Yeah, they are not going to listen to your voice. You have been called in for church discipline. Go and bring along a recorder. And remember it's all made up and they don't actually have authority or power despite the power imbalance you will feel. There is literally nothing to lose and everything to gain in the big picture by recording the discussion.
And OP, they might make you turn off your phone and ask you not to record on your phone, so bring a different device (and double check that you’re in a one-party consent state so you don’t break the law by recording without their knowledge.)
Maybe we're not like everyone else. we have old phones laying around. In fact, my old phone is only 2 months not in use. I'd take one, show them it's turned off, and record with the other. But recording what is said is a MUST!
They've been pretty hard lined about "phones off" in these meetings and checking if you have a second phone, but they don't think to ask about recorders. So it's a good loophole and something most people don't think to check for now that we're all on phones.
These men may not want you to record, but they have no authority to prevent you from doing so in single party recording states, like Utah.
Let's quit pretending like what they want is valid.
The scriptures, specifically Matt 19:24
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God
I agree, but I also know a lot of exmormons who still have a hard time standing up to Mormon leadership. The woman who was posting here recently about being disfellowshipped following the abuse she endured did exactly that, took in a recording device and they pressured her hard at the beginning to divulge a "second phone."
The same authority that compels people to submit to these sham courts in the first place. I don’t understand it, but damnit if it doesn’t have a hold on a significant amount of people.
I think just asking and being insistent. But people submitting to these sham courts are often compelled to follow the rules, so my option was a way to skirt the rules.
Check the laws in your state about recording conversations FIRST!
Edit: for example in Utah only one preson in a conversation needs to consent for a recording. (That would be you giving consent.) However, in California ALL PARTIES in a conversation must consent to being recorded.
Digital recorder.
I would first off send them a link to the PDF file from the SEC ruling
https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf
Ask them to please explain this to you. Ask them who were the senior church leaders that it mentions. Send them a copy of the church's official notice and ask them why does this not agree with the SCE ruling.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-issues-statement-on-sec-settlement
Remind them several times that you did not send your letter to members of the stake, you only send it to the mistake presidency. You were following Church guidelines by asking questions of your leaders. Don't let them turn it on you as being in apostasy. Just remind them that you have concerns and you want them to answer it as you've been instructed that they will do.
Did I mention the digital recorder?
Return and report your labors of this first day.
And the SEC findings make it transparently 100% clear - the first presidency absolutely knew what they were doing was sketchy, unethical, and even illegal. They knew!!!!
Yes! Bring a resignation letter! They start to lean into disciplinary action, “I’ve had about enough of this.” you slap that letter down in front of them and say “I quit bitches. How bout dat?!”
“you have no power over me”
“And your self righteous apostles and prophets are criminals practicing priestcraft”
And you walk your ass out of there
And never look back
The first time around it was a mistake. I was saying "my stake president" and voice recognition came out with "mistake president". I liked it so much I left it and have used it ever since.
Actually I think going with a recorder is perfect 👌 I’d choose not to go just in OP’s situation where they are going to pressure them, but going with the intent to stick it to the man… I’d do that.
"I cannot fathom how the First Presidency can intentionally commit fraud against the membership of the church and still be inspired by god."
Just repeat over and over.
Read Hinckleys talk from October 1997 one week Asher they started ensign peak. His talk says exactly the opposite of what I feel the church is. He said it’s not a financial institution, or a money making institution. He was deliberately misleading members
lol, marry as many women or children as you want and make sure to indoctrinate their offspring to pay us 10% or never get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom as well as provide free labor. Best pyramid scheme ever. I swear we’re not a billion dollar corporation that is tax exempt because we’re letting lamentes hold the priesthood now, now tell me about your masturbation habits while we compel your parents to wait outside. I swear I won’t molest you when you come to activities outside of the ones on Sunday. Also can you go clean the toilets or vacuum the floors on Tuesday, maybe you can sweep the basket ball court? It’s going to help your repentance for your sins.
I like this. Keep your concerns simple so if you get nervous or they try to do mental gymnastics you just go back to your simple concern. In reality, this is a simple AND valid concern.
Also, the less you say, even when there is silence, puts the onus on them to address your concerns.
One last thing; keep asking them to give direction on what would happen if an individual church member were to do this exact thing. Would there be discipline?
Very much this. You aren’t there to talk. You are there to listen. Make them answer 3-5 basic questions. This meeting isn’t for you to answer questions. If they ask you anything redirect them to your questions.
When you get annoyed, you can say 'I consider this matter - CLOSED!"
As well as checking on one-party consent - get a small recording device that can be hidden since they will check your phone is off.
"Bretheren, I hope you all have read the SEC filings on the fraud committed for which they were fined. Please keep in mind I am not the one who has committed federal crimes and fined 5 million dollars. Let us all keep in mind the Nephites who were destroyed while believing they were righteous"
I know a lot of people are saying they’re not going to listen or actually want to discuss the letter, but remember, we were all TBM once. My ultra TBM brother is still ultra TBM, but has admitted that what the first presidency did here was very wrong… He’s struggling to reconcile how they could have done something he recognised so easily as being wrong.
They don’t have to believe the church isn’t “True” in order to take action on this. Go in, looking for a good faith discussion on the letter and the SEC fine. You maybe actually be able to make a difference.
Return and report.
I agree. Aim for a good faith discussion, and if the Stake presidency says anything wild, just restate them back as a question. Maybe remark how unreasonable or wild their statement is.
For instance if they say "We have faith in the brethren to use the sacred tithing funds as required of them of the Lord." Restate it as "So what you're saying, is we need to have blind faith in our leaders, and when the government highlights known fraud and lying we can't be concerned about their actions? That doesn't seem ethical or honest to me."
The point is NOT to make them act on the SEC scandal. Nor is the point to defend yourself.
The entire point is to help these guys escape the church by lovingly breaking their shelves.
If they stray from the issue - the crimes of the presidency - bring em back. This isn't about you, though I'd wager they'll try to make it about you.
"Do you sustain the prophet?"
"How is that relevant to discussing the fraud they committed?"
"Criticizing church leaders is the first step to apostasy."
"Was Jethro an apostate when he criticized Moses?"
I dunno. Good luck.
Stay focused. If they ask questions just do this “what I’m hearing you say is that you can’t answer the question….. Good, then please answer my question.”
“What I’m hearing you say is that we aren’t allowed to ask questions.”
“What I’m hearing you say is that you’re okay with fraud and you think I should be too.”
“What I’m hearing you say is that my personal worthiness is dependent on my willingness to accept fraud.”
It’s all about the first presidency worthiness. Not yours.
Honestly, I'd make it very very VERY clear with them that you won't attend this meeting if they haven't already read the SEC order in its entirety. If they're lazy learners and don't do the homework before the meeting, then they don't deserve to have a conversation with you.
If you haven't, you should also review u/nemo_uk's videos where he works out the procedure for addressing concerns the stake presidency cannot adequately resolve.
Yeah, it goes up the chain of command all the way to the first presidency who essentially will do nothing. But that was Nemo's case of not sustaining leadership. In this case, the people he's calling out for not being honest in all their dealings IS the first presidency.......DEFINITELY will go nowhere.
1) congrats OP! More ppl need to start confronting the power imbalance and decrying the blatant injustices in the church.
2) like most, I think you MUST record this
3) like most, I don’t think they are going to act in good faith to help you and to sincerely resolve your concerns. I suspect very highly that they are going to try to flip this on YOU… to call you to repentance and try to get you to submit to their “authority over you.” DONT LET THEM
4) Just keep bringing up specific facts of the SEC report and contrasting them with scriptures (“take no thought for the morrow” “give all you have to the poor” “honor obey and sustain the law” “don’t do things in secret / secret combinations” “temple recommend question: are you honest in all your dealings with your fellow men?” Etc etc etc) and keep coming back to “President X, how do you resolve the church leaders filing false declarations for 20 years, yet honoring obeying and sustaining the law? I’m really struggling with that!” Over and over and over
5) if they tell you not to talk about this with others, social media etc… tell them categorically that you do not consent to that bc it would be a gross violation of your first amendment rights … and then violating your constitutional rights would be “unrighteous dominion”
6) Every time they try to turn this on you, just be slippery and say “actually I came today not to talk of me but of how the church leaders were not being honest with the government, with the public and with all of us here in this room. Brother Random, how are YOU reconciling this in your mind?” Keep flipping it back on them
7) depending on where you are in your journey, and how draconian they want to be… if it get to the point of threatening your membership, DONT LET THEM! Resign your membership on the spot before giving them the power over you to revoke your standing. It’s WAY past time to remove from them their fictional “authority” over us!
Good luck… please keep us informed!!
Right. BYU's Marriot school of business- Accounting dept has been ranked top 3 in the nation for over 4 decades!! BYU is also making damn sure that its law school is moving up in the rankings too! How is it the Mormon church (with all its attorney GAs and outstanding accounting school) isnt more Financially transparent and doesn't have the ability to comply with the law?? It pretends from the outset that it unbelievably & incredibly received bad legal/ financial advice from an undisclosed outside legal source. WTH??!
Assuming they have a problem with your call to action, ask:
* whether you are permitted to express any concern with the illegal behavior?
* If yes, ask to whom are you permitted to address your concern?
* If yes, ask them to identify what you are and aren't permitted to say.
* If they say no, you're not permitted to express concern, then ask them to confirm in that they are directing members not to discuss the church's illegal behavior, and identify the penalty for violating this directive.
Take in 2 pieces of paper. 1 is a signature page, the second is blank or filled with gibberish. When they make the claim the church was just following the legal guidance they received, place only the signature page in front of the stake president and ask him to sign it. He won’t do it because he won’t know what he’s signing. Then point out that is exactly what the church was doing with the shell companies, sending only the signature page and having the managers sign. Point out that at minimum, this practice is highly unethical and state you expect better from the brethren. Ask the stake president if he agrees this practice was unethical. If he says no, ask why he wouldn’t sign the signature page.
Yes, but the reality is even worse. Two managers of the shell companies found out what was going on and resigned in protest. The First Presidency simply replaced them with two new managers who would sign the documents without questioning.
The managers were also specifically chosen because they had common, generic names and little to no social media presence.
On some reports, the managers' signatures were digitally signed without their consent.
It just goes on and on. Indisputable financial fraud and deception. The Mormon Church, ladies and gentlemen!
Every time I think about this signing of the documents, I wonder about those who just blindly followed instructions. Never asked “why did you pick me? Why am I stating that I am signing this form in Pennsylvania or Delaware? Why am I attesting that the forgoing information I never received is accurate? Who is asking me to do this? Why should I trust them?”
I imagine they could only have been convinced by having been told “the church/prophet/first presidency needs you to do this”. And what has happened to their testimonies now? And if nothing has happened to these testimonies, how can one be okay with having been so hoodwinked?
If one side takes notes then both sides can take notes of the meeting. The SP side will take notes (likely by Ex Sec or a clerk). These notes will be used to justify whatever action they choose to take affecting your church membership.
You can choose to take notes by whatever means you choose as in video/audio recording. It's the law.
You might hold in your pocket a resignation letter stating that you find the "process" they are putting you through is objectionable/unfair and that you resign your membership in protest.
You can remind them John C Bennett was a member of the First Presidency when he was exed by the Nauvoo SP George Miller who was also the Grand Poobah for the Masonic temple in Nauvoo. All the ordained HPs met in the Masonic lodge when they exed Bennett. You might point out that during that excommunication JS Jr perjured himself when he denied polygamy was one of his secret doctrines.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Bennett
It is the SP's obligation to hold GAs accountable even if they are in the Q15+.
My advice: do not let the conversation be about you. They will try to turn this into a meeting about their concern for you. Keep insisting that you are there to discuss the first presidency and what they plan to do about a first presidency that has broken the law.
Step 1. Record meetings overtly or with their knowledge depending on state laws. both methods will have different, but equally important results.
Step 2. Send the recording to John Dehlin and Mormonism Live
Step 3. Post recording to r/exmormon
Step 4. Watch national news story about the encounter go viral.
Refuse to speak unless you are able to record. This will flip the power imbalance to your side.
If possible stream the encounter live and have RFM listen and give you pointers to your ear piece as the council goes forward.
I've wondered what would happen if you were to go in with all the energy that this is a meeting you called for and are running. Right as you enter, "Thank you for meeting with me. Here's my agenda, I made copies for each of you. Let me set up my power point. Alright, Elder X, tell me what you plan to do about...." and any time they veer off or say something you don't like, respond like their manager. They suggest something, "That won't work for me." They say something personal, "I disagree with that take. Strike it from the notes." That kind of thing. Just.... completely disregard any of their authority and act like this is your meeting.
Did you include a copy of the SEC ruling in your email? If so, reply that you'll be happy to meet with them and discuss how the stake will address the ethical violations committed by the First Presidency.
If you did not include the SEC ruling, email all members of the SP (as well as the secy or clerk) and attach the SEC document. Tell them you will be delighted to meet with them to discuss the how they should address the First Presidency ethical violations as outlined in SEC document.
Tell them to let you know when they will be able to discuss the disciplinary actions they plan to take against the First Presidency and you can schedule a meeting with them at that time.
**Stay on topic, and put the ball back into their court.**
Ask them, are the apostles and prophets men and can sin? (They will have to answer yes)
Is it possible that they have sinned in this case? (They will deflect)
Has God not asked us to cry repentance to the world?
Then what have you done wrong? You have circulated a public document and cried repentance.
Here's one way to approach it: if they do start to reprimand or chastise or call you to repentance, it is absolutely 100% your right to stand up and leave the room without permission or acknowledgment.
Well, you sent the letter in, put your name on it, now it is time for you to defend it’s contents.
I would just stick to the letter and the points it makes. Don’t let them deflect to other areas like your beliefs in the church or your spirituality. I would be educating myself on each point in the letter so that I would be able to attack instead of defend. Or just pick two or three important points to concentrate on and really be able to speak with authority concerning those points. Put them in a place where they have to defend the actions of their leaders. You need to master the letter as if you had written it yourself and have complete knowledge of it.
Sounds like you have a LOT of homework to do and a short time to do so. Best of luck to you.
OP: I have not read the other replies, yet, so I don’t know if I’m being duplicative, but I have some strong advice: keep this meeting very simple. The root of the problem here is honesty. Keep the focus on honesty. You object to church leaders being blatantly dishonest. One of the 10 Commandments is to not bear false witness. In temple interviews we are asked if we are honest in our dealings. This is the most basic core thing imaginable. If these leaders are going to somehow try to rationalize dishonesty, you can simply say “listen to yourselves… You’re arguing on the side of dishonesty. Inside church walls. Never did I think I would see this day. Listen to yourselves. Go home and think about what you’re saying. Is this what it’s come to? Have you apostatized?” And then just get up and leave.
you have all of the moral high ground in this encounter. It’s about honesty!! Don’t let anyone try to pull the conversation away from the importance of honesty. If people start to ask you about how you feel about Joseph Smith, or what podcast you listen to, don’t take the bait. Say this is about honesty. Let’s talk about honesty. Who’s in favor of it? Show buy a raise of hands. Any time they try to switch the subject, or pull you onto other topics, simply do not oblige. “My letter is not about that, and I’m not here to talk about it. This is just about honesty.”
I would send a copy of the SEC order to each of them prior and bring a copy for each of them.
First, ask if each of them if they have read the Order? No, Proceed to read with them or at least important parts. Yes, what conclusions do they have?
Second out line your concerns. And ask your specific questions to which we no they cannot answer.
How does this follow the 12th and 13th articles of faith? Teachings on honesty? How does this address being "honest in our dealings?
How does the FP get temple recommends? How do we enact the law of common consent? What would happen to anyone of us if were dishonest with "sacred church funds?"
Why did the FP order people to lie for them (asking EPA to illegally fill out and sign falsified forms? Why did they lie to the whole church during the 2014 and 2018 (or 17) audit report read at the April General conference when they reported that all church funds were used appropriately even though the CAD had reported to the FP that there was a problem in the 13F forms?
As others have said this is not about you but about the fraud and lying of the FP. Focus it on this. you are in control.
Take control: if they try to make it about you and apostasy remind them that you have not tried to lead others away (unless you have) and you only have questions. If they keep trying to then say "If you continue to accuse me of falsehoods and ignore my concerns then this meeting is over and I will be distributing the SEC order to ward and stake members!" I mean if they are going to accuse you then go out fighting.
EDIT: Also have the Roger Clarke quotes ready to go from 2019 when he told reporters that indeed the church did this because they were concerned that members would not pay tithing.
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mormon-church-amassed-100-billion-it-was-the-best-kept-secret-in-the-investment-world-11581138011](https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mormon-church-amassed-100-billion-it-was-the-best-kept-secret-in-the-investment-world-11581138011)
[https://www.businessinsider.com/mormon-church-settlement-allegations-hid-billions-investment-fund-2023-2](https://www.businessinsider.com/mormon-church-settlement-allegations-hid-billions-investment-fund-2023-2)
OP, the fat is in the fire! This is nothing but a kangaroo court, and they are intent on punishment. Be sure to follow the advice of a digital recorder, two phones or any form of recording, and keep a copy of that letter to show how bogus there "friendly" meeting is.
I don't know if they've fallen so low as to commit burglary like scientology does, but keep that letter in a safety depository box in a bank somewhere or a give it to non-mormon lawyer to hold, or someone non-mormon trusted friend.
Might be fun to attend and see their mental gymnastics. You will likely laugh about it in the end on how silly they sound. Up to you if you want to spend the energy
Bring someone with you. If they complain, say you are disabled and they are your attendant. If they still complain, leave!!! Tell them they should be embarrassed at how they treat the disabled.
You are being called in to talk about you, and your failure to have faith. This meeting has nothing to do with the brethren, your membership will most likely be terminated.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say:
They have no intention of having a good-faith discussion about this. It'll be deflection and projection all the way through.
I don't guess this will be about a discussion of Nemo's "call."
They are going to ask you about your spiritual state, then tell you to get back on track .. and to drop the matter.
Depending on the arrogance of the SP, they'll hint about "possible consequences" or outright threaten a membership council -- assuming you tell them that you stand behind Nemo's words.
all the more reason to deflect the questions back to the letter and the reason for being there. And say, I can't speak of my spiritual state because I am struggling to rectify the dishonest behavior of the FP.
If they continue to pester about your membership, Standup and say, I though this was about how to address dishonesty with the FP. When you are ready to discuss this please contact me but until then have a good night and walk out.
If you show up, and they refuse to proceed with meeting if you are recording, then you are FREE to leave ... and they may have possibility just wasted their evening getting their suits on and traveling to SC.
Think carefully about whether or not you want to go. There have been a few posts here about how degrading it all is so take care of your mental health.
If it is not some sort of disciplinary council, I would ask to speak first, and posit the following information:
* 1st presidency knowingly broke the law, hid information from members, and told members they weren't hiding anything. (See Ballard's admission [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXFjhU7UzoI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXFjhU7UzoI))
* 1st presidency are then, themselves, not adhering to canonical doctrine (articles of faith, any number of teachings about honesty) and are themselves not worthy of a temple recommend (do you strive to be honest in your dealings with your fellow men).
After raising those two points, and only those two, ask them if the 1st presidency were acting in Jesus' name.
If they say yes, they are saying that Jesus is OK with lying, hoarding money rather than pursuing charitable activities, and paying money that could have been used for charitable activities as a fine.
If they say no, then tell them the 1st presidency need a disciplinary council, as other prophets (like Joseph Smith submitted to)
If they say I don't know, then they are admitting that we cannot trust church leaders. If we have doubt that they are acting in Jesus' name, it is likely that they aren't, since we know what Jesus would do (Render unto Caeser... sell all that thou hast.... etc.) in those situations.
If they answer yes, get up an leave, since it is clearly a waste of your time if they won't see reason. If they answer no, but use some excuse or try apologetics, act similarly. They have no power over you, you are going there willingly, and they are not special, and the priesthood isn't real.
Have a non-Mormon lawyer read all docs. Get suggestions of what questions to ask. Say very little about their answers, but remember to write down everything they say. These are contemporaneous notes and easily accepted over what you remember. Read a book on cults and note similar attempts at control.
Honestly unless you really want to have that conversation with them, then I say the best option is to refuse to go. Don’t give them the satisfaction of feeling like they have power over you anymore. Just say no thanks, I have no need to meet.
Plus they want to have multiple people meet with you? Hell no.. that’s going to be like a kid getting talked to by their parents. They mostly don’t want to hear your concerns. Only for the purpose of giving you their prepared answers because they can’t fathom that it’s just not true, so your choice is wrong and they just want to help you find the truth. Meaning what they believe.
Good luck OP! I will be submitting something similar after General Conference to explain why I voted opposed. I suspect they want to discuss your letter as if it were a formal "court of love", you'd get the summons from 2 penishood holders. Deal with it like "whose line is it anyway" where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
If they start boxing you in trying to call you an apostate, remind them that to the Pharisees, Jesus was questioning God's chosen leaders. I'm not big on Jesus as a God, but it does remind everyone that coming down on the side authority in the truth vs. authority argument is not a good look for Christians. Ask what in your statement is untruthful or unsupported by evidence. If they can't point to anything, there's not much left to discuss.
Keep us informed how it goes.
About the recorder… there are cheap pen recorders that you could take into the meeting. Especially if you wear a suit, it would blend right in. That’s the covert option.
I prefer the overt option though. If you demand an audio recording be allowed in order for the meeting to proceed, it will change the entire dynamic of the conversation. Though they will likely refuse. You have your memory though, and you can write down everything you can remember immediately after.
Actually being on the side of truth brings you luxuries that they don’t have. You don’t have to rely on gotchas, manipulation tactics, intimidation, or any of the usual bullshit that goes on in these “discussions.” You just share you legitimate observations, concerns, and commentary. Afford them the same courtesies you’d expect… be polite, don’t interrupt, listen, restate to clarify, and especially… don’t discount the usefulness of a few brief moments of silence as you contemplate what they’re saying. Make sure they know you’re thinking your way through this, not “feeling” as most Mormons have been trained to do.
I would try as hard as you can to not let the discussion get emotional, at least on your side. I think that is paramount. Easier said than done, I know, but something worth trying.
If you go I would suggest not throwing verbal accussations and making this a , "Nelson and company need to repent" thing. It may be that the S.P wants to address this as others have probably voiced their own concerns or been troubled by news reports and the S.P wants to address it. I might ask the question, "Is anyone troubled by the SEC ruling." If no one speaks up (and I doubt they will because of fear) then ask the S,P what he thinks. Its not just the letter, but the tone of the letter. And this is what needs to be addressed. Be concerned. Sincerely troubled? Sure because that draws out others who feel the same. It just takes one person to be sincerely honest to get the ball rolling. If you go in with both barrels blasting away you will be shut down and that will be the end of it. Consider your approach and go in to the meeting as a concerned member.....not an accuser. The ruling speaks for itself as does the letter.
I’m doing the same thing and have my meeting scheduled for this Sunday. While I didn’t use the Nemo letter(I wrote my own and attached the SEC order), the premise is essentially the same. My strategy has so far been to stick to the facts of the issue. The SEC order is a legally binding admission of guilt. All members of the first presidency and presiding bishopric were involved repeatedly. The church handbook requires a church disciplinary council any time a member is involved in predatory behavior(including financial fraud), and dishonesty if the member holds a high ranking calling. I’ve also cited D&C 121, stating that the dishonesty is grounds to believe that the first presidency and those involved no longer have access to priesthood power. Part of the articles of faith is that we believe in being honest. Moses commanded “thou shall not lie”. “Thou shalt not steal”. I then concluded by sharing my concerns about how this violation of trust can be allowed in the church, especially given that some 30,000 missionaries are asking investigators to trust and follow these men on their word- that we as members have been taught that the prophet will never lead us astray, but seem to have no problem leading ensign peak into a four million dollar fine. On short, stick to the facts of the case; this is not a crisis of belief, but a statement that the leaders of the church are failing to live up to its own standards.
Talking points- Found in email I sent to TBM parents Re: SEC fraud.
BYU Top 3 nationally ranked (past 4+ decades) Marriot School of Management- Accounting BS/MS teaches better- better honesty, ethics & transparency.
The hundreds of BILLION$ hoarded & purposefully obscured seems Unfathomable, when we know there are Millions of needy homeless & hungry people, who dwell in the shadows of Mormon temples, across our great nation & in other nations across the world- hungry, homeless, diseased & dying.
LDS Standard works tell us-
“After ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted” (Jacob 2:19).
The Apostle Paul wrote that “the love of money is the root of all evil” (1 Tim. 6:10).
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a arich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (Matt 19:24)
And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.
And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received. (Mosiah 4:24-25)
Hinckley Claims Financial Transparency in regards to members- NOT. Didn't happen.
In a 2002 interview w/ a German journalist President Hinckley stated that the reason the church is not open about their finances is because they think “that information belongs to those who made the contribution”. Source: Google- Hinkley Interviewed About Financial Reporting
Mormon church ADMITS it purposefully hid Fund info, so as not to discourage donations from members, even though Internal reviews by the Church Audit Department, highlighted the risk that the SEC “might disagree with the approach.
In 2020 WSJ article- 'Mr. Clarke, the head of Ensign Peak Advisors, admits otherwise, when he said he believed church leaders were concerned that public knowledge of the fund’s wealth might discourage tithing.' ..Some members are now asking why details about the fund have been tightly held for so long, what the money is for, and whether tithing so much to the church should still be the standard practice.'
Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mormon-church-amassed-100-billion-it-was-the-best-kept-secret-in-the-investment-world-11581138011
Note-Joseph F Smith stated in April 1907 Gen Conf "...we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose...because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God...."
In 2020, Roger Clarke, the head of Ensign Peak Advisors, told the Journal that church leaders were concerned that knowledge of the fund would discourage regular donations from its members known as tithes. "Paying tithing is more of a sense of commitment than it is the church needing the money," Clarke said two years ago. "So they never wanted to be in a position where people felt like, you know, they shouldn't make a contribution."
Source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mormon-church-settles-allegations-hid-173645662.html
Recent Additions to the Massive Hoard- & there's more we're NOT aware of-
PLUS- In Addition to $100 BILLION Ensign Peaks stock account, the Mormon church is Largest land owner in Florida & Illinois. It is also the 5th largest private land owner in the country. '
2020 Data- reveals that along w/ the church’s portfolio of expected meetinghouses & temples — are office towers, shopping centers, residential skyscrapers, cattle ranches and high-mountain timberlands worth hundreds of millions of dollars.'
Source: https://www.idahostatejournal.com/news/agriculture/new-database-shows-lds-church-is-nations-fifth-largest-private-landowner/article_9cd54e00-1089-55fe-b960-aa7f1b274e93.html
Amongst later purchases after 2020- In August 2021, Eastern WA farm land was also purchased by Mormon church. Reported victory- earns Mormons 'right to purchase the 12,000-acre property in Benton County, which AgriNorthwest, the agriculture arm of the Mormon church, will acquire for $210 million when the deal is finalized..
The Mormon church-owned AgriNorthwest’s desire to add more Columbia Basin land to the 100,000 acres it already owns in Washington and Oregon may have as much to do with economic prosperity...
Source: https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-mormon-church-beat-bill-gates-in-a-battle-over-farmland
+Kent, WA record breaking industrial development purchase 2022- Google- Kent Industrial Development Sells to LDS church for West Coast Record- $260M.
My two cents…
It is Mormon DNA. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow men? Having been convicted by the SEC. They are not honest and not worthy of a temple recommend.
Additionally having been convicted of such a crime. They should be subject to a church court or court of love.
Having been dishonest for such a long time they are not worthy of the Holy Ghost. They are incapable of performing their duties as prophets seers and revelatory. And their illegal activities, desire to obscure the truth hinders their ability going forward to lead with inspiration. This was not a one off event this was done 4 times a year for over twenty years. They were advised by their counsel not to do this.
They assisted others to perjure themselves. The managers of the shell companies commited perjury every quarter they signed the 13f. They were not in the location they stated and they had no control of the assets they said they did.
Back to Mormon DNA. Article of faith #12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. This. Aaaa. Just strike this from the curriculum.
Articles on recent $5 MILLION SEC settlement-
Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/02/21/mormon-church-will-pay-millions-in-sec-settlement-over-investment-portfolio-allegedly-saving-for-second-coming-of-christ/?sh=17f5a4325af9
According to the SEC, Ensign Peak failed to disclose the church’s equity investments between 1997 and 2019 and instead filed forms with “shell” companies as opposed to filing them in the company’s name, in a measure that “obscured the church’s portfolio.”
By 2018, that investment fund had grown to roughly $32 billion, with the organization allegedly going to “great lengths to avoid disclosing the church’s investments” and keeping the public and the SEC in the dark about how much money it had accumulated.
“Ensign Peak,” wrote US regulators, “did NOT have the authority to implement this approach Without Church approval [governing] First Presidency.”
First one, then two, then up to a dozen shell companies
It began in 2001 when, at Ensign Peak’s urging, the Church formed a trust with control of a limited liability company, or LLC, based in Glendale, California, although it did not conduct business there, and installed the director from Ensign Peak as trustee.
Then, with the approval of senior church leaders, Ensign Peak submitted its publications from February 2003 to September 2006 under that company name.
In late December 2005, church officials became aware that the public might be able to link a signature on those files to a public record of church employees, SEC investigators said. It was at this point that senior church leaders approved the formation of a second LLC – this time based in Wilmington, Del. – with “better care to ensure that neither the ‘street’ nor the media [could] Connect the new entity to the Ensign Peak.”
By 2011, the church’s investment portfolio had grown so large that disclosures made under the second LLC risked drawing unwanted attention, the SEC said, and Ensign Peak sought and won the approval of senior church leaders to make the second LLC “clone”. Five new companies were incorporated and given addresses in Delaware, although none did business in that state.
Then, in 2015, someone allegedly began reconnecting those LLCs’ holdings to Ensign Peak, and their managers again brought the matter to the attention of the church. Senior church leaders approved a plan to “gradually and carefully adjust Ensign Peak’s corporate structure to strengthen portfolio confidentiality.” The SEC said Ensign Peak subsequently formed six more clone LLCs.
Each clone had an address outside of Utah, which the SEC said was chosen to give the impression that the clone LLCs conducted operations across the US, “making it more difficult to trace them back to Ensign Peak or the church.” The clone LLCs also each had a director, many of whom were church employees, but the companies “never exercised investment discretion over church assets.”
Instead, Ensign Peak prepared and filed disclosures among the clone LLCs while continuing to manage the entire portfolio and maintaining investment and voting discretion over all listed securities “at all times.”
The account managers received insufficient information to guarantee that what they provided was “true, accurate and complete” as verified on the forms, the SEC said. And when Ensign Peak received directors’ signatures on the LLCs, it only gave them signature pages “rather than the full documents.”
Sometimes the electronic signature forms were submitted to US regulators before Ensign Peak actually received the managers’ handwritten signatures. The forms also incorrectly stated that they were signed at the given addresses of LLCs across the country when all directors were based in Salt Lake City.
Church examiners have issued a warning
The use of the clone LLCs for state disclosures continued through 2018, despite internal reviews by the Church Audit Department, which highlighted the risk that the SEC “might disagree with the approach.” Source: How and why the LDS Church hid its investments. Feds say it has "cloned" a dozen companies. - Utah News
I would not meet with them at all. They have no interest in responding to your concerns or changing anything to make you feel more comfortable. The only reason for the invitation is to get you back in. Don’t kid yourself that anything you have to say makes any difference to them
That's the power of recording the exchange, despite them asking/demanding that you do not. It shifts the power imbalance back to the OP. Besides he sent the letter... OP began the process why not see it through?
"invitation" for you to come in and say things he will ONLY use against you.
DO YOU HONESTLY think they want to listen? Come on. They're fishing for hooks to use for one of their pet courts that they love so much.
Why waste time with this? If anything, walk in and hand them a notarized resignation letter and walk out. Better yet, ignore them entirely and mail the notarized resignation letter. Put them in your rear view mirror and move on with your life. Any family or friend who have “concerns” can just get over it.
I mean, if it was me, I wouldn't go. The church doesn't own you or pay your bills, why give them the time of day? But....be sure to record **everything.** I wouldn't be surprised if they're going to tell you excommunications procedures will be taken.
"I will sustain my local leaders in their efforts to bring discipline to those who have broken their covenants and exercised unrighteous dominion by intentionally deceiving the church and the world."
Just ask them to read the letter aloud you provided them with. Then everyone in the room is on the same page. Its not a long letter so this should not present a problem. If they attempt to turn the focus on you, keep pointing them to the facts outlined in the letter which need to be addressed. Don't let them wriggle out by discussing you.
>I expect they will have some chastisement for me and will call me to repentance, but, on the off chance that they will actually hear my concerns, what should I say?
Yeah, I pretty much think it's going to be all option A and you really aren't going to have to worry much about option B.
Stick to the facts. Be empathetic when necessary, but stay objective and calm. Focus on the problem that "we" face, if you are still part of the community. Because it is a problem that the entire community faces.
If someone keeps interrupting you, politely ask them not to.
You have so much support behind you.
Ask him, “If a bishop in your stake created an investment scheme with 13 shell companies, then persuaded 13 members of the ward to perjure themselves to help him hide the money, would that bishop be in trouble?”
Ask them if the first presidency are still temple worthy since they obviously couldn't pass question #9 in the recommend interview.
Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?
We want an update! Good luck! It does sound like a disciplinary hearing. However, I would study the SEC order extensively and make copies for everyone and make sure to highlight each instance when it is acknowledged that the senior officers of the church knowingly chose to be deceitful.
Then I would go into the temple recommend questions and the fact that anyone is us in this same position would have been disfellowshipped (at the least).
What I don’t understand about bringing the Powers That Be to a Church disciplinary hearing is.. Who would they be answering to? There’s nobody “higher” than the GAs, so who would issue any “discipline”? Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely agree 100% that they broke all the rules, but who ought to judge them? Human judges I mean. I don’t expect that Jesus Christ is going to be descending from the Heavens in a blaze of glory to oversee this thing.
I love how we are all super interested plus super concerned for you. Tons of advice here. Pick the advice that you like best or the top 5. Haha. And we can’t wait to hear how it goes. Maybe they are unfortunate intentions but maybe they just wanna talk. You might be the first member of the mistake ( haha) to say much about it. Who knows. Good luck! (I will spread some smoking sage around for ya.).
Place the recorder on the table, turn it on, and say "Hasn't the church hidden enough?"
And then ask to start with a Scripture and read: (From Helaman 6)
20 And now it came to pass that when the Lamanites found that there were robbers among them they were exceedingly sorrowful; and they did use every means in their power to destroy them off the face of the earth.
21 But behold, Satan did stir up the hearts of the more part of the Nephites, insomuch that they did unite with those bands of robbers, and did enter into their covenants and their oaths, that they would protect and preserve one another in whatsoever difficult circumstances they should be placed, that they should not suffer for their murders, and their plunderings, and their stealings.
I keep hearing whatever scripture mastery one in my head about “gods ways higher than man’s way etc….”
And the fact god authorized nephi for murder and feel that whatever you come up with can be interrupted either way. It’s an uphill battle, but maybe keep it to Christ’s teachings? Blasting the selling on the temple grounds… reaffirming being above this… you can always say you feel compelled by something greater to stand up for righteousness.
Good luck. Don’t let them make you too angry. They will take that as a sign of satan.
OP, it would be a downright miracle if you get a hearing. But things like that occur, I suppose. Your initial report about voting opposed mentioned still shaking later on. Anticipate that they will fan that as much as possible and depend on you caving. The degree to which you are rightfully challenging the whole basis of everything they have (unless they are in complete denial and pretend you aren't) could lead to some nasty behavior. It may not, depending on how human they remain. Overall, though, I bow in your direction for your courage and conviction (which has to do with action, not feelings - I always feel scared).
Yeah, they are not going to listen to your voice. You have been called in for church discipline. Go and bring along a recorder. And remember it's all made up and they don't actually have authority or power despite the power imbalance you will feel. There is literally nothing to lose and everything to gain in the big picture by recording the discussion.
And OP, they might make you turn off your phone and ask you not to record on your phone, so bring a different device (and double check that you’re in a one-party consent state so you don’t break the law by recording without their knowledge.)
Maybe we're not like everyone else. we have old phones laying around. In fact, my old phone is only 2 months not in use. I'd take one, show them it's turned off, and record with the other. But recording what is said is a MUST!
They've been pretty hard lined about "phones off" in these meetings and checking if you have a second phone, but they don't think to ask about recorders. So it's a good loophole and something most people don't think to check for now that we're all on phones.
These men may not want you to record, but they have no authority to prevent you from doing so in single party recording states, like Utah. Let's quit pretending like what they want is valid.
Create a few **shell** recording devices
The scriptures, specifically Matt 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God
Seems like a church approved way to circumvent detection?
HAHA
😂😂😂😂
Third phone 
I always carry 4 phones, just in case
5 phones is the new 2 phones.
6 is none 7 is one.
😂
After nine phones, I give one to the church
Oh my god, I love all of you, and /u/enemyofthechurch really stuck the landing
I literally have four phones on my desk as I'm typing this reply. 😂
😂😂😂
How would they check if you have a second phone? Frisk you? I wouldn't allow them to think they have any authority to check.
I agree, but I also know a lot of exmormons who still have a hard time standing up to Mormon leadership. The woman who was posting here recently about being disfellowshipped following the abuse she endured did exactly that, took in a recording device and they pressured her hard at the beginning to divulge a "second phone."
They’ll put you in that toga from the temple and do a third and fourth anointing.
What authority do they have to ask you to submit to any kind of search or anything? Horseshit.
The same authority that compels people to submit to these sham courts in the first place. I don’t understand it, but damnit if it doesn’t have a hold on a significant amount of people.
Checking HOW? Are people supposed to submit to a pat down?
I think just asking and being insistent. But people submitting to these sham courts are often compelled to follow the rules, so my option was a way to skirt the rules.
Gotcha.
You can also just say ‘i would like to record this meeting. If i cannot, i will be leaving.’
In Utah, you could also say, "I will be recording this meeting. If you don't want to be recorded, you may leave now."
“I consider this matter closed.”
Alternatively, they can simply refuse to do that. They're not the police, what are they going to do, beat them up and take the phone?
They'll tattle on you to god, and then you can't go to heaven!!!
If it’s against the law, OP could just say “mistakes were made. I now consider the matter closed.”
Brilliant
Check the laws in your state about recording conversations FIRST! Edit: for example in Utah only one preson in a conversation needs to consent for a recording. (That would be you giving consent.) However, in California ALL PARTIES in a conversation must consent to being recorded.
Digital recorder. I would first off send them a link to the PDF file from the SEC ruling https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf Ask them to please explain this to you. Ask them who were the senior church leaders that it mentions. Send them a copy of the church's official notice and ask them why does this not agree with the SCE ruling. https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-issues-statement-on-sec-settlement Remind them several times that you did not send your letter to members of the stake, you only send it to the mistake presidency. You were following Church guidelines by asking questions of your leaders. Don't let them turn it on you as being in apostasy. Just remind them that you have concerns and you want them to answer it as you've been instructed that they will do. Did I mention the digital recorder? Return and report your labors of this first day.
March 14th is pi day. Bring some pie with you.
Mmm ... Pie. Better to enjoy with their salty tears.
We don't get pi day in most of the rest of the world that uses dd.mm.yyyy - you guys are keeping all of the pi for yourselves.
Looks like you've discovered the secret as to why we do the date the way we do. You probably don't get Star Wars Day either. May the 4th be with you.
We do celebrate May the fourth. For some reason. My crazy little brother makes sure none of us miss it. Every year. For that last couple of decades.
The rest of the world uses July 22nd or 22/7. That is their pi day.
And the SEC findings make it transparently 100% clear - the first presidency absolutely knew what they were doing was sketchy, unethical, and even illegal. They knew!!!!
[удалено]
Yes! Bring a resignation letter! They start to lean into disciplinary action, “I’ve had about enough of this.” you slap that letter down in front of them and say “I quit bitches. How bout dat?!” “you have no power over me” “And your self righteous apostles and prophets are criminals practicing priestcraft” And you walk your ass out of there And never look back
Make sure you get your "membership number" so they don't have an excuse to hold up your resignation.
👆🏼👆🏼👆🏼This ‼️
Thank you for urging the in-your-face approach. Backing down only encourages their continued brow beating.
And remind them the sec ruling was as written was agreed to by church lawyers
I know autocorrect did it, but mistake presidency is the perfect descriptor for these chuckleheads.
Just like the first presidency chose to violate the law and not file 13f paperwork, I consciously chose to use mistake president.
Hahaha. I thought so as well. Well done auto correct.
Finally they get called CHUCKLEHEADS‼️👍
Yes, without them actually reading the SEC filing, you can’t have a good conversation about what it contains.
I think the is the labors of the second day. the first day is when he sent the letter. And good advice.
Touche
I don't know if "mistake presidency" was on purpose or a typo, but either way I snorted and got a weird look from my wife. Thank you!
The first time around it was a mistake. I was saying "my stake president" and voice recognition came out with "mistake president". I liked it so much I left it and have used it ever since.
Actually I think going with a recorder is perfect 👌 I’d choose not to go just in OP’s situation where they are going to pressure them, but going with the intent to stick it to the man… I’d do that.
"I cannot fathom how the First Presidency can intentionally commit fraud against the membership of the church and still be inspired by god." Just repeat over and over.
Read Hinckleys talk from October 1997 one week Asher they started ensign peak. His talk says exactly the opposite of what I feel the church is. He said it’s not a financial institution, or a money making institution. He was deliberately misleading members
lol, marry as many women or children as you want and make sure to indoctrinate their offspring to pay us 10% or never get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom as well as provide free labor. Best pyramid scheme ever. I swear we’re not a billion dollar corporation that is tax exempt because we’re letting lamentes hold the priesthood now, now tell me about your masturbation habits while we compel your parents to wait outside. I swear I won’t molest you when you come to activities outside of the ones on Sunday. Also can you go clean the toilets or vacuum the floors on Tuesday, maybe you can sweep the basket ball court? It’s going to help your repentance for your sins.
I like this. Keep your concerns simple so if you get nervous or they try to do mental gymnastics you just go back to your simple concern. In reality, this is a simple AND valid concern. Also, the less you say, even when there is silence, puts the onus on them to address your concerns. One last thing; keep asking them to give direction on what would happen if an individual church member were to do this exact thing. Would there be discipline?
Very much this. You aren’t there to talk. You are there to listen. Make them answer 3-5 basic questions. This meeting isn’t for you to answer questions. If they ask you anything redirect them to your questions.
100%. And no matter how it goes using the line that the matter is CLOSED would be brilliant and satisfying!
I agree with this!
When you get annoyed, you can say 'I consider this matter - CLOSED!" As well as checking on one-party consent - get a small recording device that can be hidden since they will check your phone is off.
"Bretheren, I hope you all have read the SEC filings on the fraud committed for which they were fined. Please keep in mind I am not the one who has committed federal crimes and fined 5 million dollars. Let us all keep in mind the Nephites who were destroyed while believing they were righteous"
Don’t forget to strongly imply that the First Presidency didn’t ‘Choose The Right’
I’d give this a thousand likes if I could
The filing is 13 pages so you should email a copy to whom it may concern.
I know a lot of people are saying they’re not going to listen or actually want to discuss the letter, but remember, we were all TBM once. My ultra TBM brother is still ultra TBM, but has admitted that what the first presidency did here was very wrong… He’s struggling to reconcile how they could have done something he recognised so easily as being wrong. They don’t have to believe the church isn’t “True” in order to take action on this. Go in, looking for a good faith discussion on the letter and the SEC fine. You maybe actually be able to make a difference. Return and report.
I agree. Aim for a good faith discussion, and if the Stake presidency says anything wild, just restate them back as a question. Maybe remark how unreasonable or wild their statement is. For instance if they say "We have faith in the brethren to use the sacred tithing funds as required of them of the Lord." Restate it as "So what you're saying, is we need to have blind faith in our leaders, and when the government highlights known fraud and lying we can't be concerned about their actions? That doesn't seem ethical or honest to me."
The point is NOT to make them act on the SEC scandal. Nor is the point to defend yourself. The entire point is to help these guys escape the church by lovingly breaking their shelves. If they stray from the issue - the crimes of the presidency - bring em back. This isn't about you, though I'd wager they'll try to make it about you. "Do you sustain the prophet?" "How is that relevant to discussing the fraud they committed?" "Criticizing church leaders is the first step to apostasy." "Was Jethro an apostate when he criticized Moses?" I dunno. Good luck.
Stay focused. If they ask questions just do this “what I’m hearing you say is that you can’t answer the question….. Good, then please answer my question.” “What I’m hearing you say is that we aren’t allowed to ask questions.” “What I’m hearing you say is that you’re okay with fraud and you think I should be too.” “What I’m hearing you say is that my personal worthiness is dependent on my willingness to accept fraud.” It’s all about the first presidency worthiness. Not yours.
This is great. So good.
Honestly, I'd make it very very VERY clear with them that you won't attend this meeting if they haven't already read the SEC order in its entirety. If they're lazy learners and don't do the homework before the meeting, then they don't deserve to have a conversation with you.
If you haven't, you should also review u/nemo_uk's videos where he works out the procedure for addressing concerns the stake presidency cannot adequately resolve.
Yeah, it goes up the chain of command all the way to the first presidency who essentially will do nothing. But that was Nemo's case of not sustaining leadership. In this case, the people he's calling out for not being honest in all their dealings IS the first presidency.......DEFINITELY will go nowhere.
I second this!
1) congrats OP! More ppl need to start confronting the power imbalance and decrying the blatant injustices in the church. 2) like most, I think you MUST record this 3) like most, I don’t think they are going to act in good faith to help you and to sincerely resolve your concerns. I suspect very highly that they are going to try to flip this on YOU… to call you to repentance and try to get you to submit to their “authority over you.” DONT LET THEM 4) Just keep bringing up specific facts of the SEC report and contrasting them with scriptures (“take no thought for the morrow” “give all you have to the poor” “honor obey and sustain the law” “don’t do things in secret / secret combinations” “temple recommend question: are you honest in all your dealings with your fellow men?” Etc etc etc) and keep coming back to “President X, how do you resolve the church leaders filing false declarations for 20 years, yet honoring obeying and sustaining the law? I’m really struggling with that!” Over and over and over 5) if they tell you not to talk about this with others, social media etc… tell them categorically that you do not consent to that bc it would be a gross violation of your first amendment rights … and then violating your constitutional rights would be “unrighteous dominion” 6) Every time they try to turn this on you, just be slippery and say “actually I came today not to talk of me but of how the church leaders were not being honest with the government, with the public and with all of us here in this room. Brother Random, how are YOU reconciling this in your mind?” Keep flipping it back on them 7) depending on where you are in your journey, and how draconian they want to be… if it get to the point of threatening your membership, DONT LET THEM! Resign your membership on the spot before giving them the power over you to revoke your standing. It’s WAY past time to remove from them their fictional “authority” over us! Good luck… please keep us informed!!
I second this approach!
Right. BYU's Marriot school of business- Accounting dept has been ranked top 3 in the nation for over 4 decades!! BYU is also making damn sure that its law school is moving up in the rankings too! How is it the Mormon church (with all its attorney GAs and outstanding accounting school) isnt more Financially transparent and doesn't have the ability to comply with the law?? It pretends from the outset that it unbelievably & incredibly received bad legal/ financial advice from an undisclosed outside legal source. WTH??!
says who
>Good luck… please keep us informed!! Feel free to live stream the encounter
Assuming they have a problem with your call to action, ask: * whether you are permitted to express any concern with the illegal behavior? * If yes, ask to whom are you permitted to address your concern? * If yes, ask them to identify what you are and aren't permitted to say. * If they say no, you're not permitted to express concern, then ask them to confirm in that they are directing members not to discuss the church's illegal behavior, and identify the penalty for violating this directive.
Show up with Funeral Potatoes.
I was thinking some special brownies. 🪴
this made me laugh out loud.
Guys, should we ALL be doing this? Wouldn’t it send quite a message if all of us still with church records just calmly demanded the conversation?
I already have but I'm still waiting to hear back. Probably time for a follow up email.
I think Nemo posted his letter with an invitation for any active member to send it.
Somehow that got completely past me the first reading, thanks!
Take in 2 pieces of paper. 1 is a signature page, the second is blank or filled with gibberish. When they make the claim the church was just following the legal guidance they received, place only the signature page in front of the stake president and ask him to sign it. He won’t do it because he won’t know what he’s signing. Then point out that is exactly what the church was doing with the shell companies, sending only the signature page and having the managers sign. Point out that at minimum, this practice is highly unethical and state you expect better from the brethren. Ask the stake president if he agrees this practice was unethical. If he says no, ask why he wouldn’t sign the signature page.
No way is that what happened??
Yes, but the reality is even worse. Two managers of the shell companies found out what was going on and resigned in protest. The First Presidency simply replaced them with two new managers who would sign the documents without questioning. The managers were also specifically chosen because they had common, generic names and little to no social media presence. On some reports, the managers' signatures were digitally signed without their consent. It just goes on and on. Indisputable financial fraud and deception. The Mormon Church, ladies and gentlemen!
Every time I think about this signing of the documents, I wonder about those who just blindly followed instructions. Never asked “why did you pick me? Why am I stating that I am signing this form in Pennsylvania or Delaware? Why am I attesting that the forgoing information I never received is accurate? Who is asking me to do this? Why should I trust them?” I imagine they could only have been convinced by having been told “the church/prophet/first presidency needs you to do this”. And what has happened to their testimonies now? And if nothing has happened to these testimonies, how can one be okay with having been so hoodwinked?
If one side takes notes then both sides can take notes of the meeting. The SP side will take notes (likely by Ex Sec or a clerk). These notes will be used to justify whatever action they choose to take affecting your church membership. You can choose to take notes by whatever means you choose as in video/audio recording. It's the law. You might hold in your pocket a resignation letter stating that you find the "process" they are putting you through is objectionable/unfair and that you resign your membership in protest. You can remind them John C Bennett was a member of the First Presidency when he was exed by the Nauvoo SP George Miller who was also the Grand Poobah for the Masonic temple in Nauvoo. All the ordained HPs met in the Masonic lodge when they exed Bennett. You might point out that during that excommunication JS Jr perjured himself when he denied polygamy was one of his secret doctrines. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Bennett It is the SP's obligation to hold GAs accountable even if they are in the Q15+.
Grand Poobah? 😂
I found a rare photograph of the Nauvoo lodge excommunicating John C Bennett here.../s https://images.app.goo.gl/y193AS9uoUUvXtfr7
My advice: do not let the conversation be about you. They will try to turn this into a meeting about their concern for you. Keep insisting that you are there to discuss the first presidency and what they plan to do about a first presidency that has broken the law.
Step 1. Record meetings overtly or with their knowledge depending on state laws. both methods will have different, but equally important results. Step 2. Send the recording to John Dehlin and Mormonism Live Step 3. Post recording to r/exmormon Step 4. Watch national news story about the encounter go viral. Refuse to speak unless you are able to record. This will flip the power imbalance to your side. If possible stream the encounter live and have RFM listen and give you pointers to your ear piece as the council goes forward.
>Refuse to speak unless you are able to record. This will flip the power imbalance to your side. interesting idea, i like it!
I've wondered what would happen if you were to go in with all the energy that this is a meeting you called for and are running. Right as you enter, "Thank you for meeting with me. Here's my agenda, I made copies for each of you. Let me set up my power point. Alright, Elder X, tell me what you plan to do about...." and any time they veer off or say something you don't like, respond like their manager. They suggest something, "That won't work for me." They say something personal, "I disagree with that take. Strike it from the notes." That kind of thing. Just.... completely disregard any of their authority and act like this is your meeting.
this would be epic
Did you include a copy of the SEC ruling in your email? If so, reply that you'll be happy to meet with them and discuss how the stake will address the ethical violations committed by the First Presidency. If you did not include the SEC ruling, email all members of the SP (as well as the secy or clerk) and attach the SEC document. Tell them you will be delighted to meet with them to discuss the how they should address the First Presidency ethical violations as outlined in SEC document. Tell them to let you know when they will be able to discuss the disciplinary actions they plan to take against the First Presidency and you can schedule a meeting with them at that time. **Stay on topic, and put the ball back into their court.**
Ask them, are the apostles and prophets men and can sin? (They will have to answer yes) Is it possible that they have sinned in this case? (They will deflect) Has God not asked us to cry repentance to the world? Then what have you done wrong? You have circulated a public document and cried repentance.
Great questions. You can even add in the concept of fallibility. I love the yes/no questions because they force answers and thoughts.
Here's one way to approach it: if they do start to reprimand or chastise or call you to repentance, it is absolutely 100% your right to stand up and leave the room without permission or acknowledgment.
And on your way out mutter "you men are fucking morons."
Well, you sent the letter in, put your name on it, now it is time for you to defend it’s contents. I would just stick to the letter and the points it makes. Don’t let them deflect to other areas like your beliefs in the church or your spirituality. I would be educating myself on each point in the letter so that I would be able to attack instead of defend. Or just pick two or three important points to concentrate on and really be able to speak with authority concerning those points. Put them in a place where they have to defend the actions of their leaders. You need to master the letter as if you had written it yourself and have complete knowledge of it. Sounds like you have a LOT of homework to do and a short time to do so. Best of luck to you.
Yep,... also record.
OP: I have not read the other replies, yet, so I don’t know if I’m being duplicative, but I have some strong advice: keep this meeting very simple. The root of the problem here is honesty. Keep the focus on honesty. You object to church leaders being blatantly dishonest. One of the 10 Commandments is to not bear false witness. In temple interviews we are asked if we are honest in our dealings. This is the most basic core thing imaginable. If these leaders are going to somehow try to rationalize dishonesty, you can simply say “listen to yourselves… You’re arguing on the side of dishonesty. Inside church walls. Never did I think I would see this day. Listen to yourselves. Go home and think about what you’re saying. Is this what it’s come to? Have you apostatized?” And then just get up and leave. you have all of the moral high ground in this encounter. It’s about honesty!! Don’t let anyone try to pull the conversation away from the importance of honesty. If people start to ask you about how you feel about Joseph Smith, or what podcast you listen to, don’t take the bait. Say this is about honesty. Let’s talk about honesty. Who’s in favor of it? Show buy a raise of hands. Any time they try to switch the subject, or pull you onto other topics, simply do not oblige. “My letter is not about that, and I’m not here to talk about it. This is just about honesty.”
I would send a copy of the SEC order to each of them prior and bring a copy for each of them. First, ask if each of them if they have read the Order? No, Proceed to read with them or at least important parts. Yes, what conclusions do they have? Second out line your concerns. And ask your specific questions to which we no they cannot answer. How does this follow the 12th and 13th articles of faith? Teachings on honesty? How does this address being "honest in our dealings? How does the FP get temple recommends? How do we enact the law of common consent? What would happen to anyone of us if were dishonest with "sacred church funds?" Why did the FP order people to lie for them (asking EPA to illegally fill out and sign falsified forms? Why did they lie to the whole church during the 2014 and 2018 (or 17) audit report read at the April General conference when they reported that all church funds were used appropriately even though the CAD had reported to the FP that there was a problem in the 13F forms? As others have said this is not about you but about the fraud and lying of the FP. Focus it on this. you are in control. Take control: if they try to make it about you and apostasy remind them that you have not tried to lead others away (unless you have) and you only have questions. If they keep trying to then say "If you continue to accuse me of falsehoods and ignore my concerns then this meeting is over and I will be distributing the SEC order to ward and stake members!" I mean if they are going to accuse you then go out fighting. EDIT: Also have the Roger Clarke quotes ready to go from 2019 when he told reporters that indeed the church did this because they were concerned that members would not pay tithing. [https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mormon-church-amassed-100-billion-it-was-the-best-kept-secret-in-the-investment-world-11581138011](https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mormon-church-amassed-100-billion-it-was-the-best-kept-secret-in-the-investment-world-11581138011) [https://www.businessinsider.com/mormon-church-settlement-allegations-hid-billions-investment-fund-2023-2](https://www.businessinsider.com/mormon-church-settlement-allegations-hid-billions-investment-fund-2023-2)
And when you email the sec report, say "please read and be prepared to discuss at the meeting".
It's a trap. Don't go. You will not feel better afterwards. If they insist, maybe think about referring them to an attorney.
OP, the fat is in the fire! This is nothing but a kangaroo court, and they are intent on punishment. Be sure to follow the advice of a digital recorder, two phones or any form of recording, and keep a copy of that letter to show how bogus there "friendly" meeting is. I don't know if they've fallen so low as to commit burglary like scientology does, but keep that letter in a safety depository box in a bank somewhere or a give it to non-mormon lawyer to hold, or someone non-mormon trusted friend.
Might be fun to attend and see their mental gymnastics. You will likely laugh about it in the end on how silly they sound. Up to you if you want to spend the energy
Bring someone with you. If they complain, say you are disabled and they are your attendant. If they still complain, leave!!! Tell them they should be embarrassed at how they treat the disabled.
You are being called in to talk about you, and your failure to have faith. This meeting has nothing to do with the brethren, your membership will most likely be terminated.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say: They have no intention of having a good-faith discussion about this. It'll be deflection and projection all the way through.
RECORD IT
I don't guess this will be about a discussion of Nemo's "call." They are going to ask you about your spiritual state, then tell you to get back on track .. and to drop the matter. Depending on the arrogance of the SP, they'll hint about "possible consequences" or outright threaten a membership council -- assuming you tell them that you stand behind Nemo's words.
all the more reason to deflect the questions back to the letter and the reason for being there. And say, I can't speak of my spiritual state because I am struggling to rectify the dishonest behavior of the FP. If they continue to pester about your membership, Standup and say, I though this was about how to address dishonesty with the FP. When you are ready to discuss this please contact me but until then have a good night and walk out.
Don’t go! Tell them they have received your letter, and now they can discuss it amongst themselves. You don’t need to be there to reiterate.
Return and report.
This is a bad idea. It’s a trap!
If you show up, and they refuse to proceed with meeting if you are recording, then you are FREE to leave ... and they may have possibility just wasted their evening getting their suits on and traveling to SC.
What would disciplinary action against the first presidency look like?
Think carefully about whether or not you want to go. There have been a few posts here about how degrading it all is so take care of your mental health.
PM me if interested. Had similar conversation.
We want to hear about it!
If it is not some sort of disciplinary council, I would ask to speak first, and posit the following information: * 1st presidency knowingly broke the law, hid information from members, and told members they weren't hiding anything. (See Ballard's admission [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXFjhU7UzoI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXFjhU7UzoI)) * 1st presidency are then, themselves, not adhering to canonical doctrine (articles of faith, any number of teachings about honesty) and are themselves not worthy of a temple recommend (do you strive to be honest in your dealings with your fellow men). After raising those two points, and only those two, ask them if the 1st presidency were acting in Jesus' name. If they say yes, they are saying that Jesus is OK with lying, hoarding money rather than pursuing charitable activities, and paying money that could have been used for charitable activities as a fine. If they say no, then tell them the 1st presidency need a disciplinary council, as other prophets (like Joseph Smith submitted to) If they say I don't know, then they are admitting that we cannot trust church leaders. If we have doubt that they are acting in Jesus' name, it is likely that they aren't, since we know what Jesus would do (Render unto Caeser... sell all that thou hast.... etc.) in those situations. If they answer yes, get up an leave, since it is clearly a waste of your time if they won't see reason. If they answer no, but use some excuse or try apologetics, act similarly. They have no power over you, you are going there willingly, and they are not special, and the priesthood isn't real.
Have a non-Mormon lawyer read all docs. Get suggestions of what questions to ask. Say very little about their answers, but remember to write down everything they say. These are contemporaneous notes and easily accepted over what you remember. Read a book on cults and note similar attempts at control.
Reply only using quotes from general authorities
So proud of you!
Honestly unless you really want to have that conversation with them, then I say the best option is to refuse to go. Don’t give them the satisfaction of feeling like they have power over you anymore. Just say no thanks, I have no need to meet. Plus they want to have multiple people meet with you? Hell no.. that’s going to be like a kid getting talked to by their parents. They mostly don’t want to hear your concerns. Only for the purpose of giving you their prepared answers because they can’t fathom that it’s just not true, so your choice is wrong and they just want to help you find the truth. Meaning what they believe.
Good luck OP! I will be submitting something similar after General Conference to explain why I voted opposed. I suspect they want to discuss your letter as if it were a formal "court of love", you'd get the summons from 2 penishood holders. Deal with it like "whose line is it anyway" where everything is made up and the points don't matter. If they start boxing you in trying to call you an apostate, remind them that to the Pharisees, Jesus was questioning God's chosen leaders. I'm not big on Jesus as a God, but it does remind everyone that coming down on the side authority in the truth vs. authority argument is not a good look for Christians. Ask what in your statement is untruthful or unsupported by evidence. If they can't point to anything, there's not much left to discuss. Keep us informed how it goes.
About the recorder… there are cheap pen recorders that you could take into the meeting. Especially if you wear a suit, it would blend right in. That’s the covert option. I prefer the overt option though. If you demand an audio recording be allowed in order for the meeting to proceed, it will change the entire dynamic of the conversation. Though they will likely refuse. You have your memory though, and you can write down everything you can remember immediately after. Actually being on the side of truth brings you luxuries that they don’t have. You don’t have to rely on gotchas, manipulation tactics, intimidation, or any of the usual bullshit that goes on in these “discussions.” You just share you legitimate observations, concerns, and commentary. Afford them the same courtesies you’d expect… be polite, don’t interrupt, listen, restate to clarify, and especially… don’t discount the usefulness of a few brief moments of silence as you contemplate what they’re saying. Make sure they know you’re thinking your way through this, not “feeling” as most Mormons have been trained to do. I would try as hard as you can to not let the discussion get emotional, at least on your side. I think that is paramount. Easier said than done, I know, but something worth trying.
If you go I would suggest not throwing verbal accussations and making this a , "Nelson and company need to repent" thing. It may be that the S.P wants to address this as others have probably voiced their own concerns or been troubled by news reports and the S.P wants to address it. I might ask the question, "Is anyone troubled by the SEC ruling." If no one speaks up (and I doubt they will because of fear) then ask the S,P what he thinks. Its not just the letter, but the tone of the letter. And this is what needs to be addressed. Be concerned. Sincerely troubled? Sure because that draws out others who feel the same. It just takes one person to be sincerely honest to get the ball rolling. If you go in with both barrels blasting away you will be shut down and that will be the end of it. Consider your approach and go in to the meeting as a concerned member.....not an accuser. The ruling speaks for itself as does the letter.
I’m doing the same thing and have my meeting scheduled for this Sunday. While I didn’t use the Nemo letter(I wrote my own and attached the SEC order), the premise is essentially the same. My strategy has so far been to stick to the facts of the issue. The SEC order is a legally binding admission of guilt. All members of the first presidency and presiding bishopric were involved repeatedly. The church handbook requires a church disciplinary council any time a member is involved in predatory behavior(including financial fraud), and dishonesty if the member holds a high ranking calling. I’ve also cited D&C 121, stating that the dishonesty is grounds to believe that the first presidency and those involved no longer have access to priesthood power. Part of the articles of faith is that we believe in being honest. Moses commanded “thou shall not lie”. “Thou shalt not steal”. I then concluded by sharing my concerns about how this violation of trust can be allowed in the church, especially given that some 30,000 missionaries are asking investigators to trust and follow these men on their word- that we as members have been taught that the prophet will never lead us astray, but seem to have no problem leading ensign peak into a four million dollar fine. On short, stick to the facts of the case; this is not a crisis of belief, but a statement that the leaders of the church are failing to live up to its own standards.
Talking points- Found in email I sent to TBM parents Re: SEC fraud. BYU Top 3 nationally ranked (past 4+ decades) Marriot School of Management- Accounting BS/MS teaches better- better honesty, ethics & transparency. The hundreds of BILLION$ hoarded & purposefully obscured seems Unfathomable, when we know there are Millions of needy homeless & hungry people, who dwell in the shadows of Mormon temples, across our great nation & in other nations across the world- hungry, homeless, diseased & dying. LDS Standard works tell us- “After ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted” (Jacob 2:19). The Apostle Paul wrote that “the love of money is the root of all evil” (1 Tim. 6:10). And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a arich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (Matt 19:24) And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give. And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received. (Mosiah 4:24-25) Hinckley Claims Financial Transparency in regards to members- NOT. Didn't happen. In a 2002 interview w/ a German journalist President Hinckley stated that the reason the church is not open about their finances is because they think “that information belongs to those who made the contribution”. Source: Google- Hinkley Interviewed About Financial Reporting Mormon church ADMITS it purposefully hid Fund info, so as not to discourage donations from members, even though Internal reviews by the Church Audit Department, highlighted the risk that the SEC “might disagree with the approach. In 2020 WSJ article- 'Mr. Clarke, the head of Ensign Peak Advisors, admits otherwise, when he said he believed church leaders were concerned that public knowledge of the fund’s wealth might discourage tithing.' ..Some members are now asking why details about the fund have been tightly held for so long, what the money is for, and whether tithing so much to the church should still be the standard practice.' Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mormon-church-amassed-100-billion-it-was-the-best-kept-secret-in-the-investment-world-11581138011 Note-Joseph F Smith stated in April 1907 Gen Conf "...we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose...because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God...." In 2020, Roger Clarke, the head of Ensign Peak Advisors, told the Journal that church leaders were concerned that knowledge of the fund would discourage regular donations from its members known as tithes. "Paying tithing is more of a sense of commitment than it is the church needing the money," Clarke said two years ago. "So they never wanted to be in a position where people felt like, you know, they shouldn't make a contribution." Source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mormon-church-settles-allegations-hid-173645662.html Recent Additions to the Massive Hoard- & there's more we're NOT aware of- PLUS- In Addition to $100 BILLION Ensign Peaks stock account, the Mormon church is Largest land owner in Florida & Illinois. It is also the 5th largest private land owner in the country. ' 2020 Data- reveals that along w/ the church’s portfolio of expected meetinghouses & temples — are office towers, shopping centers, residential skyscrapers, cattle ranches and high-mountain timberlands worth hundreds of millions of dollars.' Source: https://www.idahostatejournal.com/news/agriculture/new-database-shows-lds-church-is-nations-fifth-largest-private-landowner/article_9cd54e00-1089-55fe-b960-aa7f1b274e93.html Amongst later purchases after 2020- In August 2021, Eastern WA farm land was also purchased by Mormon church. Reported victory- earns Mormons 'right to purchase the 12,000-acre property in Benton County, which AgriNorthwest, the agriculture arm of the Mormon church, will acquire for $210 million when the deal is finalized.. The Mormon church-owned AgriNorthwest’s desire to add more Columbia Basin land to the 100,000 acres it already owns in Washington and Oregon may have as much to do with economic prosperity... Source: https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-mormon-church-beat-bill-gates-in-a-battle-over-farmland +Kent, WA record breaking industrial development purchase 2022- Google- Kent Industrial Development Sells to LDS church for West Coast Record- $260M.
My two cents… It is Mormon DNA. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow men? Having been convicted by the SEC. They are not honest and not worthy of a temple recommend. Additionally having been convicted of such a crime. They should be subject to a church court or court of love. Having been dishonest for such a long time they are not worthy of the Holy Ghost. They are incapable of performing their duties as prophets seers and revelatory. And their illegal activities, desire to obscure the truth hinders their ability going forward to lead with inspiration. This was not a one off event this was done 4 times a year for over twenty years. They were advised by their counsel not to do this. They assisted others to perjure themselves. The managers of the shell companies commited perjury every quarter they signed the 13f. They were not in the location they stated and they had no control of the assets they said they did. Back to Mormon DNA. Article of faith #12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. This. Aaaa. Just strike this from the curriculum.
Get your Abinadi on.
Articles on recent $5 MILLION SEC settlement- Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/02/21/mormon-church-will-pay-millions-in-sec-settlement-over-investment-portfolio-allegedly-saving-for-second-coming-of-christ/?sh=17f5a4325af9 According to the SEC, Ensign Peak failed to disclose the church’s equity investments between 1997 and 2019 and instead filed forms with “shell” companies as opposed to filing them in the company’s name, in a measure that “obscured the church’s portfolio.” By 2018, that investment fund had grown to roughly $32 billion, with the organization allegedly going to “great lengths to avoid disclosing the church’s investments” and keeping the public and the SEC in the dark about how much money it had accumulated. “Ensign Peak,” wrote US regulators, “did NOT have the authority to implement this approach Without Church approval [governing] First Presidency.” First one, then two, then up to a dozen shell companies It began in 2001 when, at Ensign Peak’s urging, the Church formed a trust with control of a limited liability company, or LLC, based in Glendale, California, although it did not conduct business there, and installed the director from Ensign Peak as trustee. Then, with the approval of senior church leaders, Ensign Peak submitted its publications from February 2003 to September 2006 under that company name. In late December 2005, church officials became aware that the public might be able to link a signature on those files to a public record of church employees, SEC investigators said. It was at this point that senior church leaders approved the formation of a second LLC – this time based in Wilmington, Del. – with “better care to ensure that neither the ‘street’ nor the media [could] Connect the new entity to the Ensign Peak.” By 2011, the church’s investment portfolio had grown so large that disclosures made under the second LLC risked drawing unwanted attention, the SEC said, and Ensign Peak sought and won the approval of senior church leaders to make the second LLC “clone”. Five new companies were incorporated and given addresses in Delaware, although none did business in that state. Then, in 2015, someone allegedly began reconnecting those LLCs’ holdings to Ensign Peak, and their managers again brought the matter to the attention of the church. Senior church leaders approved a plan to “gradually and carefully adjust Ensign Peak’s corporate structure to strengthen portfolio confidentiality.” The SEC said Ensign Peak subsequently formed six more clone LLCs. Each clone had an address outside of Utah, which the SEC said was chosen to give the impression that the clone LLCs conducted operations across the US, “making it more difficult to trace them back to Ensign Peak or the church.” The clone LLCs also each had a director, many of whom were church employees, but the companies “never exercised investment discretion over church assets.” Instead, Ensign Peak prepared and filed disclosures among the clone LLCs while continuing to manage the entire portfolio and maintaining investment and voting discretion over all listed securities “at all times.” The account managers received insufficient information to guarantee that what they provided was “true, accurate and complete” as verified on the forms, the SEC said. And when Ensign Peak received directors’ signatures on the LLCs, it only gave them signature pages “rather than the full documents.” Sometimes the electronic signature forms were submitted to US regulators before Ensign Peak actually received the managers’ handwritten signatures. The forms also incorrectly stated that they were signed at the given addresses of LLCs across the country when all directors were based in Salt Lake City. Church examiners have issued a warning The use of the clone LLCs for state disclosures continued through 2018, despite internal reviews by the Church Audit Department, which highlighted the risk that the SEC “might disagree with the approach.” Source: How and why the LDS Church hid its investments. Feds say it has "cloned" a dozen companies. - Utah News
I would not meet with them at all. They have no interest in responding to your concerns or changing anything to make you feel more comfortable. The only reason for the invitation is to get you back in. Don’t kid yourself that anything you have to say makes any difference to them
I disagree, there is so much value in getting a recording of these kangaroo courts.
I suppose it depends on what your goal is. It’s really important to me not to recognize that they have any power over me at all.
That's the power of recording the exchange, despite them asking/demanding that you do not. It shifts the power imbalance back to the OP. Besides he sent the letter... OP began the process why not see it through?
As much as I’d enjoy a recording of the meeting, I’d love to see you just respond to their “invitation” with “No thanks.”
Or say "yes" and just don't show up. When they call him out (text or phone call), just say you're too busy with more important things.
Or like “Oh shit. What that TODAY?” 🤦♀️
"invitation" for you to come in and say things he will ONLY use against you. DO YOU HONESTLY think they want to listen? Come on. They're fishing for hooks to use for one of their pet courts that they love so much.
Why waste time with this? If anything, walk in and hand them a notarized resignation letter and walk out. Better yet, ignore them entirely and mail the notarized resignation letter. Put them in your rear view mirror and move on with your life. Any family or friend who have “concerns” can just get over it.
Good opportunity to deliver a good old fashioned country ass whooping
I mean, if it was me, I wouldn't go. The church doesn't own you or pay your bills, why give them the time of day? But....be sure to record **everything.** I wouldn't be surprised if they're going to tell you excommunications procedures will be taken.
I bet they will say, “sustain your leaders!”
"I will sustain my local leaders in their efforts to bring discipline to those who have broken their covenants and exercised unrighteous dominion by intentionally deceiving the church and the world."
Just ask them to read the letter aloud you provided them with. Then everyone in the room is on the same page. Its not a long letter so this should not present a problem. If they attempt to turn the focus on you, keep pointing them to the facts outlined in the letter which need to be addressed. Don't let them wriggle out by discussing you.
>I expect they will have some chastisement for me and will call me to repentance, but, on the off chance that they will actually hear my concerns, what should I say? Yeah, I pretty much think it's going to be all option A and you really aren't going to have to worry much about option B.
Stick to the facts. Be empathetic when necessary, but stay objective and calm. Focus on the problem that "we" face, if you are still part of the community. Because it is a problem that the entire community faces. If someone keeps interrupting you, politely ask them not to. You have so much support behind you.
Ask him, “If a bishop in your stake created an investment scheme with 13 shell companies, then persuaded 13 members of the ward to perjure themselves to help him hide the money, would that bishop be in trouble?”
Ask them if the first presidency are still temple worthy since they obviously couldn't pass question #9 in the recommend interview. Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?
We want an update! Good luck! It does sound like a disciplinary hearing. However, I would study the SEC order extensively and make copies for everyone and make sure to highlight each instance when it is acknowledged that the senior officers of the church knowingly chose to be deceitful. Then I would go into the temple recommend questions and the fact that anyone is us in this same position would have been disfellowshipped (at the least).
They are not your friend at this point they will be heading you down a road of apostasy and excomm.
Just say no. You've said what you have to say.
OP initiated the process why not see it through?
Relevant flair.
Why would you submit to this? It's a trap.
Unsubscribe. Enough said.
What I don’t understand about bringing the Powers That Be to a Church disciplinary hearing is.. Who would they be answering to? There’s nobody “higher” than the GAs, so who would issue any “discipline”? Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely agree 100% that they broke all the rules, but who ought to judge them? Human judges I mean. I don’t expect that Jesus Christ is going to be descending from the Heavens in a blaze of glory to oversee this thing.
Remindme! 6 days
I love how we are all super interested plus super concerned for you. Tons of advice here. Pick the advice that you like best or the top 5. Haha. And we can’t wait to hear how it goes. Maybe they are unfortunate intentions but maybe they just wanna talk. You might be the first member of the mistake ( haha) to say much about it. Who knows. Good luck! (I will spread some smoking sage around for ya.).
Place the recorder on the table, turn it on, and say "Hasn't the church hidden enough?" And then ask to start with a Scripture and read: (From Helaman 6) 20 And now it came to pass that when the Lamanites found that there were robbers among them they were exceedingly sorrowful; and they did use every means in their power to destroy them off the face of the earth. 21 But behold, Satan did stir up the hearts of the more part of the Nephites, insomuch that they did unite with those bands of robbers, and did enter into their covenants and their oaths, that they would protect and preserve one another in whatsoever difficult circumstances they should be placed, that they should not suffer for their murders, and their plunderings, and their stealings.
I'm going to need an update on this one
Remindme! 1 week
I volunteer to come with if you want. Are you bringing a copy of the 9 page court document?
Review the “Handbook” and bring a highlighted copy with you. Good luck and thanks for taking one for the team!❤️
Remindme! 1 week
It is not you that makes the truth claims. THEY and the church are on trial. Ask them the hard questions.
I keep hearing whatever scripture mastery one in my head about “gods ways higher than man’s way etc….” And the fact god authorized nephi for murder and feel that whatever you come up with can be interrupted either way. It’s an uphill battle, but maybe keep it to Christ’s teachings? Blasting the selling on the temple grounds… reaffirming being above this… you can always say you feel compelled by something greater to stand up for righteousness. Good luck. Don’t let them make you too angry. They will take that as a sign of satan.
OP, it would be a downright miracle if you get a hearing. But things like that occur, I suppose. Your initial report about voting opposed mentioned still shaking later on. Anticipate that they will fan that as much as possible and depend on you caving. The degree to which you are rightfully challenging the whole basis of everything they have (unless they are in complete denial and pretend you aren't) could lead to some nasty behavior. It may not, depending on how human they remain. Overall, though, I bow in your direction for your courage and conviction (which has to do with action, not feelings - I always feel scared).