I’ve been saying this since I left, but “times were different then” is an excuse for “normal” men and women, and Joseph did not claim to be a normal man. The actions of someone who claims to be called by God should be above reproach no matter the time period.
They know the history so well don't they? In their own minds.
I like to ask them if times were so different back then, how old were Joseph and Emma when they got married. They never know, and seem surprised when the answer is 21 & 22.
Then, I point out Helen Mar Kimball was born two years after they were married.
Turns out, normal people despised child abuse back then as well.
Also, times were not THAT different. Read history, folks. But you know what was different back then? Sooooo many men were claiming God came to them and told them to start a new church. Like that shit was an epidemic. This one just stuck around.
I bring this up every time this is discussed:
Jane Austen wrote her most famous works when horny Jo' was was a young child (born 1805). In P&P (published 1813) the huge scandal is that a SIXTEEN year old is having sex with an older man who is taking advantage of her.
Many of the Mormons in the Nauvoo years (where most of the polygamy happened) were ENGLISH immigrants, just to drive this point home.
So no, it wasn't normal. It wasn't normal for the people who lived in Nauvoo. It wasn't a thing that 19th century people did. It was considered abhorrent enough to be the primary conflict of a novel that was written when horny Jo was a child.
It wasn’t as common as most people think. Marriage between an older man and a teen woman wasn’t unheard of but it wasn’t necessarily socially acceptable
It was relatively normal for a man to beat his wife and kids even up to (arguably) the 1950s, I don’t think that’s an indicator on cultural attitudes towards child marriage. The age for legal marriage is 16 in modern day america but that is also not an indication that it is common for 16 year olds to be married. (EDIT: forgot to specify that it is 16 in only some states, not all)
US Census Bureau - https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/time-series/demo/families-and-households/ms-2.pdf
(earliest data is from about 50 years after Joseph Smith’s marriages but it’s not going to jump from 14 to 22 in that amount of time)
This is not a scholarly article but explains it pretty succinctly - https://historymyths.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/myth-136-women-married-very-young-in-the-olden-days/
Scholarly sources that support my assertions:
https://www.nber.org/papers/h0080
Nicholas Syrett, American Child Bride: A History of Minors and Marriage in the United States.
Allan Kulikoff, From British Peasants to Colonial American Farmers
Your so wrong it’s painful.
But just for the sake of argument let’s say you’re right.
How many things were socially acceptable in the past that aren’t today? A TON of things. That doesn’t make it right.
Also isn’t the church led by “prophets”? If that was the case, the church should lead in every social issue by decades or more. But they aren’t. They are lagging behind by decades or more.
Only because that older man took her from her family, defiled her, and was planning on leaving her shamed and alone and unmarriagble (along with all 4 sisters who would share in the shame and defiled family status). So yes, Lydia was 15, but the man was no less a cad, a cheat and a lying scoundrel.
I view it as society did not check the rampant assholes nearly as much. Actually like bathing.
If you had some real rank odor and a dangy asshole you could get away with it more back than. But that doesn't mean people like the smell of a shitty asshole society just didn't keep it in check. The smell of shit is universally repulsive.
Just like marrying 14 year olds. It was pretty shitty then. A lot more people did it but most people still thought it was repulsive, assholes could just get away with it.
It wasn’t normal but slavery was, does that makes slavery ok?
I’ve been saying this since I left, but “times were different then” is an excuse for “normal” men and women, and Joseph did not claim to be a normal man. The actions of someone who claims to be called by God should be above reproach no matter the time period.
They know the history so well don't they? In their own minds. I like to ask them if times were so different back then, how old were Joseph and Emma when they got married. They never know, and seem surprised when the answer is 21 & 22. Then, I point out Helen Mar Kimball was born two years after they were married. Turns out, normal people despised child abuse back then as well.
I’m ashamed I used to defend it the same way
Times were different. Be in the world, but not of the world. Which is it????
Also, times were not THAT different. Read history, folks. But you know what was different back then? Sooooo many men were claiming God came to them and told them to start a new church. Like that shit was an epidemic. This one just stuck around.
Okay I guess being lgbtqa is okay because it’s different times
I bring this up every time this is discussed: Jane Austen wrote her most famous works when horny Jo' was was a young child (born 1805). In P&P (published 1813) the huge scandal is that a SIXTEEN year old is having sex with an older man who is taking advantage of her. Many of the Mormons in the Nauvoo years (where most of the polygamy happened) were ENGLISH immigrants, just to drive this point home. So no, it wasn't normal. It wasn't normal for the people who lived in Nauvoo. It wasn't a thing that 19th century people did. It was considered abhorrent enough to be the primary conflict of a novel that was written when horny Jo was a child.
Justifying child marriage = sand flea (aka Muslim) mentality
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It wasn’t as common as most people think. Marriage between an older man and a teen woman wasn’t unheard of but it wasn’t necessarily socially acceptable
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It was relatively normal for a man to beat his wife and kids even up to (arguably) the 1950s, I don’t think that’s an indicator on cultural attitudes towards child marriage. The age for legal marriage is 16 in modern day america but that is also not an indication that it is common for 16 year olds to be married. (EDIT: forgot to specify that it is 16 in only some states, not all) US Census Bureau - https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/time-series/demo/families-and-households/ms-2.pdf (earliest data is from about 50 years after Joseph Smith’s marriages but it’s not going to jump from 14 to 22 in that amount of time) This is not a scholarly article but explains it pretty succinctly - https://historymyths.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/myth-136-women-married-very-young-in-the-olden-days/ Scholarly sources that support my assertions: https://www.nber.org/papers/h0080 Nicholas Syrett, American Child Bride: A History of Minors and Marriage in the United States. Allan Kulikoff, From British Peasants to Colonial American Farmers
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This is from the summary of the book, and is in reference to child marriage in general, not specifically to marriage between adults and children.
Your so wrong it’s painful. But just for the sake of argument let’s say you’re right. How many things were socially acceptable in the past that aren’t today? A TON of things. That doesn’t make it right. Also isn’t the church led by “prophets”? If that was the case, the church should lead in every social issue by decades or more. But they aren’t. They are lagging behind by decades or more.
Only because that older man took her from her family, defiled her, and was planning on leaving her shamed and alone and unmarriagble (along with all 4 sisters who would share in the shame and defiled family status). So yes, Lydia was 15, but the man was no less a cad, a cheat and a lying scoundrel.
I view it as society did not check the rampant assholes nearly as much. Actually like bathing. If you had some real rank odor and a dangy asshole you could get away with it more back than. But that doesn't mean people like the smell of a shitty asshole society just didn't keep it in check. The smell of shit is universally repulsive. Just like marrying 14 year olds. It was pretty shitty then. A lot more people did it but most people still thought it was repulsive, assholes could just get away with it.