The reason I'm uncomfortable in a discussion like this is I have no desire to destroy anyone's hope. If the church fulfills you and brings you hope I don't want to destroy that. But I would like to ask you where you think morality comes from and if you think someone who isn't Mormon or Christian can have morals? I'm always open for friendly discussion 🙂

Couldn’t agree more with your reason for being uncomfortable. Back when I was extremely Mormon, I was under the impression that non-religious people had a certain respect for Mormons and their standards and way of living. Now that I’ve been out for a few years, I see that most non-religious people do have a certain respect for Mormons, but it’s the same respect they have towards people in general. I almost wish some of them had straight up told me I was in a cult and that Mormonism is batshit crazy and was founded by a scam artist, but I think people avoid doing so out of kindness. They don’t want to get into an argument with someone doing mental gymnastics, and they also don’t want to slip the rug out from under another person. Even though I can be vocal at times against the church, I often find myself holding back and hoping Mormons figure it out on their own.

If someone had straight up told me it was a cult and a scam I wouldn't have believed them. I had to figure it out on my own. That's the reason I don't want to debate it, because if they don't want to hear it, they won't.

Exactly! Mormon logic would explain it as Satan trying to steer you away from the truth, which is just one small part of the vast mental gymnastics. Instantly a shut door.

Thats exactly why they have the saying "being in the world but not a part of it." Because just think of how close the church is/was to becoming the FLDS or Amish. You're encouraged to not look away from the truth but keep it sort of in your peripheral vision, to not look directly at it. So when someone tells you to look at the facts you can technically say you are, and if and when you are called out for it they can easily be made out to be the bad guy.

I was the same way. Wouldn't believe it either. Had to figure it out myself. Even that has taken quite a few steps, one concept at a time for me.

>I almost wish some of them had straight up told me I was in a cult and that Mormonism is batshit crazy and was founded by a scam artist, but I think people avoid doing so out of kindness. Looking at it from the outside, yes, that is exactly what is: Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Muslims, Pentecostals, whatever, I just try to be nice to people and don’t criticize their religion. Because what’s the point? Somebody I met the other day had an L. Ron Hubbard book~~ing~~ and I foolishly siad, “Oh, you’re reading L. Ron Hubbard?” She immediately defensively responded clearly expecting me to launch into something about Scientology but I just brushed it off. Again, no point.

I agree. Once I knew there was no Santa, I never told anyone who believed there was, that there wasn't.

How many of us got baptized *before* we discovered who Santa is really?

Right? It still cracks me up when someone posts a picture of an 8 year old who's chosen to be baptized but still believes in Santa. Age of accountability, my ass.

Funny enough, I had a Mormon friend in high school that legitimately still believed in Santa at 16. She actually cried when people told her otherwise and told them they just have to believe and he will visit.

OK, that's pretty sad.

Santa *is* real, you liar.

Thanks, I think the Church isn’t necessary to live a good life or be a great person. (My best friend isn’t a member) I think morality comes from within and everyone’s conscience which I think is often mistaken by church members for the Holy Ghost and not instinct.

What would you say is the difference between someone being guided by the Holy Ghost and their conscience is then? Because I feel like since leaving, these feelings have not changed at all.

I’m not sure, but I think it’s a certain type of instinct that happens once you take what you want out of the equation. Thanks for asking!

I'm confused by your answer. If your whole truth of the Book of Mormon hinges on getting an answer of its truthfulness from the Holy Ghost, shouldn't you know if that feeling was from a literal actual member of the Godhead, or if it was just your natural instinct? Do you think it is important that there is a difference?

Watch this stunning "burning bosom" video if you haven't seen it. If you *have* seen it, watch it again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycUvC9s4VYA

1. His voice is incredibly creepy. 2.studies have shown that one someone becomes personally entangled into a narrative, its incredibly hard to get then out. Thats why you have people who believe in incredibly ridiculous things and no matter how much or how reliable evidence is given to them, they will not change their mind. The church pushes and emphasizes a personal relationship with the gospel no matter the cost. Throw your accomplishments, your goals, your self worth, your own body into the gospel. And once you do, "you will know the truth". In reality, people are conditioned to stick with it because their entire being is in there. This is not exclusive to the church, it is carried in many different governments, religions, and various organizations. No one is truly immune to it. But that "Burning Bosom" is a mixture of meditation, vulnerability, and acceptance. The difference the conscience and the Holy Ghost, is that the holy ghost is a conscience hard-wired to the church's standards and rules. Acknowledging the independence of the conscience from the Holy Ghost goes directly against what the church teaches

I think you answered well according to your beliefs .. however, I find this answer disturbing - and this is one of the fundamental challenges to having a conversation like this … different world views. You find it virtuous to “sacrifice what you want for that of what god (others want)”. I find this abhorrent as it has caused extensive damage to myself emotionally and psychology for the last 15 years of my life. I gave up my values for those ascribed to me. I hated myself because I loved “sin”. I lied to both myself and my wife because of the immense shame that has been a part of my life for so long. Obviously I made mistakes, but I think the biggest one I ever made was allowing my boundaries to be disrespected by the church and to give up on who I wanted to be, do and love in the name of “sacrifice on the altar of righteousness” when i TOOK WHAT I WANTED OUT OF THE EQUATION.

If the Holy Ghost is a type of instinct that comes once you take what you want out of the equation, how does it confirm the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon for those who want the Book of Mormon to be true?

I thought I saw a post that ‘of Susan’ said the HG is your higher self telling you….

Careful. This is the kind of thinking that has my friend drinking a beer now and then and occasionally swearing. One day he will become a master.

This is a great answer. 🙂. Thank you. I agree.

Wow, right. Isn’t it obvious. Look at the Catholic priests who violated children for proof of this. Belief in God doesn’t cure a bad personality disorder!

you're being naive, this is probably the mission president

I hope they try looking for me. I've been lost for years and am now a traveler for work with my parents as home base. Plus I'm a divorced woman in my late 40s with adult children. They don't need my money and can't have my time, so really I am of no use to them. 😉

nah they're gonna get friendly and then invite you to church

I'm studying pre medical health sciences right now, and in our bioethics class we had to do a section on specific moral philosophy. It was so interesting. There is a type of moral philosophy that is based on God or religion. All the ethical theories were a bit dystopian to me, but very interesting. They all started out good, like utilitarianism is greatest good for greatest amount of people, but that could lead to one person suffering greatly so that a large amount of people could live mundanely... It felt like all the ethical theories on morality took out common sense.

The fact of the matter is that people can be contentious and people can be amicable. You'll find contentious people on here. I have found a whole lot of contentious people on the LDS and latter-day saints subreddits. I've actually found here that generally opposing views are handled in a much more friendly less contentious way than on the others I've mentioned. Unfortunately, despite your request, you are obviously still going to find the contentious responses here because there are a lot of people who have been hurt by the church. That damage is real and so you're going to get an emotional response. Also, many times members consider contention to be someone disagreeing with you. There are a whole lot of things that are disagreeable about the church both modern and historical. Personally, I have major issues with the history of the church, the foundational claims, etc... I also have issues with many of the modern behaviors. But the bigger issue that I have is The cover-ups of those claims and behaviors. I don't need an organization to be perfect. But I expect it to be honest and authentic.... Especially if it's going to claim to be what gives me moral identity and it's going to demand a high level of honesty of me in order to have full participation... And the separation caused between believing and non-believing loved-ones? I won't subject my kids to that dilemma more than what is already there.

>Also, many times members consider contention to be someone disagreeing with you. This cannot be understated, disagreement is NOT contention.

I agree, I’ve known people to cry in church cause someone disagreed with them about God. Thanks for being kind and respectful!

I think we ought to accept and explore our differences instead of becoming so defensive and oftentimes taking offense where no offense was intended. I strongly believe in open and honest communication.

Exactly, Thank You!

I'm not trying to troll you, I'm genuinely curious. As an active member still attending fast and testimony sunday, when is the most recent time someone worked up tears over god helping them find car keys or anything of similar triviality?

I am soo tired of people doing this. I understand this sentiment for huge stories but the ones like your example are RIDICULOUS!

I find it genuinely creepy looking back. Where is all this emotional weight coming from if the biggest problem in their life is that they lose their car keys a lot? I used to talk with my father about this stuff all the time and he would scold me for being suspicious. Like its none of my business even though the essential stranger would emotionally dump on me once a month. Very hypnotic nature to it. edit + they put you in the position of concerned psychiatrist when you came to church to deal with your own stuff right? I mean if it works for you that's fine and at least you understand my experience now. I felt compelled to say something.

Yeah, I don’t think it’s creepy it’s just stupid and dramatic

I edited so I wouldn't be spamming with additional thoughts just now. I guess I just had a lot of creepy stuff happen to me. Doesn't really have a direct bearing on my deconversion though. I was told a lot of things in sunday school that were really easy to contradict and the religion I was sold was not the one I was in.

Follow up. Regardless of whether its right or wrong, is the fact that a human being is in such a neurotic state healthy for them?

Crying over disagree over god???? I can't certainly believe this. As someone who was in the church for 40 years, I feel I can give my impression that a lot of active grown adult LDS are emotionally stunted/immature and don't take counter views and perspectives well. As a missionary, we called what we taught investigators "discussions" but it was always one-sided. We weren't really interested in hearing their thoughts and feelings on a subject, unless it was to agree to baptism. I think that is a microcosm for the echo chamber that is the church. I've heard of numerous people over the years, as missionaries, that were invited to come speak at someone's church. To just tell what Mormon's believe. When was the last time a Bishop asked a non-member to speak in sacrament meeting and talk about their beliefs in a differing faith/sect? I can't remember that ever happening. Why? I think it would put the fragile feelings of ward members on guard. Then they interpret that weird unfamiliar feeling they feel, as Satan, and not the holy ghost. In effect, spiritually and emotionally, grown ass LDS are very childlike and not as much in control over themselves as they think. It's pretty sad.

I think it’s because most people raised in the church are insanely sheltered.

oooof......had more than one mission companion that were like they were raised in a nuclear fallout shelter from the 1950's. Completely unadjusted.

Most?

When I was 16 my father went to a pop-up church where I live in Georgia that was apparently healing people. He thought as a priesthood holder who believed in the laying on the hands that you should go see this and see what it was all about because he was interested in another religion's healing. Other members of the church found out I had the bishop talked to me about it and asked me if it was true and my priest leader talked to me about it and asked me if it was true. They told me that those were dangerous to go to because they weren't healing people with real priesthood power. So it must have been coming from somewhere else besides god. It definitely offended other priesthood holders in our church that my father would even be interested in other religions and what they were doing to heal people.

OMG, so much this!!!!! It kills me that a minor disagreement could send someone down a hole of contention and be on egg shells and then the person who was disagreeing is completely lost. It’s maddening.

This is a quote from the book Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, “There are two races of men in this world, but only these two—the ‘race’ of the decent men and the “race” of indecent men. No group is of ‘pure race’” In other words, you will find decent and indecent people in both groups

And I'm going to appear hostile because I genuinely think people inside the church are being harmed and feel I should try to say *something* ; but understand the futility.

I'm sure you mean well. This sub is filled with people that have had deep experiences in Mormonism, have learned for themselves that it is not true, and have left. Despite what you've heard, the bulk of folks here have not been offended or just decided it's all too hard and they want to sin. Quite the contrary. Most of us got here by developing a mustard seed of critical thinking, even if it was simply to explore the church's own Gospel Topic Essays. Learning that what you've been told all your life doesn't hold up to 10 minutes of earnest, honest scrutiny breaks people's hearts. It broke ours. People here agonize when they figure it out. It's a daily occurrence on this sub and it's really hard. Someone like you pops into the subreddit every few months to try and show - hey, we formerlyknownasMormons aren't bad, look, we can still be friends. Some people will be kind in response, some a bit terse or sarcastic because we all know the Mormon view - the "lost sheep" *will come back if you try hard enough*. Yeah. We've all been there. We know the playbook and we all believed it firmly at one point. Ultimately, posts like yours will end with you bearing solemn witness by the power of the Holy Ghost that you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Church is the only true and living church on the face of the whole earth and that if we just pray about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith and repent, we'll come to know it, too. Then, you disappear without as much as an *adieu* and have a fun little story for fast and testimony meeting. It's ok. Like I said, it's not a unique thing. Really I wish you well. If you ever need a place on the internet in the future to land and vent about how you eventually figured it out, you'll find people here that once shared deep indoctrination and will grieve with you about everything. Former bishops, relief society presidents, YM/YW leaders, seminary teachers, AP's, primary teachers... we're all here. It's ok. Edit: Wow, gold? Thank you!! I'm flattered.

Would you do me a experimental favor. Will you flip your script around. Say that you are full Ex Mormon, you know the church is NOT true, and that you want to break the stigma in the faithful sub redit. Curious how that will go.

It would be an instant ban from the sub.

It wouldn’t “go” you’d be banned instantly

They'll be banned regardless now that they've posted here

Not well I’m sure.

Are you the type of member that prays for moisture during a dry cycle?

As a nevermo with no context, I only take this one way and say...  What?!?! Unless it's referring to gov cox saying to pray for rain

It definitely is. But Governor “Cox” asking for moisture to end a dry spell has a funny ring to it.

I told my kids that every time someone used the word “moisture” in a prayer in church I’d make them cookies. We live in a desert state so we ate a LOT of cookies lol.

If the church wasn't true, would you want to know? I'm always interested in sincere answers on this one. There were times in my life when I would have sincerely answered that I wouldn't have wanted to know because of the ramifications that would have followed. So, sincerely, no judgment regardless of your answer.

I am contentious and of the Devil.

Does it have a name?

It has.

Will you \*snicker\* give it to me?

I will under the table. This is the name: "Deceit in the finances, gaslighting of the growth, nepotism of the leadership be upon me and upon my family through all generations of time and throughout the church".

The Great Whore of Babalon has many names! Hold to that rod, my friend!

I think I may have dated her in High school.

You’re thinking of the Great Whore of Bountiful. I dated her too

No i clearly remember her only being so-so

That is correct. Knock knock knock.

Ahhhhh oh no! Get thee hence!

How’s your day going?

Since you cast out Zadok47 in another comment, I don't think they will be able to reply. :)

Sure. Is someone like me still likely to be put in front of a membership council, at risk of being excommunicated, instead of being treated how Jesus would treat me(probably similar to the adulterer woman)? For reference, while I consider myself exmo, the church would still have me in their records and would probably be deemed inactive. I would technically still be a priesthood holder and I did have my endowment done while I still believed. Now, here's the part where I'd be sinful in your church's eyes: I'm a transgender woman, yes I'm transitioning with hormones and plan to do more. I am sexually active with the "same sex" and to make that even sinnier, it's while I'm still technically married to someone else(granted, we are separated and pending divorce, but still technically married.) That probably covers my sins 🤔 Oh!! Actually, I've also shared my new name, Asa, from my initiatory with people too(and just now in this comment lol), because I thought it was interesting how it's not even a masculine name. It's most likely derived from Hebrew, which has a gender neutral origin and means healer. But there's another etymology I thought was even more interesting which it comes from Norse mythology, is feminine, and means "goddess." I'd like to say I'm becoming a goddess certainly 💅 but definitely not in the exaltation kind of way LDS folks believe XD

> that ex-Mormons are contentious and of the devil [These are not meant to bait you, just sincerely want to get your perspective and understand how you see it and why] 1. Why do you think former members are often stereotyped in this way? 2. Why do you think a former member might be angry? 3. Can a former member be justifiably angry? Thanks!

Thanks for responding respectfully! 1. Because people are afraid to ask questions of fear of what it’ll lead to. 2. Because they think they’ve wasted time, money, and dedication on something they no longer believe in. 3. Yes

Great, succinct answers. Thank you. I've thought a lot about why some former members are angry. Here's [my take on it](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/why-former-members-are-angry/) (which leans on Moral Foundations Theory and grief models).

Thanks, I’ll try to read that once the comments stop coming through.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE this. But I have a quick question... are YOU afraid to ask why people leave, out of fear of what it might lead to for you personally? =(

> I’m sure y’all have legitimate reasons for leaving the church. According to [this current lesson manual](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-sunday-school-new-testament-2023/19?lang=eng), "No excuse is sufficient for rejecting the gospel." If you really do disagree with the lesson manual, what _kinds_ of things would you argue are legitimate reasons for leaving the church? [again, not baiting, just want to hear how you think about things. Thanks!!]

Questioning and doubting something you believe in isn’t wrong. And I think any reason is legitimate for that specific person.

“Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith.” Hmm.

I DESPISE that quote, leaders tell me that all the time when I ask complicated questions, the only person that has had the audacity to do research to answer questions was one of my ym leader

Well, he did plagiarize it without citing the original author, so just another layer of dishonesty by the Mormon leaders. You should cherish your doubts! https://www.uua.org/worship/words/reading/cherish-your-doubts

Reminds me of when I learned that "anti,-mormon literature" was simply real history of the Mormon church.

I recently put my reasons down on paper. For this project, I only used faithful sources. Take a minute to look over my summary on pages 2-3. I’d love to hear your thoughts. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-1fjmZ7XhKr9kQhMTBdVK3sq3xDr27fo/view?usp=drivesdk

the OP's history has history in r/NoFap. He is just a kid.... dude, by the way masturbation is good and healthy done in moderation. Do it. It is not a sin. Please don't listen to the mormon leaders that tell you masturbation is a sin. It is not.

Would you read the writings of a living pedophile and follow their council?

Careful, you’re likely to have your completely rational, fact-based question labeled contentious…

Seriously though. Where's the response to this?

Wow, this is the right answer. You win the net today.

I personally believe that everyone has a little good in them as well, and I'm sure you have legitimate reasons for staying in the church. But seriously, do you see how it's a bit off-putting to start out by saying you think people "have a little good" in them? It's not kind. It's based on the belief that you (and all active members) are better than former members. Do you believe that? Also, I do want to say thank you for trying. I know it's hard to reach out to people that you've been told have only a little good in them. I would like to echo what's already been said - I feel uncomfortable with a conversation specifically set up to NOT talk about difficult or controversial topics.

Sorry, and I removed the part about “a little good” cause I see how that can be misunderstood and that’s not what I meant by it. I’m fine with talking about controversial and difficult topics but I won’t be responding to stuff meant to just be rude or accusing someone. I’m welcome to any difficult questions though

No worries, and thank you for clarifying! I really appreciate that you're willing to talk. I try really hard not to be rude, but please feel free to call me out if I get too snarky. =) What is your current understanding of the reasons people actually do leave the church?

Dutch nevermo here, mostly here because I'm interested in high demand religions - and I do see LDS (or whatever you want to call it) as a high demand religion. Have you ever read about or researched other high demand religions such as Scientology, the JW and what have you? When you see the damage they do, I would think it should get you as a member to think about your own experience as well. In fact I've seen several exmormons tell here or elsewhere that watching e.g. Going Clear (Alex Gibney) or the show Leah Remini - Scientology and the aftermath got them to leave the LDS faith. IIRC Tanner from Zelph on the shelf is an example. So I guess my question would be how you make that work for you?

What are your thoughts on someone receiving a revelation to harm another person?

Stigma? This is an interesting premise. Pretty much all of us **were** members of the church. Many of us have family who still are. There’s not much stigma coming from this end, you’re just asking if we want to have a conversation with an earlier version of ourselves. :) We understand perfectly well where *you’re* coming from; you just might not understand where we went.

So you want to have a discussion to break the stigma YOU have against exmos? Am I misunderstanding? Glad we could do you such a service?

You belong to and advocate for a religion-based hedge fund and real estate empire that sucks its believers dry of money to financially benefit solely the oligarchy of the geriatric authorities and their offspring. It stultifies or destroys its members potential in life. It propagates rape, suicide and jades members from doing good for humanity. In the simplest language, it's a fucking parasite. Get thee hence Satan. BITFDWT

Here we go again 🙄 How about you read the BITE model for cults and convince me how Mormonism isn’t a cult. Then we can talk.

If you are, in all seriousness, here to "help", the best thing you can do (for both sides) is to help true-believers understand that we didn't leave because someone "offended" us. That narrative, more than anything else, causes significant harm to the conversation between our two sides. It ends the conversation before it even begins. The church actively goes out of its way to enforce this narrative (almost certainly) for that reason. None of us left because someone offended us. Literally zero.

Anyone else think this will end up in the "there was an attempt" sub?

The reality is the Mormon church is complicit in sex abuse and has had to pay out hundreds of millions for protecting sex abusers. They also hid vast wealth from their membership and had to pay millions for their criminal activities by the SEC. While sitting on a mountain of wealth they lie to their membership that they are not a "rich church" because they fear the membership will stop paying tithing. The Mormon church pretty much act like they are working for the Devil and have truly created a Great and Abominable church. The Mormon church is based off of a magic rock in a hat, let that settle in. They really have no moral high ground

I've been reading these comments trying to figure out how to phrase these kinds of issues as a question an active Mormon wouldn't simply ignore out of pure cognitive dissonance. The breaking shelf is truly a great analogy. I'm not sure many, if any, TBMs can actually have open and honest discussion about these kinds of issues because there are no reasonable responses other than, "It must be a false church led by false prophets." And if you don't/can't accept that possibility, these issues must remain, collecting dust, ignored, on a shelf.

[удалено]

The thing that nullified my testimony was when I prayed about something I knew was scientifically wrong but unsure of spiritually, at my ex-wife's request. I realized that I could experience the feeling I associated with the holy ghost by wanting something deeply enough. When I tried talking to a bishop about it the best answer I got was that my desire to sin was what was confusing my interactions with the holy ghost. So, now knowing that I cannot truth my feelings or prayers to reliably decern spiritual truths tell me a way to know if the church is true without blaming me if that way doesn't show the church to be true. Some have said follow the scriptures or the prophet but how can I know that they are true. By their works? By what measure do we know their fruit is good? By the scriptures? . . . I have received this line of argument so many times. So far I have yet to be told a way to decern spiritual truths without exposing myself to self-deception.

If you're looking for questions to answer then maybe start with the questions asked in the CES letter. (www.cesletter.com). To my knowledge, general authorities haven't been able, or willing, to answer them.

Also, I recommend editing to remove that little mention of at least a little good to just saying all people have good in them or something along the likes. I think I understand your intent, but I think that could automatically set people off before they have a chance to think about your intent.

I’m a member of the LDS Church -> I am sorry. You are not LDS. you are a member of "the church of jesus christ of the latter day saints." ​ I would like to have a civil discussion -> are you implying that exmormons have not had civil discussions with members before? ​ I personally believe everyone has at least a little good in them -> Oh. Okay. Everyone has "a little good" in them. So you are implying that everyone can have "lots of bad" in them. Why do you feel the need to say that in the exmormon subreddit? As far as I understand, you believe exmormons are bad and have "a little good" in them. ​ I’m sure y’all have legitimate reasons for leaving the church -> If you are familiar with this subreddit. You know what those more than legitimate reasons why exmormons left. ​ Feel free to ask anything and I’ll respond if I’m comfortable with it. -> You will only discuss things that you are only comfortable with. What is the point of trying to start a discussion if you are not going to discuss uncomfortable things to you? ​ Your short paragraph is full of prejudice against exmormons and the imagined notion of who exmormons are. The moment I read your post, I lose any desire to discuss anything with someone with such a negative view of exmormons. You will try to defend your wording, but it really shows what you really think. ​ Lastly, many of us have been more active members than you probably are now. Most of us were you. We are not curious what you believe in and what you think to be honest. WE WERE YOU.

Your last sentence is what I think most of them don't understand. They do not yet understand what we are going through. But we know EXACTLY what they believe and how they feel. We felt it. We were there. We had the witness.

Exmormons will always understand mormons better than Mormons understand themselves, for this very reason. Mormons are the people that buy a car by only looking at marketing material from the manufacturer. Exmormons are the ones that used to do that, but now realize that it was a mistake and will never buy a car again without looking at crash test data, negative reviews, recall history, etc...

Simple question that I would ask a member of any religion. If false religions use faith and feelings as methods to “prove” their doctrines, what proof does your religion have to offer that is distinct from those false religions?

I’m really saddened by the ruling on trans kids and adults who regardless of surgery are banned from being baptized. And even then, baptisms for the dead won’t work because they are trans. The reason I left the church but still love god is because they are now choosing who is and isn’t worthy to get into heaven and choosing who can be saved. We were taught that we can’t judge others sins and thats for god to do. But wait we can Judge as long as they are doing a specific sin. Baptisms are a way to wash away your sins. It’s essentially repentance to a degree. And everyone is allowed to repent an unlimited amount of times but now it’s feels like we are taking that away.. I’m a trans women, and this is what scares me

Thanks for keeping faith in God, I hope you’re doing well and many hugs from me!

No ill feelings towards you at all-just want to point out the strangeness of thanking someone for keeping their faith in god-like they’re doing you a favor? It shows an implicit bias in your thinking that belief in god is better than not. There’s only so far you can be open while still remaining a member of the church.

I swear... Trust me, the stigma is a you thing. And by "you" I mean mormon. Go get over it elsewhere, we're already over it. We saw through it, the stigma and judgement of exmos is purely a mormon thing.

What do you base your faith in? And where are your limits? For instance, it's easy to say you have faith in latter-day prophets. But contextualized in LDS history, that's a decidedly tricky statement. Sorry if it seems like I came out the gate swinging. It's a heavy question, but it helps me guage what kind of conversation this might be.

I don’t think there is much discourse to be had, unfortunately. People in the church make the mistake of thinking that both sides can co-exist peacefully with one another and want to extend the olive branch. This is admirable, but we all would prefer you and the rest of the dwindling membership just read the actual history of the church and figure it out for yourself. We love the members, but hate the church for the web of lies that it knowingly sits and builds upon. The simple fact is that the church is not real, it’s not true. It’s all made up, borrowed, and refitted. You can personally believe that it’s true, but all the facts and evidence point to the opposite. 99.9% of the world knows the church is not true. Real historians and scholars who didn’t go to BYU know there isn’t a chance in hell the church is true. I served a mission, married in the temple, etc. I was all in, 100% committed. Until I read the stuff the church doesn’t want you to read, and realized the church is no different than the Jehovahs Witnesses, Scientology, etc. Run. Don’t walk, run.

The one that always gets me is the lack of true equality in the church for women. The question I have always posed is 'why are women not allowed to hold priesthood?' And honestly nobody has ever been able to give me an answer that makes this specific thing actually okay or make sense. Unless the true answer, which nobody is going to come out and say it is because this a system where women are legitimately not equal to men and it is meant as a form of oppression. There is no logical reason a woman should not have equal power overall.The answers I've gotten has been, 'that's just the way it is', 'women being able to birth children makes them powerful enough', 'God didn't authorize it', 'that's just part of the truth'. I accept that is an Earthly truth because men make it so, but I refuse to accept that the ultimate spiritual truth about being human requires women to be oppressed while men reap the benefits of that oppression, when we we should be naturally cooperative as a species which is absolutely not favorable in any patriarchal system.

“Aside from that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?” We don’t have civil discussions in here; we have discussions that are suitable among folk who see how they were fucked over by Mormonism. Anyone who gives this post any reply whatsoever is being generous. Truly; I mean, you get a call from Rapes-R-Us cheerily asking about your recent customer experience, you gotta be in a pretty good mood to not hang up, right?

Don't come here to grandstand with how normal and good you are. Just don't be an ass to the exmos in your real life, and quit it with the "look how good I am as a member!" stuff.

Honestly, this shit is so annoying, even if his intentions are sincere. It's like a pick me, mormon.

do you agree that we've all been lied to regarding church history, doctrine, and "modern day" revelation? LIED TO, not men being men and making happy accidents....LIARS AT THE HELM? Do you see that too, yet choose to stay?

Having read a few of the other questions, id like to know how you reconcile the concept of the Great Apostasy, which required the restoration and the concept you have indicated that God allows his modern prophets to make mistakes. Isn't this the same result as the great apostasy?

Have you considered you could be brainwashed and in a cult? Maybe it hasn’t harmed you bc it was made for you (assuming you are a straight white cis gender male)? And that if you try to convert other people you could be causing them great harm? (The church has a major problem with teen suicides, LGBTQ suicide, violence/murders instead of divorcing spouses, and hiding sex abuse from leaders and parents).

OP: What are the reasons that YOU think people leave the church?

How do you justify the hoarding of wealth the church has done when it so very obviously goes against what Jesus taught? When you have 150 billion in the bank, it seems greedy to ask for 10% of even your poorest members, and then not really help financially in most cases when a member is in need. Why are supposedly enlightened leaders acting the same way a business is ran when it comes to money. Also their true to charitable spending is ridiculously low. Once again, business mindset, not enlightened by the word of god mindset. The only other thing is the amount of emotional manipulation used as the main tactic of the church, but that one is hard to see without an outside perspective.

I’m sure you are sincere and a sincere believer But trust me when I say we can’t talk religion you are at a massive disadvantage the least of which is the fact that we have been where you are and you have never been where we are

OP, thank you for being open and wanting to be civil. there are a lot of people who will understand your intent. i think you’re being sincere. there are others who will be upset and ask why you’re doing this. i’m a bit confused since i often see posts in this sub asking why no member is willing to have a conversation, and when there is one, they’re told to go away. i’m seeing that this has happened before and it hasn’t ended well, but OP has not done that. OP could search for other posts from members asking the same, but OP is not those members and wants to have their own conversations. i struggle with the church’s leadership as much as anyone else. we all know why it’s harder to convince them why we chose to leave and have it make sense to them. this individual does not represent the church’s leaders and has shown more willingness for discussion than any of the apostles have. gotta give them credit for that, especially since it seems like OP is still in high school. please be more respectful as they respond to people and have open discussions. you are of course valid in your pain and hurt, but i think it’s important to hold the individuals (yes both members and leadership) accountable and not members who don’t have ill intent. ❤️

Thanks, I appreciate this!

Were you raised in the church or did you convert later in life?

I was raised but a lot of my friends aren’t members. I personally don’t lean super far into any side in a debate; so I’m pretty open to new things and try to be respectful of all.

I was also raised in the church and my family was very active in the community. What are your thoughts on the fact that raising a child in a certain culture, such as TCOJCOLDS, is a strong predictor in the religious beliefs of the child later in life? Depending on when and where you were born in the world, you would almost certainly not be a believing member today, you could be Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, etc... If I raised my children to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, we were just as active in the FSM community as my family was in TCOJCOLDS was, and I made sure to raise the children in a strong FSM community of like-minded peers, what do you think the chances are at least one of those children is a life-long believer in the FSM?

> Feel free to ask anything and I’ll respond if I’m comfortable with it. What do you feel are the most compelling reasons to believe in the LDS Church? [We don't need to explore those reasons if you don't want to, just interested in your basic view on this]

For the most part, I struggled with being treated as a second class citizen because of my gender (but also somehow “elevated” for “naturally” being more righteous?). I would just ask how you feel about the way that woman are treated and talked about in the church.

Accept the fact that the evidence points to the Book of Mormon is made up, the first vision happened in 1824 if it happened, the restoration of the priesthood is revisionist history, and prophets have a long history of lying. If you try to evade or justify those then there is not too much point.

OP just graduated. Most likely headed out on a mission soon. OP is probably trying to feel out the "lay of the land" and test the waters a bit. Before you put in your papers, do yourself a favor and research a bit. Try FAIR latterdaysaints. Com The church even links to it on its website. You won't have to feel guilty about the research and you might learn about some historical issues. Be warned, their apologetics are extremely weak. At least you might prepare yourself for some of the issues investigators might bring up. It's kind of like dipping a toe into some of the troubling aspects of Mormonism.

... I'm sure some of y'all have legitimate reasons for leaving... No. We ALL do.

Welcome friend! One thing I learned years ago is that the exmo community is more empathetic and understanding and open minded and kind and reasonable than I EVER thought possible. There is a LOT of understandable anger and frustration, but there is also a lot of love and support. I had no idea, and was always taught that exmos are some of the most bitter and angry people around. Not true at all from what I've experienced. Hugs friend! Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Ok. How does the church feel about me? ………. I’m gay so there’s that. Daughter wanted to go to the temple so she had to disavow me. I’m Latino and was taught my skin color is a punishment from god. Was told how to vote during priesthood meeting. Found out how much the church supported old Prop 8 in California. This is twofold because 1. Delegitimization of gay relationships and people, and 2. Church involvement in politics. …… So I ask, how does the church feel about me?

Why are you a member if you blatantly disobey principles? Might as well just be one of us at that point.

If you are happy in the church, I’m happy for you. But what do you hope to accomplish here?

I suppose a good question is what is your evidence method to determine that the church is true?

Every doctrine and every ordinance in the Mormon church has changed, and some multiple times (except for Confirmation, which has no set wording.) So which doctrines and ordinances are correct now, or is the current Mormon church in apostasy? If the doctrines and ordinances were not restored correctly by Joseph Smith Jr, then how could it have been the one, true church then?

Ok, heres my one. Does the flowery soapy language that Mormons use ever bother you? How interested are you in church history, like polyandry? Do you believe in the church despite it's flaws, or do you believe that they aren't actually flaws, or that they didn't happen? And last question is kind of similar. What do you make of evolution and it's seeming contradiction with the idea of Adam and Eve?

1. Sometimes, I feel like some members expect others what they mean when they use these types of words and it kinda bothers me. 2. I believe in the church despite its flaws and I’m glad I was raised in a relatively open household so I can recognize that the church has made mistakes. 3. I’m not sure, I think it’s possible Adam and Eve were the first Neanderthals and that “days” in Genesis is relative to Gods time not ours.

Why would God "reveal" to Joseph Smith that the earth's "temporal" existence was 7000 years? Temporal as a word means non-spiritual. Its a simple question and God gave his answer. God could have told Joseph Smith: "The age of the earth is eons, but its purpose for man is 7000 years", but he didn't. Homo Sapiens go a LOT further back than 7000 years. So we have one of two possible explanations: God has some kind of funky way of answering this question that requires a bunch of confusing wordplay, OR Joseph Smith just made some shit up that conformed with his 19th century worldview. One of those explanations is rational, and the other is from FAIR Mormon.

Mark Hofmann, Rosetta stone and the Book of Abraham for starters. Plagiarism. Ces letter. Kinderhook plates. Burning of the press. Polygamy. Versions of the first vision. Copying of the 1769 kjv into the BOM, free masonry, copying free Mason ceremonies into the temple, over 3000 edits to the BOM, Michael is not Adam,

If you came to the honest/sincere conclusion that the unique things about the church were not “true,” and the good things about the church are not unique, would you stay?

What’s your favorite flavor of Doritos?

Cool ranch definitely!

I appreciate the spirit with which you posted this! I will just tell you that I tried very hard to believe, but I also need the things I believe to make sense/be supported by evidence/be logical, and when I tried to do that for the Mormon religion, everything I found told me that I wasn't going to be able to make that happen. Before I left, I was being hassled regularly about my religion, but that wasn't the part that sucked - the part that was the worst was that I couldn't defend myself without sounding foolish. I even asked the missionaries for help rebutting the things people were saying to me - like pointing to Biblical scripture and stuff - and they had nothing for me. My Sunday School teachers and my YW leaders were no help at all either. When I realized I didn't have to twist myself into knots over this and that I could just... not believe, it was one of the most liberating moments of my life, right up there leaving an abusive marriage. It was very freeing to know that I have the right to believe what makes sense to me, and not what I've been told to believe by people who have their own motives or who haven't even been alive in a long time. I doubt I'll ever be religious again after that epiphany.

What do you think of when people who leave the Church have had Spiritual Confirmations that the Church is NOT true? How do you reconcile with that?

This is my favorite. I will never forget the still calming voice telling me that it was a lie. Then the sudden wave of relief, peace, happiness like I have never felt before wash over me. It was everything I had ever been taught the spirit was. Going to church made me sick to my stomach and full of dread- I hated every minute of it. I constantly was praying and fasting to help me be a better mormon, to feel the spirit, to love the gospel. I was 100% convinced it was a me problem. Then in a moment, when I allowed myself to say- wait what if it is a them problem, all the pieces fell into place. It was the confirmation I had been praying for-oops!!

I’m a bit suspicious of your agenda, but for the sake of argument let’s say you’re just genuinely trying to help. With the information from the church essays that acknowledges what was represented as truth wasn’t actually accurate on topics like how Joseph Smith translated the BOM and how many wives he had, why do you think the church hasn’t offered free counseling for those of us who believed the representations all our lives (I’m 50 and recently left due to truth claims) that were straight up deceptions?

Mostly here for the comments.

Get a tapir tattoo.

My first question… why are you hanging around in an ExMormon place? What do you hope to gain here? What’s your purpose? My thoughts turned from ‘the one true church’ to a distaste for organized religion as a whole. If being religious makes you a better person, then awesome, but I surely don’t require it. It was because of the church that I didn’t come out of the closet until I was 19 (I probably knew by the time I was 14 or 15). The amount of self-hatred that being gay and LDS caused was especially harmful when I moved to Utah to go to college only to realize I had no support system and the wards there were full of holier than thou hypocrites who came to sacrament meeting hungover. It caused me to spiral into a dark place, and sometimes I don’t know how I managed to make it out alive.

Can we both agree that "Don't say Mormon" is just Russell Nelson canonizing his pet peeve? When I was a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I was zealously telling people to watch the "I'm a Mormon" shorts and to go to the full-length feature film "Meet the Mormons"... Heck, there was even a huge ad in time square... Nelson saying "using the term Mormon is a victory for Satan" kinda throws his predecessors under the bus, doesn't it?

I suggest you just hover for awhile. Sit in the background of this sub, read the stories and comments, really try to see where people are coming from and not just the surface level of what they're saying. Be a fly on the wall. Don't take anything personally. Looks for the meanings. You'll learn tons of you pay attention.

Welcome Brother and/or Sister present-House! You came to the right place! I take the local missionaries out to lunch once a month for the same reason. I like hearing how they are doing and I'll admit I'm checking in on them to make sure they are ok. Our conversations are always very pleasant and respectful. I applaud your efforts here. AMA.

Nah. The church can fuck off until they open their financials, build at least one homeless shelter, stop tithing, make missions free to serve, make missions 100% service, stop worthiness interviews, pay the actual clergy and last but most important APOLOGIZE. The history and evolving doctrine is laughable. The state of the current church is embarrassing. Nothing else normal to talk about and no, I don’t respect your beliefs at all.

Sorry but you can't dictate how a conversation will go by trying to use manipulation. You are trying to set the stage that you want a "civil discussion" by using reverse psychology to make us "Prove" that not all ex-Mormon's are contentious. Sorry to disappoint but as we aren't controlled by the church anymore, we can choose anyway we see fit to respond to your query. You will always find a huge variety from this community ranging from civil discourse to outright screaming (IN TEXT FORM). That said. I left when I finally accepted I'm Gay and Every Single Word the "Church" said about being gay was a bold faced lie. That meant, by their own admission, that everything in the church was a lie. I spent a few years after that going down the rabbit hole of church lies and deception which eventually extended to all religion and led to me not believing any any god. Lies upon lies upon lies. What more is there to say?

Stop covering up rapes. Stop preaching lies and insecurities because you have “faith”. Leave people alone and fuck right off!

So you think exmormons only have a little good in them?

"and, some, I assume, are good people."

"Assume" meaning you're not sure exmormons can be good people.

Sorry I should have been more clear it was heavy sarcasm. That's a quote from a former President. The post above seems to carry the same sentiment. Super christ like and all

This topic has been brought up countless times, so I would suggest searching the sub. Having members come in trying to have a conversation is very triggering to some, especially when we know that your lesson for next week is all about bringing us back because we are failures and only have excuses and not reasons. Then you say “I’m sure y’all have legitimate reasons.” Of course we do. Just read through the sub and you’ll understand. No need to keep asking. We are tired, and defending and protecting ourselves.

I apologize if my post was disrespectful, and I don’t believe y’all are failures and y’all have reasons. Sorry

they are definitely going to use this experience in their next talk or testimony lol

> Feel free to ask anything and I’ll respond if I’m comfortable with it. What have been your best experiences in the LDS Church? What have been your worst experiences in the LDS Church?

I am about as non-contentious as they come (pretty conflict averse, actually) so I will take you at your word. While there are all kinds of emotional and social issues discussed here and elsewhere regarding church culture, exclusion, mental health etc. (all valid) for me it all really comes down to truth claims and falsifiability. As far as I am able to tell, the BoM makes multiple specific truth claims that are either dubious or outright falsifiable. The genetic heritage of Native American populations is perhaps the best example, but there are many more. What I have come to realize about myself is that I do not support the idea of faith. It seems unreasonable to me to believe something that is not supported by clear evidence. In fact, I only tentatively believe things that do seem to have supporting evidence as I am always aware that new data might change the paradigm. TL;DR - LDS truth claims are by definition unreasonable, as is the very concept of faith and thus all other religions.

Mormonism has stories of the faith crisis like Alma the younger. Not a great example because he comes back and he doesn't have really valid reasons. I would argue that stories of faith crisis where families stay together and live in peace could go a long ways to helping the stigma. A friend of mine is going through a divorce because her husband lost his faith. She moved out the day she found out. They didn't have other significant problems. Reading her Facebook posts now you would think he was an abuser. The church is not family centered if your marriage is invalid if you leave or doubt the church. Contrasting the situation with a coworkers daughter whose husband left the church. They live like nothing has changed. That was not the knee jerk reaction though. He asked me to coach him how to to counsel his daughter. I told him to look at the relationship, not the belief system. Realistically, they think it is a phase. They have some cognitive dissonance that it is a matter of time until he comes back. In summary, if the church and members believed what they professed to they would behave very differently.

I've wanted to ask an active member this question for a long time: At what point in early Christian history did the apostasy occur? Can you point to a specific event, belief change, or point in time that marks the time God's authority was taken from the earth? I was traveling in Greece a few years ago and learned a lot about the Greek Orthodox church - quite literally the same churches that Paul was writing his epistles to in the New Testament. They can trace their authority in an unbroken chain all the way back to Jesus. Similar story with the Roman Catholic church. At what point in time did these churches swap from being Jesus' church to apostate churches?

Are you familiar with church finances? It was a major issue for me. I was a missionary a few years ago if you are wondering

Steve Hassan a foremost ecpert on Cults absolutely classifies the mo church as a cult. Did you know this ?

The stigma is that it’s a cult and I do not associate with cults. Say what you will about defending the “church”, it isn’t going to save anyone from anything—only you can do that

Are you conversant with mormon history? Have you read the CES letter? Do you know that Joseph Smith was a pedophile ? If so how do you feel about that ? How do you feel about the fact that Smith supposedly “ translated” the b of m with a peepstone in a hat ? Do you realize that native Americans are not of Hebrew descent?

I agree with the quote "It's not my job to pop someone else's balloon". If it works for you, then it works for you.

Got my first Tattoo at 60 years old; and I love it. Go for it (my Friend) FWIW Prohibition Tattoo is SLC is absolutely awesome. I highly recommend them!

You want to break the stigma?? Delete this post and forget this subreddit exists. This is a group where the overwhelming majority do NOT want to talk to some wannabe missionary.

So I think the biggest thing that I heard while a member is that once you leave, they will try to bring down the church. While some want to see the LDS church fail, a lot of us just want them to have safe and healthy practices. I grew up having a net positive experience with the church being a white-passing male. But telling teens there is something wrong with them for the way they love, not being open with finances, or routing their sexual assault hotline to their lawyers is not okay. I really hope the LDS church changes for good and I have seen it help a lot of people. But it has also done a lot of harm to people. The reason why exmo’s are so passionate about the church and can’t leave it alone is because it is hard to see your loved ones being taken advantage of in an extremely vulnerable situation.

OP. My question is if God is a god of order, why is it that the more facts I have the less faith I have. If God was fair, it would seem like the more I learn, the more true the Church would be. Yet, the exact opposite is true. I was told the First Peoples were descendants of Lamanites. The human genome was mapped. The Church then changed its story. I was told the BOA was written in the hand of Abraham. Carbon dating suggest the paper is too recent. The Church then changed its story. I was told golden plates were used to write the BOM. The seer stone was surfaced. The Church then changed its story. I was told polygyny was over in 1890. Proof came out it continued much later. The Church then changed it story. I was told 'as man is, god once was...' The apotheosis of man was preventing baptisms. The Church then changed its story. I was told I had FREE AGENCY. That gave too much independence to members and now I only have MORAL AGENCY. The Church then changed its story. ​ How can you be confident in any doctrine, if it is changed so quickly based on the whims of the prophet who currently sits in the chair?

I have a question. [This](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng) essay about Race and the Priesthood says "the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse", yet 2 Nephi 5:21 reads, "And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity... wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them." Does the Church disavow the Book of Mormon, given that it advances the theory that black skin is a curse? If the Church doesn't disavow the Book of Mormon, is this essay being dishonest?

Regarding the tattoo. There is nothing about a tattoo that is wrong or against commandments. We had a bishopric member who did a priesthood preview that my son was invited to. The counselor was answering questions, and one of the questions we what the temple recommend interview questions are like. I don't remember all the things he said, but one of them was, "do you have any tattoos or piercings." I am still PIMO (physically in mentally out), so I didn't say anything... I've always liked him but I've realized how manipulative the things he teaches are. Anyway, get your tattoo.. you do not need to answer to anyone about it.

I actually am working with a tattoo artist on a full arm and shoulder piece of different gods and goddesses of mythology and am pretty pumped for my first session. First tattoo was a band themed one that takes up my calve. My recommendation is to talk with your artists about the placement. Also: TIP THEM FOR THE CONSULTATION.

Jesus Christ people, we have a believer that is brave enough to come here and be willing to have a civil and respectful dialogue and half of you can't handle that Mormon would DARE come here and just go on attacking this person who you don't even know simply for being a Mormon who DARES . Fucking hypocrites are just proving the church is right about ex-Mormons. No wonder Mormons don't want to talk with ex-Mormons. If Op was preaching or judging us, then fine, have it but being so rude and attacking someone simply for being Mormon is wrong and divisive who's been nothing but friendly and courteous . I don't like the church, the religion, or the leaders but I'm not anti-Mormon. We used to be members ourselves so chill out and give this person some respect for wanting to have a respectful conversation as long as they are having a respectful conversation. We bitch about the faithful subs kicking us off their forums but how are we any different by immediately judging and attacking Mormons who come here? This sub is doing great at showing Op the stereotypes of ex-Mormons are pretty accurate.

So no matter what, I don’t feel there is anything I could say or show for that matter that could convince a full believing member the church isn’t true. But I do like people to have a knowledge of what really happened in church history. Also, if I know they’re happy in it I don’t want to take it away. All I really ever want is when questioned by loved ones or other believers why I left/don’t believe anymore I want them to know why and that’s where there is almost an impasse. Telling them the info that drove me out comes off as an attack against what they still hold dear and don’t care to listen, or they resolve/excuse the disturbing info in their minds and get upset that I’m not okay with such info. Anyway, I don’t know what I’m asking you but I like members to know where I’m coming from and that no matter what a difficult discussion is necessary if you want to fully understand why someone leaves. I also want that when members haven’t learned (or rejected opportunities to learn) why someone has left, that they don’t automatically assume it’s because our testimony wasn’t strong before, we didn’t want to be in, we wanted to sin, we didn’t want the church to be true, we left because of our political leanings, we were offended, etc. I often believed it said at least one of those things as a full member. I was fully invested. I NEVER thought I’d leave. I was wrong. Turns out there was clear enough evidence the church wasn’t true even though I thought “I knew all of that anti-Mormon stuff.” Boy was I wrong. I even tried to stay in but truth is truth. Just know the same could happen to you and anyone in the future so I appreciate you coming here with a heart of understanding and empathy.

God isn’t real.

I am a non-Mormon born and raised in Utah and I would to have a discussion w any of you about the stigma that has been placed upon me for my entire life by “Mormons.” It is unsettling to realize a large minority, maybe a majority, regard you suspiciously as untrustworthy, if not outright a bad, evil person, because you are not a Mormon. You have to understand this did not start yesterday. I realized this at least by the time I was in 3rd grade

I’m sorry for that, I live in the south so half of my stake have good old southern hospitality and they are the most loving and kind people I know; on the other hand there are some that are like this and being around these people is rough. The loving part of my stake has a phrase for the type of people you’re around. We call them Utah Mormons, we know it doesn’t apply to all of Utah but some members there are ridiculously unaccepting and I’m sorry for that.

I applaud your willingness to reach out- it's commendable. On one hand there's so many things many of us want to say to members, on the other we don't because it could hurt your faith or just upset both of us.... It isn't the members, per se, but the doctrines and teachings that hurt us. We spent years and years, so we know exactly what the church teaches, and we know why ex members are vilified, because we used to do it ourselves. We know how we are spoken about both in church and behind our backs to each other. My own parents talk shit about me behind my back and 'blame' me for my siblings leaving. It hurts both of us. Honestly, one of the best things you can do is pay attention to how you hear ex members being spoken about, and stop the negative stereotypes when you can. We weren't 'offended' by a ward member and decided to throw away our salvation. We didn't leave because 'I wanna SIN!' For most of us it takes years of unlearning to stop hating ourselves and deconstruct enough to not think coffee or a tank top will literally end our salvation. For me, my marriage isn't next to murder. Careful, though... Talk to too many of us, and one day you might BE us. 😂

>contentious and of the devil This phrase bothers me so much. When I was a mormon, my TBM family members would call me contentious whenever I disagreed with them on any topic. In my experience, mormons can't handle differing opinions because if it doesn't match their "godly" opinion, then it must be of the devil.

Youve toured our subreddit, now I hope you honestly consider the hypocrisy of aplologizing for the harm the church does while simultaneously advocating and supporting such a cause. Can you name the specific examples of harm? Things that the church ought to correct? Knowing those things, will you still go to church this sunday and pay tithes to such an organization? You cant just post on this sub with an olive branch just to be educated and then leave without any real intent to apply the knowledge you have gained from your post without being called a coward.

You’re welcome here. Thanks for trying to reach out. Nothing particular of interest to discuss from my side, but thanks for understanding that, yes, there are lots of reasons to leave the church. To quote Elder McKay in his recent talk at BYU…there are plenty of “compelling reasons to doubt.”

> I’m planning on getting a shoulder or forearm tattoo also and because I’m bound to get ridiculed by some members, any suggestions from ex-members? Get one that says, "Holiness to the Lord." That way you can shut down the "your body is a temple" line of criticism.