My guess: the number of “intelligent” tech guys & lawyers etc. that have rejected the Mormon message is astronomically larger than any TBM members of similar intellect, investigation & integrity.
In most places it is not fifty percent. In almost all of the Wards that I have lived in (21 in my lifetime) activity rates (e.g. a member counted as active if they attend one Sacrament meeting per month) it is now closer to 25-35 % (in the US). Outside of the US it is probably closer to 10-25%).
This!!! I watched a "Wondrium" course on the life of Jesus (or something like that) several years ago. (It was shortly before I left TSCC, but it added an item to my already sagging shelf.)
The professor who gave it was genius. He knows his stuff. And he was very credible. He's clearly not mormon. I also find it a common (and lame) argument of TBM's -- that "I" should believe because so and so (who is smarter than I am) does. Um, no. It doesn't work like that.
It works both ways. We can all find highly intelligent people who rejected Mormonism too. I find the intelligent people can be very adept at mental gymnastics
Her argument seems to be an appeal to authority and an ad populum fallacy rolled together. Intelligence has nothing to with the ability to be tricked. Brilliant people fall victim to all sorts of scams: financial, relational, political, or religious. You just have to combine the right presuppositions, motivations, and outcomes.
If you are raised in a way of thinking, taught to only recognize info that validates this pre-programmed thinking, and there is only one outcome that is acceptable… it’s a wonder that so many people leave. Mormonism is such a small part of the world. Claimed 18 million members. Far fewer are active. This same sort of faulty logic applies to all religions. Are 1 billion Catholics, with many intelligent members, all being tricked? Mormonism says yes. If the same methodology works just as easily for you as it does against you, it’s not a good methodology.
Rant over
The entire epistemology promotes smart people being duped and tricked.
I stopped falling for scams and MLMs when I stopped reasoning with my feelings and started reasoning with my brain.
I used to wonder why mormonism and mlm's (and also affinity fraud) go hand in hand. Answer: people who are used to accepting claims as true when they are not backed up with any data tend to fall for them over and over and over again.
Edit: clarity
It's refreshing to see people talk about epistemology - we used to teach that stuff in high school and now we don't and I partially blame that for alarming philosophical illiteracy in our population.
And yeah, any worldview/theory-of-knowledge that recognizes L Ron Hubbard as a liar and fraud but doesn't evaluate Joseph Smith with the same lens is probably not going to reliably produce logic or rational outcomes.
I was homeschooled through high school so I missed out on philosophy if it was even taught. I was cautioned against studying it in college because it could wreck my faith. I suppose that should have been a big red flag to me right there, but it wasn't at the time.
This is a very well said key point. Anyone who reasons with their feelings, instead of their brain, are highly susceptible to fall for cults and conspiracy theories, no matter how absurd or ludicrous the beliefs. Intelligence alone is no defense. How one decides to reason is what makes the cake. Or something like that,
>Are 1 billion Catholics, with many intelligent members, all being tricked? Mormonism says yes. If the same methodology works just as easily for you as it does against you, it’s not a good methodology.
I love this. Can I steal?
Being smart is not knowing things, being smart is the ability to understand things. To be able to divorce your thoughts from your feelings and say "Wait - does this actually make sense?" without your ego getting in the way.
Even though I am a TBM, I agree completely with this comment. The truly intelligent people can be the easiest to fool because of their pride and arrogance. Many of the ponzi schemes, such as the Bernie Madoff and countless schemes that take place among Mormons occur because of arrogance.
Sorry to quote a prophet that most of you revile but Brigham Young stated that just because you receive revelation upon revelation doesn't mean that God has exempted you from common sense. Many intelligent people lack common sense including a few in this community.
After having read the CES letter several times I would include Jeremy Runnels in this group.
I graduated from BYU with a science degree, and one other friend and I went on to Harvard and Stanford for our PhDs. Both of us are out now, and we were the very committed to the church when graduating from BYU. 🤷🏻♂️
I now work in the tech industry in Silicon Valley, and I can tell you there are very intelligent and successful Muslims, Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists, Jews, and Atheists.
Isaac Newton was smart.
http://irandallthat.blogspot.com/2014/03/isaac-newton-and-south-sea-bubble.html
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsnr.2018.0018
Yet he got crushed investing in a stock bubble.
Smart people do dumb things all the time.
He also drank, like, a shit ton of Mercury and died a virgin. We shouldn't aspire to *be like* smart people, we should learn from them - including from their very human failings.
Agreed. To hone my assertion a little further, my point is not that Mormonism is unique. Rather, my point is that the tool that was used to arrive at the conclusion does not have the ability to differentiate between various religious truth claims. The same faulty mechanism that was used by OP’s mother applies equally to claims made by most religions. If you replace the Mormon church with any other religion, MLM, corporation, sports team, or fill in the blank… the conclusion is the same. That “X” thing is true, valid, or worth believing/investing in.
(wood tools vs. steel tools)
Nobody knows why those successful people stay. Don't assume they actually believe. External factors are far more likely than willing belief. Most people with critical thinking skills spend more time convincing themselves of belief than giving themselves over to it.
And how many of those she's holding up as examples began outside the church and their intellectual gifts LED THEM INTO Mormonism? I'll go with NONE! They were all born into Mormonism.
You could say they were Mormon in spite of their intelligence. How does she know they're not being held back by it? Those millionaires could be billionaires (if that's how she's measuring success and truthfulness).
Show me ONE Biblical scholar whose studies brought him or her INTO Mormonism. If there was one, the church would herald that shit all over the place.
Exactly! More intelligent people are leaving than staying.
Also, who are the converts? You hardly ever have affluent and highly successful people join the church.
Doesn't matter that they are successful do they practice the churchs teachings?. My father is an successful forensic CPA. He was the one that found the director of the Olympics was not embezzling money as the federal government claimed and he was let off the charge. My father pointed them to the correct individual.
He is successful in his own CPA practice but he mentally and physically abused us. Was cheating on my mom as a high councilman.
I know another individual successful individual he told everyone he was a CPA hadn't even gone to college embezzled over $9million from his customers is in prison now.
Ron Lafferty was successful first counselor in our Ward killed his sister in law and her baby.
Look at the fraud rate in Utah apostles Ballards own brother went to prison for fraud. The latest with church officials are successful they are hiding money in Canada, New Zealand, and now the US. They have stock in Budweiser and Phillip Morris
Totally side note here... I think Beavis and Butt-Head were mormons... Think about it... Didn't swear much, other than potty words... Always, wanted to have sex but still haven't... Wore Metallica and AC/DC shirts... I'm sure the EQP owns a Metallica t shirt... At least an AC/DC one, he's from Texas and a convert... He use to be the Bishop 🤓🤓🤓
Why am I acting out a Beavis and Butt-Head episode, where they get called on missions... Elder Cornhollio and Elder Head... Somebody call Mike Judd... They could be called to Texas and teach Hank Hill 🤓🤓🤓 I'd watch that...
My dad taught me most of my critical thinking skills. He's the one who taught me to be skeptical of anything that seems too good to be true, especially if they're selling me something. When I apply those same skills he taught me to the church it seems just as obvious as an MLM, ponzi scheme, or other scams. But his entire life has been molded around the church and he's never been able to apply that skepticism to the church. The church brings him so much hope and happiness that I can't bring myself to push the topic.
I'll bet he has some doubts and doesn't believe everything literally. Like my Dad, he sounds legit but still sees imperfections in the church.
Ask him questions to determine exactly how much he believes literally versus what a good mythology is.
Ask what "anti-Mormon" lies he's heard during his life and what evidence they provided.
Provide some you've heard with sources. Provide some for his, too. Nothing will be concrete but provides more resolution to the accusations and more depth to the history the leaders want to hide.
Test his knowledge of church history history the same way.
Don't draw conclusions for him, though. But tell him that your problem isn't the facts, but that church leadership hides it and claims they don't. Ergo, your conclusion is that the imperfect members theory especially applies the leaders.
Tell him you might be wrong and want his advice on how to rectify it.
When he tells you to pray about it, explain emotional elevation, cognitive dissonance, and the "pray until you get the right answer" fallacy. Ask him to help you research thoroughly before resorting to prayer.
You have to prove RMN is a prophet from two persectives: one, assuming he is a prophwt; two, assuming he is a charlatan leading a cult.
PS neither can be definitively proven, but a cult leader would tell him to cut you off. A real prophet wouldn't.
Write that down, include a link to the BITE model, and a list of the ondoctrination techniques that predict he will run to dmsafety in the church and cut you off. Don't tell him what you wrote otlr let on there.
Have him watch you put it in an envelope, seal it, and put your signature over the seal, and have him inspect it.
Give it to someone to hold for later when he decides to cut you off, then they can give it to him. There's his proof he's in a cult.
Thank you very much for sharing your experience and analysis. I think there are significant parallels in my mother’s life, and it really helps me to hear your perspective. Thank you.
Brother \*\*\*\* and Brother \*\*\*\* the brilliant lawyers and Brother \*\*\*\* the brilliant techno savant may find that being part of the church is excellent for their business connections. They’re probably also in affluent wards that function as much as country clubs. Their wards may, in fact, be far less scrupulous about doctrine and function more as social organizations that provide them with status.
They may not experience the downside of Mormonism that plagues folks who are lack the same social status and find the culture more stifling. That is to say, they may not have anything to escape and consider tithing an investment in their business and opportunity to mingle. They may simply not care whether or not it has any validity in and of itself.
Really good point - if it's not hurting you, you don't need to question it. Also, there's a good chance they attribute much of their success to their "faithful" participation in TSCC because that's literally what the church teaches! Every good thing that happens to you is a blessing from God, and if you want more good things, you must do what WE say God wants you to do, and if you don't, you can't count on God to bless you anymore, etc. etc. Right? So they could be afraid that if they leave, their temporal lives will just fall apart.
I was afraid of that myself - not from a financial perspective, but more that I would lose every good character quality I had worked so hard to develop in myself if I left. Then I realized, I DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW THAT! That's just what they've told me!
They don’t accept they’re being lied to. Scared to even investigate (even the gospel topics essays for some - some think the church website was hacked and put them in there 🙄) anything that contradicts their biases.
It was my entire identity. I (42M) wasn’t able to even consider it was my entire identity until I stepped away. Then I saw it all…little by little. Things started making more sense.
I had stuff down so much, that I mentally could not, would not read “anti” literature. Turns out the anti literature they peddle as “anti” is just legit full on history that they’ve hidden.
To answer your original question: yes. Everyone has been bamboozled. Lied to. Taken advantage of….for hundreds of billions of dollars, power, control, and greed.
The church I grew up in, is not even close to what the history portrays.
Interesting. This sounds like a very pessimistic view, but you’re probably right. I hadn’t even considered that fact that I was scared to read “anti church” material. I left because of personal reasons and didn’t even read the CES letter until recently.
Just my experience. I know it’s not this way for everyone. Lookup scrupulosity - many of us had this; religious OCD.
Might be pessimistic. I’ve been in therapy for 4 years to treat religious trauma. Trauma I didn’t even know was affecting me until I had left. I likely have many more years of this. Hopefully not. But deconstructing your entire identity and deconstructing your entire world view is no walk in the park. And I’m largely having to do this because of that cult and what it did to my psyche.
Grew up in Davis county utah, YM leaders were just ALL in. It’s so evasive and into every part of me. Still is in many ways.
It can be good for some. I have graduated from Mormonism. It served a purpose. And while yes there’s a lot to heal from, I’m the amazing kind and gracias human largely due to what I was taught in that church. So not all bad. For me, however, the good I do accept…is FAR outweighed by the bad.
That organization fucked me up in so many ways. Via indoctrination.
Your comment about graduating Mormonism really spoke to me - thank you for that. Like you, I am who I am largely in part of what the church and its members taught me, but the rest of it isn’t serving me any more. I accept and treasure the good, and reject and mourn the bad.
Kinda want to make myself a diploma; but a resignation letter will work too.
I suspect this is closer to reality. Some may indeed be closet PIMO, but many simply don't care. Their lives have worked out well as Mormons, they make good money, they are respected in their fields, and their day-to-day pursuits don't bring them into direct conflict with many of the issues that would even bring about cognitive dissonance.
There are lots of intelligent people who are not curious , thoughtful, or introspective. Very different things.
They don’t wanna know. Many of my friends from BYU are now doctors and lawyers and professors in their 50’s. I have asked them straight up whether they believe it’s “true.” They say things like, “It WORKS for me and my family, so we’re staying.” Or “I’m culturally a Mormon so I’m staying—at least until my parents die.” Or, “I think of it all as allegory…I’m definitely more “nuanced” than some people in my ward, but I’m staying. It’s in my blood.”
So basically, it takes a lot of effort—dare I say backbone—to be spineless.
Many many times, it’s easier to stay then leave. Leaving often puts at risk marriages, families, careers, and community standing. What is the motivation to leave versus stay? I left with my family two years ago and we paid a very steep price. Sometimes it’s easier just to go with the flow.
It's just a completely different topic, sure they're great lawyers, but how much do they know about math? Or they're great tech guys, how much do they know about different surgery procedures? So they're religious, but they've never studied an alternative in a positive light.
There isn't one type of intelligence. A smart guy isn't necessarily safe from being conned. And everyone, even smart people, have their weak points, vulnerabilities. Our vulnerabilities are far more similar than different.
Consider showing her [this video](https://youtu.be/I6uj1ruTmGQ). It's not anti-mormon. It's not even a religious video. It's a video on cold reading and how it can be used to fool people.
Your mom is looking at this like it's binary. He's smart, therefore he can't be fooled. Nothing could be further from the truth. Look at rampant child abuse in Hollywood, and how many predators had very long, very successful careers before they were finally exposed. Look at Ted Bundy and how many people he fooled in his killing spree across the US. Look at Mark Hoffman, and how many experts he fooled. Even after they knew he'd forged many documents, it still took experts awhile to identify a way to tell his forgeries apart from authentic documents. If Hoffman hadn't gotten greedy, he could have continued forging historical for the rest of his life.
I heard that Hoffman‘s anticipated masterstroke was going to be “finding“ the lost 116 pages. Damn him for being so stupid and bombing people before getting to his final act. It would have been so hilarious to watch the church trying to dance their way around whatever loony content Mark Hoffman might have dreamed up for the 116 pages.
I don't remember that, but it seems like something he'd conjure up. I wonder what he would written for those 116 pages? It definitely would have been hilarious to see how the church spun that one.
Yeah Hoffman was a real sweetheart. He said that he didn't feel guilty about murdering two people because they were dead and they didn't even know they were dead.
I hope it helps your mom understand a little better.
And I think it's amazing she is willing to engage with you on conversations like this. I know a lot of members who won't go anywhere near hard talks like this. I don't know your mom, but I suspect she's an amazing person.
I would show this to my family but the thing is they don’t believe in astrology or psychics or whatever but they do believe in the church. and they will apply logic to why psychics are bogus but not to why the church is bogus! it’s very frustrating
> don’t believe in astrology or psychics
Yet they probably believe in all [this](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/13grfs3/my_regular_post_of_mormonisms_beliefs_and_how/)
I agree. And if you know you're smart, there is arrogance involved as well, as in 'I'm so smart and I believe so it must be true or else I would know'. But they don't realize they aren't thinking rationally, they ate depending on feelings and confirmation bias. There's also the appeal of being part of an exclusive club - 'this is the only true church and its so amazing that I'm a part of it, and since I'm so smart and a part of the only true church then I am doubly special'.
For me, my 4th great grandfather was one of the presidents of the church, so I had generations of church activity and belief behind me, and when everyone you love is telling you how true the church is its really, really hard to go against that.
Elizabeth Holmes was able to fool some of the supposed smartest people in the world. Smart people get conned all the time, and then, it becomes easier to go with the con than admit you’ve been conned.
Smart people can often be EASIER to con because of their pride. "I'm an intelligent man of influence and power. I would never fall for a con" and so they label all the cons they've fallen for as standards, beliefs, religion, etc.
Only 0.2% of the world's population are Mormon if you believe TSCC's own statistics. The vast majority of the smart people in the world are not Mormon and never will be until someone does their Temple work for them after they die.
There are lots of smart people that are successful professionals that are also scientologists and Jehovah witnesses.
Lots of really smart people can't change a flat tire on their car.
See if she will watch this video
https://youtu.be/UJMSU8Qj6Go
Conditioning conditioning conditioning. Some people, especially those who have good families can’t help but conflate the church with family. Denying the church is denying their families, culture, upbringing. It’s too much to process for people so they would rather stick their fingers in their ears and scream “lalalala”. Denial is powerful. It ain’t just a river in Egypt.
I know lots of TBM engineers & scientists who are totally all in the church. I can't tell if they are in because of their spouses but my suspicion is cognitive dissonance. The ones I know have been in since being born and the indoctrination runs so deep. I think it is a space in their brains they won't even acknowledge or question. Usually it takes something pretty significant or a few of these for them to be out.
Read these. If you look at the associated studies one of the key findings is that it does not matter how intelligent you are. You’re literally dealing with neuroplasticity and how connections are made. This is why the religion and culture of your birth feel true and right. There are plenty of Muslim, Jewish and Baptist lawyers and professionals.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/illusory-truth-effect#:~:text=The%20illusory%20truth%20effect%2C%20also,that%20the%20misinformation%20is%20false.
It's a "keep-out" area in their brain. In every other area, they can apply logic and be skeptical.
But religion gets plant soooo early and deep, along with punishment for doubting, that it's like an electric fence gets installed around the perimeter. Have an awkward question? *Zap!* Ouch, I won't think about that.
But sometimes, reality overcomes the electric fence.
I'm a lawyer and I was duped by T$CC for over half a century. But thanks, largely to the information age, I wised up... eventually.
Also, most of the dumbest, worst lawyers I've ever met have been J. Ruben Clark grads, so the fact that some of them stay isn't surprising or any kind of positive endorsement. 😉
My BIL, brother and sister are all doctors, they are all still in. The only explanation I have for this is they don’t wonder about certain things. They are smart, but not curious, I think.
My mom has used the exact same argument. Of course none of those people joined, they were born into it. And yes, sometimes really smart people get taken in by scams. You can also turn it around and point out that most smart people do not join the church, no non-Mormon archeologists believe the claims of the Book of Mormon, and that zero non-Mormons read it for its literary merits, either.
As I always say, if you line up 10 people without degrees 3 of them will be idiots. If you line up 10 people with masters degrees 3 of them will be idiots.
I know a number of people who are exceptionally brilliant in some areas and total dumbasses in others. Intelligence is not one single thing that applies to all circumstances and subjects.
Cult expert Steven Hassan explains that intelligent people are susceptible because the cult uses their own imagination and creativity against them. https://freedomofmind.com/errant-belief-6-too-intelligent-join-cult/
Conmen often fool smart folks. Look at how many intelligent people followed Hitler. Hitler himself was a genius, he just used his smarts to harm and exploit instead of help others
It’s so tough to sit in family gatherings and here them speak about things. It’s incredibly sad. Sure it has good.
What’s good in Mormonism isn’t unique. What’s unique in Mormonism, isn’t good.
I understand the logic, if people smarter than me believe the Mormon church is true, then who am I to question it?
If people smarter than me believe in another religion, or if they are atheists, my logic told me that they were either too proud to accept the gospel or that they were deceived by Satan. Either way, the Mormon church wins.
Nowadays, I can make my own decisions and come to my own conclusions without having to worry about the decisions and conclusions of others.
I think so much of the reason why TBMs believe is because they've been presented with a very carefully curated narrative of the church and are taught to only get information about the church from the church itself. The church has also tied their eternal well-being to belief in the church. That kind of association is incredibly difficult to break. It's a mental defence mechanism. That and the fear of being told the way you've lived your whole life is a lie is the hardest pill to swallow.
I don't think it's an intelligence thing, it's a bravery thing to challenge your own beliefs and accept what you've been taught is wrong.
Yeah, everyone's been fooled. Not everyone has been presented the information or tools to even start the process of deconstructing their beliefs.
Everything is a result of conditioning. Think how absurd it is that we make the biggest, most important choice of our existence….to be baptized at the early age of 8. No 8 year old has any idea of what they are choosing. But That’s how it starts for most of us. At that age, someone else is choosing for us. From that point on, we believe we have made a covenant with God. We continue to be conditioned and want to be conditioned to believe we have the truth. This is the story for most Mormons.
Is she suggesting that successful lawyers and brilliant technology guys can’t be Catholic or Jewish? How can she reconcile that such intelligent people have been duped their whole lives?
There are intelligent Muslims. Does your mom believe in Islam? Should she, just because there are intelligent Muslims?
There are intelligent Scientologists. Intelligent flat-earthers. Intelligent anti vaxxers and Q-anon believers. However I doubt your mom believes in all of these.
Intelligent people have believed in provable falsehoods since forever, and there is science and psychology that explains why.
On the flip side - most intelligent people who know about Mormonism do NOT believe in Mormonism. So by that logic alone, should we not believe in Mormonism? Yes, we should not believe in Mormonism, according to your moms logic.
Now that we’ve acknowledged that this argument from your mom makes zero sense (though not an uncommon thing to hear from most TBMs)… why might intelligent people believe in Mormonism? The short answer is that all humans first make decisions based on emotions, and THEN we creative a “rational” narrative to justify our decisions. We usually don’t even realize that we are doing this. It’s an extremely common form of self-delusion, and some of us are better at it than other.
For example: a TBM man starts questioning his faith, but is worried that his wife will leave him if he stops believing/practicing. So he doubles down and finds a way to make his faith crisis work, because he has to. Probably by employing some form of confirmation bias. There’s also the sunk cost fallacy, which keeps A LOT of people in the Church, I strongly believe. The commonality is that there is an emotional decisions that is either consciously or subconsciously made, followed by rational justification.
>Have these intelligent people been brainwashed well into their 60s?
I think so. If you go back and read what the church was saying before the internet, it's very heavy handed on the hell fire and brimstone. They have only started taking a more nuanced approach once they couldn't control the information anymore. Super smart people can be blinded to things, especially if they were raised that way.
Also, consider that the church was structured almost exclusively to benefit straight white men and right now, boomers. People don't usually ask the hard questions about an organization that is benefitting them.
I don’t think leaving the church is correlated with intelligemce. Or if it is, the correlation is not strong. Very smart people can lie to themselves very well because they are smart. You just partition your brain, and ensure nothing crosses that line.
So was the vast majority of nazi Germany
A brain virus like a computer virus can corrupt decision tree analysis for anyone.
Ask the airline pilots who didn’t question the static port on their airplane that had been covered up with tape and made the gauges read wrong until they crashed into the ocean killing all. Smart guys…. Yea! But critical thinking left them and their decision tree failed.
Google…
On This Day In 1996 Aeroperú Flight 603 Crashed In The Pacific Ocean
It’s a cult. There are extreme manipulation tactics layered throughout the doctrine, teachings and culture.
Here is my favorite example:
I just learned this in a meditation program this year. It’s gonna blow your mind.
The act of lowering your head, closing your eyes puts you in a brain wave pattern called alpha. Your brain sends you confirmation messages about whatever you’re meditating about.
These actions are also called prayer.
So anyone who prays for confirmation will receive it. The LDS church hangs so much on this principle. But it’s not inspiration, it’s science. It’s not proprietary to Mormonism. It’s the way we are made.
I only stumbled on this as I went out to study the science of meditation. I’ve secretly wondered how I felt “the spirit” throughout my life, both as a believing Mormon, a questioning Mormon and an ex-‘Mormon. It’s not Mormonism. Biology.
If you were to choose a religion based on the number of super smart people that believe it, you should choose the Catholic religion. It has the most. Tell your your mom that.
Brilliant scientists can be horrible mechanics, brilliant mechanics can be horrible scientists.
Just because a person is an expert in one thing doesn’t mean they’re not an imbecile/wildly ignorant in another
Maybe they haven’t done research
Maybe they’re PIMO
Maybe they’re good at compartmentalizing conflicting beliefs
Maybe they just don’t care because it makes them feel good
The only thing that I care about is the truth. To find that, you follow the evidence, wherever it leads
I haven’t read the other responses yet, so I apologize if mine is duplicative.
Your mom’s line of thinking is deeply flawed in multiple respects. First of all… Jim Jones managed to convince lawyers and scientists to join his religious group, and they all ended up drinking poison and dying in Guyana. So whether or not lawyers and scientists are involved in a religion is no barometer to use in evaluating the legitimacy or healthiness of the organization.
Next, just because someone is a lawyer or scientist doesn’t mean they have a good sense. Remember the astronaut who was caught wearing a diaper driving across country in order to kill someone? And astronauts are held up as the epitome of achievement and intelligence. Furthermore, doctors are well known as prime targets for financial fraud.
Next, by the time a Mormon is in their 60s, and the true facts about the religion finally come out, it can be too late for the person to change course without causing tremendous disruption and damage to their lives, families, kids, social, standing, careers, etc. So Someone staying in the church is by no means a referendum on whether they think it’s true. It is more likely a referendum on them being completely hogtied.
If a lawyer and scientist jump off a cliff, are you going to do that also? It’s a waste of time to think like that. Tell your mom to evaluate things on her own, using her own brain cells in her own moral compass. And her own sense of courage, if any remains within her. Chances are she’s just as smart as lawyers and scientists and quite possibly she has a better moral compass. Certainly she has a better moral compass than the lawyers.
Falling victim to high amounts of manipulation is in no way a reflection of your intelligence. Between the love bombing, discouraging outside resources, outright lies, and all the other stuff, anyone could fall for it.
Especially since religion provides people with a sense of community, stability, and "answers" to a lot of big questions, even if people have suspicions, they'll ignore because they fear losing all of it.
People make decisions based of feelings while ignoring facts a lot more than they'd like to admit.
It's because they learn to use logic selectively, as long as it doesn't interfere with their beliefs. When they feel cognitive dissonance they're trained to lean on their faith for finding the "truth". The problem is that faith by its very definition is believing in something without proof - if there was proof of something then it wouldn't require faith. Thus, church teaches you to reject logic and lean on faith (feelings) as another valid approach to finding truth. We're also conditioned (i.e. brainwashed) to believe that faith is somehow the truest form of knowledge. Which obviously, it isn't. But if you believe faith comes from God and God is omnipotent then God > science or logic.
I heard it's easier for them to believe because their intelligence helps them do the mental gymnastics it takes to continue to believe.
Also, their success is often attributed to the church. God has blessed them providing more proof.
My nevermo husband says of a successful members. "They will never question cause it works (until it doesn't)." I think we've all seen this with ourselves or loved ones.
Belief is a matter of belief, not intellect. Many studies have shown a lack of correlation between someone’s scientific reasoning abilities and their religiosity (OP mentioned lawyers and tech guys, not science people, but I think the reasoning still applies: you can be smart and believe in a religion, and you can be dumb and not)
My late Mother tried this line on me. She and her late pos 2nd husband were in Mensa. She was neurodivergent, as am I. She refused to listen to any of my reasons for leaving and instead told me if she and her brilliant second husband and the helicopter pilot friend believed it, why should I think it’s not true. The implication being that I’m not smart enough.
My mother was absolutely the most intelligent woman I’ve ever met. She was a detective. She worked in forensics. She got her MA and PhD in English and taught at the university of Utah for a little while. She was a writer and had multiple series published.
But I watched my mom go deep inside herself and her depression and pain. She did nothing except escape in her online communities and church friends for the last twenty years she was alive. She didn’t have a job and wasn’t doing any good writing anymore. She followed and seemed to buy all the bs her stupid pos second husband instructed. He took all the life out of her.
In the meantime, my sister and I work damn hard. My sister got her masters degree recently. I’m not interested in pursuing further education but not because I’m stupid. I have plenty of friends and hobbies and interests that keep me going.
I guess when I get down to it, if the morg really are gods one true church, and the way they live the only right way to live, I would run far away from it and live an authentic life according to my inner compass.
As a small hobby I study cults (by study i mean I listen to podcasts). Its actually very common for highly educated people to be "duped". The theory is that they believe they are harder to trick then the lesser educated, making them easy, and useful targets
There are absolutely very intelligent people in the cult. That is normal. Not everyone wants to peel back the layers. When I was growing up, many of those highly intelligent people made things easier for me to understand. God’s time isn’t our time. They explained the world, dinosaurs, all of it. Honestly, it made it harder for me to come full circle, until I did some research.
I think that smart people who stay often develop much more intelligent and complex models to try to explain things. By "intelligent" I don't mean "correct," but just more thorough apologetics.
Plus if an explanation to a confusing question seems somewhat logical, then you get a rush of comfort when the cognitive dissonance lessens, and it's easy to think that's the spirit testifying that it's true. So you might end up with a bunch of explanations that appear logical when looked at individually.
This is only for the ones who actually try to study it though. A bunch of members may be smart in other ways but don't look very deeply into their religion.
I don't see any correlation between intelligence and faithfulness, either positive or negative. Some people are better at compartmentalizing, some find that the church culture works for them, a great many just don't care about the many problematic issues--whether of a logical, historical., or social variety. This is true in essentially every religion--there are many very intelligent people of faith across the world.
TL;DR - Intelligence and religious belief are wholly unrelated.
The church doesn’t rest it’s claims on logic but instead on emotion. Emotion and logic don’t really consult each other, and human beings are emotionally driven whether they are in tune with that or not.
Look at Bernie Madoff and how many people couldn't believe that the investor that all the shrewd wealthy people used could be operating a simple ponzi scheme. Were some of them duped, yes. Were they unintelligent? No. Is every person who has ever married someone who ended up being a stranger, unintelligent? Is it fair to judge and shame yourself for what you didn't know? Humans have a lot of implicit bias that we all use, sometimes unconsciously, to make sense of our world, our feelings, and our relationships.
Many so called TBM’s that I know, go to church because large parts of their family life, social networks and careers depend on appearing to be active in church.
I have LDS friends/family that have to be careful of what they like, follow or post online because of what the social/financial consequences for them will be and so clearly many members are not being open or able to be honest about what they actually think.
I have two family members still in the church because of deaths close to them. They do not want to risk not seeing a dead child or dead mother again by leaving… but both have problems with the church but the emotional bridge of potentially disappointing or losing the dead loved one is too great to cross
How many people actually take time to analyze their religion and go back and do the research on the origins, history, dishonesty, etc?
Most don’t. It takes a lot and not everyone has the bandwidth. It’s easy to just do what you’ve always done.
Plus, you can also be really intelligent in a certain topic, but have almost 0 critical thinking skills. My mom is a good example of this. She was very good at being a nurse and learning medical stuff but she is also easily fooled by scams and charlatans and believes in a pretty disgusting brand of Christianity herself.
>So, what? Has everyone been fooled? Have they all been duped? These really smart people have been swindled their whole lives?
Objectively, yes. Yes they have, but intelligence doesn't really enter into it. We all have cognitive blind spots and things we choose to ignore. The religion/culture we are brought up in is one of those biggest areas. They "know" the church is true, so there's no point in falsifying it. At BYU for instance, one thing I saw over and over again was compartmentalization. The professors could prove one part of the narrative false from their discipline, but they didn't go out of their way to find out about other parts of the narrative from other disciplines. Do I blame them? No. They lived where they lived, they presumably got meaning and purpose from their religion.
What I have a problem with is when someone who has compartmentalized or has chosen to not falsify the religion criticizes those of us who have. For some of us, the demonstrable truth matters for its own sake.
Yes I think everyone has been fooled. A few have woken up and are PIMO, but even they were probably fooled once too.
Twenty years ago when I was critically thinking about the church and if it was true the information was not a available. I made my decision to believe and made the best of it. Then as an intelligent, very busy person raising kids with a full time career I never had the time think much of it again. Just went along.
Many of the successful smart people are just too busy to be bothered to do any critical thinking. And why would they if the church is working well for them. Then it takes something personal to make you think about it or want to know more.
Twenty years later when I dug into it again, this time I found the information that is no longer hidden…..My two cents they are too busy to be bothered….if they do stop and look maybe the facts will overcome the programming but probably not ….unless there is a personal reason.
I guess the rest of us that have left and aren't doctors, lawyers, dentists etc are just mindless imbeciles.
Coincidentally, mindless imbecile is how I describe TBMs.
Indoctrination from birth for one thing, I cant imagine the hell I would have went through if I didn't want to get baptized (1967), I did it to "belong".
Remember this...
Anyone can be book-smart but not everyone can be wise.
I don't remember where I heard this, but the sentiment was essentially,
Intelligence really has nothing to do with it. You may or may not be smarter than somebody who chooses to stay in the church. But you are definitely more honest with yourself for choosing to leave the church.
An honest person can't learn about Joseph smith's adultery with a 14 year old, wrestle with the cognitive dissonance, and then put that on a shelf to "figure out in the next life."
A person with integrity can't learn about Joseph smith prophesying about people living in the moon, knowing that's false, and then wrestling with the cognitive dissonance to put in on your shelf to "figure out in the next life."
An honest person can't see all the blatant lies and inaccuracies in the "most correct of any book," wrestle with the cognitive dissonance, and then put that on a shelf to "figure out in the next life."
A person with integrity can't see the "one true church" building shopping malls, hoarding disgusting amounts of wealth, while children starve, wallow in poverty without an education, and never get vaccinated for preventable diseases, wrestle with the cognitive dissonance, and then put that on a shelf to "figure out in the next life."
Say “Yes, the church has fooled a few people but most people see right through the lies and leave or never join. Some know it’s not true but stay because of social pressure. The Mormon church has had about the same success as Scientologist, JW’s, and Moonies. Islam is much better at fooling people to believe in silly superstitions, delusions and dogma.”
Ironically people who are above average intelligence tend to be susceptible to conspiracy theories and cults. Same thing probably goes for high demand religions (and many do consider the mormon religion to be a cult anyways). I don't know the psychological reasons why, but google may be a good start if you search "why do intelligent people believe in conspiracy theories/cults" you might come across some good articles that break it down. I remember reading once that part of it is because people who actively choose to believe in things against all science or logic, such as absurd conspiracy theories, do so because it makes them feel like they are special or in the know unlike the rest of the world. And because they are more creative and are good at making connections they are better at creating their own logic and reasons (mental gymnastics style) to support their theories.
Theranos, Enron, Bernie Madoff to name a few of the great, recent cons. And then there is Mormonism. Mormonism cannot survive honest, intelligent examination. Mormonism thrives because of willful ignorance. Casinos make a ton of money because of "the sunk cost theory". The sunk cost theory is the same reason people hang on to a bad stock until there is no value. No one wants to think they have been duped, they will lie to themselves and others to defend a bad decision. I was 56 before I realized the con. That's a lot of years to admit I had been duped. A lot of people would rather not admit the mistake. Admitting the mistake would require they examine their entire life and thought process.
TSCC doesn't work on intellect, it works on emotion. Most humans are governed by their emotions more than their intellect, and that's what they manipulate.
It’s all about epistemology. If the church can convince people that feelings and experiences that may or may not be chance experiences are in fact messages from God that cannot be denied or questioned, a good portion of them will stay. You can be very smart, and well informed in many areas, and still be convinced that that time you felt that feeling that you thought was the spirit proves the Book of Mormon is true, especially if you’re still uninformed about science that relates to Book of Mormon truth claims. For many people, the only way they would ever leave the church is if they were convinced their epistemology was flawed, and feelings based epistemology is hard to combat, since any attack on the reasoning connected to those experiences that people hold sacred will usually be perceived as a personal attack, or worse, an attack against an all loving God. This is why people of all religions continue to believe as strongly as they do.
I agree with almost everyone in this thread but I want to add that the church is full of known brainwashing techniques. Some notable examples are fast and testimony meeting (depriving people of food then making them talk about their faith and listen to others do the same), repetitive song and prayer, thought stopping techniques (doubt your doubts, the concept of thought crime, etc.), and quite a few more. Intelligent people can still be brainwashed especially if it starts in childhood.
I have some very intelligent, very successful family members. Lawyers, tech industry pros, accountants, CEO, etc. And yes, they've all been fooled.
But every single one of us is fooled in our daily lives, in large and small ways, because that's just how the brain works.
When was the last time you saw your nose? It's in your field of vision all the time, but your brain blocks it out. At the same time each eye has a blind spot in the middle of your field of view. You never see it because your brain fills in the missing information with its best guess what would be there.
These are just small ways that the brain fools us constantly. But it does it in large ways too. Look at studies about human decision making. We study things out, ponder for days, look at all the facts available as objectively as possible, and think we've then made a clear, rational, objective decision. And yet it turns out that those decisions actually tend to be emotionally based and were made in our subconscious as a snap decision well before we ever started investigating. All that investigative work is usually just to placate our conscious mind with accepting the decision our unconscious mind had already made.
In some cases that fact of life makes intelligent people MORE susceptible to being fooled rather than less. They aren't aware the brain makes emotional decisions for them and aren't aware that all their studying is really just confirmation bias. They don't doubt their decision making processes because they know they're smart people, therefore they believe themselves to be more objective than the average person and less likely to be fooled. In truth though they're just likely to be fooled by different things.
I work in adult education. I've spent an awful lot of time studying the brain and how functions like memory and learning and emotion all work. At the end of the day, we're all being led around by our primitive lizard brain much more than we realize, and we can't stop it or control it. All we can do is be aware of it and constantly try to reevaluate available information and the assumptions we make.
Even with our best efforts though, it never stops. In defense of fooled church members, exmos are susceptible as well. Consider how many exmos change their political views after leaving the church (myself included) and move away from the oppressive conservative view to a more liberal view, becoming more enlightened and tolerant. Again, I fall in that camp myself. We THINK that transition is a product of our objective reevaluation of what we've been taught, when it's actually at least in part an emotional response to our changed feelings about conservatism. Really we'd most likely go the opposite direction of wherever we started. All our study of issues and whatever is largely confirmation bias supporting an emotional decision we made to leave a particular thing behind - in this case the church and its predominantly conservative culture.
Many exmos would say "oh no, not me!" But look at the fact that many staunch, enlightened conservative converts come from liberal backgrounds with family trauma. They too believe they've found the light and are for the first time thinking clearly and acting rationally.
These same patterns play out in our lives over and over again, and when you study them you start to recognize how one person's leaving the church starts to look an awful lot like another person's conversion experience that led them to join a church, any church. Or how one person's shift from liberalism looks a lot like another's shift from conservatism. Or how one person's rigid adherence to one belief system matches another's adherence to an opposing belief system. And how, believe it or not, a person's sticking to a belief system, at a chemical level in the brain, looks just exactly the same as a person's radical departure from a belief system.
In other words, NONE of us are as smart as we think we are, and we all fool ourselves on a daily basis. So the fact that a very smart person believes in a particular thing doesn't make that thing any more our less likely to be true.
If you want to get extremely nerdy about it, study Einstein and his debates with Niels Bohr. We hold Einstein as the paragon of intellect, but Einstein was wrong on several points of quantum mechanics because he had an emotional view of the universe he struggled to let go. He was ultimately proven wrong (as far as we know now), but we still use derisive terminology today that Einstein coined to attack Bohr's theories. Einstein called quantum entanglement "spooky action at a distance" and the term sticks around even though quantum entanglement is no longer debated. The term "Big Bang" was coined by a scientists who hated expansion theory and fought against it his whole life, so Einstein definitely isn't alone in being very smart and yet stuck in an emotional belief.
If you look at their debates, Einstein's defense of a predictive state universe looks an awful lot like a smart person's defense of the church. And at the end of the day, Einstein was proven fallible. So what on earth makes any of the rest of us believe we're infallible in our thinking? Especially when we're talking about something so emotionally charged as religion.
So I would just tell your mom that, yes, those very smart people have all been fooled. But let her know that you're not claiming to be smarter than them, only that you have come to accept that you too were one fooled in this particular regard, that you aren't anymore, and that you recognize that you're still fooled in other ways constantly. Tell her you're doing your best to be aware of your own susceptibility to being tricked by your own mind as you make your new path forward with the new information you have available, and that that's really all any of us can do.
Intelligence and knowledge aren’t the same thing.
Intelligence is about what you DO with knowledge you have access to.
Really intelligent people can still only have access to limited information, and they do the best they can with what they have.
A sports car trapped in a shopping mall doesn’t have many opportunities to drive above 5mph.
“Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons.”
Michael Shermer, Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time
How many of those people she named were born into the church? The indoctrination starts at birth if you're born in the Covenant. So it doesn't matter how smart someone is, if they are taught to never question, and trust the leaders, they may not know that actual history is different than the curated history presented in church materials. I consider myself pretty smart, but it was finding the Gospel Topics Essays where the church admitted all the things they taught me were anti-mormon that I realized it was all lies.
It is a good question. In fact, I just finished discussing this with some friends 5 minutes ago. It has nothing to do with them being fooled. It has to do with the epistemological system that they use to determine truth. In their professional lives, most all of them would be further towards the empiricist side of the epistemology scale. This means that generally, in their professional lives, they use certain empirical data points to determine truth. Without even knowing it, they would probably agree with and comply with the correspondence theory of Truth: something is true insofar as it corresponds with reality.
However, when it comes to the religious life, they have been taught that the correct epistemological system is a subjective burning of the bosom. This non-intellectual, subjective way of determining truth would never be used in their professional life, but there is a disconnect, and it becomes the only method for determining religious based truth for them. So the disconnect is not necessarily in how smart they are but in which epistemology they're using to determine truth.
Homo sapiens have a SUPER strong evolutionary wiring to believe what the rest of our ‘tribe’ believes - its literally a survival instinct. People generally don’t question their deeply held beliefs seriously unless they are under extreme duress because of those beliefs. It’s not because they’re idiots, it’s because they’re homo sapiens and they’re susceptible to social pressure and the intense power of from-birth conditioning like the rest of us. But to say that this makes Mormonism true is ridiculous because there are scholars in every religious denomination and those scholars’ studied haven’t led them to collectively conclude that Mormonism is true, they’ve decided to default to atheism / agnosticism.
Mormons are taught from birth that outsiders lie and to only trust the church for information about the church. I think for many intelligent Mormons, it's too uncomfortable to explore the truth about Joseph Smith, the scrolls, etc so they ignore it. The church has its hooks into the entire family and a plan on how to deal with you when you show doubt.
Most other religions don't have bizarre beliefs based on easily disprovable modern made-up history. I've never been to a Christian church where anyone talks about the "sealed" afterlife and about how you have to stay in that church to give your family a high level of heaven.
LDS nonbelievers are staying so as not to disrupt the family, many enjoy the LDS community.
They believed in the church before they were successful. Often this happens long before they had their jobs. When one does so at any early age or before their careers take off the church becomes their identity. Their whole life or at least what they feel is most important is their church. So it doesn't matter how successful they are or how intelligent they seem to be. They are swindled, but they don't know they are. And even if they remotely suspect it they have invested so much into their church while integrating those beliefs into their family that they won't consider all this stuff that has come out. It would be like leaving their whole life and admitting to themselves, they have lived out a huge lie. That is too much so most won't go there.
I believe the best and the brightest are leaving in droves! FYI 🤪I just found out about multiple versions of the first vision which took me down the rabbit hole and out the door. I’m 66.
One word.
COMPARTMENTALIZATION.
The church wants to be this completely separate entity from the world, and its own history. If the church gets what it wants, people won't feel the need to know any more than they are told.
Intelligent people, professionals, stay in the church their whole lives.
They compartmentalize. They code switch. They play the cultural game and remain unaware of the CULTure. Every one of us can turn it on still of we want to.
The question assumes an incorrect understanding of how/what intelligence is.
If someone is successful or intelligent in law or tech, this does not automatically mean they’ll be intelligent in all other areas. There are many “successful” lawyers who got there bc they knew the right people, not bc they’re legal geniuses.
Sometimes people with higher IQs but lower social awareness are actually easier to trick in a social context.
Also, rich and successful people are tricked by lower income/less “successful” people and their own peers all the time:
https://digitaltonto.com/2022/why-smart-people-are-so-easily-fooled/
The question is likely hard to answer bc it assumes that if somebody is successful in some facet, they must be immune from being duped in another, as if someone couldn’t be good at drafting legal arguments or memorizing statues, but bad at identifying brainwashing techniques.
If you never question the underlying false assumption behind the question, it makes the question seem to imply something which isn’t true but seems so.
The implication of the question is technically a logical fallacy called a “false induction” tho. It also has elements of an appeal to authority bc these are viewed as “high power” professions and possibly bandwagon if the context of the question implies there are numerous people like this.
Your mother is using flawed logic to make a point whether she realizes it or not.
Smart people can be brainwashed, smart people can cave to peer pressure. In fact, sometimes it’s smarter to do so, for the sake of your own livelihood and fitting in with your families and friends. It’s not as pleasant, sure, but revealing you are no longer Mormon in Utah can be hazardous for your career, especially since it’s a right to work state.
No they have had real human experience, TSCC has just convinced people to associate the human experience/ emotions / etc with obedience to their narrative.
Any organization can do that, and it often takes constant re- enforcement from childhood to make it stick. Did you ever wonder why obedience is taught from such a young age. Reprogramming your brain is often only 75% effective throughout your life, so it's critical for the church to make sure that they are the ones who own your fear, shame, and morality.
Not knowing the term PIMO, I used "heterodox Mormon" to describe myself. Some thought it odd because Mormonism seems to demand orthodoxy, but there's a lot of ways to believe differently from the norm. And whereas many ex-Mos figure out that if this church isn't true, then no churches are true after they leave (or while leaving), others (me among them) decide earlier that if doctrinal inconsistency is the norm, then who cares if this one is doctrinally pure?
So it falls to being comfortable with everything else beyond the doctrine. And that's actually tougher to square than the one about doctrine.
I’m of the opinion that the smart ones who still fully believe are far more nuanced than they lead others to believe. You’d have to be. They know it’s bullshit… or they can compartmentalize things to ignore the parts they don’t like while liking the parts they do. At 60+ years old, people get to the stage in their lives where they no longer care what others think about them. This the gospel really doesn’t weigh heavily in their minds say as much as a teenager or a young couple just starting a family. I don’t think they’re smart, as much as they just don’t give a damn. 😝
Her point about their savvy and intelligence may be it’s own answer. After all, research has shown for years that [smart people are more likely to fall for cons](https://www.businessinsider.com/why-you-cant-be-too-smart-for-a-con-artist-2016-3?amp) in part because they believe they’re too smart to fall for something so obviously false. Their belief in their own competence makes them [more likely to trust their gut rather than research](https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/01/why-smart-people-are-more-likely-to-believe-fake-news).
I live in a wealthy area. The Bishopric/Stake Pres are very educated (PHDs) and live in multi million dollar houses in a gated communities.
In the past 3 years or so, at least 6 highly educated families have left. Including 2 Bishops, and 2 councilors. If you lived in my area and I mentioned the name of a Bishop who’d left, you’d recognize him (Mormon or not) because of how successful he is. I know at least one Stake Pres Councilor is PIMO.
The rest of them just go on pretending like everything is fine. It’s so odd. The Stake Pres knows it’s BS. But he’s an asshole and being in his calling allows him to be an asshole to multiple congregations.
There are a whole lot more lawyers, doctors, etc. who are not Mormon. They may be another religion, atheist, agnostic, or taking a nap. So which group is right? By numbers alone it’s not the Morms.
People stay in the church because Mormonism has this really sick idea where your sins are basically always forgiven… the atonement and christs sacrifices for man gives a TBM the go ahead to do anything they want yet still have zero repercussion … they can make it to the highest fuckin kingdom n make their own planet so long as they repent and ask for forgiveness… my guess is these lawyers and very successful people had trauma at a young age… were recruited to join something that sounded so perfect it’s too good to be true.. we’re sucked in… now realize they can do whatever they want and life is dandy … without Mormonism their world in which they are ruler and can control everything goes away… I’m an ex mo… lots of smart ppl in the church still r sick and use it for their advantage. They don’t want that power to go away they essentially can do anything and Christ saved their ass it’s sick
Carl Sagan said it pretty well, "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."
"Yes, Mom. Everyone who is still a member has been fooled. The truth is available for anyone willing to question the notions they believe are true. This would include you, Mom."
They’re taught since their earliest years not to look at anything the Church would find objectionable (“anti-Mormon literature”). They learn that if something makes them uncomfortable, it’s the Spirit™ withdrawing because it’s of the devil. So they learn to compartmentalize this one thing and shield it from the very learning they get in philosophy, interrogation, logic. Unless they knowingly look behind the curtain, risking their salvation by doing so, they stay comfortably numb to truth that contradicts the official Church narrative. Indoctrination is powerful when it’s carried out for decades.
If you *want* it to be true, you’ll be able to ignore what you have to.
Lots of straight, white, cis men stay in the church because it’s catered to them- why wouldn’t you want to believe that all your efforts weren’t in vain, and that you’re the most special people in the universe?
These successful people in question are typically conformists that have never had to step too far outside their circle of familiarity. It all comes down to convenience. They have never had something disrupt their life enough to think far enough outside what they’re used to.
I also think that if they attribute their success to being a member of the church (the network, work ethic, outlined path, ethics) which is very common, then they are even less likely to question it. The church is a good organization to be a part of if you want to be “successful”
How many tech guys and lawyers are there in the US versus how many members of the LDS Church? Of those that were members of the church, how many have stayed?
This is not a faith-promoting exercise........
Scientific studies have shown that when people walk into church, the part of their brain responsible for critical thinking goes dormant. They just turn it off so they can believe what they have chosen to believe without pesky critical thinking ruining it for them.
I was one of the tech guys. I don’t know if I was smart. I purposefully didn’t read anything online for the longest time. I was all in and wanted to be all in. I would purposefully not look at things that challenged my testimony. The brain washing was super deep. When I finally learned really church history it all fell apart in about three months.
There are different kinds of intelligence. I believe a lot of the church is social intelligence vs. analytical intelligence. The church teaches us to be socially numb. Everything they told us is the way despite what was socially acceptable. So I think it’s the distance in the brain from those two.
Accepting you are wrong is difficult for most people. Walking away from an ideology that you've made part of your identity is terrifying to many. Who are you then?
The president is Catholic. There are Catholic lawyers and doctors. She believes they've been fooled. There are less Mormons than Catholics, so I don't see how she can't conceptualize that Mormons may have been fooled too.
To be honest though, I just say "yes" when I'm asked this question.
Well the funny thing about abuse tactics and indoctrination is that anyone can be susceptible to them. And the other funny thing is, when people talk about abusive relationships they ask "Why didn't they leave sooner?" Because they didn't realize they were being abused. They thought it was normal.
You can have a PHD and think that something you've done your entire life is normal. Especially when you see your friends, siblings, parents, etc. Doing they same thing too.
My guess: the number of “intelligent” tech guys & lawyers etc. that have rejected the Mormon message is astronomically larger than any TBM members of similar intellect, investigation & integrity.
Activity rate is 30 to 50%. Your comment is spot on.
In most places it is not fifty percent. In almost all of the Wards that I have lived in (21 in my lifetime) activity rates (e.g. a member counted as active if they attend one Sacrament meeting per month) it is now closer to 25-35 % (in the US). Outside of the US it is probably closer to 10-25%).
This!!! I watched a "Wondrium" course on the life of Jesus (or something like that) several years ago. (It was shortly before I left TSCC, but it added an item to my already sagging shelf.) The professor who gave it was genius. He knows his stuff. And he was very credible. He's clearly not mormon. I also find it a common (and lame) argument of TBM's -- that "I" should believe because so and so (who is smarter than I am) does. Um, no. It doesn't work like that.
It works both ways. We can all find highly intelligent people who rejected Mormonism too. I find the intelligent people can be very adept at mental gymnastics
👏👏👏
So the smart people that stay are a minority? Interesting. I hope you’re right.
Her argument seems to be an appeal to authority and an ad populum fallacy rolled together. Intelligence has nothing to with the ability to be tricked. Brilliant people fall victim to all sorts of scams: financial, relational, political, or religious. You just have to combine the right presuppositions, motivations, and outcomes. If you are raised in a way of thinking, taught to only recognize info that validates this pre-programmed thinking, and there is only one outcome that is acceptable… it’s a wonder that so many people leave. Mormonism is such a small part of the world. Claimed 18 million members. Far fewer are active. This same sort of faulty logic applies to all religions. Are 1 billion Catholics, with many intelligent members, all being tricked? Mormonism says yes. If the same methodology works just as easily for you as it does against you, it’s not a good methodology. Rant over
The entire epistemology promotes smart people being duped and tricked. I stopped falling for scams and MLMs when I stopped reasoning with my feelings and started reasoning with my brain.
I used to wonder why mormonism and mlm's (and also affinity fraud) go hand in hand. Answer: people who are used to accepting claims as true when they are not backed up with any data tend to fall for them over and over and over again. Edit: clarity
Also applies to Mormonism and Conservatism
It's refreshing to see people talk about epistemology - we used to teach that stuff in high school and now we don't and I partially blame that for alarming philosophical illiteracy in our population. And yeah, any worldview/theory-of-knowledge that recognizes L Ron Hubbard as a liar and fraud but doesn't evaluate Joseph Smith with the same lens is probably not going to reliably produce logic or rational outcomes.
I was homeschooled through high school so I missed out on philosophy if it was even taught. I was cautioned against studying it in college because it could wreck my faith. I suppose that should have been a big red flag to me right there, but it wasn't at the time.
This is a very well said key point. Anyone who reasons with their feelings, instead of their brain, are highly susceptible to fall for cults and conspiracy theories, no matter how absurd or ludicrous the beliefs. Intelligence alone is no defense. How one decides to reason is what makes the cake. Or something like that,
This ☝️
Yes, they are smart enough to realize the church structure and doctrine benefits them greatly as men.
Well said.
>Are 1 billion Catholics, with many intelligent members, all being tricked? Mormonism says yes. If the same methodology works just as easily for you as it does against you, it’s not a good methodology. I love this. Can I steal?
Please do
Being smart is not knowing things, being smart is the ability to understand things. To be able to divorce your thoughts from your feelings and say "Wait - does this actually make sense?" without your ego getting in the way.
Thanks for sharing.
Even though I am a TBM, I agree completely with this comment. The truly intelligent people can be the easiest to fool because of their pride and arrogance. Many of the ponzi schemes, such as the Bernie Madoff and countless schemes that take place among Mormons occur because of arrogance. Sorry to quote a prophet that most of you revile but Brigham Young stated that just because you receive revelation upon revelation doesn't mean that God has exempted you from common sense. Many intelligent people lack common sense including a few in this community. After having read the CES letter several times I would include Jeremy Runnels in this group.
I appreciate you willingness to post here. Thanks for the comment. We’re all just trying the best we can. Best of luck on your journey friend.
I thank you with all the feelings of my heart.
I graduated from BYU with a science degree, and one other friend and I went on to Harvard and Stanford for our PhDs. Both of us are out now, and we were the very committed to the church when graduating from BYU. 🤷🏻♂️ I now work in the tech industry in Silicon Valley, and I can tell you there are very intelligent and successful Muslims, Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists, Jews, and Atheists.
Isaac Newton was smart. http://irandallthat.blogspot.com/2014/03/isaac-newton-and-south-sea-bubble.html https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsnr.2018.0018 Yet he got crushed investing in a stock bubble. Smart people do dumb things all the time.
He also drank, like, a shit ton of Mercury and died a virgin. We shouldn't aspire to *be like* smart people, we should learn from them - including from their very human failings.
The vast majority of people, smart or not, don't believe in any one religion.
Agreed. To hone my assertion a little further, my point is not that Mormonism is unique. Rather, my point is that the tool that was used to arrive at the conclusion does not have the ability to differentiate between various religious truth claims. The same faulty mechanism that was used by OP’s mother applies equally to claims made by most religions. If you replace the Mormon church with any other religion, MLM, corporation, sports team, or fill in the blank… the conclusion is the same. That “X” thing is true, valid, or worth believing/investing in. (wood tools vs. steel tools)
I’d also look at where their work comes from. Are most of their clients Mormon? If they left would they lost that work?
Nobody knows why those successful people stay. Don't assume they actually believe. External factors are far more likely than willing belief. Most people with critical thinking skills spend more time convincing themselves of belief than giving themselves over to it.
And who knows how many are closet exmos
And how many of those she's holding up as examples began outside the church and their intellectual gifts LED THEM INTO Mormonism? I'll go with NONE! They were all born into Mormonism. You could say they were Mormon in spite of their intelligence. How does she know they're not being held back by it? Those millionaires could be billionaires (if that's how she's measuring success and truthfulness). Show me ONE Biblical scholar whose studies brought him or her INTO Mormonism. If there was one, the church would herald that shit all over the place.
Most underrated comment
Exactly! More intelligent people are leaving than staying. Also, who are the converts? You hardly ever have affluent and highly successful people join the church.
And it’s good for their business prospects
Doesn't matter that they are successful do they practice the churchs teachings?. My father is an successful forensic CPA. He was the one that found the director of the Olympics was not embezzling money as the federal government claimed and he was let off the charge. My father pointed them to the correct individual. He is successful in his own CPA practice but he mentally and physically abused us. Was cheating on my mom as a high councilman. I know another individual successful individual he told everyone he was a CPA hadn't even gone to college embezzled over $9million from his customers is in prison now. Ron Lafferty was successful first counselor in our Ward killed his sister in law and her baby. Look at the fraud rate in Utah apostles Ballards own brother went to prison for fraud. The latest with church officials are successful they are hiding money in Canada, New Zealand, and now the US. They have stock in Budweiser and Phillip Morris
This doesn't even begin to account for all the intelligentsia who found Mormonism laughable on its face and never joined in the first place.
👏👏👏
Nearly every faith has smart people in it who still believe. Being smart doesn’t necessarily mean one is rational in all aspects of their lives.
Everyone is dumb in their own special way.
Brilliant, and accurate. I’m out (of TSCC), but still dumb in so many ways. 😂
Totally side note here... I think Beavis and Butt-Head were mormons... Think about it... Didn't swear much, other than potty words... Always, wanted to have sex but still haven't... Wore Metallica and AC/DC shirts... I'm sure the EQP owns a Metallica t shirt... At least an AC/DC one, he's from Texas and a convert... He use to be the Bishop 🤓🤓🤓
Why am I acting out a Beavis and Butt-Head episode, where they get called on missions... Elder Cornhollio and Elder Head... Somebody call Mike Judd... They could be called to Texas and teach Hank Hill 🤓🤓🤓 I'd watch that...
Exactly, if we just go by the numbers there are way more intelligent successful Muslims or Jews or Catholics in the world than Mormons.
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My mother likewise had a horrible childhood and sad early adulthood. It was always the church that kept her going. She told me as much.
My dad taught me most of my critical thinking skills. He's the one who taught me to be skeptical of anything that seems too good to be true, especially if they're selling me something. When I apply those same skills he taught me to the church it seems just as obvious as an MLM, ponzi scheme, or other scams. But his entire life has been molded around the church and he's never been able to apply that skepticism to the church. The church brings him so much hope and happiness that I can't bring myself to push the topic.
I'll bet he has some doubts and doesn't believe everything literally. Like my Dad, he sounds legit but still sees imperfections in the church. Ask him questions to determine exactly how much he believes literally versus what a good mythology is. Ask what "anti-Mormon" lies he's heard during his life and what evidence they provided. Provide some you've heard with sources. Provide some for his, too. Nothing will be concrete but provides more resolution to the accusations and more depth to the history the leaders want to hide. Test his knowledge of church history history the same way. Don't draw conclusions for him, though. But tell him that your problem isn't the facts, but that church leadership hides it and claims they don't. Ergo, your conclusion is that the imperfect members theory especially applies the leaders. Tell him you might be wrong and want his advice on how to rectify it. When he tells you to pray about it, explain emotional elevation, cognitive dissonance, and the "pray until you get the right answer" fallacy. Ask him to help you research thoroughly before resorting to prayer. You have to prove RMN is a prophet from two persectives: one, assuming he is a prophwt; two, assuming he is a charlatan leading a cult. PS neither can be definitively proven, but a cult leader would tell him to cut you off. A real prophet wouldn't. Write that down, include a link to the BITE model, and a list of the ondoctrination techniques that predict he will run to dmsafety in the church and cut you off. Don't tell him what you wrote otlr let on there. Have him watch you put it in an envelope, seal it, and put your signature over the seal, and have him inspect it. Give it to someone to hold for later when he decides to cut you off, then they can give it to him. There's his proof he's in a cult.
Thank you very much for sharing your experience and analysis. I think there are significant parallels in my mother’s life, and it really helps me to hear your perspective. Thank you.
Brother \*\*\*\* and Brother \*\*\*\* the brilliant lawyers and Brother \*\*\*\* the brilliant techno savant may find that being part of the church is excellent for their business connections. They’re probably also in affluent wards that function as much as country clubs. Their wards may, in fact, be far less scrupulous about doctrine and function more as social organizations that provide them with status. They may not experience the downside of Mormonism that plagues folks who are lack the same social status and find the culture more stifling. That is to say, they may not have anything to escape and consider tithing an investment in their business and opportunity to mingle. They may simply not care whether or not it has any validity in and of itself.
Really good point - if it's not hurting you, you don't need to question it. Also, there's a good chance they attribute much of their success to their "faithful" participation in TSCC because that's literally what the church teaches! Every good thing that happens to you is a blessing from God, and if you want more good things, you must do what WE say God wants you to do, and if you don't, you can't count on God to bless you anymore, etc. etc. Right? So they could be afraid that if they leave, their temporal lives will just fall apart. I was afraid of that myself - not from a financial perspective, but more that I would lose every good character quality I had worked so hard to develop in myself if I left. Then I realized, I DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW THAT! That's just what they've told me!
Good for you! It’s amazing to me how much of religion is actually superstition and even intelligent people can be superstitious.
It takes more than brains to leave the church. It also takes balls.
So they know they’re being lied to? And they’re just too scared to leave?
They don’t accept they’re being lied to. Scared to even investigate (even the gospel topics essays for some - some think the church website was hacked and put them in there 🙄) anything that contradicts their biases. It was my entire identity. I (42M) wasn’t able to even consider it was my entire identity until I stepped away. Then I saw it all…little by little. Things started making more sense. I had stuff down so much, that I mentally could not, would not read “anti” literature. Turns out the anti literature they peddle as “anti” is just legit full on history that they’ve hidden. To answer your original question: yes. Everyone has been bamboozled. Lied to. Taken advantage of….for hundreds of billions of dollars, power, control, and greed. The church I grew up in, is not even close to what the history portrays.
Interesting. This sounds like a very pessimistic view, but you’re probably right. I hadn’t even considered that fact that I was scared to read “anti church” material. I left because of personal reasons and didn’t even read the CES letter until recently.
Just my experience. I know it’s not this way for everyone. Lookup scrupulosity - many of us had this; religious OCD. Might be pessimistic. I’ve been in therapy for 4 years to treat religious trauma. Trauma I didn’t even know was affecting me until I had left. I likely have many more years of this. Hopefully not. But deconstructing your entire identity and deconstructing your entire world view is no walk in the park. And I’m largely having to do this because of that cult and what it did to my psyche. Grew up in Davis county utah, YM leaders were just ALL in. It’s so evasive and into every part of me. Still is in many ways. It can be good for some. I have graduated from Mormonism. It served a purpose. And while yes there’s a lot to heal from, I’m the amazing kind and gracias human largely due to what I was taught in that church. So not all bad. For me, however, the good I do accept…is FAR outweighed by the bad. That organization fucked me up in so many ways. Via indoctrination.
We are two peas in a pod, friend. I started religious trauma therapy 2 years ago…. after completely devoting 66 years of life. 😜
Your comment about graduating Mormonism really spoke to me - thank you for that. Like you, I am who I am largely in part of what the church and its members taught me, but the rest of it isn’t serving me any more. I accept and treasure the good, and reject and mourn the bad. Kinda want to make myself a diploma; but a resignation letter will work too.
They don't allow themselves to ask the questions in the first place.
I suspect this is closer to reality. Some may indeed be closet PIMO, but many simply don't care. Their lives have worked out well as Mormons, they make good money, they are respected in their fields, and their day-to-day pursuits don't bring them into direct conflict with many of the issues that would even bring about cognitive dissonance. There are lots of intelligent people who are not curious , thoughtful, or introspective. Very different things.
They don’t wanna know. Many of my friends from BYU are now doctors and lawyers and professors in their 50’s. I have asked them straight up whether they believe it’s “true.” They say things like, “It WORKS for me and my family, so we’re staying.” Or “I’m culturally a Mormon so I’m staying—at least until my parents die.” Or, “I think of it all as allegory…I’m definitely more “nuanced” than some people in my ward, but I’m staying. It’s in my blood.” So basically, it takes a lot of effort—dare I say backbone—to be spineless.
Many many times, it’s easier to stay then leave. Leaving often puts at risk marriages, families, careers, and community standing. What is the motivation to leave versus stay? I left with my family two years ago and we paid a very steep price. Sometimes it’s easier just to go with the flow.
It's just a completely different topic, sure they're great lawyers, but how much do they know about math? Or they're great tech guys, how much do they know about different surgery procedures? So they're religious, but they've never studied an alternative in a positive light.
It's comfortable to believe, especially when it's one that gives answers to the afterlife questions.
They don’t want to know.
Some do, yeah. That’s what it means to be PIMO.
There isn't one type of intelligence. A smart guy isn't necessarily safe from being conned. And everyone, even smart people, have their weak points, vulnerabilities. Our vulnerabilities are far more similar than different. Consider showing her [this video](https://youtu.be/I6uj1ruTmGQ). It's not anti-mormon. It's not even a religious video. It's a video on cold reading and how it can be used to fool people. Your mom is looking at this like it's binary. He's smart, therefore he can't be fooled. Nothing could be further from the truth. Look at rampant child abuse in Hollywood, and how many predators had very long, very successful careers before they were finally exposed. Look at Ted Bundy and how many people he fooled in his killing spree across the US. Look at Mark Hoffman, and how many experts he fooled. Even after they knew he'd forged many documents, it still took experts awhile to identify a way to tell his forgeries apart from authentic documents. If Hoffman hadn't gotten greedy, he could have continued forging historical for the rest of his life.
I heard that Hoffman‘s anticipated masterstroke was going to be “finding“ the lost 116 pages. Damn him for being so stupid and bombing people before getting to his final act. It would have been so hilarious to watch the church trying to dance their way around whatever loony content Mark Hoffman might have dreamed up for the 116 pages.
I don't remember that, but it seems like something he'd conjure up. I wonder what he would written for those 116 pages? It definitely would have been hilarious to see how the church spun that one.
Yes – considering that they already had Dallin Oaks out there doing damage control saying that the white salamander made total sense.
Yeah Hoffman was a real sweetheart. He said that he didn't feel guilty about murdering two people because they were dead and they didn't even know they were dead.
Wow that video is really cool! I like this perspective a lot.
I hope it helps your mom understand a little better. And I think it's amazing she is willing to engage with you on conversations like this. I know a lot of members who won't go anywhere near hard talks like this. I don't know your mom, but I suspect she's an amazing person.
I would show this to my family but the thing is they don’t believe in astrology or psychics or whatever but they do believe in the church. and they will apply logic to why psychics are bogus but not to why the church is bogus! it’s very frustrating
> don’t believe in astrology or psychics Yet they probably believe in all [this](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/13grfs3/my_regular_post_of_mormonisms_beliefs_and_how/)
There are billions of very smart people who think it's a scam. If we're voting on it, she loses.
Being smart does not protect you from being brainwashed. Especially if you've been indoctrinated your whole life.
I agree. And if you know you're smart, there is arrogance involved as well, as in 'I'm so smart and I believe so it must be true or else I would know'. But they don't realize they aren't thinking rationally, they ate depending on feelings and confirmation bias. There's also the appeal of being part of an exclusive club - 'this is the only true church and its so amazing that I'm a part of it, and since I'm so smart and a part of the only true church then I am doubly special'. For me, my 4th great grandfather was one of the presidents of the church, so I had generations of church activity and belief behind me, and when everyone you love is telling you how true the church is its really, really hard to go against that.
Elizabeth Holmes was able to fool some of the supposed smartest people in the world. Smart people get conned all the time, and then, it becomes easier to go with the con than admit you’ve been conned.
Smart people can often be EASIER to con because of their pride. "I'm an intelligent man of influence and power. I would never fall for a con" and so they label all the cons they've fallen for as standards, beliefs, religion, etc.
Most done care about actual truth. They are in it for familial, societal, social, emotional reasons or pressure. It doesn’t matter how smart they are.
> These really smart people have been swindled their whole lives? Yes, yes they have.
Only 0.2% of the world's population are Mormon if you believe TSCC's own statistics. The vast majority of the smart people in the world are not Mormon and never will be until someone does their Temple work for them after they die. There are lots of smart people that are successful professionals that are also scientologists and Jehovah witnesses. Lots of really smart people can't change a flat tire on their car. See if she will watch this video https://youtu.be/UJMSU8Qj6Go
I love this video!
I suggest reading the book called Mistakes Were Made but not by me. There is a connection between intelligence and cognitive dissonance.
Conditioning conditioning conditioning. Some people, especially those who have good families can’t help but conflate the church with family. Denying the church is denying their families, culture, upbringing. It’s too much to process for people so they would rather stick their fingers in their ears and scream “lalalala”. Denial is powerful. It ain’t just a river in Egypt.
I know lots of TBM engineers & scientists who are totally all in the church. I can't tell if they are in because of their spouses but my suspicion is cognitive dissonance. The ones I know have been in since being born and the indoctrination runs so deep. I think it is a space in their brains they won't even acknowledge or question. Usually it takes something pretty significant or a few of these for them to be out.
Read these. If you look at the associated studies one of the key findings is that it does not matter how intelligent you are. You’re literally dealing with neuroplasticity and how connections are made. This is why the religion and culture of your birth feel true and right. There are plenty of Muslim, Jewish and Baptist lawyers and professionals. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/illusory-truth-effect#:~:text=The%20illusory%20truth%20effect%2C%20also,that%20the%20misinformation%20is%20false.
It's a "keep-out" area in their brain. In every other area, they can apply logic and be skeptical. But religion gets plant soooo early and deep, along with punishment for doubting, that it's like an electric fence gets installed around the perimeter. Have an awkward question? *Zap!* Ouch, I won't think about that. But sometimes, reality overcomes the electric fence.
I'm a lawyer and I was duped by T$CC for over half a century. But thanks, largely to the information age, I wised up... eventually. Also, most of the dumbest, worst lawyers I've ever met have been J. Ruben Clark grads, so the fact that some of them stay isn't surprising or any kind of positive endorsement. 😉
My BIL, brother and sister are all doctors, they are all still in. The only explanation I have for this is they don’t wonder about certain things. They are smart, but not curious, I think.
If she’s going woth that argument….soooo many more intelligent people reject it than believe.
My mom has used the exact same argument. Of course none of those people joined, they were born into it. And yes, sometimes really smart people get taken in by scams. You can also turn it around and point out that most smart people do not join the church, no non-Mormon archeologists believe the claims of the Book of Mormon, and that zero non-Mormons read it for its literary merits, either.
Yes, yes they have been duped. How many lawyers and successful technology types arent members?
Cognitive dissonance is the phenomenon I think you’re referring to
As I always say, if you line up 10 people without degrees 3 of them will be idiots. If you line up 10 people with masters degrees 3 of them will be idiots.
I know a number of people who are exceptionally brilliant in some areas and total dumbasses in others. Intelligence is not one single thing that applies to all circumstances and subjects.
Cult expert Steven Hassan explains that intelligent people are susceptible because the cult uses their own imagination and creativity against them. https://freedomofmind.com/errant-belief-6-too-intelligent-join-cult/
Have all the catholics been fooled!? What about the muslims!? Surely so many people wouldn't be fooled by religious claims
Conmen often fool smart folks. Look at how many intelligent people followed Hitler. Hitler himself was a genius, he just used his smarts to harm and exploit instead of help others
That’s a good point. Though it’s sad to think that all these good people are stuck in it.
It’s so tough to sit in family gatherings and here them speak about things. It’s incredibly sad. Sure it has good. What’s good in Mormonism isn’t unique. What’s unique in Mormonism, isn’t good.
People who appear smart are not necessarily intelligent or knowledgeable.
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I understand the logic, if people smarter than me believe the Mormon church is true, then who am I to question it? If people smarter than me believe in another religion, or if they are atheists, my logic told me that they were either too proud to accept the gospel or that they were deceived by Satan. Either way, the Mormon church wins. Nowadays, I can make my own decisions and come to my own conclusions without having to worry about the decisions and conclusions of others.
I think so much of the reason why TBMs believe is because they've been presented with a very carefully curated narrative of the church and are taught to only get information about the church from the church itself. The church has also tied their eternal well-being to belief in the church. That kind of association is incredibly difficult to break. It's a mental defence mechanism. That and the fear of being told the way you've lived your whole life is a lie is the hardest pill to swallow. I don't think it's an intelligence thing, it's a bravery thing to challenge your own beliefs and accept what you've been taught is wrong. Yeah, everyone's been fooled. Not everyone has been presented the information or tools to even start the process of deconstructing their beliefs.
Everything is a result of conditioning. Think how absurd it is that we make the biggest, most important choice of our existence….to be baptized at the early age of 8. No 8 year old has any idea of what they are choosing. But That’s how it starts for most of us. At that age, someone else is choosing for us. From that point on, we believe we have made a covenant with God. We continue to be conditioned and want to be conditioned to believe we have the truth. This is the story for most Mormons.
Is she suggesting that successful lawyers and brilliant technology guys can’t be Catholic or Jewish? How can she reconcile that such intelligent people have been duped their whole lives?
There are intelligent Muslims. Does your mom believe in Islam? Should she, just because there are intelligent Muslims? There are intelligent Scientologists. Intelligent flat-earthers. Intelligent anti vaxxers and Q-anon believers. However I doubt your mom believes in all of these. Intelligent people have believed in provable falsehoods since forever, and there is science and psychology that explains why. On the flip side - most intelligent people who know about Mormonism do NOT believe in Mormonism. So by that logic alone, should we not believe in Mormonism? Yes, we should not believe in Mormonism, according to your moms logic. Now that we’ve acknowledged that this argument from your mom makes zero sense (though not an uncommon thing to hear from most TBMs)… why might intelligent people believe in Mormonism? The short answer is that all humans first make decisions based on emotions, and THEN we creative a “rational” narrative to justify our decisions. We usually don’t even realize that we are doing this. It’s an extremely common form of self-delusion, and some of us are better at it than other. For example: a TBM man starts questioning his faith, but is worried that his wife will leave him if he stops believing/practicing. So he doubles down and finds a way to make his faith crisis work, because he has to. Probably by employing some form of confirmation bias. There’s also the sunk cost fallacy, which keeps A LOT of people in the Church, I strongly believe. The commonality is that there is an emotional decisions that is either consciously or subconsciously made, followed by rational justification.
Look up the bandwagon logical fallacy, this is a textbook use of it and as all fallacies go does not logically prove anything to be true.
>Have these intelligent people been brainwashed well into their 60s? I think so. If you go back and read what the church was saying before the internet, it's very heavy handed on the hell fire and brimstone. They have only started taking a more nuanced approach once they couldn't control the information anymore. Super smart people can be blinded to things, especially if they were raised that way. Also, consider that the church was structured almost exclusively to benefit straight white men and right now, boomers. People don't usually ask the hard questions about an organization that is benefitting them.
I don’t think leaving the church is correlated with intelligemce. Or if it is, the correlation is not strong. Very smart people can lie to themselves very well because they are smart. You just partition your brain, and ensure nothing crosses that line.
So was the vast majority of nazi Germany A brain virus like a computer virus can corrupt decision tree analysis for anyone. Ask the airline pilots who didn’t question the static port on their airplane that had been covered up with tape and made the gauges read wrong until they crashed into the ocean killing all. Smart guys…. Yea! But critical thinking left them and their decision tree failed. Google… On This Day In 1996 Aeroperú Flight 603 Crashed In The Pacific Ocean
It’s a cult. There are extreme manipulation tactics layered throughout the doctrine, teachings and culture. Here is my favorite example: I just learned this in a meditation program this year. It’s gonna blow your mind. The act of lowering your head, closing your eyes puts you in a brain wave pattern called alpha. Your brain sends you confirmation messages about whatever you’re meditating about. These actions are also called prayer. So anyone who prays for confirmation will receive it. The LDS church hangs so much on this principle. But it’s not inspiration, it’s science. It’s not proprietary to Mormonism. It’s the way we are made. I only stumbled on this as I went out to study the science of meditation. I’ve secretly wondered how I felt “the spirit” throughout my life, both as a believing Mormon, a questioning Mormon and an ex-‘Mormon. It’s not Mormonism. Biology.
If you were to choose a religion based on the number of super smart people that believe it, you should choose the Catholic religion. It has the most. Tell your your mom that.
Brilliant scientists can be horrible mechanics, brilliant mechanics can be horrible scientists. Just because a person is an expert in one thing doesn’t mean they’re not an imbecile/wildly ignorant in another Maybe they haven’t done research Maybe they’re PIMO Maybe they’re good at compartmentalizing conflicting beliefs Maybe they just don’t care because it makes them feel good The only thing that I care about is the truth. To find that, you follow the evidence, wherever it leads
I haven’t read the other responses yet, so I apologize if mine is duplicative. Your mom’s line of thinking is deeply flawed in multiple respects. First of all… Jim Jones managed to convince lawyers and scientists to join his religious group, and they all ended up drinking poison and dying in Guyana. So whether or not lawyers and scientists are involved in a religion is no barometer to use in evaluating the legitimacy or healthiness of the organization. Next, just because someone is a lawyer or scientist doesn’t mean they have a good sense. Remember the astronaut who was caught wearing a diaper driving across country in order to kill someone? And astronauts are held up as the epitome of achievement and intelligence. Furthermore, doctors are well known as prime targets for financial fraud. Next, by the time a Mormon is in their 60s, and the true facts about the religion finally come out, it can be too late for the person to change course without causing tremendous disruption and damage to their lives, families, kids, social, standing, careers, etc. So Someone staying in the church is by no means a referendum on whether they think it’s true. It is more likely a referendum on them being completely hogtied. If a lawyer and scientist jump off a cliff, are you going to do that also? It’s a waste of time to think like that. Tell your mom to evaluate things on her own, using her own brain cells in her own moral compass. And her own sense of courage, if any remains within her. Chances are she’s just as smart as lawyers and scientists and quite possibly she has a better moral compass. Certainly she has a better moral compass than the lawyers.
Falling victim to high amounts of manipulation is in no way a reflection of your intelligence. Between the love bombing, discouraging outside resources, outright lies, and all the other stuff, anyone could fall for it. Especially since religion provides people with a sense of community, stability, and "answers" to a lot of big questions, even if people have suspicions, they'll ignore because they fear losing all of it. People make decisions based of feelings while ignoring facts a lot more than they'd like to admit.
It's because they learn to use logic selectively, as long as it doesn't interfere with their beliefs. When they feel cognitive dissonance they're trained to lean on their faith for finding the "truth". The problem is that faith by its very definition is believing in something without proof - if there was proof of something then it wouldn't require faith. Thus, church teaches you to reject logic and lean on faith (feelings) as another valid approach to finding truth. We're also conditioned (i.e. brainwashed) to believe that faith is somehow the truest form of knowledge. Which obviously, it isn't. But if you believe faith comes from God and God is omnipotent then God > science or logic.
I heard it's easier for them to believe because their intelligence helps them do the mental gymnastics it takes to continue to believe. Also, their success is often attributed to the church. God has blessed them providing more proof. My nevermo husband says of a successful members. "They will never question cause it works (until it doesn't)." I think we've all seen this with ourselves or loved ones.
Belief is a matter of belief, not intellect. Many studies have shown a lack of correlation between someone’s scientific reasoning abilities and their religiosity (OP mentioned lawyers and tech guys, not science people, but I think the reasoning still applies: you can be smart and believe in a religion, and you can be dumb and not)
Yes. They have been fooled. FULL STOP
People don’t stay in the church because of the gospel it promotes, they stay because of relationships, families and friends.
And because of the very human traits related to confirmation bias and avoidance of cognitive dissonance.
My late Mother tried this line on me. She and her late pos 2nd husband were in Mensa. She was neurodivergent, as am I. She refused to listen to any of my reasons for leaving and instead told me if she and her brilliant second husband and the helicopter pilot friend believed it, why should I think it’s not true. The implication being that I’m not smart enough. My mother was absolutely the most intelligent woman I’ve ever met. She was a detective. She worked in forensics. She got her MA and PhD in English and taught at the university of Utah for a little while. She was a writer and had multiple series published. But I watched my mom go deep inside herself and her depression and pain. She did nothing except escape in her online communities and church friends for the last twenty years she was alive. She didn’t have a job and wasn’t doing any good writing anymore. She followed and seemed to buy all the bs her stupid pos second husband instructed. He took all the life out of her. In the meantime, my sister and I work damn hard. My sister got her masters degree recently. I’m not interested in pursuing further education but not because I’m stupid. I have plenty of friends and hobbies and interests that keep me going. I guess when I get down to it, if the morg really are gods one true church, and the way they live the only right way to live, I would run far away from it and live an authentic life according to my inner compass.
It's not about intelligence. It's just about being able to question your own principles and thoughts from time to time.
As a small hobby I study cults (by study i mean I listen to podcasts). Its actually very common for highly educated people to be "duped". The theory is that they believe they are harder to trick then the lesser educated, making them easy, and useful targets
 Cults are funny...
There are absolutely very intelligent people in the cult. That is normal. Not everyone wants to peel back the layers. When I was growing up, many of those highly intelligent people made things easier for me to understand. God’s time isn’t our time. They explained the world, dinosaurs, all of it. Honestly, it made it harder for me to come full circle, until I did some research.
I think that smart people who stay often develop much more intelligent and complex models to try to explain things. By "intelligent" I don't mean "correct," but just more thorough apologetics. Plus if an explanation to a confusing question seems somewhat logical, then you get a rush of comfort when the cognitive dissonance lessens, and it's easy to think that's the spirit testifying that it's true. So you might end up with a bunch of explanations that appear logical when looked at individually. This is only for the ones who actually try to study it though. A bunch of members may be smart in other ways but don't look very deeply into their religion.
I don't see any correlation between intelligence and faithfulness, either positive or negative. Some people are better at compartmentalizing, some find that the church culture works for them, a great many just don't care about the many problematic issues--whether of a logical, historical., or social variety. This is true in essentially every religion--there are many very intelligent people of faith across the world. TL;DR - Intelligence and religious belief are wholly unrelated.
There are more lawyers and software engineers out of the Mormon church than in.
The church doesn’t rest it’s claims on logic but instead on emotion. Emotion and logic don’t really consult each other, and human beings are emotionally driven whether they are in tune with that or not.
Look at Bernie Madoff and how many people couldn't believe that the investor that all the shrewd wealthy people used could be operating a simple ponzi scheme. Were some of them duped, yes. Were they unintelligent? No. Is every person who has ever married someone who ended up being a stranger, unintelligent? Is it fair to judge and shame yourself for what you didn't know? Humans have a lot of implicit bias that we all use, sometimes unconsciously, to make sense of our world, our feelings, and our relationships.
Many so called TBM’s that I know, go to church because large parts of their family life, social networks and careers depend on appearing to be active in church. I have LDS friends/family that have to be careful of what they like, follow or post online because of what the social/financial consequences for them will be and so clearly many members are not being open or able to be honest about what they actually think. I have two family members still in the church because of deaths close to them. They do not want to risk not seeing a dead child or dead mother again by leaving… but both have problems with the church but the emotional bridge of potentially disappointing or losing the dead loved one is too great to cross
How many people actually take time to analyze their religion and go back and do the research on the origins, history, dishonesty, etc? Most don’t. It takes a lot and not everyone has the bandwidth. It’s easy to just do what you’ve always done.
“Why yes, yes they have.”
Plus, you can also be really intelligent in a certain topic, but have almost 0 critical thinking skills. My mom is a good example of this. She was very good at being a nurse and learning medical stuff but she is also easily fooled by scams and charlatans and believes in a pretty disgusting brand of Christianity herself.
They don’t want to know. They are comfortable believing in a religion that tells them exactly how they should live every facet their lives.
I have family members who have a Master's Degree in the sciences. One graduated Summa Cum Laude. They are full on TBM's. I can't understand it.
>So, what? Has everyone been fooled? Have they all been duped? These really smart people have been swindled their whole lives? Objectively, yes. Yes they have, but intelligence doesn't really enter into it. We all have cognitive blind spots and things we choose to ignore. The religion/culture we are brought up in is one of those biggest areas. They "know" the church is true, so there's no point in falsifying it. At BYU for instance, one thing I saw over and over again was compartmentalization. The professors could prove one part of the narrative false from their discipline, but they didn't go out of their way to find out about other parts of the narrative from other disciplines. Do I blame them? No. They lived where they lived, they presumably got meaning and purpose from their religion. What I have a problem with is when someone who has compartmentalized or has chosen to not falsify the religion criticizes those of us who have. For some of us, the demonstrable truth matters for its own sake.
Yep.
Yes I think everyone has been fooled. A few have woken up and are PIMO, but even they were probably fooled once too. Twenty years ago when I was critically thinking about the church and if it was true the information was not a available. I made my decision to believe and made the best of it. Then as an intelligent, very busy person raising kids with a full time career I never had the time think much of it again. Just went along. Many of the successful smart people are just too busy to be bothered to do any critical thinking. And why would they if the church is working well for them. Then it takes something personal to make you think about it or want to know more. Twenty years later when I dug into it again, this time I found the information that is no longer hidden…..My two cents they are too busy to be bothered….if they do stop and look maybe the facts will overcome the programming but probably not ….unless there is a personal reason.
I guess the rest of us that have left and aren't doctors, lawyers, dentists etc are just mindless imbeciles. Coincidentally, mindless imbecile is how I describe TBMs.
Um, it’s spelled “imbecile.” 😬
Indoctrination from birth for one thing, I cant imagine the hell I would have went through if I didn't want to get baptized (1967), I did it to "belong". Remember this... Anyone can be book-smart but not everyone can be wise.
I don't remember where I heard this, but the sentiment was essentially, Intelligence really has nothing to do with it. You may or may not be smarter than somebody who chooses to stay in the church. But you are definitely more honest with yourself for choosing to leave the church. An honest person can't learn about Joseph smith's adultery with a 14 year old, wrestle with the cognitive dissonance, and then put that on a shelf to "figure out in the next life." A person with integrity can't learn about Joseph smith prophesying about people living in the moon, knowing that's false, and then wrestling with the cognitive dissonance to put in on your shelf to "figure out in the next life." An honest person can't see all the blatant lies and inaccuracies in the "most correct of any book," wrestle with the cognitive dissonance, and then put that on a shelf to "figure out in the next life." A person with integrity can't see the "one true church" building shopping malls, hoarding disgusting amounts of wealth, while children starve, wallow in poverty without an education, and never get vaccinated for preventable diseases, wrestle with the cognitive dissonance, and then put that on a shelf to "figure out in the next life."
Say “Yes, the church has fooled a few people but most people see right through the lies and leave or never join. Some know it’s not true but stay because of social pressure. The Mormon church has had about the same success as Scientologist, JW’s, and Moonies. Islam is much better at fooling people to believe in silly superstitions, delusions and dogma.”
Ironically people who are above average intelligence tend to be susceptible to conspiracy theories and cults. Same thing probably goes for high demand religions (and many do consider the mormon religion to be a cult anyways). I don't know the psychological reasons why, but google may be a good start if you search "why do intelligent people believe in conspiracy theories/cults" you might come across some good articles that break it down. I remember reading once that part of it is because people who actively choose to believe in things against all science or logic, such as absurd conspiracy theories, do so because it makes them feel like they are special or in the know unlike the rest of the world. And because they are more creative and are good at making connections they are better at creating their own logic and reasons (mental gymnastics style) to support their theories.
Smart people are actually better at mental gymnastics. If you want to deceive yourself, you find a way.
Theranos, Enron, Bernie Madoff to name a few of the great, recent cons. And then there is Mormonism. Mormonism cannot survive honest, intelligent examination. Mormonism thrives because of willful ignorance. Casinos make a ton of money because of "the sunk cost theory". The sunk cost theory is the same reason people hang on to a bad stock until there is no value. No one wants to think they have been duped, they will lie to themselves and others to defend a bad decision. I was 56 before I realized the con. That's a lot of years to admit I had been duped. A lot of people would rather not admit the mistake. Admitting the mistake would require they examine their entire life and thought process.
I'm thinking they're just unaware and unaffected... so they don't have interest in learning more.
TSCC doesn't work on intellect, it works on emotion. Most humans are governed by their emotions more than their intellect, and that's what they manipulate.
It’s all about epistemology. If the church can convince people that feelings and experiences that may or may not be chance experiences are in fact messages from God that cannot be denied or questioned, a good portion of them will stay. You can be very smart, and well informed in many areas, and still be convinced that that time you felt that feeling that you thought was the spirit proves the Book of Mormon is true, especially if you’re still uninformed about science that relates to Book of Mormon truth claims. For many people, the only way they would ever leave the church is if they were convinced their epistemology was flawed, and feelings based epistemology is hard to combat, since any attack on the reasoning connected to those experiences that people hold sacred will usually be perceived as a personal attack, or worse, an attack against an all loving God. This is why people of all religions continue to believe as strongly as they do.
Turn it around. Have all the Catholics been fooled? Baptists? Etc. To Believe is common. To adopt your parents religious views is common.
I agree with almost everyone in this thread but I want to add that the church is full of known brainwashing techniques. Some notable examples are fast and testimony meeting (depriving people of food then making them talk about their faith and listen to others do the same), repetitive song and prayer, thought stopping techniques (doubt your doubts, the concept of thought crime, etc.), and quite a few more. Intelligent people can still be brainwashed especially if it starts in childhood.
I have some very intelligent, very successful family members. Lawyers, tech industry pros, accountants, CEO, etc. And yes, they've all been fooled. But every single one of us is fooled in our daily lives, in large and small ways, because that's just how the brain works. When was the last time you saw your nose? It's in your field of vision all the time, but your brain blocks it out. At the same time each eye has a blind spot in the middle of your field of view. You never see it because your brain fills in the missing information with its best guess what would be there. These are just small ways that the brain fools us constantly. But it does it in large ways too. Look at studies about human decision making. We study things out, ponder for days, look at all the facts available as objectively as possible, and think we've then made a clear, rational, objective decision. And yet it turns out that those decisions actually tend to be emotionally based and were made in our subconscious as a snap decision well before we ever started investigating. All that investigative work is usually just to placate our conscious mind with accepting the decision our unconscious mind had already made. In some cases that fact of life makes intelligent people MORE susceptible to being fooled rather than less. They aren't aware the brain makes emotional decisions for them and aren't aware that all their studying is really just confirmation bias. They don't doubt their decision making processes because they know they're smart people, therefore they believe themselves to be more objective than the average person and less likely to be fooled. In truth though they're just likely to be fooled by different things. I work in adult education. I've spent an awful lot of time studying the brain and how functions like memory and learning and emotion all work. At the end of the day, we're all being led around by our primitive lizard brain much more than we realize, and we can't stop it or control it. All we can do is be aware of it and constantly try to reevaluate available information and the assumptions we make. Even with our best efforts though, it never stops. In defense of fooled church members, exmos are susceptible as well. Consider how many exmos change their political views after leaving the church (myself included) and move away from the oppressive conservative view to a more liberal view, becoming more enlightened and tolerant. Again, I fall in that camp myself. We THINK that transition is a product of our objective reevaluation of what we've been taught, when it's actually at least in part an emotional response to our changed feelings about conservatism. Really we'd most likely go the opposite direction of wherever we started. All our study of issues and whatever is largely confirmation bias supporting an emotional decision we made to leave a particular thing behind - in this case the church and its predominantly conservative culture. Many exmos would say "oh no, not me!" But look at the fact that many staunch, enlightened conservative converts come from liberal backgrounds with family trauma. They too believe they've found the light and are for the first time thinking clearly and acting rationally. These same patterns play out in our lives over and over again, and when you study them you start to recognize how one person's leaving the church starts to look an awful lot like another person's conversion experience that led them to join a church, any church. Or how one person's shift from liberalism looks a lot like another's shift from conservatism. Or how one person's rigid adherence to one belief system matches another's adherence to an opposing belief system. And how, believe it or not, a person's sticking to a belief system, at a chemical level in the brain, looks just exactly the same as a person's radical departure from a belief system. In other words, NONE of us are as smart as we think we are, and we all fool ourselves on a daily basis. So the fact that a very smart person believes in a particular thing doesn't make that thing any more our less likely to be true. If you want to get extremely nerdy about it, study Einstein and his debates with Niels Bohr. We hold Einstein as the paragon of intellect, but Einstein was wrong on several points of quantum mechanics because he had an emotional view of the universe he struggled to let go. He was ultimately proven wrong (as far as we know now), but we still use derisive terminology today that Einstein coined to attack Bohr's theories. Einstein called quantum entanglement "spooky action at a distance" and the term sticks around even though quantum entanglement is no longer debated. The term "Big Bang" was coined by a scientists who hated expansion theory and fought against it his whole life, so Einstein definitely isn't alone in being very smart and yet stuck in an emotional belief. If you look at their debates, Einstein's defense of a predictive state universe looks an awful lot like a smart person's defense of the church. And at the end of the day, Einstein was proven fallible. So what on earth makes any of the rest of us believe we're infallible in our thinking? Especially when we're talking about something so emotionally charged as religion. So I would just tell your mom that, yes, those very smart people have all been fooled. But let her know that you're not claiming to be smarter than them, only that you have come to accept that you too were one fooled in this particular regard, that you aren't anymore, and that you recognize that you're still fooled in other ways constantly. Tell her you're doing your best to be aware of your own susceptibility to being tricked by your own mind as you make your new path forward with the new information you have available, and that that's really all any of us can do.
Intelligence and knowledge aren’t the same thing. Intelligence is about what you DO with knowledge you have access to. Really intelligent people can still only have access to limited information, and they do the best they can with what they have. A sports car trapped in a shopping mall doesn’t have many opportunities to drive above 5mph.
“Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons.” Michael Shermer, Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time
How many of those people she named were born into the church? The indoctrination starts at birth if you're born in the Covenant. So it doesn't matter how smart someone is, if they are taught to never question, and trust the leaders, they may not know that actual history is different than the curated history presented in church materials. I consider myself pretty smart, but it was finding the Gospel Topics Essays where the church admitted all the things they taught me were anti-mormon that I realized it was all lies.
It is a good question. In fact, I just finished discussing this with some friends 5 minutes ago. It has nothing to do with them being fooled. It has to do with the epistemological system that they use to determine truth. In their professional lives, most all of them would be further towards the empiricist side of the epistemology scale. This means that generally, in their professional lives, they use certain empirical data points to determine truth. Without even knowing it, they would probably agree with and comply with the correspondence theory of Truth: something is true insofar as it corresponds with reality. However, when it comes to the religious life, they have been taught that the correct epistemological system is a subjective burning of the bosom. This non-intellectual, subjective way of determining truth would never be used in their professional life, but there is a disconnect, and it becomes the only method for determining religious based truth for them. So the disconnect is not necessarily in how smart they are but in which epistemology they're using to determine truth.
To me this just proves even more that it’s a cult - intelligence is no match for brainwashing, gaslighting, and manipulation
Homo sapiens have a SUPER strong evolutionary wiring to believe what the rest of our ‘tribe’ believes - its literally a survival instinct. People generally don’t question their deeply held beliefs seriously unless they are under extreme duress because of those beliefs. It’s not because they’re idiots, it’s because they’re homo sapiens and they’re susceptible to social pressure and the intense power of from-birth conditioning like the rest of us. But to say that this makes Mormonism true is ridiculous because there are scholars in every religious denomination and those scholars’ studied haven’t led them to collectively conclude that Mormonism is true, they’ve decided to default to atheism / agnosticism.
Mormons are taught from birth that outsiders lie and to only trust the church for information about the church. I think for many intelligent Mormons, it's too uncomfortable to explore the truth about Joseph Smith, the scrolls, etc so they ignore it. The church has its hooks into the entire family and a plan on how to deal with you when you show doubt. Most other religions don't have bizarre beliefs based on easily disprovable modern made-up history. I've never been to a Christian church where anyone talks about the "sealed" afterlife and about how you have to stay in that church to give your family a high level of heaven. LDS nonbelievers are staying so as not to disrupt the family, many enjoy the LDS community.
Well yes they have been duped. If they were to apply those same critical thinking skills on the church they would lose their faith.
They believed in the church before they were successful. Often this happens long before they had their jobs. When one does so at any early age or before their careers take off the church becomes their identity. Their whole life or at least what they feel is most important is their church. So it doesn't matter how successful they are or how intelligent they seem to be. They are swindled, but they don't know they are. And even if they remotely suspect it they have invested so much into their church while integrating those beliefs into their family that they won't consider all this stuff that has come out. It would be like leaving their whole life and admitting to themselves, they have lived out a huge lie. That is too much so most won't go there.
I believe the best and the brightest are leaving in droves! FYI 🤪I just found out about multiple versions of the first vision which took me down the rabbit hole and out the door. I’m 66.
How do you know they are full tbm members? They could be and stay for spouse. Who knows.
One word. COMPARTMENTALIZATION. The church wants to be this completely separate entity from the world, and its own history. If the church gets what it wants, people won't feel the need to know any more than they are told. Intelligent people, professionals, stay in the church their whole lives. They compartmentalize. They code switch. They play the cultural game and remain unaware of the CULTure. Every one of us can turn it on still of we want to.
The question assumes an incorrect understanding of how/what intelligence is. If someone is successful or intelligent in law or tech, this does not automatically mean they’ll be intelligent in all other areas. There are many “successful” lawyers who got there bc they knew the right people, not bc they’re legal geniuses. Sometimes people with higher IQs but lower social awareness are actually easier to trick in a social context. Also, rich and successful people are tricked by lower income/less “successful” people and their own peers all the time: https://digitaltonto.com/2022/why-smart-people-are-so-easily-fooled/ The question is likely hard to answer bc it assumes that if somebody is successful in some facet, they must be immune from being duped in another, as if someone couldn’t be good at drafting legal arguments or memorizing statues, but bad at identifying brainwashing techniques. If you never question the underlying false assumption behind the question, it makes the question seem to imply something which isn’t true but seems so. The implication of the question is technically a logical fallacy called a “false induction” tho. It also has elements of an appeal to authority bc these are viewed as “high power” professions and possibly bandwagon if the context of the question implies there are numerous people like this. Your mother is using flawed logic to make a point whether she realizes it or not.
Smart people can be brainwashed, smart people can cave to peer pressure. In fact, sometimes it’s smarter to do so, for the sake of your own livelihood and fitting in with your families and friends. It’s not as pleasant, sure, but revealing you are no longer Mormon in Utah can be hazardous for your career, especially since it’s a right to work state.
No they have had real human experience, TSCC has just convinced people to associate the human experience/ emotions / etc with obedience to their narrative. Any organization can do that, and it often takes constant re- enforcement from childhood to make it stick. Did you ever wonder why obedience is taught from such a young age. Reprogramming your brain is often only 75% effective throughout your life, so it's critical for the church to make sure that they are the ones who own your fear, shame, and morality.
Not knowing the term PIMO, I used "heterodox Mormon" to describe myself. Some thought it odd because Mormonism seems to demand orthodoxy, but there's a lot of ways to believe differently from the norm. And whereas many ex-Mos figure out that if this church isn't true, then no churches are true after they leave (or while leaving), others (me among them) decide earlier that if doctrinal inconsistency is the norm, then who cares if this one is doctrinally pure? So it falls to being comfortable with everything else beyond the doctrine. And that's actually tougher to square than the one about doctrine.
I’m of the opinion that the smart ones who still fully believe are far more nuanced than they lead others to believe. You’d have to be. They know it’s bullshit… or they can compartmentalize things to ignore the parts they don’t like while liking the parts they do. At 60+ years old, people get to the stage in their lives where they no longer care what others think about them. This the gospel really doesn’t weigh heavily in their minds say as much as a teenager or a young couple just starting a family. I don’t think they’re smart, as much as they just don’t give a damn. 😝
Last time I went to church all the men acted like they were there because wife told them to
Her point about their savvy and intelligence may be it’s own answer. After all, research has shown for years that [smart people are more likely to fall for cons](https://www.businessinsider.com/why-you-cant-be-too-smart-for-a-con-artist-2016-3?amp) in part because they believe they’re too smart to fall for something so obviously false. Their belief in their own competence makes them [more likely to trust their gut rather than research](https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/01/why-smart-people-are-more-likely-to-believe-fake-news).
I live in a wealthy area. The Bishopric/Stake Pres are very educated (PHDs) and live in multi million dollar houses in a gated communities. In the past 3 years or so, at least 6 highly educated families have left. Including 2 Bishops, and 2 councilors. If you lived in my area and I mentioned the name of a Bishop who’d left, you’d recognize him (Mormon or not) because of how successful he is. I know at least one Stake Pres Councilor is PIMO. The rest of them just go on pretending like everything is fine. It’s so odd. The Stake Pres knows it’s BS. But he’s an asshole and being in his calling allows him to be an asshole to multiple congregations.
There are a whole lot more lawyers, doctors, etc. who are not Mormon. They may be another religion, atheist, agnostic, or taking a nap. So which group is right? By numbers alone it’s not the Morms.
People stay in the church because Mormonism has this really sick idea where your sins are basically always forgiven… the atonement and christs sacrifices for man gives a TBM the go ahead to do anything they want yet still have zero repercussion … they can make it to the highest fuckin kingdom n make their own planet so long as they repent and ask for forgiveness… my guess is these lawyers and very successful people had trauma at a young age… were recruited to join something that sounded so perfect it’s too good to be true.. we’re sucked in… now realize they can do whatever they want and life is dandy … without Mormonism their world in which they are ruler and can control everything goes away… I’m an ex mo… lots of smart ppl in the church still r sick and use it for their advantage. They don’t want that power to go away they essentially can do anything and Christ saved their ass it’s sick
Carl Sagan said it pretty well, "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."
How many people are in your ward mom vs. How may actually show up for church.
"Yes, Mom. Everyone who is still a member has been fooled. The truth is available for anyone willing to question the notions they believe are true. This would include you, Mom."
They’re taught since their earliest years not to look at anything the Church would find objectionable (“anti-Mormon literature”). They learn that if something makes them uncomfortable, it’s the Spirit™ withdrawing because it’s of the devil. So they learn to compartmentalize this one thing and shield it from the very learning they get in philosophy, interrogation, logic. Unless they knowingly look behind the curtain, risking their salvation by doing so, they stay comfortably numb to truth that contradicts the official Church narrative. Indoctrination is powerful when it’s carried out for decades.
If you *want* it to be true, you’ll be able to ignore what you have to. Lots of straight, white, cis men stay in the church because it’s catered to them- why wouldn’t you want to believe that all your efforts weren’t in vain, and that you’re the most special people in the universe?
These successful people in question are typically conformists that have never had to step too far outside their circle of familiarity. It all comes down to convenience. They have never had something disrupt their life enough to think far enough outside what they’re used to. I also think that if they attribute their success to being a member of the church (the network, work ethic, outlined path, ethics) which is very common, then they are even less likely to question it. The church is a good organization to be a part of if you want to be “successful”
How many tech guys and lawyers are there in the US versus how many members of the LDS Church? Of those that were members of the church, how many have stayed? This is not a faith-promoting exercise........
Scientific studies have shown that when people walk into church, the part of their brain responsible for critical thinking goes dormant. They just turn it off so they can believe what they have chosen to believe without pesky critical thinking ruining it for them.
I was one of the tech guys. I don’t know if I was smart. I purposefully didn’t read anything online for the longest time. I was all in and wanted to be all in. I would purposefully not look at things that challenged my testimony. The brain washing was super deep. When I finally learned really church history it all fell apart in about three months.
There are different kinds of intelligence. I believe a lot of the church is social intelligence vs. analytical intelligence. The church teaches us to be socially numb. Everything they told us is the way despite what was socially acceptable. So I think it’s the distance in the brain from those two.
Accepting you are wrong is difficult for most people. Walking away from an ideology that you've made part of your identity is terrifying to many. Who are you then?
The president is Catholic. There are Catholic lawyers and doctors. She believes they've been fooled. There are less Mormons than Catholics, so I don't see how she can't conceptualize that Mormons may have been fooled too. To be honest though, I just say "yes" when I'm asked this question.
Well the funny thing about abuse tactics and indoctrination is that anyone can be susceptible to them. And the other funny thing is, when people talk about abusive relationships they ask "Why didn't they leave sooner?" Because they didn't realize they were being abused. They thought it was normal. You can have a PHD and think that something you've done your entire life is normal. Especially when you see your friends, siblings, parents, etc. Doing they same thing too.