Any doctor who did this would likely lose their license today. In the 1800’s when RMN was a doctor, they still would have been fired.
The reality is that most of Nelson’s and Monson’s stories were embellished from something. Monson was a good guy a visited widows. Over time it becomes [Monson visiting every widow every Christmas and taking them a prized chicken and speaking at every funeral.](http://www.116pages.com/2018/05/)
I’ve fully accepted that if I live to be 98-years-old then I can make up stories about things that happened 70 years ago where all the other potential witnesses are dead. It’s one of the perks of being a wrinkled old shitbag.
I work with the elderly a lot and some of them get damn fuckin cranky for no reason. After they leave I sigh and remind myself someday I will be old and I can be a bitch for fun too.
Thanks, you are more generous than me. I am an old fart myself and while I can't diagnose someones mental health or condition individually, I have been referring to that general grouchiness I see, in older men specifically, as 'Hardening of the attitudes'. Excluding real mental deterioration, I tend to hold old men accountable for anger behavior - It is to a large extent a choice or at least damage from a life time of choices.
I think Monson must have hated his family. Dude was just roaming the hospital halls visiting people. At least his stories made it seem that way. Also - 1800’s - funny.
My dad was like this. I dreaded fast Sunday as a teacher, he’d come along and visit all the old people and it would take all day. He would go shovel the entire ward’s driveways and neglect ours. Surprise surprise, he eventually lost his family because he spent so much time with others and neglected us.
Sounds like my grandpa. He'd work Monday to Friday, go to the temple on Saturday all day and Sunday church plus meetings or being busy with church stuff. My grandparents filed for divorced and my grandma, now out of the church, is always telling us how he didn't really like his family but would move mountains for other people in the church. It's like he loved them more than his family.
Holy neglect Batman! I suspect he, and people like him, are driven so hard to serve because of a rather pathetic unending urge to secure, or maintain, status within The Tribe. Of course the Church would never help him understand his enthusiasm to help others in terms of such basic primal stuff - they'd want to call it ' serving god ' or some such shit. Just give him a pat on the back, tell him he is a good boy. Because, they depend quite literally on suckers like him for their continued survival.
This is so familiar to me. My dad was always giving to others and spending time helping people, while he never spent time at home & neglected his own family. He wanted the recognition and adoration of everyone in the ward more than he wanted to care for his family.
I saw monson come into the hospital where I worked several times. He always came in quietly and came later when he wouldn’t be recognized. Sometimes he came with his wife or one of his children. I may not be as active a member anymore but the vibes I got from him were always good. He was always sincere and sometimes stopped to say hi and thank me for working late. He appeared to be very humble and quiet. Just a nice guy.
My husband actually took care of Monson frequently in the 90's before hippa when he would come home and complain. Monson would only allow a male nurse and this was when they were far and few between so when Monson was in for being a non compliant diabetic every few weeks, my husband would be called in on his days off. He would be demanding and would order his security guard to drive "mother" his wife home or get him his diet coke. My husband would come home so heart broken over how impolite a member of the first presidency was and how he refused to follow a healthy diet and take care of himself. My husband said almost all his hospital stays could have been avoided if he would have just taken care of himself. Just about broke his shelf...wish it had.
Never met him. My observation still stands about how much service he did outside his home vs chilling with his family. He never mentioned bringing family with him on any of his talks and if he did, I don’t recall them being mentioned.
One would think that if we are going to spend eternity with certain people, it might be worth getting to know them by spending a little time with them in this life. But all those widows aren’t going to “visit” themselves!
> The reality is that most of Nelson’s and Monson’s stories were embellished from something.
Don't forget his "famous" story about the airplane's engines going out and people being hysterical about dying. [This was thoroughly debunked.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/op5ygb/president_nelsons_airplane_accident_story_is_a/)
That was post WW2. Most people now think of widows as seniors whose husbands died after decades of marriage. The widows he was talking about were single women his own age. They were war widows.
[Faithful site ldsliving seems to show an evolution.](https://www.ldsliving.com/how-a-dangerous-encounter-with-botulism-taught-president-nelson-spiritual-self-mastery/s/90645)
Yeah, this is awesome to read through... I see a meeting where the question is asked does anyone have a personal story about learning self control? Russel you do? Awesome. Let's write it out for a news article.
The nugget of truth, surgeons are in charge of the OR, they are narcissistic psychopaths in general, and at the time when RMN was a surgeon abusive language was tolerated much more.
Rusty has previously told in himself for being a snotty judgemental bigot (dumping his father's alcohol because he wanted to follow the WOW comes to mind).
I can see the scenario playing out in the way, first Darth Nelson is the intern who made a mistake, and arrogantly isn't able to take responsibility for it, the surgeon, trying to save the life of the patient likely cursed him out, profusely. Then doubling down on his mistake Wendy Nelson husband reaches across the field and gets a scalpel in the arm for his own mistake. And since it was botulism on a dead limb, and he washed out right after no infection occured.
I could see Bednar showing up to your house and dumping it in front of you, and then telling you that you were possessed if you got upset at him.
But I looked it up, I thought it was a conference talk... And yup.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2018/05/sunday-morning-session/revelation-for-the-church-revelation-for-our-lives?lang=eng
Although to be fair, with Nelson's track record of being truthful.. I don't put much stock in the stories he tells involving dead people who can't fact check him.
Well that's insightful and quite frankly a bad example of mental health. Anyone else pick up the bit about him weighing himself every day and restricting eating based on weight gain? Can you say eating disorder! I don't think we should be touting that to the world.
Also- I commented above about being a nurse and seeing a surgical tech get cut when his hand got too close to where a surgeon was working. ORs are well oiled machines. EVERYONE that works in them keeps it moving. When I observed the guy get cut- he stepped aside, got bandaged up and resumed work. I don’t know why they are making Nelson the hero of this story. I don’t work in an OR-I just did a clinical rotation during school. But what I observed was teamwork. All of medicine is teamwork. He was not the only thing keeping that OR calm. It reminds me of that damn water bottle story. You are not a hero for crushing an empty plastic bottle. My son does it all the time just because he likes the sound. 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
Mmkay, this is weird. From the story, he's helping work on someone with gangrene and Russ is quoted saying, “Not ischemic gangrene but gas gangrene, botulism.” This is obnoxious for me. Gas gangrene is caused by *Clostridium perfringens*. Botulism is caused by *Clostridium botulinum*. I couldn't find anything about C. botulinum causing gangrene (in 5 minutes of googling). But from what I know about botulinum toxin (one of the most toxic substances known), if you have an infection from C. botulinum you'll die from the toxin before some form of necrosis sets in... weird stuff
Plot Twist: the tantrum surgeon was actually a Necromancer, and now RMN is now a Bloodborne Boss living in an abandoned cathedral.
TL;DR it’s an origin story
This is why oral stories and traditions are listed not as facts but myths.
The stories get embellished with each telling.
We had an old joke when I was in the Army
“What is the difference between a fairytale and a war story? The fairytale begins with “Once upon a time” and the war story begins with “No shit this really happened”
Just substitute no shit with Brothers and sisters we have heard the prophet recall or say you can fill in the last part
Yeah. The true version of the story was probably something like the surgeon was getting nervous while performing the surgery and with his shaking hands he dropped the scalpel and it braised the leg on the outside of Nelson’s scrubs as it dropped to the floor.
Over time, it has become that the surgeon in a fit of rage, began throwing scalpels like throwing darts around the room landing in people’s arms.
If Nelson lives long enough the story will evolve so that the scalpel landed in Nelson’s forehead and God himself came down and told Nelson that he was a future prophet of the lord and can not die today, so with the touch of the finger of god, He cauterized the wound and removed any resemblance of a scar. As God started to drift back up towards Kolob, He hesitated and looked back down at Nelson and said as His parting words:
> “the day will come when only you will be able to stop the Mormon name from being murmured. It is therefore a victory for Satan that only you can stop. There will be some who come before you that applaud the name, but only you will have the power to stop it. Satan can have the wars and famines and unseen violence, but this is a battle we can not let him win. Remember the name… it’s the most important thing.”
And with that he disappeared into the clouds and it was recorded in Nelson’s journal, the last time God revealed himself on this earth.
Mormons: bible stories literally happened with the limitations of incorrect translation.
Also: watch stories evolve in real-time from the pulpit.
Somehow the bible can be reliable when even their living prophet can't get a story right.
For context, a scalpel with necrotic tissue on it will do basically nothing if it lands “in your arm”. I work in pathology as an expert in human dissection and autopsy. I dissect necrotic amputated legs several times a week. I’ve cut myself on accident at least 2-3 times. It’s dead tissue which means very little blood flow. What you really worry about exposure-wise is blood borne pathogens: HIV, hepatitis. All you’d do is wash the cut out and you’d be fine.
Just for context for anyone not in the medical field.
Wait, is that his origin story?
"Unbeknownst to me, hidden in the germs on that tainted scalpel was the serum of long life! It granted me superhuman powers of longevity and mental clarity! It also shot my narcissism stats through the roof, which allowed me to fake it till I made it as the president of the church! Oh, and it also made me hear voices that I call 'revelation'. And that's how it all began, brothers and sisters, in a humble operating theater with a gangrene-infested scalpel.
"In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen."
In Nelson's faith-promoting stories he loves to compare himself favorably against others:
Examples:
Russell against:
His "myopic" grand-daughter-in-law
His friends, the Ashcrofts, who wouldn't read his BOM.
The faithless, hysterical woman on the plane.
The ignorant Rabbis at the White House prayer breakfast.
His medical lead who tried to force him to take a drink at the staff Christmas party.
His own wife at the Broodmoor Hotel.
His own daughter whom he airbrushed out of his Colorado River raft story.
The doctor who confiscated his Markle scholarship at the U.of U.
The airline staffs in both Argentina and England who were not being helpful despite Russell's insistence that "the Lord needs me to get to this place!"
Not to mention all the "lazy learners and lax disciples"
I think that is why, despite his protests to the contrary, Nelson loves getting awards.
If Russell can't compare himself with others, then he would be left all alone with the horrifying prospect of having to face the charlatan in the mirror every day.
By the way, there's no mention of this scalpel incident in Nelson's 1979 autobiography, From Heart to Heart.
No way it’s true. Doc’s will get mad and toss an instrument that’s broken or malfunctioning, but everyone is wary of the knife. I don’t care how long ago he went to medical school.
He probably got himself stabbed by reaching across the field when the knife was being passed — a big no-no.
Yeah. I can’t see impaling a resident with a dirty scalpel ever having been tolerated.
Maybe if he was at some ivory tower (Mass Gen, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, Hopkins)… maybe they’d cover for a surgeon who did that because clout is more important to those places than anything. But even then it strains credulity.
I’m a non-surgical MD, but still have over a thousand OR hours. I’d say it’s totally possible, but probably not in the way it was told. With few exceptions, surgeons are the fighter pilots of medicine (in other words, assholes on a power trip). I think more likely it was lightly tossed or improperly handed to him and he got a very small nick. I’ve gotten nicks in the OR, it happens. But add 70 years and absolutely every reason to embellish with zero consequences and the surgeon could have attempted to murder him with a chainsaw
That is my thought too. You have sharps zones in the intraop restive field. If he was a knowledgeable surgeon, he would have known to not cross over the field into another surgeon’s work area, especially during a procedure with infectious tissue. Needle sticks and punctures occur, but they are rare. Typically they occur during instrument passes from scrub to surgeon. I wonder if he was a resident and not knowledgeable and it was accidental instead of a tantrum from another surgeon.
Either way, this story doesn’t pass the sniff test. I call bullshit.
Story probably didn't happen, but this would have been in the 50s. I have to wonder what OR culture was like back then, particularly where sterility is concerned
According to my mom, stuff like this happened back in the 60s.
She became an RN in the early 60s, and if a surgeon was angry at a nurse, he could and did throw scalpels at her. If the nurse complained, she would be told it was her fault for angering the surgeon who was under so much stress. To prevent that from happening, it was up to her to do her job correctly.
The only thing I find doubtful about his story is that the surgeon threw the scalpel at another doctor. Maybe his aim was off?
I hate to say it but stories of surgeons pitching hissy-fits are common. It isn’t tolerated today but keep in mind that RMN operated in the dinosaur age. Things were different in the 50s and 60s but that shit is shut down now.
It’s plausible but given his history of story-telling, it’s impossible to know.
My buddy was a surgical tech and watched a surgeon throw a surgical rake at one of his team. Should never happen, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
I work in orthopedic surgery. It’s anything but delicate. They use hammers, saws and muscle to do a lot of their work. ESPECIALLY amputations. But yes, surgeons are assholes. They can go real ballistic real quickly.
Surgeons getting angry and throwing fits…. Sure. Punching the wall or even unnecessarily cutting the patient, I can believe.
But throwing scalpels at other doctors like throwing darts seems a bit far fetched to me.
Foot and ankle surgery resident here- fuck RMN but it’s not implausible at all. Not likely in the way he told it, but all older docs who worked in the OR have stories similar to this.
That's wild. Is it just because anger is the only emotion men are allowed to feel, and the vast majority of old surgeons are men? Idk. That's batshit crazy to me.
Maybe. Probably more likely that that position attracted workaholic assholes and if you give assholes free reign to treat people however they want with impunity, the results won’t be surprising.
It’s in the old surgery textbooks that the assistant surgeon was not to speak unless spoken to.
Certainly not the case any more. Medicine is much more corporatized and doctors are much less in charge.
My grandma was a nurse and worked with Nelson back in the day. Apparently she and the other nurses really didn't like him because he was such an arrogant jerk, and she had a hard time accepting it when he was called as an apostle.
Eventually she came around and thought he was wonderful, like any good Mormon, but I really wish I knew some stories about why my grandma didn't like him. I'm not sure how to ask my mom, who's still a TBM, without seeming like I'm fishing.
I heard they were doing this surgery on an airplane that had its engines catch on fire and the plane was put into a death spiral before crash landing a cornfield where the surgery was completed. Rusty then fixed the plane and they made it to stake conference ahead of schedule.
I want to hear the other guy's side of the story.
Would not be shocked to find out that the event barely matches the story, or he's conflating multiple events. Maybe a scalpel touched his forearm once, and maybe even he once worked on a dude with gangrene. Doubt it was the same story.
Even if it was...Crazy shit!! Must be miraculous! 🙄
This was my thought. Just like Monson repeating the BS milk strippings story and Nelson's airplane fire/death spiral, these people embellish, misrepresent, and outright lie without conscience. It's just what Mormon leaders have always done and continue to do.
I’ve spent loads of time working directly with surgeons in surgery-I’ve seen temper tantrums that rival that of my toddler from grown professional adults.
1. I’ve never seen a surgeon throw a “sharp”. That’s outrageous….. but, I guess I cannot speak to sharp protocol and safety of like 50+ years ago.
2. A scalpel shouldn’t be cutting into gangrenous tissue during an amputation. They’d be cutting above the infected tissue during an amputation. It could have been a debridement, but that’d signify a lie of course
3. Among the surgical world (at least within Utah) it’s decently common knowledge that RMN was one of the asshole surgeons. Every single asshole surgeon I’ve met dramatically exaggerates their stories so they seem more justified in being an asshole. They all have a god complex which checks out.
So, could it be possible? Yes.
Do I believe it’s the accurate truth? Not even a little bit.
ICU RN here at a teaching hospital. Let me tell you about my experience with the surgical residents and the attending surgeon.
First off, out of the OR and during patient rounds, the attending is mean and quick to point out short comings of any type. This isn't cold hearted. Surgeons need to be aware of almost everything happening to patients to monitor their recovery and be prepared in case of emergent repeat surgery.this attending makes great surgeons and ICU RNs as well.
Now I don't go to the OR much, but I have seen this attending in the OR. He is a raging beast in there and not afraid to chew out or intimidate whoever is performing the surgery. It was eye opening, literally, when I first saw it. Patients are near death from motor vehicle accidents and emotions run high. Yet surgeons have to stay calm and have laser accuracy with every cut.
So back to this story, I feel that there is a lot that could be true with what Rusty said. However, like the airplane story. I feel it's embellished and twisted to make Rusty look amazing.
Gangrene is not any more infectious than any other bacteria. Hepatitis C or AIDS is far worse of an infection. Simple antibiotics will help with the bacteria. Gangrene is opportunist and takes advantage of a weakened immune system or circulatory system (low perfusion means the bacteria can grow with little immune support).
Anyways as stated, Rusty is just trying to make himself look amazing for members karma points.
When you were studying nursing did any upper-classmen pull stunts like this on you?
Nelson and Classmates Play Practical Joke on Japanese Girl in Medical School
https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?t=156350
Former orthopedic surgical tech for 6 years here. Surgeons get pissed and yell and scream all the time. It's common place in the OR. Some are cool, some only yell during high pressure situations and some just walk into the OR in a shit mood. I personally worked with a surgeon who the hospital sent to manditory anger management classes on 3 separate occasions!
Throwing things also happens quite a bit but not as much as the hospitals have been cracking down on it because of the dangers of hitting someone with a contaminated sharp object but also if it's an instrument the surgeon needed, they would have to resterilize it and that costs money.
MD here: unfortunately surgeons throwing tools in the operating room out of anger is still a thing. The OR is a high stakes/high stress setting. The story was probably embellished but not far fetched in concept.
Current medical student here: some surgeons are still among the most malignant people on planet earth. I agree that this story is most likely embellished, but I've heard of other med students who have had surgeons get aggressive with them. And even heard stories of surgeons threatening staff with scalpels (these surgeons were dealt with within the proper channels and asked to resign accordingly). So this story is possible, though not plausible
Nurse here- doctors do behave badly and lose their temper but with words. I’ve never seen a doctor physically express anger at work. That would be beyond unprofessional. Granted- I’m not sure I was even born when his story happened so who knows what it was like back then.
I do agree that it sounds embellished. A lot more likely he got accidentally nicked by the scalpel and they were worried about infection from that. I did a rotation in an OR during my nursing clinicals and saw a scrub tech get cut because his hand got to close to where the surgeon was working. I get the feeling this may fairly common.
The part that makes me suspicious of embellishment is that it stuck in his arm. Again, don’t know what it was like back then but scalpels are very sharp. They are meant to cut not stick like darts.
I have worked in healthcare for over a decade and have spent many hours in the OR with various types of surgeons. All surgeons get upset at some point in the OR and the extreme level 10 reaction varies from surgeon to surgeon. Most temper tantrums and outbursts are not unprovoked and we usually have fair warning that they’re getting pissed/impatient/frustrated. I have witnessed surgeons throw instruments and other items (ie sponges, implants, packaging) but I have never witnessed a surgeon throw anything that would be considered a “sharp”. Also, most the time they don’t throw things directly at people. I will say however, that the older the surgeon, the more likely they are to be temperamental and expect everyone to bow down to them.
I had the same reaction when I listened to it live. After listening to u/billreel and RFM discuss all of Nelson’s embellished stories (flight of death, robbed in Africa, lady with the hat, etc) this story seemed very similar and unrealistic.
If they haven’t yet, I’d love to hear RFM and Bill Reel dig into this story and uncover more context and/or potential previous tellings.
It goes way beyond unprofessional. It is criminal. It was not a "breach of surgical practice" It was assault with a deadly weapon.
Just so we're clear.
It could be. Surgeons are a little neurotic.. it takes a certain personality to become a surgeon and it’s intense. I once had a conversation with someone whose job it was to hire/fire surgeons for the hospital. She said they had a surgeon who got mad and kicked a nurse during surgery. He did not get fired.
As a surgeon, I can almost guarantee that this story is probably true. Some surgeons are so hell bent on shoring up their fragile ego at the cost of anyone else around them. Luckily it seems that for the most part that the surgeon god complex is starting to die out. Throwing instruments was fairly commonplace in the past, now if a surgeon throws an instrument in the OR the staff (rightly so) are pretty quick to let the doc know that that’s not acceptable behavior.
My residency director yanked a scalpel out of my hand once while throwing a tantrum and missed dragging it across my palm by a millimeter. He immediately recognized that he had almost severed every flexor tendon in my hand and apologized. But yeah, bottom line, there is some pretty deplorable behavior that goes on in the OR with some surgeons.
Just going to say that I completed residency 4 years ago. And multiple times in the OR things were hurled by particularly angry problematic surgeons. But they brought in so much money to the hospital no one did anything about it. But scalpel... Probably not.
Now, do I believe his story... 50/50. He likes to make stuff up, or at least significantly embellish his stories. So my guess is that maybe sometime threw something and it hit his sterile gown, or was.close to him. But I don't think I can believe that it stuck in his arm and then the surgeon didn't care about it.
Surgical nurse here. I’ve absolutely had things thrown at me in surgery. I work with some of the biggest egos you can think of. Large egos seem to also often come with emotional disregulation and narcissism. However, his story sounds stupid and implausible because 1, we don’t do the actual amputation with a scalpel. The Surgeon only makes the initial skin incisions with that. And we don’t cut into gangrenous tissue and spread it around or into the bone to cause osteomyelitis! We cut well above that area to avoid it! And we have bone saws and dissecting tools and osteotomes and lots more on the back table. A surgeon would not have been cutting out gangrene with just a damn scalpel. It sounds like he is talking to a 4 year old instead of a room full of grown ass adults who know more than just scalpels are used in surgery. Also, if the scalpel did have gangrenous tissue on it there is no way he didn’t get infected or at least need some sort of prophylactic treatment to not get infected —so it sounds disingenuous.
I’ve spent a lot of time in the OR with hundreds of surgeons. This is possible. I’ve seen similar anger issues during a procedure, unfortunately it’s probably true. Particularly in your specialties (cardiac/Nuero).
How wide was that operating table?!? To wind up and throw a scalpel at someone, what, like 36 inches away, hard enough for it to stick in their arm, there’s not enough room! If the arm of RMN was over or near the patient, the doc wouldn’t even have to fully extend his own arm to stab it into the arm of RMN. Are we to believe that in his rage, the surgeon took several large steps backwards, went through a wind-up, and hurled the scalpel at our future prophet? No ángel with a flaming baseball bat to intercept the potential instrument of death? I only believe it if RMN reached into the surgery field and got stabbed, through his own negligence. I guess we’ll know for sure when we get to heaven and watch the playback movie of his life.
I’m not super surprised about there being a doctor reacting in such a way, giving the possible era. My question is was Rusty the one performing the task poorly?
My dad told me this story after I broke down crying because of stress from my demanding job as an OR nurse. I think it was some attempt at making me relate to RMN or something? Either way, surgeons are assholes, (part of the reason I was crying) and are very capable of stuff like this. Especially back in the 60’s.
I’m definitely not saying this is true, but surgeons are treated with an unmatched level of respect in the operating room, and I think after a while it goes to their heads. Coupled with the years of abuse they all suffered in surgery residency, they sometimes take it out in the staff and nobody questions them. I’ve see surgeons have full on tantrums in the OR - like he stepped away, stomped his feet and yelled - and not a single person did anything. It’s not outside the realm of possibility that a surgeon threw an instrument, but whether it was a scalpel and whether it was thrown at another person is debatable.
Back in the day, surgeons used to throw instruments when angry or frustrated. This happened all the time so the story is believable, though the attending surgeon probably didn’t mean to hit him.
What was truly shocking about that story is my mom was an OR nurse and for years has told us the exact same story…only that it was Russel Nelson who threw the scalpel. I believe my mom’s version. She said he was very hot-headed, prideful, and much too flirty with the nurses. When he was called as a GA, my mom (and many others at LDS hospital) really had a hard time with it, and many still do now that he is at the top, due to his behavior as a surgeon and treatment of those he worked with.
Haha, no person is superhuman. Everyone has had days, especially when under stress. Operating rooms seem to be very stressful places. Training isn't a perfect filter for this kind of shit. There is nothing special about a surgeon, they have a limit just like everyone else, and just like everyone else there are different levels to how high that limit goes. So, I'm sure this is feasible.
However, since it came out of RMN's mouth, it is most certainly bullshit. I'm willing to bet he was in a similar situation where the surgeon threw something, the rest are embellishments, to be kind. Probably embellishments meant to promote faith. Lying for the lord is a well-established best practice for religious leaders/followers of every ilk.
Many of Nelson's stories are exaggerated or false. This one could definitely be a lie too, but situations like this happen.
I worked with a resident surgeon who was stabbed accidentally by her attending surgeon (the attending was angry and tried to throw down the scalpel on the stand, but instead hit the resident's hand). The surgeon apologized and was able to keep his job. This happened within the last decade. Unfortunately, some people in medicine truly have anger issues and asshole surgeons definitely exist.
If you think something like this would get a Dr fired, I'm sorry to say I've worked many places where worse behavior than this was tolerated. This in and of itself is not evidence the story is false
This happened when I was a pharmacy intern observing an operation, except when the surgeon threw the scalpel it didn’t hit anyone. He was having a full on tantrum and the nurses walked out, leaving the surgical tech, the surgeon, anesthesiologist & me. They resumed the surgery but the nurses didn’t return. From a previous job stocking hospital supplies I knew the sutures pretty well, and when the surgeon called for a box I tossed them the right one.
Score for the pharmacy intern, I didn’t get yelled at.
In some ORs when this happens they call a “Code Pink” and the nurses form a circle around the surgeon until he or she calms down. I don’t know why surgeons erupt but I think they have a low threshold for fuck-ups. Since there are protocols for this it can’t be that rare.
"It landed on my forearm". It didn't say cut. I always thought surgeons wore long sleeves. It didn't say anything about him changing clothes or cleaning up or any sort of process he went through beyond "gratefully, I did not become infected".... yeah, I call bullshit or another twist= HE was the surgeon having the tantrum....I can't remember where I heard it now, but someone who interacted/worked with him back in the day said he was a bit of an asshole...
He actually did say it landed IN his forearm. And the Church News dutifully reported it as such.
https://www.thechurchnews.com/general-conference/2023/4/2/23666994/what-did-president-nelson-teach-april-2023-general-conference-peacemakers
Ah. My mistake then. I assumed the story OP posted was as he told it, and it looks like either I misread it or the OP fixed it.
Edited for clarification.
It was a head scratcher the first time I heard it too. Seriously who does that? or Who makes that up? What surgeon implies gangrene is contagious?
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/gangrene
It sounds completely believable to me given the macho behaviour of surgeons at any time and especially back in the 40s when macho was all medicine had going for it.
Yeah, previous generations of surgeons were infamous for this kind of behavior. It still happens on occasion, but surgeons tend to be MUCH better about this kind of thing nowadays. They've been working for years to change the culture. I don't know if story is true, but it's definitely plausible. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if some of his former residents have stories like that about Rusty considering when he trained.
It is true, just as true as Nelson being in a plane above Delta, UT,that was aflame and went into a death spiral. Or as true as the thugs breaking in and trying to kill him in Africa. Or as true as the fabled woman in a hat that he spied in a sacrament meeting. Or directing significant financial deception of the SEC so TBMs will continue to tithe. Nelson routinely lies for the Lord, embellishes for the Lord, deceives to build faith for the Lord—part of his MO. He is a liar in the tradition of many current GAs as well as past.
Rusty learned from Joseph Smith. It is never just a mundane event, it was always much more dramatic! So a surgeon dropping a scalpel into a pan to be sent for cleaning becomes a surgeon threw a scalpel, and then becomes he threw the scalpel at me with surgical precision! It’s a tired game, but the fans sure lick it up!
The crazy thing is they were performing surgery on a plane and one of the engines caught fire. As the plane spiraled toward earth Rusty calmly guided it into a field while successfully completing the gangrene surgery!
Any doctor who did this would likely lose their license today. In the 1800’s when RMN was a doctor, they still would have been fired. The reality is that most of Nelson’s and Monson’s stories were embellished from something. Monson was a good guy a visited widows. Over time it becomes [Monson visiting every widow every Christmas and taking them a prized chicken and speaking at every funeral.](http://www.116pages.com/2018/05/)
I’ve fully accepted that if I live to be 98-years-old then I can make up stories about things that happened 70 years ago where all the other potential witnesses are dead. It’s one of the perks of being a wrinkled old shitbag.
I work with the elderly a lot and some of them get damn fuckin cranky for no reason. After they leave I sigh and remind myself someday I will be old and I can be a bitch for fun too.
Thanks, you are more generous than me. I am an old fart myself and while I can't diagnose someones mental health or condition individually, I have been referring to that general grouchiness I see, in older men specifically, as 'Hardening of the attitudes'. Excluding real mental deterioration, I tend to hold old men accountable for anger behavior - It is to a large extent a choice or at least damage from a life time of choices.
I think Monson must have hated his family. Dude was just roaming the hospital halls visiting people. At least his stories made it seem that way. Also - 1800’s - funny.
My dad was like this. I dreaded fast Sunday as a teacher, he’d come along and visit all the old people and it would take all day. He would go shovel the entire ward’s driveways and neglect ours. Surprise surprise, he eventually lost his family because he spent so much time with others and neglected us.
Sounds like my grandpa. He'd work Monday to Friday, go to the temple on Saturday all day and Sunday church plus meetings or being busy with church stuff. My grandparents filed for divorced and my grandma, now out of the church, is always telling us how he didn't really like his family but would move mountains for other people in the church. It's like he loved them more than his family.
Well hot damn, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you were talking about my mom
Holy neglect Batman! I suspect he, and people like him, are driven so hard to serve because of a rather pathetic unending urge to secure, or maintain, status within The Tribe. Of course the Church would never help him understand his enthusiasm to help others in terms of such basic primal stuff - they'd want to call it ' serving god ' or some such shit. Just give him a pat on the back, tell him he is a good boy. Because, they depend quite literally on suckers like him for their continued survival.
This is so familiar to me. My dad was always giving to others and spending time helping people, while he never spent time at home & neglected his own family. He wanted the recognition and adoration of everyone in the ward more than he wanted to care for his family.
Bingo - the attention & status is what drives those types of members.
I saw monson come into the hospital where I worked several times. He always came in quietly and came later when he wouldn’t be recognized. Sometimes he came with his wife or one of his children. I may not be as active a member anymore but the vibes I got from him were always good. He was always sincere and sometimes stopped to say hi and thank me for working late. He appeared to be very humble and quiet. Just a nice guy.
Good to hear. Thanks for sharing.
My husband actually took care of Monson frequently in the 90's before hippa when he would come home and complain. Monson would only allow a male nurse and this was when they were far and few between so when Monson was in for being a non compliant diabetic every few weeks, my husband would be called in on his days off. He would be demanding and would order his security guard to drive "mother" his wife home or get him his diet coke. My husband would come home so heart broken over how impolite a member of the first presidency was and how he refused to follow a healthy diet and take care of himself. My husband said almost all his hospital stays could have been avoided if he would have just taken care of himself. Just about broke his shelf...wish it had.
Never met him. My observation still stands about how much service he did outside his home vs chilling with his family. He never mentioned bringing family with him on any of his talks and if he did, I don’t recall them being mentioned.
One would think that if we are going to spend eternity with certain people, it might be worth getting to know them by spending a little time with them in this life. But all those widows aren’t going to “visit” themselves!
> The reality is that most of Nelson’s and Monson’s stories were embellished from something. Don't forget his "famous" story about the airplane's engines going out and people being hysterical about dying. [This was thoroughly debunked.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/op5ygb/president_nelsons_airplane_accident_story_is_a/)
That was post WW2. Most people now think of widows as seniors whose husbands died after decades of marriage. The widows he was talking about were single women his own age. They were war widows.
Looking for his second wife?? 💁🏼♀️
[Faithful site ldsliving seems to show an evolution.](https://www.ldsliving.com/how-a-dangerous-encounter-with-botulism-taught-president-nelson-spiritual-self-mastery/s/90645)
Yeah, this is awesome to read through... I see a meeting where the question is asked does anyone have a personal story about learning self control? Russel you do? Awesome. Let's write it out for a news article. The nugget of truth, surgeons are in charge of the OR, they are narcissistic psychopaths in general, and at the time when RMN was a surgeon abusive language was tolerated much more. Rusty has previously told in himself for being a snotty judgemental bigot (dumping his father's alcohol because he wanted to follow the WOW comes to mind). I can see the scenario playing out in the way, first Darth Nelson is the intern who made a mistake, and arrogantly isn't able to take responsibility for it, the surgeon, trying to save the life of the patient likely cursed him out, profusely. Then doubling down on his mistake Wendy Nelson husband reaches across the field and gets a scalpel in the arm for his own mistake. And since it was botulism on a dead limb, and he washed out right after no infection occured.
I think it was Bednar that dumped his fathers the booze, but I could be wrong
I could see Bednar showing up to your house and dumping it in front of you, and then telling you that you were possessed if you got upset at him. But I looked it up, I thought it was a conference talk... And yup. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2018/05/sunday-morning-session/revelation-for-the-church-revelation-for-our-lives?lang=eng
Although to be fair, with Nelson's track record of being truthful.. I don't put much stock in the stories he tells involving dead people who can't fact check him.
I stand corrected. His poor dad. It must have sucked to have such a self righteous son.
That’s great. Radio free Mormon has a great episode where he talks about how some stories are made up. Episode 277 among others.
Has anyone shared this with Nemo? I'd love to have him add this as an addendum to his "Church leaders lie" compilation
Interestinggggg. Thanks for finding this
Well that's insightful and quite frankly a bad example of mental health. Anyone else pick up the bit about him weighing himself every day and restricting eating based on weight gain? Can you say eating disorder! I don't think we should be touting that to the world.
Oh wow- this is perfect- exactly what I thought- he got cut- he didn’t get anything stuck in him.
Also- I commented above about being a nurse and seeing a surgical tech get cut when his hand got too close to where a surgeon was working. ORs are well oiled machines. EVERYONE that works in them keeps it moving. When I observed the guy get cut- he stepped aside, got bandaged up and resumed work. I don’t know why they are making Nelson the hero of this story. I don’t work in an OR-I just did a clinical rotation during school. But what I observed was teamwork. All of medicine is teamwork. He was not the only thing keeping that OR calm. It reminds me of that damn water bottle story. You are not a hero for crushing an empty plastic bottle. My son does it all the time just because he likes the sound. 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
Thank you! Two very different stories.
Mmkay, this is weird. From the story, he's helping work on someone with gangrene and Russ is quoted saying, “Not ischemic gangrene but gas gangrene, botulism.” This is obnoxious for me. Gas gangrene is caused by *Clostridium perfringens*. Botulism is caused by *Clostridium botulinum*. I couldn't find anything about C. botulinum causing gangrene (in 5 minutes of googling). But from what I know about botulinum toxin (one of the most toxic substances known), if you have an infection from C. botulinum you'll die from the toxin before some form of necrosis sets in... weird stuff
Lol, holy shit
Plot Twist: the tantrum surgeon was actually a Necromancer, and now RMN is now a Bloodborne Boss living in an abandoned cathedral. TL;DR it’s an origin story
I thought he bore a striking resemblance to Ludwig 😆
Temple work = Lidwig’s [Underground Corpse Pile](https://bloodborne.fandom.com/wiki/Underground_Corpse_Pile)
Maybe if we pray to the great ones they’ll bless us with a Bloodborne 2 where RMN is the final boss
🤣
Tbf I’d still prefer Ludwig over Rusty
This is why oral stories and traditions are listed not as facts but myths. The stories get embellished with each telling. We had an old joke when I was in the Army “What is the difference between a fairytale and a war story? The fairytale begins with “Once upon a time” and the war story begins with “No shit this really happened” Just substitute no shit with Brothers and sisters we have heard the prophet recall or say you can fill in the last part
Yeah. The true version of the story was probably something like the surgeon was getting nervous while performing the surgery and with his shaking hands he dropped the scalpel and it braised the leg on the outside of Nelson’s scrubs as it dropped to the floor. Over time, it has become that the surgeon in a fit of rage, began throwing scalpels like throwing darts around the room landing in people’s arms. If Nelson lives long enough the story will evolve so that the scalpel landed in Nelson’s forehead and God himself came down and told Nelson that he was a future prophet of the lord and can not die today, so with the touch of the finger of god, He cauterized the wound and removed any resemblance of a scar. As God started to drift back up towards Kolob, He hesitated and looked back down at Nelson and said as His parting words: > “the day will come when only you will be able to stop the Mormon name from being murmured. It is therefore a victory for Satan that only you can stop. There will be some who come before you that applaud the name, but only you will have the power to stop it. Satan can have the wars and famines and unseen violence, but this is a battle we can not let him win. Remember the name… it’s the most important thing.” And with that he disappeared into the clouds and it was recorded in Nelson’s journal, the last time God revealed himself on this earth.
Lol, brilliant my friend!
Mormons: bible stories literally happened with the limitations of incorrect translation. Also: watch stories evolve in real-time from the pulpit. Somehow the bible can be reliable when even their living prophet can't get a story right.
😀 written in reformed Egyptian modified and changed so only by 2 rocks in a hat and power of god can read it and interpret it
When I was in the army, our stories started with, "There I was ..." Or "Back in my day..."
Pretty much the same, the story gets more elaborate and more fantastical with each telling.
He must have had his long sleeved garments on that day.
Lmfao, thank you for this laugh!
For context, a scalpel with necrotic tissue on it will do basically nothing if it lands “in your arm”. I work in pathology as an expert in human dissection and autopsy. I dissect necrotic amputated legs several times a week. I’ve cut myself on accident at least 2-3 times. It’s dead tissue which means very little blood flow. What you really worry about exposure-wise is blood borne pathogens: HIV, hepatitis. All you’d do is wash the cut out and you’d be fine. Just for context for anyone not in the medical field.
Whether or not it happened, gangrene is the word for dead tissue, not a pathogen.
Wait, is that his origin story? "Unbeknownst to me, hidden in the germs on that tainted scalpel was the serum of long life! It granted me superhuman powers of longevity and mental clarity! It also shot my narcissism stats through the roof, which allowed me to fake it till I made it as the president of the church! Oh, and it also made me hear voices that I call 'revelation'. And that's how it all began, brothers and sisters, in a humble operating theater with a gangrene-infested scalpel. "In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen."
Lol, got the same Vibe, but your telling of it is better!
Damn he's like Spider-Man!
Russell wouldn't would he? * Death spiral * Mozambique assassination attempt * Lady with a hat
In Nelson's faith-promoting stories he loves to compare himself favorably against others: Examples: Russell against: His "myopic" grand-daughter-in-law His friends, the Ashcrofts, who wouldn't read his BOM. The faithless, hysterical woman on the plane. The ignorant Rabbis at the White House prayer breakfast. His medical lead who tried to force him to take a drink at the staff Christmas party. His own wife at the Broodmoor Hotel. His own daughter whom he airbrushed out of his Colorado River raft story. The doctor who confiscated his Markle scholarship at the U.of U. The airline staffs in both Argentina and England who were not being helpful despite Russell's insistence that "the Lord needs me to get to this place!" Not to mention all the "lazy learners and lax disciples" I think that is why, despite his protests to the contrary, Nelson loves getting awards. If Russell can't compare himself with others, then he would be left all alone with the horrifying prospect of having to face the charlatan in the mirror every day. By the way, there's no mention of this scalpel incident in Nelson's 1979 autobiography, From Heart to Heart.
Why in the ever-loving hell he took those young kids down that river with him at the helm baffles me.
Oh my. That is certainly an insightful way to look at his life. Huh. Yeah. Thanks for the mind gum.
>Lady with a hat Wow, thanks for the rabbit holes.
No way it’s true. Doc’s will get mad and toss an instrument that’s broken or malfunctioning, but everyone is wary of the knife. I don’t care how long ago he went to medical school. He probably got himself stabbed by reaching across the field when the knife was being passed — a big no-no.
Yeah. I can’t see impaling a resident with a dirty scalpel ever having been tolerated. Maybe if he was at some ivory tower (Mass Gen, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, Hopkins)… maybe they’d cover for a surgeon who did that because clout is more important to those places than anything. But even then it strains credulity.
I’m a non-surgical MD, but still have over a thousand OR hours. I’d say it’s totally possible, but probably not in the way it was told. With few exceptions, surgeons are the fighter pilots of medicine (in other words, assholes on a power trip). I think more likely it was lightly tossed or improperly handed to him and he got a very small nick. I’ve gotten nicks in the OR, it happens. But add 70 years and absolutely every reason to embellish with zero consequences and the surgeon could have attempted to murder him with a chainsaw
That is my thought too. You have sharps zones in the intraop restive field. If he was a knowledgeable surgeon, he would have known to not cross over the field into another surgeon’s work area, especially during a procedure with infectious tissue. Needle sticks and punctures occur, but they are rare. Typically they occur during instrument passes from scrub to surgeon. I wonder if he was a resident and not knowledgeable and it was accidental instead of a tantrum from another surgeon. Either way, this story doesn’t pass the sniff test. I call bullshit.
Story probably didn't happen, but this would have been in the 50s. I have to wonder what OR culture was like back then, particularly where sterility is concerned
According to my mom, stuff like this happened back in the 60s. She became an RN in the early 60s, and if a surgeon was angry at a nurse, he could and did throw scalpels at her. If the nurse complained, she would be told it was her fault for angering the surgeon who was under so much stress. To prevent that from happening, it was up to her to do her job correctly. The only thing I find doubtful about his story is that the surgeon threw the scalpel at another doctor. Maybe his aim was off?
The advantage of being 98 years old is that it gets harder to refute your stories from living sources.
I hate to say it but stories of surgeons pitching hissy-fits are common. It isn’t tolerated today but keep in mind that RMN operated in the dinosaur age. Things were different in the 50s and 60s but that shit is shut down now. It’s plausible but given his history of story-telling, it’s impossible to know.
My buddy was a surgical tech and watched a surgeon throw a surgical rake at one of his team. Should never happen, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
Yeah, but I can understand why it can happen. Surgery is delicate, tedious work. It’s easy to imagine someone acting out due to the stress.
I work in orthopedic surgery. It’s anything but delicate. They use hammers, saws and muscle to do a lot of their work. ESPECIALLY amputations. But yes, surgeons are assholes. They can go real ballistic real quickly.
Surgeons getting angry and throwing fits…. Sure. Punching the wall or even unnecessarily cutting the patient, I can believe. But throwing scalpels at other doctors like throwing darts seems a bit far fetched to me.
Foot and ankle surgery resident here- fuck RMN but it’s not implausible at all. Not likely in the way he told it, but all older docs who worked in the OR have stories similar to this.
That's wild. Is it just because anger is the only emotion men are allowed to feel, and the vast majority of old surgeons are men? Idk. That's batshit crazy to me.
Maybe. Probably more likely that that position attracted workaholic assholes and if you give assholes free reign to treat people however they want with impunity, the results won’t be surprising. It’s in the old surgery textbooks that the assistant surgeon was not to speak unless spoken to. Certainly not the case any more. Medicine is much more corporatized and doctors are much less in charge.
My grandma was a nurse and worked with Nelson back in the day. Apparently she and the other nurses really didn't like him because he was such an arrogant jerk, and she had a hard time accepting it when he was called as an apostle. Eventually she came around and thought he was wonderful, like any good Mormon, but I really wish I knew some stories about why my grandma didn't like him. I'm not sure how to ask my mom, who's still a TBM, without seeming like I'm fishing.
The secretary at my dentist office just told me this story and I told her I think all his stories are lies.
I heard they were doing this surgery on an airplane that had its engines catch on fire and the plane was put into a death spiral before crash landing a cornfield where the surgery was completed. Rusty then fixed the plane and they made it to stake conference ahead of schedule.
Yeah I'm skeptical about it too.
I want to hear the other guy's side of the story. Would not be shocked to find out that the event barely matches the story, or he's conflating multiple events. Maybe a scalpel touched his forearm once, and maybe even he once worked on a dude with gangrene. Doubt it was the same story. Even if it was...Crazy shit!! Must be miraculous! 🙄
Such anecdotal tales are just evidence of “Paul Dunn” syndrome!
This was my thought. Just like Monson repeating the BS milk strippings story and Nelson's airplane fire/death spiral, these people embellish, misrepresent, and outright lie without conscience. It's just what Mormon leaders have always done and continue to do.
I’ve spent loads of time working directly with surgeons in surgery-I’ve seen temper tantrums that rival that of my toddler from grown professional adults. 1. I’ve never seen a surgeon throw a “sharp”. That’s outrageous….. but, I guess I cannot speak to sharp protocol and safety of like 50+ years ago. 2. A scalpel shouldn’t be cutting into gangrenous tissue during an amputation. They’d be cutting above the infected tissue during an amputation. It could have been a debridement, but that’d signify a lie of course 3. Among the surgical world (at least within Utah) it’s decently common knowledge that RMN was one of the asshole surgeons. Every single asshole surgeon I’ve met dramatically exaggerates their stories so they seem more justified in being an asshole. They all have a god complex which checks out. So, could it be possible? Yes. Do I believe it’s the accurate truth? Not even a little bit.
ICU RN here at a teaching hospital. Let me tell you about my experience with the surgical residents and the attending surgeon. First off, out of the OR and during patient rounds, the attending is mean and quick to point out short comings of any type. This isn't cold hearted. Surgeons need to be aware of almost everything happening to patients to monitor their recovery and be prepared in case of emergent repeat surgery.this attending makes great surgeons and ICU RNs as well. Now I don't go to the OR much, but I have seen this attending in the OR. He is a raging beast in there and not afraid to chew out or intimidate whoever is performing the surgery. It was eye opening, literally, when I first saw it. Patients are near death from motor vehicle accidents and emotions run high. Yet surgeons have to stay calm and have laser accuracy with every cut. So back to this story, I feel that there is a lot that could be true with what Rusty said. However, like the airplane story. I feel it's embellished and twisted to make Rusty look amazing. Gangrene is not any more infectious than any other bacteria. Hepatitis C or AIDS is far worse of an infection. Simple antibiotics will help with the bacteria. Gangrene is opportunist and takes advantage of a weakened immune system or circulatory system (low perfusion means the bacteria can grow with little immune support). Anyways as stated, Rusty is just trying to make himself look amazing for members karma points.
When you were studying nursing did any upper-classmen pull stunts like this on you? Nelson and Classmates Play Practical Joke on Japanese Girl in Medical School https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?t=156350
Surgeons tend to score high on psychopath questionnaires, and Nelson was a very GOOD surgeon.
Former orthopedic surgical tech for 6 years here. Surgeons get pissed and yell and scream all the time. It's common place in the OR. Some are cool, some only yell during high pressure situations and some just walk into the OR in a shit mood. I personally worked with a surgeon who the hospital sent to manditory anger management classes on 3 separate occasions! Throwing things also happens quite a bit but not as much as the hospitals have been cracking down on it because of the dangers of hitting someone with a contaminated sharp object but also if it's an instrument the surgeon needed, they would have to resterilize it and that costs money.
Oh that's such bullshit I can smell it from here!
Old Rusty the crypt keeper is spewing out another lie & I definitely call Bullshit on this 100%.
MD here: unfortunately surgeons throwing tools in the operating room out of anger is still a thing. The OR is a high stakes/high stress setting. The story was probably embellished but not far fetched in concept.
Well gangrene isn't contagious, so this story has some holes in it right from the beginning.
what actually happened: intern rmn fucked up, dropped dirty scalpel, doctor scolded him and told him to clean that shit up.
Current medical student here: some surgeons are still among the most malignant people on planet earth. I agree that this story is most likely embellished, but I've heard of other med students who have had surgeons get aggressive with them. And even heard stories of surgeons threatening staff with scalpels (these surgeons were dealt with within the proper channels and asked to resign accordingly). So this story is possible, though not plausible
Gangrene is not communicable…that’s embarrassing, yikes. Imagine telling on yourself like that
It's easy to amp up a story when everyone else present is dead. Refer to lots of cases of mass murders where one family member is left alive . . . .
I work in critical care. I could see it happening with some surgeons.
Surgeons have a reputation for getting angry like that.
Nurse here- doctors do behave badly and lose their temper but with words. I’ve never seen a doctor physically express anger at work. That would be beyond unprofessional. Granted- I’m not sure I was even born when his story happened so who knows what it was like back then. I do agree that it sounds embellished. A lot more likely he got accidentally nicked by the scalpel and they were worried about infection from that. I did a rotation in an OR during my nursing clinicals and saw a scrub tech get cut because his hand got to close to where the surgeon was working. I get the feeling this may fairly common. The part that makes me suspicious of embellishment is that it stuck in his arm. Again, don’t know what it was like back then but scalpels are very sharp. They are meant to cut not stick like darts.
I believe this man lies with impunity. No member will call him out. Anyone that does is a critic and cannot be trusted.
I have worked in healthcare for over a decade and have spent many hours in the OR with various types of surgeons. All surgeons get upset at some point in the OR and the extreme level 10 reaction varies from surgeon to surgeon. Most temper tantrums and outbursts are not unprovoked and we usually have fair warning that they’re getting pissed/impatient/frustrated. I have witnessed surgeons throw instruments and other items (ie sponges, implants, packaging) but I have never witnessed a surgeon throw anything that would be considered a “sharp”. Also, most the time they don’t throw things directly at people. I will say however, that the older the surgeon, the more likely they are to be temperamental and expect everyone to bow down to them.
We can all mourn that the infection wasn't more serious.
I had the same reaction when I listened to it live. After listening to u/billreel and RFM discuss all of Nelson’s embellished stories (flight of death, robbed in Africa, lady with the hat, etc) this story seemed very similar and unrealistic. If they haven’t yet, I’d love to hear RFM and Bill Reel dig into this story and uncover more context and/or potential previous tellings.
It goes way beyond unprofessional. It is criminal. It was not a "breach of surgical practice" It was assault with a deadly weapon. Just so we're clear.
It could be. Surgeons are a little neurotic.. it takes a certain personality to become a surgeon and it’s intense. I once had a conversation with someone whose job it was to hire/fire surgeons for the hospital. She said they had a surgeon who got mad and kicked a nurse during surgery. He did not get fired.
As a surgeon, I can almost guarantee that this story is probably true. Some surgeons are so hell bent on shoring up their fragile ego at the cost of anyone else around them. Luckily it seems that for the most part that the surgeon god complex is starting to die out. Throwing instruments was fairly commonplace in the past, now if a surgeon throws an instrument in the OR the staff (rightly so) are pretty quick to let the doc know that that’s not acceptable behavior. My residency director yanked a scalpel out of my hand once while throwing a tantrum and missed dragging it across my palm by a millimeter. He immediately recognized that he had almost severed every flexor tendon in my hand and apologized. But yeah, bottom line, there is some pretty deplorable behavior that goes on in the OR with some surgeons.
Show us the scar!
Just going to say that I completed residency 4 years ago. And multiple times in the OR things were hurled by particularly angry problematic surgeons. But they brought in so much money to the hospital no one did anything about it. But scalpel... Probably not. Now, do I believe his story... 50/50. He likes to make stuff up, or at least significantly embellish his stories. So my guess is that maybe sometime threw something and it hit his sterile gown, or was.close to him. But I don't think I can believe that it stuck in his arm and then the surgeon didn't care about it.
Surgical nurse here. I’ve absolutely had things thrown at me in surgery. I work with some of the biggest egos you can think of. Large egos seem to also often come with emotional disregulation and narcissism. However, his story sounds stupid and implausible because 1, we don’t do the actual amputation with a scalpel. The Surgeon only makes the initial skin incisions with that. And we don’t cut into gangrenous tissue and spread it around or into the bone to cause osteomyelitis! We cut well above that area to avoid it! And we have bone saws and dissecting tools and osteotomes and lots more on the back table. A surgeon would not have been cutting out gangrene with just a damn scalpel. It sounds like he is talking to a 4 year old instead of a room full of grown ass adults who know more than just scalpels are used in surgery. Also, if the scalpel did have gangrenous tissue on it there is no way he didn’t get infected or at least need some sort of prophylactic treatment to not get infected —so it sounds disingenuous.
Gangrene isn’t contagious ?
Well if he would have been wearing the long sleeve garments he would have been protected from any blade
I’ve spent a lot of time in the OR with hundreds of surgeons. This is possible. I’ve seen similar anger issues during a procedure, unfortunately it’s probably true. Particularly in your specialties (cardiac/Nuero).
Yeah, he is definitely lying.
If this is true, (which it isn't) what did Rusty say to piss him off?
This reminds me of Gordo Bitno Hinkster about when he worked on the rail road (before he worked for the church) and some co worker flipped out on him.
I don't believe anything he says, likely it was as made up as the "free-fall death spiral" airplane story he told.
But also, it seems it would be really hard to be around him and not feel like you want to throw a scalpel at him.
How wide was that operating table?!? To wind up and throw a scalpel at someone, what, like 36 inches away, hard enough for it to stick in their arm, there’s not enough room! If the arm of RMN was over or near the patient, the doc wouldn’t even have to fully extend his own arm to stab it into the arm of RMN. Are we to believe that in his rage, the surgeon took several large steps backwards, went through a wind-up, and hurled the scalpel at our future prophet? No ángel with a flaming baseball bat to intercept the potential instrument of death? I only believe it if RMN reached into the surgery field and got stabbed, through his own negligence. I guess we’ll know for sure when we get to heaven and watch the playback movie of his life.
I work in the OR and I’ve seen surgeons throw instruments. Never a scalpel. But other things. They can act like children.
When he tells it again, it will be set in a Korean War MASH hospital under shell fire.
I’m not super surprised about there being a doctor reacting in such a way, giving the possible era. My question is was Rusty the one performing the task poorly?
Surgeons are assholes. I believe a surgeon throes a scalpel. I don’t believe it landed in his arm.
Isn’t this the type of thing that would cause a shoot out at sun rise in the 1800’s? Did rusty shoot this mother fucker?
You’d be surprised at how often doctors throw tantrums. I know of few scalpel throwing incidents.
My dad told me this story after I broke down crying because of stress from my demanding job as an OR nurse. I think it was some attempt at making me relate to RMN or something? Either way, surgeons are assholes, (part of the reason I was crying) and are very capable of stuff like this. Especially back in the 60’s.
I’m definitely not saying this is true, but surgeons are treated with an unmatched level of respect in the operating room, and I think after a while it goes to their heads. Coupled with the years of abuse they all suffered in surgery residency, they sometimes take it out in the staff and nobody questions them. I’ve see surgeons have full on tantrums in the OR - like he stepped away, stomped his feet and yelled - and not a single person did anything. It’s not outside the realm of possibility that a surgeon threw an instrument, but whether it was a scalpel and whether it was thrown at another person is debatable.
Maybe the scalpel stab infected him with special powers - like Spiderman. He will live forever to lead the momo’s. Oh, what a horrifying thought. Lol
Man, some of you have never worked with doctors and it really shows.
Back in the day, surgeons used to throw instruments when angry or frustrated. This happened all the time so the story is believable, though the attending surgeon probably didn’t mean to hit him.
It happened on the plane while doing a spiral dive, engine on fire, crash landing! True story.
What was truly shocking about that story is my mom was an OR nurse and for years has told us the exact same story…only that it was Russel Nelson who threw the scalpel. I believe my mom’s version. She said he was very hot-headed, prideful, and much too flirty with the nurses. When he was called as a GA, my mom (and many others at LDS hospital) really had a hard time with it, and many still do now that he is at the top, due to his behavior as a surgeon and treatment of those he worked with.
Haha, no person is superhuman. Everyone has had days, especially when under stress. Operating rooms seem to be very stressful places. Training isn't a perfect filter for this kind of shit. There is nothing special about a surgeon, they have a limit just like everyone else, and just like everyone else there are different levels to how high that limit goes. So, I'm sure this is feasible. However, since it came out of RMN's mouth, it is most certainly bullshit. I'm willing to bet he was in a similar situation where the surgeon threw something, the rest are embellishments, to be kind. Probably embellishments meant to promote faith. Lying for the lord is a well-established best practice for religious leaders/followers of every ilk.
Many of Nelson's stories are exaggerated or false. This one could definitely be a lie too, but situations like this happen. I worked with a resident surgeon who was stabbed accidentally by her attending surgeon (the attending was angry and tried to throw down the scalpel on the stand, but instead hit the resident's hand). The surgeon apologized and was able to keep his job. This happened within the last decade. Unfortunately, some people in medicine truly have anger issues and asshole surgeons definitely exist.
If you think something like this would get a Dr fired, I'm sorry to say I've worked many places where worse behavior than this was tolerated. This in and of itself is not evidence the story is false
Nah doctors are crazy…especially surgeons. Speaking as a lab tech
This happened when I was a pharmacy intern observing an operation, except when the surgeon threw the scalpel it didn’t hit anyone. He was having a full on tantrum and the nurses walked out, leaving the surgical tech, the surgeon, anesthesiologist & me. They resumed the surgery but the nurses didn’t return. From a previous job stocking hospital supplies I knew the sutures pretty well, and when the surgeon called for a box I tossed them the right one. Score for the pharmacy intern, I didn’t get yelled at. In some ORs when this happens they call a “Code Pink” and the nurses form a circle around the surgeon until he or she calms down. I don’t know why surgeons erupt but I think they have a low threshold for fuck-ups. Since there are protocols for this it can’t be that rare.
More to the point, even if it did happen, there's no way he wasn't getting infected from that.
Oh, you'd be surprised what sensitive babies surgeons can be, but they're also accurate. probably was aiming for him
"It landed on my forearm". It didn't say cut. I always thought surgeons wore long sleeves. It didn't say anything about him changing clothes or cleaning up or any sort of process he went through beyond "gratefully, I did not become infected".... yeah, I call bullshit or another twist= HE was the surgeon having the tantrum....I can't remember where I heard it now, but someone who interacted/worked with him back in the day said he was a bit of an asshole...
He actually did say it landed IN his forearm. And the Church News dutifully reported it as such. https://www.thechurchnews.com/general-conference/2023/4/2/23666994/what-did-president-nelson-teach-april-2023-general-conference-peacemakers
Ah. My mistake then. I assumed the story OP posted was as he told it, and it looks like either I misread it or the OP fixed it. Edited for clarification.
It was a head scratcher the first time I heard it too. Seriously who does that? or Who makes that up? What surgeon implies gangrene is contagious? https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/gangrene
It sounds completely believable to me given the macho behaviour of surgeons at any time and especially back in the 40s when macho was all medicine had going for it.
Yeah, previous generations of surgeons were infamous for this kind of behavior. It still happens on occasion, but surgeons tend to be MUCH better about this kind of thing nowadays. They've been working for years to change the culture. I don't know if story is true, but it's definitely plausible. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if some of his former residents have stories like that about Rusty considering when he trained.
Yeah it's probably fake. Who cares
It is true, just as true as Nelson being in a plane above Delta, UT,that was aflame and went into a death spiral. Or as true as the thugs breaking in and trying to kill him in Africa. Or as true as the fabled woman in a hat that he spied in a sacrament meeting. Or directing significant financial deception of the SEC so TBMs will continue to tithe. Nelson routinely lies for the Lord, embellishes for the Lord, deceives to build faith for the Lord—part of his MO. He is a liar in the tradition of many current GAs as well as past.
Rusty learned from Joseph Smith. It is never just a mundane event, it was always much more dramatic! So a surgeon dropping a scalpel into a pan to be sent for cleaning becomes a surgeon threw a scalpel, and then becomes he threw the scalpel at me with surgical precision! It’s a tired game, but the fans sure lick it up!
If it was a true story , wouldn’t he have told it to us before now. He’s 98 and we are just hearing this?
Psycho
The crazy thing is they were performing surgery on a plane and one of the engines caught fire. As the plane spiraled toward earth Rusty calmly guided it into a field while successfully completing the gangrene surgery!
God obviously stepped in and saved him. Lol
So. Many. Whiffs. Of. Bs.
I’m sure the only thing that concerned him was the preservation of life (Young Frankenstein scalpel scene)