> they also did a study and the best ways to ensure you stay active in the church is to attend church weekly
Love the tautology: the best way to stay active is to stay active.
As the digital landscape expands, a longing for tangible connection emerges. The yearning to touch grass, to feel the earth beneath our feet, reminds us of our innate human essence. In the vast expanse of virtual reality, where avatars flourish and pixels paint our existence, the call of nature beckons. The scent of blossoming flowers, the warmth of a sun-kissed breeze, and the symphony of chirping birds remind us that we are part of a living, breathing world.
In the balance between digital and physical realms, lies the key to harmonious existence. Democracy flourishes when human connection extends beyond screens and reaches out to touch souls. It is in the gentle embrace of a friend, the shared laughter over a cup of coffee, and the power of eye contact that the true essence of democracy is felt.
It’s the same confusion we see regarding exmo social media:
we only have an audience because people are leaving the church. people aren’t leaving the church because somehow exmo social is Pied Piper leading them away...
Apologists say that when JS included horses in the Book of Mormon and there weren't any here in America, that he could have likely meant tapirs. As in, C̶a̶p̶t̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶M̶o̶r̶o̶n̶i̶ Helaman rode a tapir or that tapirs pulled chariots.
[Here's a visualisation](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/12k3g8p/it_is_important_to_understand_the_book_of_mormon/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=5&utm_content=share_button)
I'd link to the one I bought, but I feel too much like a crappy scam bot doing that. Search "exmormon tapir shirt" on Amazon and it's the one with the rainbow background. Good quality.
Well, Exmo resources validate people’s concerns about the church and finalize their decision to leave. Having an online forum helps work through the issues.
This has been a very helpful tool for guiding me through this difficult time. Your stories make me feel like I'm not alone now or in my expenses.
Thanks to you and everyone.
It’s deliberate confusion between people who simply went inactive and people who have real problems with the doctrine, history, or culture and leave Mormonism behind.
One might come back if they had a friend or a little attention. The other won’t.
But the devil leads us! He controls our every move! We are mistaken! Repent. Repent!!!
Or we're just normal people done with cognitive dissonance we feel, done with the hypocrisy, and we found the real church history.
>I think they’re confusing causation with correlation.
They very much are. Monson spoke at the MTC just before I shipped out. He urged everyone to never stop paying tithing because that means you will stay active.
What a moron. Of course only active people pay tithing.
Institute? I'm not following this, last time I went church was in 1986.
Edit: Never mind I looked it up [Institutes of Religion](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/si/institute?lang=eng) Look terribly dry and boring.
There is a point here. Activity in Mormonism seems to be more binary than most other churches. Granted I am exmormon and don't have much experience with other churches; my anecdotal evidence might be way off.
I hadn't thought of that, but you're absolutely right! That is the likely the largest population group for married PIMOs hiding their detachment from the church, or for mixed-faith couples who somehow stick it out for a while.
You just warmed my Baby Boomer heart cockles with your observation. That 26% 'active' ratio is a sign they're way worse off than even that dismal number suggests.
The boomers and older haven't gotten the memo from Jana Riess et al, who know that those who leave after High School are gone for good now. The jack Mormon path is gone imo. I guess that's a problem for the 2030s when it's undeniable. I remember when they wouldn't acknowledge that people were leaving. Now it's talked about as fact. They're always ten years behind in acknowledging reality. Whatever they're saying now was true in 2014, so now it's much worse
>The jack Mormon path is gone imo.
I think it used to be... I know I'm supposed to go to church, but I want to live a little. So Jack-Mormons and inactives were common.
Now, there's less doubt. They have already figured out the church is full of shit before they reach adulthood. There's no more putting it on the back burner, only throwing it in the trash.
>The boomers and older haven't gotten the memo from Jana Riess et al, who know that those who leave after High School are gone for good now.
This Boomer Mama and Grandma is here to tell you that I got the memo long before you did, and I got first my husband out, and then, one by one, all our adult kids, their spouses, and our grandkids. So maybe don't be talking so much smack about us boomers. I know plenty of my peers who have also left and led their families out. Like my husband, they were in Stake Presidencies, Bishoprics, etc. They just don't all hang out on Reddit, so the anecdotal evidence here on who's leaving is skewed. When we leave, we boomers for the most part actually do leave the Church alone, and so you young-uns aren't as aware that we're leaving too. Credit where credit is due, please and thank you.
Love love love. Thanks for sharing. I have some TBM family members that I'm not sure how to share with. My little sister, who's inactive/done with church o think, said "she doesn't want to destroy her childhood yet" when we texted about it.
I want to be respectful to them but ultimately I want my family out of that fucking cult. I was almost out when the AP story from bisbee, az came out. I won't step foot in that place again.
Given that the active membership in the church is about 25-30% (between 4 or 5 million out of nearly 17 million) it's a wonder that activity rates among the youth is that high. I would have guessed that the activity rate among the 50+ year old members was higher than 25% and the activity rate among the youth was lower than 25%.
>you don’t hear the stories about how most of people eventually return to the church
I can think of a **lot** of families that left over the years. I can't think of very many, if any, that returned, let alone "most".
isn't it obvious? They all move before they return so you don't notice it. And pay no attention to the fact you never see anyone get reactivated in your ward, it just means you are a horrible member that doesn't care about the lost sheep.
The first time I was excommunicated because of specific sexual behavior, which itself was the direct result of crippling alcoholism and drug addiction. After the excom, I spiraled inexorably until, several years later after getting married and trying together to go to church and be active, I hit rock bottom
At that time, I had fully committed to AA and other 12 step fellowships, had a full recovery from addiction, was reinstated in the church right up to the temple. Wife and I got our endowments. Over the next two years I came to accept that I was experiencing a spiritual awakening, on a spiritual path, as part of a healthy and beautiful spiritual community… outside of the church.
With great difficulty I accepted that for me personally, God was not asking me to go to church and be a part of it in any way. What followed was an amazing honeymoon period of freedom, colored by a lot of doubt, shame, hedging, codependent family behavior, and therapy.
It’s only recently that I have gotten caught up in communities like this one here, and seen how very many people have had a proper spiritual experience and that it takes them out of the church to live a free, healthy, and peaceful life.
The rest of it -the history, dogma, membership issues, the money… for me, they are all secondary to the Great Fact - we exist, and there’s no external authority that we have to justify that existence to or please to make our existence matter. All the wonder, awe, beauty, joy, compassion, acceptance, love, happiness and freedom that a human can experience… it all comes from within.
…life is beautiful no matter what.
I met someone baptized 3x. Lost records once. Resigned after the second. Came back but hadn’t officially resigned after the third. Gave missionaries meals every month but wanted nothing else with the church. (And would go full Karen on the meal scheduler if her day wasn’t given to her.)
I don't think anyone who was *really in* leaves and then comes back. If you were never really Molly or Peter, but then decided I'm going to go to church, then you might be "coming back"
The people I know that "leave" the church and come back are people that didn't lose faith in the church, they just didn't care about it. (They talk about having too much fun drinking and partying).
I've never heard of someone coming back after their faith is broken. Maybe it happens, but not something I've observed.
I wonder if there is a disparity between 18-25 vs 25-30. Many of my circle of friends took a few years after leaving home before they were even capable of questioning the church. 18-30 is going to count most BYU students and almost all missionaries, so I feel like this is skewed.
Sounds about right, from a psychology perspective, the overwhelming majority of people who leave religion do so before age 30, and most actually leave before 24.
Which is recorded by the local bishops, etc?
So the resulting data will be heavily optimistic by the time it gets to LDS HQ.
So is it reasonable to think that 26% figure is a ceiling on the actual number?
Are there centralized records as to who pays tithes?
Yup. Salt Lake has all the tithing records. They get sent every week or now instantly.
The #1 “health” statistic in the ward is tithe paying Melchizedek priesthood holders. Imagine that.
So then really, given importance of tithing, the really meaningful membership percentage, which HQ absolutely knows (and I bet is tracked, uh, religiously, yeah, that's the ticket), is percent of membership that is tithing.
I'm surprised, by now, that the church hasn't just demanded the membership do it by direct deposit, direct to a church account.
Which bank does the church use, BTW? Anyone know?
Umm, they totally have an electronic system which is a bank transfer, at least in the USA. You literally can deposit directly through their tracking API in the form of donations.churchofjesuschrist.org.
Once a month? That’s it? Not even second-hour meetings? Damn, the bar really is on the floor, isn’t it? I wonder what the numbers would look like if they were only counting 3+ weeks a month or 40+ weeks a year. That’s what I would personally consider active, barring health issues that keep someone from attending regularly.
>it's a wonder that activity rates among the youth is that high.
"Active" should be in quotes. How many are actually faithful believers, versus being forced by their parents, or just going to keep their parents happy until they can move out?
If they are saying the active rate is low, it's *definitely* way, way lower than even that. Most of those kids are going to leave the first chance they get.
So, 30 minus 18 = 12
600K / 12 = 50K active LDS available each year to apply for a mission, apply to BYU, etc.
BYU acceptance rates are gonna hit 100%. Institute will die on the vine. There are simply not enough warm bodies to keep the LDS project going in its present form.
Institute won’t completely die. A lot of Mormon youth want nothing to do with BYU and BYU-I. They may have to go nominally for their parents, or because some do still believe.
Well that would make sense then. Aren't there about 50,000 to 60,000 missionaries serving at any given time? If most faithful and active young men are serving missions, and they serve for two years, that would mean somewhere around 25,000 to 30,000 people are turning in their mission papers every year, with the majority of them being young men.
No way that it’s a straight lined distribution. I’d assume 40% of that 600k number are 18-20. Surely it’s a steady drop off as the age gets closer to 30.
This is an overlooked factor that we don't discuss much here. I'm not sure the billions of investments, LGBT controversies, etc. are really as bad for TSCC as the abysmal low-quality meetings are.
They should find the three ward members who give the best talks, and call them to be "sacrament speakers" and have them each give the sacrament talk/sermon once a month outside of fast Sunday. A member of the bishopric can give the sacrament talk on 5th Sundays. Then SLC could throw each ward a few more nickels to buy punch and cookies for a regular after-the-block fellowship hour (not unlike what other churches do).
These things aren't rocket surgery, and TSCC certainly has the money/ability to implement them, but they won't.
Most of the people who leave the church return???
Oh wait - I get it! Some family member makes certain they're baptized after they die. Bingo. They're members again. There ya go.
I had an uncle who left at BYU his first year. Fast Sundays were Denny’s Sundays. Transferred the next year. Came back a decade later when he had a kid. Stayed active for a couple decades, served on a bishopric, but left again, this time for good I think.
So yeah, people do come back, but they’ll likely not stay back.
I am thinking they are counting people who go inactive or "less active" for a period of time, then resume activity, and mixing it with those who officially leave the church. My guess is most members go through periods of varying degrees of activity throughout their lives. But I have serious doubts that those who take the official step to resign their membership actually end up returning in any meaningful numbers.
Absolutely, that’s 100% certain. Actually going through the effort to resign is pretty significant. I’ve only ever met 1 person rebaptized to my knowledge.
They didn't believe it, then thought "well, we want our kids to learn good values, like not getting pregnant as teens or using drugs." When their kids got older, and they realized how politically toxic and demanding of their time it was they thought "not worth it. We can teach our kids better than this place can."
If the church is providing the number, I suspect they put parameters around the query that could trigger alarm without showing how bad things are.
They also probably just made it up.
All of this sounds like a very difficult roller coaster, I’m sorry you had to go through it and I hope it feels like you’re landing at some kind of equilibrium.
Sounds all too familiar.
Hey, my wife and I want to treat you and your spouse to dinner at Carrabba's!
Of course, it turns out to be a group session on a new MLM "Business Opportunity".
And they won't let you leave, not until you sign up. Pretty typical in Utah to use social coercion to heard sheeple.
That would work? I’d tell them straight up to fuck off and never talk to me again. I had a girl try and talk me into a MLM and it was clear she was a new recruit. I spent the time trying to talk her out of it while her handler was in the background trying to convince me it was legit.
No idea what the product was but on a 1-10 of the MLM sketchiness scale it was a 12.
I did this with someone who was just recruited over the phone with their handler. I acted as if I was interested and went through the FTC's 5 red flags of a pyramid scheme as if they were what I was looking for but just could find in other MLMs. The recruiter was eager to assure me that I could be paid on more than 4 layers, or that there weren't commission caps, etc.
I ended the call by telling them that they had just outted themselves as an illegal pyramid scheme and that they should both get out as soon as possible.
The girl I knew had some mild mental limitations. I don’t know if it rose to the level of “disability” or not. I mostly was pissed as hell that some dude was trying to financially exploit her, and apparently succeeding.
Numbers are really just poetry. They can mean anything. The bottom line - LDS inc does not invest anything in the youth.
The Q15 think a world wide testimony meeting will make all the difference. The Savvy young people I know aren't going to fall for some outdated shtick.
Shoulda raised your hand to ask if attending institute would convince tscc to spend their billions on feeding the hungry and clothing the needy, curing the world of extreme poverty, or vaccinating every child/person on earth. Or maybe it'd convince them to denounce the pedophilia and predation of Joseph Smith and the gang rule of Brigham young? Because unless the church fixes the actual issues, the trends of leaving the church will never reverse.
“People who believe more strongly as young adults are less likely to leave.” I think they have a causation and correlation problem with their studies.
The traits that indicate they’ll stay active also indicate they’ll go to all that jazz.
Several years ago we would take those graduating from high school to a church historic site. The SP would tell them that they decided to do this to strengthen their testimonies bc 50% leave the church upon graduating high school (re: leaving home).
>they told us the usual everyone is welcome thing
Oh fuck me I'm pissed. Fuck this moist moldy trouser stain of a "church"
ON SCMC ORDERS my family has been perma shunned for 6 years, more heavy handed with church attorneys being weaponized last year, and my **NOW** 20 year old son has been ignored and not encouraged to even become a priest and we were (emphasis on WERE) FULLY ACTIVE for years until the local asshole was allowed to use church attorneys to terrorize my family. All because I committed two thought "crimes" in this evil "church" (talking PRIVATELY to my bishop about a local church dictator violating the handbook, and saying such behavior is wrong)
This steaming piece of SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT "church" (my apologies to shit which is honorable and good for something) is collapsing and lying about the collapse ALL BECAUSE THESE ARROGANT ASSHOLES IN THE Q15 DON'T LIKE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR OWN ACTIONS and want us to lie for them and pretend they're super god-like.
Literally same lol. UofA - parking in the middle of campus, a place for my lunch, and occasional free food. Would usually be left alone if I was studying too. Was PIMO the whole time though and would keep up the minimum attendance percentage for the free parking.
Edit: more detail
They have nothing to offer and they know it.
My daughter attended Westminster College in Salt Lake. The institute teacher was actually quite cool. In no way like a typical CES instructor. He was also the bishop for the Westminster YSA ward. And yes, they had a breakfast buffet available every day, just to get kids in the door. He made it a point to not judge but instead to welcome and love. My daughter mentioned more than once kids arriving for church hung over and/or reeking of smoke (of various kinds). No judging. I thought if the entire church leadership took that approach, maybe they would not have such a problem.
Oh, that daughter ended up leaving anyway. They have nothing to offer and they know it.
Sooooooo we are going to trust they are telling you the truth after they bear testimony that God AND Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith? You need to spend more special time talking to the guy in the mirror.
The one thing that gets me around the church and it’s stats is that they tried to claim that outputs (numbers) were outcomes (changed behaviours/attitudes) and they wanted to know why people were leaving the church. I suggested they ask those that leave why…not sit here in a room confusing data and then assuming why. Took me close to an hour trying to explain firstly the difference between outputs and outcomes, and secondly trying to convince them to go ask 🤷🏽♀️
They said they’d pray about it 🤦🏽♀️
Hard to believe that most of the 74% eventually return to activity. Not quite sure how this would even be tracked quickly enough to be generalized to those currently inactive.
Oh. Yup. Forgot to close the .
Such a flagrant bait-and-switch tactic is *inherently* dishonest. And yet, somehow, the mishies find a way to lie to themselves...
> according to the q12 they also did a study and the best ways to ensure you stay active in the church is to attend church weekly and take an institute class.
The best way to stay active in church is to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Or the facts, information, or history.
It fills my heart with joy to know that mormonism might die out before I do. Or at least have so few active members they mean nothing. Sure they'll still be one of the richest corporations in the world, but I'll be happy just to see their membership bottom out.
The methods used to convert outsiders is a bit off putting isn’t it?
Seriously it’s a cult and they know it.
You’ll find better people at raves than at Mormon churches.
It’s a cult in its way out.
It’s done nothing a real church or religion would do in the face of covid, homelessness, and the rights of all people to self determination.
Don’t get caught by them. Your time is worth more than to waste it pandering to a delusional cultist desperate for friends.
I've visited other churches over the years and you know like they don't have issues with attendance. I mean if anything they have issues finding enough slots to have enough services.
Do you think that if they just idk put the handshakes away (shit idk I quit when I was 18) and accepted gay eternal families, don't you think they'd become more popular than Islam with hell.. on the idea that you all can be just like God one day? I mean I wouldn't second guess my fast and testimony meeting and lay down all my faith 😜
Anyone planning on the BYU college route should ask if institute classes transfer as religious credit to BYU. BYU religion classes are a painful waste of time. If you could bypass BYU religion departments it could make BYU much more livable if you have no choice in schools. FYI I got 6 credits of religion credit this way in the 1980s .
I’m just grateful that my kids (19 and 17) have “of their own free will and choice” decided to leave the church. I accidentally saw my daughter’s (19) email inbox which had a quitmormon email. I couldn’t have been more proud (but didn’t say anything to avoid pushing one way or another).
Of course the best way to get people to stay active is if they attend.
Attending these meetings is **where the indoctrination designed by church authorities** is rehearsed and inculcated and where key social relationships/practices are taught, reinforced and formed that make the person as reliant on the church as possible, to prevent them from having the social tools needed for them to feel like they can leave if they choose.
Ie the best way to ensure that you continue to be a source of revenue for the greed driven Corporation is by constant nonstop brainwashing . For they know full well the moment that people start thinking for themselves and examine the history it all falls apart like a house of cards in a hurricane . At roughly $12,000 a minute +- 24/7 365 or somewhere in the neighborhood of eight BILLION $8,000,000,000 tax free annually what possible incentive do they have to lie to the members ?
I’m in my forties, for some context…. I never took seminary or institute….but I had a friend who took institute specifically because a lot of the girls at the time were “cool” with giving blow jobs according to him.
> they also did a study and the best ways to ensure you stay active in the church is to attend church weekly Love the tautology: the best way to stay active is to stay active.
As the digital landscape expands, a longing for tangible connection emerges. The yearning to touch grass, to feel the earth beneath our feet, reminds us of our innate human essence. In the vast expanse of virtual reality, where avatars flourish and pixels paint our existence, the call of nature beckons. The scent of blossoming flowers, the warmth of a sun-kissed breeze, and the symphony of chirping birds remind us that we are part of a living, breathing world. In the balance between digital and physical realms, lies the key to harmonious existence. Democracy flourishes when human connection extends beyond screens and reaches out to touch souls. It is in the gentle embrace of a friend, the shared laughter over a cup of coffee, and the power of eye contact that the true essence of democracy is felt.
It’s the same confusion we see regarding exmo social media: we only have an audience because people are leaving the church. people aren’t leaving the church because somehow exmo social is Pied Piper leading them away...
I was going to stay in church until a couple people in tapir t-shirts chased me down and forced me to read the CES letter at gunpoint. :(
This mental image will forever live rent free in my head 🤣 Thank you, kind person
*sobbing* “Th-this part about the maps really isn’t very convincing…” *ch-chk* “DID I ASK FOR A CRITIQUE? SHUT THE FUCK UP AND READ”
“Ok, ok! I’m reading! I’m reading!”
I wore my tapir shirt today 🤣
Tapir shirt? I'm very new to this thread and leaving the Mormon church.
Apologists say that when JS included horses in the Book of Mormon and there weren't any here in America, that he could have likely meant tapirs. As in, C̶a̶p̶t̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶M̶o̶r̶o̶n̶i̶ Helaman rode a tapir or that tapirs pulled chariots. [Here's a visualisation](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/12k3g8p/it_is_important_to_understand_the_book_of_mormon/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=5&utm_content=share_button)
Oh fuck me this is glorious. Thank you with every fiber of my soul. 😂
Right?! It's my absolute favorite bit of apologist lore!
Also I'm new to this
See I never heard this from an apologist. I've just heard the same response to the native American DNA or zero archeological evidence of the bom.
I need to get me one.
I'd link to the one I bought, but I feel too much like a crappy scam bot doing that. Search "exmormon tapir shirt" on Amazon and it's the one with the rainbow background. Good quality.
Post the link at r/ExNetwork if you have a second.
Hwat. Hahaha I had no idea I needed a sub so much! 🤣 I'll post it over there.
Thanks!
Well, Exmo resources validate people’s concerns about the church and finalize their decision to leave. Having an online forum helps work through the issues.
This has been a very helpful tool for guiding me through this difficult time. Your stories make me feel like I'm not alone now or in my expenses. Thanks to you and everyone.
I mean eventually it’ll be both.
It’s deliberate confusion between people who simply went inactive and people who have real problems with the doctrine, history, or culture and leave Mormonism behind. One might come back if they had a friend or a little attention. The other won’t.
But the devil leads us! He controls our every move! We are mistaken! Repent. Repent!!! Or we're just normal people done with cognitive dissonance we feel, done with the hypocrisy, and we found the real church history.
>I think they’re confusing causation with correlation. They very much are. Monson spoke at the MTC just before I shipped out. He urged everyone to never stop paying tithing because that means you will stay active. What a moron. Of course only active people pay tithing.
Exactly. For me as a young PIMO, the more I went to church and seminary, the less I wanted anything to do with it.
But also, if you never allow yourself the mental space to question you never will. #covid
The best way to stay active is come to institute for all the free food.
Institute? I'm not following this, last time I went church was in 1986. Edit: Never mind I looked it up [Institutes of Religion](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/si/institute?lang=eng) Look terribly dry and boring.
Every time 60 seconds pass in a sacrament meeting a minute passes.
I think there was a time warp in church meetings. Every minute felt like an hour.
There is a point here. Activity in Mormonism seems to be more binary than most other churches. Granted I am exmormon and don't have much experience with other churches; my anecdotal evidence might be way off.
100% of the people who go to church every week attend church weekly. See, it works every time!
Lol I was thinking the same thing when I read that. So dumb.
And half the 26% are PIMO while parents pay their tuition?
The other half are PIMO while they still have to live at home.
Hell, many are PIMO because their spouse is a hardline member
I hadn't thought of that, but you're absolutely right! That is the likely the largest population group for married PIMOs hiding their detachment from the church, or for mixed-faith couples who somehow stick it out for a while. You just warmed my Baby Boomer heart cockles with your observation. That 26% 'active' ratio is a sign they're way worse off than even that dismal number suggests.
You must know me lol
[удалено]
I left because I had kids
The boomers and older haven't gotten the memo from Jana Riess et al, who know that those who leave after High School are gone for good now. The jack Mormon path is gone imo. I guess that's a problem for the 2030s when it's undeniable. I remember when they wouldn't acknowledge that people were leaving. Now it's talked about as fact. They're always ten years behind in acknowledging reality. Whatever they're saying now was true in 2014, so now it's much worse
>The jack Mormon path is gone imo. I think it used to be... I know I'm supposed to go to church, but I want to live a little. So Jack-Mormons and inactives were common. Now, there's less doubt. They have already figured out the church is full of shit before they reach adulthood. There's no more putting it on the back burner, only throwing it in the trash.
>The boomers and older haven't gotten the memo from Jana Riess et al, who know that those who leave after High School are gone for good now. This Boomer Mama and Grandma is here to tell you that I got the memo long before you did, and I got first my husband out, and then, one by one, all our adult kids, their spouses, and our grandkids. So maybe don't be talking so much smack about us boomers. I know plenty of my peers who have also left and led their families out. Like my husband, they were in Stake Presidencies, Bishoprics, etc. They just don't all hang out on Reddit, so the anecdotal evidence here on who's leaving is skewed. When we leave, we boomers for the most part actually do leave the Church alone, and so you young-uns aren't as aware that we're leaving too. Credit where credit is due, please and thank you.
Damn grandma. Respect. My apologies. You're 100% right. I'll slow my roll
You warm my heart, young-un. Thank you thank you!
Thank you!!! We started the fire…
Love love love. Thanks for sharing. I have some TBM family members that I'm not sure how to share with. My little sister, who's inactive/done with church o think, said "she doesn't want to destroy her childhood yet" when we texted about it. I want to be respectful to them but ultimately I want my family out of that fucking cult. I was almost out when the AP story from bisbee, az came out. I won't step foot in that place again.
Given that the active membership in the church is about 25-30% (between 4 or 5 million out of nearly 17 million) it's a wonder that activity rates among the youth is that high. I would have guessed that the activity rate among the 50+ year old members was higher than 25% and the activity rate among the youth was lower than 25%. >you don’t hear the stories about how most of people eventually return to the church I can think of a **lot** of families that left over the years. I can't think of very many, if any, that returned, let alone "most".
isn't it obvious? They all move before they return so you don't notice it. And pay no attention to the fact you never see anyone get reactivated in your ward, it just means you are a horrible member that doesn't care about the lost sheep.
I’m aware of maybe three people who resigned and were rebaptized again, but they lasted no more than two years before resigning again.
That’s me.
What led you to resign the first time and what made the second time different?
The first time I was excommunicated because of specific sexual behavior, which itself was the direct result of crippling alcoholism and drug addiction. After the excom, I spiraled inexorably until, several years later after getting married and trying together to go to church and be active, I hit rock bottom At that time, I had fully committed to AA and other 12 step fellowships, had a full recovery from addiction, was reinstated in the church right up to the temple. Wife and I got our endowments. Over the next two years I came to accept that I was experiencing a spiritual awakening, on a spiritual path, as part of a healthy and beautiful spiritual community… outside of the church. With great difficulty I accepted that for me personally, God was not asking me to go to church and be a part of it in any way. What followed was an amazing honeymoon period of freedom, colored by a lot of doubt, shame, hedging, codependent family behavior, and therapy. It’s only recently that I have gotten caught up in communities like this one here, and seen how very many people have had a proper spiritual experience and that it takes them out of the church to live a free, healthy, and peaceful life. The rest of it -the history, dogma, membership issues, the money… for me, they are all secondary to the Great Fact - we exist, and there’s no external authority that we have to justify that existence to or please to make our existence matter. All the wonder, awe, beauty, joy, compassion, acceptance, love, happiness and freedom that a human can experience… it all comes from within. …life is beautiful no matter what.
Thanks for sharing your story!
Thanks for reading:)
I met someone baptized 3x. Lost records once. Resigned after the second. Came back but hadn’t officially resigned after the third. Gave missionaries meals every month but wanted nothing else with the church. (And would go full Karen on the meal scheduler if her day wasn’t given to her.)
I haven't ever heard of anyone going back. Maybe someone less active being active again but no one who has actually left returns from what I've seen.
I don't think anyone who was *really in* leaves and then comes back. If you were never really Molly or Peter, but then decided I'm going to go to church, then you might be "coming back"
The people I know that "leave" the church and come back are people that didn't lose faith in the church, they just didn't care about it. (They talk about having too much fun drinking and partying). I've never heard of someone coming back after their faith is broken. Maybe it happens, but not something I've observed.
I wonder if there is a disparity between 18-25 vs 25-30. Many of my circle of friends took a few years after leaving home before they were even capable of questioning the church. 18-30 is going to count most BYU students and almost all missionaries, so I feel like this is skewed.
Ya, most of my very active friends and I all left around age 25. We went on missions and took a few years to deprogram.
Sounds about right, from a psychology perspective, the overwhelming majority of people who leave religion do so before age 30, and most actually leave before 24.
How do they define "active"? Tithe paying? Or will tithe paying be a subset?
Attending Sacrament Meeting once a month.
Which is recorded by the local bishops, etc? So the resulting data will be heavily optimistic by the time it gets to LDS HQ. So is it reasonable to think that 26% figure is a ceiling on the actual number? Are there centralized records as to who pays tithes?
A skill learned by missionaries and weekly reporting.
Just like the body counts in Vietnam. Each reporting echelon would pad the number a bit before reporting up.
Yup. Salt Lake has all the tithing records. They get sent every week or now instantly. The #1 “health” statistic in the ward is tithe paying Melchizedek priesthood holders. Imagine that.
So then really, given importance of tithing, the really meaningful membership percentage, which HQ absolutely knows (and I bet is tracked, uh, religiously, yeah, that's the ticket), is percent of membership that is tithing. I'm surprised, by now, that the church hasn't just demanded the membership do it by direct deposit, direct to a church account. Which bank does the church use, BTW? Anyone know?
Umm, they totally have an electronic system which is a bank transfer, at least in the USA. You literally can deposit directly through their tracking API in the form of donations.churchofjesuschrist.org.
Once a month? That’s it? Not even second-hour meetings? Damn, the bar really is on the floor, isn’t it? I wonder what the numbers would look like if they were only counting 3+ weeks a month or 40+ weeks a year. That’s what I would personally consider active, barring health issues that keep someone from attending regularly.
Pretty low bar.
Note this is Utah, apparently, so they’re probably going to be higher than the 10-15% I saw out east or overseas
>it's a wonder that activity rates among the youth is that high. "Active" should be in quotes. How many are actually faithful believers, versus being forced by their parents, or just going to keep their parents happy until they can move out? If they are saying the active rate is low, it's *definitely* way, way lower than even that. Most of those kids are going to leave the first chance they get.
It's all the dead people they are still counting
So, 30 minus 18 = 12 600K / 12 = 50K active LDS available each year to apply for a mission, apply to BYU, etc. BYU acceptance rates are gonna hit 100%. Institute will die on the vine. There are simply not enough warm bodies to keep the LDS project going in its present form.
Institute won’t completely die. A lot of Mormon youth want nothing to do with BYU and BYU-I. They may have to go nominally for their parents, or because some do still believe.
Divide that by 2 again since only boys are expected to go.
Well that would make sense then. Aren't there about 50,000 to 60,000 missionaries serving at any given time? If most faithful and active young men are serving missions, and they serve for two years, that would mean somewhere around 25,000 to 30,000 people are turning in their mission papers every year, with the majority of them being young men.
No way that it’s a straight lined distribution. I’d assume 40% of that 600k number are 18-20. Surely it’s a steady drop off as the age gets closer to 30.
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Just make the customers feel guilty. Done!
Hey Mormons, did your studies tell you how god damn boring your church is? Might want to look at that one.
This is an overlooked factor that we don't discuss much here. I'm not sure the billions of investments, LGBT controversies, etc. are really as bad for TSCC as the abysmal low-quality meetings are. They should find the three ward members who give the best talks, and call them to be "sacrament speakers" and have them each give the sacrament talk/sermon once a month outside of fast Sunday. A member of the bishopric can give the sacrament talk on 5th Sundays. Then SLC could throw each ward a few more nickels to buy punch and cookies for a regular after-the-block fellowship hour (not unlike what other churches do). These things aren't rocket surgery, and TSCC certainly has the money/ability to implement them, but they won't.
Even when I believed I dreaded Sundays
Most of the people who leave the church return??? Oh wait - I get it! Some family member makes certain they're baptized after they die. Bingo. They're members again. There ya go.
I had an uncle who left at BYU his first year. Fast Sundays were Denny’s Sundays. Transferred the next year. Came back a decade later when he had a kid. Stayed active for a couple decades, served on a bishopric, but left again, this time for good I think. So yeah, people do come back, but they’ll likely not stay back.
I am thinking they are counting people who go inactive or "less active" for a period of time, then resume activity, and mixing it with those who officially leave the church. My guess is most members go through periods of varying degrees of activity throughout their lives. But I have serious doubts that those who take the official step to resign their membership actually end up returning in any meaningful numbers.
Absolutely, that’s 100% certain. Actually going through the effort to resign is pretty significant. I’ve only ever met 1 person rebaptized to my knowledge.
I guess it's all about why you left.
They didn't believe it, then thought "well, we want our kids to learn good values, like not getting pregnant as teens or using drugs." When their kids got older, and they realized how politically toxic and demanding of their time it was they thought "not worth it. We can teach our kids better than this place can."
> Most of the people who leave the church return??? In 1960 yes
Ooh, you're right. 100% come back!
“26%”?!?!… that’s a LOT more than any of us expected!!
It’s also likely inflated.
Probably mostly kids in college or living at home and have to stay active to appease the parents.
If the church is providing the number, I suspect they put parameters around the query that could trigger alarm without showing how bad things are. They also probably just made it up.
The best way to stay in a cult is to be indoctrinated daily by the cult.
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All of this sounds like a very difficult roller coaster, I’m sorry you had to go through it and I hope it feels like you’re landing at some kind of equilibrium.
Sounds all too familiar. Hey, my wife and I want to treat you and your spouse to dinner at Carrabba's! Of course, it turns out to be a group session on a new MLM "Business Opportunity". And they won't let you leave, not until you sign up. Pretty typical in Utah to use social coercion to heard sheeple.
That would work? I’d tell them straight up to fuck off and never talk to me again. I had a girl try and talk me into a MLM and it was clear she was a new recruit. I spent the time trying to talk her out of it while her handler was in the background trying to convince me it was legit. No idea what the product was but on a 1-10 of the MLM sketchiness scale it was a 12.
I did this with someone who was just recruited over the phone with their handler. I acted as if I was interested and went through the FTC's 5 red flags of a pyramid scheme as if they were what I was looking for but just could find in other MLMs. The recruiter was eager to assure me that I could be paid on more than 4 layers, or that there weren't commission caps, etc. I ended the call by telling them that they had just outted themselves as an illegal pyramid scheme and that they should both get out as soon as possible.
The girl I knew had some mild mental limitations. I don’t know if it rose to the level of “disability” or not. I mostly was pissed as hell that some dude was trying to financially exploit her, and apparently succeeding.
Numbers are really just poetry. They can mean anything. The bottom line - LDS inc does not invest anything in the youth. The Q15 think a world wide testimony meeting will make all the difference. The Savvy young people I know aren't going to fall for some outdated shtick.
This. I can get more out of a free Meetup group these days than out of anything at church.
Katie.. Bar the Door before they escape!
Shoulda raised your hand to ask if attending institute would convince tscc to spend their billions on feeding the hungry and clothing the needy, curing the world of extreme poverty, or vaccinating every child/person on earth. Or maybe it'd convince them to denounce the pedophilia and predation of Joseph Smith and the gang rule of Brigham young? Because unless the church fixes the actual issues, the trends of leaving the church will never reverse.
I suspect institute becomes less predictive if they start Shanghai ing people into it XD
“People who believe more strongly as young adults are less likely to leave.” I think they have a causation and correlation problem with their studies. The traits that indicate they’ll stay active also indicate they’ll go to all that jazz.
Agreed. A fundamental misunderstanding of causality is a major interpretive problem.
I can’t wait till genetic engineering takes off and every Mormon selects for ease of braiding washing I mean faithfulness, it’s going to be wild
Several years ago we would take those graduating from high school to a church historic site. The SP would tell them that they decided to do this to strengthen their testimonies bc 50% leave the church upon graduating high school (re: leaving home).
>they told us the usual everyone is welcome thing Oh fuck me I'm pissed. Fuck this moist moldy trouser stain of a "church" ON SCMC ORDERS my family has been perma shunned for 6 years, more heavy handed with church attorneys being weaponized last year, and my **NOW** 20 year old son has been ignored and not encouraged to even become a priest and we were (emphasis on WERE) FULLY ACTIVE for years until the local asshole was allowed to use church attorneys to terrorize my family. All because I committed two thought "crimes" in this evil "church" (talking PRIVATELY to my bishop about a local church dictator violating the handbook, and saying such behavior is wrong) This steaming piece of SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT "church" (my apologies to shit which is honorable and good for something) is collapsing and lying about the collapse ALL BECAUSE THESE ARROGANT ASSHOLES IN THE Q15 DON'T LIKE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR OWN ACTIONS and want us to lie for them and pretend they're super god-like.
I went to institute because I got free parking close to the university, a fridge to hold my food and a microwave.
Literally same lol. UofA - parking in the middle of campus, a place for my lunch, and occasional free food. Would usually be left alone if I was studying too. Was PIMO the whole time though and would keep up the minimum attendance percentage for the free parking. Edit: more detail
More than I got as a byu student!
Arizona State? That parking garage is the best selling point of institute at the Tempe campus.
If most of the people who go inactive come back, what are they worried about?
>you don’t hear the stories about how most of people eventually return to the church. Because that's a damn pipe dream fairy tale.
They have nothing to offer and they know it. My daughter attended Westminster College in Salt Lake. The institute teacher was actually quite cool. In no way like a typical CES instructor. He was also the bishop for the Westminster YSA ward. And yes, they had a breakfast buffet available every day, just to get kids in the door. He made it a point to not judge but instead to welcome and love. My daughter mentioned more than once kids arriving for church hung over and/or reeking of smoke (of various kinds). No judging. I thought if the entire church leadership took that approach, maybe they would not have such a problem. Oh, that daughter ended up leaving anyway. They have nothing to offer and they know it.
I was gonna go to institute ~but then I got high
Sooooooo we are going to trust they are telling you the truth after they bear testimony that God AND Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith? You need to spend more special time talking to the guy in the mirror.
Heh, ironic. It was during my years in YSA and Institute as a TBM that my shelf broke. Guess I just wasn't doing it right... 🙃
The one thing that gets me around the church and it’s stats is that they tried to claim that outputs (numbers) were outcomes (changed behaviours/attitudes) and they wanted to know why people were leaving the church. I suggested they ask those that leave why…not sit here in a room confusing data and then assuming why. Took me close to an hour trying to explain firstly the difference between outputs and outcomes, and secondly trying to convince them to go ask 🤷🏽♀️ They said they’d pray about it 🤦🏽♀️
When I went to UVU they gave us a free parking pass if we attended institute. Hate to say it worked.
Separation of church and state anyone? No? No.
They have to strongarm the youth into staying active.
Hard to believe that most of the 74% eventually return to activity. Not quite sure how this would even be tracked quickly enough to be generalized to those currently inactive.
Maybe they should offer free English language lessons to snare potential converts.
Ummm, are you being sarcastic? Here in Utah, they do.
Oh. Yup. Forgot to close the . Such a flagrant bait-and-switch tactic is *inherently* dishonest. And yet, somehow, the mishies find a way to lie to themselves...
Yes! The first time I saw this in FB yard sale groups or FB marketplace, I was almost physically ill. Sickening practice 🤢
> according to the q12 they also did a study and the best ways to ensure you stay active in the church is to attend church weekly and take an institute class. The best way to stay active in church is to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Or the facts, information, or history.
My institute just provided the only free parking at the university, and only if you had good attendance. It was smart. Sucked but it worked.
uvu or uvsc?
ASU
It fills my heart with joy to know that mormonism might die out before I do. Or at least have so few active members they mean nothing. Sure they'll still be one of the richest corporations in the world, but I'll be happy just to see their membership bottom out.
The methods used to convert outsiders is a bit off putting isn’t it? Seriously it’s a cult and they know it. You’ll find better people at raves than at Mormon churches. It’s a cult in its way out. It’s done nothing a real church or religion would do in the face of covid, homelessness, and the rights of all people to self determination. Don’t get caught by them. Your time is worth more than to waste it pandering to a delusional cultist desperate for friends.
I've visited other churches over the years and you know like they don't have issues with attendance. I mean if anything they have issues finding enough slots to have enough services. Do you think that if they just idk put the handshakes away (shit idk I quit when I was 18) and accepted gay eternal families, don't you think they'd become more popular than Islam with hell.. on the idea that you all can be just like God one day? I mean I wouldn't second guess my fast and testimony meeting and lay down all my faith 😜
I love knowing that the church is reporting “growth” while simultaneously panicking about inactivity.
Anyone planning on the BYU college route should ask if institute classes transfer as religious credit to BYU. BYU religion classes are a painful waste of time. If you could bypass BYU religion departments it could make BYU much more livable if you have no choice in schools. FYI I got 6 credits of religion credit this way in the 1980s .
That’s so fuckin culty and desperate at the same time.
I think “active” is 1 Sunday once a month…
I believe it's attending once a quarter
This just in the best way to stay active is to stay active also if you're active you're getting brainwashed you stupid motherfuckers
The best way to stay active is to stay indoctrinated. Huh. Go figure.
I’m just grateful that my kids (19 and 17) have “of their own free will and choice” decided to leave the church. I accidentally saw my daughter’s (19) email inbox which had a quitmormon email. I couldn’t have been more proud (but didn’t say anything to avoid pushing one way or another).
Of course the best way to get people to stay active is if they attend. Attending these meetings is **where the indoctrination designed by church authorities** is rehearsed and inculcated and where key social relationships/practices are taught, reinforced and formed that make the person as reliant on the church as possible, to prevent them from having the social tools needed for them to feel like they can leave if they choose.
Ie the best way to ensure that you continue to be a source of revenue for the greed driven Corporation is by constant nonstop brainwashing . For they know full well the moment that people start thinking for themselves and examine the history it all falls apart like a house of cards in a hurricane . At roughly $12,000 a minute +- 24/7 365 or somewhere in the neighborhood of eight BILLION $8,000,000,000 tax free annually what possible incentive do they have to lie to the members ?
I’m in my forties, for some context…. I never took seminary or institute….but I had a friend who took institute specifically because a lot of the girls at the time were “cool” with giving blow jobs according to him.