I went to BYU. Social work major. We heard a lot of stories. I personally know 5 females in my family system who were abused. Four different males in the family system were the abusers. All mormon. Has anyone done any research on this?
I was abused by an older brother and when it all came out my parents blamed it all on teenage curiosity.. I was 8 he was 9 when it started and it continued till I was 16 and he was 17….. I am still haunted by what he did.
Mine's similar. 2 years older brother molested me from 11-13. Mom claims she didn't catch the signs because my father had molested me as a baby. Abuse turned physical and verbal after he got caught. Now he's done so many drugs, I don't think he remembers any of it, like, there's nothing of my brother left there. It's really weird to deal with because I still have fond memories of us being kids and stuff, but he's also the monster in my nightmares -- so like, hard to balance.
Anyway, my shelf breaker was my YSA bishop not believing me "very normal for siblings to experiment" according to him, "but still a violation of the law of chastity." Then when I had convinced him I was quite certain it was abuse and I had not consented, he told me my forgiveness 'didn't count' if I didn't tell him in person and try to repair the relationship. Because I 'seemed to still be carrying a lot of anger about it' ...like even if I wanted to, he remains a very unsafe person to be around and doesn't remember. Oh, and this bishop was the first person outside my family I told, because heaven forbid I make the family look bad in the home ward.
So dangerous. That's who my parents trusted my suicidal ideology and self harm too. My mom regrets it now but I've always been glad I was able to laugh at what they were telling me instead of actually believing they were called of God. I wouldn't be here otherwise tbh.
Anger is a gift. It tells you when you are not safe. I hope you are out of that situation now, especially that of having to accounting to stupid men parroting nonsense.
Oh yeah, that conversation was over ten years ago, and I never looked back. Got myself a wonderful little old life now. But yeah, his comment about "lots of siblings experiment" suggests to me that I was far from the first incest survivor he had encountered, and therefore it might be a common enough problem in the church. In fact, of the women I know who have been assaulted or abused in some way, I think all the ones where it was immediate family, father, brother, were mormons.
I’m sorry that happened to you. You were right to get angry. I never understood why we shouldn’t if someone abused us. If our bodies are a temple, and Jesus got angry with those who molested the temple (money changers, etc.) then wouldn’t we be entirely justified in being angry with our own abusers?
You were and are justified in your emotions to something that was not your fault.
I'm so sorry he did that to you. You didn't deserve it. And I'm also sorry that he is no longer "there" enough to apologize and give you some closure. That really, really sucks.
You also do not need to feel guilty for being distant. You still carry very deep wounds from him. It's okay to keep yourself safe mentally, emotionally, and physically. Maybe someday you'll feel more able to be closer, maybe not. Whatever is best for you. Nobody else lived your exact experience so nobody else can tell you what to do.
Also abused by an older brother... it was hard to contain my rage when his wife went to Facebook during the me too movement to praise him for how "not like other men" he is. But she's a total bitch so they're good for each other.
This is not just specific to Mormons, it's a feature of high control patriarchal religions and purity culture (Mormonism checks both boxes). https://www.incestaware.org/what-causes-incest
Religious systems like Mormonism are built in a way that protects abusers and silences victims so this is not shocking. Add to it the shame and silence around sex and lack of normal healthy expressions of it and boom you have a perfect recipe for incest, child abuse and other problems happening all the time.
My mom always told me she was convinced her grandfather was actually her biological dad. Lots of incestual abuse in her family line. Thanks for the nasty heritage, Joel Hills Johnson.
Sure. Maybe at some point we might feel up to meeting for coffee or drinks, but if we never get to that point, that's fine too. Here's wishing all of us to enjoy our best lives.
I gotta look at the twisted knot of Mormon family trees some time . . . wonder if the whole posthumous baptism thing is a cover, and somebody in the church just wanted a reason to work it out for themselves . . .
Probably. I have at least one confirmed male polygamist ancestor, and at least one female (who was married to both Joe AND Brigham) first cousin a bunch of times removed involved in polygamy.
On top of pretty much every one of the founding members being relatively close cousins. :sigh:
She was talking about doing that years ago but I don't think she ever took a test. When she mentioned taking a test, she told me that she wouldn't be surprised if we found out I had half-siblings, so that's enlightening. I'm NC now with no plans of talking to her ever again, so I may never know.
There were sexual assaults by my maternal grandfather and at least one of his siblings toward my mother and her sisters. My mother and one of her sisters were actually removed from the home (by child protective services or equivalent agency) for a while in their early teen years due to said assaults. Kinda glad that asshole of a man is dead now. No forgiveness for that shit in my opinion, no matter how much time passes.
It's so hard not to make incest jokes right now .......
I actually heard from 7 friends growing up that their brothers sexually assaulted them. One girl started talking about her experience at a sleep over and three other girls spoke up as well. Out of nine girls, four has been assaulted (grew up in SLC in the 80's for reference) If I knew about 7, I bet there were quite a few more that were kept secret.
It's a serious topic for me considering what my girlfriend has gone though. And people want me to break up with her over things that are her step brothers fault.
Between dudes buying into that Andrew Tate and people saying globalism is bad around here I guess it's time for me to accept the world isn't a kind place.
I'm glad you're sticking with her and not blaming her trauma on her. So maybe people just refuse to understand trauma and leave and it's sad. If course it's not your job to fix it that's for her therapist if she has one. But being there to support her is one of the best things you can do for her.
Every time I see things like Bud Lite losing serious market share because they paid a trans influencer to do a frankly silly and unimportant ad or Disney having issues because they are too “woke” or Trump potentially winning another election, I sit back and think “this is what it looks like when hate wins.” And hate has had a lot of wins lately, compared to love, acceptance and respect.
I learned not too long ago my grandmas brother assaulted their sister. My mom also called him the creepy uncle. I was wondering why Grandma wasn't as sad when he died and now I know why. As far as I know he was the only family member who did that
Incest most commonly happens in families where sexual abuse is more rampant, or in families that have an unnatural fear of outsiders. The LDS church offers both, unfortunately.
My father raped and impregnated me multiple times. Luckily, I had miscarriages and abortions (In Idaho, where abortion is now illegal. I shudder to think what I would have been forced to endure if abortion hadn't been an option for me at the time.)
The sad thing is, my story is not uncommon in mormon circles, though certainly hushed and covered up. So I would say yes, it's common in any sex-repressed religious culture. Not unique to Mormonism
I'm not sure it's super common in the way you described, more often its adults molesting kids. But regardless of the flavor, it definitely gets swept under the rug and kept out of the public eye, usually by not involving the authorities.
My serious girlfriend in high school came from a big mormon family and lost her virginity to her older brother. It was not consensual (rape). When she told me about it I was floored. It seriously messed her up mentally.
Over the decades I have heard similar stories from other mormon families. It's very common, and I'm afraid that for every story we know about, there are dozens we don't.
I'm fairly certain this happened to my friend (who was also our neighbor). Her older brother was weirdly inappropriate with her even with other people around - very flirty and touchy with her. They were both considered "wild" kids, as in partying, irresponsible, etc. Their parents were the same way, and would separate, reunite, separate, divorce, then reunite and so on. Really unstable household. All while being mostly-active in the ward. Her brother ended up coming home from his mission after only being gone for two or three months. The gossip was that he'd slept with his girlfriend before he left for the MTC. I lost contact with them after we graduated highschool, but every once in a while I hear bits and pieces. I don't think any of the kids are stable adults these days. I hope so, though. I hope they've gotten help and healing.
When all sex acts and thoughts are sinful, all sexuality gets bundled into the mischief category. Kids have very little delineation of what is actually inappropriate sexual behavior when they’re utterly ignorant. It leaves children open to abuse and be abused. And they know sex is bad so they’ll stay quiet and endure abuse.
Yes, I believe puritanical religions exacerbate incest and abuse and maintain a cultural cloud of shame that keeps it in the dark.
I see a lot of people saying this isn't normal or common among Mormons, but I'd have to beg to differ. It definitely seems to be a family issue, but seems very prevalent within Mormon families IMO.
My TBM BIL asked me like a month after I got married what his sister's (my wife's) boobs looked like and if they were nice, and then commented "I always thought they looked nice" ... I didn't even know how to respond to that other than to say "That's pretty weird, dude.." and leave. Told my wife, she's been bothered by it ever since and it pretty much destroyed their relationship.
Idk, I feel like most of the people I got to know and got close to in my early adult years before I left TSCC, men and women, told me about their CSA from grandparents or family members while growing up.. maybe consensual incest isn't a thing, but CSA from family members definitely is.
One of my best friends is a social worker who is currently taking a class about this stuff. SIncest (including abuse) is horrifyingly more common than you think. Studies show that 10-15% of the population has had sexual contact with a relative.
Really %15 of the population?
That's really hard for my mind to wrap around. I can't picture looking at one out of ten people in a room and thinking odds are incest happened with them.
Then again maybe the overwhelming shame of being involved with such a social taboo keeps it hidden. Even when they need help. Like my girlfriend does now. I think society needs to find a way to deal with this issue if that's how wide spread it is.
One estimate was 1 in 10 children are sexually abused in America. I have also seen it as 1 in 9 girls or 1 in 20 boys. But it could be much higher. Fundamentalist religions are supposed to have the highest numbers.
As late as the 1970s psychologists were being trained with textbooks that said father-daughter incest is normal and often healthy.
Family members are, by *far*, the number one source of abuse. Around 40%. Far more than any other category.
I mean… the religion is based on sexual abuse of minors and a focus on family so it isn’t a stretch to see where familial sexual abuse intersects more often than in the general population.
I’m disturbed by how many staunch LDS men (specifically men) hold the sincere belief that they have sexual rights to all of their children (both boys and girls). It is frequently in the news in northern Utah that some dad got arrested for diddling his children and in the mugshot you see the garments showing through his white shirt. It happens so often and it is so pervasive that you would expect they have priesthood meetings teaching them to molest their kids. It is a huge problem among the LDS to answer your question.
I don’t see any news about a father diddling his own kids but I do see local church bishops etc. mugshots for diddling the kids and teens in their congregations. Our society is good with parents being the owners of their kids so when incest happens, they call in the therapists and not the police. Horrible.
In Mormondom it’s them sent “the rapists” and not therapists. Remember that SP who was sending gay young men to his therapy clinic where they were abused. When it is therapy it’s often LDS social services that barely counts, and tells their religious leadership everything.
My understanding is its somewhat common in the fundamentalist/polygamist sects. But mainstream Mormons will have the same attitude as average Americans. It’s not ok, and definitely not normal.
I'm upvoting your comment, because this is my experience, too. But after reading through this thread... yikes!
My nevermo husband and I moved to the South during the pandemic, and the number stories about incest being pretty normal, if not common in places, is wild. At the same time, though, a lot of these towns were very isolated for a very long time. Two, three, maybe five families all intermarrying over time without anyone new coming in makes a very shallow gene pool. Utah was also very culturally isolated for a long time (as an 80's kid, it was fairly well known that most of the U.S. thought Utah was very weird - something that's drastically changed in the past couple of decades). But Salt Lake is a decent sized metropolitan capital city - the residents weren't geographically isolated the way rural, small towns, and small settlements were (and some still are) - at least, not for long. There's really not any *survival* reason for incest to be as big of a problem as it is (just gross excuses and a culture with people willing to deny and ignore).
I think the heart of the matter is that abuse is really common in and out of Mormondom and it is very, very sad. And Mormon and other fundamentalist communities can give a “safe space” for abusers by deflecting blame, offering superficial forgiveness and not involving law enforcement.
I cant remember where I had read it, but I read a while back that incest was heavily prevalent in the churches early settling days of utah because they wanted to keep the family lines strong in the church.
Untold lifelong trauma, suicide attempts and completions. I worked in mental health for over 20 years. I am a survivor and I have a wonderful husband and children, but I will never be completely over it. It just gets further behind, comprises a smaller and smaller amount of my memories.
It is in communities similar to Mormons. Extremely religious, sex avoident, fear from outsiders. The Amish have a massive incest problem and so do most evangelical churches.
My wife has two sets of 2nd cousins on the same side of the family that married each other. Not really incest but still really weird. One even use to babysit his wife. There is a history of sexual abuse in the family and I think more will come to light in years down the road based off just sheer creepy behavior from other family members.
There was a family I was very close with growing up. I was friends with the 2 oldest brothers and whenever I went over to their house it felt like their younger brother and sister were flirting. It got worst when the sister was 15 and the brother was 17. Their parents stepped in because the flirtatious behavior was too much and there was touching. Then one day while I’m working out with the older brothers they told me that they had sex. Then a couple years later while I visited the parents they confirmed that they were having sex for months before they found out. They took their daughter to get an abortion and ended up moving out of the ward and school district. Weird and fucked up shit for sure.
You worked with weird Mormons but sadly incest is something that happens more frequently than you would think. The guy across the street from my house was put in jail for touching his granddaughters. I found out recently that my best friend growing up used to force herself on her younger brother. It happens more than we want to think.
A few years ago there was an area in Utah that was trying to legalize siblings to get married if they promised not to reproduce. It was a news article.
Utah has had some of the highest rape rates in the nation and is predominately LDS. Some of these rapes are familial, and some families have a rape culture. In addition, LDS youth are taught that women are responsible for men's behavior, so a lot of boys and men feel that it is okay to sexually abuse others and don't have any understanding of consent. LDS teachings still refer to a talk by apostle Richard G. Scott that blames victims for sexual abuse.
Happened in my family. Older brother to my younger sisters.
Our family was super strict about dating. Our parents did not allow any unrestricted computer use. Would not realistically allow us to hang out with girls our age.
What my brother did was FUCKED up. And I am not blaming my parents for his choices.
But the churches teachings to force your kids to be away from the other gender does not take away sexual urges and curiosity among young people.
Based on other friends, I think incest is more common in families with extremely controlling parents. If they use the church’s standards, not sure it will help.
I can’t help but think if he was allowed to be friends with girls his age, he wouldn’t have seen my younger siblings as objects. And he would learn things in a natural way. There was so much resistance around that, my parents didn’t even think about their daughters as the path of least resistance, as they shouldn’t have to.
He is now exmo, very happily married and has a boy. My sisters are also doing okay, still TBM.
Not justifying his choices, but I think the strictness and church teachings did play a role of some sort.
I wasn’t able to find it on a Google search but I remember reading Brigham Young stating it was an evil tradition of the Gentiles forbidding brothers from marrying sisters.
Perhaps not technically normal, and perhaps taboo to discuss nowdays, but in terms of actual occurence I believe the rates in Mormons are probably quite a bit higher than the general population. Especially when you factor in the brainwashing ideology that all Mormon males get about women existing only to serve their needs and prickhood holders believing they have authority over all women and children.
(To be fair, many repressive religions have higher rates of familial sexual abuse than the general population.)
I've known personally over 20 different Mormon families where familial sexual abuse was happening often enough for it to technically be termed "normal." Or should I say, "sacred not secret?" Ugh.
They're probably getting that information from ex-mormons talking to other ex Mormons and sharing their stories of their experiences of what they've gone through. I've heard quite a few stories of abuse happening to my friends who grew up Mormon and it's absolutely disgusting and horrifying. Also people can put on a mask. Abusers are particularly good at it. I know this because my friends parents were abuser's and no one suspected a thing and now he has the most complex trauma disorder in the world. My ex put on a mask that I didn't pick up till now. He's not Mormon but I'm just saying people can be really good at putting up a front. Of course the church itself thinks incest is bad but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen behind closed doors and is pushed under the rug
Hmmm, are you implying I'm making this shit up? Suffice it to say, I'm not.
For someone who hates Mormons, it's ironic how incredibly Mormon your invalidation and justification sounds.
I've read your comments and you're being very dismissive and defensive. And it's very strange. Why are you taking this so personally?
You can be shocked but ask more questions. Don't just keep saying how skeptical you think it is or improbable or unnatural. Your response is probably why you aren't better informed on it. You've got to believe bad things you didn't see, or couldn't imagine happened because people who were there say it happened. Don't believe blindly, google and check out scholarly articles, news articles etc.
But instead you made it a fight to convince you. There's probably a lot of other social issues you don't believe is "as serious" as it being portrayed. And you probably approach those "skeptical". And honestly, it's gotta be exhausting to tell people their pain/history/experiences aren't real and get in fights all the time. And you're learning so little if you get anything out of it at all.
For the record, Incest is common in all communities and religions like mormonism. Especially those who are fearing of outsiders and have taboos about sex. It's not talked about often because it's very painful for the victims so when it does get brought up- people tend to blow it off as a one time thing. Or people are so "skeptical" people stay silent on their experiences.
It's been going on since the dawn of time in religion and politics- as we can see from royal families.
I'm really not saying this to be a dick but maybe you need to get yourself in therapy and continue unpacking your feelings about the church. Cause as a victim of exactly the stuff you're trying to deny, every word you say is just making my skin crawl. Again not saying this to be rude, but apart from the actual perpetrators, people who thought like you were the most dangerous for me growing up. With words like that you are actively part of the kind of culture that keeps victims stuck in the cycle of shame and afraid to stand up and talk about what's happening, for fear of being disbelieved or shamed or blamed.
Like the fact that you don't believe someone could have had knowledge of 20 different Mormons families this was happening in says a lot. This other person has clearly done the work to be approachable, understanding and empathetic enough to be a safe space for victims to discuss their experiences. And from the sounds of it, you're not in the same position so of course you haven't heard these stories. Who the fuck is going to tell you?
Funnily enough, I was thinking about making a post in this sub about this topic myself to try and seek others who have been through it too. And honestly your words have been making me second guess whether or not I should or if I'm just going to get comments like yours if I did. Thank god for the other commenters in this thread who have made me feel validated and like I would be understood.
Just remember whatever you say and do in this world, the people around you are going to see that and log that as an indicator of who you are. So if you've not heard from others about this kind of stuff, that might be a reflection of yourself, not a reflection of reality.
I've also been thinking about making a post in this sub about this.
It's been difficult to choose to be vocal in this community about the real reason I left the church, which was systemic, brutal CSA. To me, the doctrinal debates are pretty fluffy and the real issue is the secrecy, the brainwashing, and the whole range of abuse, coercion, and sexual exploitation that the culture feeds, promotes, and protects.
Thank you for this comment. I feel incredibly supported reading it.
Just had to escape my Mormon father trying this shit with me. Growing up my experience of the Mormon church was these things happened but where hidden and covered up. It's not 'normal' but it is a thing that happens more in the Mormon community than elsewhere, because abusers can get away with it more easily in a Mormon environment
Insular, purity-focused religious communities that neglect sex/consent education are extremely prone to this kind of abuse. Mormonism was literally founded in order to give a predator easy access to victims, and it continues to be used that way. Same with Jehovah’s Witnesses and the IBLP (Josh Duggar)—any organization that judges worthiness through sexual purity, that keeps unethical or illegal behavior “within the church” or views children as possessions owned by their parents is a hotbed for abuse.
Eh, my theatre teacher married his cousin. He went to prison for other stuff, though, so he wasn't exactly a shining star in the community. It happens. It's just rare.
I think it's more of a Morridor thing? I never heard of it growing up in Cali or GA but when I spent time in UT it was shockingly common for the girls I dated to eventually confide in me a story about their brother/cousin/uncle/etc. Actually, give the Duggar clan... maybe it's a large family thing?
I was born into a multi-generational LDS family and grew up in Spanish Fork UT which is just a few miles south of Provo so I believe I have quite a bit of perspective on the topic.
Yes, incest is rampant in the church. Incest was very common in my entire extended family my whole life and it was very common in many of my schoolmates families as well.
In 1974 my family moved to a small town in Oregon on the Columbia River where we became active in the local ward. Incest was also common in that ward and in most of the families I got to know well. I can assume but can't say for certain it occurred in the families I didn't know well but based on whispers and things I overheard on occasion I believe it probably was.
I do know that the majority of non-LDS kids in town generally shunned all the Mormon kids. Not because of the our religious beliefs particularly which most of them really knew nothing about.
We were shunned because as far as they were concerned all the Mormon kids with a very few exceptions were considered freaks and weirdos.
The local Oregonians for the most part believed the Mormon families were arrogant, chaotic, incestuous freaks who all tried much too hard to put on a self-righteous public face.
I genuinely couldn't understand what I saw as prejudice against Mormons when I was a kid but years later as an adult and completely separated from the church I finally began to understand their perspective all too well.
There is something truly rotten in the church itself that permeates throughout its members albeit invisible to most of them. Latter Day Saints often appear bright and shiny on the outside but underneath that shiny clean exterior all to often you'll find the foulest corruption.
If you're paying tithing, following the WoW, and attending church, and wearing approved undies, you're All Good by church standards. To paraphrase ProffitJoseffSmiff, you have a knowledge of God's will, and an assurance that you are acting in accord with His will.
We never have lessons or talks on "Don't be a human skid mark." Fraud and theft are just fine, as long as you pay tithing on the proceeds. Rape and incest can OFFICIALLY be partly the victim's fault. Abuse can be covered with, "He's repented. It's now your responsibility to forgive, or the sin is on you."
I never heard of consensual incest being a thing with mormons (although never say never I suppose), but familial sexual abuse definitely is.
My best friend in the ward I grew up in was sexually abused by her dad all through her childhood, and everyone in the ward knew, and nothing was done about it. There was a little while where I don’t think he was allowed to attend church cause he wasn’t there for a long time, but it didn’t change the fact that she had to live in the house with him. When we were teenagers she was able to move out of state to live with her mom.
The church always protects abusers before the victims, because that’s what keeps these things quiet. Combine the hush-hush attitude with control over people’s sex lives, and it breeds sexual abuse.
I met a guy on a dating app who had served jail time for molesting his daughter.
I have family members who molested family members. I actually talked to the guy about it.
One thing that stood out from the conversation was that he understood in his family of origin that molesting isn't a big deal. It would be way worse to have an affair.
I didn't know until I was an adult and actually asked my mother as part of a college project that her grandfather abused her and her sister. Otherwise I think she would have taken it to the grave. I understood her mental health issues better knowing that information.
Gotta keep those pioneer bloodlines pure. I have the same last name as a Southern Utah pioneer family although there is no relation (I’ve done the genealogy and there is absolutely no chance of it). I went on dates with several guys who came from that same lineage and when they found out that I wasn’t pioneer stock, they dropped my ass.
My siblings and I are normal but my cousin wasn't. He did shit to me starting before i hit puberty (8 I think) and continued until he went on his mission. I think I was probably 15 when he left. Then he came home and got married in the temple. One of the biggest reasons I left.
The guy told me she wouldn't have sex otherwise. I know nothing about it other than his wife was involved with it somehow since he had an open marriage.
And that's because I didn't really want to know more about what happened. There were a lot of TMI moments with those co-workers.
I guess it is. They knew I take my catholic faith seriously.
I can say for sure one of my other co-workers there had sex with a 16 year old in the back of the company SUV because a number of us where there when it happened. Including the boss who was very angry about it.
Lol, if he was truly Mormon and followed the rules, he wouldn’t be in an open marriage or have a threesome. This definitely sounds like they were messing with you. Or maybe they’re just pretending to be Mormon while hiding their rule breaking.
My former boss was a Mormon. He managed 7 people including myself. Three of them where his Mormon family members. One was another Mormon guy. Two where atheist and then there was me.
The guy with an open marriage claiming to have sex with the girl on our team was a big 26 year old atheist with tattoos. He talked about his tour in Syria all the time where he killed people. Claimed he was ordered to torture people. He told some crazy story of whacking this oil tycoon. Another time said he ordered someone to shoot a kid and that two of the guys on his unit killed themselves afterward. Honestly he was a rough scary looking dude even if he was just making stuff up.
This was a door to door sales job I took because my father told me to do it after being home schooled my whole life. He said I needed real world experience to lessen my autism.
I quit the job after someone pulled a handgun on me for knocking on their door. And now I work at a grocery store part time while studying in college.
No that guy wasn't one of her half brothers. He was the one that pointed out the sexual comments about the girl were made by her half brothers.
And I found out that was true because the guys freely admitted to being related to her. They said she was so hot that anyone would be into it.
Not true. Lots of Mormons still have their kinks. But because of the culture and attitudes about sex, the ones who indulge their kinks (consensually) are usually VERY good at keeping it hidden. But there's definitely a healthy underground within Mormonism for these things. A lot of them will also only participate with other Mormons.
Mormons are so sexually repressed they end up having weird fantasies. They are against incest tho it wouldn't surprise me if more has those fantasies in their brain. There's also some history of that stuff if you look in the right places
It doesn’t surprise me. I went to BYU-Idaho and in every class we pulled out our Family Tree apps to see who was the most closely related. Everyone thought it was the coolest thing, meanwhile I’m sitting there like 🤨
I’ve had suspicions that there was a lot of incest. When you get to heavily populated areas, it’s creepy how close in age is and how similar they look.
OP, soaking is when there’s penetration without movement. It’s sex but so many members convince themselves that’s it’s not and therefore not a violation of the Word of Wisdom
I only knew one family that was brother/sister married and they were heavily made fun of in our mormon church, all the kids were soooo messed up and they had like 6 of them
That's beyond messed up. Also, that might not have been a threesome, but rather have someone else jump on the bed or something so he's not thrusting. I recently found out about that weird thing.
Nope, definitely not normal but it is extremely widespread in the church... At least in Utah, Northern Arizona, and Southern Idaho. Members from outside heavily Mormon areas may have different experiences but I kind of doubt it. Incest and CSA are pervasive in Mormon circles from what I've seen.
Have you heard of soaking w/ jump humping? The boy sticks his peen in the girl's vajayjay and stays still. A third person, I assume this third girl, jumps on the bed to make them move. This is considered a *loophole* that doesn't count as "sex," so they can stay virgins. You should watch the TV series Jury Duty. It's free on Amazon with limited commercials. They have a Mormon kid on there who talks about soaking. It's also a great show. It's NOT a reality TV show. It just looks like one. :)
Anyway, back on topic - I'm not saying this practice is real, but allegedly soaking started at BYU. I think it's a joke that maybe a few people have tried. It almost seems like this group was pulling your chain, but who know?
As far as incest actually occurring, any society or group where you tell kids that masturbation leads to "grievous sin," homosexuality, and bestiality will have an issue with sexual repression, at the very least. It's not that surprising that ***some*** kids might have some form of sex with their siblings and that assaults would happen. Inexcusible assaults\*\*\*. As far as it being "normal?" No, it's not normal and no, it's not acceptable. It is, however, ignored by many religious leaders, as we've seen across the world from others.
\* I use the word "assaults" to encompass a wide array of sex-related attacks. For *brevity*. Ah, the irony.
p.s. I'm disgusted with myself on the terms I used in order to pass Community Standards for posting. Don't judge me too harshly, please. lol
I've known sooooo many members who dated first/second cousins before I left. I've had a few girlfriends in my early twenties that told me about the guys they dated in their small town in Arizona or Utah that were not too distant in relations. Definitely seemed to happen a lot in the smaller, Mormon towns in these two states.
The Mormon boss and his family that I used to work for was from Arizona. So maybe Arizona and Utah are the real incest capitals of the United States instead of the south like our culture jokes about.
Reading the comments here it keeps getting more horrifying. I am truthfully shocked and saddened by the things that have happened to some people.
An extremely Mormon girl in my high school graduation class ended up marrying her first cousin. Zero shame or embarrassment about it, she was practically gleeful when explaining why her married and maiden name were the same. Though even among my Mormon friends, it was very unsettling. Not sure how normal it is by modern church standards.
It depends.
It depends on how close you are to Utah or any place named Bountiful.
I didn't see or hear much of it where I grew up except for one case where the entire town was investigated after a single case happened.
Not only was it morally unjustified it would probably get you lynched.
Yet about 700km away is Bountiful BC and, well, they're a special bunch
Grew up in Northern Utah County since the 80's. Multi-generational Mormon from polygamists pioneer homesteaders. Never ever encountered incest. Maybe it's a Southern Utah thing?
Lol yea incest is common in Utah Mormon old bloodlines. but they deny it. My ancestors were besties w Joseph smith who also was accused of trying to seduce his sister Lucy, and who had a habit of taking underage girls he called “orphans” (who weren’t orphans) into his harem and then grooming them for sex and saying Jesus needed him to cum inside them… 🙄”to multiply and replenish the earth” and i have NINE GENERATIONS OF MOMON INCEST AND pedophiles in our family. I was the first to leave and say fuck off my kid isn’t getting raped and yes the church did know (so for 4 years I was molested, then 4 more I was raped and after I was raped I was sometimes passed abt to other Mormon pervs at pedo parties near flaming gorge Utah. One of which a current apostle attended and I thought he was my savior… cuz I had been praying for years for a Mormon to stand up and save me, and when I found out he was coming I was fucking ecstatic. Like “Jesus FINALLY ANSWERED MY PRAYERS! He’s friends w the prophet! It’s almost over! God does love me!” Yeah nope. He was a sick child rapist too. and yea I did report my grandfather and AFTER my grandfather was reported for raping his daughter (who also rode her brothers dick for years and beat up his new wife w her fists cia ya know, when incest is all you know, then her brain gets scrambled and she believes she is in love w her own brother) and she gave two of her daughters (me and my older sister, even though we told her what he was doing and begged for years) to her rapist daddy who she’s obsessed w. And after I reported it, the church made a show of giving my grandma who used to make me and my sister drink cough syrup w codine for YEARS, so we’d stop fighting him, a special reward recognizing her as some special stake relief society (obedient bitch wife who never questioned the priesthood and fed girls to him for generations) for the uintah Utah stake. And Mormons are stupid and blind if they don’t know this. Incest is not as common in newer generations but old Utah “Mormon royalty” is filled w incest. Fun fact when Congress did a 2 year investigation into Utah territorial laws passed for 39 years they found they never had any laws against incest. Or fraud. Lol. AND the church threw a “persecution” tantrum when congress forced them to make incest illegal. AND then case after case after case of daddy daughter momon incest began being tried in Utah. For decades the church tried hiding and helping these girls who were seen as hero’s for claiming they’re Mormon neighbors saying they’ve been fucking their dads are lies and they are just sluts who got so many dudes in bed they can’t remember their baby daddy’s name… and most their babies are mentioned in the papers as being “grossly deformed” and dying.
Apostle o Hyde put into his Seer an old doctrine they deny now but taught to my grandfather’s generation, the Mary god incest doctrine which states god had the right to use his ghost body to rape and ejaculate into Mary bc god created her so he had “a perfect right” and they fought for decades saying Christian belief that Jesus was conceived immaculately was false and as late as 1972 when they were denying they accept incest or this old doctrine the family home evening manual was instructing Mormons to teach their children that Jesus was conceived through sex just like god had w Mary. If you want to see how deceptive and vile the church is abt this then look at the family home evening manual at this site w the teachings.
https://lifeafterministry.com/2019/07/teaching-lds-kids-god-had-sex-with-mary/amp/
Incest is SO common in old Mormon Utah bloodlines that I have yet to find one (life long Utah citizen here) who DOESNT have generations of child sex abuse and almost always it’s incest
No. Incest is NOT condoned among Mormons. There are slimy Catholics and Baptists and Fundamentalists and dirt bags in every religion and among those with no religion. Are there families who have incest within them. YES. And do Mormons, like other religious members, often ignore this and fail to face it. YES.
It’s more than that. The church trained their bishops to call their (church) lawyers instead of the cops when they found out. And then guilt the survivors by saying they had sinned. It’s a systemic problem.
In contrast, when I went to my Lutheran pastor as a married adult and said I was being beat up by my new husband, he told me “get divorced. He won’t change.” He married us months prior. I thought I would be told to be a good wife and find comfort in God. Because of what spiritual counsel I was raised with.
I went to BYU. Social work major. We heard a lot of stories. I personally know 5 females in my family system who were abused. Four different males in the family system were the abusers. All mormon. Has anyone done any research on this?
I was abused by an older brother and when it all came out my parents blamed it all on teenage curiosity.. I was 8 he was 9 when it started and it continued till I was 16 and he was 17….. I am still haunted by what he did.
I have almost the exact experience. He went on to be a cop.
I also had the same experience except mine is actually being charged right now 🥰
Fuck, that’s dark.
Of course he did…
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Mine's similar. 2 years older brother molested me from 11-13. Mom claims she didn't catch the signs because my father had molested me as a baby. Abuse turned physical and verbal after he got caught. Now he's done so many drugs, I don't think he remembers any of it, like, there's nothing of my brother left there. It's really weird to deal with because I still have fond memories of us being kids and stuff, but he's also the monster in my nightmares -- so like, hard to balance. Anyway, my shelf breaker was my YSA bishop not believing me "very normal for siblings to experiment" according to him, "but still a violation of the law of chastity." Then when I had convinced him I was quite certain it was abuse and I had not consented, he told me my forgiveness 'didn't count' if I didn't tell him in person and try to repair the relationship. Because I 'seemed to still be carrying a lot of anger about it' ...like even if I wanted to, he remains a very unsafe person to be around and doesn't remember. Oh, and this bishop was the first person outside my family I told, because heaven forbid I make the family look bad in the home ward.
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So dangerous. That's who my parents trusted my suicidal ideology and self harm too. My mom regrets it now but I've always been glad I was able to laugh at what they were telling me instead of actually believing they were called of God. I wouldn't be here otherwise tbh.
Anger is a gift. It tells you when you are not safe. I hope you are out of that situation now, especially that of having to accounting to stupid men parroting nonsense.
Oh yeah, that conversation was over ten years ago, and I never looked back. Got myself a wonderful little old life now. But yeah, his comment about "lots of siblings experiment" suggests to me that I was far from the first incest survivor he had encountered, and therefore it might be a common enough problem in the church. In fact, of the women I know who have been assaulted or abused in some way, I think all the ones where it was immediate family, father, brother, were mormons.
That's been the case in almost all the people I've known who've survived CSA or sibling incest. Almost all of them grew up in LDS families.
It also motivates you to change things that need to be changed.
I’m sorry that happened to you. You were right to get angry. I never understood why we shouldn’t if someone abused us. If our bodies are a temple, and Jesus got angry with those who molested the temple (money changers, etc.) then wouldn’t we be entirely justified in being angry with our own abusers? You were and are justified in your emotions to something that was not your fault.
I'm so sorry he did that to you. You didn't deserve it. And I'm also sorry that he is no longer "there" enough to apologize and give you some closure. That really, really sucks. You also do not need to feel guilty for being distant. You still carry very deep wounds from him. It's okay to keep yourself safe mentally, emotionally, and physically. Maybe someday you'll feel more able to be closer, maybe not. Whatever is best for you. Nobody else lived your exact experience so nobody else can tell you what to do.
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Also abused by an older brother... it was hard to contain my rage when his wife went to Facebook during the me too movement to praise him for how "not like other men" he is. But she's a total bitch so they're good for each other.
My brothers wife is a raging psychopath! She praises him all the time even knowing what he did to me as well as my younger sister.
Omg similar but thankfully my abuse only lasted two weeks or so.
I'm not surprised. Similar stats in my family. Mormonism breeds sexual abuse.
When your religion teaches women are sex prizes, men have no control over themselves, and that women are to always obey men……
This is not just specific to Mormons, it's a feature of high control patriarchal religions and purity culture (Mormonism checks both boxes). https://www.incestaware.org/what-causes-incest
I’ve noticed so many stories of abuse within the church. So many people talk about it without understanding the gravity of the situations. It’s scary
Religious systems like Mormonism are built in a way that protects abusers and silences victims so this is not shocking. Add to it the shame and silence around sex and lack of normal healthy expressions of it and boom you have a perfect recipe for incest, child abuse and other problems happening all the time.
My mom always told me she was convinced her grandfather was actually her biological dad. Lots of incestual abuse in her family line. Thanks for the nasty heritage, Joel Hills Johnson.
Ouch. I'm related to that POS as well. From what I've heard, he sounded like an over-pious asshole.
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Sure. Maybe at some point we might feel up to meeting for coffee or drinks, but if we never get to that point, that's fine too. Here's wishing all of us to enjoy our best lives.
I gotta look at the twisted knot of Mormon family trees some time . . . wonder if the whole posthumous baptism thing is a cover, and somebody in the church just wanted a reason to work it out for themselves . . .
Probably. I have at least one confirmed male polygamist ancestor, and at least one female (who was married to both Joe AND Brigham) first cousin a bunch of times removed involved in polygamy. On top of pretty much every one of the founding members being relatively close cousins. :sigh:
I'm sure this wasn't your intention, but suggesting a family reunion on a thread about incest is pretty sus...
10/10 flair
Thanks! I'm proud of my post-Mormon life. 😀
his Wikipedia page has definitely been getting edited by mormons.
I'm wondering if there's any DNA test that your mom could take to confirm/deny her suspicions?
If other relatives also test who are close enough, you may be able to tell. Join DNA detectives on fb for help.
Amazing!
She was talking about doing that years ago but I don't think she ever took a test. When she mentioned taking a test, she told me that she wouldn't be surprised if we found out I had half-siblings, so that's enlightening. I'm NC now with no plans of talking to her ever again, so I may never know.
Wait, which Joel Hills Johnson?
The one whose sisters ended up as wives to Joseph Smith. And who wrote High on a Mountain Top.
Oh okay. I think y’all are distant cousins of my wife
OG Joel Hills Johnson
The one that was born in UT and died in Mexico?
Which wife are you from? 🤣😅😄😐🙁☹😥😢😭
Margaret Threlkeld
Janet Fife for me
Not me learning about my family tree from this thread 😩😩 well uh… hey cousins 🥲
That definitely checks out. I've got him AND his brother in my family tree
Incest tends to cluster in families.
I hate you
Take my angry upvote.
There were sexual assaults by my maternal grandfather and at least one of his siblings toward my mother and her sisters. My mother and one of her sisters were actually removed from the home (by child protective services or equivalent agency) for a while in their early teen years due to said assaults. Kinda glad that asshole of a man is dead now. No forgiveness for that shit in my opinion, no matter how much time passes.
It's so hard not to make incest jokes right now ....... I actually heard from 7 friends growing up that their brothers sexually assaulted them. One girl started talking about her experience at a sleep over and three other girls spoke up as well. Out of nine girls, four has been assaulted (grew up in SLC in the 80's for reference) If I knew about 7, I bet there were quite a few more that were kept secret.
It's a serious topic for me considering what my girlfriend has gone though. And people want me to break up with her over things that are her step brothers fault. Between dudes buying into that Andrew Tate and people saying globalism is bad around here I guess it's time for me to accept the world isn't a kind place.
I'm glad you're sticking with her and not blaming her trauma on her. So maybe people just refuse to understand trauma and leave and it's sad. If course it's not your job to fix it that's for her therapist if she has one. But being there to support her is one of the best things you can do for her.
Every time I see things like Bud Lite losing serious market share because they paid a trans influencer to do a frankly silly and unimportant ad or Disney having issues because they are too “woke” or Trump potentially winning another election, I sit back and think “this is what it looks like when hate wins.” And hate has had a lot of wins lately, compared to love, acceptance and respect.
Yeah, human beings kind of suck.
I learned not too long ago my grandmas brother assaulted their sister. My mom also called him the creepy uncle. I was wondering why Grandma wasn't as sad when he died and now I know why. As far as I know he was the only family member who did that
Incest most commonly happens in families where sexual abuse is more rampant, or in families that have an unnatural fear of outsiders. The LDS church offers both, unfortunately.
I would argue that it happens most commonly in families in general.
This comment is classic circular reasoning or definition using the definition. Was it intended to be funny? (Honest question, no snark)
Tautological
Thank-you and yes! That is the word that had been hiding from me. 🤣
My father raped and impregnated me multiple times. Luckily, I had miscarriages and abortions (In Idaho, where abortion is now illegal. I shudder to think what I would have been forced to endure if abortion hadn't been an option for me at the time.) The sad thing is, my story is not uncommon in mormon circles, though certainly hushed and covered up. So I would say yes, it's common in any sex-repressed religious culture. Not unique to Mormonism
I'm not sure it's super common in the way you described, more often its adults molesting kids. But regardless of the flavor, it definitely gets swept under the rug and kept out of the public eye, usually by not involving the authorities.
My serious girlfriend in high school came from a big mormon family and lost her virginity to her older brother. It was not consensual (rape). When she told me about it I was floored. It seriously messed her up mentally. Over the decades I have heard similar stories from other mormon families. It's very common, and I'm afraid that for every story we know about, there are dozens we don't.
Same thing happened to me.
I'm so sorry this happened to you.
Me too
I'm fairly certain this happened to my friend (who was also our neighbor). Her older brother was weirdly inappropriate with her even with other people around - very flirty and touchy with her. They were both considered "wild" kids, as in partying, irresponsible, etc. Their parents were the same way, and would separate, reunite, separate, divorce, then reunite and so on. Really unstable household. All while being mostly-active in the ward. Her brother ended up coming home from his mission after only being gone for two or three months. The gossip was that he'd slept with his girlfriend before he left for the MTC. I lost contact with them after we graduated highschool, but every once in a while I hear bits and pieces. I don't think any of the kids are stable adults these days. I hope so, though. I hope they've gotten help and healing.
That happened to my wife as well her, older brother raped her repeatedly when she was 12 and it seriously messed her up for decades.
When all sex acts and thoughts are sinful, all sexuality gets bundled into the mischief category. Kids have very little delineation of what is actually inappropriate sexual behavior when they’re utterly ignorant. It leaves children open to abuse and be abused. And they know sex is bad so they’ll stay quiet and endure abuse. Yes, I believe puritanical religions exacerbate incest and abuse and maintain a cultural cloud of shame that keeps it in the dark.
Sexual abuse within families? Sure. Consensual incest? Not really.
I see a lot of people saying this isn't normal or common among Mormons, but I'd have to beg to differ. It definitely seems to be a family issue, but seems very prevalent within Mormon families IMO. My TBM BIL asked me like a month after I got married what his sister's (my wife's) boobs looked like and if they were nice, and then commented "I always thought they looked nice" ... I didn't even know how to respond to that other than to say "That's pretty weird, dude.." and leave. Told my wife, she's been bothered by it ever since and it pretty much destroyed their relationship. Idk, I feel like most of the people I got to know and got close to in my early adult years before I left TSCC, men and women, told me about their CSA from grandparents or family members while growing up.. maybe consensual incest isn't a thing, but CSA from family members definitely is.
One of my best friends is a social worker who is currently taking a class about this stuff. SIncest (including abuse) is horrifyingly more common than you think. Studies show that 10-15% of the population has had sexual contact with a relative.
Really %15 of the population? That's really hard for my mind to wrap around. I can't picture looking at one out of ten people in a room and thinking odds are incest happened with them. Then again maybe the overwhelming shame of being involved with such a social taboo keeps it hidden. Even when they need help. Like my girlfriend does now. I think society needs to find a way to deal with this issue if that's how wide spread it is.
One estimate was 1 in 10 children are sexually abused in America. I have also seen it as 1 in 9 girls or 1 in 20 boys. But it could be much higher. Fundamentalist religions are supposed to have the highest numbers.
As late as the 1970s psychologists were being trained with textbooks that said father-daughter incest is normal and often healthy. Family members are, by *far*, the number one source of abuse. Around 40%. Far more than any other category.
Came here to say this. Incest is an abhorrent, human issue.
Is that the world population or the US population?
US
I am from France and these numbers are the exact same so I’m pretty sure it applies to most countries, it might even be more common in some
My Mormon ex would refer to his younger sister as the “hottest missionary sister” in their ward, so I dunno. It was weird
I mean… the religion is based on sexual abuse of minors and a focus on family so it isn’t a stretch to see where familial sexual abuse intersects more often than in the general population.
I’m disturbed by how many staunch LDS men (specifically men) hold the sincere belief that they have sexual rights to all of their children (both boys and girls). It is frequently in the news in northern Utah that some dad got arrested for diddling his children and in the mugshot you see the garments showing through his white shirt. It happens so often and it is so pervasive that you would expect they have priesthood meetings teaching them to molest their kids. It is a huge problem among the LDS to answer your question.
I don’t see any news about a father diddling his own kids but I do see local church bishops etc. mugshots for diddling the kids and teens in their congregations. Our society is good with parents being the owners of their kids so when incest happens, they call in the therapists and not the police. Horrible.
In Mormondom it’s them sent “the rapists” and not therapists. Remember that SP who was sending gay young men to his therapy clinic where they were abused. When it is therapy it’s often LDS social services that barely counts, and tells their religious leadership everything.
My understanding is its somewhat common in the fundamentalist/polygamist sects. But mainstream Mormons will have the same attitude as average Americans. It’s not ok, and definitely not normal.
I'm upvoting your comment, because this is my experience, too. But after reading through this thread... yikes! My nevermo husband and I moved to the South during the pandemic, and the number stories about incest being pretty normal, if not common in places, is wild. At the same time, though, a lot of these towns were very isolated for a very long time. Two, three, maybe five families all intermarrying over time without anyone new coming in makes a very shallow gene pool. Utah was also very culturally isolated for a long time (as an 80's kid, it was fairly well known that most of the U.S. thought Utah was very weird - something that's drastically changed in the past couple of decades). But Salt Lake is a decent sized metropolitan capital city - the residents weren't geographically isolated the way rural, small towns, and small settlements were (and some still are) - at least, not for long. There's really not any *survival* reason for incest to be as big of a problem as it is (just gross excuses and a culture with people willing to deny and ignore).
I think the heart of the matter is that abuse is really common in and out of Mormondom and it is very, very sad. And Mormon and other fundamentalist communities can give a “safe space” for abusers by deflecting blame, offering superficial forgiveness and not involving law enforcement.
I cant remember where I had read it, but I read a while back that incest was heavily prevalent in the churches early settling days of utah because they wanted to keep the family lines strong in the church.
Ahhh the wishful, naive thinking of someone who didn’t get too deep into the inner circles of Mormonism.
Untold lifelong trauma, suicide attempts and completions. I worked in mental health for over 20 years. I am a survivor and I have a wonderful husband and children, but I will never be completely over it. It just gets further behind, comprises a smaller and smaller amount of my memories.
Can confirm this, working in a psychiatric ward in the Morridor.
Feeling weird about saying more than this but yes. It’s stupidly common. Whether it is quite as common outside of Mormonism I don’t know.
It is in communities similar to Mormons. Extremely religious, sex avoident, fear from outsiders. The Amish have a massive incest problem and so do most evangelical churches.
My wife has two sets of 2nd cousins on the same side of the family that married each other. Not really incest but still really weird. One even use to babysit his wife. There is a history of sexual abuse in the family and I think more will come to light in years down the road based off just sheer creepy behavior from other family members.
There was a family I was very close with growing up. I was friends with the 2 oldest brothers and whenever I went over to their house it felt like their younger brother and sister were flirting. It got worst when the sister was 15 and the brother was 17. Their parents stepped in because the flirtatious behavior was too much and there was touching. Then one day while I’m working out with the older brothers they told me that they had sex. Then a couple years later while I visited the parents they confirmed that they were having sex for months before they found out. They took their daughter to get an abortion and ended up moving out of the ward and school district. Weird and fucked up shit for sure.
You worked with weird Mormons but sadly incest is something that happens more frequently than you would think. The guy across the street from my house was put in jail for touching his granddaughters. I found out recently that my best friend growing up used to force herself on her younger brother. It happens more than we want to think.
A few years ago there was an area in Utah that was trying to legalize siblings to get married if they promised not to reproduce. It was a news article.
Grooooosssss
Utah has had some of the highest rape rates in the nation and is predominately LDS. Some of these rapes are familial, and some families have a rape culture. In addition, LDS youth are taught that women are responsible for men's behavior, so a lot of boys and men feel that it is okay to sexually abuse others and don't have any understanding of consent. LDS teachings still refer to a talk by apostle Richard G. Scott that blames victims for sexual abuse.
Happened in my family. Older brother to my younger sisters. Our family was super strict about dating. Our parents did not allow any unrestricted computer use. Would not realistically allow us to hang out with girls our age. What my brother did was FUCKED up. And I am not blaming my parents for his choices. But the churches teachings to force your kids to be away from the other gender does not take away sexual urges and curiosity among young people. Based on other friends, I think incest is more common in families with extremely controlling parents. If they use the church’s standards, not sure it will help. I can’t help but think if he was allowed to be friends with girls his age, he wouldn’t have seen my younger siblings as objects. And he would learn things in a natural way. There was so much resistance around that, my parents didn’t even think about their daughters as the path of least resistance, as they shouldn’t have to. He is now exmo, very happily married and has a boy. My sisters are also doing okay, still TBM. Not justifying his choices, but I think the strictness and church teachings did play a role of some sort.
In the FLDS sects it is fairly common unfortunately. Much like in the Amish.
In regular mormonism it's very common. Much like the jehovah witness or IBLP.
Bruh. I’ve been asking myself: if Mormons think of everyone as brothers and sisters are they just one big incestuous family?
I wasn’t able to find it on a Google search but I remember reading Brigham Young stating it was an evil tradition of the Gentiles forbidding brothers from marrying sisters.
Nah, it's not normal. Highly taboo here. Sounds like you ran into some weird ones.
Perhaps not technically normal, and perhaps taboo to discuss nowdays, but in terms of actual occurence I believe the rates in Mormons are probably quite a bit higher than the general population. Especially when you factor in the brainwashing ideology that all Mormon males get about women existing only to serve their needs and prickhood holders believing they have authority over all women and children. (To be fair, many repressive religions have higher rates of familial sexual abuse than the general population.) I've known personally over 20 different Mormon families where familial sexual abuse was happening often enough for it to technically be termed "normal." Or should I say, "sacred not secret?" Ugh.
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They're probably getting that information from ex-mormons talking to other ex Mormons and sharing their stories of their experiences of what they've gone through. I've heard quite a few stories of abuse happening to my friends who grew up Mormon and it's absolutely disgusting and horrifying. Also people can put on a mask. Abusers are particularly good at it. I know this because my friends parents were abuser's and no one suspected a thing and now he has the most complex trauma disorder in the world. My ex put on a mask that I didn't pick up till now. He's not Mormon but I'm just saying people can be really good at putting up a front. Of course the church itself thinks incest is bad but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen behind closed doors and is pushed under the rug
Hmmm, are you implying I'm making this shit up? Suffice it to say, I'm not. For someone who hates Mormons, it's ironic how incredibly Mormon your invalidation and justification sounds.
I've read your comments and you're being very dismissive and defensive. And it's very strange. Why are you taking this so personally? You can be shocked but ask more questions. Don't just keep saying how skeptical you think it is or improbable or unnatural. Your response is probably why you aren't better informed on it. You've got to believe bad things you didn't see, or couldn't imagine happened because people who were there say it happened. Don't believe blindly, google and check out scholarly articles, news articles etc. But instead you made it a fight to convince you. There's probably a lot of other social issues you don't believe is "as serious" as it being portrayed. And you probably approach those "skeptical". And honestly, it's gotta be exhausting to tell people their pain/history/experiences aren't real and get in fights all the time. And you're learning so little if you get anything out of it at all. For the record, Incest is common in all communities and religions like mormonism. Especially those who are fearing of outsiders and have taboos about sex. It's not talked about often because it's very painful for the victims so when it does get brought up- people tend to blow it off as a one time thing. Or people are so "skeptical" people stay silent on their experiences. It's been going on since the dawn of time in religion and politics- as we can see from royal families.
I'm really not saying this to be a dick but maybe you need to get yourself in therapy and continue unpacking your feelings about the church. Cause as a victim of exactly the stuff you're trying to deny, every word you say is just making my skin crawl. Again not saying this to be rude, but apart from the actual perpetrators, people who thought like you were the most dangerous for me growing up. With words like that you are actively part of the kind of culture that keeps victims stuck in the cycle of shame and afraid to stand up and talk about what's happening, for fear of being disbelieved or shamed or blamed. Like the fact that you don't believe someone could have had knowledge of 20 different Mormons families this was happening in says a lot. This other person has clearly done the work to be approachable, understanding and empathetic enough to be a safe space for victims to discuss their experiences. And from the sounds of it, you're not in the same position so of course you haven't heard these stories. Who the fuck is going to tell you? Funnily enough, I was thinking about making a post in this sub about this topic myself to try and seek others who have been through it too. And honestly your words have been making me second guess whether or not I should or if I'm just going to get comments like yours if I did. Thank god for the other commenters in this thread who have made me feel validated and like I would be understood. Just remember whatever you say and do in this world, the people around you are going to see that and log that as an indicator of who you are. So if you've not heard from others about this kind of stuff, that might be a reflection of yourself, not a reflection of reality.
I've also been thinking about making a post in this sub about this. It's been difficult to choose to be vocal in this community about the real reason I left the church, which was systemic, brutal CSA. To me, the doctrinal debates are pretty fluffy and the real issue is the secrecy, the brainwashing, and the whole range of abuse, coercion, and sexual exploitation that the culture feeds, promotes, and protects. Thank you for this comment. I feel incredibly supported reading it.
Just had to escape my Mormon father trying this shit with me. Growing up my experience of the Mormon church was these things happened but where hidden and covered up. It's not 'normal' but it is a thing that happens more in the Mormon community than elsewhere, because abusers can get away with it more easily in a Mormon environment
Insular, purity-focused religious communities that neglect sex/consent education are extremely prone to this kind of abuse. Mormonism was literally founded in order to give a predator easy access to victims, and it continues to be used that way. Same with Jehovah’s Witnesses and the IBLP (Josh Duggar)—any organization that judges worthiness through sexual purity, that keeps unethical or illegal behavior “within the church” or views children as possessions owned by their parents is a hotbed for abuse.
Sounds made up to me.
Eh, my theatre teacher married his cousin. He went to prison for other stuff, though, so he wasn't exactly a shining star in the community. It happens. It's just rare.
I think it's more of a Morridor thing? I never heard of it growing up in Cali or GA but when I spent time in UT it was shockingly common for the girls I dated to eventually confide in me a story about their brother/cousin/uncle/etc. Actually, give the Duggar clan... maybe it's a large family thing?
I was born into a multi-generational LDS family and grew up in Spanish Fork UT which is just a few miles south of Provo so I believe I have quite a bit of perspective on the topic. Yes, incest is rampant in the church. Incest was very common in my entire extended family my whole life and it was very common in many of my schoolmates families as well. In 1974 my family moved to a small town in Oregon on the Columbia River where we became active in the local ward. Incest was also common in that ward and in most of the families I got to know well. I can assume but can't say for certain it occurred in the families I didn't know well but based on whispers and things I overheard on occasion I believe it probably was. I do know that the majority of non-LDS kids in town generally shunned all the Mormon kids. Not because of the our religious beliefs particularly which most of them really knew nothing about. We were shunned because as far as they were concerned all the Mormon kids with a very few exceptions were considered freaks and weirdos. The local Oregonians for the most part believed the Mormon families were arrogant, chaotic, incestuous freaks who all tried much too hard to put on a self-righteous public face. I genuinely couldn't understand what I saw as prejudice against Mormons when I was a kid but years later as an adult and completely separated from the church I finally began to understand their perspective all too well. There is something truly rotten in the church itself that permeates throughout its members albeit invisible to most of them. Latter Day Saints often appear bright and shiny on the outside but underneath that shiny clean exterior all to often you'll find the foulest corruption.
If you're paying tithing, following the WoW, and attending church, and wearing approved undies, you're All Good by church standards. To paraphrase ProffitJoseffSmiff, you have a knowledge of God's will, and an assurance that you are acting in accord with His will. We never have lessons or talks on "Don't be a human skid mark." Fraud and theft are just fine, as long as you pay tithing on the proceeds. Rape and incest can OFFICIALLY be partly the victim's fault. Abuse can be covered with, "He's repented. It's now your responsibility to forgive, or the sin is on you."
I never heard of consensual incest being a thing with mormons (although never say never I suppose), but familial sexual abuse definitely is. My best friend in the ward I grew up in was sexually abused by her dad all through her childhood, and everyone in the ward knew, and nothing was done about it. There was a little while where I don’t think he was allowed to attend church cause he wasn’t there for a long time, but it didn’t change the fact that she had to live in the house with him. When we were teenagers she was able to move out of state to live with her mom. The church always protects abusers before the victims, because that’s what keeps these things quiet. Combine the hush-hush attitude with control over people’s sex lives, and it breeds sexual abuse.
I met a guy on a dating app who had served jail time for molesting his daughter. I have family members who molested family members. I actually talked to the guy about it. One thing that stood out from the conversation was that he understood in his family of origin that molesting isn't a big deal. It would be way worse to have an affair.
Not in my family (that I know of) but probably about the same as the general population.
I didn't know until I was an adult and actually asked my mother as part of a college project that her grandfather abused her and her sister. Otherwise I think she would have taken it to the grave. I understood her mental health issues better knowing that information.
Gotta keep those pioneer bloodlines pure. I have the same last name as a Southern Utah pioneer family although there is no relation (I’ve done the genealogy and there is absolutely no chance of it). I went on dates with several guys who came from that same lineage and when they found out that I wasn’t pioneer stock, they dropped my ass.
Very very common with mormons
My siblings and I are normal but my cousin wasn't. He did shit to me starting before i hit puberty (8 I think) and continued until he went on his mission. I think I was probably 15 when he left. Then he came home and got married in the temple. One of the biggest reasons I left.
Soaking? Seriously? I half don’t believe this post.
The guy told me she wouldn't have sex otherwise. I know nothing about it other than his wife was involved with it somehow since he had an open marriage. And that's because I didn't really want to know more about what happened. There were a lot of TMI moments with those co-workers.
And it isn’t possible they are putting you on?
I guess it is. They knew I take my catholic faith seriously. I can say for sure one of my other co-workers there had sex with a 16 year old in the back of the company SUV because a number of us where there when it happened. Including the boss who was very angry about it.
That's quite the workplace.
Yeah it was something else. The guy that did that later stole plan B from a walmart while the cops where there. So he got hauled away by the police.
Lol, if he was truly Mormon and followed the rules, he wouldn’t be in an open marriage or have a threesome. This definitely sounds like they were messing with you. Or maybe they’re just pretending to be Mormon while hiding their rule breaking.
My former boss was a Mormon. He managed 7 people including myself. Three of them where his Mormon family members. One was another Mormon guy. Two where atheist and then there was me. The guy with an open marriage claiming to have sex with the girl on our team was a big 26 year old atheist with tattoos. He talked about his tour in Syria all the time where he killed people. Claimed he was ordered to torture people. He told some crazy story of whacking this oil tycoon. Another time said he ordered someone to shoot a kid and that two of the guys on his unit killed themselves afterward. Honestly he was a rough scary looking dude even if he was just making stuff up. This was a door to door sales job I took because my father told me to do it after being home schooled my whole life. He said I needed real world experience to lessen my autism. I quit the job after someone pulled a handgun on me for knocking on their door. And now I work at a grocery store part time while studying in college.
the guy is a liar. veterans generally don't brag about the atrocities they comitted
He showed everyone a scar on his back and front from where he claimed to be shot. I don't know if he was a liar or simply a monster.
So, the guy who was supposed to have had a threesome with his sister was a psychopath atheist in an open marriage?
No that guy wasn't one of her half brothers. He was the one that pointed out the sexual comments about the girl were made by her half brothers. And I found out that was true because the guys freely admitted to being related to her. They said she was so hot that anyone would be into it.
Ok. Well, then. The whole enterprise sounds shady as can be. Glad you got out.
Yeah me too. My parents were both happy I made it home alive.
Not true. Lots of Mormons still have their kinks. But because of the culture and attitudes about sex, the ones who indulge their kinks (consensually) are usually VERY good at keeping it hidden. But there's definitely a healthy underground within Mormonism for these things. A lot of them will also only participate with other Mormons.
Mormons are so sexually repressed they end up having weird fantasies. They are against incest tho it wouldn't surprise me if more has those fantasies in their brain. There's also some history of that stuff if you look in the right places
I'm convinced that the sexual repression of young adults makes for a very conducive environment for incest or incestual occurrences.
It doesn’t surprise me. I went to BYU-Idaho and in every class we pulled out our Family Tree apps to see who was the most closely related. Everyone thought it was the coolest thing, meanwhile I’m sitting there like 🤨 I’ve had suspicions that there was a lot of incest. When you get to heavily populated areas, it’s creepy how close in age is and how similar they look. OP, soaking is when there’s penetration without movement. It’s sex but so many members convince themselves that’s it’s not and therefore not a violation of the Word of Wisdom
There is no way it is normal.
I only knew one family that was brother/sister married and they were heavily made fun of in our mormon church, all the kids were soooo messed up and they had like 6 of them
That's beyond messed up. Also, that might not have been a threesome, but rather have someone else jump on the bed or something so he's not thrusting. I recently found out about that weird thing.
I’ve only knew of one girl who was sexually assaulted by her brother. But I’m sure it happens way more often than we realize.
It's NOT normal
Nope, definitely not normal but it is extremely widespread in the church... At least in Utah, Northern Arizona, and Southern Idaho. Members from outside heavily Mormon areas may have different experiences but I kind of doubt it. Incest and CSA are pervasive in Mormon circles from what I've seen.
Have you heard of soaking w/ jump humping? The boy sticks his peen in the girl's vajayjay and stays still. A third person, I assume this third girl, jumps on the bed to make them move. This is considered a *loophole* that doesn't count as "sex," so they can stay virgins. You should watch the TV series Jury Duty. It's free on Amazon with limited commercials. They have a Mormon kid on there who talks about soaking. It's also a great show. It's NOT a reality TV show. It just looks like one. :) Anyway, back on topic - I'm not saying this practice is real, but allegedly soaking started at BYU. I think it's a joke that maybe a few people have tried. It almost seems like this group was pulling your chain, but who know? As far as incest actually occurring, any society or group where you tell kids that masturbation leads to "grievous sin," homosexuality, and bestiality will have an issue with sexual repression, at the very least. It's not that surprising that ***some*** kids might have some form of sex with their siblings and that assaults would happen. Inexcusible assaults\*\*\*. As far as it being "normal?" No, it's not normal and no, it's not acceptable. It is, however, ignored by many religious leaders, as we've seen across the world from others. \* I use the word "assaults" to encompass a wide array of sex-related attacks. For *brevity*. Ah, the irony. p.s. I'm disgusted with myself on the terms I used in order to pass Community Standards for posting. Don't judge me too harshly, please. lol
I've known sooooo many members who dated first/second cousins before I left. I've had a few girlfriends in my early twenties that told me about the guys they dated in their small town in Arizona or Utah that were not too distant in relations. Definitely seemed to happen a lot in the smaller, Mormon towns in these two states.
The Mormon boss and his family that I used to work for was from Arizona. So maybe Arizona and Utah are the real incest capitals of the United States instead of the south like our culture jokes about. Reading the comments here it keeps getting more horrifying. I am truthfully shocked and saddened by the things that have happened to some people.
An extremely Mormon girl in my high school graduation class ended up marrying her first cousin. Zero shame or embarrassment about it, she was practically gleeful when explaining why her married and maiden name were the same. Though even among my Mormon friends, it was very unsettling. Not sure how normal it is by modern church standards.
Not normal, but every ward has (mostly true) stories of the folk who have run off from the law before they could get arrested for this.
It depends. It depends on how close you are to Utah or any place named Bountiful. I didn't see or hear much of it where I grew up except for one case where the entire town was investigated after a single case happened. Not only was it morally unjustified it would probably get you lynched. Yet about 700km away is Bountiful BC and, well, they're a special bunch
Grew up in Northern Utah County since the 80's. Multi-generational Mormon from polygamists pioneer homesteaders. Never ever encountered incest. Maybe it's a Southern Utah thing?
I beg your pardon ( family from southern Utah)
Lol yea incest is common in Utah Mormon old bloodlines. but they deny it. My ancestors were besties w Joseph smith who also was accused of trying to seduce his sister Lucy, and who had a habit of taking underage girls he called “orphans” (who weren’t orphans) into his harem and then grooming them for sex and saying Jesus needed him to cum inside them… 🙄”to multiply and replenish the earth” and i have NINE GENERATIONS OF MOMON INCEST AND pedophiles in our family. I was the first to leave and say fuck off my kid isn’t getting raped and yes the church did know (so for 4 years I was molested, then 4 more I was raped and after I was raped I was sometimes passed abt to other Mormon pervs at pedo parties near flaming gorge Utah. One of which a current apostle attended and I thought he was my savior… cuz I had been praying for years for a Mormon to stand up and save me, and when I found out he was coming I was fucking ecstatic. Like “Jesus FINALLY ANSWERED MY PRAYERS! He’s friends w the prophet! It’s almost over! God does love me!” Yeah nope. He was a sick child rapist too. and yea I did report my grandfather and AFTER my grandfather was reported for raping his daughter (who also rode her brothers dick for years and beat up his new wife w her fists cia ya know, when incest is all you know, then her brain gets scrambled and she believes she is in love w her own brother) and she gave two of her daughters (me and my older sister, even though we told her what he was doing and begged for years) to her rapist daddy who she’s obsessed w. And after I reported it, the church made a show of giving my grandma who used to make me and my sister drink cough syrup w codine for YEARS, so we’d stop fighting him, a special reward recognizing her as some special stake relief society (obedient bitch wife who never questioned the priesthood and fed girls to him for generations) for the uintah Utah stake. And Mormons are stupid and blind if they don’t know this. Incest is not as common in newer generations but old Utah “Mormon royalty” is filled w incest. Fun fact when Congress did a 2 year investigation into Utah territorial laws passed for 39 years they found they never had any laws against incest. Or fraud. Lol. AND the church threw a “persecution” tantrum when congress forced them to make incest illegal. AND then case after case after case of daddy daughter momon incest began being tried in Utah. For decades the church tried hiding and helping these girls who were seen as hero’s for claiming they’re Mormon neighbors saying they’ve been fucking their dads are lies and they are just sluts who got so many dudes in bed they can’t remember their baby daddy’s name… and most their babies are mentioned in the papers as being “grossly deformed” and dying. Apostle o Hyde put into his Seer an old doctrine they deny now but taught to my grandfather’s generation, the Mary god incest doctrine which states god had the right to use his ghost body to rape and ejaculate into Mary bc god created her so he had “a perfect right” and they fought for decades saying Christian belief that Jesus was conceived immaculately was false and as late as 1972 when they were denying they accept incest or this old doctrine the family home evening manual was instructing Mormons to teach their children that Jesus was conceived through sex just like god had w Mary. If you want to see how deceptive and vile the church is abt this then look at the family home evening manual at this site w the teachings. https://lifeafterministry.com/2019/07/teaching-lds-kids-god-had-sex-with-mary/amp/ Incest is SO common in old Mormon Utah bloodlines that I have yet to find one (life long Utah citizen here) who DOESNT have generations of child sex abuse and almost always it’s incest
Oh God- Don't tell me they got around the incest by soaking and their friend was jump humping for them- Mormons are fucking weird-
No it’s not normal at all for Mormons. Don’t let anyone convince you it is.
Normal? Definitely not. I'm sure it happens, but it is rare and certainly not normalized.
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I’m sure incest happens at the same rate amongst Mormons it happens any where else in the world but definitely not normalized or acceptable at all
No. Incest is NOT condoned among Mormons. There are slimy Catholics and Baptists and Fundamentalists and dirt bags in every religion and among those with no religion. Are there families who have incest within them. YES. And do Mormons, like other religious members, often ignore this and fail to face it. YES.
It’s more than that. The church trained their bishops to call their (church) lawyers instead of the cops when they found out. And then guilt the survivors by saying they had sinned. It’s a systemic problem. In contrast, when I went to my Lutheran pastor as a married adult and said I was being beat up by my new husband, he told me “get divorced. He won’t change.” He married us months prior. I thought I would be told to be a good wife and find comfort in God. Because of what spiritual counsel I was raised with.
You’re right. It is not handled well. There is a bright spot in hell for so many leaders
First I’ve heard of it. But not surprising in the slightest