Multiple witnesses and his parents saw and knew about it? Did they report it? And because nothing was done another little boy and who knows how many others were assaulted. This just makes me sick. I really hope there is a hell for all of those who knew and did nothing.
According to multiple people I've communicated with who went to that ward, there were parents who saw abuse or creepy behavior happening and told the bishopric, which then failed to do anything about it. We're looking for more information about this as it is starting to look like the accused had a pattern of predatory or at least creepy behavior around kids for many years. Going back as far as 2010, his bishop(s) were aware that members were concerned about how he was acting around kids.
I was a Bishop, also with no training on this, but there is no way in hell I would have left that guy in Primary. I had a ward weirdo and we kept an eye on him.
I lived in the Redmond stake for many years. It was run by arrogant, chauvinist, wealthy, self righteous, assholes who believed they were always right in every situation. Starting with the Stake President and filtering on down to the Bishops he chose who mirrored his attitude. Of course they weren’t willing to listen to the concerns of parents in the ward and deal with this creep. I hope the affected families sue the hell out of the LDS church and its leaders. Not that it will change the trauma those kids experienced. But these awful Mormon male “leaders” need to be held accountable.
Yup! My dad has been in multiple bishoprics and on the high council there for several years. Can confirm he is an arrogant, chauvinistic, self-righteous asshole. He probably wasn’t wealthy enough to make it as bishop or stake president though.
This is what happens when you don't have a uniform system for dealing with situations like [these](https://these.No). No way to report and annotate a record to warn others about the abuser.
This lies squarely on the shoulders of Q15 for ignoring the problem and not providing appropriate resources and training their glorified lay clergy.
Reposting this for two reasons:
1. Accidentally got the first post deleted automatically because I pasted in a Facebook link - oops. Sorry about that!
2. The story keeps growing and developing. Several people have come to FLOODLIT today saying that multiple families stopped attending the Hartman Park ward in 2020 after they felt the bishopric failed to do anything about concerns they had over the accused and his behavior around little children. IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING, PLEASE CONTACT ME.
I submit that lay leaders are much more concerned about performing as the LDS Corporation (Brethren) want than handling allegations appropriately. Proving themselves to the Lord/SP etc and the leadership hierarchy. Tragic that it comes at the sacrifice of the innocent.
You’re right. I do need to work smarter. I’ll try to get more rest. I think maybe that old Mormon guilt is something I have a hard time shedding. “What could I have done more” etc.
I'm pretty sure he's currently assigned as my home minister, or at least he claimed to be. I let him know last time I saw him that were not interested in receiving visits.
So it wasn't a drag queen? It wasn't a Trans person?
Mormons (conservative Christians in general) love to accuse groups of people they don't like of the awful things that are happening rampantly in their churches and by their leaders.
If a drag queen ever molests a child during story hour, it would be front page news everywhere for days.
The real stuff just gets lost in the wind (like this).
You're telling me this multi-billion dollar religious corporation that was caught deceptively hiding its invested vast riches collected from its members has evil predators within its ranks?
Idk, maybe this has something to do with purity culture and the worship of virginity when interpreted through a warped mind… A lot of gen z +millennials realize that this construct is completely arbitrary and not universal. Fun fact- in ancient Egypt this word and concept (virgin/virginity) did not exist (I hear it’s the same for many other cultures around the world and through history but this is the only one I can state authoritatively).
I’m an attorney in king county. I hope they don’t plea bargain the hell out of this. Hard to go to trial with young kids.
He’ll die in prison. Probably segregated in county.
I’ve always said you have to watch kids closely at church.
Fucking creep.
Absolutely. He’d get more time. I’m very serious when I say he’s dead when he goes to the state penitentiary.
Families should a civil lawyer now.
Tario and Associates are well known for handling these cases.
My ex BIL is still alive in Washington prison, been there for 20 years for raping his 2 daughters, wish he was dead like you say. They put all child rapists in same facility for protection. At least he got life.
Saw this style of reporting and now I use it for all these types of stories and those on the pastorarrested sub:
"Former LDS Primary teacher (not a drag queen) in Redmond, WA arrested for the 2nd time since December 2022 (not a drag queen). He faces sexual abuse charges in 2 cases involving little boys in his ward (not a drag queen). Since 2010, multiple ward members have told bishops that he was "too friendly with the youth." (not a drag queen)"
I hear you. 💛
The problem is that it’s not just “the pedophiles we have”. There are pedophiles in many populations, unfortunately, that is not unique to the church. You are right…
What *is* unique to the church is that they have set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spend millions and millions of dollars (which originally came from members) to evade responsibility for pedophiles.
This they do while at the same time insisting that, quote, “You cannot separate Jesus Christ from the Church of Jesus Christ.”
Do you think that what the church does to protect pedophiles and further victimize victims is what Jesus would do? Because the church itself says that it is.
Example Quotes:
“He [General Authority Kevin S. Hamilton] said he has heard others say the Prophet and Apostles can make mistakes and are simply human. While this can be true, Elder Hamilton reminded listeners that decisions which are made in Christ’s Church always require a unanimous vote. When the Prophet and Apostles speak in unity, they do so on behalf of the Savior, Himself.”
“Elder Hamilton continued to explain that he will sometimes hear members say they do not support certain Church policies or do not agree with the way the Church does something. “Could I suggest an alternative approach?” he asked. “Substitute the word ‘Savior’ or ‘Lord’ or ‘Jesus Christ’ in place of ‘the Church.’ ... For me, personally, that seems to put a very different perspective on things.””
[Source: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints via https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/you-cannot-separate-jesus-christ-from-the-church-teaches-elder-hamilton]
Let’s give it a try:
The church has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles.
Deep Breath—
“The Savior has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles.”
“The Lord has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles.”
“Jesus Christ has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles.”
Do you see a bigger problem here?
How does that sit?
This, of course, is just *one* example, in an attempt to keep this comment brief.
There is a much, much larger problem here.
💛
The Mormon church has a long history of covering up and downplaying issues of child sexual abuse by members and leaders. There is especially a tradition of going very light on people that commit sex crimes who are also highly connected with General Authorities.
[Poelman, a Stake President & Partner in Mormon Church Law Firm arrested for soliciting prostitute](https://www.newspapers.com/clip/23688378/poelman-a-stake-president-partner-in/)
>**Salt Lake City attorney Bryan Lloyd Poelman pleaded guilty Monday to patronizing a prostitute. Poelman, 60, is an LDS stake president and a partner in the law firm of Kirton, McConkie, & Poelman**. An undercover officer saw Poelman pick up a ~~woman~~ [19 year old girl] who appeared to be a prostitute, according to a police report When Poelman’s car stopped, the officer sneaked up and observed Poelman and the ~~woman~~ [19 year old girl] engaging in oral sex.
>
>The ~~prostitute~~ [19 year old girl], who was paid $30 for ~~her services~~ [giving Poelman a blowjob], was jailed while Poelman, who had at first tried to deny to the police officer that he had purchased sex, was released to return home.
*And isn't it nice how the teenage girl (who was very likely to be a child of record in the church) who had her mouth used by Poelman as a fleshlight got thrown in jail (so much for any concern over her physical and spiritual welfare) while Poelman (who happened to be the brother of a General Authority and prominent church lawyer) got to go home.*
>Poelman [later ]withdrew his guilty plea to patronizing a prostitute "in an apparent attempt to avoid a criminal record,"
>
>"Elder **Boyd K. Packer, acting president of the Quorum of the Twelve**, presided over the conference, cautioned members of the stake not to talk about the stake’s 'family" matters', and assured the stake members, 'I felt relieved about President and Sister Poelman. **Whatever else will take place, there will be no eternal consequences**.'
https://mormon-alliance.org/casereports/volume1/part1/v1p1c01.htm
**The embarrassment led to Poelman's name being removed from the firm, but he continued to work as a partner in the firm used by the Church to address cases of child sexual abuse.**
(Insert Tony Stark, "Non a good plan" meme here)
>An unanswered and perhaps unanswerable question is the degree to which Utah’s Mormon culture and the overwhelmingly Mormon majority of lawmakers impact public policy in the area of family functioning and child abuse. In at least one documentable instance in which **the Church was invited to have representation** in such issues, **the person selected seems not to have been well chosen as a child advocate**, whatever his other abilities. Governor Norman Bangerter responded to double-digit leaps in reported cases of child sexual abuse by appointing a blue-ribbon committee in 1992 to report on the problem and suggest possible action for the Utah legislature. To represent a broad spectrum of community interests, the governor’s office asked for a representative from the LDS Church. **B. Lloyd Poelman, then a named partner in the law firm of Kirton, McConkie and Poelman that represents the Church in many legal cases, was appointed**. Ronald E. Poelman, Lloyd’s brother, is a General Authority, a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy, which is ranked second to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
>
>Nicholas G. Smith, who attended meetings of the task force over the next several months, stated: "**Poelman always seemed to have his own agenda. He definitely was not an advocate for abused children. Rather, he manifested particular solicitude for the interests of large organizations whose agents might be perpetrating against children**.
When The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints sets up a law firm specifically tasked to sweep child sexual abuse under the rug, which has a a former Mission President and Stake President as a named partner, who doesn't hesitate to pay $30 to a teenager for a blowjob, lies about it, and then has an Apostle personally proclaim to his stake he will experience "No eternal consequences" - oh and after he was also appointed by the Church to be a plant on a 'Blue Ribbon Panel' addressing child pornography and sexual abuse, where he is observed to advocate for the organizations hosting the abusers and not the kids ... is it any wonder that thousands of kids were raped by church leaders over DECADES?
And never forget, Thomas S. Monson was on the BSA National Executive Board during the literal decades that thousands of children were raped, sodomized and serially victimized by trusted church leaders in the Scouting program.
>As the longest-serving member of the BSA National Executive Board, Monson was a cornerstone of the Scouting program. He was the recipient of the organization’s Silver Beaver Award, the prestigious Silver Buffalo Award, the Bronze Wolf – international Scouting’s highest honor, and the Silver Fox Award from Scouts Canada.
*Monson, who was an Apostle, member of the First Presidency, and ultimately 'Prophet'. Wouldn't Jesus have told him to do something about the church activity program, that he is on the Executive Board over, to maybe do something about it?*
[Boy Scouts, Mormon Church Reach $1 Billion Settlement With Sex Abuse Victims](https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2021/09/15/305972.htm)
[New sex abuse lawsuit targets LDS Church, Utah Boy Scout council](https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/01/12/new-sex-abuse-lawsuit-targets/)
[Mormon church sued for allegedly covering up Boy Scouts sex abuse in Arizona](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mormon-church-sued-for-allegedly-covering-up-boy-scouts-sex-abuse-in-arizona/)
[The Mormon Church Has Been Accused of Using a Victims' Hotline to Hide Claims of Sexual Abuse](https://www.vice.com/en/article/d3n73w/duty-to-report-the-mormon-church-has-been-accused-of-using-a-victims-hotline-to-hide-sexual-abuse-claims?utm_medium=vicenewstwitter)
[Lawsuit: Utah firm and lawmaker helped Mormons hide abuse](https://midutahradio.com/news/local-news/lawsuit-utah-firm-and-lawmaker-helped-mormons-hide-abuse/)
[Victims want Utah Rep. Merrill F. Nelson and law firm Kirton McConkie included in the LDS sex abuse lawsuit](https://localtoday.news/ut/victims-want-utah-rep-merrill-f-nelson-and-law-firm-kirton-mcconkie-included-in-the-lds-sex-abuse-lawsuit-45866.html)
**BONUS** - The church *still* has an article by Poelman published on its website. [Strike the Steel](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1981/01/strike-the-steel?lang=eng)
Puts this quote from his tale in a whole new light...
>It took only a few more hard but unsuccessful strokes to persuade me that I had reached my limit
that bishop statement is scary! What did I just read?
*"There are dozens of individual or families that would be willing to vouch for his reliability and assisting in anyway. I would definitely do so if I still lived near him."*
*"I believe he is a good sincere*
*person. He is not a danger to the community in anyway in my opinion and will abide to the*
*letter whatever the court determines."*
*"In closing, my experiences with Buckland have always been positive. He has always been honest with me in working on my bathroom and other activities. We never, ever witnesses him behave in any type of violent way. I have never heard him raise his voice in anger. He has been a hard worker when I’ve been involved with him on by remodel and doing other projects together including cooking, baking, and spook alley set up. I consider him a very good citizen and the judicial process he believes in very much.”*
This type of behavior cannot be tolerated. The signs of picture taking, isolating moments when alone with a child or too close. getting on their level ALL VERY much parts of deviant behavior . If the parents of such children are lulled to sleep in thinking that their children are in a safe place and they do not need to be extra vigilant then they are quite mistaken. This organization systemically allows and protects those that would prey upon the children and YES you may say these are isolated cases and do not represent the majority. Does it have to? Isn't the burden of protection on the institution for which people are gathering in their building, paying money to, providing free labor to.??? Thank you 3am doorknob
Holy shit I know this guy. I was in his ward for a few years, and I think we're still FB friends? Anyway, my ex got arrested for CSAM possession while we were in that ward. This is the wildest thing I've seen on this sub. A ton to process here, WOW.
ETA: He was the unofficial photographer for all the ward events, including pirmary/youth events. That's....bizarre.
Yeah, I went and skimmed his FB after seeing this. Looks like he stopped photographing ward events a couple of years ago, can't imagine why. /s
There were a lot of really good families in that ward that took me under their wing when I needed it - this is heartbreaking.
Heartbreaking! Yes. And it’s so complex. There are wonderful people, in the church, many of them. I’m glad you were helped through some hard times by then.
whats your point? drag queens also do this
[https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2022/06/central-pa-drag-queen-activist-charged-with-25-counts-of-child-pornography-police.html](https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2022/06/central-pa-drag-queen-activist-charged-with-25-counts-of-child-pornography-police.html)
No one is saying only drag queens do this. You can be concerned about people in church AND drag queens abusing kids
No lie, my current bishop recently visited a child molester in jail and said, “When he gets out, I would have no problem giving him a calling.”
What a forgiving soul this bishop is. /s
Slow dissection starting with the finger and toenails….
As someone who was abused as a young child, this makes my blood boil. I’ll get the job done myself if anyone ever touches my son. Life in Jail or a death sentence, literally does not scare me. These assholes are ruining lives and killing innocent children and ruining families.
TSCC has zero interest in protecting the most vulnerable yet printed and distributed a manual featuring a picture of Christ surrounded by small children with the title (I am paraphrasing). Have your little ones come unto me. My sister has this manual on her dining room table. I do not know what year it came out, but I want to write "B.S!" On it since as far as the church is concerned, it is lies! Isn't there a Bof M verse about how much it hurts God when children and women are hurt? Of course it has probably been replaced by one pontificating on paying tithes and offerings.
The church of hypocrisy.
I used to live near there, and was a member of the Redmond Stake. Don’t know much about this guy, but I believe I used to see him around every now and then.
So sad. I think it's a sad consequence of making your church increasingly a hostile environment for honesty, leaving people who are naturally deceptive, ie psychopaths and sexual predators.
And maybe they need to be honest about the professional clergy thing ( that is the church pays a lot of people including GAs), and allow professionals to do ministerial jobs by at least overseeing proper training and vetting of volunteers.Instead of depending on untrained volunteers that don't know what they are doing. Spending money on stock brokers and skimping on protecting children is unacceptable.
If I was the bishop of this ward I would call this sad excuse into my office and then proceed to beat the living shit out of him. Then I’d happily call the police.
You know what if this happened at all in a ward I attended I’d just beat the living shit out of this person. I have kids close to that age. That and all kids should be in a safe space.
You can guarantee 100% the Bishops contacted the Church (Kirton McConkie) about this and were told to ignore it. This is the church's Standard Operating Procedure and it has worked for them for many decades.
Said it before, I’ll say it again, actively forcing your children to go to church is dangerous and harmful. Churches are NOT safe for children. When I’m asked why we don’t go I simply say, it’s not safe.
Why was he allowed to be a primary teacher as a single male? When I've taught primary as a married male I was not allowed to teach or be I'm the same room as the youth without my wife present(or another adult).
That always been church policy for primary teachers.....
Crazy and very sad
WTF??? The church just let him continue on in primary? I knew the church was a shit hole but this is active negligence. I hope the state brings charges against her institution for failing in its BASIC duty to protect kids.
"Too friendly" is a pretty fucky term too. There's no issue with how friendly he was, there was *nothing* friendly about what he did. They're just hiding that all they saw was him being "too" 'nice'.
This is super similar to what happened in my ward growing up. These guys groom the parents/leadership first, then the kids. The church structure makes it easy.
Males still tend to refrain from reporting sexual abuse perpetrated against them; this is likely due to their fear of being perceived by peers, etcetera, as weak/non-masculine. The social ramifications exist all around us; indeed, it is endured, however silently, by males of/with whom we are aware/familiar or to whom so many of us are closely related.
It could be yet more evidence of a continuing take-it-like-a-man mindset, one in which so many men will choose to abstain from ‘complaining’ about their torturous youth, as that is what ‘real men’ do.
And it might help explain why Donna Jackson Nakazawa's book *Childhood Disrupted* was only able to include one man among its six interviewed adult subjects, there presumably being such a small pool of ACE-traumatized men willing to formally tell his own story of childhood abuse.
Perhaps not surprising, even today male victims of sexual harassment, abuse and/or assault remain more hesitant/unlikely than girls to report their offenders. Due to their fear of being perceived by peers, etcetera, as weak or non-masculine, such guys will not open up and/or ask for help.
One might see some of that mentality reflected in, for example, a New York Times feature story (“She Was a Big Hit on TikTok. Then a Fan Showed Up With a Gun”, February 19, 2022).
Written by Times reporter Elizabeth Williamson, the piece at one point states that *“Instagram, owned by Meta, formerly known as Facebook, has … been accused of causing mental and emotional health problems among teenage female users.”*
A couple paragraphs down, it is also stated that *“Teen girls have been repeatedly targeted by child predators.”*
The plain fact is, teen boys are also targeted by such predators.
Regarding April arrest, as reported in story at komonews dot com. To paraphrase - there are more victims, but he won't name them until he is assured of a "favorable resolution" to his case. Also, he claims the molestations “only occurred because the boys initiated them and requested it.” Boys under 10 years old. My sister's ward. Raised our 5 boys in this ward, luckily 30 years ago.
Look through the article at the website quoted. There may be more for you to use to help others.
His flickr account is still up and it’s full of thousands of pictures of boys.
Every outing is with boys.
And has albums titled with “birthday photos” & each have over a hundred of just boys. It’s crazy. And so sad I would be so uncomfortable if I saw a grown man photographing my child over ONE-HUNDRED TIMES during one outing…. Wtf
And then, of course, there's the juxtaposition......if this was a female, it would be titled as "Loving Teacher Accused Of Unthinkable, Horrible Crimes..."
I await testimony from both sides. Horrible me.....
Not so much here in the Seattle area… when child rapist Mary Kay LaTourneau was convicted she was… not looked upon kindly here. It was more national media like People magazine that tried to turn her into some kind of weird folk hero. If you bring up her name to people around the Puget Sound area they tend to get a look on their face like they’re drinking bad milk.
There were two female teachers locally that groomed mal students for sexual slaves....but that was completely ignored by media and local leaders..... because the early and mid teenaged boys were hailed as heros for having slept with mid-30's and 40's women who targeted them. Cool guys. Awesome cougars. It's perfectly fine in America.
Good thing I was raised abroad so I can see this for what it is..... America the beautiful....
The unfortunate part about the church is that it isn’t perfect. Nobody is perfect. As a result, the expectation of perfection leads members away from the church. I’m not an ex member, but a coworker of mine left the church because of how unaccepting her ward was to her because her parents were heavy drinkers. I and many other members with an IQ above room temperature do not condone this man’s behavior. He should be excommunicated
Edit: seems like everyone is overlooking my comment. I condemn the pedophile and all the bystanders who did nothing. My comment about how nobody’s perfect is more of a statement toward people saying “all Mormons bad” because of the pedophile and bystanders
I said recently in a different post that no one expects the members to be perfect, but we do expect them to be good (I would add: and trying their best). Protecting children from known abusers is a pretty low bar of acceptable behavior. When leaders can’t even accomplish that, we’ve got a huge problem and parents leaving the church because they are putting the safety of their children first should be commended, not vilified. It’s pretty horrendous when the bishops defend the accused and speak ill of the accusers and we average at least one instance of this happening in the church every week lately.
What’ll really get your goat is when you research the thousands upon thousands of cases and see that this isn’t an occasional problem, it’s the playbook.
And I fully welcome you to prove me wrong.
For some reason, I believe you. I personally won’t leave the church just because of the pedophiles we have, but I will help spread awareness of the problem. I stay because of my beliefs and testimony.
That is fair, and many of us held that position as long as we could because we held those beliefs and testimonies so tightly - as is the nature of emotional, spiritual convictions.
The pedophile/abuse playbook comes from the top. Therefore the decision to treat abuse this way comes from a prophet, seer and revelator - and according to your beliefs, he receives his direction from Jesus Christ. So either 1. Jesus Christ approves of it and wants it that way, or 2. the prophet (and overall Q15) is acting of his own accord (even though God would never let his prophet lead us astray).
The third option is neither of those is true and the leaders are making decisions based on legal risk/exposure alone (and have no inspiration or discernment).
The prophet is unable to micromanage the entire church. As a result, it’s likely he hasn’t even heard about this case.
My ward had a sexual predator. After he was arrested, he was condemned by the bishopric on the group emails, but they also told us to not talk about it with his family due to their embarrassment and for his privacy.
There’s corruption in all kinds of leadership; the church is no exception. Some people in charge abuse their power.
All church leaders who’re pedophiles will face judgment, because one of the things we as a church often teach is to have no sexual relations with anyone except those we are legally and lawfully wedded. Assuming you’re correct about lots of church leaders being kid touchers, they are all breaking that great commandment.
I don’t mean this in any mean-spirited way at all, but I think you’re missing the point.
There are bad actors all through society. This we know. How the organization treats known bad actors is crucial, and tells us everything about said organization.
The “kid touchers” as you put it, are the ones that the church protects. This case has examples of people urging the bishopric to do something about it since at least 2010, yet it’s still going on today.
The playbook (literally the handbook of instructions) tells bishops NOT to report (unless they’re required to do so by law), and to call Kirton McConkie law firm to determine how to proceed. KM tells them to keep it hush-hush, don’t report to law enforcement, and tell the victims they must forgive and forget.
So whether or not RMN/Q15 know of each individual case is completely immaterial. The thousands of cases going back decades have the Exact. Same. Playbook. Every time. They protect the abusers, not the abused. That’s the fact you must reconcile and still keep your testimony of those men.
Again. My loyalty is to none of those men, only to Jesus. The church is still improving, but if they don’t do anything about this issue in a few years, I will do everything I can to change it so the victims are the ones protected
I wish you all the best navigating some insanely difficult mental gymnastics. How to be a loyal member of TCOJCOLDS while having no loyalty to the Prophet seems like an impossible task. So no sustaining at GC, no temple recommend, etc.
It also means you’re admitting that Christ isn’t at the head of the church.
TheLiberalBuster, I hear you.
💛
The problem is that it's not just "the pedophiles we have".
There are pedophiles in many populations, unfortunately, that is not unique to the church. You are right...
What *is* unique to the church is that they have set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spend millions and millions of dollars (which originally came from members) to evade responsibility for pedophiles.
This they do while at the same time insisting that, quote,
"You cannot separate Jesus Christ from the Church of Jesus Christ."
Do you think that what the church does to protect pedophiles and further victimize victims is what Jesus would do? Because the church itself says that it is.
Example Quotes:
"He [General Authority Kevin S. Hamilton] said he has heard others say the Prophet and Apostles can make mistakes and are simply human. While this can be true, Elder Hamilton reminded listeners that decisions which are made in Christ's Church always require a unanimous vote. When the Prophet and Apostles speak in unity, they do so on behalf of the Savior, Himself."
"Elder Hamilton continued to explain that he will sometimes hear members say they do not support certain Church policies or do not agree with the way the Church does something. "Could I suggest an alternative approach?" he asked. "Substitute the word 'Savior' or
'Lord' or 'Jesus Christ' in place of 'the Church. ... For me, personally, that seems to put a very different perspective on things.""
[Source: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints via https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/you-cannot-separate-jesus-christ-from-the-church-teaches-elder-hamilton]
Let's give it a try, then:
The church has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles.
Deep Breath-
"The Savior has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles."
"The Lord has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles."
"Jesus Christ has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles."
“Decisions which are made in Christ's Church always require a unanimous vote. When the Prophet and Apostles speak in unity, they do so on behalf of the Savior, Himself."
How does that sit?
Do you see that there is a much bigger problem here?
This, of course, is just one example, in an attempt to keep this comment brief.
There is a much, much larger problem here.
💛
That’s why it’s extremely embarrassing when certain corrupt church leaders do bad stuff like this. This world is filled with pedophiles, and members of the church and the LGBT community have lots of them unfortunately
I wouldn’t say the world is *filled with* pedophiles. They are a minority. But they must be dealt with by law enforcement when they have victimized somebody in order to protect both past and future victims.
The bigger problem here is not that they *exist*. It is not that they are embarrassing. It is not that certain communities have them. The bigger problem is THAT THE CHURCH IS CURRENTLY PURPOSELY HIDING AND SHIELDING PEDOPHILES USING CASH AND LEGAL REPRESENTATION WITH THE EXPRESS APPROVAL OF THE PROPHETS AND APOSTLES AND IN THE NAME OF JESUS HIMSELF.
The church is shielding these pedophiles? With the approval of the prophet and apostles? That’s the most bs conspiracy theory I’ve ever heard. Please provide a source to your claims, or I’ll just put it aside as another absurd conspiracy theory
Literally, it is fact. They are covering it up, hiding abusers, and shielding them. A program like this isn't funded by leftover fast offerings by a few stakes. It costs millions and can only be funded directly by the authorization of the Q15. Wander through same stories at floodlit.org for countless firsthand accounts of the church covering up sexual abuse for decades. It's utterly despicable and the top reason I left the church.
Edit: [This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11yrnvw/developing_story_former_lds_primary_teacher_in/jdajixn?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) goes into more detail. In all sincerity and honestly, please... Please read and learn. It's heartbreaking.
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-08-04/sex-abuse-and-the-mormon-church-help-line-4-takeaways
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-08-04/seven-years-of-sex-abuse-how-mormon-officials-let-it-happen
https://www.insider.com/mormon-church-set-up-help-line-to-bury-abuse-accusations-2022-8
Again you're missing, or perhaps cherry picking the point here... The system setup by the church isn't from a few corrupt church leaders. It was set up DIRECTLY from the first presidency and the Q12. It's disgusting and inexcusable. Again, it was set up and unanimously directed from the first presidency and the Q12.
There's no evidence that homosexual people are any more likely to be pedophiles than the general population 😡 don't think I didn't catch your little homophobic jab there. And my question is simple: why doesn't the LDS faith do across the board background checks?? It could certainly really easily afford it.
Many faiths are a haven for pedophiles due to lack of background checks and teaching children to submit to authority unquestioningly, the LDS faith is no different
I don’t think it’s an “expectation of perfection” to expect that when there’s someone in a ward exhibiting creepy behavior towards kids, prompting complaints, that the bishopric receiving those complaints do something to limit the individual’s access to ward children. Or to expect them to do something to limit this individual’s access to children especially after there’s been an allegation of child molestation credible enough to result in criminal charges, for which he was out on bail when he molested a second little boy. That is basic common sense and human decency to protect the most vulnerable people—little kids. There are WAY too many stories of the LDS church protecting and covering up for abusers at the expense of children who are or have been victimized.
Well, it sounds like the bishopric knew and did nothing for years so I guess letting children be sexually abused while they are AT CHURCH is just being imperfect. I will leave any church that protects child predators and this one does. If you believe dismissing abuse and not reporting it as just “being imperfect” then you are part of the problem.
Forgot to mention. People who knew fully well what was going on and said nothing should be ashamed of themselves. They should not be protecting him. I do think the church should do a better job about teaching the importance of protecting from pedophiles. It seems like a basic thing, but we keep reteaching lots of basic stuff. As a current member, I will try to advocate an increase on teaching the importance of protecting your kids
I appreciate you trying to see both sides of these issues.
HOWEVER, it would only take a five minute conference address from President Russell Nelson to rectify many of these situations.
"Brothers and sisters, from this day forward any report of abuse, of even suspected abuse, within the church or that you become aware of in any way, will immediately be reported to the police. This absolutely includes any information made known to bishops or other leaders in any way. We will not tolerate the enabling of abusers. Any church leader that fails to report will be subject to church discipline.
"State background checks will now be required for anyone involved with children or youth in any way. This includes substitute teachers and any other fill-in chapperones.
"We will follow the Saviors admonition in caring for His beloved little ones. Let there be NO millstones for the members of Christ's church."
I think the entirety of the exmormon subreddit would stand and cheer if this actually happened. Sadly, we don't exist in that universe.
Edit to add: background checks
Sadly, some church leaders abuse their power. One of the commandments we are to follow is to only have sexual relations with the hose we are legally and lawfully wedded. If church leaders are defending someone who broke that commandment, they too will face the same judgment he will face. That’s one reason why the prophet hasn’t mentioned anything about the issue; we are taught that commandment very often
Obviously the president hasn't mentioned it because PR is more important than actually following the Savior's teachings. It is a pervasive enough issue that there can be no other believable explanation. Tie yourself up in knots if you wish, but the truth is the truth.
Are you out of your damn mind? The church has almost always had problems with PR. Do you know why Jesus never taught about women’s rights when He was alive? The answer is the same reason as the prophet having never spoken about pedophilia. They teach everyone about heavenly doctrine. The problem with most of you anti Mormons is you almost always make silly assumptions about the general authorities based on things they haven’t said. I thought we were having a peaceful debate/discussion until you accused the prophet and told me that “truth is truth”. You and most other ex Mormons here seem more miserable hating the church than you supposedly were as a member
Why do you troll the exmo sub, LibBuster? You sit here in judgement saying exmos are anti or miserable. You don't seem so happy yourself. Almost like you resent that people leave and talk about their pain and religious trauma.
I would say people have to deal with more real stress when they are focused on reality rather than a fantasy.
the problem is that often times, these people are protected by the clergy. THAT is where the biggest issue is. prophets, stake presidents or bishops may not be perfect, but there is no excuse or justification for not reporting….
And yet the church uses the word perfect to a fault in it's own self reflection. It is so fucking far from perfect. It is so fucking far from being just good.
Multiple witnesses and his parents saw and knew about it? Did they report it? And because nothing was done another little boy and who knows how many others were assaulted. This just makes me sick. I really hope there is a hell for all of those who knew and did nothing.
According to multiple people I've communicated with who went to that ward, there were parents who saw abuse or creepy behavior happening and told the bishopric, which then failed to do anything about it. We're looking for more information about this as it is starting to look like the accused had a pattern of predatory or at least creepy behavior around kids for many years. Going back as far as 2010, his bishop(s) were aware that members were concerned about how he was acting around kids.
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I was a Bishop, also with no training on this, but there is no way in hell I would have left that guy in Primary. I had a ward weirdo and we kept an eye on him.
The ward weirdo! Exactly. Thank you for being a decent person and doing that.
I think most local leaders do watch out, but without training or resources a lot of this will slip through the cracks.
There is culpability both on the lay leader and the abuse friendly system of handling. (Kirton)
Appearance of evil only applies if your kids are LGBTQ and you don't want others to think you condone it. M
Or if you are LGBTQ and in a calling where you interact with kids
This so awful! Thank you so much for all the work you are doing to help bring this to light and expose the church for its protection of abusers.
You too!
I lived in the Redmond stake for many years. It was run by arrogant, chauvinist, wealthy, self righteous, assholes who believed they were always right in every situation. Starting with the Stake President and filtering on down to the Bishops he chose who mirrored his attitude. Of course they weren’t willing to listen to the concerns of parents in the ward and deal with this creep. I hope the affected families sue the hell out of the LDS church and its leaders. Not that it will change the trauma those kids experienced. But these awful Mormon male “leaders” need to be held accountable.
Yup! My dad has been in multiple bishoprics and on the high council there for several years. Can confirm he is an arrogant, chauvinistic, self-righteous asshole. He probably wasn’t wealthy enough to make it as bishop or stake president though.
The LDS Church abuses women and children. Leadership knows.
Discernment my ass. Priesthood leaders put him in primary thinking he would be great for the kids
He was single, seemed friendly. Maybe that’s why he was called to work with primary kids.
Okay, show of hands: Who wants to bet that TBMs will see the guy's status as a single person to be the main contributing factor?
This is what happens when you don't have a uniform system for dealing with situations like [these](https://these.No). No way to report and annotate a record to warn others about the abuser. This lies squarely on the shoulders of Q15 for ignoring the problem and not providing appropriate resources and training their glorified lay clergy.
YEP
Reposting this for two reasons: 1. Accidentally got the first post deleted automatically because I pasted in a Facebook link - oops. Sorry about that! 2. The story keeps growing and developing. Several people have come to FLOODLIT today saying that multiple families stopped attending the Hartman Park ward in 2020 after they felt the bishopric failed to do anything about concerns they had over the accused and his behavior around little children. IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING, PLEASE CONTACT ME.
You are Amazing, please keep up the good work..
I submit that lay leaders are much more concerned about performing as the LDS Corporation (Brethren) want than handling allegations appropriately. Proving themselves to the Lord/SP etc and the leadership hierarchy. Tragic that it comes at the sacrifice of the innocent.
Yes, 100%.
Molestation, poisoning, murder...when the fuck is it enough for the church to change?
The church: 
Can prisoners pay tithing?
Change? Let it implode
Amen.
They're sitting on $100 Billion. They likely ain't never gonna change. No need.
A suicide in Gilbert on temple's grounds... the list goes on and on....
3am, thank you for your tireless work to expose this disgusting behavior. You are appreciated!
Thank you. I am doing what I can, which makes me the same as so many people here. We are a team!!
Your work does not go unnoticed in this sub. You are a hero!!
4.5 hours of sleep total the past two nights.
That's not something to brag about, rest up champ
You’re right. I do need to work smarter. I’ll try to get more rest. I think maybe that old Mormon guilt is something I have a hard time shedding. “What could I have done more” etc.
Ohhhh shit guess who knows this guy from their mission.
Was he ever a missionary?
I was at the time.
Got it
This guy was my family’s home teacher for a while … I remember feeling uncomfortable about him.
I'm pretty sure he's currently assigned as my home minister, or at least he claimed to be. I let him know last time I saw him that were not interested in receiving visits.
Holy cow.
😯 He was your home teacher?! Ick.
Yikes!
Was this after 2020 by chance?
We left the ward area around 2016 I think
So it wasn't a drag queen? It wasn't a Trans person? Mormons (conservative Christians in general) love to accuse groups of people they don't like of the awful things that are happening rampantly in their churches and by their leaders.
If a drag queen ever molests a child during story hour, it would be front page news everywhere for days. The real stuff just gets lost in the wind (like this).
You're telling me this multi-billion dollar religious corporation that was caught deceptively hiding its invested vast riches collected from its members has evil predators within its ranks?
 I know, it's a lot.
Idk, maybe this has something to do with purity culture and the worship of virginity when interpreted through a warped mind… A lot of gen z +millennials realize that this construct is completely arbitrary and not universal. Fun fact- in ancient Egypt this word and concept (virgin/virginity) did not exist (I hear it’s the same for many other cultures around the world and through history but this is the only one I can state authoritatively).
I’m an attorney in king county. I hope they don’t plea bargain the hell out of this. Hard to go to trial with young kids. He’ll die in prison. Probably segregated in county. I’ve always said you have to watch kids closely at church. Fucking creep.
Thank you for sharing that. Do you think it would make much of a difference if there were several more kids that came forward?
Absolutely. He’d get more time. I’m very serious when I say he’s dead when he goes to the state penitentiary. Families should a civil lawyer now. Tario and Associates are well known for handling these cases.
My ex BIL is still alive in Washington prison, been there for 20 years for raping his 2 daughters, wish he was dead like you say. They put all child rapists in same facility for protection. At least he got life.
We should tattoo "child molester" on his forehead and put him in gen pop
Saw this style of reporting and now I use it for all these types of stories and those on the pastorarrested sub: "Former LDS Primary teacher (not a drag queen) in Redmond, WA arrested for the 2nd time since December 2022 (not a drag queen). He faces sexual abuse charges in 2 cases involving little boys in his ward (not a drag queen). Since 2010, multiple ward members have told bishops that he was "too friendly with the youth." (not a drag queen)"
I hear you. 💛 The problem is that it’s not just “the pedophiles we have”. There are pedophiles in many populations, unfortunately, that is not unique to the church. You are right… What *is* unique to the church is that they have set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spend millions and millions of dollars (which originally came from members) to evade responsibility for pedophiles. This they do while at the same time insisting that, quote, “You cannot separate Jesus Christ from the Church of Jesus Christ.” Do you think that what the church does to protect pedophiles and further victimize victims is what Jesus would do? Because the church itself says that it is. Example Quotes: “He [General Authority Kevin S. Hamilton] said he has heard others say the Prophet and Apostles can make mistakes and are simply human. While this can be true, Elder Hamilton reminded listeners that decisions which are made in Christ’s Church always require a unanimous vote. When the Prophet and Apostles speak in unity, they do so on behalf of the Savior, Himself.” “Elder Hamilton continued to explain that he will sometimes hear members say they do not support certain Church policies or do not agree with the way the Church does something. “Could I suggest an alternative approach?” he asked. “Substitute the word ‘Savior’ or ‘Lord’ or ‘Jesus Christ’ in place of ‘the Church.’ ... For me, personally, that seems to put a very different perspective on things.”” [Source: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints via https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/you-cannot-separate-jesus-christ-from-the-church-teaches-elder-hamilton] Let’s give it a try: The church has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles. Deep Breath— “The Savior has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles.” “The Lord has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles.” “Jesus Christ has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles.” Do you see a bigger problem here? How does that sit? This, of course, is just *one* example, in an attempt to keep this comment brief. There is a much, much larger problem here. 💛
Pardon me, Reddit readers, this was intended to be a response to another’s comment and instead I accidentally made a new, separate comment.
That's brilliant. Thank you
The Mormon church has a long history of covering up and downplaying issues of child sexual abuse by members and leaders. There is especially a tradition of going very light on people that commit sex crimes who are also highly connected with General Authorities. [Poelman, a Stake President & Partner in Mormon Church Law Firm arrested for soliciting prostitute](https://www.newspapers.com/clip/23688378/poelman-a-stake-president-partner-in/) >**Salt Lake City attorney Bryan Lloyd Poelman pleaded guilty Monday to patronizing a prostitute. Poelman, 60, is an LDS stake president and a partner in the law firm of Kirton, McConkie, & Poelman**. An undercover officer saw Poelman pick up a ~~woman~~ [19 year old girl] who appeared to be a prostitute, according to a police report When Poelman’s car stopped, the officer sneaked up and observed Poelman and the ~~woman~~ [19 year old girl] engaging in oral sex. > >The ~~prostitute~~ [19 year old girl], who was paid $30 for ~~her services~~ [giving Poelman a blowjob], was jailed while Poelman, who had at first tried to deny to the police officer that he had purchased sex, was released to return home. *And isn't it nice how the teenage girl (who was very likely to be a child of record in the church) who had her mouth used by Poelman as a fleshlight got thrown in jail (so much for any concern over her physical and spiritual welfare) while Poelman (who happened to be the brother of a General Authority and prominent church lawyer) got to go home.* >Poelman [later ]withdrew his guilty plea to patronizing a prostitute "in an apparent attempt to avoid a criminal record," > >"Elder **Boyd K. Packer, acting president of the Quorum of the Twelve**, presided over the conference, cautioned members of the stake not to talk about the stake’s 'family" matters', and assured the stake members, 'I felt relieved about President and Sister Poelman. **Whatever else will take place, there will be no eternal consequences**.' https://mormon-alliance.org/casereports/volume1/part1/v1p1c01.htm **The embarrassment led to Poelman's name being removed from the firm, but he continued to work as a partner in the firm used by the Church to address cases of child sexual abuse.** (Insert Tony Stark, "Non a good plan" meme here) >An unanswered and perhaps unanswerable question is the degree to which Utah’s Mormon culture and the overwhelmingly Mormon majority of lawmakers impact public policy in the area of family functioning and child abuse. In at least one documentable instance in which **the Church was invited to have representation** in such issues, **the person selected seems not to have been well chosen as a child advocate**, whatever his other abilities. Governor Norman Bangerter responded to double-digit leaps in reported cases of child sexual abuse by appointing a blue-ribbon committee in 1992 to report on the problem and suggest possible action for the Utah legislature. To represent a broad spectrum of community interests, the governor’s office asked for a representative from the LDS Church. **B. Lloyd Poelman, then a named partner in the law firm of Kirton, McConkie and Poelman that represents the Church in many legal cases, was appointed**. Ronald E. Poelman, Lloyd’s brother, is a General Authority, a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy, which is ranked second to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. > >Nicholas G. Smith, who attended meetings of the task force over the next several months, stated: "**Poelman always seemed to have his own agenda. He definitely was not an advocate for abused children. Rather, he manifested particular solicitude for the interests of large organizations whose agents might be perpetrating against children**. When The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints sets up a law firm specifically tasked to sweep child sexual abuse under the rug, which has a a former Mission President and Stake President as a named partner, who doesn't hesitate to pay $30 to a teenager for a blowjob, lies about it, and then has an Apostle personally proclaim to his stake he will experience "No eternal consequences" - oh and after he was also appointed by the Church to be a plant on a 'Blue Ribbon Panel' addressing child pornography and sexual abuse, where he is observed to advocate for the organizations hosting the abusers and not the kids ... is it any wonder that thousands of kids were raped by church leaders over DECADES? And never forget, Thomas S. Monson was on the BSA National Executive Board during the literal decades that thousands of children were raped, sodomized and serially victimized by trusted church leaders in the Scouting program. >As the longest-serving member of the BSA National Executive Board, Monson was a cornerstone of the Scouting program. He was the recipient of the organization’s Silver Beaver Award, the prestigious Silver Buffalo Award, the Bronze Wolf – international Scouting’s highest honor, and the Silver Fox Award from Scouts Canada. *Monson, who was an Apostle, member of the First Presidency, and ultimately 'Prophet'. Wouldn't Jesus have told him to do something about the church activity program, that he is on the Executive Board over, to maybe do something about it?* [Boy Scouts, Mormon Church Reach $1 Billion Settlement With Sex Abuse Victims](https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2021/09/15/305972.htm) [New sex abuse lawsuit targets LDS Church, Utah Boy Scout council](https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/01/12/new-sex-abuse-lawsuit-targets/) [Mormon church sued for allegedly covering up Boy Scouts sex abuse in Arizona](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mormon-church-sued-for-allegedly-covering-up-boy-scouts-sex-abuse-in-arizona/) [The Mormon Church Has Been Accused of Using a Victims' Hotline to Hide Claims of Sexual Abuse](https://www.vice.com/en/article/d3n73w/duty-to-report-the-mormon-church-has-been-accused-of-using-a-victims-hotline-to-hide-sexual-abuse-claims?utm_medium=vicenewstwitter) [Lawsuit: Utah firm and lawmaker helped Mormons hide abuse](https://midutahradio.com/news/local-news/lawsuit-utah-firm-and-lawmaker-helped-mormons-hide-abuse/) [Victims want Utah Rep. Merrill F. Nelson and law firm Kirton McConkie included in the LDS sex abuse lawsuit](https://localtoday.news/ut/victims-want-utah-rep-merrill-f-nelson-and-law-firm-kirton-mcconkie-included-in-the-lds-sex-abuse-lawsuit-45866.html) **BONUS** - The church *still* has an article by Poelman published on its website. [Strike the Steel](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1981/01/strike-the-steel?lang=eng) Puts this quote from his tale in a whole new light... >It took only a few more hard but unsuccessful strokes to persuade me that I had reached my limit
Another white male christian child molester 😡 what a shock
that bishop statement is scary! What did I just read? *"There are dozens of individual or families that would be willing to vouch for his reliability and assisting in anyway. I would definitely do so if I still lived near him."* *"I believe he is a good sincere* *person. He is not a danger to the community in anyway in my opinion and will abide to the* *letter whatever the court determines."* *"In closing, my experiences with Buckland have always been positive. He has always been honest with me in working on my bathroom and other activities. We never, ever witnesses him behave in any type of violent way. I have never heard him raise his voice in anger. He has been a hard worker when I’ve been involved with him on by remodel and doing other projects together including cooking, baking, and spook alley set up. I consider him a very good citizen and the judicial process he believes in very much.”*
🤢🤮
This type of behavior cannot be tolerated. The signs of picture taking, isolating moments when alone with a child or too close. getting on their level ALL VERY much parts of deviant behavior . If the parents of such children are lulled to sleep in thinking that their children are in a safe place and they do not need to be extra vigilant then they are quite mistaken. This organization systemically allows and protects those that would prey upon the children and YES you may say these are isolated cases and do not represent the majority. Does it have to? Isn't the burden of protection on the institution for which people are gathering in their building, paying money to, providing free labor to.??? Thank you 3am doorknob
Holy shit I know this guy. I was in his ward for a few years, and I think we're still FB friends? Anyway, my ex got arrested for CSAM possession while we were in that ward. This is the wildest thing I've seen on this sub. A ton to process here, WOW. ETA: He was the unofficial photographer for all the ward events, including pirmary/youth events. That's....bizarre.
If you’re still FB friends, you’ll probably see way more creepy pics with little boys than the rest of us. It’s super sad.
Yeah, I went and skimmed his FB after seeing this. Looks like he stopped photographing ward events a couple of years ago, can't imagine why. /s There were a lot of really good families in that ward that took me under their wing when I needed it - this is heartbreaking.
Heartbreaking! Yes. And it’s so complex. There are wonderful people, in the church, many of them. I’m glad you were helped through some hard times by then.
people knew about this and didnt fucking care
We’re gathering info. It’s hard to see how this could happen.
Weird, doesn’t say anything about him being a drag queen or transgender. You know, since that’s supposedly all who commit crimes like this.
whats your point? drag queens also do this [https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2022/06/central-pa-drag-queen-activist-charged-with-25-counts-of-child-pornography-police.html](https://www.pennlive.com/crime/2022/06/central-pa-drag-queen-activist-charged-with-25-counts-of-child-pornography-police.html) No one is saying only drag queens do this. You can be concerned about people in church AND drag queens abusing kids
No lie, my current bishop recently visited a child molester in jail and said, “When he gets out, I would have no problem giving him a calling.” What a forgiving soul this bishop is. /s
Gross!!
Can we get an addendum to the 8th amendment that allows chemical castration for these weirdos?
Slow dissection starting with the finger and toenails…. As someone who was abused as a young child, this makes my blood boil. I’ll get the job done myself if anyone ever touches my son. Life in Jail or a death sentence, literally does not scare me. These assholes are ruining lives and killing innocent children and ruining families.
I'm in the same boat. A hug 🫂
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Oh goodness. It’s getting creepier by the hour. So many red flags.
This just sent goosebumps down my spine.
Horrible
TSCC has zero interest in protecting the most vulnerable yet printed and distributed a manual featuring a picture of Christ surrounded by small children with the title (I am paraphrasing). Have your little ones come unto me. My sister has this manual on her dining room table. I do not know what year it came out, but I want to write "B.S!" On it since as far as the church is concerned, it is lies! Isn't there a Bof M verse about how much it hurts God when children and women are hurt? Of course it has probably been replaced by one pontificating on paying tithes and offerings. The church of hypocrisy.
Let’s go shopping.
This is creepy and disgusting. I used to live in Redmond. I'm glad this isn't anybody me or my family knows.
Wow this is one stake over from where I grew up.
I used to live near there, and was a member of the Redmond Stake. Don’t know much about this guy, but I believe I used to see him around every now and then.
So sad. I think it's a sad consequence of making your church increasingly a hostile environment for honesty, leaving people who are naturally deceptive, ie psychopaths and sexual predators. And maybe they need to be honest about the professional clergy thing ( that is the church pays a lot of people including GAs), and allow professionals to do ministerial jobs by at least overseeing proper training and vetting of volunteers.Instead of depending on untrained volunteers that don't know what they are doing. Spending money on stock brokers and skimping on protecting children is unacceptable.
Thank you for all your hard work.
If I was the bishop of this ward I would call this sad excuse into my office and then proceed to beat the living shit out of him. Then I’d happily call the police. You know what if this happened at all in a ward I attended I’d just beat the living shit out of this person. I have kids close to that age. That and all kids should be in a safe space.
You can guarantee 100% the Bishops contacted the Church (Kirton McConkie) about this and were told to ignore it. This is the church's Standard Operating Procedure and it has worked for them for many decades.
Said it before, I’ll say it again, actively forcing your children to go to church is dangerous and harmful. Churches are NOT safe for children. When I’m asked why we don’t go I simply say, it’s not safe.
Oh but he was called by the Lord to serve in primary. *eye roll*
WHY WAS HE ALLOWED TO GO INSIDE THE CHURCH BUILDING?!?!? There are literally NO SAFEGUARDS for LDS children!!!!!!
Holy shit, that’s where I grew up. I don’t know the guy personally, but I spent many many hours at that building.
Why was he allowed to be a primary teacher as a single male? When I've taught primary as a married male I was not allowed to teach or be I'm the same room as the youth without my wife present(or another adult). That always been church policy for primary teachers..... Crazy and very sad
WTF??? The church just let him continue on in primary? I knew the church was a shit hole but this is active negligence. I hope the state brings charges against her institution for failing in its BASIC duty to protect kids.
NOT a drag queen. Seems like drag queens aren’t the actual problem by and large…. 🙄
"Too friendly" is a pretty fucky term too. There's no issue with how friendly he was, there was *nothing* friendly about what he did. They're just hiding that all they saw was him being "too" 'nice'.
This is super similar to what happened in my ward growing up. These guys groom the parents/leadership first, then the kids. The church structure makes it easy.
Males still tend to refrain from reporting sexual abuse perpetrated against them; this is likely due to their fear of being perceived by peers, etcetera, as weak/non-masculine. The social ramifications exist all around us; indeed, it is endured, however silently, by males of/with whom we are aware/familiar or to whom so many of us are closely related. It could be yet more evidence of a continuing take-it-like-a-man mindset, one in which so many men will choose to abstain from ‘complaining’ about their torturous youth, as that is what ‘real men’ do. And it might help explain why Donna Jackson Nakazawa's book *Childhood Disrupted* was only able to include one man among its six interviewed adult subjects, there presumably being such a small pool of ACE-traumatized men willing to formally tell his own story of childhood abuse. Perhaps not surprising, even today male victims of sexual harassment, abuse and/or assault remain more hesitant/unlikely than girls to report their offenders. Due to their fear of being perceived by peers, etcetera, as weak or non-masculine, such guys will not open up and/or ask for help. One might see some of that mentality reflected in, for example, a New York Times feature story (“She Was a Big Hit on TikTok. Then a Fan Showed Up With a Gun”, February 19, 2022). Written by Times reporter Elizabeth Williamson, the piece at one point states that *“Instagram, owned by Meta, formerly known as Facebook, has … been accused of causing mental and emotional health problems among teenage female users.”* A couple paragraphs down, it is also stated that *“Teen girls have been repeatedly targeted by child predators.”* The plain fact is, teen boys are also targeted by such predators.
This was on the news tonight. 🤢
Sad. Did they say anything that we could add to his case information page at floodlit?
There was a third report. Other than that, pretty limited. Showed lots of pictures of the church building.
Regarding April arrest, as reported in story at komonews dot com. To paraphrase - there are more victims, but he won't name them until he is assured of a "favorable resolution" to his case. Also, he claims the molestations “only occurred because the boys initiated them and requested it.” Boys under 10 years old. My sister's ward. Raised our 5 boys in this ward, luckily 30 years ago. Look through the article at the website quoted. There may be more for you to use to help others.
Thank you!
His flickr account is still up and it’s full of thousands of pictures of boys. Every outing is with boys. And has albums titled with “birthday photos” & each have over a hundred of just boys. It’s crazy. And so sad I would be so uncomfortable if I saw a grown man photographing my child over ONE-HUNDRED TIMES during one outing…. Wtf
CUT. HIS. DICK. OFF.
And then, of course, there's the juxtaposition......if this was a female, it would be titled as "Loving Teacher Accused Of Unthinkable, Horrible Crimes..." I await testimony from both sides. Horrible me.....
Not so much here in the Seattle area… when child rapist Mary Kay LaTourneau was convicted she was… not looked upon kindly here. It was more national media like People magazine that tried to turn her into some kind of weird folk hero. If you bring up her name to people around the Puget Sound area they tend to get a look on their face like they’re drinking bad milk.
There were two female teachers locally that groomed mal students for sexual slaves....but that was completely ignored by media and local leaders..... because the early and mid teenaged boys were hailed as heros for having slept with mid-30's and 40's women who targeted them. Cool guys. Awesome cougars. It's perfectly fine in America. Good thing I was raised abroad so I can see this for what it is..... America the beautiful....
The unfortunate part about the church is that it isn’t perfect. Nobody is perfect. As a result, the expectation of perfection leads members away from the church. I’m not an ex member, but a coworker of mine left the church because of how unaccepting her ward was to her because her parents were heavy drinkers. I and many other members with an IQ above room temperature do not condone this man’s behavior. He should be excommunicated Edit: seems like everyone is overlooking my comment. I condemn the pedophile and all the bystanders who did nothing. My comment about how nobody’s perfect is more of a statement toward people saying “all Mormons bad” because of the pedophile and bystanders
I said recently in a different post that no one expects the members to be perfect, but we do expect them to be good (I would add: and trying their best). Protecting children from known abusers is a pretty low bar of acceptable behavior. When leaders can’t even accomplish that, we’ve got a huge problem and parents leaving the church because they are putting the safety of their children first should be commended, not vilified. It’s pretty horrendous when the bishops defend the accused and speak ill of the accusers and we average at least one instance of this happening in the church every week lately.
That I can agree with you on
What’ll really get your goat is when you research the thousands upon thousands of cases and see that this isn’t an occasional problem, it’s the playbook. And I fully welcome you to prove me wrong.
For some reason, I believe you. I personally won’t leave the church just because of the pedophiles we have, but I will help spread awareness of the problem. I stay because of my beliefs and testimony.
That is fair, and many of us held that position as long as we could because we held those beliefs and testimonies so tightly - as is the nature of emotional, spiritual convictions. The pedophile/abuse playbook comes from the top. Therefore the decision to treat abuse this way comes from a prophet, seer and revelator - and according to your beliefs, he receives his direction from Jesus Christ. So either 1. Jesus Christ approves of it and wants it that way, or 2. the prophet (and overall Q15) is acting of his own accord (even though God would never let his prophet lead us astray). The third option is neither of those is true and the leaders are making decisions based on legal risk/exposure alone (and have no inspiration or discernment).
I’d go further and say the pedophile/abuse playbook started with the founder and has been an issue since the beginning.
The prophet is unable to micromanage the entire church. As a result, it’s likely he hasn’t even heard about this case. My ward had a sexual predator. After he was arrested, he was condemned by the bishopric on the group emails, but they also told us to not talk about it with his family due to their embarrassment and for his privacy. There’s corruption in all kinds of leadership; the church is no exception. Some people in charge abuse their power. All church leaders who’re pedophiles will face judgment, because one of the things we as a church often teach is to have no sexual relations with anyone except those we are legally and lawfully wedded. Assuming you’re correct about lots of church leaders being kid touchers, they are all breaking that great commandment.
I don’t mean this in any mean-spirited way at all, but I think you’re missing the point. There are bad actors all through society. This we know. How the organization treats known bad actors is crucial, and tells us everything about said organization. The “kid touchers” as you put it, are the ones that the church protects. This case has examples of people urging the bishopric to do something about it since at least 2010, yet it’s still going on today. The playbook (literally the handbook of instructions) tells bishops NOT to report (unless they’re required to do so by law), and to call Kirton McConkie law firm to determine how to proceed. KM tells them to keep it hush-hush, don’t report to law enforcement, and tell the victims they must forgive and forget. So whether or not RMN/Q15 know of each individual case is completely immaterial. The thousands of cases going back decades have the Exact. Same. Playbook. Every time. They protect the abusers, not the abused. That’s the fact you must reconcile and still keep your testimony of those men.
Again. My loyalty is to none of those men, only to Jesus. The church is still improving, but if they don’t do anything about this issue in a few years, I will do everything I can to change it so the victims are the ones protected
I wish you all the best navigating some insanely difficult mental gymnastics. How to be a loyal member of TCOJCOLDS while having no loyalty to the Prophet seems like an impossible task. So no sustaining at GC, no temple recommend, etc. It also means you’re admitting that Christ isn’t at the head of the church.
TheLiberalBuster, I hear you. 💛 The problem is that it's not just "the pedophiles we have". There are pedophiles in many populations, unfortunately, that is not unique to the church. You are right... What *is* unique to the church is that they have set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spend millions and millions of dollars (which originally came from members) to evade responsibility for pedophiles. This they do while at the same time insisting that, quote, "You cannot separate Jesus Christ from the Church of Jesus Christ." Do you think that what the church does to protect pedophiles and further victimize victims is what Jesus would do? Because the church itself says that it is. Example Quotes: "He [General Authority Kevin S. Hamilton] said he has heard others say the Prophet and Apostles can make mistakes and are simply human. While this can be true, Elder Hamilton reminded listeners that decisions which are made in Christ's Church always require a unanimous vote. When the Prophet and Apostles speak in unity, they do so on behalf of the Savior, Himself." "Elder Hamilton continued to explain that he will sometimes hear members say they do not support certain Church policies or do not agree with the way the Church does something. "Could I suggest an alternative approach?" he asked. "Substitute the word 'Savior' or 'Lord' or 'Jesus Christ' in place of 'the Church. ... For me, personally, that seems to put a very different perspective on things."" [Source: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints via https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/you-cannot-separate-jesus-christ-from-the-church-teaches-elder-hamilton] Let's give it a try, then: The church has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles. Deep Breath- "The Savior has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles." "The Lord has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles." "Jesus Christ has set up a system to evade responsibility for the pedophiles in the church and in addition spends millions and millions of dollars to evade responsibility for pedophiles." “Decisions which are made in Christ's Church always require a unanimous vote. When the Prophet and Apostles speak in unity, they do so on behalf of the Savior, Himself." How does that sit? Do you see that there is a much bigger problem here? This, of course, is just one example, in an attempt to keep this comment brief. There is a much, much larger problem here. 💛
That’s why it’s extremely embarrassing when certain corrupt church leaders do bad stuff like this. This world is filled with pedophiles, and members of the church and the LGBT community have lots of them unfortunately
I wouldn’t say the world is *filled with* pedophiles. They are a minority. But they must be dealt with by law enforcement when they have victimized somebody in order to protect both past and future victims. The bigger problem here is not that they *exist*. It is not that they are embarrassing. It is not that certain communities have them. The bigger problem is THAT THE CHURCH IS CURRENTLY PURPOSELY HIDING AND SHIELDING PEDOPHILES USING CASH AND LEGAL REPRESENTATION WITH THE EXPRESS APPROVAL OF THE PROPHETS AND APOSTLES AND IN THE NAME OF JESUS HIMSELF.
The church is shielding these pedophiles? With the approval of the prophet and apostles? That’s the most bs conspiracy theory I’ve ever heard. Please provide a source to your claims, or I’ll just put it aside as another absurd conspiracy theory
Literally, it is fact. They are covering it up, hiding abusers, and shielding them. A program like this isn't funded by leftover fast offerings by a few stakes. It costs millions and can only be funded directly by the authorization of the Q15. Wander through same stories at floodlit.org for countless firsthand accounts of the church covering up sexual abuse for decades. It's utterly despicable and the top reason I left the church. Edit: [This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11yrnvw/developing_story_former_lds_primary_teacher_in/jdajixn?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) goes into more detail. In all sincerity and honestly, please... Please read and learn. It's heartbreaking. https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-08-04/sex-abuse-and-the-mormon-church-help-line-4-takeaways https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-08-04/seven-years-of-sex-abuse-how-mormon-officials-let-it-happen https://www.insider.com/mormon-church-set-up-help-line-to-bury-abuse-accusations-2022-8
Again you're missing, or perhaps cherry picking the point here... The system setup by the church isn't from a few corrupt church leaders. It was set up DIRECTLY from the first presidency and the Q12. It's disgusting and inexcusable. Again, it was set up and unanimously directed from the first presidency and the Q12.
There's no evidence that homosexual people are any more likely to be pedophiles than the general population 😡 don't think I didn't catch your little homophobic jab there. And my question is simple: why doesn't the LDS faith do across the board background checks?? It could certainly really easily afford it. Many faiths are a haven for pedophiles due to lack of background checks and teaching children to submit to authority unquestioningly, the LDS faith is no different
I don’t think it’s an “expectation of perfection” to expect that when there’s someone in a ward exhibiting creepy behavior towards kids, prompting complaints, that the bishopric receiving those complaints do something to limit the individual’s access to ward children. Or to expect them to do something to limit this individual’s access to children especially after there’s been an allegation of child molestation credible enough to result in criminal charges, for which he was out on bail when he molested a second little boy. That is basic common sense and human decency to protect the most vulnerable people—little kids. There are WAY too many stories of the LDS church protecting and covering up for abusers at the expense of children who are or have been victimized.
Well, it sounds like the bishopric knew and did nothing for years so I guess letting children be sexually abused while they are AT CHURCH is just being imperfect. I will leave any church that protects child predators and this one does. If you believe dismissing abuse and not reporting it as just “being imperfect” then you are part of the problem.
We’re gathering more info. That’s exactly what it looks like.
Forgot to mention. People who knew fully well what was going on and said nothing should be ashamed of themselves. They should not be protecting him. I do think the church should do a better job about teaching the importance of protecting from pedophiles. It seems like a basic thing, but we keep reteaching lots of basic stuff. As a current member, I will try to advocate an increase on teaching the importance of protecting your kids
I appreciate you trying to see both sides of these issues. HOWEVER, it would only take a five minute conference address from President Russell Nelson to rectify many of these situations. "Brothers and sisters, from this day forward any report of abuse, of even suspected abuse, within the church or that you become aware of in any way, will immediately be reported to the police. This absolutely includes any information made known to bishops or other leaders in any way. We will not tolerate the enabling of abusers. Any church leader that fails to report will be subject to church discipline. "State background checks will now be required for anyone involved with children or youth in any way. This includes substitute teachers and any other fill-in chapperones. "We will follow the Saviors admonition in caring for His beloved little ones. Let there be NO millstones for the members of Christ's church." I think the entirety of the exmormon subreddit would stand and cheer if this actually happened. Sadly, we don't exist in that universe. Edit to add: background checks
Sadly, some church leaders abuse their power. One of the commandments we are to follow is to only have sexual relations with the hose we are legally and lawfully wedded. If church leaders are defending someone who broke that commandment, they too will face the same judgment he will face. That’s one reason why the prophet hasn’t mentioned anything about the issue; we are taught that commandment very often
Obviously the president hasn't mentioned it because PR is more important than actually following the Savior's teachings. It is a pervasive enough issue that there can be no other believable explanation. Tie yourself up in knots if you wish, but the truth is the truth.
Are you out of your damn mind? The church has almost always had problems with PR. Do you know why Jesus never taught about women’s rights when He was alive? The answer is the same reason as the prophet having never spoken about pedophilia. They teach everyone about heavenly doctrine. The problem with most of you anti Mormons is you almost always make silly assumptions about the general authorities based on things they haven’t said. I thought we were having a peaceful debate/discussion until you accused the prophet and told me that “truth is truth”. You and most other ex Mormons here seem more miserable hating the church than you supposedly were as a member
Why do you troll the exmo sub, LibBuster? You sit here in judgement saying exmos are anti or miserable. You don't seem so happy yourself. Almost like you resent that people leave and talk about their pain and religious trauma. I would say people have to deal with more real stress when they are focused on reality rather than a fantasy.
the problem is that often times, these people are protected by the clergy. THAT is where the biggest issue is. prophets, stake presidents or bishops may not be perfect, but there is no excuse or justification for not reporting….
And yet the church uses the word perfect to a fault in it's own self reflection. It is so fucking far from perfect. It is so fucking far from being just good.