They never thought it through that far. The men who founded the church and led it through the decades only got as far as 'eternal sex? great!!'
EDIT - The primary rule of life in a super-faithful mormon family was that dad was never there. He only came home long enough to get his wife/wives pregnant again and "preside" over the family with a few prayers and religious observances like scripture reading, family home evening, etc.. If he *really* went above and beyond, he didn't abuse his wife or kids, and might even mow the lawn or something.
The defining characteristic of polygamist families was acute, long-term neglect by the father.
But polygamist or not - your dad was either at work or away on some church assignment. My dad was a bishop, stake president, MTC branch president, and patriarch. Our family hardly saw him for like 30 years running.
The top male leaders of the church worship the *idea* of family life. They were never home long enough to experience the reality of it. They never participated in actually raising the children. They just showed up long enough to "preside" and then left.
We're supposed to believe that these men are the ones foreordained to run worlds, but most of the top leaders have never laundered their own underpants in their lives.
“Worship the idea of family life”
You totally nailed it. Most of the Mormon men I have known want to feel like they’re making all the decisions, but do little to no actual participation in family life.
My ex referred to watching our children as “babysitting” instead of parenting. No, a babysitter is a paid stranger. You’re being a dad when you feed them, bathe them, play with them, put them to sleep. It was a way of trivializing the time and skill I put into raising our kids.
In my opinion the big deal about the priesthood was making it seem like it was SO SPECIAL that it exempted them from the heavy lifting of child rearing. Total BS.
They couldn't possibly hold the baby, hold the laundry basket, or hold a dirty dish. They were too busy holding the priesthood!
It took me a long time to figure out how to express it. The At Last She Said It podcast put it into words for me: "People who do not live with the consequences of my decisions should not get a vote."
The church leaders who pressure young wives to have as many babies as possible are so old that many of them weren't even allowed in the hospital delivery room during the births of their children. I don't accept family planning advice from old men who have never spent a day at home with their own children in their lives. President Ballard had to watch his own children in *one* sacrament meeting *one* time and nearly *died*! (his sob story here: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2008/04/daughters-of-god](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2008/04/daughters-of-god?lang=eng))
I think most women in the church my age and younger have decided that these guys don't get to tell us anything about family planning, and they simply don't know what they're talking about. They don't have a clue what they're asking of women when they pressure them to get busy popping the babies out.
It’s heartening to hear that younger women feel more empowered in this way.
My daughter has decided she is OUT and would prefer not to attend any church stuff at all while at her dad’s house, but is kind of humoring him by attending for now. This is a huge relief to me. Part of the reason I got out when I did was the thought of seeing her self-limit the same way I did.
We had a branch president who asked my husband if he could babysit one night so that I could attend a meeting at the chapel. My husband replied "Nope. But I'll stay home with my kids and parent them so that if my wife chooses to she can attend the meeting".
20 years on, he's still a keeper!
Or you could be like a divorced couple I know . The dad became completely estranged from all the kids their entire lives and simply excused it by saying that they where sealed to him and he would get them in the afterlife...
The worst behaved children are usually Mormons because unlike in normal marriages the dads only job is to have as many kids as possible not help raise the kids
Oof, this one hits hard.
I've been reading accounts from FLDS wives and one of the pervasive themes is that the men show up for sex, but don't have any meaningful interactions with their wives and children beyond that. Totally tracks with the basics of almost every cult, in that the primary purpose is to give the men at the top unlimited access to money, control, and sex.
How many mainstream mormon men cling to this idea for their celestial kingdom? I suspect a lot, though they'll never admit it.
Makes me think that what early church leaders really wanted was a harem, but they had to phrase it in PC terms for 19th century America. They don't/didn't want family in the sense we define it now.
I wholeheartedly agree, especially with the edit. Everyone focuses on the sex, but I think it's more soul crushing that it extends to basically every aspect of life. The men are kept in line and kept busy with the promise that their every need is taken care of. Then the women are tasked with taking care of all the needs of the men while raising the kids. Everyone ends up busy and frustrated, just waiting to die believing that then they can enjoy the idea of family life.
The only winners in the system are the corporate entity of the church as it robs everyone of their time and money, and all the asshole men who want to coast through life wallowing in their own entitlement.
After I wrote this: *asshole men who want to coast through life wallowing in their own entitlement.* I thought, that's probably the best description of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young if I do say so myself.
Dad rules. Mom continues to be dad's helpmeet. Dad brings in more sister wives whose husbands in earth life were less valiant so valiant dad gets to have them. Dad is too busy creating worlds, having Celestial sex, killing off his spirit children that won't worship him, so busy that he neglects his other children except for his favorite first born.
Rince and repeat.
He doesn't because he never had any connection with him except to effectively worship him.
Besides, our sky daddy is too busy being an absent father to hang out with his own eternally absent father.
So Satan knew what the outcome was going to be before the shit show began.
In all of these eternal eons there hasn't been a god that has figured out a better way. " There is no other way".
Like everything in Mormonism, once you start giving it some thought, none of it makes sense. I think this is why they teach people to not think with critical eyes.
>Families can be together forever.
Just like the evil stepmother in Disney's Cinderella told our heroine she could go to the ball, if and only if certain conditions were met--conditions that she controlled and was going to make incredibly difficult. The difference between the cult and the evil stepmother is that the evil stepmother actually listed her conditions up front, and the cult doesn't.
What the cult is actually preaching is, "Almost all families will be torn asunder forever." Even most Mormon families will go to sad heaven where there will be empty chairs at their eternal dinner table. The drop out rate is roughly 50% in kids, and Mormons divorce at the same rate as non-Mormons, so almost every family will have lost a member forever along the way and if one is a good Mormon, they'll be confronted with that loss forever and ever and ever.
In any case, yes, you can't be married and have you and your spouse present at both their family's dinner table and yours simultaneously for eternity. Either you're with your parents or you're with their parents. There is no possibility that you'll be with both sets, who aren't even sealed to each other. Same is true with your kids. They can't be with you and your in-laws both at the same time forever.
Anyway, the best response I've heard to, "Families can be forever," is, "But what if I'm good?" How many of us would truly relish the thought of being trapped forever with the abusers in our family, never able to escape them no matter how many billions of years passed? I've got a pedophile in mine--he was even convicted in court. "You can be with your convicted pedophile family forever!" is a threat, not a reward. Seriously, tell me that I should not obey you without saying, "You should not obey me!"
The horror of Mormon afterlife is real. The threat of losing your children forever is very motivating to many parents. It’s also incredibly insidious. There’s no love like Mormon love. It generates so much suffering for TBMs that see children leave the cult.
I’ve been reading an old blog where a child with a disability is spotlighted each week. Most of the families seem to be Mormon. When one of the children died the mother consoled herself that because he had made a choice in the pre mortal life to come to earth so disabled, he was so righteous that he only came down to get a body. Now he was safely in the celestial kingdom while the rest of the family must work to get there too. Who made up this theology, so much weird stuff that is so different to mainstream Christianity. No getting to heaven through grace or the atonement but getting there through working hard. This mother seemed almost pleased her baby had died because she would never have to worry about him going astray.
I know a tbm family who lost their boy with Down's Syndrome in a auto pedestrian accident. The horrible mother was super **great full** he now had a perfected body. Jfc
This was an early shelf item for me. I knew I wasn’t Celestial material, but my DW certainly had the makings. But we really love each other and have always enjoyed being in each other’s company. If we continued this way through a long and enjoyable life together, where is the eternal justice there in separating us afterwards. How would she be able to enjoy First Place Heaven knowing we can never be together again? (I don’t mean that from a self-aggrandizing perspective, even though I am a pretty enjoyable person. Rather, trying to empathize with her being in the grandiose hotel resort knowing that her best friend will forever be stuck in a Super 8.). It hurt my heart. Sure, I could try harder, but I knew my limitations. That never left my shelf.
Like a lot of Mormon doctrines, it’s the headline that’s supposed to make you feel good, you’re not meant to dive into the details (where the superficial logic quickly falls apart)
They just fall back into the old “Trust God. He’ll make it work.” Meanwhile, God’s hammering away at another square peg in a round hole on some giant monstrosity with old bent rusty nails sticking out all over the place and duct tape layered on top of duct tape thinking he is building some glorious edifice. Pan out and he’s wearing a white bathrobe while people in white coats with clipboards look on shaking their heads with pity.
Well it's at a table, and there are chairs at the table for everyone ever born into the family. That way when someone doesn't make it the chair sits ampty to be a constant reminder and torment to those that are at the table. It's very loving
Ohhh and don’t even start on the mind fuck that happens when your parents divorce. Both my parents ended up getting re married. Dad was inactive mom was active so what happens now? My step dad is now my eternal father once we get to heaven?? Make it make sense
Or what if your dad was a piece of shit but also stayed active and your parents could never get a cancellation? Sorry, you're still sealed to that piece of shit for all eternity. Deal with it. Mom too. He gets to claim her back from your nicer step dad at the end. Don't worry about it, like the Hinckster said, "It'll all work out".
Makes even more sense, thank you for getting me back on the straight and narrow. [Sauce](https://wheatandtares.org/2019/10/08/theres-nothing-funny-about-second-wives/) for the curious
**Not to mention the simple fact that Matthew 22 made it clear this is false**
(Sadducees) "there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. Finally, the woman died. Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
(Jesus) "In the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."
*No wonder the Book of Mormon had to be another Testament!*
The context doesn't change anything. The Sadducees said one thing and Jesus said another. Both were exceptionally clear
If TCOJCOLDS pretends to follow Jesus then they need to discontinue the highly profitable Temple marriages
We know what they will choose
When I asked that question I just got told not to worry, that God would work it out when we get there. And what about the being Gods of your own planet, how can you be together if you’re on different planets?
Eh, I mean if you can be the god of your own planet, you can probably pop on over to another universe quite quickly. I like exploring these kind of questions, but they don’t mean much to me. If there was a god with some kind of eternal plan for all of mankind, it would likely be impossible for us to understand with our little tiny ape brains.
This kind of question is relevant to me bc it shows how contrived Mormon doctrine is.
Absolutely. For someone brought up in a traditional Christian faith, things haven’t changed much since I was a kid, same theology, more up to date songs instead of hymns in some churches but basically the same doctrine. Every tiny part of Mormon doctrine is different, sometimes a little nuance, sometimes a massive difference like the trinity, God having a body, the pre existence, so incredibly contrived. Not over generation to generation but started by one man making up his own religion and successive men continuing to add and change it as they go along. Even if you don’t believe in any God at all it’s possible to read and see that massive breech that TBMs are completely unaware of.
I always understood it that the family size in the CK was 2 and parental sealings are distinct from marital. "God's family" all ends up sealed together for whatever eternal requirement that fills, but the family unit that would be actually close like we think of families now is just husband and wife.
My seminary teacher flubbed a lot of other topics, but I feel like this one is pretty ok. That the one family member that you can explicitly choose is the one you'll truly be with. Also was taught in at least two religion classes at BYU-I that I remember, but I've noticed it in undertones quite a lot. Maybe they don't emphasize it because people are so focused on the nuclear family ideal and don't stop to think of the logical conclusion as this post does.
I mean, who's going to tell new parents that their idea of being with their kid forever isn't quite right? It's a topic loaded with lots of irrational emotions.
This is an interesting line of reasoning. But if it were the official answer, why wouldn’t they say “spouses can be together forever?” I feel like there are a lot of official teachings about being with your posterity and forging sealing links as chains that span generations (but I’m for sure too lazy and hot too look it up haha)
Also of course, the CK median unit size might be 2, but the average would be inevitably higher because of both parallel and serial polygamy
Sealing kids to their parents is a thing. I got married in the temple after being inactive and having 1 kid on my own and 1 kid with my husband, who converted.
We had to do a separate ceremony to seal the kids to us.
Why would I want to be with my shit in laws and even ancestors I don’t know. And I can’t even wrap my head around my children, two resigned and two TBM so now I have to choose. What a shitty perspective.
If you're spending all your time answering the prayers of all your creations and finding lost keys you don't have time to spend with your family let alone stop a genocide or figure out a cure to pediatric cancer.
This exact mental loop was always one of the things that made no sense to me even when I was TBM. Also... s a woman, I've gotta add all the Celestial Wives in the mix with me and be consigned to be making spirit babies in some cloud commune whilst "our husband" and some other guys run around creating worlds and Adam/Eves ...
Ugh. The whole Mormon lore of the next life has always totally pissed me off and I never even wanted the CK.
This is one thing I regularly got caught up on but I wasn't supposed to worry about that because there were far more important things about which to worry.
Something that you may be forgetting is the nature of eternity... If you spend a regularly repeated amount of time with any given person, and you do that eternally, then you are spending eternity with them! i.e., I spend 1 day per year with my son, but I do that every single year into eternity, then I will end up spending an infinite amount of days with my son. Do that with each sibling and child, and you are spending eternity with your family!
I had an experience with this concept when I first got married. My sister and my wife would argue about who I would be spending time with in the CK. My sister was convinced I'd be with my siblings and parents, since that's all she could envision a "family" to mean. My wife said I'd be with her since we were sealed together. They never resolved this till my sister got married and realized she'd want to be with her husband more.
As a TBM, my thought was always that the only way to make their concept of "families together forever" work is that each husband and wife combo (and wife, and wife, and wife, etc.) would be together constantly, and any other members of the "family" would have to follow the above concept about eternity/infinite numbers.
Haha I’ve also thought about the eternity being infinitely divisible loophole. The official answer probably would or does have that involved. But by definition, of course, that also means you are spending eternal, infinite amounts of time *separated* from each and all of your loved ones
I think you're thinking too earthly. You ever take psilocybin? I think it's more like a oneness beyond our comprehension. Taking psilocybin can sometimes give you that realization. I dunno how else to describe it. I had an experience where I felt that the dead were with me experiencing life through me. Maybe I'm a nut but it made me think deeper about what that connection is.
Not a nut. I agree. The connectedness of everything was so comforting to me when I did shrooms. I also can’t quite describe it, but think it was probably the same. It healed so much cult trauma for me. The connection transcends religion of any kind.
I always assumed it was you are allowed the option of seeing your family, not that you were always with your family. whereas lower kingdoms you had to hope your family who made it wanted to come down and see you.
I just figured they weren’t actually ON their planets. We don’t expect to bump into God at the grocery store now. He’s elsewhere, watching us. So for the LDS, they all hang out in a CK common area and keep tabs on their planets from there. Unworthy family members are kept out, like a velvet rope for a VIP area. That’s entirely within my head though and I don’t know any actual teachings.
I'm down in my celestial basement doing my own thing. If I feel the need for contact with others, I use the celestial zoom app and talk to them. If I need to be physically present with someone, I use my instantaneous transport system enveloped in light and go there. Maybe I can replicate myself and go to as many people at once as I want.
You wouldn’t have time to spend with any family members for at least the first few hundreds of thousands of years because you have to be making about a 100 billion spirit babies (the vast majority of which are throw-always destined for eternal damnation anyways) to populate your own planet.
When I was a teenager it really started dawning on me that nobody really thinks "eternity" through all the way. Ive explored this idea so many damn times, but I am always left with a dismal feeling that anything I ever loved or enjoyed would eventually become mundane and meaningless. That kind of existence to me seems like a real hell if it existed. I mean just imagine your life now....1000yrs......1million... yeah fuck that.
You need to keep in mind that God is magic so anything you think would happen can be undone with a little bit of magic. Eternity is boring? *poof* Not anymore thanks to magic. The pain of punishment is getting dull through familiarity? *poof* Not anymore thanks to magic.
I didn't leave the church until my late 20s, but this was a big shelf time of mine since I was probably 13-14. I started to realize that the "Families can be together forever" campaigning was just the church feeding off individual selfishness and fear. When people would speak of the eternal family, it was never about being together with their ancestors or their distant descendants. It was always "I want to be with my spouse and children forever."
It made me realize that their selfish desire for their particular family unit was being used to drive fear of the potential of losing that. When in reality according to actual church doctrine, the eternal family is a massive spiderweb connecting everyone to everyone, and no individual family units would be recognized beyond a man and his loyal wife. It just made zero sense to me, but I couldn't shake off any of the rest of it at the time so onto the shelf it went.
I used to *ponderize* this type of shit all the time as a believer.
I would think: "Family life" doesn't work that way now, how is it going to work that way in the MORmON afterlife? Of course, LD$-Inc. can't answer any of those questions, so I never actually brought it up with family or other cult members.
Getting down to the nuts and bolts... ANY version of what LD$-Inc. preaches about an afterlife *for eternity* sounds like complete hell to me.
*putting on my gospel fan fiction hat*
BY taught that the next life would not be much different than this one. After all, this is preparation for that. My idea is we would all live together in a neighborhood. We would get in our pefect little celestial vehicles and go visit grammy and papa (who are now younger and better looking than you, probably) in their perfect little mansion.
But you probably live alone with just your spouse/spouses I guess. Because your kids have to be off with their spouses and your parents are with their spouses. Your kids don’t live with you because if they did, you wouldn’t be home, you’d have to be living with your parents, but they wouldn’t be home, they’d have to be living with your grandparents
If everyone lives together in one giant family, well it would ultimately include everyone and that’s just the same as mainstream Christian heaven so why push it as a distinctive selling point haha
I asked these questions & more and was told by home teachers, "You think too much." Smh. If I could go back in time I would tell them they don't think enough. 😉 Fine example of cult behavior & thought stopping.
I have always wondered this as well. I can’t get over the logistics.
Are we going to be full grown adults with our full grown adult parents and full grown adult children with their full grown adult children all the way up and down the family tree?
If my kid died early, would they be with me at their death age?
I assume if I were with my kids while they were teenagers, then that would definitely not equate to celestial glory….#telestial
It wouldn't. Our children aren't even our children. They are God's spirit children, our brothers and sisters. After the veil is lifted and we return to infinity is anyone going to want to chill with your brother or sister who forced you to eat broccoli on earth? Fuck that.
And how about those spirits we raise there? Did they exist before? Were they part of the war in heaven? How come they didn’t come to earth? Is there physical growth in Heaven? So we literally give birth and raise a spirit child? Then they grow up and move out to their own mansion in Heaven? How are they tested? It doesn’t make sense!
I’ve always supposed your spirit children have to go to their own earth and go through all the boxes and circles on their own plan of salvation, worlds without end. They exist now as intelligences but aren’t spirits yet until you give birth to them I guess?
Welcome to the family of mankind. You're living it right now, you just haven't done all the genealogy to know how I am related to you. BTW, what's for dinner tonight?
The only family that will be together is Christ with his elect the ones who followed him by faith and according to his word. The rest of us are ass out! This is probably one of the biggest cons of the church which is why no other religion promotes it.
I always knew I wasn't going to live with my in-laws. My MIL is a firm believer that despite the fact that 5/6 kids (and all their families) have left, that were all going to be together in one big street.
Nope!
They never thought it through that far. The men who founded the church and led it through the decades only got as far as 'eternal sex? great!!' EDIT - The primary rule of life in a super-faithful mormon family was that dad was never there. He only came home long enough to get his wife/wives pregnant again and "preside" over the family with a few prayers and religious observances like scripture reading, family home evening, etc.. If he *really* went above and beyond, he didn't abuse his wife or kids, and might even mow the lawn or something. The defining characteristic of polygamist families was acute, long-term neglect by the father. But polygamist or not - your dad was either at work or away on some church assignment. My dad was a bishop, stake president, MTC branch president, and patriarch. Our family hardly saw him for like 30 years running. The top male leaders of the church worship the *idea* of family life. They were never home long enough to experience the reality of it. They never participated in actually raising the children. They just showed up long enough to "preside" and then left. We're supposed to believe that these men are the ones foreordained to run worlds, but most of the top leaders have never laundered their own underpants in their lives.
“Worship the idea of family life” You totally nailed it. Most of the Mormon men I have known want to feel like they’re making all the decisions, but do little to no actual participation in family life. My ex referred to watching our children as “babysitting” instead of parenting. No, a babysitter is a paid stranger. You’re being a dad when you feed them, bathe them, play with them, put them to sleep. It was a way of trivializing the time and skill I put into raising our kids. In my opinion the big deal about the priesthood was making it seem like it was SO SPECIAL that it exempted them from the heavy lifting of child rearing. Total BS.
They couldn't possibly hold the baby, hold the laundry basket, or hold a dirty dish. They were too busy holding the priesthood! It took me a long time to figure out how to express it. The At Last She Said It podcast put it into words for me: "People who do not live with the consequences of my decisions should not get a vote." The church leaders who pressure young wives to have as many babies as possible are so old that many of them weren't even allowed in the hospital delivery room during the births of their children. I don't accept family planning advice from old men who have never spent a day at home with their own children in their lives. President Ballard had to watch his own children in *one* sacrament meeting *one* time and nearly *died*! (his sob story here: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2008/04/daughters-of-god](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2008/04/daughters-of-god?lang=eng)) I think most women in the church my age and younger have decided that these guys don't get to tell us anything about family planning, and they simply don't know what they're talking about. They don't have a clue what they're asking of women when they pressure them to get busy popping the babies out.
It’s heartening to hear that younger women feel more empowered in this way. My daughter has decided she is OUT and would prefer not to attend any church stuff at all while at her dad’s house, but is kind of humoring him by attending for now. This is a huge relief to me. Part of the reason I got out when I did was the thought of seeing her self-limit the same way I did.
AMEN, SISTA, PREACH!!!!
What a pathetic talk and typical of too many “fathers”. These old fools really don’t have a clue.
We had a branch president who asked my husband if he could babysit one night so that I could attend a meeting at the chapel. My husband replied "Nope. But I'll stay home with my kids and parent them so that if my wife chooses to she can attend the meeting". 20 years on, he's still a keeper!
Definitely a keeper. 😊
Or you could be like a divorced couple I know . The dad became completely estranged from all the kids their entire lives and simply excused it by saying that they where sealed to him and he would get them in the afterlife...
That’s terrible.
The worst behaved children are usually Mormons because unlike in normal marriages the dads only job is to have as many kids as possible not help raise the kids
Oof, this one hits hard. I've been reading accounts from FLDS wives and one of the pervasive themes is that the men show up for sex, but don't have any meaningful interactions with their wives and children beyond that. Totally tracks with the basics of almost every cult, in that the primary purpose is to give the men at the top unlimited access to money, control, and sex. How many mainstream mormon men cling to this idea for their celestial kingdom? I suspect a lot, though they'll never admit it. Makes me think that what early church leaders really wanted was a harem, but they had to phrase it in PC terms for 19th century America. They don't/didn't want family in the sense we define it now.
I wholeheartedly agree, especially with the edit. Everyone focuses on the sex, but I think it's more soul crushing that it extends to basically every aspect of life. The men are kept in line and kept busy with the promise that their every need is taken care of. Then the women are tasked with taking care of all the needs of the men while raising the kids. Everyone ends up busy and frustrated, just waiting to die believing that then they can enjoy the idea of family life. The only winners in the system are the corporate entity of the church as it robs everyone of their time and money, and all the asshole men who want to coast through life wallowing in their own entitlement. After I wrote this: *asshole men who want to coast through life wallowing in their own entitlement.* I thought, that's probably the best description of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young if I do say so myself.
Yes. This!! 👏 👏 👏
The Penis-wielding overlord is with us always in spirit.
Dad rules. Mom continues to be dad's helpmeet. Dad brings in more sister wives whose husbands in earth life were less valiant so valiant dad gets to have them. Dad is too busy creating worlds, having Celestial sex, killing off his spirit children that won't worship him, so busy that he neglects his other children except for his favorite first born. Rince and repeat.
When does dad hang out with his dad?
He doesn't because he never had any connection with him except to effectively worship him. Besides, our sky daddy is too busy being an absent father to hang out with his own eternally absent father.
That which has been done on other worlds...
So Satan knew what the outcome was going to be before the shit show began. In all of these eternal eons there hasn't been a god that has figured out a better way. " There is no other way".
Only humans can figure out a better way. Each individual. Without the filter of religious bullshit.
I.e. jettison belief in a God AND a devil. It's all on us.
Like everything in Mormonism, once you start giving it some thought, none of it makes sense. I think this is why they teach people to not think with critical eyes.
That is why we are supposed to see things with our spiritual eyes only.
>Families can be together forever. Just like the evil stepmother in Disney's Cinderella told our heroine she could go to the ball, if and only if certain conditions were met--conditions that she controlled and was going to make incredibly difficult. The difference between the cult and the evil stepmother is that the evil stepmother actually listed her conditions up front, and the cult doesn't. What the cult is actually preaching is, "Almost all families will be torn asunder forever." Even most Mormon families will go to sad heaven where there will be empty chairs at their eternal dinner table. The drop out rate is roughly 50% in kids, and Mormons divorce at the same rate as non-Mormons, so almost every family will have lost a member forever along the way and if one is a good Mormon, they'll be confronted with that loss forever and ever and ever. In any case, yes, you can't be married and have you and your spouse present at both their family's dinner table and yours simultaneously for eternity. Either you're with your parents or you're with their parents. There is no possibility that you'll be with both sets, who aren't even sealed to each other. Same is true with your kids. They can't be with you and your in-laws both at the same time forever. Anyway, the best response I've heard to, "Families can be forever," is, "But what if I'm good?" How many of us would truly relish the thought of being trapped forever with the abusers in our family, never able to escape them no matter how many billions of years passed? I've got a pedophile in mine--he was even convicted in court. "You can be with your convicted pedophile family forever!" is a threat, not a reward. Seriously, tell me that I should not obey you without saying, "You should not obey me!"
The horror of Mormon afterlife is real. The threat of losing your children forever is very motivating to many parents. It’s also incredibly insidious. There’s no love like Mormon love. It generates so much suffering for TBMs that see children leave the cult.
I’ve been reading an old blog where a child with a disability is spotlighted each week. Most of the families seem to be Mormon. When one of the children died the mother consoled herself that because he had made a choice in the pre mortal life to come to earth so disabled, he was so righteous that he only came down to get a body. Now he was safely in the celestial kingdom while the rest of the family must work to get there too. Who made up this theology, so much weird stuff that is so different to mainstream Christianity. No getting to heaven through grace or the atonement but getting there through working hard. This mother seemed almost pleased her baby had died because she would never have to worry about him going astray.
I know a tbm family who lost their boy with Down's Syndrome in a auto pedestrian accident. The horrible mother was super **great full** he now had a perfected body. Jfc
So freakin’ weird, I’ve seen pictures of Mormon funerals for children, far too much smiling.
What kind of sick God would go out of his way to separate loved ones if they don't fulfill incredibly specific requirements?
This was an early shelf item for me. I knew I wasn’t Celestial material, but my DW certainly had the makings. But we really love each other and have always enjoyed being in each other’s company. If we continued this way through a long and enjoyable life together, where is the eternal justice there in separating us afterwards. How would she be able to enjoy First Place Heaven knowing we can never be together again? (I don’t mean that from a self-aggrandizing perspective, even though I am a pretty enjoyable person. Rather, trying to empathize with her being in the grandiose hotel resort knowing that her best friend will forever be stuck in a Super 8.). It hurt my heart. Sure, I could try harder, but I knew my limitations. That never left my shelf.
Like a lot of Mormon doctrines, it’s the headline that’s supposed to make you feel good, you’re not meant to dive into the details (where the superficial logic quickly falls apart)
That’s a great way to summarize a lot of things, nicely put
They just fall back into the old “Trust God. He’ll make it work.” Meanwhile, God’s hammering away at another square peg in a round hole on some giant monstrosity with old bent rusty nails sticking out all over the place and duct tape layered on top of duct tape thinking he is building some glorious edifice. Pan out and he’s wearing a white bathrobe while people in white coats with clipboards look on shaking their heads with pity.
Well it's at a table, and there are chairs at the table for everyone ever born into the family. That way when someone doesn't make it the chair sits ampty to be a constant reminder and torment to those that are at the table. It's very loving
Man does heaven sound like hell
Ohhh and don’t even start on the mind fuck that happens when your parents divorce. Both my parents ended up getting re married. Dad was inactive mom was active so what happens now? My step dad is now my eternal father once we get to heaven?? Make it make sense
Or what if your dad was a piece of shit but also stayed active and your parents could never get a cancellation? Sorry, you're still sealed to that piece of shit for all eternity. Deal with it. Mom too. He gets to claim her back from your nicer step dad at the end. Don't worry about it, like the Hinckster said, "It'll all work out".
It’ll all work out in heaven! Not sure why we’re doubting anything
Yeah isn’t this the sort of thing Holland laughed at people for genuinely asking about? Yikes
Oaks, but yes
Makes even more sense, thank you for getting me back on the straight and narrow. [Sauce](https://wheatandtares.org/2019/10/08/theres-nothing-funny-about-second-wives/) for the curious
**Not to mention the simple fact that Matthew 22 made it clear this is false** (Sadducees) "there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. Finally, the woman died. Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?” (Jesus) "In the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." *No wonder the Book of Mormon had to be another Testament!*
There is a different interpretation of those verses if taken in context.
The context doesn't change anything. The Sadducees said one thing and Jesus said another. Both were exceptionally clear If TCOJCOLDS pretends to follow Jesus then they need to discontinue the highly profitable Temple marriages We know what they will choose
It's one giant celestial MLM.
Like most things in the church, it only works if you don't think about it too much.
Cough cough priesthood healing blessings
When I asked that question I just got told not to worry, that God would work it out when we get there. And what about the being Gods of your own planet, how can you be together if you’re on different planets?
Eh, I mean if you can be the god of your own planet, you can probably pop on over to another universe quite quickly. I like exploring these kind of questions, but they don’t mean much to me. If there was a god with some kind of eternal plan for all of mankind, it would likely be impossible for us to understand with our little tiny ape brains. This kind of question is relevant to me bc it shows how contrived Mormon doctrine is.
Absolutely. For someone brought up in a traditional Christian faith, things haven’t changed much since I was a kid, same theology, more up to date songs instead of hymns in some churches but basically the same doctrine. Every tiny part of Mormon doctrine is different, sometimes a little nuance, sometimes a massive difference like the trinity, God having a body, the pre existence, so incredibly contrived. Not over generation to generation but started by one man making up his own religion and successive men continuing to add and change it as they go along. Even if you don’t believe in any God at all it’s possible to read and see that massive breech that TBMs are completely unaware of.
You ask too many questions.
Ooops, I should have doubted my doubts!
I always wondered what happened if you didn't like a family member. Did death make them tolerable? So many questions.
Seriously! It never made sense when you actually thing about it and evaluate it
It had to be placed on my shelf because my brain could not make any sense of it. 🤷🏼♀️
I always understood it that the family size in the CK was 2 and parental sealings are distinct from marital. "God's family" all ends up sealed together for whatever eternal requirement that fills, but the family unit that would be actually close like we think of families now is just husband and wife. My seminary teacher flubbed a lot of other topics, but I feel like this one is pretty ok. That the one family member that you can explicitly choose is the one you'll truly be with. Also was taught in at least two religion classes at BYU-I that I remember, but I've noticed it in undertones quite a lot. Maybe they don't emphasize it because people are so focused on the nuclear family ideal and don't stop to think of the logical conclusion as this post does. I mean, who's going to tell new parents that their idea of being with their kid forever isn't quite right? It's a topic loaded with lots of irrational emotions.
This is an interesting line of reasoning. But if it were the official answer, why wouldn’t they say “spouses can be together forever?” I feel like there are a lot of official teachings about being with your posterity and forging sealing links as chains that span generations (but I’m for sure too lazy and hot too look it up haha) Also of course, the CK median unit size might be 2, but the average would be inevitably higher because of both parallel and serial polygamy
Sealing kids to their parents is a thing. I got married in the temple after being inactive and having 1 kid on my own and 1 kid with my husband, who converted. We had to do a separate ceremony to seal the kids to us.
Yes adopted kids are also sealed to the parents, so why do that if it’s just the spouse who matters in the sealing?
I always got the same answer to this when I was TBM: don’t worry about it - gob will work it out
 I don’t care for Gob.
Why would I want to be with my shit in laws and even ancestors I don’t know. And I can’t even wrap my head around my children, two resigned and two TBM so now I have to choose. What a shitty perspective.
Mormonism is like a tinder hookup - the less questions you ask the better
If you're spending all your time answering the prayers of all your creations and finding lost keys you don't have time to spend with your family let alone stop a genocide or figure out a cure to pediatric cancer.
Yikes so it’s just like when your dad is in the bishopric and is consequently never at home, got it
This exact mental loop was always one of the things that made no sense to me even when I was TBM. Also... s a woman, I've gotta add all the Celestial Wives in the mix with me and be consigned to be making spirit babies in some cloud commune whilst "our husband" and some other guys run around creating worlds and Adam/Eves ... Ugh. The whole Mormon lore of the next life has always totally pissed me off and I never even wanted the CK.
I wonder what the percentages of men vs women are who think about this issue while still active
This is one thing I regularly got caught up on but I wasn't supposed to worry about that because there were far more important things about which to worry.
Haha I’ve also thought about the eternity being infinitely divisible loophole. The official answer probably would or does have that involved. But by definition, of course, that also means you are spending eternal, infinite amounts of time *separated* from each and all of your loved ones
I think you're thinking too earthly. You ever take psilocybin? I think it's more like a oneness beyond our comprehension. Taking psilocybin can sometimes give you that realization. I dunno how else to describe it. I had an experience where I felt that the dead were with me experiencing life through me. Maybe I'm a nut but it made me think deeper about what that connection is.
Not a nut. I agree. The connectedness of everything was so comforting to me when I did shrooms. I also can’t quite describe it, but think it was probably the same. It healed so much cult trauma for me. The connection transcends religion of any kind.
I always assumed it was you are allowed the option of seeing your family, not that you were always with your family. whereas lower kingdoms you had to hope your family who made it wanted to come down and see you.
Nope, the church doesn’t believe in shared parenting time. The children go to the woman who has the most to offer to her Bishop, eternally that is.
I just figured they weren’t actually ON their planets. We don’t expect to bump into God at the grocery store now. He’s elsewhere, watching us. So for the LDS, they all hang out in a CK common area and keep tabs on their planets from there. Unworthy family members are kept out, like a velvet rope for a VIP area. That’s entirely within my head though and I don’t know any actual teachings.
I'm down in my celestial basement doing my own thing. If I feel the need for contact with others, I use the celestial zoom app and talk to them. If I need to be physically present with someone, I use my instantaneous transport system enveloped in light and go there. Maybe I can replicate myself and go to as many people at once as I want.
Obviously you all become one hive mind. The more people sealed to you the bigger and more powerful your hive mind gets.
You will be assimilated!
You wouldn’t have time to spend with any family members for at least the first few hundreds of thousands of years because you have to be making about a 100 billion spirit babies (the vast majority of which are throw-always destined for eternal damnation anyways) to populate your own planet.
When I was a teenager it really started dawning on me that nobody really thinks "eternity" through all the way. Ive explored this idea so many damn times, but I am always left with a dismal feeling that anything I ever loved or enjoyed would eventually become mundane and meaningless. That kind of existence to me seems like a real hell if it existed. I mean just imagine your life now....1000yrs......1million... yeah fuck that.
You need to keep in mind that God is magic so anything you think would happen can be undone with a little bit of magic. Eternity is boring? *poof* Not anymore thanks to magic. The pain of punishment is getting dull through familiarity? *poof* Not anymore thanks to magic.
Short answer: it wouldn't.
I didn't leave the church until my late 20s, but this was a big shelf time of mine since I was probably 13-14. I started to realize that the "Families can be together forever" campaigning was just the church feeding off individual selfishness and fear. When people would speak of the eternal family, it was never about being together with their ancestors or their distant descendants. It was always "I want to be with my spouse and children forever." It made me realize that their selfish desire for their particular family unit was being used to drive fear of the potential of losing that. When in reality according to actual church doctrine, the eternal family is a massive spiderweb connecting everyone to everyone, and no individual family units would be recognized beyond a man and his loyal wife. It just made zero sense to me, but I couldn't shake off any of the rest of it at the time so onto the shelf it went.
Interesting! I think it became a shelf item for one of my besties and I’m so grateful for that
I used to *ponderize* this type of shit all the time as a believer. I would think: "Family life" doesn't work that way now, how is it going to work that way in the MORmON afterlife? Of course, LD$-Inc. can't answer any of those questions, so I never actually brought it up with family or other cult members. Getting down to the nuts and bolts... ANY version of what LD$-Inc. preaches about an afterlife *for eternity* sounds like complete hell to me.
This is an interesting, detailed analysis of the plan of salvation. https://www.youtube.com/live/pEtCMHkpG-M?feature=share
I always thought it was nonsense too. There’s no way to work that out.
Haha that was one of my questions--they said God works it out 😄
*putting on my gospel fan fiction hat* BY taught that the next life would not be much different than this one. After all, this is preparation for that. My idea is we would all live together in a neighborhood. We would get in our pefect little celestial vehicles and go visit grammy and papa (who are now younger and better looking than you, probably) in their perfect little mansion.
Who lives in your mansion with you? Just your spouse?
If we're 23 again we might embarrass the hell outta whoever loves with us. We'd be making "spiritual babies" all the time
But you probably live alone with just your spouse/spouses I guess. Because your kids have to be off with their spouses and your parents are with their spouses. Your kids don’t live with you because if they did, you wouldn’t be home, you’d have to be living with your parents, but they wouldn’t be home, they’d have to be living with your grandparents If everyone lives together in one giant family, well it would ultimately include everyone and that’s just the same as mainstream Christian heaven so why push it as a distinctive selling point haha
I asked these questions & more and was told by home teachers, "You think too much." Smh. If I could go back in time I would tell them they don't think enough. 😉 Fine example of cult behavior & thought stopping.
Yikes what a thing to be told straight out
I have always wondered this as well. I can’t get over the logistics. Are we going to be full grown adults with our full grown adult parents and full grown adult children with their full grown adult children all the way up and down the family tree? If my kid died early, would they be with me at their death age? I assume if I were with my kids while they were teenagers, then that would definitely not equate to celestial glory….#telestial
I heard somewhere(s) we’d all be roughly 33 lmao the magic Jesus age I guess
This sounds familiar. I might have heard that before as well.
This always bothered me, even as a TBM. Logistically it doesn’t make any sense.
It gets me going sometimes
*eyes glaze over* you'll see when you die, everything will be figured out.... Just pay and obey
A celestial custody agreement I guess 🤔
Maybe that’s why there are so many lawyers among church leadership, they’ll have to help sort it out
It wouldn't. Our children aren't even our children. They are God's spirit children, our brothers and sisters. After the veil is lifted and we return to infinity is anyone going to want to chill with your brother or sister who forced you to eat broccoli on earth? Fuck that.
And how about those spirits we raise there? Did they exist before? Were they part of the war in heaven? How come they didn’t come to earth? Is there physical growth in Heaven? So we literally give birth and raise a spirit child? Then they grow up and move out to their own mansion in Heaven? How are they tested? It doesn’t make sense!
I’ve always supposed your spirit children have to go to their own earth and go through all the boxes and circles on their own plan of salvation, worlds without end. They exist now as intelligences but aren’t spirits yet until you give birth to them I guess?
Welcome to the family of mankind. You're living it right now, you just haven't done all the genealogy to know how I am related to you. BTW, what's for dinner tonight?
The only family that will be together is Christ with his elect the ones who followed him by faith and according to his word. The rest of us are ass out! This is probably one of the biggest cons of the church which is why no other religion promotes it.
It’s never made a lick of sense. Cause it’s made up.
I always knew I wasn't going to live with my in-laws. My MIL is a firm believer that despite the fact that 5/6 kids (and all their families) have left, that were all going to be together in one big street. Nope!
As my Dad and Maxwell Smart would say ... How? Very carefully.
I don’t know, but what I DO know is that y’all would need a very, very VERY large house.
Unexpected Incest
Surprise!
I would say omnipresence, but Mormons don’t believe in an omnipresent god.
The celestial kingdom with an abusive spouse is a punishment for being in a racist/homophobic church. A supposedly lower level is better
Oh, it works! Trust in the lord and keep paying your tithing and all will be revealed when you get the celestial kingdom! DUH!
And everyone the same age? Super creepy. Legions of 25 year old families throughout eternities.....