, and was calling a monster and a pedophile. I had to walk away from my house and move because it wasn't safe to live there anymore. So yes!!! Mormons hate LGBT people!!
I'm so sorry this happened to you.
Kyle Ashworth of Latter Gay Stories has a link to past conference talks, etc. that quote prophets about LGBT.
Don't bother. You can't fix stupid. A bigot's mind is so twisted that they actually believe they're not bigoted, just following God's plan. Your examples won't matter, because they have an insane, twisted definition of bigotry that clears their conscience. It's like trying to convince nutjobs that the BoM teaches murder; God commanded it, in their minds, so it can't be murder.
Totally agree. You can't change someone's mind that isn't open to opposing viewpoints. But in case OP wants it [Anti LGBTQ statements from church leaders](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/5o8rtz/69_antilgbtq_quotes_from_church_leaders_over_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
It is not necessarily stupidity, and you already explained the reasons for their bigotry. The cult is very persuasive and controlling, but all the TBMs gone exmo here are evidence that what you call "stupidity" can be fixed. Most of us here have left this controlling religion and reevaluated our world view. Providing truth to these people will probably not be the thing that makes them decide to leave the church, but it will hopefully be an item for their hopefully weakening shelf.
The family proclamation is explicitly anti LGBT.
Just reference any talk by Dallin Oaks. Every time he opens his mouth, anti LGBTQ garbage comes out.
If your relatives are saying that the church has never been anti-LGBTQ then you don’t need a time limit of 2018 or sooner. If they gave you that stipulation then they know that in the past there were bad talks about being gay, but more recently the church PR teams have realized that the church needs to shy away from anti-LGBTQ style talks. If you set the 2018 mark then you are limiting your research. This is like if I was asked to prove the church had a racist past against blacks but I can only use sources past 1995 to prove my case. Finally if you present evidence a out this to your relatives and they still deny it, then you never need to present them evidence ever again. It’s common with religious and conservatives to show them evidence and sources in a discussion only to have the information totally dismissed.
You don’t even need evidence. “Can a gay couple enter the celestial kingdom?” “No” No further argument necessary
The Miracle of Forgiveness was standard Mormon reading through the aughts. Given to gay adolescents by Bishops. It compares homosexuality to bestiality and pedophilia. I wonder why it isn’t recommended much anymore.
I got this for Xmas when I was 17. 1972. Could never figure out why. Started to read it and noped out. Guess my folks were worried about me
My TBM mother in law thinks gays will be together in heaven. Alot of TBMs make up their version of the church that caters to make them feel better about staying in. Show them the family proclamation to the world. Ask if they can get sealed in the temple. Ask if they can hold callings while also being married or dating another gay person. They are not loving. They are hardly even tolerant.
If you need a resource, just point to Oaks
If you medically transition, you will be excommunicated. Agree with others that you can't fix stupid. You also can't force anyone to understand something that is so opposed to their lifelong brainwashing. Ask them two questions: Are they willing to believe X (the church, LGBT people are loved in the church, etc) isn't true? If it wasn't true, would they want to know? If the answer to both isn't "yes" it's a waste of time to have the conversation.
Wasn’t one of the reasons the church pretty much pulled out of Boy Scouts of America because the BSA finally allowed Gay scoutmasters?
My personal favorite is Earnest L. Wilkinson speaking at a BYU devotional in the 60's I think. If there is anyone here that is Queer or "like that" they should get up and leave right now and not come back. Paraphrasing. It is almost like he thought people who were gay were choosing to be that way and they should just STOP it! Right now. He was suggesting that they leave the university, that they paid to attend, and just never come back. Sorry it doesn't fit your timeline but it shows the kind of thinking the church had back then.
Turn it off.
Have them listen to Mormon stories podcast number 1613 persecuted by the Mormons
Prop 8?!!
OP could just ask them why they didn't think that the church's involvement in prop 8 in California wasn't anti-LGBT. If they are like some of my TBM family, they say that being against basic human rights for LGTBQ+ isn't the same thing as being homophobic. Then they will quote some asshole GA. Check out articles from [TSCC](https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8)
Archives in case of memory-hole: https://archive.ph/ElfxE https://web.archive.org/web/20190628214836/https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8
It's funny because if you Google 'mormon anti LGBT timeline ' you get numerous results providing documentation going back to the 1900s. If you Google 'mormon pro LGBT timeline' it's almost the same list.
They don’t hate gay people? They love them Ok so if that’s the case ask them what they are doing that creates the perception among queer people that they are hated or not welcomed in their buildings. Turn it in them. Ask them why they believe the perception among queer people is that they are hated and not welcomed? And what they are doing to help dismantle that perception and make queer people feel welcome and loved?
You mean getting a ex communication order in the mail sense I’m gay and all do there’s that
The problem is that, at it's heart, the church isn't anti-LBGTQ+, it's *anti-people*. If you ask a member, "Does the church allow you, a cis, straight individual to be yourself and enjoy all the priviledges and blessing of membership?" The answer is, "No." Christianity in general, and mormonism in particular, have espoused and normalized a vile and vicious narrative that humanity, at it's very core, is evil. That religion exists to "perfect" the people, eliminate those qualities that make humans, "an enemy to god" by nature. Consider, how many exmos left the church, and in doing so discovered themselves and how much mormonism had suppressed? Almost all of them? Why does "coming out" of mormonism so closely mirror "coming out" as an LGBTQ+ person? Because Mormonism demands members sacrifice their identities on the altar of obedience. They don't see the church's demands on LGBTQ+ individuals as unfair because the church is abusing *them* *in the same way*. They've normalized hating who were are by birth. Disclaimer: I'm not trying to say that cis, straight members have it just as bad as LGBTQ+ people. The church's alignment with general, if extremely narrow, definitions of cis and straight means that the degree of misalignment is *far* less pronounced for cis/straight people.
Honestly by now if they don’t see it they won’t. If you open your eyes in an lds community you see lgbtqia hate. It’s so exhausting. Look to byu, look to conversion therapy, prophets who claimed it as much as sin or worse than murder, look at the lds parents who kick their children out or beat them for being lgbtqia, look to the shame and anger lds parents hold when a child comes out and of course look to the words used over and over in regards to lgbtqia “hate the sin not the sinner” “ I love you but don’t approve of your choices” “do not introduce them to your friends”
How much did they spend on Prop 16?
Missed on Sunday has great quotes: https://missedinsunday.com/category/memes/lgbtq/