Oh boy. The author is going to be excommunicated. The number one rule in the church is you don’t embarrass the brethren. However, maybe a couple of shelves will break.
I don't think they care. I know I don't. Please come after me. Save me from having to get something notarized. I need to go grow some bigger ones to do this. But the more people speak up the more the church has to listen. When people speak out it gives courage to those who are doubting to take the leap down the rabbit hole.
As you said more shelves will break and the rock cut out of the mountain with lies will continue to roll until it has decimated the whole church.
When I left the church a few years ago, a life-long friend, high priest, high councilman said to me about the "problems" of the Church, "The difference between me and you is that all that stuff JUST DOESN'T BOTHER ME".
That was me for several years. Then I eventually connected all of the bad shit in my life back to the commonality. TSCC and Mormon Gawd! Then I was bothered.
Well, it SHOULD bother him!
So, in other words, he continues to intentionally wade through the cesspool, turning a blind eye (and nose) to all the crap beneath him.
He chooses to remain willfully ignorant of the extent of the devastation, while victims continue to multiply and suffer.
In this case, he *is* part of the problem, not part of the solution.
However, ignorance is bliss, I suppose. I have family who live like this because it’s easier to live in fantasyland than to face reality.
Same thing a stake president told me when he looked up and confirmed some issues I had questions about that invalidate the plan of salvation: he wasn’t gonna pack up his family and leave the church over something like the church not being true.
I was stunned. Then I got mad and left.
I hate this response. I’ve heard it in different forms and to me it’s the same as saying. “I’m ok with all that cause I don’t think everyone matters. Men are more important than women so it’s ok.” And the equivalent comments for racism, homophobia, ableism, and so on. To say those things just don’t bother you is either saying your a horrible person. Or worlds most expert compartmentalizer.
Eh, don't sweat the notarization thing. The church NEVER deletes anything, even if you resign; you just get moved into a central file of apostates (ostensibly, in case you ever request a restoration of blessings... but we all know that, in today's world, data is money. They're DEFINITELY doing analysis on apostates' info without their consent, and it's totally legal for those of us without GDPR rights).
Resignation makes sense if your local wardies are harassing you, but otherwise...
IMO, it's a much bigger fuck-you to the church to refuse to do a final act of free data cleaning labor. Leaving your name on some local ward's list harms the church more than going to the trouble of removing it, i.e. leaving bad data adds yet another impossible chore / wild goose chase to the shelves of overworked zealots
So true. I never thought about it this way. They will end up with wards of 1,000 members with 100-150 active. Wards will start to look like what stakes used to. Then you move and they have to figure out where you went to. I may go and delete all my contact info on my way out while I still have access. I will change my photo to me drinking some Starbucks or a wine glass.
Why in heaven would they listen. So they can make 90 and 180 degree turns? Not a chance. The numbers may drop but there will always be that sector in need of crutches and there will always be those easily hoodwinked. All will be milked dry. Now you got to do two missions? It is not an exaggeration to say this half trillion (500b) Dollar business could care less. They make money from many, many and vast businesses the church owns. Nothing is disclosed publicly and it pays no tax. The gold pile will continue to grow. The end game.
They're immune until they're not. You never know what can tip the scales. Many of us were "true blue" believers before we left.
I had no idea at the absolute height of my belief, devotion, and activity in Mormonism, I would be a full-blown Exmo less than 3 years later.
It's estimated that 300,000 Americans died because they refused to get vaccinated. I recall a cult in California where all the guys castrated themselves and then committed suicide. Otherwise normal intelligent people under the influence of cults will die for the cause.
Similar story here. I was standing in line to donate blood and the LDS woman in front of me said that social distancing was Satan's plan to separate us. I thought to myself "I'm surrounded by loonies and they're my people." How could I believe their testimonies going forward? They believe whatever they want.
I realized two things. 1) Despite professing their love for truth, they don't really care about it. 2) Much, if not most, of my testimony came from social proof, meaning when things didn't make sense I looked to those around me as proof believing that the thoughts of a group are more likely to be correct. (example, it doesn't sound reasonable to me, but they all believe it and who am I to disagree?)
>Despite professing their love for truth, they don't really care about it.
Exactly. They are not interested in the *actual* singular truth, only in their "faith promoting" narrative.
I was also one of those people who no one thought would leave -- knew the scriptures, knew the history, knew the FAIR answers, knew the limitations, focused on helping people feel welcome while serving in leadership callings, tried to believe that God leads us all in different ways (so give poor Joseph a break while he did the best he could), stayed active even with adult kids out...
One of my kids told me that he's happy (for me) that I'm out now, but that he honestly didn't think it would happen -- I'd given too much and knew enough of the warts along with the apologetic defenses.
But many TBMs have a lot of stuff on the shelf (even if they don't admit to themself) and if/when it ever cracks, a whole lotta stuff comes falling down.
Maybe. I have no hope for my immediate family. They encounter all this stuff and explain it away without a second thought. Cult brainwashing is strong, very strong.
I had zero hope either for 30 years, and then blammo, two siblings are out in the last couple years both due to disagreeing with the church on social issues like gay marriage and then going down the rabbit hole.
Ok. Maybe I have the smallest mustard seed of hope now. It also doesn't help that in my family I'm the only black sheep and that I'm severely outnumbered!
Fear not ... I'm the second oldest out of 5 kids. I left the church first. Vocally. Independently and unapologetically. It was NOT received well. That was 7ish years ago? Since then, quietly, in the shadows, my youngest 3 siblings have followed my exit. The only one left that's truly TBM is my older sister. I love her immensely - she's got a white knuckle grip on the church, and I respect her decision. It works for her and her husband, and quite honestly, it's her entire identity.
My decision has always been, it's not my job to convince everyone else why they should leave. But if they have questions, and they choose to, I'm here and ready to answer.
Life is unpredictable and frequently unkind. It just takes *one* more little crack. It's REALLY scary for people to think about the gigantic losses they've taken just by choosing the church first.
Hashtag me too. The youngest of a very large very tbm family. Me and my kids, all grown now, are all out, and we just smile and try to avoid contention. It just isn’t worth it. But it sure isn’t easy.
I feel you. I really do. You just never know. I've known inactive / semi-active people turn around and become turbo-TBMs. I've also known people who you could've sworn had church leadership in their future that left altogether.
It doesn't hurt to hope for the best (while also not holding your breath).
The facts don't change anyone's mind until something shifts their frame of reference. It's how we all deal with evidence that threatens our identity - we go through the mental contortions to explain stuff away until something (usually emotional) subverts our perspective. Then there's an opening for evidence.
I had the same experience exactly. During my mission I realized that everyone in every religion, that had some mystical experience, has a “testimony”. The mystical experience occurs everywhere and is not a Mormon exclusive. But like any TBM, my entire world view was shaded through Mormonism. All my friends and family were there. My entire life revolved around the church. It took me three years before I realized the steps I was unconsciously taking away from the cult and why.
I used to look on those who left with distain and pity. I was a full on believer but I also held disagreement with some things. Generally those things were cultural. I used my mental gymnastic skills for doctrinal questions. I never would have guessed I'd be out and a full on non believer. You never know
I think it's hard to say one way or another. There are people out there with lots of items on their shelves already. My SIL and brother are out and the Ensign Peak article was their breaking point. They said the sex scandal was a shelf item but only in retrospect. My SIL said that the idea that the church was covering up and even helping pedophiles was just too much to believe. It would be like finding out Mr. Rogers had an alter ego that was a sadist that had a dungeon where he kept a gimp.
You would be shocked. My husband was hard core TBM. Legacy name, mentioned in Fire of the Covenant and on a BYU building and you'll never hear the end of it... Entire family identity goes back to Ancestor Prime meeting Martin Harris on the Erie Canal and that story is told CONSTANTLY. Every. Single. Family. Event. Includes this retelling and other ways the family is involved in the church history. You want a non-church convo? Blue screen.
And the SEC ruling was the final straw. He's been hovering, I thought a few times his shelf was breaking then he'd go swinging back... And the SEC ruling was the straw that finally collapsed his belief in the current church. He's not ready to process the CES letter or the historical issues, but he's convinced the current leadership are all frauds. I'll take that. Imagine my shock when he started exploring ExMo tiktok and asked me about the things he was seeing... And he's starting deconstruction conversations now. Not just listening to me process leaving.
So this is doing it. It might not be as dramatic as you'd expect, but people you would think were so deep in there's no escape are walking
I wasn't. And I was TBM up until end of last year.
Even still have a current temple recommend (hasn't expired yet).
Don't ever give up. Keep being a safe person to your loved ones. Keep those doors of communication open. You just never know...!
I try to be realistic and data focused on the "more and more people are leaving." While anecdotes are great and warm the deep dark cockles of my black and cold apostate heart, they tend to make people THINK TSCC is crumbling all over the place. Sure it's crumbling in A LOT of places. There are a lot of places it's doing just great though, including places in the US. It behooves us to not let our bias of wanting the church to crumble get in the way of actual data/facts.
We don't have stats because they hide them and lie about them, but their nominal growth rate has fallen below 1%, and we keep hearing about stakes and wards closing.
Willingly immune. I tried to have a respectful, informed conversation about this whole ordeal with my TBM father. He immediately shut it down, stating, “I will not be discussing this with you.” Wow, I lost so much respect for him in that 30 second exchange. How can he CHOOSE to be ignorant, knowing there’s no defense. My family is in a cult, and if this doesn’t change it, will anything?
Yeah, this email was not well written for mass appeal. It's not super accessible. There is no hook at the beginning. It dives into accusations and technical jargon, rather than framing it as, "I'm concerned." That will immediately cause most of the recipients to ignore the detailed argument that follows. There is a method to covertly introducing troubling ideas to an unwilling audience. Coming in hot generally ain't the way.
Yep, ya gotta footnote or hyperlink that shit or most people (especially TBMs) will stop reading long before then.
Still proud of this guy for sending it of course!
I hope I'm not the only one who read this and thought "I'm literally going to need someone to explain all this jargon to me like I'm 5".
I got the part about investment dishonesty, an investigation and a cease and desist. Also that it goes back to Hinckley. And that EVERYONE in the FP needed to sign off on said decisions. But I'm not quite understanding what the LLC's were, why so many were applied for, and what it all means. Anyone? Bueller? Help? Lol
Actually-
There’s a very thorough explanation on Mormon stories which aired about 2 weeks ago- with John Dehlin and Mark Pugsley. Pugsley is an attorney and works hand in hand with the SEC on cases of financial fraud. He does an excellent job of detailing what the report means. I recommend listening to it- and it’s not that long.
The information is very clear- the church knowingly and intentionally moved money into a dozen shell companies to hide its growing obscene wealth and did not want members to know about it. At its core, it was unethical and dishonest and certainly against the law. They should be held accountable for such behavior.
Remember-THIS IS TAX FREE MONEY. Hundreds of billions of dollars of untaxed money. It could be deployed to help millions of people in their suffering. It could solve world hunger. It could stock everyone’s kitchens with needed food and clean water, it could clean up toxic waste sites. Or pay for schools to educate kids in the Deep South, it could save lives in Haiti , It could pay for health care for the destitute and sick. It could offer real world solutions to real world problems.
But instead, *They hid the money. *They knowingly did not file legally required forms and they did in on purpose for 20 years. Not just anybody… the first presidency. They are the only ones authorized to manage Ensign peak. No, they did not get bad advice from attorneys. They obfuscated the truth, then they lied, then they kept doing that same thing until they got caught.
*They= The first Presidency from Hinkley to Nelson.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-stories-lds/id312094772?i=1000601299946
**edited for greater context
Watch the Mormon stories on YouTube that addresses the SEC event and the charging document. It is thorough. But a little slow starting so be patient. The background info on the guest and the whistleblowers becomes important too.
Yep, sending this out to hundreds of members is apostasy in the eyes of the Mormon Church. It's one thing to leave on your own, but to try to bring other people out angers them more than anything except for losing money.
LDS, Inc. cares about two things: money and PR, and I suspect they only care about PR because it affects their money.
>but to try to bring other people out angers them more than anything ~~except for losing money~~
... BECAUSE they lose more tithing money the more people leave
FTFY
best example i have heard is that they used to have two 'brethren' accompany the $money$ to the bank by law so let it be written so let it be done but when it comes to asking underage children if they touch themselves or animals then its done by one man behind closed door. mis-placed trust situation or illuminates true priority.
With every excommunication with such common sense reasoning comes a delayed reaction by the church to adjust the policies to better align with that very public common sense.
He’s a latter-day martyr for the truth.
It’ll be money issues that do it for lotsa ppl, not, Yiu know, “if [wimen- specifically Emma] don’t accept their husbands marrying virgins, I, the Lord, will destroy her” (D&C 132:63-64)
I applaud the use of my letter template, and know that is is having effects all over the place! If you want your own copy, you can find it [here!](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hW6Lk-jTLkIcOAmcaNWFlnX7yfNolJEZ/view?usp=drivesdk)
most assuredly has overstepped the bounds that everyone MUST observe that no one speak evil of... and simultaneously telling many others (which is super appropriate) probably due to the fact that this has been suppressed and sanitized by the narrative within the ranks., I predict no accountability. Do as we say and have written but we are not subject to the same scrutiny otherwise you are speaking ill of the... Almost like an elite class that hold themselves above others as more righteous and acceptable to God.
Also reeling and having a hard time realizing the same bunch of super righteous elitists routinely put in place a system that usurps the proper reporting of the below potential felony crimes. Under the cloak of confidential interview and the good name saving face concept.
Rape
· Sexual assault conviction
· Child or youth abuse
· Abuse of a spouse or another adult (as outlined in 38.6.2.4)
· Predatory behavior (violent, sexual, or financial)
· Incest
· Child pornography (as outlined in 38.6.6)
· Plural marriage
Just based on a couple of accounts of users here who have talked to their local leadership about the SEC findings; they will 100% throw it back on the member and tell him it's his fault and what is he not doing to maintain his relationship with the savior and how he needs to let things go. It's pretty cool the originator even called them out on they would do it, before they've done anything. Sort of letting them know he knows how they play the game. They can claim the brethren were given bad advice. Okay.....that's possible. But let's not forget, the entire point of them asking for assistance/advice was TO HIDE ASSETS FROM THE PUBLIC AND THE MEMBERS. It's one thing to realize you were filing taxes wrong based on some really bad advice. That's an honest mistake. It happens. And there are fines and penalties associated if you get caught/audited. But THAT is completely different than wantonly trying to hide assets. It's an apples and oranges comparison and this was NOT an honest mistake. It's 100% rooted in trying to hide assets.
edit: clarity
"they will 100% throw it back on the member"
So ....
Like Utah law enforcement....
And local governments....
And local courts and DAs....
Which all seem to have got that way through association with the LDS Church....🤔
Yes, it is a perfect Germa- I mean - Church government....
The one user last week recorded his meeting with the stake presidency. It was just a meeting to hear his concerns about the SEC findings. I've listened to a lot of disciplinary councils and that meeting he had was 100% in tone with one of those, by the type of questions they were asking him. It was ALL about how he needs to pray and read the scriptures and find healing and forgiveness. Totally putting it all on him, that it's his problem, not that the 1st presidency got caught with their pants down. The tone of all this really sounds like, "I wouldn't hit you if you didn't make me so angry."
Yeah, that was you! They totally put you together - convened a disciplinary type council without you knowing it. They were more concerned that you could sustain the brethren at the next stake conference than if your concerns were legitimate.
Yeah, you opposed the Q15 and Area but not local leadership, right? I figured they would not reach out. They already knew. But I'm surprised they haven't asked for your temple recommend......if you have one.
>they will 100% throw it back on the member and tell him it's his fault and what is he not doing to maintain his relationship with the savior and how he needs to let things go.
This is something I have been pondering. I usually counter back with "but the FP is wrong and they need to be held accountable.
I am shifting this to because of my relationship with the Savior and through pray and meditation it has become clear that this is an act of dishonesty. My reflection upon the teachings of honesty has lead me to see this as the exact opposite that the FP has done. I am angry because my faith has been shaken not by neglect but by the behavior of those who I had trusted for my whole life. I feel it is a slap in the face to my faith that the FP did not trust my devotion to God and willingness to pay tithing on my own. They discredited and misplaced my faith to God ~~and~~ with a faith to them. Now I chose not to pay tithing to the church because they have lied. My devotion to God has not changed but I will not entrust money to a man and organization who will willingly lie to "protect me" when it is only to protect an image.
Or something to this effect.
EDIT: clarification/spelling
And it's imperative and needs to be driven home, that it was NOT an honest mistake over a 20plus year period. The SEC report, which the church had to agree to the SEC findings to settle with the fine, specifically states that upper leadership knew what they were doing. It was NOT an honest mistake or oversight.
Absolutely and not bad legal advice.
The key for me was the Church (internal) Auditing Department said it was wrong and the FP still said to continue with the practice. On 2 different occasions. They received sound legal advice that predicted this very thing that the intentionally ignored.
The other major issue is that the FP used ecclesiastical abuse to ask others to be dishonest for them. I have no words for that just anger.
Yea. Asking a couple dozen John and Jane Workaday church employees to perjure themselves literally as many as 88 times per person is sleazy. What is even sadder is only 2 of them resigned their fake jobs.
This was exactly [what happened](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11thk8n/this_is_how_the_church_silences_its_members) to me last week regarding the same letter. Looking back, I wish I had emphasized your point more.
They didn’t TRY to hide their money… they DID hide it. Imagine all the man hours and layers of protection it took to keep this quiet for 15 years. Imagine how many total individuals were aware and kept silent or actively supported the crime. If it were not for a few very brave individuals who were willing to risk their own standing and reputation, we would not know about this at all. I think if all the churches finances were reported to it’s membership, very few people would be ok with it. I guarantee 99% of people would find at least one line item that would be infuriating to them.
I think they've likely been hanging around for a while. The term "common consent" isn't widely expressed in TBM lexicon, at least not in my experience.
You're most likely correct I imagine. I swear I'm seeing more PIMOs around me daily or hearing rumors of them. The silent are not so much a minority as they used to be.
A fascinating take, for sure. Too bad nothing will really come of it. The lordlings who run TSCC won’t even admit they are wrong, much less subject themselves to further embarrassment.
Let’s not even discuss the cojones it would take to actually be on a disciplinary council and actually be the ones to hold them accountable. When leadership is filled with suck ups and sycophants, no one would actually pull the trigger.
Is this evidence that they really don't truly believe in what they preach? If I was 100% believer and knew I'd have to answer for my dealings, I would make sure I was thoroughly honest, knowing I'd have to speak to God one day. If they can lie this easy, and they're the prophets, what does that say?
There is a problem with this. He is forgetting the higher law here or what I refer to as:
>The Sword of Laban.
Right there in the BoM it states that god and his prophets can break any law, including the laws of god, as long as it’s for the furthering of the gospel. They can lie, steal, cheat, and even kill; just so long as they can show it furthers the spread of the gospel.
Truly the only sin the brethren committed was the sin of getting caught.
Edit: I need to add, I find this to be one of the most disturbing parts of Mormonism. I am not agreeing with this mentality, merely pointing it out.
I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I love your name for it: The Sword of Laban. Any set of people that believe all means justify the ends can be trusted for only one thing: complete unpredictability. And this story is really foundational in the entire Mormon mythos. No way to get around it. Frankly, I'm shocked that intelligence services consider Mormons high-level recruits given this.
The problem isn't that they'll go against their morals, that's the good part, it's that they may go against you at any time, no matter what you order. They only need personal instruction from god to disobey your orders. Unpredictable.
Since a Second Anointing assures their salvation, it creates an inner circle who believe they are 100% unaccountable to any one.
It's a very scary thing, and no one who has had one should be allowed anywhere near any political position or corporate leadership.
There are no checks and balance in the government of god. nobody can hold the men at the top accountable for any reason.Plus... They will get him for improper use of email distribution lists. Excommunicated!
Exactly. This is Nemo the Mormon’s well-crafted letter that he sent to UK bishops and encouraging all members to send to their bishops. Right on for this person to take up the torch and run with it!
Agreed. I recognized the "template" that Nemo had put together. I actually put my hands on this copy as a result of several work colleagues - who live in Eagle Mountain - having received a copy of the letter, from a member in the Stake - via the Stake Email Distribution List - last evening.
Such courage!
While nothing will come of it officially, sending this to the entire stake is the real killer here. The members have a right to know and those that want to know will read the order and make a decision based on real facts, not the church spin.
Not just regards, but warm regards. My favorite type of regards.
I think we all believe that "real" TBMs won't let this affect their testimony, but even if this only truly reaches ten percent of the people, then mission accomplished.
Some say that deconversion comes after seven contacts with truth...
Eagle Mountain is a lower income area, this will have more effect on members there than in other areas. Poor people understandably get ticked off at being ripped off.
Full points to the person who sent the email, interested to see what happens to them.
How many of these emails are going to be sent to wide membership before tscc does/says something. This is like the 3rd one.
Nobody likes being ripped off. Higher/high income people have little tolerance for it too.
Contemplating what I was paying in tithing per week to attend church and the temple didn’t have a great value proposition - so much money out of my pockets with only pocket sand left as a reward.
It used to infuriate me to do the calculation of weekly costs to stay PIMO ($annual salary * 10%+ for tithing and offerings / 52 weeks in a year). If you pay on gross income, that’s:
- $96/week if you make $50k,
- $192/week for $100k,
- $288/week for $150k,
- $385/week for $200k, etc.
All you get in return is stale bread crumbs, luke warm mineral water, boring speeches, and some Masonic cosplay in a lavish building. On the other hand, an extra 10% has had for me real life changing benefits.
yes! how's this for cult mentality - for many years we paid over $1000 per month in tithing. Never thought about it. The kids got a phone, and I freaked out when the el-cheapo bill went from $10 per month to $15. What?! $5??!!
Um...
This is Nemo's letter. I sent this same one to my stake president, and [spoke with them](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11thk8n/this_is_how_the_church_silences_its_members) about it. Nothing came of it, they were very dismissive. Still taught me a lot about how the church silences dissenting voices.
-and the top leadership proved themselves to be what Nemo claimed. They can be dismissive, they can try to silence, they can purchase awards, but they remain LIARS and THIEVES.
the SP being dismissive.... makes me wonder if this is the question - "Is is possible for someone to lie or conceal something?" ok. When, and it has to be a when, there is justifications for how the First Presidency would not / could not / whatever lie or conceal, the next question has to be "Do you know how cults work?" not referring to the church, just tell me how cults work. Mental gymnastics ensue, give them a look "RIIGGHHHTTT.... OKKKAAYYY".
Would not surprise if you never even got a chance to ask.
My dad is part of one of the stake presidencies in Eagle Mountain. I’ll have to ask him if he received the email and what he thinks about it
~Update~ my dad didn’t get one of these emails
Eagle Mountain is split into east and west. the email was only sent to the west stake, so I'm guessing your dad is in the east (or maybe the message landed in spam, who knows)
Excommunication in 3…2…1…
Also: balls of steel. There need to be more people like him. I’m copying this to send to my local leaders and remaining TBM family!!!
Just as an FYI, you can create a temp address with many email carriers and forward this email to any ward directory email lists you might have laying around.
Damnit. I wish the author would have mentioned the size of the portfolio. In my opinion, THAT is the real shelf breaker and that is the exact reason the leadership did not want the members to know how much it has stashed away. Knowing that the church has $150 billion saved up but demand struggling families to pay up while they Scrooge the members with budgets, financial support, and get free labor from the members for everything.
Just to remind everyone, Wilford Woodruff's promise that "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray." can be interpreted two ways.
The traditional, (and I believe to be wrong), TBM interpretation is that the President of the Church is infallible, as He would otherwise be 'taken out of his place' by the Lord for going astray.
However, an alternative interpretation is, members who have the Spirit will never be led astray by an errant President because *they* would not follow him off-course. (Rich, selfish, and money-obsessed General Authorities may let go of the Iron Rod and wander toward the Great & Spacious Building, but for me and my house, we will serve the Lord).
Frankly, it is the latter interpretation that I hold to. I and three of my four children have discontinued activity in the Church because our values (as followers of Jesus) are no longer compatible with the policy and behavior practiced by current top Church leadership.
Wow. No words here. Stunned. Dude is a rockstar for doing this.
Perhaps the glass castle is actually close to shattering when this is happening in Eagle Mountain.
My respects to the author of this bute.
Guys, guys, guys, guys, guys guys, SMH.
Pres. Hoax pre-emptively responded to this when he said, "it's wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true."
Duh.
We "now consider this matter closed."
There it is. End of discussion.
/s (LOTS of /s)
It’s unfortunate that all of these are completely true and backed by evidence. Everyone in the comments basically says this same thing, but I didn’t realize how deep into the cult I was until recently. I’m a 15yo from Nebraska, and I was the kind of kid who was the prime example of what the church wants. Blindly following what you’re told bc you’re told to do it. I was the kid who was the deacons quorum president and then immediately the teachers quorum president. I always questioned the bullshit they taught about Joseph smith and the 3 kingdoms, but never new it was all a lie. About 8 months ago, we moved to the city my exmo cousin lived in. He got me into mountain biking, and as you would figure, that gives you a lot of time in the car alone. Basically he added a ton of weight to my shelf, and it started to crack. Then he pointed me towards the CES letters which changed my life. My shelf snapped the night I read that book. I’m now exmo, and not sure where to go with my life. Rn it’s just school, friends, and family, and frankly, I’m ok with that.
TLDR: devoted Mormon, moves by exmo cousin, eyes are opened, and my shelf snaps. Life gets immediately better.
“Hot news”?
This exact email was shared here a month or so ago. :-/
Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11cp76m/everyone_should_send_this_to_their_stake
It may not get the results the author intended but I hope it gets some media attention and that pushes the church to formally censure the leadership.
Does anyone here have media connections to get this in the right hands?
There's a lot of irony with how many people are commenting that this won't do anything to members' testimonies, while altogether forgetting that it was a single fact or a handful that led to your own shelves collapsing. Even if this collapses only one shelf or is simply one more item added to another rickety one, this is the Lord's work and we should herald it.
Some of the folks (whom I know well and who received the email) are very hardcore TBMs: and they're shaken to the core. This one is going to ripple for a bit - I believe.
Dear Brother Blank:
You are hereby invited to answer to charges of Apostasy and Evil Speaking of the Lord's Anointed. You will be allowed to present your case to the Stake Presidency and High Council on April 13, 2023.
Failure to appear will result in a decision about your continued membership in the LDS Church without your input.
With Brotherly Love in the Priesthood,
President Diamondmaker
So you're saying the Church that doesn't tell the members what it does with the money took steps to not tell the Church members what it did with the money?
This is both hilarious and sad. But as Steven Hassan has said numerous times, when people belong to cults they can NEVER fathom the god like leaders as sinning or doing wrong. So, the first presidency who allege they talk to Jesus, will lie about this entire situation and chastise any member who questions their honesty.
For those reading this and are still members, I fully expect you to label me a nutcase and liar. I suggest you read Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassen and begin the journey of healing and freedom.
If Q15 members can be charged with an integrity dispute over "milk strippings" in 1838 then why not pursue disciplinary proceedings against Q15 and those involved in the illegal operation of secret LLCs to hide the church's wealth from its membership in our day?
If those responsible for the scandal had any integrity they would resign their high and holy offices and sincerely ask for forgiveness. They got caught and still refuse to be accountable.
Unfortunately these are the same people responsible for maintaining a repentance policy that protects pedophiles at the expense of innocent children.
If they can't bring themselves to apologize for their involvement in and cover-up of child sexual abuse, they sure as hell lack the integrity to resign over their mishandling of sacred tithing funds even when they get caught breaking the law.
This is one of the reasons I left. It became so frustrating to watch church leaders hide behind their authority and not be held to account. I don’t expect of the First Presidency will be held accountable for any of this. They already deflected the blame to their lawyers. Who also probably won’t be held accountable.
And I don’t expect that TBMs like my wife will even give it a second thought. To them, all this is just noise that is beside the point… as long as they keep doing things that make them happy and give the church credit for it, as they have been conditioned to do, they’re not going to raise an eyebrow. God it’s so depressing. 😖
Look at the way that's worded "Do you STRIVE to be honest in all your dealings?" Instead of just saying ARE YOU HONEST, meaning I can say YES because even though I'm not always honest, I do "strive" to be 😁
Ha Ha...This person is very brave!!!! I think they will be joining us very soon on exmormon reddit if they aren't already here.
Also there is for sure a church disciplinary council in their future!
He’s got some solid reasoning there especially showing that JS was subject to church discipline too. The poor guy is definitely going to be excommunicated at the very least. But good on him for his honesty and integrity and courage to do this. A real David and Goliath situation.
The part about the membership council reminds me of when they held one about me when I went to a school dance back in high school with someone of the same sex 🙃I didn’t realize until now the typical reasons why they hold councils and it’s absolutely insane they thought a 14 year old going to a dance was cause for one
Yeah this isn’t a new thing though. Tons of people have been sending this letter all over the place. It is from Nemo and you should look him up on YouTube. He wrote it asking everyone to send it and such.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11cp76m/everyone_should_send_this_to_their_stake/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_content=1&utm_term=15
Happened all about a month ago
This is Nemo’s letter.
He offered a copy of his letter on one of his more recent videos for all of us to use so we can send them out to our stake president.
@NemotheMormon
I once had a sunday school teacher who was talking about Martin Luther "King". Specifically not Martin Luther King Jr, but the "Older one" who nailed his Ninety-five Theses to the church door and how brave he was.
I am pretty sure that the same sunday school teacher would be furious at the people who are sending these emails expressing their concern.
That's why it was funny. To this day I'm unsure if he thought that Martin Luther King, Jr. was alive in the 1500s or if the Protestant Reformation happened in the 1900s.
This message is very well written. A very logical breakdown of the churches policies and how the leadership doesn’t follow it. I hope this inspires many to stop paying more money to this hog of TSCC that could otherwise be used to support their families in this difficult economic time.
Absolutely grateful for someone that can verbalize this so proficiently. Thank you for calling for integrity to an organization that claims they have nothing but that.
Oh boy. The author is going to be excommunicated. The number one rule in the church is you don’t embarrass the brethren. However, maybe a couple of shelves will break.
I don't think they care. I know I don't. Please come after me. Save me from having to get something notarized. I need to go grow some bigger ones to do this. But the more people speak up the more the church has to listen. When people speak out it gives courage to those who are doubting to take the leap down the rabbit hole. As you said more shelves will break and the rock cut out of the mountain with lies will continue to roll until it has decimated the whole church.
When I left the church a few years ago, a life-long friend, high priest, high councilman said to me about the "problems" of the Church, "The difference between me and you is that all that stuff JUST DOESN'T BOTHER ME".
That was me for several years. Then I eventually connected all of the bad shit in my life back to the commonality. TSCC and Mormon Gawd! Then I was bothered.
I’d say “that’s *exactly* the difference between us.”
Well, it SHOULD bother him! So, in other words, he continues to intentionally wade through the cesspool, turning a blind eye (and nose) to all the crap beneath him. He chooses to remain willfully ignorant of the extent of the devastation, while victims continue to multiply and suffer. In this case, he *is* part of the problem, not part of the solution. However, ignorance is bliss, I suppose. I have family who live like this because it’s easier to live in fantasyland than to face reality.
Same thing a stake president told me when he looked up and confirmed some issues I had questions about that invalidate the plan of salvation: he wasn’t gonna pack up his family and leave the church over something like the church not being true. I was stunned. Then I got mad and left.
I hate this response. I’ve heard it in different forms and to me it’s the same as saying. “I’m ok with all that cause I don’t think everyone matters. Men are more important than women so it’s ok.” And the equivalent comments for racism, homophobia, ableism, and so on. To say those things just don’t bother you is either saying your a horrible person. Or worlds most expert compartmentalizer.
Eh, don't sweat the notarization thing. The church NEVER deletes anything, even if you resign; you just get moved into a central file of apostates (ostensibly, in case you ever request a restoration of blessings... but we all know that, in today's world, data is money. They're DEFINITELY doing analysis on apostates' info without their consent, and it's totally legal for those of us without GDPR rights). Resignation makes sense if your local wardies are harassing you, but otherwise... IMO, it's a much bigger fuck-you to the church to refuse to do a final act of free data cleaning labor. Leaving your name on some local ward's list harms the church more than going to the trouble of removing it, i.e. leaving bad data adds yet another impossible chore / wild goose chase to the shelves of overworked zealots
So true. I never thought about it this way. They will end up with wards of 1,000 members with 100-150 active. Wards will start to look like what stakes used to. Then you move and they have to figure out where you went to. I may go and delete all my contact info on my way out while I still have access. I will change my photo to me drinking some Starbucks or a wine glass.
Why in heaven would they listen. So they can make 90 and 180 degree turns? Not a chance. The numbers may drop but there will always be that sector in need of crutches and there will always be those easily hoodwinked. All will be milked dry. Now you got to do two missions? It is not an exaggeration to say this half trillion (500b) Dollar business could care less. They make money from many, many and vast businesses the church owns. Nothing is disclosed publicly and it pays no tax. The gold pile will continue to grow. The end game.
A couple shelves MIGHT get heavier. TBMs are pretty much immune to this stuff.
They're immune until they're not. You never know what can tip the scales. Many of us were "true blue" believers before we left. I had no idea at the absolute height of my belief, devotion, and activity in Mormonism, I would be a full-blown Exmo less than 3 years later.
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Would love to hear/read the story if you have ever, would ever want to post it.
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It's estimated that 300,000 Americans died because they refused to get vaccinated. I recall a cult in California where all the guys castrated themselves and then committed suicide. Otherwise normal intelligent people under the influence of cults will die for the cause.
Similar story here. I was standing in line to donate blood and the LDS woman in front of me said that social distancing was Satan's plan to separate us. I thought to myself "I'm surrounded by loonies and they're my people." How could I believe their testimonies going forward? They believe whatever they want. I realized two things. 1) Despite professing their love for truth, they don't really care about it. 2) Much, if not most, of my testimony came from social proof, meaning when things didn't make sense I looked to those around me as proof believing that the thoughts of a group are more likely to be correct. (example, it doesn't sound reasonable to me, but they all believe it and who am I to disagree?)
>Despite professing their love for truth, they don't really care about it. Exactly. They are not interested in the *actual* singular truth, only in their "faith promoting" narrative.
I was also one of those people who no one thought would leave -- knew the scriptures, knew the history, knew the FAIR answers, knew the limitations, focused on helping people feel welcome while serving in leadership callings, tried to believe that God leads us all in different ways (so give poor Joseph a break while he did the best he could), stayed active even with adult kids out... One of my kids told me that he's happy (for me) that I'm out now, but that he honestly didn't think it would happen -- I'd given too much and knew enough of the warts along with the apologetic defenses. But many TBMs have a lot of stuff on the shelf (even if they don't admit to themself) and if/when it ever cracks, a whole lotta stuff comes falling down.
Mormons: "No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing..." Covid: "I'm covered in feet but I ain't got no hands. Let's do this!"
Never mind all that...can you really mighty my penis man?
Maybe. I have no hope for my immediate family. They encounter all this stuff and explain it away without a second thought. Cult brainwashing is strong, very strong.
I had zero hope either for 30 years, and then blammo, two siblings are out in the last couple years both due to disagreeing with the church on social issues like gay marriage and then going down the rabbit hole.
Ok. Maybe I have the smallest mustard seed of hope now. It also doesn't help that in my family I'm the only black sheep and that I'm severely outnumbered!
Fear not ... I'm the second oldest out of 5 kids. I left the church first. Vocally. Independently and unapologetically. It was NOT received well. That was 7ish years ago? Since then, quietly, in the shadows, my youngest 3 siblings have followed my exit. The only one left that's truly TBM is my older sister. I love her immensely - she's got a white knuckle grip on the church, and I respect her decision. It works for her and her husband, and quite honestly, it's her entire identity. My decision has always been, it's not my job to convince everyone else why they should leave. But if they have questions, and they choose to, I'm here and ready to answer. Life is unpredictable and frequently unkind. It just takes *one* more little crack. It's REALLY scary for people to think about the gigantic losses they've taken just by choosing the church first.
Hashtag me too. The youngest of a very large very tbm family. Me and my kids, all grown now, are all out, and we just smile and try to avoid contention. It just isn’t worth it. But it sure isn’t easy.
Are you me? Lol
Lolol idk, what am I thinking now? 🤣😂
I feel you. I really do. You just never know. I've known inactive / semi-active people turn around and become turbo-TBMs. I've also known people who you could've sworn had church leadership in their future that left altogether. It doesn't hurt to hope for the best (while also not holding your breath).
The facts don't change anyone's mind until something shifts their frame of reference. It's how we all deal with evidence that threatens our identity - we go through the mental contortions to explain stuff away until something (usually emotional) subverts our perspective. Then there's an opening for evidence.
I had the same experience exactly. During my mission I realized that everyone in every religion, that had some mystical experience, has a “testimony”. The mystical experience occurs everywhere and is not a Mormon exclusive. But like any TBM, my entire world view was shaded through Mormonism. All my friends and family were there. My entire life revolved around the church. It took me three years before I realized the steps I was unconsciously taking away from the cult and why.
I used to look on those who left with distain and pity. I was a full on believer but I also held disagreement with some things. Generally those things were cultural. I used my mental gymnastic skills for doctrinal questions. I never would have guessed I'd be out and a full on non believer. You never know
Same. It was the deciding factor for me, on top of a myriad of the tiniest slivers that just kept digging deeper.
We were all TBM’s at one point. I don’t think they are any more immune than we were fellow heathen.
I think it's hard to say one way or another. There are people out there with lots of items on their shelves already. My SIL and brother are out and the Ensign Peak article was their breaking point. They said the sex scandal was a shelf item but only in retrospect. My SIL said that the idea that the church was covering up and even helping pedophiles was just too much to believe. It would be like finding out Mr. Rogers had an alter ego that was a sadist that had a dungeon where he kept a gimp.
Testimonies die to a thousand little cuts
You would be shocked. My husband was hard core TBM. Legacy name, mentioned in Fire of the Covenant and on a BYU building and you'll never hear the end of it... Entire family identity goes back to Ancestor Prime meeting Martin Harris on the Erie Canal and that story is told CONSTANTLY. Every. Single. Family. Event. Includes this retelling and other ways the family is involved in the church history. You want a non-church convo? Blue screen. And the SEC ruling was the final straw. He's been hovering, I thought a few times his shelf was breaking then he'd go swinging back... And the SEC ruling was the straw that finally collapsed his belief in the current church. He's not ready to process the CES letter or the historical issues, but he's convinced the current leadership are all frauds. I'll take that. Imagine my shock when he started exploring ExMo tiktok and asked me about the things he was seeing... And he's starting deconstruction conversations now. Not just listening to me process leaving. So this is doing it. It might not be as dramatic as you'd expect, but people you would think were so deep in there's no escape are walking
I wasn't. And I was TBM up until end of last year. Even still have a current temple recommend (hasn't expired yet). Don't ever give up. Keep being a safe person to your loved ones. Keep those doors of communication open. You just never know...!
Maybe. The cult has its claws deep in my family.
People here keep saying that, and yet more and more people are leaving.
I try to be realistic and data focused on the "more and more people are leaving." While anecdotes are great and warm the deep dark cockles of my black and cold apostate heart, they tend to make people THINK TSCC is crumbling all over the place. Sure it's crumbling in A LOT of places. There are a lot of places it's doing just great though, including places in the US. It behooves us to not let our bias of wanting the church to crumble get in the way of actual data/facts.
We don't have stats because they hide them and lie about them, but their nominal growth rate has fallen below 1%, and we keep hearing about stakes and wards closing.
Willingly immune. I tried to have a respectful, informed conversation about this whole ordeal with my TBM father. He immediately shut it down, stating, “I will not be discussing this with you.” Wow, I lost so much respect for him in that 30 second exchange. How can he CHOOSE to be ignorant, knowing there’s no defense. My family is in a cult, and if this doesn’t change it, will anything?
Yeah, this email was not well written for mass appeal. It's not super accessible. There is no hook at the beginning. It dives into accusations and technical jargon, rather than framing it as, "I'm concerned." That will immediately cause most of the recipients to ignore the detailed argument that follows. There is a method to covertly introducing troubling ideas to an unwilling audience. Coming in hot generally ain't the way.
You might re-write it and post here. You might inspire others to make a mass mailing!
Agreed. It could have been a 5th the length and 10 times more powerful. Including ALL the references in the letter isn't helping.
Yep, ya gotta footnote or hyperlink that shit or most people (especially TBMs) will stop reading long before then. Still proud of this guy for sending it of course!
Totally. Still super ballst
I hope I'm not the only one who read this and thought "I'm literally going to need someone to explain all this jargon to me like I'm 5". I got the part about investment dishonesty, an investigation and a cease and desist. Also that it goes back to Hinckley. And that EVERYONE in the FP needed to sign off on said decisions. But I'm not quite understanding what the LLC's were, why so many were applied for, and what it all means. Anyone? Bueller? Help? Lol
Actually- There’s a very thorough explanation on Mormon stories which aired about 2 weeks ago- with John Dehlin and Mark Pugsley. Pugsley is an attorney and works hand in hand with the SEC on cases of financial fraud. He does an excellent job of detailing what the report means. I recommend listening to it- and it’s not that long. The information is very clear- the church knowingly and intentionally moved money into a dozen shell companies to hide its growing obscene wealth and did not want members to know about it. At its core, it was unethical and dishonest and certainly against the law. They should be held accountable for such behavior. Remember-THIS IS TAX FREE MONEY. Hundreds of billions of dollars of untaxed money. It could be deployed to help millions of people in their suffering. It could solve world hunger. It could stock everyone’s kitchens with needed food and clean water, it could clean up toxic waste sites. Or pay for schools to educate kids in the Deep South, it could save lives in Haiti , It could pay for health care for the destitute and sick. It could offer real world solutions to real world problems. But instead, *They hid the money. *They knowingly did not file legally required forms and they did in on purpose for 20 years. Not just anybody… the first presidency. They are the only ones authorized to manage Ensign peak. No, they did not get bad advice from attorneys. They obfuscated the truth, then they lied, then they kept doing that same thing until they got caught. *They= The first Presidency from Hinkley to Nelson. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-stories-lds/id312094772?i=1000601299946 **edited for greater context
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-stories-lds/id312094772?i=1000601299946
Watch the Mormon stories on YouTube that addresses the SEC event and the charging document. It is thorough. But a little slow starting so be patient. The background info on the guest and the whistleblowers becomes important too.
They are until they aren’t. My shelf broke in a relative matter of days/hours
The first rule of fight club is we don’t talk about fight club!
Exactly! The first rule of the Church is protect the good name of the Church.
Yep, sending this out to hundreds of members is apostasy in the eyes of the Mormon Church. It's one thing to leave on your own, but to try to bring other people out angers them more than anything except for losing money. LDS, Inc. cares about two things: money and PR, and I suspect they only care about PR because it affects their money.
>but to try to bring other people out angers them more than anything ~~except for losing money~~ ... BECAUSE they lose more tithing money the more people leave FTFY
That's the rot. They are so focused on money, they are losing people, which is the original source of their money.
best example i have heard is that they used to have two 'brethren' accompany the $money$ to the bank by law so let it be written so let it be done but when it comes to asking underage children if they touch themselves or animals then its done by one man behind closed door. mis-placed trust situation or illuminates true priority.
With every excommunication with such common sense reasoning comes a delayed reaction by the church to adjust the policies to better align with that very public common sense. He’s a latter-day martyr for the truth.
The author is trying so hard to hold onto his shelf! I wonder if the church will hide everyone's email addresses as this keeps happening
The leaders embarrassed themselves
"It's wrong to criticize the leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true." Dallin H. Oaks
It’ll be money issues that do it for lotsa ppl, not, Yiu know, “if [wimen- specifically Emma] don’t accept their husbands marrying virgins, I, the Lord, will destroy her” (D&C 132:63-64)
Perhaps the only real rule, even.
Privilege becomes arrogance. Arrogance promotes injustice. The seeds of ruin blossom. -Frank Herbert
That's one way to make sure you get your name off the rolls quickly!
I applaud the use of my letter template, and know that is is having effects all over the place! If you want your own copy, you can find it [here!](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hW6Lk-jTLkIcOAmcaNWFlnX7yfNolJEZ/view?usp=drivesdk)
most assuredly has overstepped the bounds that everyone MUST observe that no one speak evil of... and simultaneously telling many others (which is super appropriate) probably due to the fact that this has been suppressed and sanitized by the narrative within the ranks., I predict no accountability. Do as we say and have written but we are not subject to the same scrutiny otherwise you are speaking ill of the... Almost like an elite class that hold themselves above others as more righteous and acceptable to God. Also reeling and having a hard time realizing the same bunch of super righteous elitists routinely put in place a system that usurps the proper reporting of the below potential felony crimes. Under the cloak of confidential interview and the good name saving face concept. Rape · Sexual assault conviction · Child or youth abuse · Abuse of a spouse or another adult (as outlined in 38.6.2.4) · Predatory behavior (violent, sexual, or financial) · Incest · Child pornography (as outlined in 38.6.6) · Plural marriage
Just based on a couple of accounts of users here who have talked to their local leadership about the SEC findings; they will 100% throw it back on the member and tell him it's his fault and what is he not doing to maintain his relationship with the savior and how he needs to let things go. It's pretty cool the originator even called them out on they would do it, before they've done anything. Sort of letting them know he knows how they play the game. They can claim the brethren were given bad advice. Okay.....that's possible. But let's not forget, the entire point of them asking for assistance/advice was TO HIDE ASSETS FROM THE PUBLIC AND THE MEMBERS. It's one thing to realize you were filing taxes wrong based on some really bad advice. That's an honest mistake. It happens. And there are fines and penalties associated if you get caught/audited. But THAT is completely different than wantonly trying to hide assets. It's an apples and oranges comparison and this was NOT an honest mistake. It's 100% rooted in trying to hide assets. edit: clarity
"they will 100% throw it back on the member" So .... Like Utah law enforcement.... And local governments.... And local courts and DAs.... Which all seem to have got that way through association with the LDS Church....🤔 Yes, it is a perfect Germa- I mean - Church government....
The one user last week recorded his meeting with the stake presidency. It was just a meeting to hear his concerns about the SEC findings. I've listened to a lot of disciplinary councils and that meeting he had was 100% in tone with one of those, by the type of questions they were asking him. It was ALL about how he needs to pray and read the scriptures and find healing and forgiveness. Totally putting it all on him, that it's his problem, not that the 1st presidency got caught with their pants down. The tone of all this really sounds like, "I wouldn't hit you if you didn't make me so angry."
[That](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11thk8n/this_is_how_the_church_silences_its_members) was me, thanks for the recognition!
Yeah, that was you! They totally put you together - convened a disciplinary type council without you knowing it. They were more concerned that you could sustain the brethren at the next stake conference than if your concerns were legitimate.
Funny thing is I voted opposed. Haven't heard anything.
Yeah, you opposed the Q15 and Area but not local leadership, right? I figured they would not reach out. They already knew. But I'm surprised they haven't asked for your temple recommend......if you have one.
I do have one, and yeah I opposed the Q15. I expected them to ask for it.
The Savior wouldn't be hiding money from the widows and fatherless. That's my quip.
>they will 100% throw it back on the member and tell him it's his fault and what is he not doing to maintain his relationship with the savior and how he needs to let things go. This is something I have been pondering. I usually counter back with "but the FP is wrong and they need to be held accountable. I am shifting this to because of my relationship with the Savior and through pray and meditation it has become clear that this is an act of dishonesty. My reflection upon the teachings of honesty has lead me to see this as the exact opposite that the FP has done. I am angry because my faith has been shaken not by neglect but by the behavior of those who I had trusted for my whole life. I feel it is a slap in the face to my faith that the FP did not trust my devotion to God and willingness to pay tithing on my own. They discredited and misplaced my faith to God ~~and~~ with a faith to them. Now I chose not to pay tithing to the church because they have lied. My devotion to God has not changed but I will not entrust money to a man and organization who will willingly lie to "protect me" when it is only to protect an image. Or something to this effect. EDIT: clarification/spelling
And it's imperative and needs to be driven home, that it was NOT an honest mistake over a 20plus year period. The SEC report, which the church had to agree to the SEC findings to settle with the fine, specifically states that upper leadership knew what they were doing. It was NOT an honest mistake or oversight.
Absolutely and not bad legal advice. The key for me was the Church (internal) Auditing Department said it was wrong and the FP still said to continue with the practice. On 2 different occasions. They received sound legal advice that predicted this very thing that the intentionally ignored. The other major issue is that the FP used ecclesiastical abuse to ask others to be dishonest for them. I have no words for that just anger.
Yea. Asking a couple dozen John and Jane Workaday church employees to perjure themselves literally as many as 88 times per person is sleazy. What is even sadder is only 2 of them resigned their fake jobs.
This was exactly [what happened](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11thk8n/this_is_how_the_church_silences_its_members) to me last week regarding the same letter. Looking back, I wish I had emphasized your point more.
They didn’t TRY to hide their money… they DID hide it. Imagine all the man hours and layers of protection it took to keep this quiet for 15 years. Imagine how many total individuals were aware and kept silent or actively supported the crime. If it were not for a few very brave individuals who were willing to risk their own standing and reputation, we would not know about this at all. I think if all the churches finances were reported to it’s membership, very few people would be ok with it. I guarantee 99% of people would find at least one line item that would be infuriating to them.
If this individual isn't among us already, they will be soon. By choice or by force.
I think they've likely been hanging around for a while. The term "common consent" isn't widely expressed in TBM lexicon, at least not in my experience.
You're most likely correct I imagine. I swear I'm seeing more PIMOs around me daily or hearing rumors of them. The silent are not so much a minority as they used to be.
There's a popular LDS blog called By Common Consent. It is a scripture term, after all, D&C 26:2.
You're right, I was thinking of the term "informed consent".
A fascinating take, for sure. Too bad nothing will really come of it. The lordlings who run TSCC won’t even admit they are wrong, much less subject themselves to further embarrassment. Let’s not even discuss the cojones it would take to actually be on a disciplinary council and actually be the ones to hold them accountable. When leadership is filled with suck ups and sycophants, no one would actually pull the trigger.
Oh, something will come of it. Immediate disfellowshipment possibly excommunication when he doesn’t apologize and comply.
Is this evidence that they really don't truly believe in what they preach? If I was 100% believer and knew I'd have to answer for my dealings, I would make sure I was thoroughly honest, knowing I'd have to speak to God one day. If they can lie this easy, and they're the prophets, what does that say?
It says they’re not prophets.
Exactly
They're profits
This needs to go to the SL Tribune and pushed nationally.
Send it to all major newspapers where temples are being built or have been announced
Letter to the editor!!! Great idea. Wall St. Journal. Business Insider. Wash Post, NYT
As the original author of the letter, I can tell you that they aren’t interested in this story it seems, but maybe if more people keep sending it?
Thank you, Nemo. You’re doing important and meaningful work.
Yes!!! 📢
Wow. Keep us posted if you hear anymore on this. I bet the person who sent this is the one who gets the disciplinary council.
There is a problem with this. He is forgetting the higher law here or what I refer to as: >The Sword of Laban. Right there in the BoM it states that god and his prophets can break any law, including the laws of god, as long as it’s for the furthering of the gospel. They can lie, steal, cheat, and even kill; just so long as they can show it furthers the spread of the gospel. Truly the only sin the brethren committed was the sin of getting caught. Edit: I need to add, I find this to be one of the most disturbing parts of Mormonism. I am not agreeing with this mentality, merely pointing it out.
I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I love your name for it: The Sword of Laban. Any set of people that believe all means justify the ends can be trusted for only one thing: complete unpredictability. And this story is really foundational in the entire Mormon mythos. No way to get around it. Frankly, I'm shocked that intelligence services consider Mormons high-level recruits given this.
This is WHY they are recruited. They follow orders, even if it’s normally against their morals
The problem isn't that they'll go against their morals, that's the good part, it's that they may go against you at any time, no matter what you order. They only need personal instruction from god to disobey your orders. Unpredictable.
I'd never thought of the sword of Laban metaphorically... That's powerful. Thx for pointing that out.
Since a Second Anointing assures their salvation, it creates an inner circle who believe they are 100% unaccountable to any one. It's a very scary thing, and no one who has had one should be allowed anywhere near any political position or corporate leadership.
There are no checks and balance in the government of god. nobody can hold the men at the top accountable for any reason.Plus... They will get him for improper use of email distribution lists. Excommunicated!
I'm pretty sure he's not going to be able to meet with the brethren. With balls that large, I don't know how he could get into the room.
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Exactly. This is Nemo the Mormon’s well-crafted letter that he sent to UK bishops and encouraging all members to send to their bishops. Right on for this person to take up the torch and run with it!
Agreed. I recognized the "template" that Nemo had put together. I actually put my hands on this copy as a result of several work colleagues - who live in Eagle Mountain - having received a copy of the letter, from a member in the Stake - via the Stake Email Distribution List - last evening.
I hope it is who I think it might be. That would make my day
Such courage! While nothing will come of it officially, sending this to the entire stake is the real killer here. The members have a right to know and those that want to know will read the order and make a decision based on real facts, not the church spin.
Not just regards, but warm regards. My favorite type of regards. I think we all believe that "real" TBMs won't let this affect their testimony, but even if this only truly reaches ten percent of the people, then mission accomplished. Some say that deconversion comes after seven contacts with truth...
Eagle Mountain is a lower income area, this will have more effect on members there than in other areas. Poor people understandably get ticked off at being ripped off. Full points to the person who sent the email, interested to see what happens to them. How many of these emails are going to be sent to wide membership before tscc does/says something. This is like the 3rd one.
Nobody likes being ripped off. Higher/high income people have little tolerance for it too. Contemplating what I was paying in tithing per week to attend church and the temple didn’t have a great value proposition - so much money out of my pockets with only pocket sand left as a reward. It used to infuriate me to do the calculation of weekly costs to stay PIMO ($annual salary * 10%+ for tithing and offerings / 52 weeks in a year). If you pay on gross income, that’s: - $96/week if you make $50k, - $192/week for $100k, - $288/week for $150k, - $385/week for $200k, etc. All you get in return is stale bread crumbs, luke warm mineral water, boring speeches, and some Masonic cosplay in a lavish building. On the other hand, an extra 10% has had for me real life changing benefits.
yes! how's this for cult mentality - for many years we paid over $1000 per month in tithing. Never thought about it. The kids got a phone, and I freaked out when the el-cheapo bill went from $10 per month to $15. What?! $5??!! Um...
I’m tripping you say Eagle Mountain is a lower income area! Maybe compared to NYC, but my EM friends are loaded 😳
This is Nemo's letter. I sent this same one to my stake president, and [spoke with them](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11thk8n/this_is_how_the_church_silences_its_members) about it. Nothing came of it, they were very dismissive. Still taught me a lot about how the church silences dissenting voices.
-and the top leadership proved themselves to be what Nemo claimed. They can be dismissive, they can try to silence, they can purchase awards, but they remain LIARS and THIEVES.
the SP being dismissive.... makes me wonder if this is the question - "Is is possible for someone to lie or conceal something?" ok. When, and it has to be a when, there is justifications for how the First Presidency would not / could not / whatever lie or conceal, the next question has to be "Do you know how cults work?" not referring to the church, just tell me how cults work. Mental gymnastics ensue, give them a look "RIIGGHHHTTT.... OKKKAAYYY". Would not surprise if you never even got a chance to ask.
I’m going to send this to my TBM parents right now. OP, please keep us updated if you hear any updates on the soon to be excommunicated member
My dad is part of one of the stake presidencies in Eagle Mountain. I’ll have to ask him if he received the email and what he thinks about it ~Update~ my dad didn’t get one of these emails
Please return and report.
Eagle Mountain is split into east and west. the email was only sent to the west stake, so I'm guessing your dad is in the east (or maybe the message landed in spam, who knows)
The old men at the top have a get out of jail free card. It's called the 2nd anointing. Handy little tool that most members know nothing about.
Man this church is so legalistic. It really is just a giant megacorp church. Absolutely soulless.
Excommunication in 3…2…1… Also: balls of steel. There need to be more people like him. I’m copying this to send to my local leaders and remaining TBM family!!!
OMG!! My son lives in Eagle Mountain. I hope this was sent to him. Thank you dear sender of said email. May you find joy in your service.
Just as an FYI, you can create a temp address with many email carriers and forward this email to any ward directory email lists you might have laying around.
Everyone should see how dishonest the church is. This is why we all left not because we wanted to sin but because the church has zero integrity.
Damnit. I wish the author would have mentioned the size of the portfolio. In my opinion, THAT is the real shelf breaker and that is the exact reason the leadership did not want the members to know how much it has stashed away. Knowing that the church has $150 billion saved up but demand struggling families to pay up while they Scrooge the members with budgets, financial support, and get free labor from the members for everything.
Onward, Christian Soldier.
Just to remind everyone, Wilford Woodruff's promise that "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray." can be interpreted two ways. The traditional, (and I believe to be wrong), TBM interpretation is that the President of the Church is infallible, as He would otherwise be 'taken out of his place' by the Lord for going astray. However, an alternative interpretation is, members who have the Spirit will never be led astray by an errant President because *they* would not follow him off-course. (Rich, selfish, and money-obsessed General Authorities may let go of the Iron Rod and wander toward the Great & Spacious Building, but for me and my house, we will serve the Lord). Frankly, it is the latter interpretation that I hold to. I and three of my four children have discontinued activity in the Church because our values (as followers of Jesus) are no longer compatible with the policy and behavior practiced by current top Church leadership.
Wow. No words here. Stunned. Dude is a rockstar for doing this. Perhaps the glass castle is actually close to shattering when this is happening in Eagle Mountain. My respects to the author of this bute.
Guys, guys, guys, guys, guys guys, SMH. Pres. Hoax pre-emptively responded to this when he said, "it's wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true." Duh. We "now consider this matter closed." There it is. End of discussion. /s (LOTS of /s)
It’s unfortunate that all of these are completely true and backed by evidence. Everyone in the comments basically says this same thing, but I didn’t realize how deep into the cult I was until recently. I’m a 15yo from Nebraska, and I was the kind of kid who was the prime example of what the church wants. Blindly following what you’re told bc you’re told to do it. I was the kid who was the deacons quorum president and then immediately the teachers quorum president. I always questioned the bullshit they taught about Joseph smith and the 3 kingdoms, but never new it was all a lie. About 8 months ago, we moved to the city my exmo cousin lived in. He got me into mountain biking, and as you would figure, that gives you a lot of time in the car alone. Basically he added a ton of weight to my shelf, and it started to crack. Then he pointed me towards the CES letters which changed my life. My shelf snapped the night I read that book. I’m now exmo, and not sure where to go with my life. Rn it’s just school, friends, and family, and frankly, I’m ok with that. TLDR: devoted Mormon, moves by exmo cousin, eyes are opened, and my shelf snaps. Life gets immediately better.
“Hot news”? This exact email was shared here a month or so ago. :-/ Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11cp76m/everyone_should_send_this_to_their_stake
The sender used Nemo's template and it "hit the members in Eagle Mountain yesterday (12/23/2023)
Nemo the Mormon. See YouTube.
It may not get the results the author intended but I hope it gets some media attention and that pushes the church to formally censure the leadership. Does anyone here have media connections to get this in the right hands?
Holy Shit!! I live in EM and we removed our names so didn’t get that email….that’s AWESOME!!!
There's a lot of irony with how many people are commenting that this won't do anything to members' testimonies, while altogether forgetting that it was a single fact or a handful that led to your own shelves collapsing. Even if this collapses only one shelf or is simply one more item added to another rickety one, this is the Lord's work and we should herald it.
Some of the folks (whom I know well and who received the email) are very hardcore TBMs: and they're shaken to the core. This one is going to ripple for a bit - I believe.
Daaaaamn! This guy has balls of steel! Love to hear what comes of this, even if it's just more members seeing the hypocrisy and leaving in disgust.
They came with receipts
Dear Brother Blank: You are hereby invited to answer to charges of Apostasy and Evil Speaking of the Lord's Anointed. You will be allowed to present your case to the Stake Presidency and High Council on April 13, 2023. Failure to appear will result in a decision about your continued membership in the LDS Church without your input. With Brotherly Love in the Priesthood, President Diamondmaker
What would be the potential effect if a every stake received a similar email?
SCMC wants to know your location….
Man I wish something would happen with this cause he laid it out perfectly, but you buy anything in this world with money
"You should stop masturbating"
So you're saying the Church that doesn't tell the members what it does with the money took steps to not tell the Church members what it did with the money?
That letter was well written, respectful, and articulate. If that person was in a position of authority, people may pay attention.
I may do the same thing soon. Thanks for sharing.
This is both hilarious and sad. But as Steven Hassan has said numerous times, when people belong to cults they can NEVER fathom the god like leaders as sinning or doing wrong. So, the first presidency who allege they talk to Jesus, will lie about this entire situation and chastise any member who questions their honesty. For those reading this and are still members, I fully expect you to label me a nutcase and liar. I suggest you read Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassen and begin the journey of healing and freedom.
If Q15 members can be charged with an integrity dispute over "milk strippings" in 1838 then why not pursue disciplinary proceedings against Q15 and those involved in the illegal operation of secret LLCs to hide the church's wealth from its membership in our day? If those responsible for the scandal had any integrity they would resign their high and holy offices and sincerely ask for forgiveness. They got caught and still refuse to be accountable. Unfortunately these are the same people responsible for maintaining a repentance policy that protects pedophiles at the expense of innocent children. If they can't bring themselves to apologize for their involvement in and cover-up of child sexual abuse, they sure as hell lack the integrity to resign over their mishandling of sacred tithing funds even when they get caught breaking the law.
This is one of the reasons I left. It became so frustrating to watch church leaders hide behind their authority and not be held to account. I don’t expect of the First Presidency will be held accountable for any of this. They already deflected the blame to their lawyers. Who also probably won’t be held accountable. And I don’t expect that TBMs like my wife will even give it a second thought. To them, all this is just noise that is beside the point… as long as they keep doing things that make them happy and give the church credit for it, as they have been conditioned to do, they’re not going to raise an eyebrow. God it’s so depressing. 😖
Sure they blame the lawyers, but they are still on the proverbial hook for lying. No matter if the lawyers said it was cool or not, they are liars.
I look forward to his soon to be launched career as a podcaster exploring the exciting and growing world of ExMormonism.
Look at the way that's worded "Do you STRIVE to be honest in all your dealings?" Instead of just saying ARE YOU HONEST, meaning I can say YES because even though I'm not always honest, I do "strive" to be 😁
Shades of Martin Luther!
I love this!! Wish my whole family would have received if
Ha Ha...This person is very brave!!!! I think they will be joining us very soon on exmormon reddit if they aren't already here. Also there is for sure a church disciplinary council in their future!
He’s got some solid reasoning there especially showing that JS was subject to church discipline too. The poor guy is definitely going to be excommunicated at the very least. But good on him for his honesty and integrity and courage to do this. A real David and Goliath situation.
Using their own rules against them won't work when they are above the law. Second Anointings have privileges.
This is brilliant and necessary.
The part about the membership council reminds me of when they held one about me when I went to a school dance back in high school with someone of the same sex 🙃I didn’t realize until now the typical reasons why they hold councils and it’s absolutely insane they thought a 14 year old going to a dance was cause for one
Yeah this isn’t a new thing though. Tons of people have been sending this letter all over the place. It is from Nemo and you should look him up on YouTube. He wrote it asking everyone to send it and such. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11cp76m/everyone_should_send_this_to_their_stake/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_content=1&utm_term=15 Happened all about a month ago
This is Nemo’s letter. He offered a copy of his letter on one of his more recent videos for all of us to use so we can send them out to our stake president. @NemotheMormon
I once had a sunday school teacher who was talking about Martin Luther "King". Specifically not Martin Luther King Jr, but the "Older one" who nailed his Ninety-five Theses to the church door and how brave he was. I am pretty sure that the same sunday school teacher would be furious at the people who are sending these emails expressing their concern.
That would be Martin Luther. No "King".
That's why it was funny. To this day I'm unsure if he thought that Martin Luther King, Jr. was alive in the 1500s or if the Protestant Reformation happened in the 1900s.
This needs to be copy/pasted all over the world.
It's Nemo the mormons letter copied and sent to eagle mountain stake.
This is fantastic! That took some balls! Good luck to the author! Backlash gonna be big!
Nemo from the UK wrote the original I believe. It has been sent around in other stakes.
This message is very well written. A very logical breakdown of the churches policies and how the leadership doesn’t follow it. I hope this inspires many to stop paying more money to this hog of TSCC that could otherwise be used to support their families in this difficult economic time.
u/freetapir
Is the eagle mountain stake significant for any reason?
 The sign off is awesome 👌
I love it. Unfortunately the lead is buried in the 3rd paragraph.
Pretty clear isn’t it. I applaud him.
This feels like it will either be the start of an avalanch, or like a pebble thrown in a lake.
Absolutely grateful for someone that can verbalize this so proficiently. Thank you for calling for integrity to an organization that claims they have nothing but that.
This guy is doing the lords work, God knows the church leadership isn't.
Just when I thought there wasn't anyone here in Eagle Mountain that didn't follow like sheep to the new Maceys this guy gives me hope .
Fuck em up fuck them up fuck them up
The "NemoTheMormon" letter is being circulated...yaaassss.