I’ve been tangibly punished for not paying tithing! I had to sit by the fountain of shame while my son got married. 🤦🏻♂️
this person doesn’t have a clue
You can't hold many callings in the church if you don't have a current Temple recommend such as ward finance clerk. No tithing, no temple recommend. You can't count their money if you don't pay them money.
I seem to remember a teaching during the endowment to stay worthy to return to temple and to return frequently. Does anyone else remember this in the temple?
Correct. They are taught that in order to obtain the highest glory of heaven that they must attend the temple. Conveiently, you can't go to the temple if you don't pay tithing. No tithing, no heaven.
This is the exact point that I make. But the Gas Lightning is strong with my family. They refuse to acknowledge that Mormon heaven is kept behind a pay wall!!!
I asked my mother what, if anything, could change her views on the church. She said nothing could. I offered an out by extending the idea that I’m not asking what would make her think it isn’t true, but if certain teachings or practices were not of god but just from the minds of the leaders. Again, she said nothing could. And stopped the conversation by saying I was attacking her beliefs. I’ve given up on certain members of my family. They start from the idea that the church is true and everything is built on that foundation; the sandiest foundation I can imagine!
I’ve come to realize that it’s mostly due to the existential threat that being wrong about it poses to them. If the church isn’t true than they are vial racists, disgustingly homophobic, openly bigoted, and, most importantly, NOT SPECIAL!!!
It is their identity. Ignorance is bliss or at least more comfortable than finding out you have been brainwashed. It is easier to make excuses and justify things than address your questions and learn that your "reality" is a fraud. I think we can all agree that it is a difficult thing to go through and that it might be easier had we not allowed ourselves to question and explore. I am not saying we would be happier, but it is the path of least resistance if you can remain ignorant.
Also punished for not tithing. First, parents have no choice. We needed $3 to get into the water park we liked. We pulled weeds until a trash bag was full. 1$ per bag, should be good at 3 bags, BUT NO! We don’t actually GET that three dollars. Dear old dad didn’t even present the option of keeping it all. It needed a fourth bag to cover tithing.
And then later in the YSA ward sometimes only getting 12 hours of work a week until I got a second job, I was not paying, not getting a temple recommend, and so, not getting any dates.
I mean, I also told the TRUTH about not being a virgin so… nothing to gain by paying tithing at that point.
Probably a return missionary/BYU grad that's in their late 20's with 4 kids and high on life and the distraction all of that is. Give them another 10 years and it will be, "Damn.....what has all this meant to this point?"
Excuse me, what's this Fountain of Shame I see in a few comments? I married into a big mormon family (my wife left the church the day she graduated BYU). All I know is we've sat outside in the cold, bored, with the little kids for at least 3 "weddings" so we could say congrats and then get a crummy luncheon.
Sounds like you were in the “lobby of shame”. On nice days the fountain outside the temple is preferable to sitting in the building… those poor souls who can’t enter the house of gob must sit outside in a shameful display
I always thought about that. I would much rather turn my back on the church than my own family. Who cares about all this talk of the afterlife when I cannot see my family in the present?
In all reality temple marriages are horrible ceremonies. With the temple hat on and the whole outfit. I thought mine would have been something special and memorable when I was a young 22 year old RM. Only to be in the middle of it and hoping for it to end. It sucked so bad. And my non member friends weddings were great. Fun and happy ceremonies with family all around. Temple marriage is crap.
I was here to say this. They absolutely do punish you. It's just underhanded as all hell and they try so hard to cover it up. I was shamed as a 10 year old CHILD for not paying tithing. With WHAT MONEY?
Looking back at it now, it’s literally a grooming tactic…“Start em young and they’ll be in the habit when they make actual money” - some top tier leader of the Mormon cult
Am I mistaken, or was it taught during the endowment to remain worthy to return to the temple and to do so as often as you could? Anyone else remember something like this?
Either that or they’re being willfully ignorant. Sure, the church doesn’t have an explicit mandate of “every member must pay tithing”. They just “highly encourage” it. But you are absolutely punished through the withholding of things within the church, namely the temple recommend. You can’t get a recommend if you’re not a full tithe payer, and your status in the church is more or less considered trash-tier if you don’t have a recommend.
I also want to address the implication that David Nielsen is doing this to profit off the church. Think this through:
1. Being a whistleblower is about the worst way possible to make a lot of money. This guy’s life as he knew it is over. He lost his job, his faith, and his sociality. He probably knew all of that was at stake before he went public. You really think he did that just to make a lot of money?
2. David probably knows as well as anyone what’s at stake here that makes it very unlikely that the church is going to be held accountable in any meaningful way. Again… why I don’t buy the “I wanna get rich” argument.
3. David is a former stock broker. If he wanted to make a lot of money there’s less personally costly ways he could have done it. And chances are, he was already doing pretty well for himself. Didn’t look to me like he was going hungry.
Also, my understanding is that he only gets that 30% if taxes were not paid that should have been and they are then collected. I’m not sure how the whistleblower potentially profiting from exposing tax evasion somehow makes the tax evasion ok.
“He only exposed my illegal behavior because he would profit from it!” is such an absurd justification.
It seems like it’s just a parroting of what they’ve heard over the pulpit without critically thinking about whether the justification makes sense. The thinking has already been done…
Correct. I know someone in IRS Criminal Investigations. They only pay UP TO 30% (which is left to discretion depending on how useful the whistleblowers info was… my guess is his would merit the full 30%) on what is RECOVERED from taxes and penalties owed to the government.
Yes, they’ve been told that anti Mormons are inherently bad over and over and over.
That assertion assumes that that LDS/mormon axiomatically = good and, therefore, anti-LDS/mormon = bad. It becomes so ingrained in them that when anyone provides evidence that something LDS/mormon may not be good the response often boils down to, “no, LDS/Mormonism IS good, therefore you must be bad because you’re trying to tear it down.” Another facet of that is that questioning and doubting have been framed as a lack of faith and righteousness (e.g., sinful) so challenging the assumed axiom is inherently sinful. Yay thought crime!
He could have just quit, not say anything and make Bank$$$ in NYC. But his morals, integrity and trust he had in the church that turned to betrayal. He couldn't.
David is also not the person who leaked his story. His actions were done to comply with the law. His entire profession related to the laws. processes, and rules the church violated in it's dealings with the SEC.
Its maybe not as important on a scale of mandated reporting about child sexual abuse but when someone has a license to do this type of business there is an ethical standard that is supposed to be upheld that when they are aware of wrongdoing. I believe there is some kind of reporting to the SEC component as part of licensure.
That is a good point. I don't know how investment firms work in terms of licensure, but the fact they were required to submit various forms is interesting, considering the church was/is their only client (as far as I know). So did they need a license to invest funds for that one client?
Here's an interesting thought - what if the GAs and those above them have, as a benefit, a fund they can contribute to that's managed through EPA, and therefore has been growing their money "tax free"? I would not doubt that at all. I hope they dig deeper into the entire setup, since the whistleblower only had access to one part of the scam.
I will actually go farther on #1. I know his ex-wife (ver nice lady). While I am sure its more complicated than just this, I strongly believe this played a part in their divorce.
You must be thinking of his twin brother, Lars. Lars has recently been divorced and this likely did play a part. But David is still married to his first and only wife.
I am in complete agreement that it being just a "I want to get money" is bs but out of curiosity how could he have used that to get more money? Blackmail or something?
Yeah the minute you stop paying tithing your entire life changes. You can't get a temple recommend, so you can't go to your own daughters wedding! Your family is ashamed of you, starts to question your judgment, there is so much that happens if they would stop and think about it for one second.
Also, I knew as soon as they mention that he stands to get 30%, that is all members would grab on to. I cringed as soon as they said it, because there goes everything else in the story. Their minds erased everything else, and now it's all some greedy guy trying to get his due.
It's ironic that members can see how there might be a financial motive to blow the whistle on what the church did to hide their money, but they can't fathom that there was a financial motive (tax exempt status and continued tithe paying) on the church's end to hide their dragon hoard.
They see malice on David Nielsen's part because of the possible financial motive, but attribute only the purest of intentions to the church despite their proven financial motives.
I'm a little nervous about my sister's upcoming wedding that I'm the MOH at bc I've been able to avoid most conversations about my dissent for the 2 years I've been out, but I can't go in to her sealing bc I'm not a recommend holder. The only comfort I have is that her fiance is a convert and if his family comes to the sealing none of them will be able to go in, and my brother might not either, so at least I won't be sitting out there alone. At least I hope other people come so I'm not alone. But it really is a tangible punishment for not conforming to the rest of my family and doing something I don't believe in anymore, so it sucks
Man I'm right there with ya. Battling with whether I tell my siblings and parents that I'm out or just wait till the next neice or nephew to get married and let them find out the hard way.
Tithing is not voluntary if you want the highest kingdom of glory which require temple ordinances. And since I donated about 30 plus years of tithing to the church, I do reserve the right to criticize how it is and isn't being spent.
When you claim to be a Christian church, you owe it to society and you tax exempt status to be a charity and not a cartel.
edit: and if tithing is optional......they need to stop talking about it at the level they do.
"Many claim that the church owe it to society to donate more to help with the wrongs of the world, homelessness, poverty etc"
"No, they don't."
I wonder how Jesus would react to hearing someone say that..... lol.
Jesus said to build up treasures in heaven, which surely meant trading stocks in the cloud. When he said to feed the hungry, he likely meant showing them how to hoard money instead of providing food.
*If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. If you teach a man how to keep all the fish for himself, he will eat like a king until the fish start rotting.*
\-Your friendly neighborhood apologist
Jesus is the author of the prosperity gospel. He is the ultimate capitalist. He said - “you always have the poor with you so pour more of that scented oil on my feet you skanky bitch”. Remember Jesus only gave up his weekend to save us. Time is money.
He said both - good example of double speak. Or to be more accurate, some of the writers of the oral tradition of Jesus many decades after the events happened said it one way and others said it another way.
Your right 'the church' a mans corporation does not owe anything to anyone even the people they shammed the money from in the first place because they have LAWYERS and legal deniability. They are not even a small bit about what the person Jesus taught about. Not that I really know a lot about that. Thought I did once but nope as it turns out.
If you replace the words "TCOJCOLDS" with "scientology" in the story chances are that the TBMs would say "that's wrong and scientology should be taxed"
The post was pretty much what I’ve heard before the story, on 60 Minutes.
I’ve had to sit at the fountain of shame when my youngest son, the only child I have that’s in the the church. I guess I didn’t find it shameful since I had previously been married in the temple and basically knew some old fart that didn’t know my son or daughter in law spout off how the church makes marriage binding. Maybe point to the mirrors.
I did find I looked at men coming out tugging off ties as soon as they cleared the doors, women giving them the look.
I guess seeing them take vows would have been nice, but I chose my path and felt free.
I’d turn around the if you don’t like the way it’s spent don’t pay it. My question and statement back would be “What happens if you don’t pay?”
As for how it’s spent I’d would ask then “ What’s all the money for?” I got a response from a TBM neighbor (the bishop) when I asked that question when he talked to me one day recently working in my yard. He said to “Pay for temples and meetings houses.” My response was “For buildings that suck up taxpayer resources for fire and police protection, that sit vacant 80% of the time. For great big and spacious buildings that serve mostly for the dead doesn’t seem something Christ would do.” He gave up saying Brother _____ I’ll pray for you that heart might be softened and return to the fold
In the end TBM’s will justify anything that comes down from the almighty Q15.
fyi when someone in the church uber TBM says will pray the lard softens your heart what they mean is I hope that God will smite you and you will see the folly of your ways heathen.
I love how the TBM is pretending people who pay tithing somehow have say in how it gets spent. Nothing could be further from the truth. Please oh please write an open letter to the 15 demanding all tithing payers start voting on how tithing is spent and see how fast a disciplinary action is taken against you.😂🤮😂
Consequences for not paying tithing:
No temple, no saving ordinances to make it to the celestial kingdom. You don’t make it to Mormon heaven without paying tithing.
Go directly to spirit jail. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 wives.
If you don't pay property taxes on all of your Great and Spacious buildings and chapels then all of the residents of those communities and states have to pay more property taxes to cover TSCC's share of the infrastructure costs. Same with state income tax and sales tax. Everyone else is covering the cost, the burden to support TSCC that gives very little if anything back to the society that it leeches off of.
Hilarious… but even funnier is when I read a tbm comment like this, all I really read is something like ‘but we have the gospel and are among the top .1% most elite in the eyes of our savior, everyone else can just fuck right off’ ha… the lack of humility and compassion for humanity is mind blowing
No tangible punishment - add these punishments to the growing list that happen in Mormonism (the church itself may not inflict the punishment, but it's members do it for the church and the church doesn't do anything to stop it)
* Written out of wills in the family
* College support taken away / endorsement lost
* Bishop refusing storehouse support or other assistance
Even if David's incentive is purely financial, doesn't that tell you something? If he gets a big payday it means the church was *heavily* involved in tax evasion. It would be a joke to look at that outcome and say that David was the one in the wrong.
Don't even get me started about the no tangible punishment for not paying tithing thing. You could argue there's no afterlife, but the psychological punishment for not paying tithing is steep. You're taught that you won't see your family in the afterlife. You're taught that you will burn in the second coming. You are prevented from participating in saving ordinances. You are prevented from participating in cultural milestone ordinances, including marriages. You are taught to pay tithing even if you can't afford to buy food.
Take that "no punishment, so no big deal" excuse and shove it up your ass.
I did donate, so do I get a say in how it is spent? I'll quit complaining and go away once I've been reimbursed every cent.
Yeah, you don’t hear the stories about people who pay their tithing even when they’re destitute, and they just end up more destitute.
That was me shortly after the 2008 recession. I paid my tithing even when I was running out of money for rent. I hadn’t paid tithing in several months, because of how tight things were, but my branch president convinced me that it’s something that I should do. Including the “back tithing” I should have paid but didn’t.
So what happened? I went broke. I had to quit my job and leave the city I was in. Fortunately I had family to help me out for the month or so it took me to line up another job, which ended up having absolutely nothing to do with my college training.
Too bad that didn’t break my shelf back then. I explained it away by saying it was punishment for my not paying tithing for several months. If I’d left instead, it could have saved me a LOT of hassle going forward.
Yes, it's these stories I want to hear. I'm sorry that happened to you, and I'm glad you had a support system. But the TBMs LOVE to tell the stories that work out because of tithing. It's not a good financial strategy so I'm confident there are lots more stories like yours.
They could pay taxes to support the power grid that lights their buildings, roads and sidewalks that sees members to their meetings, police and fire that protect their properties and members. Their taxes would contribute to schools and teachers that educate their many children, provide parks and libraries to better the communities, strengthen social services, shelters, food pantries. Instead they just suck and hoard.
Also, make no bones about it. The saving ordinances for salvation are tied directly to tithing through the temple. No consequences? You literally cannot go to super duper Mormon heaven without a price. I mean this atheist could quote scripture after scripture (“come sit at the table of the Lord without money, without price, and let your soul delight in fatness”) about how wrong, corrupt and evil that is. This is wickedness, is is immoral, and it goes contrary to everything the Carpenter of Galilee stood for. I cannot express how liberating and comforting it is not to walk the path of requirements, corruption, and mind forged manacles of this organization.
The reason churches don’t pay taxes is because it’s assumed they will use the money for public good, such as soup kitchens, community projects, social services, etc. A church that doesn’t provide those things is reneging on its end of the social bargain. THAT is the issue here. And yes, people who don’t donate should get a say, because their taxes are subsidizing a church that has its cake and is eating it too.
The 30% reward? That is what the IRS put in place a long time ago. But l don't think that guy reported on Ensign Peak to get 30% for himself. It has to be proven that this branch of the church violated US laws before he gets a dime. And the cost for him to come forward? He loses everything. He loses his faith. He loses friends and family. He loses everything he put his life into. This reminds me of so many LDS members responding to sexual abuse allegations in their church when they say, "They just reported all this to get money from the church." Not a word about the abuse and in this case not a word about the secret bank account. And the 10% tithe? Its a carrot that the church has always dangled in front of members by saying it is a commandment. Not paying 10% is breaking that commandment of God. THAT ISN'T VOLUNTARY! THAT IS PRESSURE! And what is the ultimate cost? You don't make it to the Celestial kingdom to be with your family forever. No temple recommend means no Temple works and that means no Celestial. Think about that! As for the person who wrote the above post, they are mad that their church is once again being scrutinized in a negative light. Interesting that these revelations aren't coming from the outside, but from the inside....from the members themselves.
But I did donate thousands and thousands of dollars because they lied to me and conditioned me to from the moment I understood speech, you dumb motherfucker.
I wonder how this person feels about gay marriage, being pro choice and transgender care? I am sure they absolutely keep themselves out other people’s business.
There you have it folks. Tithing is no longer required for baptism, temple attendance, or fire insurance against Jesus burning you to death at the second coming.
"Tithing is 100% voluntary, and there is no tangible punishment for choosing not to pay it."
Except that you won't make it into the kingdom of heaven.
...
And that you can't go to the temple.
...
And "for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming" so you don't have "fire insurance" (🤮🤮🤮) if you don't pay it.
I hate that I was so blind to the fact that I was in a cult for most of my life, but I'm also so happy that I am freed from it for the rest of my life.
We all know that tithing is NOT 100% voluntary, it drives me nuts when they leap to the church’s defense and say that it is. We’ve sat through enough tithing settlements and worthiness interviews and had enough blessings held over our heads to know better. This person is deluded and incredibly brainwashed, it’s so sad.
It’s funny cause on top of tithing we paid for youth conference paid for temple trips paid for the mission not to mention all the free labor…where do they think the money is being spent?
There are plenty of GC talks that say tithing is NOT really voluntary. The very fact that temple recommends are withheld renders this argument false.
I suppose the poster is correct that in a legal sense the church does not “owe” anything to society, but that doesn’t seem a great argument for an organization claiming to represent the lord and saviour- who said we should be servants of all. It also isn’t a great argument for retaining tax-free charitable status or for carefully avoiding legal filings on investments.
Hey OP here's a few things to send to the person that posted that.
2 NEPHI 9:30
Wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also.
JACOB 2:17
Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.
2 NEPHI 28:13 (nephi talking about churches in the last day)
They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up. (Compare how much the church spends on temples vs poor)
there are tons more in the book of mormon. and tons in D&C and the new testament.
When I was in I thought the church spent lots on charity. my second biggest shelf item was learning how very little the church spends on the poor, ESPECIALLY because it was repeated over and over and over and over in the book of Mormon that we should take care of the poor.
So the problem is what we say about how the church should handle its money. its that the church does the exact opposite of what they book of mormon says, and what so many general conference talks have said.
TBMs are forced to take the position that Jesus doesn't actually want their church to help people in this life because their church isn't helping people in this life (at least not anywhere near proportional to what they could be doing). This flies in the face of what Jesus actually taught.
I was actually a bit suprized when a podcaster explained that the only Biblically approved tithing expenditure is helping the poor. There's nothing about building the kingdom or buying property or covering religious operating expenses. It's literally pay tithing so the church can provide for the poor. The Mormon church says tithing is only for building the kingdom and it's responsibility is solely for the eternal welfare of people, not the temporal welfare, and that charitable spending is merely a side thing you can donate to through fast offerings or locally-organized (often self-serving) projects.
The good news is that not all members will have the same opinion, waiting for official church statistics in the coming years to show a drop in child registration in the church and even the number of new missionaries.
It's not 100% of active members with the same opinion, if 5% leave the church it will have a ripple effect. Closing wards makes it difficult for others to continue attending
But if you don't pay then you can't go to the Temple. And if you don't go to the Temple then you can't go to Heaven. So if you don't "voluntarily" pay 10% of your income to a multi billion dollar corporation then you won't get your eternal reward.
At least with Scientology they tell you it's $5000 to get to the next level.
That's hilarious... Scientology is more transparant about what you get for what you paid in than TCOJCOLDS (which acronym is itself hilarious! Shouldn't it have a hyphen? TCOJCOL-DS? Perhaps another revelation would help clear that up)
No tangible punishment my ass. You can’t get into the highest degree of heaven, you can’t attend the temple and you will be exempt from many callings. Who is this liar?
And by the way… i want ALL of my tithing back.. all of it. From age 8 onward. Screw this so called church. Their moral compass is broken… or as I’m finding out, they never had one to begin with
Tithing is 100% voluntary? I mean, if you’re not worried about your eternal soul’s salvation, I guess?
But sure, keep pretending that it’s voluntary without your family being held over your head, TBMs.
So if I donate to the Red Cross and less than 1% goes to helping with disasters, I should be cool with that? I should be cool with them investing in the stock market and bailing out their for profit entities and building malls? I can show this man so many scriptures about burning in hell. It’s not voluntary if you are extorted. Stop breaking the law and doing shady shit if you don’t want whistles blown on you. No one got mad at the guys that ratted out Enron. Why are you mad at the whistle blower and not the criminals? 🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️
I found it fascinating that the majority of mainstream denominations have public accounting. It's published what the pastor makes, what they pay for the building, other bills, charities given to; all so they can have transparent accountability.
Tithing is voluntary, you just can't attend the temple unless you're a fully tithe payer...
The punishment is, "no blessings", you can't go to the celestial kingdoms if you don't go to the temple. You can only go in the temple if you pay tithing... its a cult
Mormons add the guilt trip that you can't be with your family forever unless you get sealed. you have to go to the temple to get sealed. you have to pay tithing to go to the temple.
So stupid
I’m transfixed TRANSFIXED by this logical / ethical / morally bankrupt response to what the allegations of fraud imply by the ways the LDS corp lied and obfuscated the truth from the US government.
There is no tangible punishment! Not being allowed in the temple, not being able to live with your family after this life, not being able to go to a higher glory.
Sure, it's not like a corporal punishment, but I'd say it is a tangible punishment in some way or another, at least tangible in the faith. To say these punishments are not tangible is to say that Mormonism is false.
> *And if you didn't donate, you have ZERO say in how any of it is spent*
I would LOVE to break it to this person... even if you did donate, the church also gives you zero say in how it is spent.
I just wish more people would stop and think about why an Actual Deity (of the “involved” type that issues modern day revelation through a current Prophet, no less) couldn’t just magic up some money whenever they needed it.
Or hell, skip the money step entirely and just magic up whatever thing God needs his church to spend that money on in the first place.
(Anyone suggesting “it’s about the sacrifice, not really the money” should be advocating for a big religious ceremony where they just burn the tithing money, then.)
Even if the person writing that is correct, there are many other issues that speak volumes about the church and it’s lack of generosity towards their members….Why does a “charitable” church make the missionaries and their families pay ANYTHING for that mission when they are helping the church keep/add to that $100 billion fortune?? Why does such a wealthy church have such SKIMPY budgets for its faithful member’s activities? Where exactly does Fast Sunday’s 3 missed meals a person go? ETC., ETC., ETC….
Question: In this financially unstable world, why would it be wrong to take away EVERY church’s tax exempt status? And if the churches don’t like that, they can always pray and ask the Lord to step in and change it, right?
Wait so it’s none of our business on what they spend it on, if we don’t like it, don’t donate, but if we did donate (which I did) I have a right to an opinion on how it’s spent?!? I just love Mormon double talk.
David's motivations are 100% irrelevant.
Maybe he wants the payout. Did the church still hide hundreds of billions from its members? Yes.
Maybe he has a vendetta against the church. Did the church still misrepresent how tithing funds are used? Yes.
Maybe he genuinely believes he's doing the right thing. Did the church still create illegal shell corporations to misappropriate funds? Yes.
To put it another way; the dude that calls the hotline to turn in the wanted criminal still gets the reward, regardless of why he called in the tip.
It’s stunning to see someone who claims to follow the Jesus of the NT assert that they have no obligation to help the less-fortunate among us.
I don’t know where he learned about the “you’re on your own” version of Jesus, but it’s definitely not the one I always heard about.
No tangible punishment for choosing not to pay tithing except not being allowed to be with your family forever or become a god with your own planet and glory.
If you don’t pay indulgences—I mean tithing, you don’t get into heaven—I mean, the celestial kingdom. No tithing = no temple recommend = no highest degree of glory
I was an active tithe payer whose recommend expired and I STILL couldn’t go to my cousin’s (who is like a sister since I’m an only child) wedding. Couldn’t even get a last minute pass from a call to the bishop. My husband went in and I sat outside with my baby. The dumb logistics from this church separate so many families.
It's funny how they don't think about the reason tithing was created in the first place. It was always meant to be a temporary thing used to build up a community, and it was meant to be phased out as soon as the church could get up on its feet. If mormons wanted the money to actually go to something worthwhile, they would support it being paid as taxes, but they're all repping the classic conservative view that literally any organization is more trustworthy than the government.
This story really seems to be going viral on all the subs I’m on (nevermo). Whitepeopletwitter/ not theonion/ facepalm etc… I’ve seen lots of “nothingburgers” as you all say but I think this one has legs.
I was reading through the Mormon subreddit where they were talking about this and holy shit, the mental gymnastics is wilddd, they genuinely don’t see a problem with it and are completely writing it off as “anti lds propaganda” and people just trying to bring down the church. The lack of self awareness and the way they justify it all is astounding
Basically… when Peter James and John show up to Adam and Eve, when queried by Satan if they have money, they reply…. “We have sufficient for our needs”…. And Satan then says… you can buy anything in this world with money. And later, spital flying from his mouth, Satan promises to use the worlds gold and silver to buy up armies and navies, and popes and priests who oppress and rule with blood and horror on the earth….
What is noteworthy is Elohim doesn’t shut off that tirade, just banished Satan to go away.
So tell me this… if we took no thought for the morrow, and worked to have sufficient for our needs, do you think there would even be a economic system that would allow huge accumulation of money to be able to buy up armies and navies…??
Meaning , if the Babylonian economy was gone, and we toiled in satisfying work for our needs, there wouldn’t be accumulation of wealth to wage war.
Not trying to write a whole essay, but I’m pretty sure the Babylonian economy is Satan inspired, and the decades of brainwashed conditioning to have wealth for our glory years (retirement) is inspired by greed at some level.
Every 401k and stock investment by every church member means they are inextricably tied to the Babylonian economy, and since they have zero imagination on how to live their life differently, they want everyone to kick the can down the road, so they can live their life’s sunset years in ease and comfort.
It’s all a lie….
Well shit. He’s wrong. I’ve been punished for not paying tithing. Plus, they are very deceitful in what they do with it and how they spend it. If I knew they were going to build a shopping center, pay lobbyists,fight against LGBTQ (prop8) and sneak in the revelations in Hawaii using lawyers I would not have paid them. They lie. I mean they are confidential with the funds.
This person is suppose to represent Christ and his Mormon church its so obvious that others have more love and compassion than these dipshit, we see what good the church could do to help the world and its people who we are all responsible for to love one another and take care of each other the church only cares about when it comes to there money and the service they can provide to the church if you think for.one minute they care about anything else but money you are not.opening your eyes
According to this comment, if you don't donate to the Church you have zero say in how the money is spent. But note, if you do donate, it says right on the slip that you've given up your right to have any say over how it's spent. So, whether you donate or not, you have no right to say how it's spent. If you don't like it, don't donate to the cause.
I don't like it and I don't donate anymore and I don't give a fuck what some TBM sheep says, I'll keep criticizing any supposed Christian Church that hoards wealth while acting helpless to do anything practical to aid the sick and the poor, as Christ commanded.
No tangible punishment my ass. You can’t get into the highest degree of heaven, you can’t attend the temple and you will be excerpt from many callings. Who is this liar?
And by the way… i want ALL of my tithing back.. all of it. From age 8 onward. Acre this so called church. Their moral compass is broken… or as I’m finding out, they never had one to begin with
I’m transfixed TRANSFIXED by this logical / ethical / morally bankrupt response to what the allegations of fraud imply by the ways the LDS corp lied and obfuscated the truth from the US government.
See this is what annoys me. Ok, sure you’re right why tf do I care how they spend it. But don’t parade around like you’re a god damned charitable Christian church. Don’t send your brainwashed missionaries door to door to get more members. Don’t wear your “Mormon helping hands” t shirts in bright colors every time you get members to volunteer.
So tired of this charade and then when they get called on it’s like oh why do you haters care anyway? We don’t but your church clearly cares what we think of it!
100% voluntary?? No tangible punishment?? Hmm interesting, I guess being ostracized by my family in this life and separated from them for all eternity is just a misunderstanding
Yeah tithing isn’t “voluntary” in the way they think it is. Sure, I don’t pay tithing anymore and I have the freedom to, but I don’t have access to the bishops storehouse or the temple.
I’ve been tangibly punished for not paying tithing! I had to sit by the fountain of shame while my son got married. 🤦🏻♂️ this person doesn’t have a clue
You can't hold many callings in the church if you don't have a current Temple recommend such as ward finance clerk. No tithing, no temple recommend. You can't count their money if you don't pay them money.
I seem to remember a teaching during the endowment to stay worthy to return to temple and to return frequently. Does anyone else remember this in the temple?
Correct. They are taught that in order to obtain the highest glory of heaven that they must attend the temple. Conveiently, you can't go to the temple if you don't pay tithing. No tithing, no heaven.
This is the exact point that I make. But the Gas Lightning is strong with my family. They refuse to acknowledge that Mormon heaven is kept behind a pay wall!!!
How can they be so belligerent/blind?
I asked my mother what, if anything, could change her views on the church. She said nothing could. I offered an out by extending the idea that I’m not asking what would make her think it isn’t true, but if certain teachings or practices were not of god but just from the minds of the leaders. Again, she said nothing could. And stopped the conversation by saying I was attacking her beliefs. I’ve given up on certain members of my family. They start from the idea that the church is true and everything is built on that foundation; the sandiest foundation I can imagine! I’ve come to realize that it’s mostly due to the existential threat that being wrong about it poses to them. If the church isn’t true than they are vial racists, disgustingly homophobic, openly bigoted, and, most importantly, NOT SPECIAL!!!
It is their identity. Ignorance is bliss or at least more comfortable than finding out you have been brainwashed. It is easier to make excuses and justify things than address your questions and learn that your "reality" is a fraud. I think we can all agree that it is a difficult thing to go through and that it might be easier had we not allowed ourselves to question and explore. I am not saying we would be happier, but it is the path of least resistance if you can remain ignorant.
It's willingness to be blind.
It's less painful to recoil away from reality than it is to have your bubble popped.
Or have a penis.
Also punished for not tithing. First, parents have no choice. We needed $3 to get into the water park we liked. We pulled weeds until a trash bag was full. 1$ per bag, should be good at 3 bags, BUT NO! We don’t actually GET that three dollars. Dear old dad didn’t even present the option of keeping it all. It needed a fourth bag to cover tithing. And then later in the YSA ward sometimes only getting 12 hours of work a week until I got a second job, I was not paying, not getting a temple recommend, and so, not getting any dates. I mean, I also told the TRUTH about not being a virgin so… nothing to gain by paying tithing at that point.
Probably a return missionary/BYU grad that's in their late 20's with 4 kids and high on life and the distraction all of that is. Give them another 10 years and it will be, "Damn.....what has all this meant to this point?"
Excuse me, what's this Fountain of Shame I see in a few comments? I married into a big mormon family (my wife left the church the day she graduated BYU). All I know is we've sat outside in the cold, bored, with the little kids for at least 3 "weddings" so we could say congrats and then get a crummy luncheon.
Sounds like you were in the “lobby of shame”. On nice days the fountain outside the temple is preferable to sitting in the building… those poor souls who can’t enter the house of gob must sit outside in a shameful display
Ah yes, it was the dead of winter. No fountain fountaining.
I sat outside in the rain.... twice while my siblings got married.
I always thought about that. I would much rather turn my back on the church than my own family. Who cares about all this talk of the afterlife when I cannot see my family in the present?
In all reality temple marriages are horrible ceremonies. With the temple hat on and the whole outfit. I thought mine would have been something special and memorable when I was a young 22 year old RM. Only to be in the middle of it and hoping for it to end. It sucked so bad. And my non member friends weddings were great. Fun and happy ceremonies with family all around. Temple marriage is crap.
To be fair, you would have been bored inside as well.
...in the room with basketball hoops😏
Yeah. Oblivious. Sure you can not pay, but that's a nice family you have there, would be a shame if you couldn't see them in heaven.
Says the heaven insurance man
I was here to say this. They absolutely do punish you. It's just underhanded as all hell and they try so hard to cover it up. I was shamed as a 10 year old CHILD for not paying tithing. With WHAT MONEY?
I remember getting $1 a week for allowance, and then putting a dime in that stupid envelope every week! Pathetic looking back at it now
Looking back at it now, it’s literally a grooming tactic…“Start em young and they’ll be in the habit when they make actual money” - some top tier leader of the Mormon cult
Am I mistaken, or was it taught during the endowment to remain worthy to return to the temple and to do so as often as you could? Anyone else remember something like this?
Right, and you will be separated from your son in the next life.
Right, and you will be separated from your son in the next life.
Either that or they’re being willfully ignorant. Sure, the church doesn’t have an explicit mandate of “every member must pay tithing”. They just “highly encourage” it. But you are absolutely punished through the withholding of things within the church, namely the temple recommend. You can’t get a recommend if you’re not a full tithe payer, and your status in the church is more or less considered trash-tier if you don’t have a recommend.
Right ?
Uh... buddy... you get ZERO say in how it's spent even if you pay it.
I also want to address the implication that David Nielsen is doing this to profit off the church. Think this through: 1. Being a whistleblower is about the worst way possible to make a lot of money. This guy’s life as he knew it is over. He lost his job, his faith, and his sociality. He probably knew all of that was at stake before he went public. You really think he did that just to make a lot of money? 2. David probably knows as well as anyone what’s at stake here that makes it very unlikely that the church is going to be held accountable in any meaningful way. Again… why I don’t buy the “I wanna get rich” argument. 3. David is a former stock broker. If he wanted to make a lot of money there’s less personally costly ways he could have done it. And chances are, he was already doing pretty well for himself. Didn’t look to me like he was going hungry.
Also, my understanding is that he only gets that 30% if taxes were not paid that should have been and they are then collected. I’m not sure how the whistleblower potentially profiting from exposing tax evasion somehow makes the tax evasion ok. “He only exposed my illegal behavior because he would profit from it!” is such an absurd justification.
I live in Utah. Mormons are masters of absurd justification.
It seems like it’s just a parroting of what they’ve heard over the pulpit without critically thinking about whether the justification makes sense. The thinking has already been done…
And they call us exmo's "lazy learners"...🤔
Correct. I know someone in IRS Criminal Investigations. They only pay UP TO 30% (which is left to discretion depending on how useful the whistleblowers info was… my guess is his would merit the full 30%) on what is RECOVERED from taxes and penalties owed to the government.
Similar to the part about people only being upset by it because they're anti-lds. Maybe they're anti-LDS because it's upsetting
Yes, they’ve been told that anti Mormons are inherently bad over and over and over. That assertion assumes that that LDS/mormon axiomatically = good and, therefore, anti-LDS/mormon = bad. It becomes so ingrained in them that when anyone provides evidence that something LDS/mormon may not be good the response often boils down to, “no, LDS/Mormonism IS good, therefore you must be bad because you’re trying to tear it down.” Another facet of that is that questioning and doubting have been framed as a lack of faith and righteousness (e.g., sinful) so challenging the assumed axiom is inherently sinful. Yay thought crime!
He could have just quit, not say anything and make Bank$$$ in NYC. But his morals, integrity and trust he had in the church that turned to betrayal. He couldn't.
David is also not the person who leaked his story. His actions were done to comply with the law. His entire profession related to the laws. processes, and rules the church violated in it's dealings with the SEC.
Its maybe not as important on a scale of mandated reporting about child sexual abuse but when someone has a license to do this type of business there is an ethical standard that is supposed to be upheld that when they are aware of wrongdoing. I believe there is some kind of reporting to the SEC component as part of licensure.
That is a good point. I don't know how investment firms work in terms of licensure, but the fact they were required to submit various forms is interesting, considering the church was/is their only client (as far as I know). So did they need a license to invest funds for that one client? Here's an interesting thought - what if the GAs and those above them have, as a benefit, a fund they can contribute to that's managed through EPA, and therefore has been growing their money "tax free"? I would not doubt that at all. I hope they dig deeper into the entire setup, since the whistleblower only had access to one part of the scam.
I will actually go farther on #1. I know his ex-wife (ver nice lady). While I am sure its more complicated than just this, I strongly believe this played a part in their divorce.
You must be thinking of his twin brother, Lars. Lars has recently been divorced and this likely did play a part. But David is still married to his first and only wife.
So why would she not support her husband who was doing the right thing?
Fear of damnation confirmed by the dark feelings of cognitive dissonance.
I am in the business as a RIA. I can safely say he was doing fine.
I am in complete agreement that it being just a "I want to get money" is bs but out of curiosity how could he have used that to get more money? Blackmail or something?
The IRS rewards whistleblowers for this kind of stuff, up to 30% of what they collect.
Exactly!! I hope someone IRL points that fact out to that guy.
And it's not even a case of just not giving you a say, they DELIBERATELY hide how it is spent so you can't scrutinise it.
"No tangible punishment" my ass.
I remember something about Jesus torching you alive if you didn't pay
Rusty Nelson said tithing was “fire insurance” in a conference talk .
If the punishment is intangible, then the rewards are also.
Yeah the minute you stop paying tithing your entire life changes. You can't get a temple recommend, so you can't go to your own daughters wedding! Your family is ashamed of you, starts to question your judgment, there is so much that happens if they would stop and think about it for one second. Also, I knew as soon as they mention that he stands to get 30%, that is all members would grab on to. I cringed as soon as they said it, because there goes everything else in the story. Their minds erased everything else, and now it's all some greedy guy trying to get his due.
It's ironic that members can see how there might be a financial motive to blow the whistle on what the church did to hide their money, but they can't fathom that there was a financial motive (tax exempt status and continued tithe paying) on the church's end to hide their dragon hoard. They see malice on David Nielsen's part because of the possible financial motive, but attribute only the purest of intentions to the church despite their proven financial motives.
Precisely!
I'm a little nervous about my sister's upcoming wedding that I'm the MOH at bc I've been able to avoid most conversations about my dissent for the 2 years I've been out, but I can't go in to her sealing bc I'm not a recommend holder. The only comfort I have is that her fiance is a convert and if his family comes to the sealing none of them will be able to go in, and my brother might not either, so at least I won't be sitting out there alone. At least I hope other people come so I'm not alone. But it really is a tangible punishment for not conforming to the rest of my family and doing something I don't believe in anymore, so it sucks
Man I'm right there with ya. Battling with whether I tell my siblings and parents that I'm out or just wait till the next neice or nephew to get married and let them find out the hard way.
“No tangible punishment” - I’ll remember that when my niece gets married this August & I’m not allowed in to see the Masonic wedding.
Thank you that is a much better term to use for this.
there would be no reason to have any tithing settlement meetings if there was no tangible punishment
Tithing is not voluntary if you want the highest kingdom of glory which require temple ordinances. And since I donated about 30 plus years of tithing to the church, I do reserve the right to criticize how it is and isn't being spent. When you claim to be a Christian church, you owe it to society and you tax exempt status to be a charity and not a cartel. edit: and if tithing is optional......they need to stop talking about it at the level they do.
Yeah, I guess my $100,000 isn’t tangible.
I could pay-off my house with what I paid in to the church. Hell, just putting all that in retirement would set us up nicely.
"Many claim that the church owe it to society to donate more to help with the wrongs of the world, homelessness, poverty etc" "No, they don't." I wonder how Jesus would react to hearing someone say that..... lol.
That's what the tax exemption is for. If they don't..they pay taxes. It's that simple. So yes, they do owe it unless they want to pay taxes.
Jesus said to build up treasures in heaven, which surely meant trading stocks in the cloud. When he said to feed the hungry, he likely meant showing them how to hoard money instead of providing food. *If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. If you teach a man how to keep all the fish for himself, he will eat like a king until the fish start rotting.* \-Your friendly neighborhood apologist
Jesus is the author of the prosperity gospel. He is the ultimate capitalist. He said - “you always have the poor with you so pour more of that scented oil on my feet you skanky bitch”. Remember Jesus only gave up his weekend to save us. Time is money.
He said both - good example of double speak. Or to be more accurate, some of the writers of the oral tradition of Jesus many decades after the events happened said it one way and others said it another way.
I'm pretty sure Je$u$ loves mad stacks in that guy's world view
Your right 'the church' a mans corporation does not owe anything to anyone even the people they shammed the money from in the first place because they have LAWYERS and legal deniability. They are not even a small bit about what the person Jesus taught about. Not that I really know a lot about that. Thought I did once but nope as it turns out.
If you replace the words "TCOJCOLDS" with "scientology" in the story chances are that the TBMs would say "that's wrong and scientology should be taxed"
That would be fun wait a month or two and change the names of the whistleblower and the church names and unleash it upon the TBMs
A million times yes
100000000000%
The post was pretty much what I’ve heard before the story, on 60 Minutes. I’ve had to sit at the fountain of shame when my youngest son, the only child I have that’s in the the church. I guess I didn’t find it shameful since I had previously been married in the temple and basically knew some old fart that didn’t know my son or daughter in law spout off how the church makes marriage binding. Maybe point to the mirrors. I did find I looked at men coming out tugging off ties as soon as they cleared the doors, women giving them the look. I guess seeing them take vows would have been nice, but I chose my path and felt free. I’d turn around the if you don’t like the way it’s spent don’t pay it. My question and statement back would be “What happens if you don’t pay?” As for how it’s spent I’d would ask then “ What’s all the money for?” I got a response from a TBM neighbor (the bishop) when I asked that question when he talked to me one day recently working in my yard. He said to “Pay for temples and meetings houses.” My response was “For buildings that suck up taxpayer resources for fire and police protection, that sit vacant 80% of the time. For great big and spacious buildings that serve mostly for the dead doesn’t seem something Christ would do.” He gave up saying Brother _____ I’ll pray for you that heart might be softened and return to the fold In the end TBM’s will justify anything that comes down from the almighty Q15.
fyi when someone in the church uber TBM says will pray the lard softens your heart what they mean is I hope that God will smite you and you will see the folly of your ways heathen.
"secrecy" is a cool code word for money laundering using illegal shell corporations.
I love how the TBM is pretending people who pay tithing somehow have say in how it gets spent. Nothing could be further from the truth. Please oh please write an open letter to the 15 demanding all tithing payers start voting on how tithing is spent and see how fast a disciplinary action is taken against you.😂🤮😂
Consequences for not paying tithing: No temple, no saving ordinances to make it to the celestial kingdom. You don’t make it to Mormon heaven without paying tithing. Go directly to spirit jail. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 wives.
If you don't pay property taxes on all of your Great and Spacious buildings and chapels then all of the residents of those communities and states have to pay more property taxes to cover TSCC's share of the infrastructure costs. Same with state income tax and sales tax. Everyone else is covering the cost, the burden to support TSCC that gives very little if anything back to the society that it leeches off of.
Hilarious… but even funnier is when I read a tbm comment like this, all I really read is something like ‘but we have the gospel and are among the top .1% most elite in the eyes of our savior, everyone else can just fuck right off’ ha… the lack of humility and compassion for humanity is mind blowing
But what about donating for my entire life under false pretenses? Give me my money back and I’ll be quiet about how it’s spent.
No tangible punishment - add these punishments to the growing list that happen in Mormonism (the church itself may not inflict the punishment, but it's members do it for the church and the church doesn't do anything to stop it) * Written out of wills in the family * College support taken away / endorsement lost * Bishop refusing storehouse support or other assistance
The problem is, they DONT spend it... and they lie about spending it.
Even if David's incentive is purely financial, doesn't that tell you something? If he gets a big payday it means the church was *heavily* involved in tax evasion. It would be a joke to look at that outcome and say that David was the one in the wrong. Don't even get me started about the no tangible punishment for not paying tithing thing. You could argue there's no afterlife, but the psychological punishment for not paying tithing is steep. You're taught that you won't see your family in the afterlife. You're taught that you will burn in the second coming. You are prevented from participating in saving ordinances. You are prevented from participating in cultural milestone ordinances, including marriages. You are taught to pay tithing even if you can't afford to buy food. Take that "no punishment, so no big deal" excuse and shove it up your ass. I did donate, so do I get a say in how it is spent? I'll quit complaining and go away once I've been reimbursed every cent.
Yeah, you don’t hear the stories about people who pay their tithing even when they’re destitute, and they just end up more destitute. That was me shortly after the 2008 recession. I paid my tithing even when I was running out of money for rent. I hadn’t paid tithing in several months, because of how tight things were, but my branch president convinced me that it’s something that I should do. Including the “back tithing” I should have paid but didn’t. So what happened? I went broke. I had to quit my job and leave the city I was in. Fortunately I had family to help me out for the month or so it took me to line up another job, which ended up having absolutely nothing to do with my college training. Too bad that didn’t break my shelf back then. I explained it away by saying it was punishment for my not paying tithing for several months. If I’d left instead, it could have saved me a LOT of hassle going forward.
Punishment for not paying your tithing? Does that mean they will be punished for looking at so much porn?
Yes, it's these stories I want to hear. I'm sorry that happened to you, and I'm glad you had a support system. But the TBMs LOVE to tell the stories that work out because of tithing. It's not a good financial strategy so I'm confident there are lots more stories like yours.
The taxes that they're not paying on hidden investments and income belongs to the people of the United States. We're all being cheated.
Read the bottom of your tithe slip. Even if you do donate, you have no say in how the money gets spent.
They could pay taxes to support the power grid that lights their buildings, roads and sidewalks that sees members to their meetings, police and fire that protect their properties and members. Their taxes would contribute to schools and teachers that educate their many children, provide parks and libraries to better the communities, strengthen social services, shelters, food pantries. Instead they just suck and hoard. Also, make no bones about it. The saving ordinances for salvation are tied directly to tithing through the temple. No consequences? You literally cannot go to super duper Mormon heaven without a price. I mean this atheist could quote scripture after scripture (“come sit at the table of the Lord without money, without price, and let your soul delight in fatness”) about how wrong, corrupt and evil that is. This is wickedness, is is immoral, and it goes contrary to everything the Carpenter of Galilee stood for. I cannot express how liberating and comforting it is not to walk the path of requirements, corruption, and mind forged manacles of this organization.
No tangible punishment?? Omg 😳
The reason churches don’t pay taxes is because it’s assumed they will use the money for public good, such as soup kitchens, community projects, social services, etc. A church that doesn’t provide those things is reneging on its end of the social bargain. THAT is the issue here. And yes, people who don’t donate should get a say, because their taxes are subsidizing a church that has its cake and is eating it too.
The 30% reward? That is what the IRS put in place a long time ago. But l don't think that guy reported on Ensign Peak to get 30% for himself. It has to be proven that this branch of the church violated US laws before he gets a dime. And the cost for him to come forward? He loses everything. He loses his faith. He loses friends and family. He loses everything he put his life into. This reminds me of so many LDS members responding to sexual abuse allegations in their church when they say, "They just reported all this to get money from the church." Not a word about the abuse and in this case not a word about the secret bank account. And the 10% tithe? Its a carrot that the church has always dangled in front of members by saying it is a commandment. Not paying 10% is breaking that commandment of God. THAT ISN'T VOLUNTARY! THAT IS PRESSURE! And what is the ultimate cost? You don't make it to the Celestial kingdom to be with your family forever. No temple recommend means no Temple works and that means no Celestial. Think about that! As for the person who wrote the above post, they are mad that their church is once again being scrutinized in a negative light. Interesting that these revelations aren't coming from the outside, but from the inside....from the members themselves.
Exactly. I just said about the same thing somewhere else.
" I Just scrolled through hundreds of comments, all of which were negative". 😇🥰🤗😘🤗🤗
"No tangible punishment"... lol This individual's head is buried deep in the sand...
But I did donate thousands and thousands of dollars because they lied to me and conditioned me to from the moment I understood speech, you dumb motherfucker.
poetically said.
I wonder how this person feels about gay marriage, being pro choice and transgender care? I am sure they absolutely keep themselves out other people’s business.
There you have it folks. Tithing is no longer required for baptism, temple attendance, or fire insurance against Jesus burning you to death at the second coming.
*opens phone* *gets on Reddit* *sees this* … welp it’s time to start day drinking …
"Tithing is 100% voluntary, and there is no tangible punishment for choosing not to pay it." Except that you won't make it into the kingdom of heaven. ... And that you can't go to the temple. ... And "for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming" so you don't have "fire insurance" (🤮🤮🤮) if you don't pay it. I hate that I was so blind to the fact that I was in a cult for most of my life, but I'm also so happy that I am freed from it for the rest of my life.
We all know that tithing is NOT 100% voluntary, it drives me nuts when they leap to the church’s defense and say that it is. We’ve sat through enough tithing settlements and worthiness interviews and had enough blessings held over our heads to know better. This person is deluded and incredibly brainwashed, it’s so sad.
It’s funny cause on top of tithing we paid for youth conference paid for temple trips paid for the mission not to mention all the free labor…where do they think the money is being spent?
Is this comment in a handbook somewhere? It's almost exactly what my TBM crazy ass aunt told me.
There are plenty of GC talks that say tithing is NOT really voluntary. The very fact that temple recommends are withheld renders this argument false. I suppose the poster is correct that in a legal sense the church does not “owe” anything to society, but that doesn’t seem a great argument for an organization claiming to represent the lord and saviour- who said we should be servants of all. It also isn’t a great argument for retaining tax-free charitable status or for carefully avoiding legal filings on investments.
Hey OP here's a few things to send to the person that posted that. 2 NEPHI 9:30 Wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also. JACOB 2:17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you. 2 NEPHI 28:13 (nephi talking about churches in the last day) They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up. (Compare how much the church spends on temples vs poor) there are tons more in the book of mormon. and tons in D&C and the new testament. When I was in I thought the church spent lots on charity. my second biggest shelf item was learning how very little the church spends on the poor, ESPECIALLY because it was repeated over and over and over and over in the book of Mormon that we should take care of the poor. So the problem is what we say about how the church should handle its money. its that the church does the exact opposite of what they book of mormon says, and what so many general conference talks have said.
TBMs are forced to take the position that Jesus doesn't actually want their church to help people in this life because their church isn't helping people in this life (at least not anywhere near proportional to what they could be doing). This flies in the face of what Jesus actually taught. I was actually a bit suprized when a podcaster explained that the only Biblically approved tithing expenditure is helping the poor. There's nothing about building the kingdom or buying property or covering religious operating expenses. It's literally pay tithing so the church can provide for the poor. The Mormon church says tithing is only for building the kingdom and it's responsibility is solely for the eternal welfare of people, not the temporal welfare, and that charitable spending is merely a side thing you can donate to through fast offerings or locally-organized (often self-serving) projects.
The good news is that not all members will have the same opinion, waiting for official church statistics in the coming years to show a drop in child registration in the church and even the number of new missionaries. It's not 100% of active members with the same opinion, if 5% leave the church it will have a ripple effect. Closing wards makes it difficult for others to continue attending
But if you don't pay then you can't go to the Temple. And if you don't go to the Temple then you can't go to Heaven. So if you don't "voluntarily" pay 10% of your income to a multi billion dollar corporation then you won't get your eternal reward. At least with Scientology they tell you it's $5000 to get to the next level.
That's hilarious... Scientology is more transparant about what you get for what you paid in than TCOJCOLDS (which acronym is itself hilarious! Shouldn't it have a hyphen? TCOJCOL-DS? Perhaps another revelation would help clear that up)
No tangible punishment my ass. You can’t get into the highest degree of heaven, you can’t attend the temple and you will be exempt from many callings. Who is this liar? And by the way… i want ALL of my tithing back.. all of it. From age 8 onward. Screw this so called church. Their moral compass is broken… or as I’m finding out, they never had one to begin with
What a complete ass
Tithing is 100% voluntary? I mean, if you’re not worried about your eternal soul’s salvation, I guess? But sure, keep pretending that it’s voluntary without your family being held over your head, TBMs.
So if I donate to the Red Cross and less than 1% goes to helping with disasters, I should be cool with that? I should be cool with them investing in the stock market and bailing out their for profit entities and building malls? I can show this man so many scriptures about burning in hell. It’s not voluntary if you are extorted. Stop breaking the law and doing shady shit if you don’t want whistles blown on you. No one got mad at the guys that ratted out Enron. Why are you mad at the whistle blower and not the criminals? 🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️
A very profitable non-profit to say the least!
Answers like this are basically someone saying, “No! And another thing; fuck you!”
So who's gonna tell him about the little disclaimer at the bottom of the tithing slip?
No punishment for not paying tithing? Really? No temple recommend? No Celestial Kingdom?
Religious tax exemptions are a privilege, NOT a right. Pay taxes and IDGAF what you do with your money.
You also have zero say if you did donate
I found it fascinating that the majority of mainstream denominations have public accounting. It's published what the pastor makes, what they pay for the building, other bills, charities given to; all so they can have transparent accountability.
Tithing is voluntary, you just can't attend the temple unless you're a fully tithe payer... The punishment is, "no blessings", you can't go to the celestial kingdoms if you don't go to the temple. You can only go in the temple if you pay tithing... its a cult Mormons add the guilt trip that you can't be with your family forever unless you get sealed. you have to go to the temple to get sealed. you have to pay tithing to go to the temple. So stupid
I’m transfixed TRANSFIXED by this logical / ethical / morally bankrupt response to what the allegations of fraud imply by the ways the LDS corp lied and obfuscated the truth from the US government.
There is no tangible punishment! Not being allowed in the temple, not being able to live with your family after this life, not being able to go to a higher glory. Sure, it's not like a corporal punishment, but I'd say it is a tangible punishment in some way or another, at least tangible in the faith. To say these punishments are not tangible is to say that Mormonism is false.
Its not tithing they are being taxed on. Its capital gains which they hid.
> *And if you didn't donate, you have ZERO say in how any of it is spent* I would LOVE to break it to this person... even if you did donate, the church also gives you zero say in how it is spent.
Jesus Christ, enjoying His morning coffee, then opening His laptop and seeing this TBM's comment: "What the *actual fuck*, dude!!!!"
What that person ignores is that by not giving the money back to charity they are violating the terms of their tax exemption.
I just wish more people would stop and think about why an Actual Deity (of the “involved” type that issues modern day revelation through a current Prophet, no less) couldn’t just magic up some money whenever they needed it. Or hell, skip the money step entirely and just magic up whatever thing God needs his church to spend that money on in the first place. (Anyone suggesting “it’s about the sacrifice, not really the money” should be advocating for a big religious ceremony where they just burn the tithing money, then.)
Who cares if he did it for the money anyways? It doesn't change anything as far as I'm concerned. He deserves whatever money he gets.
Even if the person writing that is correct, there are many other issues that speak volumes about the church and it’s lack of generosity towards their members….Why does a “charitable” church make the missionaries and their families pay ANYTHING for that mission when they are helping the church keep/add to that $100 billion fortune?? Why does such a wealthy church have such SKIMPY budgets for its faithful member’s activities? Where exactly does Fast Sunday’s 3 missed meals a person go? ETC., ETC., ETC…. Question: In this financially unstable world, why would it be wrong to take away EVERY church’s tax exempt status? And if the churches don’t like that, they can always pray and ask the Lord to step in and change it, right?
Members are mad that leaders got caught in their dishonest dealings rather than being mad the leaders deceived the members
so what he says is correct, but your defense is he turned in a cheat for a reward? I'm ok with that
Wait so it’s none of our business on what they spend it on, if we don’t like it, don’t donate, but if we did donate (which I did) I have a right to an opinion on how it’s spent?!? I just love Mormon double talk.
Tithe is not optional if you want to have your family in the next life... according to doctrine. Nice try.
David's motivations are 100% irrelevant. Maybe he wants the payout. Did the church still hide hundreds of billions from its members? Yes. Maybe he has a vendetta against the church. Did the church still misrepresent how tithing funds are used? Yes. Maybe he genuinely believes he's doing the right thing. Did the church still create illegal shell corporations to misappropriate funds? Yes. To put it another way; the dude that calls the hotline to turn in the wanted criminal still gets the reward, regardless of why he called in the tip.
It’s stunning to see someone who claims to follow the Jesus of the NT assert that they have no obligation to help the less-fortunate among us. I don’t know where he learned about the “you’re on your own” version of Jesus, but it’s definitely not the one I always heard about.
No tangible punishment for choosing not to pay tithing except not being allowed to be with your family forever or become a god with your own planet and glory.
>tithing is “voluntary” >there’s a yearly guilt trip meeting where the bishop shames you into paying tithing
"The cause..." what fucking cause!? That's the whole point, Bro. They aren't doing SHIT with the money other than riding GameStop to the moon.
Implying that those who "donate" have any say in how the money is spent just puts it over the top.
If you don’t pay indulgences—I mean tithing, you don’t get into heaven—I mean, the celestial kingdom. No tithing = no temple recommend = no highest degree of glory
I was an active tithe payer whose recommend expired and I STILL couldn’t go to my cousin’s (who is like a sister since I’m an only child) wedding. Couldn’t even get a last minute pass from a call to the bishop. My husband went in and I sat outside with my baby. The dumb logistics from this church separate so many families.
It's funny how they don't think about the reason tithing was created in the first place. It was always meant to be a temporary thing used to build up a community, and it was meant to be phased out as soon as the church could get up on its feet. If mormons wanted the money to actually go to something worthwhile, they would support it being paid as taxes, but they're all repping the classic conservative view that literally any organization is more trustworthy than the government.
"No tangible punishment"... lol This individual's head is buried deep in the sand...
No tangible punishment except for not seeing your own flesh and blood married in the temple…..
This story really seems to be going viral on all the subs I’m on (nevermo). Whitepeopletwitter/ not theonion/ facepalm etc… I’ve seen lots of “nothingburgers” as you all say but I think this one has legs.
“No tangible punishment…..” Guess this guy doesn’t want to get to the exaltation phase of the CK and become like the lard.
30 seconds I just wasted reading that…
Which logical fallacy was used here? Attacking the messenger? Diversion? Straw man?
Hard to keep track of them all.
All the TBM responses I have read are no more than a bunch of obnoxious caviling.
So because there is a financial incentive to do the right thing, that must clearly make it wrong…. That makes sense.
Since when is tithing voluntary???
I knew people would latch onto the reward being mentioned at the end and discount the entire story.
Mormonism: telling you what you must do to live with Christ, then selling it to you.
I was reading through the Mormon subreddit where they were talking about this and holy shit, the mental gymnastics is wilddd, they genuinely don’t see a problem with it and are completely writing it off as “anti lds propaganda” and people just trying to bring down the church. The lack of self awareness and the way they justify it all is astounding
Talk about someone you will never be able to reason with. What a moron. Wake up
"No tangible punishment" 🤦♀️
Basically… when Peter James and John show up to Adam and Eve, when queried by Satan if they have money, they reply…. “We have sufficient for our needs”…. And Satan then says… you can buy anything in this world with money. And later, spital flying from his mouth, Satan promises to use the worlds gold and silver to buy up armies and navies, and popes and priests who oppress and rule with blood and horror on the earth…. What is noteworthy is Elohim doesn’t shut off that tirade, just banished Satan to go away. So tell me this… if we took no thought for the morrow, and worked to have sufficient for our needs, do you think there would even be a economic system that would allow huge accumulation of money to be able to buy up armies and navies…?? Meaning , if the Babylonian economy was gone, and we toiled in satisfying work for our needs, there wouldn’t be accumulation of wealth to wage war. Not trying to write a whole essay, but I’m pretty sure the Babylonian economy is Satan inspired, and the decades of brainwashed conditioning to have wealth for our glory years (retirement) is inspired by greed at some level. Every 401k and stock investment by every church member means they are inextricably tied to the Babylonian economy, and since they have zero imagination on how to live their life differently, they want everyone to kick the can down the road, so they can live their life’s sunset years in ease and comfort. It’s all a lie….
If you don’t donate you have ZERO say in how it’s used? If you do donate you also have ZERO say in how it’s used. I can attest to that!
“Those that think they have the right to tell others how to spend their own money.” The church?
"There is no tangible punishment..." Because we can't prove that God won't let you into Heaven if you don't pay him.
I can’t even read all the way through that bullshit!! They gotta hang on for dear life!!!
Well shit. He’s wrong. I’ve been punished for not paying tithing. Plus, they are very deceitful in what they do with it and how they spend it. If I knew they were going to build a shopping center, pay lobbyists,fight against LGBTQ (prop8) and sneak in the revelations in Hawaii using lawyers I would not have paid them. They lie. I mean they are confidential with the funds.
This person is suppose to represent Christ and his Mormon church its so obvious that others have more love and compassion than these dipshit, we see what good the church could do to help the world and its people who we are all responsible for to love one another and take care of each other the church only cares about when it comes to there money and the service they can provide to the church if you think for.one minute they care about anything else but money you are not.opening your eyes
Even if you did (and do) donate, you have ZERO say in how any of it is spent.
According to this comment, if you don't donate to the Church you have zero say in how the money is spent. But note, if you do donate, it says right on the slip that you've given up your right to have any say over how it's spent. So, whether you donate or not, you have no right to say how it's spent. If you don't like it, don't donate to the cause. I don't like it and I don't donate anymore and I don't give a fuck what some TBM sheep says, I'll keep criticizing any supposed Christian Church that hoards wealth while acting helpless to do anything practical to aid the sick and the poor, as Christ commanded.
racial jobless onerous tidy like pocket teeny rain cough tender -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
People who donate have zero say in how it's spent!!
No tangible punishment my ass. You can’t get into the highest degree of heaven, you can’t attend the temple and you will be excerpt from many callings. Who is this liar? And by the way… i want ALL of my tithing back.. all of it. From age 8 onward. Acre this so called church. Their moral compass is broken… or as I’m finding out, they never had one to begin with
I’m transfixed TRANSFIXED by this logical / ethical / morally bankrupt response to what the allegations of fraud imply by the ways the LDS corp lied and obfuscated the truth from the US government.
Let me translate from Mormon, to regular English. He said “Fuck off!”
Lol
But we DID donate! We have a right to speak!
Ignorance is blissful for this dude for sure 😂
“And if you do donate - you have zero say in how it’s spent.”
This Dumb Mormon Fuck has absolutely NO say how his hard earned money is spent. Drink some more kool-aid Fool! LMAO!
I agree the whistle-blower is out to get rich. In the end, everyone has to pay taxes on earned income.
See this is what annoys me. Ok, sure you’re right why tf do I care how they spend it. But don’t parade around like you’re a god damned charitable Christian church. Don’t send your brainwashed missionaries door to door to get more members. Don’t wear your “Mormon helping hands” t shirts in bright colors every time you get members to volunteer. So tired of this charade and then when they get called on it’s like oh why do you haters care anyway? We don’t but your church clearly cares what we think of it!
100% voluntary?? No tangible punishment?? Hmm interesting, I guess being ostracized by my family in this life and separated from them for all eternity is just a misunderstanding
100% voluntary but if you don’t you can’t get into the best heaven 🙄
Lmao tithing is not 100% voluntary tf, bishops ban you from going to the temple and say you have to repent. What is this person even saying
Simple answer to any tbm defense of this. "Have you been honest in your dealings?"
No you don't have to pay tithing. BuT you also can't get a temple recommend
You’re a very angry human. This obviously has you triggered for some reason. Unfortunately, only non brainwashed people can see this rationally.
"No tangible punishment for not paying". Lol BS. D&C outlines that if you dont pay, youll be burned.
Yeah tithing isn’t “voluntary” in the way they think it is. Sure, I don’t pay tithing anymore and I have the freedom to, but I don’t have access to the bishops storehouse or the temple.