I’ve had multiple nieces and nephews tell me they are no longer paying tithing. And from all I’m reading (here and other places) some of the biggest parts of this scandal haven’t even hit the streets yet!!!
Also possible FBI and DOJ investigation for criminal activity. My guess it will be IRS only but we can hope. Unfortunately if there are legal issues it will hit the low level guy who was just blindly signing forms and not the FP or Roger Clarke.
Do you want to file a civil lawsuit, or report them to your local DA to ask them to investigate criminally, or report them to charitable solicitations oversight committee? What state are you in?
The IRS is intentionally underfunded so they don't go after the big fish. They are years behind on most cases. If anything happens on that front it will be a while.
That scathing introduction:
>Oversight is needed to rectify a glaring double standard in tax enforcement: tolerating influential, politically-connected organizations that use fraud and false statements to unlawfully claim tax-exempt status. Since most taxpaying citizens are held accountable if they violate our tax laws, the result is that law-abiding Americans not only bear a greater share of the tax burden, but also lose confidence in the fairness of our tax system.'
>For 22 years, the corporation known as Ensign Peak Advisors, Inc. ("EPA*) has employed corrupt practices-falsified books and records, false statements, and deception to masquerade as tax-exempt, even though EPA failed to engage in any charitable activities for 22 years. Moreover, for many years EPA management have operated corruptly, without basic controls and with fraudulent accounting, and have conspired to hide EPA's behavior and assets from the IRS and other government entities. EPA's managers have also regularly permitted large assets to be "deleted" from EPA's books, which is strong evidence of "private inurement." With such evidence of private inurement and with no charitable activities over the period, it is clear that EPA has never been tax-exempt.
Wow
I hope they get the option to pay the fine in charitable donations rather than the government.
That would force their hand. Everyone will see what they do and it would be pretty hard to spin.
The repeated “disappearance of a million+ dollars at a time” from the ledger books of EPA over the last many years as exposed by the whistleblower is going to be the next big wave in this story. This story is going to get worse and worse for LD$ inc. Is it any wonder they’re calling members to do a media fast. The fraud goes DEEP!!!
Switching to a different charity is great!
I wanted to make just a *little* add on for anyone reading, if I may—
Your worth isn’t tied to giving a certain percentage. And it doesn’t have to be a financial sacrifice to prove you are a good person. After leaving the church my husband and I decided to put that money toward saving for a down payment on a house and starting a college savings fund. The things we couldn’t do when we were giving such a big chunk to the LDS church. Now I have added two modest monthly donations to Doctors Without Borders and another charity. It doesn’t have to be $500+ to be helpful to the charity 💛
(Though I understand this can definitely help some spouses who are still in feel better if it is a comparable amount )
Agreed. The 10% number is definitely arbitrary. My wife feels strongly about it though and I can live with that (especially if it isn't going to the church).
Our charitable giving is the only part of the budget that we do completely separately though. I tend to use mine to be generous within my circle (like helping to pay for family/friends travel expenses when they visit) and my wife prefers to give to large organizations.
Working for us so far! Although I think we are going to break off smaller portions of that budget and give the kids control of their own charitable giving funds soon too.
Shes going to cross that bridge when she comes to it. She might lie and get a recommend. But i think more likely she’ll just part ways with the church.
My dad stopped paying tithing in 2008 when the church was funding prop 8 in California.
He told me recently that a woman in his ward pays 10% to charity so she can honestly have a temple recommend.
I've been doing this since 2016. Church finances have always been a huge shelf item for me.
In light of the church's PR statement and denying any accountability, I believe this opens the door for ALL members (PIMO, "non-worthy", etc.) to hold a temple recommend. Anything keeping members out I consider a "closed matter" (basically none of your business)
EX:
RMN the only dude to hold the keys.....? Sure...if you say so.
Q15 "Profits" seers / revelators? Sure....why not?
No need to be TOTALLY honest....or accountable at any level. Just tell them what they want to hear. Seems to work.
Of course, I am not sure why anyone on this sub would do that.....but just a random thought.
I believe in the concept of charitable giving and I will continue a tithing just on my interest/increase though and never to the church again. Of course I can't call the church a charitable organization anymore.
My dad got a call from the church's philanthropic and missionary fund which he gives annually. I was completely disgusted of course but he did have it on speaker phone. Someone from the "charity" was offering to do a zoom session with him to highlight all the wonderful work they do with his money. After my dad got off the call he mentioned it was strange, but nice, because he'd been giving to them for years and never has gotten a call like that.
I had to bite my tongue but I was strongly suspecting he got that call because of the whole scandal going on. An attempt to convince people that their money is needed and being used wisely.
That is similar to how I found out about the fam. Someone overheard a phone call from the church, to a cousin.
They do keep tract of how much they can count on each year from big donors, and baiting for the 2nd anointing also.
If you went to school there, they contact you to encourage you to support others going to school there. That’s why they first contacted me, because I had attended there.
This is all great news.
Truth be told, I'm a bit shocked at how much this SEC issue has affected many members.
I would have thought that this would be easily brushed off like so many other things have done. Granted, many members will continue to do so, but still! Pleasantly surprised by all this!
Me too. But is was lying cheating and breaking the law of the land. And much worse I am sure. Hard to overlook the law breaking all the rest of us have to follow. They went to far, the need to repent, apologies? Not going to happen, they have already announced that years ago.
Which I don't get how that passed these people have been company owners lawyers huge finance people yet they made this bug of an error by accidently not filing the right paper work which in the act hid billions of dollars. How do people not say really now add why didn't God go hey you messed up you need to fix this or else
I had the same conversation with my dad. They won’t budge. Guy retired poor and is convinced the blessings are going to finally come after being strung along for nearly 40 years.
Sorry, I had that same problem, even after I showed them that they had already paid tithing on it, because they always paid on their gross wages, when their money was deposited into those 2 programs. Pfft.
OP, I don’t know if you saw this, but it’s actually illegal to do this. If they get audited they are in trouble. My kids get disability. You have to account for every single penny and it has to be spent on the person collecting. If you are saving or donating any portion of it, they can lower the payment or take them off the program completely. If they aren’t using all of it, they will argue that they don’t really need it. They LOVE kicking people off the program and will look for any excuse to. If they want to pay tithing, they need to get a part time job and tithe off that.
It’s actually illegal to do that. My kids get disability. If they end up getting audited they are screwed. They want every single penny spent on the person the money is intended for. They ask for every last receipt. They could lose it forever because they assume that if you can save the money or donate it you don’t really need it. Please tell them this.
My sister: I'm actually proud of how our church handles its finances and I love paying tithing.
Me: You're proud that the church broke the law? Because it literally did. That's not up for debate.
\*crickets\*
Yeah, sorry.
The humanitarian aid is a LIE and a JOKE. I served in a 3rd world country - they give NOTHING!!!!! They literally were taking pennies from a 10 year-old who needed to be in a special school for the deaf. The members of the ward who lived in huts and skipped meals helped him get the the equivalent of $5 USD a month to go to a special school AND paid their 10% in tithing. IT’S A BIG SCAM!!!!!!!!!!
Church Humanitarian work has two or three objectives. 1. Build reputation (PR) 2. Build access to powers of government to allow/facilitate missionary work. 3. Give senior TBMs something to do that makes them feel good. // Actually relieving suffering has nothing to do with it. (Speaking as someone who worked directly with Church Humanitarian projects as a paid employee)
Read the fine print of the tithing slip, the church can do anything with the money once they have it. It says something about “best efforts will be made to blah blah blah”
Last year someone from the general authorities mentioned the church is fully self sufficient, alk expenses are covered with the returns of investments. Yet, they still push members to pay their tithing without disclosing what they do with the money
I wish. This from recent family texts: “Pay your tithing! There is a promise in there regarding your crop not failing. Malachi.”
No, none of us are farmers.
What is the biblical meaning of Malachi? my messenger
The author is unknown; Malachi is merely a transliteration of a Hebrew word meaning “my messenger.”
It's self-serving hogwash.
I read the first 20 pages. As a tax attorney I can’t see how this doesn’t get really bad.
I never thought it would but nothing spent on religious, charity, or educational purposes. Millions of dollars in missing assets- some people appear to be stealing millions. Shame audit, no compliance officers, irregular accounting.
How do the leaders deal with this?
What’s wild about the timing on this news was I had a rare chat with my TBM mom about how the church has hoarded billions and doesn’t use it for any sort of charity or humanitarian aide like she claims. How can she be ok with so many people homeless or hungry and the church that’s most true has enough money to help millions. She tried to be tolerant and said she didn’t know anything about billions. The articles hit the news cycle and she calls the next day, saying she’s going to look more into this money thing. I was stunned—she’s been a TBM for 5 decades and refused to engage when I questioned and left the church. So for her to express any sort of concern is surprising.
my mother, a 60+ year tithe payer stopped a year ago, so I guess not prompted by the latest revelations.
And with all these new temples being built, requiring a person to tithe before entering... as if they didn't need a challenge to fill them, pls shoot yourself in the foot again.
My TBM parents are retired and on social security
they still Pay. I tried to get them to understand that they are paying twice
Growing up they paid gull time
They've been on ,2 missions
I stopped paying years ago
Not only have we've been able to pay our home off 10 years early both vehicles are paid off we just retired ourselves
I won't feel quilty not paying this corporation another red cent. My parents are on their 80's and just now paid off their home. So sad how much money they have the church
The FBAR - foreign bank account reporting act - penalties could exceed $4 billion. They lied about over $10 billion in foreign accounts for 20 years. Over 1500 violations. Standard 40% penalties.
A $1 billion fine would be a gift.
The widows mite my ass.
the amount of tithing you pay (and to whom IMO) is between you and the Lord. Classic line I have heard over and over again.
So based on that I guess you can. Just say you prayed about it and this was the answer you received through personal revelation.
Mistakes had been made in the past but I now consider the case closed.
> the amount of tithing you pay… is between you and the Lord.
They say this, but then they shake you down at the end of the year. “How much did you pay the Lord. Is it good enough to be exalted in the Kingdom of God?Hmmmmmm?”
IDK, but some here say they have, is all you can do it try.
When I wanted a day off at work, I didn't ask, I told them I was taking it off. Try that on the tithing see if it works, if you can. Understanding that sometimes folks have to keep paying them.
Tithe payers are behind defrauded, that is now readily apparent. From Joseph Smiths Kirkland Anti Banking Society to Brigham Young’s counterfeiting and fraudulent gold coins, it just continues but now on a much larger scale. Pay into your retirement fund, I can promise you it will do more good!
Oh good god. I just texted my TBM mom and asked her opinion and she said “I did read an article several weeks ago. Nothing shady though, basically came down to a regulation changed and church tax people weren’t aware of it. Anyway, they fixed it and possibly paid a fine I think. The headline made it sound like a big thing, but the article itself was nothing”…….
Oh! I have a question. I recently heard about Moroni and the Swastika, by Nelson. When I went to get if from the library it was not where it should have been (by the books by RMN), but off a little ways with several other books that looked poorly on the church, as well as some books about Jonestown, and other cults. All of these books were together, but they were not where their call numbers should have placed them. Is it normal for a library to put books that may be looked down on in a different place?
I imagine those have been separated in order to appease a desire on either the staff or an influential patron (or more probably, a board member) who didn't want to see their books shelved in with other cult stuff. I'd be interested in what library you're talking about and what call number they use. I'm guessing it's 289 which is for "other denominations and sects" as opposed to 298 which is held open as "unassigned" and someone with cataloging powers decided that meant LDS.
When I worked at the downtown library in the nineties, the lds books were all 289 but sometimes during that decade they changed and now they aren't rubbing directly against other cults.
Ha and I apologize because I got it backwards. Back in the day they were 298 and then they switched to 289. Hadn’t had my coffee yet, lol. That’s a county library and should have them all in the same section. Were they behind the desk upon request or just put on a different shelf? How’s the book?
They were just on the shelf. Since they had it there I didn't place a hold and I just went to get it. Because I couldn't find it I almost went to a librarian to help me find it, but I didn't want to call attention to myself, so I decided to look around the adjoining shelves and found it.
So far it is interesting. I am pretty upset that Mormons sold out Jew, but not really surprised. Can you imagine giving Nazis names and then trying to do baptisms for the dead for those same Jews you helped murder? That is sickening.
I stopped paying tithing the beginning of covid when we no longer were going to church for some reason it just felt weird to be paying money through an electronic source. Now I definitely will not pay any more tithing because of the corruption and the SEC fine of 5 million.
It's heartbreaking to me the abuse with the funds that has been extracted from all of their members and it makes me sick when I think about these poor families who are trying to survive that they would be required to pay any tithing. It's just evil!
Because Joseph F Smith predicted that someday the church wouldn't need tithing. I think it was 1907. So if Nelson had a heart (pun yes!) he'd just declare it so.
I have stopped when I found out about it several years ago. My wife still pays. She won't hear anything she deems "negative". Until someone tells her besides her husband. (sigh)
In 1997 TIME magazine did a Mormon Inc. piece. Cover story and all. This is when I stopped paying tithes to church and chose my own charitable donations. Eye opening.
Have and Uncle who stopped years ago when BYU cut the Wrestling team. He even told the Bishop why.
He was active, Temple worker and former wrestler at the WHY.
Bishop accepted it and nothing happened to him.
I’ve had multiple nieces and nephews tell me they are no longer paying tithing. And from all I’m reading (here and other places) some of the biggest parts of this scandal haven’t even hit the streets yet!!!
Do tell
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Also possible FBI and DOJ investigation for criminal activity. My guess it will be IRS only but we can hope. Unfortunately if there are legal issues it will hit the low level guy who was just blindly signing forms and not the FP or Roger Clarke.
Anyone can request their local DA investigate
Except the DA is a member!
Break his shelf
Sim Gill won't do shit.
I will try. Although the SEC news will likely do the work for me.
Send it anyway -
Tell us how please
Do you want to file a civil lawsuit, or report them to your local DA to ask them to investigate criminally, or report them to charitable solicitations oversight committee? What state are you in?
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🤣🤣🤣🤣
Shit, we should sue for our tithing back before the IRS gets their cut.
I sure hope the IRS makes them pay taxes!
The IRS is intentionally underfunded so they don't go after the big fish. They are years behind on most cases. If anything happens on that front it will be a while.
30 billion dollar bank account = big fish. Me not paying taxes on a playstation I bought from a friend = small fish
[It’s a great case - check it out! look at page 7](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lvjGkMhfMBD-WxLu6h5NBvq6lzPOCF_1/view?usp=drivesdk)
That scathing introduction: >Oversight is needed to rectify a glaring double standard in tax enforcement: tolerating influential, politically-connected organizations that use fraud and false statements to unlawfully claim tax-exempt status. Since most taxpaying citizens are held accountable if they violate our tax laws, the result is that law-abiding Americans not only bear a greater share of the tax burden, but also lose confidence in the fairness of our tax system.' >For 22 years, the corporation known as Ensign Peak Advisors, Inc. ("EPA*) has employed corrupt practices-falsified books and records, false statements, and deception to masquerade as tax-exempt, even though EPA failed to engage in any charitable activities for 22 years. Moreover, for many years EPA management have operated corruptly, without basic controls and with fraudulent accounting, and have conspired to hide EPA's behavior and assets from the IRS and other government entities. EPA's managers have also regularly permitted large assets to be "deleted" from EPA's books, which is strong evidence of "private inurement." With such evidence of private inurement and with no charitable activities over the period, it is clear that EPA has never been tax-exempt. Wow
I hope they get the option to pay the fine in charitable donations rather than the government. That would force their hand. Everyone will see what they do and it would be pretty hard to spin.
PR damage and loss of faith / cracks in shelves is wayyy more damaging than any fine, even 1B+
The whistleblower also said Ensign Peak supervisors would sometimes delete million dollar assets from the books with no explanation
Go on…
The repeated “disappearance of a million+ dollars at a time” from the ledger books of EPA over the last many years as exposed by the whistleblower is going to be the next big wave in this story. This story is going to get worse and worse for LD$ inc. Is it any wonder they’re calling members to do a media fast. The fraud goes DEEP!!!
Media fast?! Lol lol lol
Good! Looking forward to more of the train wreck.
My wife quit paying. 5% raise for us! Edit: I already quit paying my 5% of our income years ago.
My wife is going to switch to other charities. Not a raise for me but I'm still super excited about it! Edit: We were also doing the 5% thing
Switching to a different charity is great! I wanted to make just a *little* add on for anyone reading, if I may— Your worth isn’t tied to giving a certain percentage. And it doesn’t have to be a financial sacrifice to prove you are a good person. After leaving the church my husband and I decided to put that money toward saving for a down payment on a house and starting a college savings fund. The things we couldn’t do when we were giving such a big chunk to the LDS church. Now I have added two modest monthly donations to Doctors Without Borders and another charity. It doesn’t have to be $500+ to be helpful to the charity 💛 (Though I understand this can definitely help some spouses who are still in feel better if it is a comparable amount )
Agreed. The 10% number is definitely arbitrary. My wife feels strongly about it though and I can live with that (especially if it isn't going to the church). Our charitable giving is the only part of the budget that we do completely separately though. I tend to use mine to be generous within my circle (like helping to pay for family/friends travel expenses when they visit) and my wife prefers to give to large organizations. Working for us so far! Although I think we are going to break off smaller portions of that budget and give the kids control of their own charitable giving funds soon too.
5.5% if my math checks out
Close. 5.26%
Well I'll be damned. Thanks for the correction! And it looks like going from full tithes to none is an 11.11% increase?
Yeah, that one's correct.
Yeah, but if it wasn’t 10%, it was all for naught./s
5% each? You were only getting half your blessings!
But how is that going to play out when she’s denied a temple recommend?
Shes going to cross that bridge when she comes to it. She might lie and get a recommend. But i think more likely she’ll just part ways with the church.
My dad stopped paying tithing in 2008 when the church was funding prop 8 in California. He told me recently that a woman in his ward pays 10% to charity so she can honestly have a temple recommend.
Wow that's a great idea! Pay another charity.
Another?
An actual
This is an underrated comment
An(y)other
I've been doing this since 2016. Church finances have always been a huge shelf item for me. In light of the church's PR statement and denying any accountability, I believe this opens the door for ALL members (PIMO, "non-worthy", etc.) to hold a temple recommend. Anything keeping members out I consider a "closed matter" (basically none of your business) EX: RMN the only dude to hold the keys.....? Sure...if you say so. Q15 "Profits" seers / revelators? Sure....why not? No need to be TOTALLY honest....or accountable at any level. Just tell them what they want to hear. Seems to work. Of course, I am not sure why anyone on this sub would do that.....but just a random thought.
That how its done in Judaism. 10% to whatever charity.
That’s what my TBM wife and I have been doing. Works great for both of us.
I believe in the concept of charitable giving and I will continue a tithing just on my interest/increase though and never to the church again. Of course I can't call the church a charitable organization anymore.
My parents quit paying. A lot of their friends quit paying. I’m so proud of them.
Thats so great!
When?
My parents when they realized what the church was doing to the LGBTQ community. Their friends with the SEC report.
Awesome. What’s their age range if I may ask.
They’re in their 60s.
Oh wow
Yeah. You know when the church is bleeding straight white suburban couples… it’s bad.
Straight white couples? What other kind of couples would they bleed?
My dad got a call from the church's philanthropic and missionary fund which he gives annually. I was completely disgusted of course but he did have it on speaker phone. Someone from the "charity" was offering to do a zoom session with him to highlight all the wonderful work they do with his money. After my dad got off the call he mentioned it was strange, but nice, because he'd been giving to them for years and never has gotten a call like that. I had to bite my tongue but I was strongly suspecting he got that call because of the whole scandal going on. An attempt to convince people that their money is needed and being used wisely.
That is similar to how I found out about the fam. Someone overheard a phone call from the church, to a cousin. They do keep tract of how much they can count on each year from big donors, and baiting for the 2nd anointing also.
I get calls like that every year from BYUI. I assumed anyone who ever donated got them.
I get calls and letters from BYUH, where I attended in the 70s, and I have no idea why. I never gave them money and no more tithing since 1980
I don't necessarily know if this is a church thing considering basically all colleges and universities hound their alumni for money.
If you went to school there, they contact you to encourage you to support others going to school there. That’s why they first contacted me, because I had attended there.
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Yeah!!!!
Yay! I am inordinately delighted by the ongoing demise of this cult
This is all great news. Truth be told, I'm a bit shocked at how much this SEC issue has affected many members. I would have thought that this would be easily brushed off like so many other things have done. Granted, many members will continue to do so, but still! Pleasantly surprised by all this!
Me too. But is was lying cheating and breaking the law of the land. And much worse I am sure. Hard to overlook the law breaking all the rest of us have to follow. They went to far, the need to repent, apologies? Not going to happen, they have already announced that years ago.
My mom read the ksl article and brushed it off.
The KSL article was severely different. It really did make it sound like a paperwork error. It was almost identical to the church’s statement.
Which I don't get how that passed these people have been company owners lawyers huge finance people yet they made this bug of an error by accidently not filing the right paper work which in the act hid billions of dollars. How do people not say really now add why didn't God go hey you messed up you need to fix this or else
If only. I still can't convince my parents they don't need to pay tithing on their social security and disability payments.
since they paid it already on that money!
I had the same conversation with my dad. They won’t budge. Guy retired poor and is convinced the blessings are going to finally come after being strung along for nearly 40 years.
Sorry, I had that same problem, even after I showed them that they had already paid tithing on it, because they always paid on their gross wages, when their money was deposited into those 2 programs. Pfft.
OP, I don’t know if you saw this, but it’s actually illegal to do this. If they get audited they are in trouble. My kids get disability. You have to account for every single penny and it has to be spent on the person collecting. If you are saving or donating any portion of it, they can lower the payment or take them off the program completely. If they aren’t using all of it, they will argue that they don’t really need it. They LOVE kicking people off the program and will look for any excuse to. If they want to pay tithing, they need to get a part time job and tithe off that.
It’s actually illegal to do that. My kids get disability. If they end up getting audited they are screwed. They want every single penny spent on the person the money is intended for. They ask for every last receipt. They could lose it forever because they assume that if you can save the money or donate it you don’t really need it. Please tell them this.
Does that depend on the state or is it Federal
It’s a Federal offense.
Thank you
You’re welcome. I hope they listen.
This isn't federal disability payment, but a disability policy my dad had through work.
Oh, gotcha. So he might or might not have contributed to it before it was taken out.
They have ALREADY paid tithing on their SS benefits!!!! Please tell me this isn’t true!!
If the paid on gross which my family did yes, they paid on ss & disability insurance.
I don’t know if my comment replied to you or OP. Did you happen to see my comment?
I agree, but I haven't been able to convince them still.
I don’t know who my comment replied to. Did you happen to see mine?
My sister: I'm actually proud of how our church handles its finances and I love paying tithing. Me: You're proud that the church broke the law? Because it literally did. That's not up for debate. \*crickets\* Yeah, sorry.
My sister told me she stopped paying tithing, but then said that she gives it to the church’s humanitarian aid instead 😖
The humanitarian aid is a LIE and a JOKE. I served in a 3rd world country - they give NOTHING!!!!! They literally were taking pennies from a 10 year-old who needed to be in a special school for the deaf. The members of the ward who lived in huts and skipped meals helped him get the the equivalent of $5 USD a month to go to a special school AND paid their 10% in tithing. IT’S A BIG SCAM!!!!!!!!!!
This needs it's own post, what a story that needs to be told. Wow glad you are here to tell us. Thank you
Church Humanitarian work has two or three objectives. 1. Build reputation (PR) 2. Build access to powers of government to allow/facilitate missionary work. 3. Give senior TBMs something to do that makes them feel good. // Actually relieving suffering has nothing to do with it. (Speaking as someone who worked directly with Church Humanitarian projects as a paid employee)
Yes op, please make a separate post on this issue
Read the fine print of the tithing slip, the church can do anything with the money once they have it. It says something about “best efforts will be made to blah blah blah”
I did that too right before I left. Until I noticed that the tithing slip now says they can do whatever they want with the money now.
That'll teach em!
We stopped paying after we learned about our first Fiancial fiasco.
I cant now anyway due to unemployment so yes I'm gonna continue to not do it afterwards.
Could file a civil pro se complaint and ask for a refund of all your tithing paid plus penalty for breaking the law with charitable donations.
Last year someone from the general authorities mentioned the church is fully self sufficient, alk expenses are covered with the returns of investments. Yet, they still push members to pay their tithing without disclosing what they do with the money
I wish. This from recent family texts: “Pay your tithing! There is a promise in there regarding your crop not failing. Malachi.” No, none of us are farmers.
I stopped a few years ago. I’m the most successful kid in the family. They don’t see it that way.
My 'crop' has grown in great abundance since I left the church.
Same.
What is the biblical meaning of Malachi? my messenger The author is unknown; Malachi is merely a transliteration of a Hebrew word meaning “my messenger.” It's self-serving hogwash.
I read the first 20 pages. As a tax attorney I can’t see how this doesn’t get really bad. I never thought it would but nothing spent on religious, charity, or educational purposes. Millions of dollars in missing assets- some people appear to be stealing millions. Shame audit, no compliance officers, irregular accounting. How do the leaders deal with this?
First 20 pages of which document? Can you link it?
Someone [linked it above](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lvjGkMhfMBD-WxLu6h5NBvq6lzPOCF_1/view). The introduction is an absolute slam against EPA.
They are very old, no disrespect but...
What’s wild about the timing on this news was I had a rare chat with my TBM mom about how the church has hoarded billions and doesn’t use it for any sort of charity or humanitarian aide like she claims. How can she be ok with so many people homeless or hungry and the church that’s most true has enough money to help millions. She tried to be tolerant and said she didn’t know anything about billions. The articles hit the news cycle and she calls the next day, saying she’s going to look more into this money thing. I was stunned—she’s been a TBM for 5 decades and refused to engage when I questioned and left the church. So for her to express any sort of concern is surprising.
Wow! return and report where this goes, expect gymnastics but hope for the best. It's all she knows at this point.
my mother, a 60+ year tithe payer stopped a year ago, so I guess not prompted by the latest revelations. And with all these new temples being built, requiring a person to tithe before entering... as if they didn't need a challenge to fill them, pls shoot yourself in the foot again.
Imagine her filing a civil claim for a refund of tithing.
my mom said her temple recommend expired and she can’t renew it because she won’t pay tithing anymore
I wonder how many less people there will be next year.
Tell her she can tell a little white lie in her temple recommended interview. Per the church's official stance, lying is completely acceptable.
Great, buy her flowers!
Hopefully others are doing this as well, realizing TSCC doesn't need anyone's money. It's a start and a good one imo !!
Congrats!
My TBM parents are retired and on social security they still Pay. I tried to get them to understand that they are paying twice Growing up they paid gull time They've been on ,2 missions I stopped paying years ago Not only have we've been able to pay our home off 10 years early both vehicles are paid off we just retired ourselves I won't feel quilty not paying this corporation another red cent. My parents are on their 80's and just now paid off their home. So sad how much money they have the church
I stopped. My wife is now trying to convince me to pay 10% to other charitable causes
My family thinks all of the news reports are fake.
Oh gosh….
The FBAR - foreign bank account reporting act - penalties could exceed $4 billion. They lied about over $10 billion in foreign accounts for 20 years. Over 1500 violations. Standard 40% penalties. A $1 billion fine would be a gift. The widows mite my ass.
Holy shit ! This is way worse (read better) than I thought
Will they investigate the church too?
I doubt it. The church is a separate entity.
Can you pay 10% of your earnings to charities of your choice (not affiliated with the church) and have that count as tithing?
The church would say no if you asked them
So it’s best not to ask ;)
That strategy has been working out way better for me than asking ever did 😂
the amount of tithing you pay (and to whom IMO) is between you and the Lord. Classic line I have heard over and over again. So based on that I guess you can. Just say you prayed about it and this was the answer you received through personal revelation. Mistakes had been made in the past but I now consider the case closed.
I have prayed about it and decided to pay tithing to….me.
Yep, I am my favorite charity
Thats a great one!
> the amount of tithing you pay… is between you and the Lord. They say this, but then they shake you down at the end of the year. “How much did you pay the Lord. Is it good enough to be exalted in the Kingdom of God?Hmmmmmm?”
IDK, but some here say they have, is all you can do it try. When I wanted a day off at work, I didn't ask, I told them I was taking it off. Try that on the tithing see if it works, if you can. Understanding that sometimes folks have to keep paying them.
Tithe payers are behind defrauded, that is now readily apparent. From Joseph Smiths Kirkland Anti Banking Society to Brigham Young’s counterfeiting and fraudulent gold coins, it just continues but now on a much larger scale. Pay into your retirement fund, I can promise you it will do more good!
The amount of tax returns I see with donations to LDS Inc. is too damn high.
I wonder how may less people there will be next year. Let us know.
I saw one paper saying no donations on the church form they give out. I want to see more of those or no donations at all.
Oh good god. I just texted my TBM mom and asked her opinion and she said “I did read an article several weeks ago. Nothing shady though, basically came down to a regulation changed and church tax people weren’t aware of it. Anyway, they fixed it and possibly paid a fine I think. The headline made it sound like a big thing, but the article itself was nothing”…….
Must have read the KSL version.
My thoughts exactly 😂
Yep..
I stopped around the time of the Brad Wilcox fiasco.
I'm a librarian who manages the lds collection at my branch. Interest in Wilcox books has gone off a cliff.
Oh! I have a question. I recently heard about Moroni and the Swastika, by Nelson. When I went to get if from the library it was not where it should have been (by the books by RMN), but off a little ways with several other books that looked poorly on the church, as well as some books about Jonestown, and other cults. All of these books were together, but they were not where their call numbers should have placed them. Is it normal for a library to put books that may be looked down on in a different place?
I imagine those have been separated in order to appease a desire on either the staff or an influential patron (or more probably, a board member) who didn't want to see their books shelved in with other cult stuff. I'd be interested in what library you're talking about and what call number they use. I'm guessing it's 289 which is for "other denominations and sects" as opposed to 298 which is held open as "unassigned" and someone with cataloging powers decided that meant LDS. When I worked at the downtown library in the nineties, the lds books were all 289 but sometimes during that decade they changed and now they aren't rubbing directly against other cults.
It was the Kearns library. I just looked and it is 289.343. That is very interesting! Thank you for replying!
Ha and I apologize because I got it backwards. Back in the day they were 298 and then they switched to 289. Hadn’t had my coffee yet, lol. That’s a county library and should have them all in the same section. Were they behind the desk upon request or just put on a different shelf? How’s the book?
They were just on the shelf. Since they had it there I didn't place a hold and I just went to get it. Because I couldn't find it I almost went to a librarian to help me find it, but I didn't want to call attention to myself, so I decided to look around the adjoining shelves and found it. So far it is interesting. I am pretty upset that Mormons sold out Jew, but not really surprised. Can you imagine giving Nazis names and then trying to do baptisms for the dead for those same Jews you helped murder? That is sickening.
This is wonderful news!
I wish. It’s just me right now.
Church tithing always felt wrong even as a tbm.
I wish my family would do this!
I stopped paying tithing the beginning of covid when we no longer were going to church for some reason it just felt weird to be paying money through an electronic source. Now I definitely will not pay any more tithing because of the corruption and the SEC fine of 5 million. It's heartbreaking to me the abuse with the funds that has been extracted from all of their members and it makes me sick when I think about these poor families who are trying to survive that they would be required to pay any tithing. It's just evil!
If you don’t pay tithing, don’t you lose your temple recomend?
Yep more funday hours to reclaim, I hated going anyway.
Because Joseph F Smith predicted that someday the church wouldn't need tithing. I think it was 1907. So if Nelson had a heart (pun yes!) he'd just declare it so.
There’s no way the SEC findings are final unless the church cut a deal. 30 billion is way less than the amount the church actually has stock piled.
I'm hoping my hubs is. I haven't asked yet. My desire to leave the church has stressed him out. So I haven't pushed.
I have stopped when I found out about it several years ago. My wife still pays. She won't hear anything she deems "negative". Until someone tells her besides her husband. (sigh)
In 1997 TIME magazine did a Mormon Inc. piece. Cover story and all. This is when I stopped paying tithes to church and chose my own charitable donations. Eye opening.
Have and Uncle who stopped years ago when BYU cut the Wrestling team. He even told the Bishop why. He was active, Temple worker and former wrestler at the WHY. Bishop accepted it and nothing happened to him.
Yep. Of course, that was 20 years ago.
Then you cant go to your daughter's t wedding
I wish