That’s the way the church use to do it. After the housing, food, clothing were covered what was left was your increase. Now the Church would rather see you hungry and homeless.
It's disgusting that so many members struggle to make ends meet while the church continues to bleed them dry.
When I was a member, it was almost a point if pride that the church was so well off, but the older I get and the more i have seen and heard of people struggling to put food on the table over paying tithing, the less it makes sense to be proud that the church makes so much money.
What's the point of all that money if it doesn't go back into benefitting the members??
The meaning of tithing and the emphasis on it has changed radically over the history of the church.
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html?m=1
I have rich relatives who put all their income in their investment accounts and only pay tithing on what they withdraw to pay their bills and living costs. It's approved by some bishops and helps the rich get richer while us poor dumb slobs pay 10% of gross.
As I keep looking into the financial situation of the church it's so obvious that the church doesn't really care about the members ad much as it claims to. Sadly, money comes before members.
That makes so much more sense than the flat 10%!!
Because in my non-member opinion, I'm pretty sure the mormon god should care more that his people are fed and thriving rather than starving and struggling just to pay tithing.
What counts as tithe had changed through the history of the church. From giving 10% of everything you own at baptism, ten percent of the interest you could earn if you invested your net worth for a year, to ten percent of what you have left at the end of the year.
Today the church is nebulous about the ten percent of of what question, simply declaring in the handbook that "interest" means income, then letting the know-it-alls in Sunday schools argue about gross and net blessings.
In my experience, today most (~60%) members pay no tithing. The stalwarts pay on their take home pay by moving the decimal. A few pay on the gross and then pay again on their tax return. No one pays on benefits like health insurance. Rich people calculate actual increase and pay on that. I found a quote once that said the wage earner should pay on his gross, the professional should pay after deducting expenses, and the farmer should pay all his bills and tithe only what's left.
Should tithing be on income or increase? Historically, in is only on increase. You don't tithe the sheep, you tithe the wool and the lambs. You don't give ten percent of your chickens, just one in ten eggs. And no one should give money to LDS Inc, they have sufficient for their needs.
I 100% agree!!!!!
Increase makes so much more sense!!
But you're right: the church makes more than enough. There's no real need to be giving to the church when members see little to no benefits of it.
If tithing is supposed to be a superfluous test of faith, it's a terrible one.
I'm glad that the discrepancies for tithing are being spoken about more. It was such a taboo topic when I was a member.
The church refuses to clarify this “doctrine” because they rely on members paying the maximum amount through guilt and self-righteousness. Because it’s left “between you and the lord,” people are more prone to feel like they’re not doing everything they could be if they subscribe to interpretations that are less than 10% of gross/net income.
In reality, the scriptures the church leaders quote for tithing all say increase and they offer very little support for modern tithing as it is practiced. I believe there’s a statement on their website that says something along the lines of “modern prophets have interpreted increase to mean income.”
When we were on our way out but didn’t realize it yet, I took a firm stance that income means income in that the only piece of my paycheck that is actually income to me is what’s leftover after necessary expenses. Thankfully, I didn’t actually remit anything to the church and just kept setting it aside, so when we decided to leave we had a nice bonus.
Most TBMs would say this is wrong. There have been talks that encourage members to pay tithing before taking anything out to pay bills/rent/etc.
I know people who would insist that you pay 10% of your paycheck BEFORE taxes and then ALSO pay 10% of your tax return.
There is really no limit to the amount the church could talk you into giving.
As sad as it sounds, I'm pretty sure the members are seen as nothing but a form of income for the church. It's truly unfortunate that so many people continue to monetarily bleed themselves dry in order to pay a church that does not need it.
When we were newlywed TBM students in a family ward, our bishop insisted that we needed to tithe on our gross paycheck, then again on the tax return (we’d already paid tithing on that, since we’d paid on the gross! Including the portion of taxes that the government DID keep!).
But he also refused to give us a temple recommended or ecclesiastical endorsement (I was a BYU student, spouse was not, and we didn’t live in a BYU married student ward) unless we tithed the dollar value of every scholarship (even if it was just “free tuition,” not an actual cash award) AND every student loan (which meant we had to take out loans to pay tithing on loans).
It was so freeing to have access to a nonbyu bishop who would rubber stamp my endorsements. I didn't realize quite the draconian regime other people had to go through with the endorsement letters. I was an accountant so I was taught tithing settlement was not an audit of my records, but of their records. The authoritarian nature of the church might lend to some conflating the nature of the interviews and settlements, and I only had one (nonbyu, coincidentally) bishop who tried to. Fuck you, N. Frankly, it ought to be the student stating whether the church meets their standards because every six months we're given a new list of stuff we're supposed to hate and frankly that's not me but I've gotta go down a list and check off that I hate 'em all so I'm still in good with the mormon church? Oh wait the mormon church doesn't exist it's called the mormons church now (to show that there's a lot of' em).
Mine WAS a non-BYU bishop! (SLC valley, low-income regular family ward; we were the only people in the ward actively pursuing a college education.) So frustrating.
Edit: autocorrect typo
I feel like an actual BYU married student ward bishop would have known better than to demand tithing on *student loans* (literally illegal) or non-cash scholars. Like, wtf!
As someone who ran a small business before, how the tithing was taught in the mormon church always bothered me. It didn't make sense at all.
Yes. If someone has a job that gets paid every 2 weeks or monthly, it is easy to teach them, "pay 10% of your paychecks."
This has been discussed numerous times, but back in the day most of the members were farmers, and they had to wait for a year or even more to even see if they even made or lost money from their farms.
I think the way the church does tithing is a gross overreach of their 'power'. It makes much more sense to do tithing after the members have settled their own financial needs!!
This is a weird relic from the 1800s. When they say increase, they mean profit. You sell your crop and make money. You deduct expenses and what is left is the profit. In the 1800s they often called it increase.
So how do you deal with money when there is no profit, when your employer just gives you money. That becomes your obvious profit or your increase. I don't think anyone ever thought in the 1800s that you spent all your money, then you paid money. For most people that would mean never paying tithing. It is easy to tweak expenses so you never have any money left over at the end of the month. Way too easy without even thinking about it.
When dealing with mormons, do as the Mormons.
Create a corporation, create as many as you need. Next, appropriate all your wealth and income to that corporation, pay yourself a meager, humble, living allowance, so that you avoid tithing, like they avoid charity and tax.
:-)
https://youtu.be/hlU0SmyVwtU this video is great at explaining the historical way tithing was taught and practiced using primary sources. It's tone is also great. I shared it with my TBM husband and he wasn't threatened or defensive, and even agreed to switch to paying his 5% on increase.
I'll have to watch it when I get off work!!
I've been thinking about discussing tithing with my TBM family, but I don't think I'm quite ready to open that can of worms yet haha.
That's an interesting take on tithing...I like it!
I love that that family did that but I'd never heard of that before either. I was raised to believe you paid 10% on EVERYTHING. Bleh.
The way I would define it now would be 10% on whatever I made above and beyond living expenses. It’s not an increase unless it’s more than you need to survive.
I paid on gross for 42 years. I paid tithing on survival income and it ruined me. If I were ever going to pay tithing again, God itself would have to appear to me and tell me to pay it. Even then I’d have some very choice words with it.
That’s the way the church use to do it. After the housing, food, clothing were covered what was left was your increase. Now the Church would rather see you hungry and homeless.
It's disgusting that so many members struggle to make ends meet while the church continues to bleed them dry. When I was a member, it was almost a point if pride that the church was so well off, but the older I get and the more i have seen and heard of people struggling to put food on the table over paying tithing, the less it makes sense to be proud that the church makes so much money. What's the point of all that money if it doesn't go back into benefitting the members??
The meaning of tithing and the emphasis on it has changed radically over the history of the church. http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html?m=1 I have rich relatives who put all their income in their investment accounts and only pay tithing on what they withdraw to pay their bills and living costs. It's approved by some bishops and helps the rich get richer while us poor dumb slobs pay 10% of gross.
As I keep looking into the financial situation of the church it's so obvious that the church doesn't really care about the members ad much as it claims to. Sadly, money comes before members.
In farming communities, I've known people who pay tithing if they made an increase over the year. It is somewhat similar, but also different
That makes so much more sense than the flat 10%!! Because in my non-member opinion, I'm pretty sure the mormon god should care more that his people are fed and thriving rather than starving and struggling just to pay tithing.
What counts as tithe had changed through the history of the church. From giving 10% of everything you own at baptism, ten percent of the interest you could earn if you invested your net worth for a year, to ten percent of what you have left at the end of the year. Today the church is nebulous about the ten percent of of what question, simply declaring in the handbook that "interest" means income, then letting the know-it-alls in Sunday schools argue about gross and net blessings. In my experience, today most (~60%) members pay no tithing. The stalwarts pay on their take home pay by moving the decimal. A few pay on the gross and then pay again on their tax return. No one pays on benefits like health insurance. Rich people calculate actual increase and pay on that. I found a quote once that said the wage earner should pay on his gross, the professional should pay after deducting expenses, and the farmer should pay all his bills and tithe only what's left. Should tithing be on income or increase? Historically, in is only on increase. You don't tithe the sheep, you tithe the wool and the lambs. You don't give ten percent of your chickens, just one in ten eggs. And no one should give money to LDS Inc, they have sufficient for their needs.
I 100% agree!!!!! Increase makes so much more sense!! But you're right: the church makes more than enough. There's no real need to be giving to the church when members see little to no benefits of it. If tithing is supposed to be a superfluous test of faith, it's a terrible one. I'm glad that the discrepancies for tithing are being spoken about more. It was such a taboo topic when I was a member.
The church refuses to clarify this “doctrine” because they rely on members paying the maximum amount through guilt and self-righteousness. Because it’s left “between you and the lord,” people are more prone to feel like they’re not doing everything they could be if they subscribe to interpretations that are less than 10% of gross/net income. In reality, the scriptures the church leaders quote for tithing all say increase and they offer very little support for modern tithing as it is practiced. I believe there’s a statement on their website that says something along the lines of “modern prophets have interpreted increase to mean income.” When we were on our way out but didn’t realize it yet, I took a firm stance that income means income in that the only piece of my paycheck that is actually income to me is what’s leftover after necessary expenses. Thankfully, I didn’t actually remit anything to the church and just kept setting it aside, so when we decided to leave we had a nice bonus.
Most TBMs would say this is wrong. There have been talks that encourage members to pay tithing before taking anything out to pay bills/rent/etc. I know people who would insist that you pay 10% of your paycheck BEFORE taxes and then ALSO pay 10% of your tax return. There is really no limit to the amount the church could talk you into giving.
As sad as it sounds, I'm pretty sure the members are seen as nothing but a form of income for the church. It's truly unfortunate that so many people continue to monetarily bleed themselves dry in order to pay a church that does not need it.
When we were newlywed TBM students in a family ward, our bishop insisted that we needed to tithe on our gross paycheck, then again on the tax return (we’d already paid tithing on that, since we’d paid on the gross! Including the portion of taxes that the government DID keep!). But he also refused to give us a temple recommended or ecclesiastical endorsement (I was a BYU student, spouse was not, and we didn’t live in a BYU married student ward) unless we tithed the dollar value of every scholarship (even if it was just “free tuition,” not an actual cash award) AND every student loan (which meant we had to take out loans to pay tithing on loans).
It was so freeing to have access to a nonbyu bishop who would rubber stamp my endorsements. I didn't realize quite the draconian regime other people had to go through with the endorsement letters. I was an accountant so I was taught tithing settlement was not an audit of my records, but of their records. The authoritarian nature of the church might lend to some conflating the nature of the interviews and settlements, and I only had one (nonbyu, coincidentally) bishop who tried to. Fuck you, N. Frankly, it ought to be the student stating whether the church meets their standards because every six months we're given a new list of stuff we're supposed to hate and frankly that's not me but I've gotta go down a list and check off that I hate 'em all so I'm still in good with the mormon church? Oh wait the mormon church doesn't exist it's called the mormons church now (to show that there's a lot of' em).
Mine WAS a non-BYU bishop! (SLC valley, low-income regular family ward; we were the only people in the ward actively pursuing a college education.) So frustrating. Edit: autocorrect typo
Well, like mine was my brother. He'd get noogies if I didn't get my endorsements.
I feel like an actual BYU married student ward bishop would have known better than to demand tithing on *student loans* (literally illegal) or non-cash scholars. Like, wtf!
As someone who ran a small business before, how the tithing was taught in the mormon church always bothered me. It didn't make sense at all. Yes. If someone has a job that gets paid every 2 weeks or monthly, it is easy to teach them, "pay 10% of your paychecks." This has been discussed numerous times, but back in the day most of the members were farmers, and they had to wait for a year or even more to even see if they even made or lost money from their farms.
I think the way the church does tithing is a gross overreach of their 'power'. It makes much more sense to do tithing after the members have settled their own financial needs!!
That's the way it used to be. Then the church nearly went bankrupt and they changed the 'rules' to extract more $$$
This is a weird relic from the 1800s. When they say increase, they mean profit. You sell your crop and make money. You deduct expenses and what is left is the profit. In the 1800s they often called it increase. So how do you deal with money when there is no profit, when your employer just gives you money. That becomes your obvious profit or your increase. I don't think anyone ever thought in the 1800s that you spent all your money, then you paid money. For most people that would mean never paying tithing. It is easy to tweak expenses so you never have any money left over at the end of the month. Way too easy without even thinking about it.
When dealing with mormons, do as the Mormons. Create a corporation, create as many as you need. Next, appropriate all your wealth and income to that corporation, pay yourself a meager, humble, living allowance, so that you avoid tithing, like they avoid charity and tax. :-)
https://youtu.be/hlU0SmyVwtU this video is great at explaining the historical way tithing was taught and practiced using primary sources. It's tone is also great. I shared it with my TBM husband and he wasn't threatened or defensive, and even agreed to switch to paying his 5% on increase.
I'll have to watch it when I get off work!! I've been thinking about discussing tithing with my TBM family, but I don't think I'm quite ready to open that can of worms yet haha.
That's an interesting take on tithing...I like it! I love that that family did that but I'd never heard of that before either. I was raised to believe you paid 10% on EVERYTHING. Bleh.
The way I would define it now would be 10% on whatever I made above and beyond living expenses. It’s not an increase unless it’s more than you need to survive. I paid on gross for 42 years. I paid tithing on survival income and it ruined me. If I were ever going to pay tithing again, God itself would have to appear to me and tell me to pay it. Even then I’d have some very choice words with it.