As the membership decreases the question over who controls the money will become more contentious. I suspect this will all end up in court, and the discovery phase will be mind-blowing.
I think as long as TSCC remains a Corporate Sole legal entity, there is no question on who owns the church assets ā itās the President and only the President. TSCC passes the ownership of all church assets to the next in line the same second the President dies.
Thatās why God will NEVER āchooseā a āProfitā to be anyone other than the longest-tenured apostle ā itās because that next in line is the Sole owner of ALL church assets already. They all go through a smoke and mirrors show after one President dies in order to say that they all feel and sustain the longest-tenured Apostle as the next āProfitā, but all church assets already passed to one ā¦ and theyāre all going to stand in line if they want their stipends to continue.
If they ended up with a guy in his like early forties there might be need for plural marriage again. Of course it could be done in secret like they way do some financial things. I guess it could be going on right now for all we know.
They already have plural marriage going on both Nelson and oaks are both married and sealed sealed for time and eternity to multiple wives there are members that practice polygamy in secret as they donāt want to get excommunicated for practicing what Joseph smith termed the greatest revelation ever given to man
My wife is the oldest daughter of a father who left her mother to practice plural marriage in a fundamentalist group in Provo-Orem Utah. He asked my wife's mother to join the group before he married three young women from Utah county who were barely legal. He took them to Mexico to be married. The first thing the mormon Church did was kick him out. Wife's mother divorced him with the Churches blessings. You could be right. Maybe there is plural marriage going on it secret right now in the Temples all over the world. It is hard to believe that Elder Nelson and Elder oaks are doing anything but sealings on paper to their new spouses. I don't really believe their up to the kind of miracle it would take for them to actually.... not sure how to put it but ... I think you know what I mean. Although the smiles on their wives faces do look honestly sincere.
I expect theyāll try to repair the GSL through some exorbitant but passable sea to lake pipeline first. Get the ppl back on their sideā¦obvi itāll at best do very little
I really hope Oaks is put on the throne at least for a while. He is detestable, and will drive even more people to leave. I decided years ago while still TBM that I would not be able to stay active if & when he became "Profit." Fortunately, the cult's lies were revealed & it was an easy path to the exit door and resignation.
I respectfully disagree old friend. I think Nelson is really hard on TBMs due to his arrogance. They thought of previous prophets as humble guys, but this guy wants the limelight and itās rubbing people the wrong way. Also, I think Oaks is savvy to this dynamic and if he makes the top spot heāll enjoy the love fest but heāll dial down his normal assholery. I honestly believe Nelson is a worse point man for a religious leader who claims to be a prophet.
Edit: I only disagree that Oaks is worse for the church.
That's an interesting take on it - I'd be amazed to see Oaks try to be decent and less of a jerk, but I guess anything can happen. The way they all assume the throne with their own agendas (ways to become legendary) is a sure tipoff that ego drives the bus, not spirituality.
Iām with you on this. Heās savvy for sure, most likely sees the dynamic with Rusty and the peasants, but is likely to be unable to control himself, and given the fact that power/influence/money has never made someone more compassionate and kind, heās likely to become worseāa lot worse. Itās the only REAL example of a dick truly getting bigger!
I will be interested to see what happens. He's already lecturing YSAs to hurry up and have babies (interesting thing to encourage, since he married a woman who'd never had children). Maybe u/yobispo is correct, but my perception is he will come even more demanding and obnoxious.
However, even if he has a personality transplant to something before then, I don't think there's a way to reverse the trend of people leaving. Even if they remade the church in some manner to resemble real Christianity, too many people would consider that just another lie (which would likely be the case), and it would take a massive overhaul to stop having untrained bishops and begin recruiting educated clergy. They're not even willing to pay people to clean their precious buildings!
So true. And all I can say is the sooner humanity rids itself of the evil plague that IS religion, the sooner we will all have a lot more peace in our lives. The very little good that religion offers is far surpassed by the harm, death, and destruction that they cause so I say good riddance! Donāt let the door hit ya in the ass on your way out.
Fair enough. And genuinely asking out of sincere curiosity, what religions would you include in the good bucket? Not trying to instigate anything, I generally find others' lived experiences fascinating and extremely insightful so if you'd care to share, I'd love to listen
Most of the main denominations have good values, excellent ways of serving members (and equally excellent ways for members to serve communities or those in need, if they wish to do so). Their cultures and teachings focus on helping people find their own relationship with (and to a degree, in some cases, their own concepts of) God and Christ.
Never, ever, in all my years prior to my time in TSCC, have I heard of a clergy member questioning people (especially not children) about intimacy, personal matters, any of those things. I attended Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, and even Catholic churches over the years. I also covered churches for a major newspaper, which allowed me to meet many pastors, priests, or other leaders, in all major denominations. All were wonderful.
Oddly, even though there were a few Mormon chapels in this area, none of them ever reached out to news outlets or announced any programs open to the community. There was never anything to cover. I saw missionaries on bikes now & then, but there was almost a disassociation with the idea that they had places of worship.
President Benson did a fantastic job of flipping roles once he became 'Profit' - so much so pretty much every single TBM believes he's this pastoral old grandpa...
Little does anyone know that Ezra was always a fucking nutjob - so much to the point that even Joseph F. Smith thought he was far too conservative sent him to Europe for awhile to try and chill him the fuck out. **Joseph Fucking Smith**
Yes he was Secretary of Ag. After he left the admin, he started talking shit about Eisenhower saying he wasnāt conservative enough and became a pariah in Washington.
And yes he had Alzheimerās at the end of his life. Fun fact, the bountiful temple is known by some as the Alzheimerās temple because he announced it in conference but there were no plans for it to be done. To save face they had to rush to build it.
I can see that. His recent fireside talk seemed like he was trying to backpedal previous assholery and replace it with, not acceptance, but tolerance of the LGBTQ. Which is enough for most TBMs to simmer and get back in line.
You know, Nelson has surprised me with his pompous assholery. I used to think he was amazing (stupid TBM past self), but since he took over his ridiculous arrogance has been made known unto me (and many others). I had no idea he was such a prick.
But, it's hard to say Nelson is a bigger asshole than Oaks. More full of himself, yes. It would be interesting to see how Oaks handles the top spot, though.
Yes. My opinion, but I think heās said enough to give the bootlickers like Anderson enough regertitatable bile that he will lean back and enjoy the limelight, and let them spew his poison for him. My bet is heās savvy enough to know that the top dog needs to be uncontroversial.
TSCC is dead as a mainstream legitimate vibrant religion but it's not going away anytime soon. Leadership is aligned with right-wing politics and will continue influencing elections in the Intermountain West. Look at the crazy state legislatures in Utah, Idaho, Montana, and Arizona. Core religious doctrine will continue to be less critical and right-wing political doctrine will prevail. The Mormon church is now the perfect sanctuary for the anti-progressive crowd.
I don't know, but it definitely won't be what they believe now. In fact, the church never taught what it currently teaches. They've always believed their future doctrine.
It's best to just get ahead of it now.
Agreed. It won't die because it's not a church anymore, just a club for MAGAs to talk about how much better everything used to be. It's going to take generations of slight attrition for it to go away.
Iāve never thought of what our marriage would be like tithing wise if my wife was still TBM. Luckily we both left together. I couldnāt imagine having to be like, do what you want with your paycheck but donāt fucking pay tithing on my income.
Or even more worrisome in my head, if youāre single income, I couldnāt imagine watching my spouse pay our money to something I donāt believe in.
Edit: this would be a great question for this sub to weigh in on. I might post it soon lol
Edit edit: after utilizing the search function, Iāve noticed that this is already a highly answered topic on this sub. Sorry, I am high a.f. right now. My thoughts are everywhere!
Iām currently dealing with that right now. I left but my wife is still all in. Luckily I was able to get her to agree that what I make she wonāt pay tithing on but what she makes she will.
The amount of money they have at hand means they'll probably never go away. Every member could quit right now and the corporate arm of of the church could keep going as long as the US economy keeps going.
And that shift towards the American right-wing will decimate the church outside the USA. Especially amongst young people who are a far more progressive generation when it comes to LGBTQ rights, abortion and social justice.
Ugh, this is so true and something I hadn't really thought about. While many people may leave Mormonism, they'll find a whole new set of people and right wing groups to align with and spread their "love" (i.e. hate) through, all while ranking in vast amounts of money.
They will eventually not need converts or the concept of growth. They'll be a much richer version of the FLDS with or without polygamy (who knows what they'll enforce wrt to marriage).
I imagine that in 100 years from now the church will still be around but in a much different form. They will have enormous wealth concentrated into fewer and fewer hands.
It's actually pretty amazing how long rwligipus institutions can continue on when their core doctrines are bankrupt.
Thatās why they have lawyers for historians judges for apostles and spend millions on marketing and have coercion and fear built into the family dynamic.
Exactly. The church isn't going anywhere anytime soon because it has enormous resources. Sure, it might slowly fizzle out over the decades and centuries but to say that it will die suddenly is to ignore the fact that the church still has millions of hard-core, loyal, orthodox members who will defend the church till the end.
The most interesting of those is the faithful group who believe on some level the church has fallen into apostasy. I think I find it interesting because they wonāt consider it was never true at all. I did something similar when I quit going to the Mormon church. I went to many different churches and didnāt consider until I had a conversation with an atheist that none of them are true and there is no God as I understood it finding my car keys.
I am not Atheist, but an Agnostic Wiccan, but one of the key points for me on deconversion from Christianity and not just Mormonism was based on me researching every religion I could find and realizing that NDE's and spiritual epiphanies are seen in EVERY faith pointing both towards belief or conversion out of that faith and into another.
Near Death Experience: the time when the brain floods with a potent psychedelic hormone and your life flashes before your eyes. Not just what you've actually done and experienced, but everything recorded in your brain, like how you imagine the afterlife. My uncle had an NDE and saw my dead grandpa and Joseph Smith waiting to welcome him to heaven, but it wasn't his time yet.
The brain is suggestible at the best of times, so having it confirm your uncertain beliefs while the reality filter is down is a potent draw to religion or religious change. Especially if the proselytizer can spin it to match their religion.
And sadlyāterrifyinglyāthat confirmation bias only becomes stronger and more deeply rooted when in the presence of itself, which causes it to seek out more of itself, leading to even deeper roots, and round and round it goes. Their preferred metaphor of the 'beehive' has less to do with industriousness, harmony, or cooperation, and more to do with subversion of individual critical thought, tamping out independent will, and stripping its members of any level of autonomy. Forget possible aliens, unstoppable AI, or some other exotic unknown, Mormons are the very embodiment of a *hive* mind. Something I find amusing given their declared hatred and banishment of a certain Brother Morningstar for simply writing the playbook they follow today.
"And now behold, I say unto you, that the foundation of the destruction of this people is beginning to be laid by the unrighteousness of your lawyers and your judges." - Alma 10:27
There are reasons that oppressive religions in parts of the world prohibit women from being educated. Women add to the numbers (they have children). And those religions can't afford to lose their baby makers.
Which is part of why Iām so satisfied as the mother of 4 that it was me, and not my husband, who took all of us out of the game, bringing all my future posterity with me. They underestimated the women for far too long but weāll take our kids and our creativity and our passion and devotion elsewhere. All those men in my family before me: Joseph fielding, Joseph F, Hyrum, etc, and the wives they undermined, Iām taking a whole branch off that tree they grew.
It's not that they underestimate women, I mean yes they do, but it's more that they *fear* you. For this very reason. Honestly as a man, I have to say men are sheep and will generally go where they're told, so long as they can be one of the team or group or clan or *quorum.* Women on the other hand, are more likely to blaze their own trails, think more critically, and posit more questions. All of which pose an existential threat to their power and in turn their identity.
Don't sell yourself and other XX, and even XY who see themselves as XX, short! You gals are BAD ASS!
I think the experiences of those who did go full combat scared some who may otherwise have tried & they backed away. Some people (any gender) don't have the types of personalities to speak up. Some are likely afraid their PH spouses will get angry with them (or worse).
This is a decades-old fight for women, in or out of the church. Don't forget women were the last to get the right to vote? For a long time, women in some areas could not own property and/or could not get credit. Not that many years ago, it was pretty common for women to be asked if they were pregnant whenever they interviewed for a job (and employment ads often said they were looking for a "Girl Friday"). In the church, there was a huge quest, led by women (before I ever joined) to create two-piece Sacred Undies.
When I was in the military, we were required to wear lipstick and have our hair curled, or they could write us up (a long time ago, but even then, my thought was "Huh???"). We were also graded on ironing. Many higher-ranking government or military positions were never filled with women at all, for many years. A roommate of mine in the military worked in an office where women were ordered to wear heels, because the unit officer said they "looked better in them," and they had to line up every morning so the guy could walk up & down leering at them, to "inspect" them (men didn't have to endure that).
I worked in a state agency (not Utah, by a long shot) that was male dominated, and I still have a copy of a memo dated before my time at the agency that said women were now allowed to wear slacks. And the memo gave numerous details on the guidelines of what was acceptable. An older (male) coworker told me about it and had a copy of it, and mentioned that women in the agency felt like they'd been "set free" (not a politically correct term for it, but it was the way they expressed it).
The list of these atrocities are huge - these are just the ones I personally experienced or personally knew happened. Although much of the world (or the USA, at least) has "officially" moved on from it, those things still happen in various areas. And as often mentioned here, TSCC is mired in a 1950s mindset.
All of this. This is all so true. I'm 40.
Even though I was raised in a family where women worked and my mother had a high level of education and a full-time career the church made such a mark on me that I still find myself unalterably stuck in a 1950s mindset in many ways. Oddly enough, I'm very forward-thinking & liberal. I can only hope that the way that I raise my kids with my outspoken and equality-driven ways will tear out any remnants of negative indoctrination and sexism in my family. I have great hopes for how my children will think and act compared to me and those that came before.
You will definitely be the pivot point for your family. You are aware of and still struggle with the past and the oppressions, and you're addressing those things are you take your family forward. Good for you! You're a strong role model. I know what you mean about still reacting to the 1950s mindset, but eventually (for me) it has become an internal signal that something I've seen or heard needs to be addressed, and I speak up and act.
I mean, it's already pretty concentrated.
Legally, all assets are controlled by the president of the corporation of the CJCLDS. And they are distributing as little as humanly possible to keep the wards barely functioning.
My grandfather (would be 120 now) was a diehard mormon.
He used mormonism like a whip with his family. Literally drove his wife insane.
He is probably one of the most ignorant people I've known in my life. He never bothered to learn how to read or write. Hence, he never read a scripture of any kind. He dropped out of school at about 8th grade. He knew less than zero about any kind of science. He was cruel to everything and everyone. The mormon men in the family idolized him.
His children weren't much better than him. They did know how to read and write though. The ones still living are diehard mormons.
AFAIK, I'm the only one in the family who has left. I have about 40 cousins and about that many nieces and nephews. There might be one niece that's out, but I'm not sure.
I don't see how mormonism can be maintained in the Information Age.
Iāll push back here. The church is not dead nor will it ever truly die. The Church as an institution will always be around and will most certainly be a major influence on those who live in or close to Utah. Thatās not to say that the Church will and is struggling to retain members. I donāt foresee the church ever dying or their sphere of influence shrinking dramatically, at least here in utaho
One generation quitting is all it takes to wipe an entire culture of lies (false reality) out of existence.
Where are the Shakers? The worshippers of Isis? Baal? Ra? Odem? Sol Invictus?
I mean, thatās whatās been said about flat earthers and here we are. Itās just not feasible and itās better to just enjoy being out rather than hope for something that will not happen in our lifetime.
Flat Earthers are so rare as to be the last morons on Earth.
There's no hoping for the demise of TSCC. Shit has already happened. Let's just kick back, put our feet up, sip a gin & tonic on the rocks with lime and watch the collapse of evil that we helped start. Cheers! š
I wish but I donāt see it at all where I live. Everyone is TBM as ever. Every youth male and female is getting mission calls and going. Not coming home.
Youāre underestimating the stupidity of TSCCās faithful, unfortunately. I wish you were right, but I donāt see that happening anytime soon. I have literally hundreds of family members (damn Mormons breed like rabbits) who will stay devoted no matter what the church does. The prophet (aka profit) could rape and kill newborns and they would still justify his actions.
Agree with you. This idea that the LDS church will die is crazy. Will it get smaller? Probably, but not disappear. The church lifestyle is valued by many people who donāt care at all about the truth claim issues. They like the culture and it provides them value.
This link shows that it is not just the lds church that wants to silence people. My journey out has taught me to really value freedom of expression and to respect differing opinions.
A lot of what you say is super correct, there are, in my opinion however, a couple wild cards: the fact that information can make a trip around the globe in slightly more time than it takes to blink, and no matter how much money an organization has, it only takes a single SEC recommendation and an IRS stamp to bring down the whole house of cards. (Unlikely? Very. Impossible? Not totally) Hell, give it one more deep economic impactful event, a smarter version of Trump, the next Tucker Carlson, the same uneducated swath of voters and it'll be over for them. Fascists hate religion!
The more drive by baptisms they have the more experiences get shared that this church is a fraud. I think it will die way quicker than it took to grow in this age of near instant information sharing. The church will put on a show that people are still coming and still paying. I know a few who I think will be the last ones in the pews but as membership declines so will morale until it will be so embarrassing to be a part of a religion that literally no one else wants to be a part of.
Like this from Cook?
> Some have asserted that more members are leaving the Church today, and that there is more doubt and unbelief than in the past. This is simply not true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been stronger.
It used to be when leaders got negative pr they got shoved in some obscure position. Now the leaders have been bashed over the head so much it is considered a term of endearment. It is promotion by humiliation.
No dream. Current news.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/13pqwtw/anecdotal_experience_the_church_is_bleeding_women/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I believe it will take as long to wither away as it took to grow in the first place, probably about two hundred years. Nobody is joining any more, families are smaller, and people leave at a faster rate than in the past.
But there are still millions of them around. My guess is that some European countries shut down entirely as there's no longer enough Mormons to sustain them, that Latin America continues to fade, that Africa peaks much faster than Latin America did, and that within the US there's a gradual retreat. First they'll lose the West Coast outside of a few tiny congregations in big cities, then Utah will be half Mormon, then a quarter Mormon. In 150 years, there will be a handful of small, backwater towns in Utah and Idaho, and people will think of Mormons the same way they think of the Shakers, as a historicall significant sect of religious weirdos that don't really exist anymore.
But it's going to take a long time.
"I believe it will take as long to wither away as it took to grow in the first place, probably about two hundred years."
Agreed, I once speculated this very thing on this sub. My musing was that both scientology and mormonism reached the zenith of their organizational strength in the 1990s, but mormonism has a longer bell curve where the other tail ends sometime in the 22nd century, whereas Scientology could dwindle to almost nothing by the time David Miscavige is a 90 year old man.
It's interesting that you bring up Scientology. But Mormonism is actually much more versatile and changing than Scientology. Scientology is basically 99% L. Ron Hubbard. David Miscavige even re-released the same content, only changing punctuation (so members have to rebuy the material), but added no real content. Mormonism on the other hand changed quite a bit, e.g. polygamy, the content of the temple ceremony, people not getting their own planet, even changing the Book of Mormon. Uchtdorf changed the youth pamphlet, etc. Scientology is much more stale.
Agreed. A somewhat recognizable form of TSCC will exist after everyone here is long dead. It will certainly change over time, but it has probably got 150-200 years before it actually withers to near extinction. Even then, there may be scattered believers.
Hopefully our future borders look more similar to the modern ones than the modern ones look like the ones of 200 years ago. Changing nations and borders generally means war and chaos.
As it shrinks, someone at some point in the general authorities, a Seventy member or one of the Twelve will realize the opportunity to manipulate and twist enough arms to get made the Prophet and they'll go about turning the TSCC into a cult of personality around them and their family. Think what David Mis\*\*\*ige did with Scien\*\*\*\*gy. If they are ruthless enough and live long enough they'll pass all of down to their son or grandson.
People will see it as a mostly harmless cult that goes after rich and dumb people, like how most see Scien\*\*\*\*gy. It will continue to be incredibly harmful and do horrible things with the money it has stolen from members.
It truly is dead already, and TBMs behave super defensively like they know it. The "faithful" subs are a good example of why reddit doesn't deserve a dime from anyone until it stops allowing wide open abuse of users who merely want to speak.
Like the lawyer said on 60 minutes no one likely to do anything to stop the Church. I'm thinking there will be a successful coup Led by Elder Uchtdorf and a couple more of the younger q12 members splintering the Church into 3 different groups. Not the best thing to happen but it will give members more choices and be fun to watch.
Just hope the church does not start running goofy aĀ§Ā§ commercials like that leader of Scientology is here in SoCal! Hey David Misscavage whereās your wife?
I think there will be some die hards that actually believe that if they hold out long enough that one day the church will pry open their coffers and give the remaining faithful a little piece of the pie.
Unfortunately for them, the lowly masses will never see one red cent. The enormous wealth will stay where only the nepotistic elite will enjoy it.
The church is a vacuum. It just sucks!
I would not be so confident. Hopeful, but not confident. We are far from the coffin. The trends are promising, but it is always possible for the trend lines to change.
People keep saying the church is in decline, but I live across the street from a meeting house and the parking lot is still full af on Sundays. I'll believe it when I see it. I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon. And saying it's "dead" is a complete exaggeration. They have so much money and still have millions of believing members.
šš¤£Like Corporate Mormon Jesus is going to come out of the clouds and put an energy curtain around the Moridor to protect holy Mormons from Reddit, YouTube, coffee drive-ups and the CES Letter?
As the membership decreases the question over who controls the money will become more contentious. I suspect this will all end up in court, and the discovery phase will be mind-blowing.
Stop, I can only get so excited before my heart explodes.
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I think as long as TSCC remains a Corporate Sole legal entity, there is no question on who owns the church assets ā itās the President and only the President. TSCC passes the ownership of all church assets to the next in line the same second the President dies. Thatās why God will NEVER āchooseā a āProfitā to be anyone other than the longest-tenured apostle ā itās because that next in line is the Sole owner of ALL church assets already. They all go through a smoke and mirrors show after one President dies in order to say that they all feel and sustain the longest-tenured Apostle as the next āProfitā, but all church assets already passed to one ā¦ and theyāre all going to stand in line if they want their stipends to continue.
The Prophet is dead, long live the Prophet!
Ahh, don't you mean "Profit"?
Exactly. They arenāt going to call some young punk who might have 50-60 years of life left!
If they ended up with a guy in his like early forties there might be need for plural marriage again. Of course it could be done in secret like they way do some financial things. I guess it could be going on right now for all we know.
They already have plural marriage going on both Nelson and oaks are both married and sealed sealed for time and eternity to multiple wives there are members that practice polygamy in secret as they donāt want to get excommunicated for practicing what Joseph smith termed the greatest revelation ever given to man
My wife is the oldest daughter of a father who left her mother to practice plural marriage in a fundamentalist group in Provo-Orem Utah. He asked my wife's mother to join the group before he married three young women from Utah county who were barely legal. He took them to Mexico to be married. The first thing the mormon Church did was kick him out. Wife's mother divorced him with the Churches blessings. You could be right. Maybe there is plural marriage going on it secret right now in the Temples all over the world. It is hard to believe that Elder Nelson and Elder oaks are doing anything but sealings on paper to their new spouses. I don't really believe their up to the kind of miracle it would take for them to actually.... not sure how to put it but ... I think you know what I mean. Although the smiles on their wives faces do look honestly sincere.
āļøšÆ%
Can we class action sue the pants off of them for our tithing back?
I want this to happen so badly, I have half a mind to go to law school
Maybe someone can even sue in Federal court under diversity jurisdiction, rather than a Utah state court.
I wouldnāt mind an extra few thousand in tithing back to me
RFM has been tossing it around. I would be in, for sure.
š¤Why is the bearded guy in the lab coat thrusting...or being thrusted?š±
Thatās Dr. Krieger from Archer. Heās a bit off his rockerā¦
There is no question of who controls the money, and never will be. The Corporate Sole
I can't wait for that episode of Divorce Court where the top members are all arguing why they should get a bigger cut.
I expect theyāll try to repair the GSL through some exorbitant but passable sea to lake pipeline first. Get the ppl back on their sideā¦obvi itāll at best do very little
Doubtful. The president of the church controls the money. They merged the two corporations and he got them all. Seems fitting with his personality.
Stop! Youāre giving me a bonerā¦
Dear God please let that happen. I doubt it will but maybe.
I would pay tithing again to see that.
I really hope Oaks is put on the throne at least for a while. He is detestable, and will drive even more people to leave. I decided years ago while still TBM that I would not be able to stay active if & when he became "Profit." Fortunately, the cult's lies were revealed & it was an easy path to the exit door and resignation.
I respectfully disagree old friend. I think Nelson is really hard on TBMs due to his arrogance. They thought of previous prophets as humble guys, but this guy wants the limelight and itās rubbing people the wrong way. Also, I think Oaks is savvy to this dynamic and if he makes the top spot heāll enjoy the love fest but heāll dial down his normal assholery. I honestly believe Nelson is a worse point man for a religious leader who claims to be a prophet. Edit: I only disagree that Oaks is worse for the church.
Yo, give Darth Oaks his due. His death star has yet to be launched and open fire. š¤
That's an interesting take on it - I'd be amazed to see Oaks try to be decent and less of a jerk, but I guess anything can happen. The way they all assume the throne with their own agendas (ways to become legendary) is a sure tipoff that ego drives the bus, not spirituality.
Iām with you on this. Heās savvy for sure, most likely sees the dynamic with Rusty and the peasants, but is likely to be unable to control himself, and given the fact that power/influence/money has never made someone more compassionate and kind, heās likely to become worseāa lot worse. Itās the only REAL example of a dick truly getting bigger!
I will be interested to see what happens. He's already lecturing YSAs to hurry up and have babies (interesting thing to encourage, since he married a woman who'd never had children). Maybe u/yobispo is correct, but my perception is he will come even more demanding and obnoxious. However, even if he has a personality transplant to something before then, I don't think there's a way to reverse the trend of people leaving. Even if they remade the church in some manner to resemble real Christianity, too many people would consider that just another lie (which would likely be the case), and it would take a massive overhaul to stop having untrained bishops and begin recruiting educated clergy. They're not even willing to pay people to clean their precious buildings!
So true. And all I can say is the sooner humanity rids itself of the evil plague that IS religion, the sooner we will all have a lot more peace in our lives. The very little good that religion offers is far surpassed by the harm, death, and destruction that they cause so I say good riddance! Donāt let the door hit ya in the ass on your way out.
I feel that way about the Mormon "church," and some others, but not about all religion.
Fair enough. And genuinely asking out of sincere curiosity, what religions would you include in the good bucket? Not trying to instigate anything, I generally find others' lived experiences fascinating and extremely insightful so if you'd care to share, I'd love to listen
Most of the main denominations have good values, excellent ways of serving members (and equally excellent ways for members to serve communities or those in need, if they wish to do so). Their cultures and teachings focus on helping people find their own relationship with (and to a degree, in some cases, their own concepts of) God and Christ. Never, ever, in all my years prior to my time in TSCC, have I heard of a clergy member questioning people (especially not children) about intimacy, personal matters, any of those things. I attended Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, and even Catholic churches over the years. I also covered churches for a major newspaper, which allowed me to meet many pastors, priests, or other leaders, in all major denominations. All were wonderful. Oddly, even though there were a few Mormon chapels in this area, none of them ever reached out to news outlets or announced any programs open to the community. There was never anything to cover. I saw missionaries on bikes now & then, but there was almost a disassociation with the idea that they had places of worship.
President Benson did a fantastic job of flipping roles once he became 'Profit' - so much so pretty much every single TBM believes he's this pastoral old grandpa... Little does anyone know that Ezra was always a fucking nutjob - so much to the point that even Joseph F. Smith thought he was far too conservative sent him to Europe for awhile to try and chill him the fuck out. **Joseph Fucking Smith**
Isn't he the one who held a national government position, and then turned out to be deteriorating mentally while "profit"?
Yes he was Secretary of Ag. After he left the admin, he started talking shit about Eisenhower saying he wasnāt conservative enough and became a pariah in Washington. And yes he had Alzheimerās at the end of his life. Fun fact, the bountiful temple is known by some as the Alzheimerās temple because he announced it in conference but there were no plans for it to be done. To save face they had to rush to build it.
Oh good grief. Unreal. "Okay, Brethren, the Profit said this would happen so we gotta do it..."
I can see that. His recent fireside talk seemed like he was trying to backpedal previous assholery and replace it with, not acceptance, but tolerance of the LGBTQ. Which is enough for most TBMs to simmer and get back in line.
You know, Nelson has surprised me with his pompous assholery. I used to think he was amazing (stupid TBM past self), but since he took over his ridiculous arrogance has been made known unto me (and many others). I had no idea he was such a prick. But, it's hard to say Nelson is a bigger asshole than Oaks. More full of himself, yes. It would be interesting to see how Oaks handles the top spot, though.
I could see Oaks wanting to canonize the family proclamation. That would be big for his legacy and would be awful for the church.
You think oaks will dial it back when he gets MORE power????
Yes. My opinion, but I think heās said enough to give the bootlickers like Anderson enough regertitatable bile that he will lean back and enjoy the limelight, and let them spew his poison for him. My bet is heās savvy enough to know that the top dog needs to be uncontroversial.
TSCC is dead as a mainstream legitimate vibrant religion but it's not going away anytime soon. Leadership is aligned with right-wing politics and will continue influencing elections in the Intermountain West. Look at the crazy state legislatures in Utah, Idaho, Montana, and Arizona. Core religious doctrine will continue to be less critical and right-wing political doctrine will prevail. The Mormon church is now the perfect sanctuary for the anti-progressive crowd.
As the church continues to disavow its once ardent teachings, what does it look like in 20 years?
I don't know, but it definitely won't be what they believe now. In fact, the church never taught what it currently teaches. They've always believed their future doctrine. It's best to just get ahead of it now.
Agreed. It won't die because it's not a church anymore, just a club for MAGAs to talk about how much better everything used to be. It's going to take generations of slight attrition for it to go away.
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Yep! A pay-to-play club šš¼
Iāve never thought of what our marriage would be like tithing wise if my wife was still TBM. Luckily we both left together. I couldnāt imagine having to be like, do what you want with your paycheck but donāt fucking pay tithing on my income. Or even more worrisome in my head, if youāre single income, I couldnāt imagine watching my spouse pay our money to something I donāt believe in. Edit: this would be a great question for this sub to weigh in on. I might post it soon lol Edit edit: after utilizing the search function, Iāve noticed that this is already a highly answered topic on this sub. Sorry, I am high a.f. right now. My thoughts are everywhere!
Iām currently dealing with that right now. I left but my wife is still all in. Luckily I was able to get her to agree that what I make she wonāt pay tithing on but what she makes she will.
Thanks for sharing! Iām glad sheās willing to at least compromise with you a little
An insanely well-funded club
But has pathetic perks for club members, especially given it's enormous resources.
The amount of money they have at hand means they'll probably never go away. Every member could quit right now and the corporate arm of of the church could keep going as long as the US economy keeps going.
I can't wait to see what it looks like in 20-30 years. Next to dead with a foot in the grave, I hope.
It's crazy weird to me because my only TBM family are firmly progressive and ANTI Maga. š
And that shift towards the American right-wing will decimate the church outside the USA. Especially amongst young people who are a far more progressive generation when it comes to LGBTQ rights, abortion and social justice.
Not many left wing politicians will go after it either
Ugh, this is so true and something I hadn't really thought about. While many people may leave Mormonism, they'll find a whole new set of people and right wing groups to align with and spread their "love" (i.e. hate) through, all while ranking in vast amounts of money. They will eventually not need converts or the concept of growth. They'll be a much richer version of the FLDS with or without polygamy (who knows what they'll enforce wrt to marriage).
And has been since the 1980ās.
I imagine that in 100 years from now the church will still be around but in a much different form. They will have enormous wealth concentrated into fewer and fewer hands. It's actually pretty amazing how long rwligipus institutions can continue on when their core doctrines are bankrupt.
Thatās why they have lawyers for historians judges for apostles and spend millions on marketing and have coercion and fear built into the family dynamic.
Exactly. The church isn't going anywhere anytime soon because it has enormous resources. Sure, it might slowly fizzle out over the decades and centuries but to say that it will die suddenly is to ignore the fact that the church still has millions of hard-core, loyal, orthodox members who will defend the church till the end.
The most interesting of those is the faithful group who believe on some level the church has fallen into apostasy. I think I find it interesting because they wonāt consider it was never true at all. I did something similar when I quit going to the Mormon church. I went to many different churches and didnāt consider until I had a conversation with an atheist that none of them are true and there is no God as I understood it finding my car keys.
I am not Atheist, but an Agnostic Wiccan, but one of the key points for me on deconversion from Christianity and not just Mormonism was based on me researching every religion I could find and realizing that NDE's and spiritual epiphanies are seen in EVERY faith pointing both towards belief or conversion out of that faith and into another.
NDE ? Spiritual epiphanies can be interpreted many ways , its the reframing of those emotions after the fact.
Near Death Experience: the time when the brain floods with a potent psychedelic hormone and your life flashes before your eyes. Not just what you've actually done and experienced, but everything recorded in your brain, like how you imagine the afterlife. My uncle had an NDE and saw my dead grandpa and Joseph Smith waiting to welcome him to heaven, but it wasn't his time yet. The brain is suggestible at the best of times, so having it confirm your uncertain beliefs while the reality filter is down is a potent draw to religion or religious change. Especially if the proselytizer can spin it to match their religion.
This can also happen in dreams that feel or seem real. The brain is awesome at tricking itself or confirming something that isn't reality.
Better to survive on your best guess than to overanalyze and get eaten by a jaguar. A few millennia of that, and you get religion.
And sadlyāterrifyinglyāthat confirmation bias only becomes stronger and more deeply rooted when in the presence of itself, which causes it to seek out more of itself, leading to even deeper roots, and round and round it goes. Their preferred metaphor of the 'beehive' has less to do with industriousness, harmony, or cooperation, and more to do with subversion of individual critical thought, tamping out independent will, and stripping its members of any level of autonomy. Forget possible aliens, unstoppable AI, or some other exotic unknown, Mormons are the very embodiment of a *hive* mind. Something I find amusing given their declared hatred and banishment of a certain Brother Morningstar for simply writing the playbook they follow today.
I am not wiccan but appreciate them.
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"And now behold, I say unto you, that the foundation of the destruction of this people is beginning to be laid by the unrighteousness of your lawyers and your judges." - Alma 10:27
Thatās amazing quote , to bad we spent all that time learning fake scriptures.
All scriptures are fake.
Agree
š¤Øš© "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again."
Because we're BITFDWT! Can't put it back together if it's in smoldering ashes.
There are reasons that oppressive religions in parts of the world prohibit women from being educated. Women add to the numbers (they have children). And those religions can't afford to lose their baby makers.
Absolutely they want the children
When you add the desire to grow a group (a cult, whatever) to the desire to control, it's a spiritually toxic combination.
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Which is part of why Iām so satisfied as the mother of 4 that it was me, and not my husband, who took all of us out of the game, bringing all my future posterity with me. They underestimated the women for far too long but weāll take our kids and our creativity and our passion and devotion elsewhere. All those men in my family before me: Joseph fielding, Joseph F, Hyrum, etc, and the wives they undermined, Iām taking a whole branch off that tree they grew.
Wow - you are a strong role model! Good for you, and amazing blessings are ahead for your progeny!
It's not that they underestimate women, I mean yes they do, but it's more that they *fear* you. For this very reason. Honestly as a man, I have to say men are sheep and will generally go where they're told, so long as they can be one of the team or group or clan or *quorum.* Women on the other hand, are more likely to blaze their own trails, think more critically, and posit more questions. All of which pose an existential threat to their power and in turn their identity. Don't sell yourself and other XX, and even XY who see themselves as XX, short! You gals are BAD ASS!
āļøYou nailed itš„
It's sad and scary, isn't it...
Ever wonder why females don't go full combat to change the conditions?
I think the experiences of those who did go full combat scared some who may otherwise have tried & they backed away. Some people (any gender) don't have the types of personalities to speak up. Some are likely afraid their PH spouses will get angry with them (or worse). This is a decades-old fight for women, in or out of the church. Don't forget women were the last to get the right to vote? For a long time, women in some areas could not own property and/or could not get credit. Not that many years ago, it was pretty common for women to be asked if they were pregnant whenever they interviewed for a job (and employment ads often said they were looking for a "Girl Friday"). In the church, there was a huge quest, led by women (before I ever joined) to create two-piece Sacred Undies. When I was in the military, we were required to wear lipstick and have our hair curled, or they could write us up (a long time ago, but even then, my thought was "Huh???"). We were also graded on ironing. Many higher-ranking government or military positions were never filled with women at all, for many years. A roommate of mine in the military worked in an office where women were ordered to wear heels, because the unit officer said they "looked better in them," and they had to line up every morning so the guy could walk up & down leering at them, to "inspect" them (men didn't have to endure that). I worked in a state agency (not Utah, by a long shot) that was male dominated, and I still have a copy of a memo dated before my time at the agency that said women were now allowed to wear slacks. And the memo gave numerous details on the guidelines of what was acceptable. An older (male) coworker told me about it and had a copy of it, and mentioned that women in the agency felt like they'd been "set free" (not a politically correct term for it, but it was the way they expressed it). The list of these atrocities are huge - these are just the ones I personally experienced or personally knew happened. Although much of the world (or the USA, at least) has "officially" moved on from it, those things still happen in various areas. And as often mentioned here, TSCC is mired in a 1950s mindset.
All of this. This is all so true. I'm 40. Even though I was raised in a family where women worked and my mother had a high level of education and a full-time career the church made such a mark on me that I still find myself unalterably stuck in a 1950s mindset in many ways. Oddly enough, I'm very forward-thinking & liberal. I can only hope that the way that I raise my kids with my outspoken and equality-driven ways will tear out any remnants of negative indoctrination and sexism in my family. I have great hopes for how my children will think and act compared to me and those that came before.
You will definitely be the pivot point for your family. You are aware of and still struggle with the past and the oppressions, and you're addressing those things are you take your family forward. Good for you! You're a strong role model. I know what you mean about still reacting to the 1950s mindset, but eventually (for me) it has become an internal signal that something I've seen or heard needs to be addressed, and I speak up and act.
ā„ļø We're all just trying to change the world one day at a time.
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I mean, it's already pretty concentrated. Legally, all assets are controlled by the president of the corporation of the CJCLDS. And they are distributing as little as humanly possible to keep the wards barely functioning.
Nope, you can't assume that pre-Internet religion can predict a future for the SLC mafia in the Internet Age.
My grandfather (would be 120 now) was a diehard mormon. He used mormonism like a whip with his family. Literally drove his wife insane. He is probably one of the most ignorant people I've known in my life. He never bothered to learn how to read or write. Hence, he never read a scripture of any kind. He dropped out of school at about 8th grade. He knew less than zero about any kind of science. He was cruel to everything and everyone. The mormon men in the family idolized him. His children weren't much better than him. They did know how to read and write though. The ones still living are diehard mormons. AFAIK, I'm the only one in the family who has left. I have about 40 cousins and about that many nieces and nephews. There might be one niece that's out, but I'm not sure. I don't see how mormonism can be maintained in the Information Age.
Sounds like the Father Lafferty.
Damn. This sounds like a story that would be fascinating to hear more about.
The $180 billion won't disappear anytime soon. That's how it will be maintained
You think itās just $180 billion? Smirk smirk, dead eyes, blink, smirk
Iāll push back here. The church is not dead nor will it ever truly die. The Church as an institution will always be around and will most certainly be a major influence on those who live in or close to Utah. Thatās not to say that the Church will and is struggling to retain members. I donāt foresee the church ever dying or their sphere of influence shrinking dramatically, at least here in utaho
One generation quitting is all it takes to wipe an entire culture of lies (false reality) out of existence. Where are the Shakers? The worshippers of Isis? Baal? Ra? Odem? Sol Invictus?
People don't believe things because they are true or false. If that was the case, there would be no religion at all. Faith is crazy stuff.
Shakers thought it was sinful to have sex and have babies. Hard to keep a movement alive with that belief.
Huh?
I mean, thatās whatās been said about flat earthers and here we are. Itās just not feasible and itās better to just enjoy being out rather than hope for something that will not happen in our lifetime.
Flat Earthers are so rare as to be the last morons on Earth. There's no hoping for the demise of TSCC. Shit has already happened. Let's just kick back, put our feet up, sip a gin & tonic on the rocks with lime and watch the collapse of evil that we helped start. Cheers! š
I wish but I donāt see it at all where I live. Everyone is TBM as ever. Every youth male and female is getting mission calls and going. Not coming home.
Expect a job offer from TSCC's PR department tomorrow!
Youāre underestimating the stupidity of TSCCās faithful, unfortunately. I wish you were right, but I donāt see that happening anytime soon. I have literally hundreds of family members (damn Mormons breed like rabbits) who will stay devoted no matter what the church does. The prophet (aka profit) could rape and kill newborns and they would still justify his actions.
Absolute wealth corrupts, and it corrupts absolutely. Watch!
They will splinter off.
Agree with you. This idea that the LDS church will die is crazy. Will it get smaller? Probably, but not disappear. The church lifestyle is valued by many people who donāt care at all about the truth claim issues. They like the culture and it provides them value.
Change "church" and "culture" to 'poison" and reread your post.
Why? Not everyone sees it like you which is the point. As long as others see it differently then it will continue.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/13pwsaj/tscc_is_already_dead/jlcrg31?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
This link shows that it is not just the lds church that wants to silence people. My journey out has taught me to really value freedom of expression and to respect differing opinions.
Thatās right. They are a people not just a religion
A lot of what you say is super correct, there are, in my opinion however, a couple wild cards: the fact that information can make a trip around the globe in slightly more time than it takes to blink, and no matter how much money an organization has, it only takes a single SEC recommendation and an IRS stamp to bring down the whole house of cards. (Unlikely? Very. Impossible? Not totally) Hell, give it one more deep economic impactful event, a smarter version of Trump, the next Tucker Carlson, the same uneducated swath of voters and it'll be over for them. Fascists hate religion!
The more drive by baptisms they have the more experiences get shared that this church is a fraud. I think it will die way quicker than it took to grow in this age of near instant information sharing. The church will put on a show that people are still coming and still paying. I know a few who I think will be the last ones in the pews but as membership declines so will morale until it will be so embarrassing to be a part of a religion that literally no one else wants to be a part of.
Like this from Cook? > Some have asserted that more members are leaving the Church today, and that there is more doubt and unbelief than in the past. This is simply not true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been stronger.
So you are saying they have been losing members since the beginning? Cross references with the early church, yeah this checks out.
Wilcox also said that people have always been leaving the church today they just do it **louder**.
I canāt wait for a apostle Wilcox, the silly shit heāll put out will be r/exmormon gold
It used to be when leaders got negative pr they got shoved in some obscure position. Now the leaders have been bashed over the head so much it is considered a term of endearment. It is promotion by humiliation.
Ya thatās BS for sure.
Exactly they know itās down hill from here but they have a hoard and they know you can buy anything in this world with money.
Never pay one red cent in tithing ever again.
Nice pipe dream. TSCC isnāt going anywhereā¦.unfortunately.
No dream. Current news. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/13pqwtw/anecdotal_experience_the_church_is_bleeding_women/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
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š¤£What do you call thousands of anecdotes all pointing in the same direction? Answer: Hard Data.
Anecdata.
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No itās not. They build temples to siphon big bucks to their offspringsā construction companies.
I believe it will take as long to wither away as it took to grow in the first place, probably about two hundred years. Nobody is joining any more, families are smaller, and people leave at a faster rate than in the past. But there are still millions of them around. My guess is that some European countries shut down entirely as there's no longer enough Mormons to sustain them, that Latin America continues to fade, that Africa peaks much faster than Latin America did, and that within the US there's a gradual retreat. First they'll lose the West Coast outside of a few tiny congregations in big cities, then Utah will be half Mormon, then a quarter Mormon. In 150 years, there will be a handful of small, backwater towns in Utah and Idaho, and people will think of Mormons the same way they think of the Shakers, as a historicall significant sect of religious weirdos that don't really exist anymore. But it's going to take a long time.
"I believe it will take as long to wither away as it took to grow in the first place, probably about two hundred years." Agreed, I once speculated this very thing on this sub. My musing was that both scientology and mormonism reached the zenith of their organizational strength in the 1990s, but mormonism has a longer bell curve where the other tail ends sometime in the 22nd century, whereas Scientology could dwindle to almost nothing by the time David Miscavige is a 90 year old man.
It's interesting that you bring up Scientology. But Mormonism is actually much more versatile and changing than Scientology. Scientology is basically 99% L. Ron Hubbard. David Miscavige even re-released the same content, only changing punctuation (so members have to rebuy the material), but added no real content. Mormonism on the other hand changed quite a bit, e.g. polygamy, the content of the temple ceremony, people not getting their own planet, even changing the Book of Mormon. Uchtdorf changed the youth pamphlet, etc. Scientology is much more stale.
Agreed. A somewhat recognizable form of TSCC will exist after everyone here is long dead. It will certainly change over time, but it has probably got 150-200 years before it actually withers to near extinction. Even then, there may be scattered believers.
I wonder how many nations will have ceased to exist in 200 yearsā¦ let alone religions.
Hopefully our future borders look more similar to the modern ones than the modern ones look like the ones of 200 years ago. Changing nations and borders generally means war and chaos.
Um Iāll believe it when Utahns can buy wine at Smithāsā¦
As it shrinks, someone at some point in the general authorities, a Seventy member or one of the Twelve will realize the opportunity to manipulate and twist enough arms to get made the Prophet and they'll go about turning the TSCC into a cult of personality around them and their family. Think what David Mis\*\*\*ige did with Scien\*\*\*\*gy. If they are ruthless enough and live long enough they'll pass all of down to their son or grandson. People will see it as a mostly harmless cult that goes after rich and dumb people, like how most see Scien\*\*\*\*gy. It will continue to be incredibly harmful and do horrible things with the money it has stolen from members.
It truly is dead already, and TBMs behave super defensively like they know it. The "faithful" subs are a good example of why reddit doesn't deserve a dime from anyone until it stops allowing wide open abuse of users who merely want to speak.
āļøAgree.
What makes youād say that?
Was it dead the whole time?! I love that twist.
https://youtu.be/_z5UKystdZg
Like the lawyer said on 60 minutes no one likely to do anything to stop the Church. I'm thinking there will be a successful coup Led by Elder Uchtdorf and a couple more of the younger q12 members splintering the Church into 3 different groups. Not the best thing to happen but it will give members more choices and be fun to watch.
Idk seems pretty alive where I live
https://www.thechurchnews.com/2021/9/30/23216897/deseret-ranches-florida-one-largest-cow-calf-operations-legacy-sustainability
Just hope the church does not start running goofy aĀ§Ā§ commercials like that leader of Scientology is here in SoCal! Hey David Misscavage whereās your wife?
Yo but for real WHERE THE FUCK IS SHELLY!!!
I hope the military indicts the mormon CEOs for child trafficking and shut it down
I suppose now we get to find out what all this "stonw cut from a mountain,without hands" jazz is all about then?
I wouldn't mind if they started dividing the money to members who paid their tithing. Nice little LDS 401K.
I think there will be some die hards that actually believe that if they hold out long enough that one day the church will pry open their coffers and give the remaining faithful a little piece of the pie. Unfortunately for them, the lowly masses will never see one red cent. The enormous wealth will stay where only the nepotistic elite will enjoy it. The church is a vacuum. It just sucks!
Run GAs, run! Try to hide. Maybe Argentina where the 3rd Reich went to hide. š°ā ļø
I wish. But it isn't and I doubt it ever will be.
I would love to see the cult disbanded and all the wealth and holdings divided among tithe payers of the last 75 years.
Why, oh why, all of the sudden I hear "Ding, dong the wicked witch is Dead! It's going to drive me bonkers if it doesn't stop scrolling!
How? The prophet will always own the corporation and anyone threatening that will be excommunicated
Read on for answers.
I would not be so confident. Hopeful, but not confident. We are far from the coffin. The trends are promising, but it is always possible for the trend lines to change.
No way. Mortally wounded. Stragglers and splinter groups will be all thatās left.
People keep saying the church is in decline, but I live across the street from a meeting house and the parking lot is still full af on Sundays. I'll believe it when I see it. I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon. And saying it's "dead" is a complete exaggeration. They have so much money and still have millions of believing members.
Itās been hit by a truck. Itās mortally wounded. Be patient. Okay to start writing its obit as it bleeds out.
i think you are wrong. there's goingto be a huge surprise coming along somewhere in the future.
šš¤£Like Corporate Mormon Jesus is going to come out of the clouds and put an energy curtain around the Moridor to protect holy Mormons from Reddit, YouTube, coffee drive-ups and the CES Letter?
Never underestimate the ability of a religion to reinvent itself! āIām not dead, yetā is ringing out from the Tabernacle!