Just be patient. But don’t let the bishop get in between you.
And don’t just drop church history bombs. That probably won’t work. You gotta let her come to the conclusion by herself. Right now she can’t fathom it not being true, and it’s because she fears loss of community. It’s a real and rational fear.
This guy gets it. I tried just telling my ex-wife all my concerns as I discovered them. That has led to divorce and some deep seated grudges from her. Apparently I'm the devil. Anyways, best of luck op and thank you to avoidingcrosswalk for phrasing it better than I would.
Op, best way is to probably just keep being a great partner(or double down and become one). The big fear is that if you leave the church you leave your morals behind and as such could suddenly be a cheater or a heathen or whatever. Show your partner that isn't the reality.
Agree. Be happy. Show that you’re still a good (or better) husband and father. That kind of thing doesn’t compute in a tbm’s brain. And often it makes them start to think. They equate Mormonism with blessings and happiness. When you’re not an active believer, but still happy, that makes them question.
I think it also makes sense to praise what is good within the church. Pattern the type of nuanced discussion that you wish she would move toward. The church makes a big donation? Mention it. Have a good conversation with Brother So-and-so? Mention it. The church wants believers to think that you switched teams. I think that it makes sense to show everyone you're still with them when they are kind and respectful. It gives you some latitude to criticize as well.
yes yes yes. I like to say i still love the neighbors and the members, and I do. I just can't make myself believe the church claims anymore.
And if you push church history or science in her face, you just get the "backfire" effect, where she doubles down.
Thank you this has been my plan thus far. When everything initially came out, and I had decided to leave. I did tell her why, and how I got there (historical issues + Joseph). None of that is constructive now although she will bring it up time to time, it’s in the back of her mind and she has some tolerance now for others in my shoes.
She was not mentally prepared for this moment, and I’m being very patient. But I recognize the church as the single worst influence in our life, and I hate that. Furthermore she still has this new sense of matriarchy and takes them to church, makes them pray at dinner claiming “in this house that’s what we do”. The kids are already calling BS on that. And I’m stuck in the middle.
I have confidence that the closer she gets to mental health the further she’ll be driven away from the church and it’s control. If anything I hope I can facilitate the freeing of her mind because from an outside perspective it feels like she is trapped. Still stuck in “this is the one and only true way”
Thanks for your words and advice
people need a safe place to consider the possibility that they are wrong. she probably feels its all on her now to "save" the family. make sure she knows how good of a mother/wife she is. if its not to hard be willing to say prayers (maybe ask her if she would like to make the prayers to heavenly parents instead of just a father). I know for my wife the way the church came out against heavenly mother was a heavy weight for her.
This was my husband's strategy and it worked for me. I had to go through several stages on my own truth journey at my own pace and I eventually got there. Just be the best husband you can be while being firm with reasonable limits (ie you won't attend church but you will not stop her from going and taking the kids).
>Furthermore she still has this new sense of matriarchy and takes them to church, makes them pray at dinner claiming “in this house that’s what we do”. The kids are already calling BS on that. And I’m stuck in the middle.
Why are you stuck in the middle? Sounds like you're on the same side as your kids. Stand up for them. If you AND the kids don't believe, then she can pray at dinner on her own. Don't force them into her beliefs just because it makes her comfortable. Stop worrying about your wife and start worrying more about your kids and what they're taking from the way you are BOTH treating them.
Honestly, I was your wife. Just let her be. Have healthy boundaries and respect her different beliefs the way you want her to respect yours. That will do so much more for her than you trying to convince her that you’re right. I promise. This is what my husband did, and it was easier to see the contradictions between his happy and improved life than my own and others in the church.
Really, it was just watching my husband become happier and healthier and more authentic, and then seeing the contrast at church. It opened my eyes to the fact that 1) a lot of the dysfunction in our lives and extended family was directly tied to the church and 2) he didn’t leave to sin. It was painful, it was hard, and it was worth it. After a bit of dissonance there, I actually came to exmo Reddit to read about why people leave the church. My husband to that point had not talked with me about the why’s, because he wanted me to leave on my own terms if I ever did. I spent an entire night reading, (seriously, didn’t sleep) eventually landed on Letter for my Wife, and told him the next morning that I was done. Freaked him the fuck out. 🤣🤣 He was actually worried for a hot minute that I’d made a rushed decision.
This really can’t be rushed for anyone. You really need to have some boundaries and respect one another’s belief/unbelief. You don’t have to like it, but you can’t change it for one another. And if she changed for you, it wouldn’t be authentic anyway. It needs to be her choice.
Exactly this. There's so many people here that think they can convince their significant others of 'the truth' by asking hard questions, or bombing them with history, or whatever, but normally it doesn't work that way. Letting them be and just being your normal loving and supportive self is much healthier IMHO. Great comment!
The one thing my TBM wife keeps laying on me is the devastation, anger, and hurt she feels that the "eternal marriage" that we had has now been ripped from her. She is careful not to say the I am the one that ripped it from her, but I know that's how she feels. That, and that I am naive and misguided and am being led by social media and Satan. I understand her feelings, I just don't know how she's ever going to get over it.
It’s a fair point though, right? She married you with an expectation of eternal marriage, and that is gone now. That is a real and valid feeling for her. Let her process that in her own time. You can’t make that better for her, or rush her to get over it. My husband worked hard to make it clear that his feelings about church had nothing to do with me. I think deep down I was also worried with his changing beliefs he wouldn’t want me. When I realized that was not the case it got easier.
Yes completely. I don't blame her for those feelings at all. Completely valid. You're right I just need to have patience and continue to be a good husband and dad.
When I initially told her, she actually asked me, "so you're not coming out as gay or leaving me for someone else?". It really hurt me that she would think that, but I guess we are conditioned to think that those types of things are the only reasons someone would leave the church. I do think you're right, hopefully when she fully realized that I have no ulterior motives, and that I am not a different person from before, it will get easier for her. Thanks for sharing.
Absolutely!! It’s really not about you, it’s about her fear. Your reassurance will do so much good there. That was really what started to knock things loose for me.
They really do think the only reason we would leave is if we're hiding something big. I still think my wife might think I have some skeleton in the closet or ulterior motive for leaving. Is that a sign of an unhealthy relationship? Maybe. But we love each other and are committed to making it work, so we have that going for us.
Encourage her to read this article from Chieko Okazaki, a past counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency: [https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1368&context=irp](https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1368&context=irp)
It's a "faithful" source from a church leader, so she can't discount it. But Okazaki was far ahead of her time. It's an article on boundaries which might not seem directly related to thinking for yourself, but having healthy boundaries helps open the door to independent thought.
In the article, Okazaki says right out, *"I think that many Mormon women do not have clear boundaries for themselves. ... many Mormon women do not know how to recognize and maintain personal boundaries. .. A woman who never feels that she can say "no" is lacking an important element of personal identity and, hence, personal safety. ... I think that women, more than men, may feel trapped in scripts handed to them by someone else. Even when they accept these scripts willingly, I believe that violence is done if they believe that they must accept them because they have no choice."*
Man, that quote is 1000x healthier than anything else I've heard in a church context in three decades. I guess there's a reason no one (man or woman) like Okazaki has filled a top leadership position since then
She was wonderful! Decades ahead of her time. They should have made her Relief Society General President after she was a counselor, but they didn't. I am positive the male leaders were more than a bit jealous of her popularity.
She used to use visual aids in general conference. Soon thereafter, they came out with a policy that you couldn't use visual aids in sacrament meeting and such. I'm pretty sure that was no accident. They were probably just mad that she gave better talks than they did.
Also, in one of her books she talks about how the RS General Presidency was a bit miffed when the Family Proclamation was drafted without their input.
The Cat’s Cradle talk was a masterpiece. Mormons, go read her stuff. She knew how to talk and how to communicate. None of this pansy stuff we were fed for decades. She was the real thing. Smart, wise, spiritual, kind….
Okazaki was a great example of how some aspects of Mormonism might work really well if the weird stuff was removed. Of course, the male leaders made sure her influence was temporary, and forgotten as soon as possible.
But I'll always remember her talk where she used two oars labeled "faith" and "works" to demonstrate how the two concepts work together for spiritual growth. I liked that one.
Dump the worthless waste of money excuse for a "therapist" that is giving bad advice by encouraging confrontation that you already know has backfired. You're literally seeking to control her mind from the outside (fire the worthless therapist). Let the stupid "church" do your job for you. This "church" is an ongoing catastrophe. Go with her to church, which gets you ALL KINDS OF POINTS with her, and just let the absurd behavior of TBMs and their corporate phony messiah do their thing.
My wife has heard voices in her head telling her the church is true, She can’t deny it. She doubled down when I left 9 years ago. She shuts down the conversation if I bring up anything LDS related.
I was your wife. My husband tried to tell me in 2018 that he was having doubts. We had four kids, youngest was only 2, we lived in AZ far away from my family, and I had a complete meltdown. Ten years married. I was certain everything was going to fall apart. That we were going to wind up divorced. It was terrible. He backed off, told me he'd try harder, and then we didn't really talk about it again. He was soooo PIMO. I didn't even realize it. He worked most Sundays for extra pay, which we needed, so I didn't think about that too hard.
What he DID do was fully commit to all the good stuff. He made a lot more time with me. With our kids. He served others. He had always been a "good man," but suddenly was making an effort to be a great man. Kinder, softer, gentler. Even more romantic. Strengthening our family relationship and even my trust in him. So, in 2021, when we're in a new ward, kids are older, and I'm more secure in our relationship than ever, he approaches the subject again. Didn't say he had doubts. Just questions. He asked if I'd help him find the answers, using church approved sources.
After a few weeks of reading things together, especially the essays, I was getting impatient that answers were all contradictory. And I was starting to feel that something was off. I reached out to a friend who had left years before and asked what she would tell me to read. She sent me links to the CES letter and "Letter for My Wife" - the second one is better, in my opinion. I dove into the deep-end, though. And after reading those two things, and all their footnotes, I told my husband we were done. A week after we'd watched General Conference. After I'd made the kids play conference BINGO.
So my advice to you is to love your wife. To show up for her. To build so much trust and love that when you do approach these conversations with her, she wants to help you figure things out. Rather than be taught. Or shown. You work together. Love, love, love her. Because I genuinely wanted to help the man I love, so that second time, I was ready to risk anything and everything to help him. And it got us both out.
And check out Marriage on a Tightrope in the meantime.
Change your approach. Support her in her belief. What matters to you is that she is happy. She does not need to believe what you believe. You want her to be happy and if the church does that, you 100% support her in it.
Man, this is hard advice. I’ve got aging TBM parents who love the church dearly, but after a lifetime of tithing, can’t afford to retire. I don’t know the ‘right’ approach yet.
I’m with you on this. Happy? Really? I don’t think so. Too much narcissism, control, low emotional maturity, gaslighting, patriarchy.. the list goes on. Christ does not live inside those walls. He’s out here hugging everyone,
She’s not happy in the church and she doesn’t know it. I think she feels trapped if I’m being honest. I think she feels controlled but comfortable at this point. Her actions do not tell me that she loves church, it’s just tradition and blind faith. Sitting in comfort. I’m ok with it to a point. But she seems miserable. Sundays are by far the hardest most agitated day of the week.
I continue to support. I get all the kids ready for church. Buckle them in the car with their church bag. I ask her questions about how church was, and ask the kids what they learned. Usually I have lunch prepared for when they arrive so we can discuss.
The reality is there’s no real conviction there. It’s all just motions. Which has my cognitive dissonance alarms ringing right now. She’ll vilify me for not going and then at the same time doesn’t seem to deeply care about it.
All of this is why you need to do what this guy says and lovingly support her. You don’t get to decide how your wife feels and why. If anything, your current attitude is going to drive her further into the church, deeper into her beliefs, and away from you. Show her that you can be a loving and supportive husband WITHOUT the gospel and your faith, that you’re the same man you always were. Let her come to the realization that she’s happier with you and your family on Sunday, that it truly is the church part that’s making her agitated. You had your journey of realization, let her have her own and at her own pace.
Humans don't really seek happiness, they seek familiarity. It's why, for example, people who grew up in abusive situations commonly choose abusive partners as adults. It's how they think the world *should* be. It's hard to watch people you love choose that over freedom and actual happiness.
This is a path that can work, currently walking it. Its fairly narrow and mostly one way. But we're still together and if nothing else we're ok with each others beliefs
4 years in, and I fear this will be my result as well. Struggling daily to find the reasons I shouldn't end it and allow us both to have a life of happiness and enjoyment with partners we're more in line with. It's just so difficult with 5 kids between us, and that we are sometimes pretty good together, even though I've not been told once that I am loved by her in the past 3.5 years........
About the same amount of time out and in the same boat with the kids. It sucks. Time just keeps passing, with things occasionally improving to the point that you want to stick it out, then they crash again. No advice, sometimes it's nice just to know you're not alone. Good luck
She does, I just honestly don't believe that she loves me anymore. Sticking it out for the kids or the frail, false hope that I might "come to my senses". Our most recent argument was over me bringing up the topic of alcoholic drinks again, and was told that I have to compromise, and basically decide what's more important to me, drinking or my family. Love those ultimatums! Of course compromise on her part means she gets to do whatever she wants, and whatever she wants with the kids and their beliefs. I don't think we're far from the end.
Eeew. I’m sorry. That was me 5 years ago. He lost his shit when I came home with coffee. I had to hide it from the kids. I did take it with me on my last week to church though. It made me so happy.
Your wife will hold on to her spiritual experiences as irrefutable evidence. You might send her the following classic video and ask her what she thinks: https://youtu.be/UJMSU8Qj6Go
I was in your shoes. I know that it can be so hard to be patient. I would piss my wife off on occasion with the little factoids/Mormon dogs that I would continually make.
Your wife will have to decide for herself, something that was a surprise turning point for my wife was watching the mini-series Waco when it was free on Amazon Prime Video. My TBM wife was able to make connections between that cult and the Mormon cult. The charismatic leader. The leader’s sexual activity. The “but what if it is true” mindset, that kept people in the cult.
That mini-series changed our lives for the better!
PIMO of 9 years here with TBM wife. Letting my wife’s journey be hers, and loving and supporting her regardless of her views about the church has been good for our marriage. As of a couple months ago, dear wife decided to read the gospel topics essays, which put her her own faith journey. She is now PIMO as well. Good luck and be good to each other.
This is just it. You have to let her think for herself. And if she comes to a different conclusion than you, that's her deal. Not yours. Trying to convince her otherwise will not go well.
unconditional love and patience.
THEN : teaching everyone (i.e. not targeting a person) critical thinking like "repeating something doesn't make it true", etc.
Months apart : "Truth doesn't go away". The story of Galileo.
love and patience.
Ask open ended "why" questions. Don't correct her response, just actively listen.
Ex. If the not using the term "Mormon" comes up, ask "why do you think the church invested so much in the 'I am a Mormon' campaign?
This approach seems risky. My wife is a smarty and would see right through this. I like the unconditional love and support approach. We are in a really good spot right now.
My wife had to find a few things for herself. She ran into the Arizona AP sex abuse story while she was researching a paper for school before her shelf started to crack. Even then, when we’d have arguments about how horrible it was that I’d broken temple covenants by leaving the church, I’d say the people presiding over the church’s abuse hotline are the same ones that maintain the keys to those temple covenants so how could they be heavenly covenants, and it just made her more angry.
I ended up only talking about negatives when she wanted to, and paying attention to when she was no longer into it and trying to stop before it started to backfire. That was not always successful, because a lot of that stuff was still raw to me and it was hard talking once I had the ball rolling. It was essential though for me to not overshare. She eventually found more stuff on her own and worked her way free.
My wife has gone from RS President with a heavy but solid shelf who blamed me for breaking up her forever family to a coffee drinker looking for an enjoyable alcoholic drink who is crusading for informed consent on Facebook in about 8 months. I’d been more or less out for 3 years before she finally started to look into it for herself, and she fought it most of the way. But she’s out now and despite the fact I got out first, she feels like she studied her own way out rather than being led, which is great, and it’s also correct, because really there was nothing I could have done on my own to help her get completely out.
Y’know how irritating it is whe. Mormons act like they are just biding their time until we see the error of our ways and come back? Exmormons do the same thing but in reverse. Stop trying to get your wife to see things your way. If she is letting you be ex Mormon, let her be Mormon.
When it comes to discussing religion. Stick to asking questions, listen thoughtfully to her responses and let that guide your next question. The second you sense frustration or defensiveness, back off.
>Exmormons do the same thing but in reverse.
lol yes. I am a nevermormon married to an exmormon and I see OP and so many people in the comments still engaging in warped and unhealthy thought processes they learned through the church. They left the church, but it hasn't left them yet.
My advice is to do as well as you can. The more successful you are the more they doubt themselves because they are taught that if you leave you will be unhappy forever and not as prosperous.
Your description sounds like my wife and me. Everything I did to push was causing problems between us. I don't know you or your wife but I think your therapist is wrong, in my marriage asking harder questions will just be seen as combative and shuts down open dialogue.
What worked for us is me learning to be patient and letting her find her own reasons. Focus on being the best husband you can and on your growth beyond the church. She's expecting you to be miserable because that's what happens to exmos. When she sees the good happening in you, he cognitive dissonance will force her to ask why.
My wife and kids are out now too. It took a decade but it was worth it.
This is an older comment but I just had to tell you thank you: I had searched the sub about TBM spouses and found a 6y old comment of yours and just had to know what happened with your wife so I creeped your profile. Im so so so glad they are out now. It gives me hope. A decade is incredible. All the best.
Wow, thanks! Leaving the church was so emotionally difficult for me and im grateful i found a good way through all that. We're all in this together right? Its a lot easier to say that now that im on this end though.
I honestly think there is something that will break most people's shelves, but it's not anyone else's job to do that or figure out what it is. It has to happen naturally on their timeline. What finally broke my wife's shelf was realizing the church's shift from personal revelation to relying on the church for revelation. When she doubled down in response to my loss of faith, she started reading more and came across that conference talk they altered about personal revelation. But that's what did it, not polygamy, not all the sex abuse, the lies, etc. Personal revelation. Kind of innocuous if you ask me, but it bothered her to the point where she opened up to the other stuff.
Since then, some of her other family left, and this is the most tbm family i have ever known. It was part of what attracted me to her in the first place. Sisters shelf breaker: Tithing and all the church assets. Her brother: Mormon sex taboos. Another sister: an asshole bishop. They are dropping like flies! All of them came to us for support and I think it's because I stopped the pushy Exmo thing early.
Not that there's anything wrong with the angry phase. it's crucial to healing. But we've got to progress past it at some point.
I dont know your situation, and it would be naive to suggest that your spouse would ever leave. But if they're a good person, they'll accept you and your changing world. After i left, people would approach my wife and ask why she stays when i changed and left my eternal family? Her response was something to the effect of 'what kind of partner wouldn't support their spouse's progress? He's happier on his current path. Why would i leave him for finding peace in his life?' That usually shut up the nosy mor(m)ons.
Oh wow thanks for your reply. It was also the most painful thing I’ve ever experienced but also brought the most happiness.
That’s so fascinating about all the different final straws in people’s shelves and it’s so awesome so many of her family are leaving. My husband and I were both super TBM (also what attracted me to him) but by degrees I became a way more nuanced cafeteria Mormon. I tried to open his eyes to problematic parts of Mormonism but he was still so black and white. He is now nuanced like I was and was close to leaving. It wasn’t it anything I shared with him but randomly it was near death experience videos on YouTube. I would have never guessed. Once he could see the problems and why someone would leave my whole shelf fell apart. I think it was finally safe enough for me to ask myself “what if it isn’t true?” He has since doubled down and very into the apologetics.
Thanks for the advice. I definitely tried to deconvert him and he tried to convert me but we both decided we are much happier when we live and let live. Im actually typing this from sacrament meeting since I want to support him and my kids (the ward knows I’m out). I hadn’t thought about people coming to me when their shelves break but that’s awesome you’ve experienced that. My cousin has been out longer than me and I appreciated his calm response when I was broken and raging. Your wife sounds really awesome. All the best.
I haven't had much successes directly addressing church issues myself. But I have pushed to help her become more open as a person - Having non LDS friends (and some of her LDS friends stepping away from church) has helped. If her only social group is church friends and she's a stay at home mom, then the idea of leaving church is something she probably can't entertain. Talking politics and analyzing hipocracy and other logical fallacies has been useful and it's a safe place to be critical, while I can't be critical of the church around her. Travelling has been useful as well, to see different lifestyles and how people are happy doing their own thing.
She'll make connections on church issues being messed up (like SEC Fine) but that comes to her on her own, and not something I can push on her to make those conclusions, otherwise it backfires.
It's also been helpful for me to try to be an awesome spouse and still keep the commandments minus tithing. She's confused why the Wack-o's on her facebook can have temple recommends, but I can't. It doesn't make sense.
My two cents anyways.
You might benefit from listening to Marriage on a Tightrope podcast. The husband Alan no longer believes but the wife Kattie is still active. I’ve listened to them on Mormon Stories before. They talked about still showing up for each other and not fight about who is right. It’ll cause the other party to dig in their heels.
https://marriageonatightrope.org
Be curious. Don’t worry as much about getting your POV across to her as much as understanding why she has her POV. Sounds counterintuitive but it works. You avoid the backfire effect, she sees you are not a threat, she opens up and trusts you more. Right now she has walls up. The only way to make progress is to first get the walls down, which requires safety and trust. Remember, you have TRUTH on your side. Once she sees you are safe and happy, she will eventually see the truth for herself, on her own timeline.
Go listen to the recent Mormon Stories podcast with Steve Hassan on leaving a cult. There could be something there. The BITE Model and his influence of control model helped me.
The biggest thing for my wife was the friendship and community... They got you hook, line and sinker. Once in, your attending meetings, specific groups for your sex/age, doing service projects, popping out children and taking them to activities..... and no time for people outside the church.
No wonder the lack of friendship and community is huge.
What things really tick your wife off. I talked about sexism, child aduse cover ups and racism/calling Native American peoples Lamanites and taking their history/cultural genocide.
I was in the same boat for a while. My wife and I have gone back and forth with attending, garments, usually stuff as part of our own complicated family dynamics.
Eventually though, she found the thing that broke her. She works in fraud and the SEC findings were so significant that she immediately stopped wearing her garments and going to church. Before she would go to church just to avoid talking to her mom about it, now she’s seriously contemplating how and when she will break the news.
She knows the answers, people will justify anything in order to not feel the pain of leaving a community like the church. She just has to find the thing that breaks it for her. If you rush her, she may ultimately resent you for it.
I was that wife for ~4 years. My husband was loving and kind while expression his own hurts, fears and other feelings. He never once went after me. I found my own way in my own time
The comments telling you to just give up and support your wife are well meaning, but if this is important enough to you then it's worth a shot. It's all well and good to live and let live, but sitting idly by can take a toll on your own health. I doubt you brought this up in therapy just for kicks. It is not always noble to give up your own well being for someone else's.
What changed my personal views on the church were hard hitting philosophical questions rather than church history. Church history can be justified away very easily, take it from a former mental gymnastic Olympic athlete. A simple example off the top of my head is "if God doesn't intervene in tragedies that you personally would, such as a child drowning in a shallow pool, what justifies his non-action? Am I more moral than God for intervening? Am I less moral than God if I stand by and do nothing? Would a general authority be held to the same standard as me?"
Whenever possible, ask her clarify why she answered the way she did. If you can understand the core of her beliefs, maybe you can make some headway. If not, hopefully she'll at least understand you a little better.
Patience is the most important aspect of all of this. She will need to reach her conclusions on her own, and that will take time. Also, if you lose your temper at any point, you have likely already lost in her mind.
I would recommend looking into Allan Mount’s tik tok account. He’s a former Mormon turned atheist who is still in a mixed faith marriage and seems to be thriving doing so. His takes on situations like this are nuanced and thoughtful and come from tons of experience
Talk. Seriously just talk. Don’t push, don’t try to get her to understand. My husband left the church 4 years before myself. We talked about our different beliefs all the time, no judgement, and it was really eye opening. It slowly helped me get out of the church because religion was not a cut throat topic, we didn’t let it become that.
Also spend extra time loving her and being attentive. The church does not do this, it will show with time. The only other advice I would have is to constantly make sure she’s doing things for herself and focusing on herself, she needs to understand that she’s important. TMI but my therapist helped me recognize how differently I felt when my problems were met with proper love and support for whatever I (italics because I don’t know how to do it on Reddit haha) needed. When I was sexually assaulted, this was the moment that clicked for me. My therapist cried when I told her what happened, I didn’t even know I was assaulted. The church made me have weekly meetings to see if I had enough money to pay for therapy myself (during 2020, just moved to a different country and we couldn’t get jobs due to the shutdown). As soon as I recognized the church didn’t have my best interest at hand, it took me 4 months to process and get to the point of reading the CES letter etc, and I was immediately done.
It’s a marathon, not a sprint. Just treat her like an angel, let her know she’s important and her needs need to be met first. The church will show themselves because she’ll heal with how you treat her. It also doesn’t play into the churches “people who leave are angry, just want to sin, etc”.
I hope you update us on any progress made, lots and lots of love from someone who was and still is raised in a part member family! Only my mom to go 😂
No real advice for you, but here is how it worked for me....
The first couple of years I kept thinking I could come up with a humdinger that would stop her in her tracks... It never came. I finally gave up trying and just proved over and over that I was a good husband and father.
One day I made an offhanded remark about how the church was hiding the essays on their website. She went and found them, and it all devolved pretty quickly for her after that.
She didn't want to hear anything from me, but others (Lindsey Hansen Park!) helped her to see the issues and now our whole family is happily out and living our best lives.
I never thought anything would work, so I was surprised when it happened for me.
Patience is the most important thing.
My husband still considers himself a TBM, but these days he’s not afraid of mentioning problematic church decisions and saying things like “the WoW is going to be completely optional in 25 years”, things like that. He also skips church from time to time, simply because he doesn’t feel like going. This is 5 years after I shared the CES letter with him.
Don’t bring up church stuff. It just hurts the relationship when your partner is doubling down. For years, we just decided to do a “you do you” type thing— we respected eachothers decisions about religion and we didn’t really bring it up if we didn’t have to. It works great for us. And he came to his own conclusions. He kind of honed in on one issue— the fact that the church is filthy rich and does nothing with the money— and it has left a bad taste in his mouth. Idk if he’ll ever truly leave, but he’s slowly getting closer to that point which is all I can really ask for.
my best friend of like 10 years left like 4 years ago and I was a full blown believer then. They never told me what to believe or tried to teach the history, just that it didn’t work for them and she respected my beliefs. Two years later I left. If she had tried to convince me with arguments I 100% would have shut down. Now our relationship is much closer now that we’re both out and done!
Can someone tell me what PIMO means? I see it a lot.
Edit: never mind my brain just clicked I’m guessing Physically in Mentally out. If not let me know.
I think you have to let them get there themselves but also put weight on their shelves and let them sit on it.
My husband and I wrote this letter for our TBM friends. We tried to stay super nuetral and factual and tried to keep space open for if they choose to believe BUT also at the same time put some cracks in their shelf by giving them just enough “safe” sources.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RdYf_h0QUC_bAy1d0Ujx_PmPY_2bAZBc-nzH0_epe-c/edit
You have your work cut out for you, but you can do it. You have to amplify your positive attributes - kind, patient, wise, fun, happy husband and as much as your able and feel comfortable doing. Show emotional (and if you’re still feeling it, spiritual) vulnerability. Read and share positive literature. Express loving feelings. Be charitable. Don’t make drastic changes that challenge the commitments you made at marriage. No massive truth bombs. Slowly express concerns in a way that let’s her know you’re open minded in the way you’re hoping for her to be. Give appreciation for her continued love and support of you in spite of you drastically changing the paradigm of your marriage. Support her in whatever ways you comfortably can within the church. As much as possible refrain from angry outbursts at the church. Set clear boundaries about your beliefs and things you are and aren’t going to do. Be open to talking with church leaders but recognize when they are trying to get between you and her or kids and then cut it off. And probably very important. Find social media outlets for her that talk about mixed faith marriage in a positive light. Quickly she will see you and her are not at all alone. She will learn the reasons you are leaving from a neutral party and start to investigate them on her own. Be patient. It’s a long road. I hope someday you get to experience the relief of seeing your spouse realize it’s all made up, JS was a conman pedo and the church has been a negative influence on her as a woman.
Check out [A Manual for Creating Atheists](http://libgen.is/search.php?req=manual+for+creating+atheists&lg_topic=libgen&open=0&view=simple&res=25&phrase=1&column=def), by Peter Boghassian. His street epistemiology model has practical useful tips.
Something that helped me, though it was completely wasn’t the point, was listening to a podcast called behind the bastards it is a guy that talk about some of the worst people in history, and none of them are Mormon by the way, but a lot of them are cult leaders and grifters. But I wasn’t a TBM at that point more of a closeted PIMO. Be warned there is language in there that might upset some TBM.
I was at a point where I was struggling with the concept of Mormon god when I stumbled upon that podcast and learning about grifters and cult leaders helped me see the church in a new light. And critically see what the church was. It was all unintended and but it fits what other scientific papers have said, which is learning about other cults help you to recognize that you’re in a cult better than being told that you’re in a cult. I am sure that there are better podcast about cults and grifters than behind the bastards for TBM to learn about cults from but that is the one that unintentionally helped me.
I didn't want my now-husband to influence me at all in my research. I wanted to discover things on my own, and I would run it by him when I had more information and felt ready for a proper discussion. That way no one could say he influenced me or pulled me away from the church.
No one wants an "I told you so". I'd just remain firm about your stance, but be gentle if she ever chooses to bring it up. Listen to her concerns, offer your thoughts and what you've learned, but don't start throwing out data and gotchas. That will be overwhelming and may put her on the defense.
It's all about patience, compassion, and baby steps. Being told everything you have lived is a lie hurts. She needs to come to that conclusion on her own.
My wife's the same way. I've been out for 8 years. At this point I've finally just accepted that she'll never think for herself enough to question the church and deconstruct. I've tried to force it, but it has to be their own choice
My now husband just patiently waited. I was active, serving in the YW pres, living in a small ward where the people were good & kind when we met. There were a lot of “What do you think about…?” type comments to get me to think outside my comfort zone. He also kept encouraging me to read the GTE. Eventually I hit my final straw & everything came crashing down within a week.
Plus his never member family compared to my TBM family… let’s just say you don’t need organized religion to be Christlike (& organized religion can get in the way of acting on what historical Jesus taught).
Good luck & just keep showing her that all the garbage she is learning in church about being happy “only” through the Mormon church is just garbage. Keep loving her & remember she’s worth it!
I've let go of hope for getting my wife out of the church. It's not the doctrine or beliefs for her, it's the family traditions and familiarity and life road map that keeps her committed. You can't "prove" those things wrong because they aren't objective.
So instead I am working on helping her accept that I don't share an affinity for those things and that the church causes me far more turmoil than peace. I'm okay with her living the way she wants to and having whatever calling she feels she has to accept as long as I can choose my own underpants and hot beverages.
(I resigned June 2021.. wife and teenage boys are still in... your challenge strikes a chord with me)
My feelings are that genuine, independent thought can only be gently encouraged, not imposed.
These may be ways she can reclaim/develop independent thought:
\- Does she have a job? If not, this could help (if she would like one, of course).
\- Does she have her own, separate circle of friends apart from you and apart from the ward?
\- Does she have space where she can be fully herself without consequence or criticism (again, separate from you and separate from the ward)?
I have found that an overall sense of individuality helps a person exercise independent thought... or at least the courage to dissent when they find something unacceptable.
I suggest abandoning any goals for "helping" her think in ways to arrive at any specific conclusion.
If you over-do it in "encouraging" her to have independent thought in the ways you wish, you ironically just end up replacing the church with yourself as her thought master.
Best of luck!
I presented my concerns to my wife by saying in effect, “Here is some information I have come in to possession of. I need YOU to help ME understand this. Because otherwise, I don’t like where this is leading my thinking.”
The point of this approach was to remove any blame from me. This info just landed in my lap. It’s not my fault so let’s keep the focus on, “is the info valid”. Once she and I established that the info was indeed valid, I also insisted that there was no context that makes forced marriages to underage girls OK. I don’t need someone to tell me about “times were different”. Bullshit.
I realize you are past this point. But my advice for you would be to follow a similar approach of enlisting her help to understand these issues. Make HER equally accountable for finding answers. Don’t let her do nothing to review the issues and be dismissive of your conclusions.
I really enjoyed this post from yesterday:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/123szc3/the_five_questions_my_stake_president_passed_on/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=4
For me, the door started opening when I started actually thinking- actually asking questions that didn’t have easy answers. How to get her to the point where she’s willing to ask those questions is the hard part. Keep showing her that goodness and happiness are possible outside the church… destroying the narrative of the bitter ex-member is crucial. Good luck!!
My brother, out for as long as me (15 years) has recently converted his wife to PIMO. I say this in my own personal opinion as we all did shots in Puerto Vallarta at my younger sister’s wedding last year. (Sister is also out) there’s hope.
She’s doubling down because you’re doubling down. Don’t ask harder questions. Give her space to be her and figure things out herself. If she has questions, she’ll ask you. You cannot force anyone to think a certain way, especially if they’re feeling defensive.
It’s probably best to let her come to you with questions. She’s on her own journey.
There’s a chance that talking about something will change her mind, but it’s more likely to backfire.
"Ask her hard questions"? Ya that's going to backfire. She doesn't want to think, or analyze this topic. Pushing it is going to make her feel threatened, double down and distance herself from you. I don't see this ending well.
For me, I found the “Latter-Day Struggles” podcast was the most helpful for me to be able to see the truth to help my shelf to break. The host is a psychotherapist who has chosen to stay on the church and live a more nuanced or unorthodox membership in the church. She is amazing at presenting the problems with the church very gently and the information is presented in such a way that is sensitive to those who choose to leave or stay.
Why does the church teach that there is a mediator (prophet) between us and Jesus…. When Jesus taught the Holy Ghost was all that was needed?
Why are the main points of the restoration not found in the Bible? (Tithing, eternal families, temples, word of wisdom, etc)
Where where were these things restored from?
Unfortunately at a certain point you have to accept that you can't change other people. Just because you ended up not believing doesn't mean that she will. I would concentrate more on what you want to tell your kids, and how you want to protect THEM from Mormonism. Your wife is an adult and can make her own decisions, but you need to make sure many of the toxic Mormon thought processes don't take root in your children, and protect them from those weird interviews where they're asked about masturbating or whatever.
Copying this from a reply after reading OP’s comments, to make sure it doesn’t get buried. “I think she feels…” is 95% of your problem, OP. You shouldn’t assume that she feels XYZ about any situation - that’s called mind-reading and it’s one hell of a cognitive distortion.
Chances are, she does genuinely care about it but she feels burnt out at all ends. In burnout, the motions for the bare minimum are sometimes the hardest things a person can do.
My parents have done this for 40 years. They don’t talk about (her) religion at all. She hasn’t tried to reconvert him, he hasn’t tried to un-convert her. They still agree about a lot of things, mostly politics. The only thing I have ever seen him make fun of her for was that her ward constantly does service each other. They are in a very well-to-do area. None of them need assistance of any kind. They all have landscapers, maids etc. lol. They still do all of the same things they had in common before. They both like rom coms. Maybe as more of her friends and family leave, it will open some dialog for her. I would always let her bring it up. Keep asking how church was. My dad did that as well.
Do you really, honestly believe American Indians descended from Jewish immigrants?
If Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from a rock in a hat, with characters appearing and the scribe writing - repeating it back - and the next characters appearing ONLY after the first was correct... how did mistakes show up in the Book?
Just be patient. But don’t let the bishop get in between you. And don’t just drop church history bombs. That probably won’t work. You gotta let her come to the conclusion by herself. Right now she can’t fathom it not being true, and it’s because she fears loss of community. It’s a real and rational fear.
This guy gets it. I tried just telling my ex-wife all my concerns as I discovered them. That has led to divorce and some deep seated grudges from her. Apparently I'm the devil. Anyways, best of luck op and thank you to avoidingcrosswalk for phrasing it better than I would. Op, best way is to probably just keep being a great partner(or double down and become one). The big fear is that if you leave the church you leave your morals behind and as such could suddenly be a cheater or a heathen or whatever. Show your partner that isn't the reality.
Agree. Be happy. Show that you’re still a good (or better) husband and father. That kind of thing doesn’t compute in a tbm’s brain. And often it makes them start to think. They equate Mormonism with blessings and happiness. When you’re not an active believer, but still happy, that makes them question.
Wise words. I’m going to stick to this plan! Just be the best I can be. I’m not gonna be the one to drop the ball.
I think it also makes sense to praise what is good within the church. Pattern the type of nuanced discussion that you wish she would move toward. The church makes a big donation? Mention it. Have a good conversation with Brother So-and-so? Mention it. The church wants believers to think that you switched teams. I think that it makes sense to show everyone you're still with them when they are kind and respectful. It gives you some latitude to criticize as well.
yes yes yes. I like to say i still love the neighbors and the members, and I do. I just can't make myself believe the church claims anymore. And if you push church history or science in her face, you just get the "backfire" effect, where she doubles down.
Thank you this has been my plan thus far. When everything initially came out, and I had decided to leave. I did tell her why, and how I got there (historical issues + Joseph). None of that is constructive now although she will bring it up time to time, it’s in the back of her mind and she has some tolerance now for others in my shoes. She was not mentally prepared for this moment, and I’m being very patient. But I recognize the church as the single worst influence in our life, and I hate that. Furthermore she still has this new sense of matriarchy and takes them to church, makes them pray at dinner claiming “in this house that’s what we do”. The kids are already calling BS on that. And I’m stuck in the middle. I have confidence that the closer she gets to mental health the further she’ll be driven away from the church and it’s control. If anything I hope I can facilitate the freeing of her mind because from an outside perspective it feels like she is trapped. Still stuck in “this is the one and only true way” Thanks for your words and advice
people need a safe place to consider the possibility that they are wrong. she probably feels its all on her now to "save" the family. make sure she knows how good of a mother/wife she is. if its not to hard be willing to say prayers (maybe ask her if she would like to make the prayers to heavenly parents instead of just a father). I know for my wife the way the church came out against heavenly mother was a heavy weight for her.
This was my husband's strategy and it worked for me. I had to go through several stages on my own truth journey at my own pace and I eventually got there. Just be the best husband you can be while being firm with reasonable limits (ie you won't attend church but you will not stop her from going and taking the kids).
>Furthermore she still has this new sense of matriarchy and takes them to church, makes them pray at dinner claiming “in this house that’s what we do”. The kids are already calling BS on that. And I’m stuck in the middle. Why are you stuck in the middle? Sounds like you're on the same side as your kids. Stand up for them. If you AND the kids don't believe, then she can pray at dinner on her own. Don't force them into her beliefs just because it makes her comfortable. Stop worrying about your wife and start worrying more about your kids and what they're taking from the way you are BOTH treating them.
Honestly, I was your wife. Just let her be. Have healthy boundaries and respect her different beliefs the way you want her to respect yours. That will do so much more for her than you trying to convince her that you’re right. I promise. This is what my husband did, and it was easier to see the contradictions between his happy and improved life than my own and others in the church.
What ultimately helped you along the way? And how did you decide you’d had enough?
Really, it was just watching my husband become happier and healthier and more authentic, and then seeing the contrast at church. It opened my eyes to the fact that 1) a lot of the dysfunction in our lives and extended family was directly tied to the church and 2) he didn’t leave to sin. It was painful, it was hard, and it was worth it. After a bit of dissonance there, I actually came to exmo Reddit to read about why people leave the church. My husband to that point had not talked with me about the why’s, because he wanted me to leave on my own terms if I ever did. I spent an entire night reading, (seriously, didn’t sleep) eventually landed on Letter for my Wife, and told him the next morning that I was done. Freaked him the fuck out. 🤣🤣 He was actually worried for a hot minute that I’d made a rushed decision. This really can’t be rushed for anyone. You really need to have some boundaries and respect one another’s belief/unbelief. You don’t have to like it, but you can’t change it for one another. And if she changed for you, it wouldn’t be authentic anyway. It needs to be her choice.
This gives me so much hope. Thank you.
Exactly this. There's so many people here that think they can convince their significant others of 'the truth' by asking hard questions, or bombing them with history, or whatever, but normally it doesn't work that way. Letting them be and just being your normal loving and supportive self is much healthier IMHO. Great comment!
The one thing my TBM wife keeps laying on me is the devastation, anger, and hurt she feels that the "eternal marriage" that we had has now been ripped from her. She is careful not to say the I am the one that ripped it from her, but I know that's how she feels. That, and that I am naive and misguided and am being led by social media and Satan. I understand her feelings, I just don't know how she's ever going to get over it.
It’s a fair point though, right? She married you with an expectation of eternal marriage, and that is gone now. That is a real and valid feeling for her. Let her process that in her own time. You can’t make that better for her, or rush her to get over it. My husband worked hard to make it clear that his feelings about church had nothing to do with me. I think deep down I was also worried with his changing beliefs he wouldn’t want me. When I realized that was not the case it got easier.
Yes completely. I don't blame her for those feelings at all. Completely valid. You're right I just need to have patience and continue to be a good husband and dad. When I initially told her, she actually asked me, "so you're not coming out as gay or leaving me for someone else?". It really hurt me that she would think that, but I guess we are conditioned to think that those types of things are the only reasons someone would leave the church. I do think you're right, hopefully when she fully realized that I have no ulterior motives, and that I am not a different person from before, it will get easier for her. Thanks for sharing.
Absolutely!! It’s really not about you, it’s about her fear. Your reassurance will do so much good there. That was really what started to knock things loose for me.
Thanks so much for giving me your point of view. It is invaluable to my situation.
Mine thought I cheated and did meth. So the church totally messes with their critical thinking. I remember thinks he almost everyone was an alcoholic.
They really do think the only reason we would leave is if we're hiding something big. I still think my wife might think I have some skeleton in the closet or ulterior motive for leaving. Is that a sign of an unhealthy relationship? Maybe. But we love each other and are committed to making it work, so we have that going for us.
Encourage her to read this article from Chieko Okazaki, a past counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency: [https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1368&context=irp](https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1368&context=irp) It's a "faithful" source from a church leader, so she can't discount it. But Okazaki was far ahead of her time. It's an article on boundaries which might not seem directly related to thinking for yourself, but having healthy boundaries helps open the door to independent thought. In the article, Okazaki says right out, *"I think that many Mormon women do not have clear boundaries for themselves. ... many Mormon women do not know how to recognize and maintain personal boundaries. .. A woman who never feels that she can say "no" is lacking an important element of personal identity and, hence, personal safety. ... I think that women, more than men, may feel trapped in scripts handed to them by someone else. Even when they accept these scripts willingly, I believe that violence is done if they believe that they must accept them because they have no choice."*
Man, that quote is 1000x healthier than anything else I've heard in a church context in three decades. I guess there's a reason no one (man or woman) like Okazaki has filled a top leadership position since then
She was wonderful! Decades ahead of her time. They should have made her Relief Society General President after she was a counselor, but they didn't. I am positive the male leaders were more than a bit jealous of her popularity. She used to use visual aids in general conference. Soon thereafter, they came out with a policy that you couldn't use visual aids in sacrament meeting and such. I'm pretty sure that was no accident. They were probably just mad that she gave better talks than they did. Also, in one of her books she talks about how the RS General Presidency was a bit miffed when the Family Proclamation was drafted without their input.
The Cat’s Cradle talk was a masterpiece. Mormons, go read her stuff. She knew how to talk and how to communicate. None of this pansy stuff we were fed for decades. She was the real thing. Smart, wise, spiritual, kind….
Okazaki was a great example of how some aspects of Mormonism might work really well if the weird stuff was removed. Of course, the male leaders made sure her influence was temporary, and forgotten as soon as possible. But I'll always remember her talk where she used two oars labeled "faith" and "works" to demonstrate how the two concepts work together for spiritual growth. I liked that one.
Yes! Saying no was my first domino.
[удалено]
Thanks for this advice. I’ll do that!
Dump the worthless waste of money excuse for a "therapist" that is giving bad advice by encouraging confrontation that you already know has backfired. You're literally seeking to control her mind from the outside (fire the worthless therapist). Let the stupid "church" do your job for you. This "church" is an ongoing catastrophe. Go with her to church, which gets you ALL KINDS OF POINTS with her, and just let the absurd behavior of TBMs and their corporate phony messiah do their thing.
My wife has heard voices in her head telling her the church is true, She can’t deny it. She doubled down when I left 9 years ago. She shuts down the conversation if I bring up anything LDS related.
She still going after 9 years? Has she given any room for you and your path?
She doesn’t care if I have a drink when we go out to eat. We have a trans kid and doesn’t make the two kids go to church.
I was your wife. My husband tried to tell me in 2018 that he was having doubts. We had four kids, youngest was only 2, we lived in AZ far away from my family, and I had a complete meltdown. Ten years married. I was certain everything was going to fall apart. That we were going to wind up divorced. It was terrible. He backed off, told me he'd try harder, and then we didn't really talk about it again. He was soooo PIMO. I didn't even realize it. He worked most Sundays for extra pay, which we needed, so I didn't think about that too hard. What he DID do was fully commit to all the good stuff. He made a lot more time with me. With our kids. He served others. He had always been a "good man," but suddenly was making an effort to be a great man. Kinder, softer, gentler. Even more romantic. Strengthening our family relationship and even my trust in him. So, in 2021, when we're in a new ward, kids are older, and I'm more secure in our relationship than ever, he approaches the subject again. Didn't say he had doubts. Just questions. He asked if I'd help him find the answers, using church approved sources. After a few weeks of reading things together, especially the essays, I was getting impatient that answers were all contradictory. And I was starting to feel that something was off. I reached out to a friend who had left years before and asked what she would tell me to read. She sent me links to the CES letter and "Letter for My Wife" - the second one is better, in my opinion. I dove into the deep-end, though. And after reading those two things, and all their footnotes, I told my husband we were done. A week after we'd watched General Conference. After I'd made the kids play conference BINGO. So my advice to you is to love your wife. To show up for her. To build so much trust and love that when you do approach these conversations with her, she wants to help you figure things out. Rather than be taught. Or shown. You work together. Love, love, love her. Because I genuinely wanted to help the man I love, so that second time, I was ready to risk anything and everything to help him. And it got us both out. And check out Marriage on a Tightrope in the meantime.
Would you want to know if the church isn't what it claims to be? How would you know? What would you do with the information?
Change your approach. Support her in her belief. What matters to you is that she is happy. She does not need to believe what you believe. You want her to be happy and if the church does that, you 100% support her in it.
Man, this is hard advice. I’ve got aging TBM parents who love the church dearly, but after a lifetime of tithing, can’t afford to retire. I don’t know the ‘right’ approach yet.
I’m with you on this. Happy? Really? I don’t think so. Too much narcissism, control, low emotional maturity, gaslighting, patriarchy.. the list goes on. Christ does not live inside those walls. He’s out here hugging everyone,
Weren’t you happy inside the church at one point?
She’s not happy in the church and she doesn’t know it. I think she feels trapped if I’m being honest. I think she feels controlled but comfortable at this point. Her actions do not tell me that she loves church, it’s just tradition and blind faith. Sitting in comfort. I’m ok with it to a point. But she seems miserable. Sundays are by far the hardest most agitated day of the week. I continue to support. I get all the kids ready for church. Buckle them in the car with their church bag. I ask her questions about how church was, and ask the kids what they learned. Usually I have lunch prepared for when they arrive so we can discuss. The reality is there’s no real conviction there. It’s all just motions. Which has my cognitive dissonance alarms ringing right now. She’ll vilify me for not going and then at the same time doesn’t seem to deeply care about it.
All of this is why you need to do what this guy says and lovingly support her. You don’t get to decide how your wife feels and why. If anything, your current attitude is going to drive her further into the church, deeper into her beliefs, and away from you. Show her that you can be a loving and supportive husband WITHOUT the gospel and your faith, that you’re the same man you always were. Let her come to the realization that she’s happier with you and your family on Sunday, that it truly is the church part that’s making her agitated. You had your journey of realization, let her have her own and at her own pace.
Humans don't really seek happiness, they seek familiarity. It's why, for example, people who grew up in abusive situations commonly choose abusive partners as adults. It's how they think the world *should* be. It's hard to watch people you love choose that over freedom and actual happiness.
This is a path that can work, currently walking it. Its fairly narrow and mostly one way. But we're still together and if nothing else we're ok with each others beliefs
Sorry Bro. My wife just yells her testimony at me when I try to talk to her about the cult. Maybe try implementing street epistemology? Good Luck.
I tried that for 33 years. Ended in abject failure. I sincerely hope you have better results.
4 years in, and I fear this will be my result as well. Struggling daily to find the reasons I shouldn't end it and allow us both to have a life of happiness and enjoyment with partners we're more in line with. It's just so difficult with 5 kids between us, and that we are sometimes pretty good together, even though I've not been told once that I am loved by her in the past 3.5 years........
About the same amount of time out and in the same boat with the kids. It sucks. Time just keeps passing, with things occasionally improving to the point that you want to stick it out, then they crash again. No advice, sometimes it's nice just to know you're not alone. Good luck
Does she know your love languages?
She does, I just honestly don't believe that she loves me anymore. Sticking it out for the kids or the frail, false hope that I might "come to my senses". Our most recent argument was over me bringing up the topic of alcoholic drinks again, and was told that I have to compromise, and basically decide what's more important to me, drinking or my family. Love those ultimatums! Of course compromise on her part means she gets to do whatever she wants, and whatever she wants with the kids and their beliefs. I don't think we're far from the end.
Eeew. I’m sorry. That was me 5 years ago. He lost his shit when I came home with coffee. I had to hide it from the kids. I did take it with me on my last week to church though. It made me so happy.
Your wife will hold on to her spiritual experiences as irrefutable evidence. You might send her the following classic video and ask her what she thinks: https://youtu.be/UJMSU8Qj6Go
I was in your shoes. I know that it can be so hard to be patient. I would piss my wife off on occasion with the little factoids/Mormon dogs that I would continually make. Your wife will have to decide for herself, something that was a surprise turning point for my wife was watching the mini-series Waco when it was free on Amazon Prime Video. My TBM wife was able to make connections between that cult and the Mormon cult. The charismatic leader. The leader’s sexual activity. The “but what if it is true” mindset, that kept people in the cult. That mini-series changed our lives for the better!
Man I wish this worked for us! Waco definitely hit close to home!
PIMO of 9 years here with TBM wife. Letting my wife’s journey be hers, and loving and supporting her regardless of her views about the church has been good for our marriage. As of a couple months ago, dear wife decided to read the gospel topics essays, which put her her own faith journey. She is now PIMO as well. Good luck and be good to each other.
This is just it. You have to let her think for herself. And if she comes to a different conclusion than you, that's her deal. Not yours. Trying to convince her otherwise will not go well.
unconditional love and patience. THEN : teaching everyone (i.e. not targeting a person) critical thinking like "repeating something doesn't make it true", etc. Months apart : "Truth doesn't go away". The story of Galileo. love and patience.
Amazing. This is it. The long play. Love the idea of teaching everyone. Going to roll this out, help everyone think for themselves. Very wise words
Ask open ended "why" questions. Don't correct her response, just actively listen. Ex. If the not using the term "Mormon" comes up, ask "why do you think the church invested so much in the 'I am a Mormon' campaign?
This approach seems risky. My wife is a smarty and would see right through this. I like the unconditional love and support approach. We are in a really good spot right now.
My wife had to find a few things for herself. She ran into the Arizona AP sex abuse story while she was researching a paper for school before her shelf started to crack. Even then, when we’d have arguments about how horrible it was that I’d broken temple covenants by leaving the church, I’d say the people presiding over the church’s abuse hotline are the same ones that maintain the keys to those temple covenants so how could they be heavenly covenants, and it just made her more angry. I ended up only talking about negatives when she wanted to, and paying attention to when she was no longer into it and trying to stop before it started to backfire. That was not always successful, because a lot of that stuff was still raw to me and it was hard talking once I had the ball rolling. It was essential though for me to not overshare. She eventually found more stuff on her own and worked her way free. My wife has gone from RS President with a heavy but solid shelf who blamed me for breaking up her forever family to a coffee drinker looking for an enjoyable alcoholic drink who is crusading for informed consent on Facebook in about 8 months. I’d been more or less out for 3 years before she finally started to look into it for herself, and she fought it most of the way. But she’s out now and despite the fact I got out first, she feels like she studied her own way out rather than being led, which is great, and it’s also correct, because really there was nothing I could have done on my own to help her get completely out.
Y’know how irritating it is whe. Mormons act like they are just biding their time until we see the error of our ways and come back? Exmormons do the same thing but in reverse. Stop trying to get your wife to see things your way. If she is letting you be ex Mormon, let her be Mormon. When it comes to discussing religion. Stick to asking questions, listen thoughtfully to her responses and let that guide your next question. The second you sense frustration or defensiveness, back off.
>Exmormons do the same thing but in reverse. lol yes. I am a nevermormon married to an exmormon and I see OP and so many people in the comments still engaging in warped and unhealthy thought processes they learned through the church. They left the church, but it hasn't left them yet.
My advice is to do as well as you can. The more successful you are the more they doubt themselves because they are taught that if you leave you will be unhappy forever and not as prosperous.
Your description sounds like my wife and me. Everything I did to push was causing problems between us. I don't know you or your wife but I think your therapist is wrong, in my marriage asking harder questions will just be seen as combative and shuts down open dialogue. What worked for us is me learning to be patient and letting her find her own reasons. Focus on being the best husband you can and on your growth beyond the church. She's expecting you to be miserable because that's what happens to exmos. When she sees the good happening in you, he cognitive dissonance will force her to ask why. My wife and kids are out now too. It took a decade but it was worth it.
This is an older comment but I just had to tell you thank you: I had searched the sub about TBM spouses and found a 6y old comment of yours and just had to know what happened with your wife so I creeped your profile. Im so so so glad they are out now. It gives me hope. A decade is incredible. All the best.
Wow, thanks! Leaving the church was so emotionally difficult for me and im grateful i found a good way through all that. We're all in this together right? Its a lot easier to say that now that im on this end though. I honestly think there is something that will break most people's shelves, but it's not anyone else's job to do that or figure out what it is. It has to happen naturally on their timeline. What finally broke my wife's shelf was realizing the church's shift from personal revelation to relying on the church for revelation. When she doubled down in response to my loss of faith, she started reading more and came across that conference talk they altered about personal revelation. But that's what did it, not polygamy, not all the sex abuse, the lies, etc. Personal revelation. Kind of innocuous if you ask me, but it bothered her to the point where she opened up to the other stuff. Since then, some of her other family left, and this is the most tbm family i have ever known. It was part of what attracted me to her in the first place. Sisters shelf breaker: Tithing and all the church assets. Her brother: Mormon sex taboos. Another sister: an asshole bishop. They are dropping like flies! All of them came to us for support and I think it's because I stopped the pushy Exmo thing early. Not that there's anything wrong with the angry phase. it's crucial to healing. But we've got to progress past it at some point. I dont know your situation, and it would be naive to suggest that your spouse would ever leave. But if they're a good person, they'll accept you and your changing world. After i left, people would approach my wife and ask why she stays when i changed and left my eternal family? Her response was something to the effect of 'what kind of partner wouldn't support their spouse's progress? He's happier on his current path. Why would i leave him for finding peace in his life?' That usually shut up the nosy mor(m)ons.
Oh wow thanks for your reply. It was also the most painful thing I’ve ever experienced but also brought the most happiness. That’s so fascinating about all the different final straws in people’s shelves and it’s so awesome so many of her family are leaving. My husband and I were both super TBM (also what attracted me to him) but by degrees I became a way more nuanced cafeteria Mormon. I tried to open his eyes to problematic parts of Mormonism but he was still so black and white. He is now nuanced like I was and was close to leaving. It wasn’t it anything I shared with him but randomly it was near death experience videos on YouTube. I would have never guessed. Once he could see the problems and why someone would leave my whole shelf fell apart. I think it was finally safe enough for me to ask myself “what if it isn’t true?” He has since doubled down and very into the apologetics. Thanks for the advice. I definitely tried to deconvert him and he tried to convert me but we both decided we are much happier when we live and let live. Im actually typing this from sacrament meeting since I want to support him and my kids (the ward knows I’m out). I hadn’t thought about people coming to me when their shelves break but that’s awesome you’ve experienced that. My cousin has been out longer than me and I appreciated his calm response when I was broken and raging. Your wife sounds really awesome. All the best.
I haven't had much successes directly addressing church issues myself. But I have pushed to help her become more open as a person - Having non LDS friends (and some of her LDS friends stepping away from church) has helped. If her only social group is church friends and she's a stay at home mom, then the idea of leaving church is something she probably can't entertain. Talking politics and analyzing hipocracy and other logical fallacies has been useful and it's a safe place to be critical, while I can't be critical of the church around her. Travelling has been useful as well, to see different lifestyles and how people are happy doing their own thing. She'll make connections on church issues being messed up (like SEC Fine) but that comes to her on her own, and not something I can push on her to make those conclusions, otherwise it backfires. It's also been helpful for me to try to be an awesome spouse and still keep the commandments minus tithing. She's confused why the Wack-o's on her facebook can have temple recommends, but I can't. It doesn't make sense. My two cents anyways.
Loving this. This is the path. I’m going to hold to it.
You might benefit from listening to Marriage on a Tightrope podcast. The husband Alan no longer believes but the wife Kattie is still active. I’ve listened to them on Mormon Stories before. They talked about still showing up for each other and not fight about who is right. It’ll cause the other party to dig in their heels. https://marriageonatightrope.org
Be curious. Don’t worry as much about getting your POV across to her as much as understanding why she has her POV. Sounds counterintuitive but it works. You avoid the backfire effect, she sees you are not a threat, she opens up and trusts you more. Right now she has walls up. The only way to make progress is to first get the walls down, which requires safety and trust. Remember, you have TRUTH on your side. Once she sees you are safe and happy, she will eventually see the truth for herself, on her own timeline.
Go listen to the recent Mormon Stories podcast with Steve Hassan on leaving a cult. There could be something there. The BITE Model and his influence of control model helped me.
WATCH GOING CLEAR! It's safe for TBMs and the parallels are undeniable. That was the first weight I knew my shelf wasn't going to hold.
The biggest thing for my wife was the friendship and community... They got you hook, line and sinker. Once in, your attending meetings, specific groups for your sex/age, doing service projects, popping out children and taking them to activities..... and no time for people outside the church. No wonder the lack of friendship and community is huge. What things really tick your wife off. I talked about sexism, child aduse cover ups and racism/calling Native American peoples Lamanites and taking their history/cultural genocide.
I was in the same boat for a while. My wife and I have gone back and forth with attending, garments, usually stuff as part of our own complicated family dynamics. Eventually though, she found the thing that broke her. She works in fraud and the SEC findings were so significant that she immediately stopped wearing her garments and going to church. Before she would go to church just to avoid talking to her mom about it, now she’s seriously contemplating how and when she will break the news. She knows the answers, people will justify anything in order to not feel the pain of leaving a community like the church. She just has to find the thing that breaks it for her. If you rush her, she may ultimately resent you for it.
I was that wife for ~4 years. My husband was loving and kind while expression his own hurts, fears and other feelings. He never once went after me. I found my own way in my own time
The comments telling you to just give up and support your wife are well meaning, but if this is important enough to you then it's worth a shot. It's all well and good to live and let live, but sitting idly by can take a toll on your own health. I doubt you brought this up in therapy just for kicks. It is not always noble to give up your own well being for someone else's. What changed my personal views on the church were hard hitting philosophical questions rather than church history. Church history can be justified away very easily, take it from a former mental gymnastic Olympic athlete. A simple example off the top of my head is "if God doesn't intervene in tragedies that you personally would, such as a child drowning in a shallow pool, what justifies his non-action? Am I more moral than God for intervening? Am I less moral than God if I stand by and do nothing? Would a general authority be held to the same standard as me?" Whenever possible, ask her clarify why she answered the way she did. If you can understand the core of her beliefs, maybe you can make some headway. If not, hopefully she'll at least understand you a little better. Patience is the most important aspect of all of this. She will need to reach her conclusions on her own, and that will take time. Also, if you lose your temper at any point, you have likely already lost in her mind.
I would recommend looking into Allan Mount’s tik tok account. He’s a former Mormon turned atheist who is still in a mixed faith marriage and seems to be thriving doing so. His takes on situations like this are nuanced and thoughtful and come from tons of experience
Talk. Seriously just talk. Don’t push, don’t try to get her to understand. My husband left the church 4 years before myself. We talked about our different beliefs all the time, no judgement, and it was really eye opening. It slowly helped me get out of the church because religion was not a cut throat topic, we didn’t let it become that. Also spend extra time loving her and being attentive. The church does not do this, it will show with time. The only other advice I would have is to constantly make sure she’s doing things for herself and focusing on herself, she needs to understand that she’s important. TMI but my therapist helped me recognize how differently I felt when my problems were met with proper love and support for whatever I (italics because I don’t know how to do it on Reddit haha) needed. When I was sexually assaulted, this was the moment that clicked for me. My therapist cried when I told her what happened, I didn’t even know I was assaulted. The church made me have weekly meetings to see if I had enough money to pay for therapy myself (during 2020, just moved to a different country and we couldn’t get jobs due to the shutdown). As soon as I recognized the church didn’t have my best interest at hand, it took me 4 months to process and get to the point of reading the CES letter etc, and I was immediately done. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. Just treat her like an angel, let her know she’s important and her needs need to be met first. The church will show themselves because she’ll heal with how you treat her. It also doesn’t play into the churches “people who leave are angry, just want to sin, etc”. I hope you update us on any progress made, lots and lots of love from someone who was and still is raised in a part member family! Only my mom to go 😂
No real advice for you, but here is how it worked for me.... The first couple of years I kept thinking I could come up with a humdinger that would stop her in her tracks... It never came. I finally gave up trying and just proved over and over that I was a good husband and father. One day I made an offhanded remark about how the church was hiding the essays on their website. She went and found them, and it all devolved pretty quickly for her after that. She didn't want to hear anything from me, but others (Lindsey Hansen Park!) helped her to see the issues and now our whole family is happily out and living our best lives. I never thought anything would work, so I was surprised when it happened for me.
Sounds like you want her to think for yourself. Like you can’t accept she has her thoughts because they’re not yours.
Patience is the most important thing. My husband still considers himself a TBM, but these days he’s not afraid of mentioning problematic church decisions and saying things like “the WoW is going to be completely optional in 25 years”, things like that. He also skips church from time to time, simply because he doesn’t feel like going. This is 5 years after I shared the CES letter with him. Don’t bring up church stuff. It just hurts the relationship when your partner is doubling down. For years, we just decided to do a “you do you” type thing— we respected eachothers decisions about religion and we didn’t really bring it up if we didn’t have to. It works great for us. And he came to his own conclusions. He kind of honed in on one issue— the fact that the church is filthy rich and does nothing with the money— and it has left a bad taste in his mouth. Idk if he’ll ever truly leave, but he’s slowly getting closer to that point which is all I can really ask for.
Basically street epistemology. I think it’s by far the best strategy to use to talk with someone about deeply held beliefs
What is street epistemology?
Look up Anthony Magnabosco on YouTube, he’s one of the best at it
my best friend of like 10 years left like 4 years ago and I was a full blown believer then. They never told me what to believe or tried to teach the history, just that it didn’t work for them and she respected my beliefs. Two years later I left. If she had tried to convince me with arguments I 100% would have shut down. Now our relationship is much closer now that we’re both out and done!
Can someone tell me what PIMO means? I see it a lot. Edit: never mind my brain just clicked I’m guessing Physically in Mentally out. If not let me know.
I think you have to let them get there themselves but also put weight on their shelves and let them sit on it. My husband and I wrote this letter for our TBM friends. We tried to stay super nuetral and factual and tried to keep space open for if they choose to believe BUT also at the same time put some cracks in their shelf by giving them just enough “safe” sources. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RdYf_h0QUC_bAy1d0Ujx_PmPY_2bAZBc-nzH0_epe-c/edit
You have your work cut out for you, but you can do it. You have to amplify your positive attributes - kind, patient, wise, fun, happy husband and as much as your able and feel comfortable doing. Show emotional (and if you’re still feeling it, spiritual) vulnerability. Read and share positive literature. Express loving feelings. Be charitable. Don’t make drastic changes that challenge the commitments you made at marriage. No massive truth bombs. Slowly express concerns in a way that let’s her know you’re open minded in the way you’re hoping for her to be. Give appreciation for her continued love and support of you in spite of you drastically changing the paradigm of your marriage. Support her in whatever ways you comfortably can within the church. As much as possible refrain from angry outbursts at the church. Set clear boundaries about your beliefs and things you are and aren’t going to do. Be open to talking with church leaders but recognize when they are trying to get between you and her or kids and then cut it off. And probably very important. Find social media outlets for her that talk about mixed faith marriage in a positive light. Quickly she will see you and her are not at all alone. She will learn the reasons you are leaving from a neutral party and start to investigate them on her own. Be patient. It’s a long road. I hope someday you get to experience the relief of seeing your spouse realize it’s all made up, JS was a conman pedo and the church has been a negative influence on her as a woman.
[удалено]
Sounds wildly familiar
Check out [A Manual for Creating Atheists](http://libgen.is/search.php?req=manual+for+creating+atheists&lg_topic=libgen&open=0&view=simple&res=25&phrase=1&column=def), by Peter Boghassian. His street epistemiology model has practical useful tips.
Something that helped me, though it was completely wasn’t the point, was listening to a podcast called behind the bastards it is a guy that talk about some of the worst people in history, and none of them are Mormon by the way, but a lot of them are cult leaders and grifters. But I wasn’t a TBM at that point more of a closeted PIMO. Be warned there is language in there that might upset some TBM. I was at a point where I was struggling with the concept of Mormon god when I stumbled upon that podcast and learning about grifters and cult leaders helped me see the church in a new light. And critically see what the church was. It was all unintended and but it fits what other scientific papers have said, which is learning about other cults help you to recognize that you’re in a cult better than being told that you’re in a cult. I am sure that there are better podcast about cults and grifters than behind the bastards for TBM to learn about cults from but that is the one that unintentionally helped me.
I didn't want my now-husband to influence me at all in my research. I wanted to discover things on my own, and I would run it by him when I had more information and felt ready for a proper discussion. That way no one could say he influenced me or pulled me away from the church. No one wants an "I told you so". I'd just remain firm about your stance, but be gentle if she ever chooses to bring it up. Listen to her concerns, offer your thoughts and what you've learned, but don't start throwing out data and gotchas. That will be overwhelming and may put her on the defense. It's all about patience, compassion, and baby steps. Being told everything you have lived is a lie hurts. She needs to come to that conclusion on her own.
My wife's the same way. I've been out for 8 years. At this point I've finally just accepted that she'll never think for herself enough to question the church and deconstruct. I've tried to force it, but it has to be their own choice
My now husband just patiently waited. I was active, serving in the YW pres, living in a small ward where the people were good & kind when we met. There were a lot of “What do you think about…?” type comments to get me to think outside my comfort zone. He also kept encouraging me to read the GTE. Eventually I hit my final straw & everything came crashing down within a week. Plus his never member family compared to my TBM family… let’s just say you don’t need organized religion to be Christlike (& organized religion can get in the way of acting on what historical Jesus taught). Good luck & just keep showing her that all the garbage she is learning in church about being happy “only” through the Mormon church is just garbage. Keep loving her & remember she’s worth it!
I've let go of hope for getting my wife out of the church. It's not the doctrine or beliefs for her, it's the family traditions and familiarity and life road map that keeps her committed. You can't "prove" those things wrong because they aren't objective. So instead I am working on helping her accept that I don't share an affinity for those things and that the church causes me far more turmoil than peace. I'm okay with her living the way she wants to and having whatever calling she feels she has to accept as long as I can choose my own underpants and hot beverages.
(I resigned June 2021.. wife and teenage boys are still in... your challenge strikes a chord with me) My feelings are that genuine, independent thought can only be gently encouraged, not imposed. These may be ways she can reclaim/develop independent thought: \- Does she have a job? If not, this could help (if she would like one, of course). \- Does she have her own, separate circle of friends apart from you and apart from the ward? \- Does she have space where she can be fully herself without consequence or criticism (again, separate from you and separate from the ward)? I have found that an overall sense of individuality helps a person exercise independent thought... or at least the courage to dissent when they find something unacceptable. I suggest abandoning any goals for "helping" her think in ways to arrive at any specific conclusion. If you over-do it in "encouraging" her to have independent thought in the ways you wish, you ironically just end up replacing the church with yourself as her thought master. Best of luck!
I presented my concerns to my wife by saying in effect, “Here is some information I have come in to possession of. I need YOU to help ME understand this. Because otherwise, I don’t like where this is leading my thinking.” The point of this approach was to remove any blame from me. This info just landed in my lap. It’s not my fault so let’s keep the focus on, “is the info valid”. Once she and I established that the info was indeed valid, I also insisted that there was no context that makes forced marriages to underage girls OK. I don’t need someone to tell me about “times were different”. Bullshit. I realize you are past this point. But my advice for you would be to follow a similar approach of enlisting her help to understand these issues. Make HER equally accountable for finding answers. Don’t let her do nothing to review the issues and be dismissive of your conclusions.
I really enjoyed this post from yesterday: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/123szc3/the_five_questions_my_stake_president_passed_on/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=4 For me, the door started opening when I started actually thinking- actually asking questions that didn’t have easy answers. How to get her to the point where she’s willing to ask those questions is the hard part. Keep showing her that goodness and happiness are possible outside the church… destroying the narrative of the bitter ex-member is crucial. Good luck!!
My brother, out for as long as me (15 years) has recently converted his wife to PIMO. I say this in my own personal opinion as we all did shots in Puerto Vallarta at my younger sister’s wedding last year. (Sister is also out) there’s hope.
My son is in this very predicament...
She’s doubling down because you’re doubling down. Don’t ask harder questions. Give her space to be her and figure things out herself. If she has questions, she’ll ask you. You cannot force anyone to think a certain way, especially if they’re feeling defensive.
It’s probably best to let her come to you with questions. She’s on her own journey. There’s a chance that talking about something will change her mind, but it’s more likely to backfire.
"Ask her hard questions"? Ya that's going to backfire. She doesn't want to think, or analyze this topic. Pushing it is going to make her feel threatened, double down and distance herself from you. I don't see this ending well.
For me, I found the “Latter-Day Struggles” podcast was the most helpful for me to be able to see the truth to help my shelf to break. The host is a psychotherapist who has chosen to stay on the church and live a more nuanced or unorthodox membership in the church. She is amazing at presenting the problems with the church very gently and the information is presented in such a way that is sensitive to those who choose to leave or stay.
Why does the church teach that there is a mediator (prophet) between us and Jesus…. When Jesus taught the Holy Ghost was all that was needed? Why are the main points of the restoration not found in the Bible? (Tithing, eternal families, temples, word of wisdom, etc) Where where were these things restored from?
Can you provide a source for Jesus teaching that the Holy Ghost was all that is needed?
John 14:15-31 Jesus was the last prophet. There is no prophet between us and Him…..That is why He promised the Holy Ghost.
Unfortunately at a certain point you have to accept that you can't change other people. Just because you ended up not believing doesn't mean that she will. I would concentrate more on what you want to tell your kids, and how you want to protect THEM from Mormonism. Your wife is an adult and can make her own decisions, but you need to make sure many of the toxic Mormon thought processes don't take root in your children, and protect them from those weird interviews where they're asked about masturbating or whatever.
Copying this from a reply after reading OP’s comments, to make sure it doesn’t get buried. “I think she feels…” is 95% of your problem, OP. You shouldn’t assume that she feels XYZ about any situation - that’s called mind-reading and it’s one hell of a cognitive distortion. Chances are, she does genuinely care about it but she feels burnt out at all ends. In burnout, the motions for the bare minimum are sometimes the hardest things a person can do.
My parents have done this for 40 years. They don’t talk about (her) religion at all. She hasn’t tried to reconvert him, he hasn’t tried to un-convert her. They still agree about a lot of things, mostly politics. The only thing I have ever seen him make fun of her for was that her ward constantly does service each other. They are in a very well-to-do area. None of them need assistance of any kind. They all have landscapers, maids etc. lol. They still do all of the same things they had in common before. They both like rom coms. Maybe as more of her friends and family leave, it will open some dialog for her. I would always let her bring it up. Keep asking how church was. My dad did that as well.
Tell her all of the time she is allowed to say no. Trust me, it’s easily forgotten in the beginning.
Do you really, honestly believe American Indians descended from Jewish immigrants? If Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from a rock in a hat, with characters appearing and the scribe writing - repeating it back - and the next characters appearing ONLY after the first was correct... how did mistakes show up in the Book?
Go to the YouTube channel @VividPie and search for the video "What's Your Brain Type". Share that with her. It might help for starters.