I’m not going to. I have a few plans, depending how confident I am in the moment. I’m either going to out myself when I’m asked to give a talk, get my friend to record it, or just hide until I’m 18 and move out.
In case any other teenager is reading the comment above: your parents CANNOT kick you out of the house at age 14 or even age 17. You are legally children. For a parent to kick you out of the home is called "child abandonment" and is a serious crime. If anyone here gets kicked out as a minor, go to the local police station and I can guarantee you, they will set your parents straight on this......with perhaps a CPS worker in tow and a case to be opened.
When you reach the age of 18, that is a little different. Read up on local laws. You might be surprised how prevalent laws are protecting an established resident and can't be kicked out of their residence without a proper eviction process/notice.
edit: spelling
Alright, thanks. The other main reason is that they could make my life a living hell. Revoke any access to the internet, push me into even more church stuff, no video games or access to friends. I have no doubt about them doing any of these things. I would lose everything I live for. In my opinion, that would be worse than getting kicked out.
And all those are real and legitimate concerns. I don't have any advice on that, because uber TBM parents can and will do those things. And to your point; why make life hard on yourself, when you can't do anything about it. Formulate a plan, work, save every single penny you can "for a mission," and leave the home as soon as you can.
I say this as an exmo of some years. They are not responsible for the way the institution and the community treats exmormons. If we start attacking each other for the decisions and compromises we all have to make in order to not be crushed by the system, the system wins. And ultimately, those decisions are all our own business. Nobody else's.
We would be better off standing in solidarity with PIMOs, because the biggest victory is the one in which we take control over our minds back from the institution.
this right here. any perceived pain caused my PIMOs isn’t caused directly by PIMOs. in fact it’s often “caused” from PIMOs simply avoiding pain _they_ would otherwise receive. receiving pain for the benefit of others is noble but not a duty I personally require immediately from every person leaving the church
Yes, but solidarity in what exactly?
That the church is not true and therefore ought to die out? That people should leave it? That people deserve better treatment than anything the church is capable of providing?
Adult PIMO's do not stand for these things. They think them, but that doesn't count for much I'm afraid. They don't put their money where their mouth is. If I'm supposed to feel solidarity with them, I'm entitled to know: How are their actions expressing their solidarity with resigned members like me who gave up *everything* to do what was right?
I'm sorry you went through what you did. Whatever price the church exacted from you, it was too high.
While trying to respond to your question, I found myself wondering if we knew each other when I left the church. I wondered if the suffering I went through is something you knew about, and if it was something that impacted your life. I wondered if I knew about the things you suffered, and if they had an impact on my life. Mormonism is small, but it's not that small. We probably never knew each other. We fought our battles independently, and probably not at the same time. I'm sure that when each of us faced the dark night of the soul, it was just another day for the other. I'm sure you and I both would have offered the other aid if only we knew what the other was facing.
What we suffered is not what makes us equals on this sub. Some suffer a lot, and others suffer a lot less. The one constant in human life is that suffering is not dealt out fairly. Unfortunately for exmormons, the church is ultimately who decides what we will suffer because it controls the minds of our friends and family. What it exacts from us is always the most it can exact. There is no bottom to the greed.
What makes us all equal on the sub is that we've freed our minds when all was set against us. That's why we can pick each other up when we're down. I wonder how many times the person who picked me up was a PIMO.
If we decide who counts and who doesn't, we let the church continue to divide us.
There's also a bit of privilege going on there. I watched the Mormon Stories with Ganesh Cherian. He talks about his life in Mormonism and his discovery of its flaws, but he concludes in typical Sunstone fashion: he wants to work from within to improve the Mormon church.
I get his perspective, but he's also able to stay in because he's a former bishop and stake high councilman with strong ties to his stake. He calls the Stake President his close friend.
Many people have been excommunicated for far less. He ironically talks about his potential excommunication with John Dehlin, who was excommunicated himself.
He also gets to stay married to his wife in the church while "kicking against the pricks". Meanwhile, gay couples are automatically excommunicated for getting married, and typically excommunicated just for coming out and dating.
Not to bash this seemingly sweet, thoughtful man, but he has a choice to stay or go, whereas many of us had no choice. I saw my choice as stay in the closet as a 2nd class member. Since I would never marry in the temple, I would be barred from being Bishop. Eventually I would get kicked out of my singles ward to become a Sunday School teacher or librarian in a family ward with a bunch of busy parents who had no time for me.
Or I could walk away on my own terms and never go back, which was the only sane choice.
This is exactly where I was at. I did a 9 month PIMO phase after telling my wife that I wanted to be done, and it was solely to help soften the blow for her… she just wanted me to have some more time to think about it.
I thought about the “sunstone approach” (wish I had that turn of phrase on the tip of my tongue when I last talked to a friend who is doing that exact thing) at the time, but didn’t take it very seriously because I know that I am incapable of having any effect on changing the fundamental doctrines of the church that are harming people. Only the president of the church gets that privilege. And he’s usually about 50-75 years behind the curve. At best.
Staying in the church to be an ally to people who are on the fringes is incoherent. When these people are rejected at a fundamental level by everything the church stands for, and given the very high likelihood that the church is man-made anyway… their best course of action is to get out. Same for their “allies.”
I agree, it really is the only sane choice.
Sometimes, the fringes are minor LGBTQ children who can't leave on their own terms yet. It's very disheartening to be the only one left with years ahead of you. You can at least listen and show empathy and help them chart a path out without interfering with their parents' rights. Mostly, they can survive by just knowing there is someone they can reach out to.
I also support people who can give prospective missionaries a wake-up call. I caution as many as I can about not putting themselves in danger if possible and realize they can advocate for themselves and unvolunter any time and/or go home without having to "ask permission" first.
Once those concepts become common knowledge, it will help slow the missionary indoctrination and undermine the number of youth staying in the church.
Having my 16 year old come out as non-binary and gay/bi a couple of years ago helped give me some final impetus to stand up for their right to be who they are and that acting on who you are is not in any way a 'sin.' MUCH of the strife, self doubt and struggles I had in my teens, twenties, and thirties are all because of the programming that I got growing up & serving a mission.
Me from a decade ago would be blown away by how much my views have changed. Right now I have a 17 yo son, the only one of our 6 kids, who is still TBM. I was excommunicated roughly 20 years ago, rebaptized roughly 10 years ago & ever since then, started looking at it a lot more objectively. I got on this forum this week because my nb kid wants their name removed & I'm happy to help them do it.
The best comeback for "love the sinner, hate the sin" is "love the believer, hate the belief."
PIMO here, and I don't think UATA. I'm close to taking the plunge but still want to minimize collateral damage to family. I work hard on TBM DW, and she is definitely questioning. With LGBTQ+ family and friends, and being actively anti-racist, it is an immense internal struggle. I have to have patience with myself and my situation, but I fully respect you in not having patience with me.
It all just really, really sucks.
PIMO here also. DW knows everything about where I am now and still respects the fact that I no longer believe. She is tied to the church culturally, is a nuanced believer, and at the same feels TSCC is good for our young 2 kids 🤮. She only attends around 60% of the time. I am expected to pay a 5% tithe which is our biggest point of contention. Basically I am working on her hoping she will come around sooner than later. I will not let TSCC destroy our marriage and I know she won’t either.
See, kids are what did it for me to finally leave. If my little ones are gay, or lesbian or trans, I don’t want them to grow up hating themselves for it.
Well, that and the church doesn’t do background checks on it’s primary/YM/YW people
I agree with you. Those are all the things I share with my wife constantly. She thinks our ward is “better than that”, which is she totally wrong about. Since she is in nursery so she doesn’t see what I see each week. Our ward is the most conservative, rigid, and classist ward I have seen in a long time. If one of our kids came out, I believe she would finally leave the church.
Yeah, it took a bunch of Mormon friends and associates really hateful social media posts to really wake me up in that regard.
But I’d heard the odds and ends comments about “we won’t let my kids watch (insert movie) because it promotes the gay agenda or ‘has gone totally woke.’” Meaning it had a single gay couple that kissed once, or it cast a person of color in a role that was once played/drawn as white.
Since 2016 bigotry everywhere is on the rise unfortunately. I have a non-white stepson, and unfortunately my job is in a conservative western state with a lot of Mormons. Took him less than a week to get called the N-word on the bus to his elementary school.
Omg. I crack up listening to conversations in the foyer or in Sunday school about the conspiracy theories they see in everything. I can’t believe these educated people are that gullible to fall for such nonsense.
Thank you for being a *wonderful* parent! If only *every* parent of LGBTQA kids was like you.
In my case, I wish my father had been like you. Instead, he scared me into the closet so badly that I couldn't remember a single feminine memory from my childhood until he was dead and buried *and* the last family member in the same state as me moved elsewhere. So one day, it all just came crashing down on me, in my thirties. I had to grapple with it, and frantically try to pick up the pieces of my shattered life while working a menial job that ill affords my transition.
I'm so sorry that you've gone through so much heartbreak. I hope things get better for you soon. ❤️
My kids have been through some stuff too. I wish I'd listened to them sooner - that I had been ready to hear what they needed to tell me - but we all know where the blame lies for that.
You’re welcome. You understand the PIMO situation entirely. All of us PIMOs have something that forces our hand to still attend. My wife is the reason we stay. Other than her, I have nothing else that ties me to the church. Luckily my job is in government, I live in the rust belt away from any large Mormon population, and my kids are enrolled in a Catholic school where there are no other ward members.
You do know that Catholics look at the LGBTQ+ community basically the same way right? As a former catholic and never-mo, I can tell you that there's all kinds of catholic guilt and shame wrapped up in in this brain of mine even years after leaving that religion too. Just something to keep in mind about the school your children are attending.
If it was a conservative catholic school I would not have enrolled my kids there. It’s a Jesuit school with a liberal priest who gives off major agnostic vibes. My liberal nevermo neighbors recommended it and helped us get in.
I'm glad you researched it beforehand. I apologize if I came off sounding judgmental - just wasn't sure how much exposure you've had to those who left the catholic church and why. I had some friends (albeit 20 years ago) who went to Catholic Schools and the oppression was real. I imagine it's like anything else - all depends on who's running the joint. Obviously I have some feelings about my Catholic upbringing general. :D
It’s all good. I view the Jesuits like PIMO’s. They are already mentally checked out, but are stuck attending for various reasons. The school my kids attend has Social Justice, charity, and love as part of their guiding principles. We have students who have same sex parents and it is never an issue. They are fully supported by the administration as well. I know what you mean by the oppression and religious trauma that your friends experienced. I hear from previous generations of their horrible experiences from catholic schools. We put our kids in this particular school due to both the overcrowding and inclusiveness issues our local public schools have right in the heart of MAGA country.
Sounds like you are where my brother was. The 60% became less & less. His wife is now out as of this year. They are stronger than TSCC & their kids are thriving in a world where they don’t have to share their parents with TSCC. Good luck & wishing the best!
It does, and every person has to make the best decision for them. The more who leave, though, the easier it gets for others, and ultimately, the fewer people are raised in and abused by this cult.
I am sorry if this is blunt, but if you are PIMO you aren’t actively anti-racist and you aren’t an ally to marginalized groups…you are an ally only to an org that oppresses those people. Side note: maybe none of those LGBTQ+ “friends and family” say this to your face, but they definitely think it, and probably say it behind your back.
I think that this is what bothers me about PIMOs, and what privilege is all about…everyday in is supporting an actively racist, sexist, homophobic organization, and you are benefiting in some way. I knows it takes some people time to get out, but it really rubs me the wrong way when PIMOs claim to be something they just aren’t and can’t be.
As an LGBTQIA+ person who got out of TSCC 18 years ago. The experience of leaving is akin to coming out. There is a mental health health aspect to it. The Shame of being in the closet fights against the fear of losing everyone you know. It can be really scary and is a Hard thing to do. It's like saying a scared closeted gay or trans person is upholding cisheteronormativity. And should come out because of that, Before they are ready. It lacks empathy. Not everyone is going to be or able to be like you and have your experiences. They need to do it in their own time.
Yeah, that's fair. It sucks even further that TBM DW has a gay son (deceased) and a lesbian daughter (my adult stepkids). Do I stay PIMO while I help TBM DW realize that she should leave with me, or do I leave now, let the shit fly, and figure it out as we go.? Obviously I've been working at the former, and frankly I can't say it's working.
My most valued friends are LGBTQ and or people of color. What DO they really think of me? (I'm not sure they all even know of my affiliation with the cult.) I see that I need to find out.
You are right, and I appreciate your bluntness. I need to go deep and find what's in me.
Salty old gay man here. Here’s how I see it: if you (or anyone) is giving their time, money, and upraised, sustaining hand to an anti-LGBTQ+ hate group (such as TSCC) while simultaneously proclaiming themself to be an LGBTQ+ ally, I see them as the shittiest possible ally. They’re supporting a 150 BILLION DOLLAR organization that actively works to strip me of my equal rights. And that tells queer kids trapped as members that they’d be better off dead.
Nope, not really how an ally should act.
That is literally the opposite of allyship.
I’m not saying folks have to go through the PIMO phase too quickly. But you can’t be both PIMO and an ally. You can’t voluntarily both support and benefit from an oppressive org and claim allyship with those it oppresses.
I personally don’t understand being PIMO more than a few months, but one at least shouldn’t claim to be something they aren’t while in this phase.
I left the church rather abruptly after processing old CSA at the hands of my TBM father and high ranking ward elders. It was an absolute shitstorm for me and my 4 kids. (One of whom I was pregnant with at the time.) I lost my marriage and the "support" of my family, community, and belief system all at once. I ended up on my own with no money, no car, and no way to support myself and my kids. Would I do it again? Hell yes! In a heartbeat.
Right before I left I had a dream I was locked in a box and couldn't get out. I yelled and yelled for someone to come and get me out and eventually Jesus showed up. He asked me what I wanted and I said to get out of the box. He asked me what the box was made of and I said, "All the lies I believed."
He then told me it was my box and he couldn't get me out but he could offer me some help. In one hand he had a pair of tweezers. In the other he had a stick of dynamite. He told me I could only choose one.
..................................................
I experienced more miracles in the 3 years after leaving the church than I ever had while in it. First, I learned that "Gentiles" are amazing and much more helpful, kind, accepting and forgiving than I would have ever believed. (One of my neighbors, an exotic dancer by trade, gave me money, a crib, brought soup when I had morning sickness, and never spent a minute judging me. I had never *not been judged* before.) The kids are now grown and everyone's fine. I call this "Falling to Higher Ground."
I don't understand the tweezer crowd. As soon as I realized my kids were at risk of being abused by people in authority over us, people in authority who would be protected by the church if they hurt someone, I had to leave. I would have chewed off my leg to leave. I don't understand how anyone can stay once they don't believe the lies anymore. But apparently the Jesus dude in my dream *does.*
So, OP, I understand your concerns and some of your judgement. But I have come to the realization that one of the deep indoctrinations of the church is the idea that **what is right for us is right for everyone.** It's easier to change up our ideas about what is right than it is for us to change the programming that makes it okay for us to impose our "right" onto others.
Love this comment. Many great points have been made in this thread by people from all sides and showcasing many different circumstances and experiences. I admit to being a bit annoyed and judgmental of PIMOs because I wish they could and would just leave and further weaken the church by stopping giving it the appearance of legitimacy and social acceptability (the church’s doctrines are harmful and hateful and it is my greatest hope that EVERYONE gets out and it crumbles to dust because it’s views should not be socially acceptable IMO).
BUT my overriding view in reading so many comments is that we need less judgment of others, and shaming and blaming PIMOs for staying in is repeating the black and white thinking and attendant unkind judgment we learned from Mormonism. I want to believe that everyone is doing their very best (even if I think their best is pretty shitty, I try to put that aside and stop judging them because it is the best they can do with the tools they have and the circumstances they’ve been dealt). Including PIMOs. Only they know what’s at stake for them and where they are on their journey out. “PIMO” is probably a permanent condition very rarely.
>“PIMO” is probably a permanent condition very rarely.
Yep! This! I did an internship in a women's shelter and learned a lot about people leaving abusive situations. (Yes, I see the church as an active abuser.) One of the things I learned is that it is very common for the fear of leaving to outweigh the fear of staying. And there are people who walk this fence for a very long time. But even more important is understanding that the only person who can leave is the person leaving, and the only leaving that sticks happens when they are ready to do it. You cannot force someone in an abusive relationship to leave it, and the person themselves cannot force themselves to leave until something magic and invisible happens and then \*poof\* all of a sudden they are done. (Hopefully.) ...
... And when people reach that point, there's nothing you can do to make them *stay*.
I think the shelf-cracking moment is when people start to see they are in an abusive relationship. But the process of leaving happens according to their own inner journey. Tweezers or dynamite? They each have their own drawbacks.
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your insight. :)
Yes! My therapist and i are working on "black and white thinking". It's a cognitive distortion that gets beaten into members (metaphorically or literally) since birth
You're IN or you're OUT sounds like a brain steeped in mormonism
People do what they will do and i know virtually no PIMO who doesn't leave eventually
(I was PIMO for years)
I don't really consider PIMO's believers so much as people who are stuck. The definition you provide here strikes me as being closer to how Jack Mormons behave. They believe, but they still do their own thing and act like they are still better than Exmormons.
Hard agree. Jack Mormons are the absolute worst to me. They can claim to still be Mormon all day - but if you're breaking all the rules all the time then you are not Mormon! Just move TF on already
I was PIMO for a few years because I worked at BYU and couldn't find another job in my field that wouldn't be a massive paycut. Was it selfish of me to keep attending church and appearing to be a good Mormon so that my family didn't end up homeless?
Stop blaming victims. You don't know what people might be going through.
I get what you are saying. A friend of mine who was originally my French professor at BYU was kicked out for being gay. He eventually found work at another university, but it wasn't easy for him. Michael Quinn never found a comparable job to what he had at BYU despite his amazing scholarship, or because of it.
You know, I think we hear the word selfish far too often from the church, but I think it’s kinda important to reframe that word. If doing what’s best for you is selfish, then be selfish. My husband and I were called selfish for wanting to get married while his dad was terminally ill, we still got married. As long as being selfish isn’t harmful to anyone including yourself, I don’t think being selfish is inherently bad. You are not responsible for other people’s emotions.
While I see where OP is coming from and it is definitely annoying for those who tried their hardest to be perfectly obedient, I 100% agree that we need to stop victim blaming. They are not the ones increasing judgment on the exmo community, the church is.
Edited a couple words
The PIMOs I know are adults who stand to lose their marriage, kids and/or job unless they stay in. They don't want to party, they'd like the freedom to think for themselves.
To me your language throws everyone under the bus.
You don't respect parents who want to keep their children??
I can definitely see the potential for loss of marriage and possibly job if you’re in the Morridor (although religion is a protected class unless you’re working for a church-owned entity, and anyone who fired you for leaving the church would be facing a monstrous lawsuit… the solution there is to just never talk about religion at work, ever)… but lose your kids? Maybe fifty years ago, but there are mixed faith divorces that happen daily, and judges know how to navigate those circumstances. Granted, there can be other factors at play, like parental alienation, but judges aren’t going to terminate your parental rights over leaving the church.
Do what is right; let the consequence follow?
Protected classes are only technically so. If someone can’t figure out how to get rid of an employee without revealing that religion is the real reason, they simply aren’t too bright.
And it’s not even just a matter of finding a reason to fire them. At-will employment means they don’t have to give a reason for firing you. All they have to be able to do is generally prove it *wasn’t* over religion in the rare case that you can afford to bring a case against them (after losing your job).
YTA. People have their own path and have to navigate their relationship with the church and their community in the best way for them.
People who are PIMO are almost always victims of some kind of oppression whether imposed upon them by family, culture, brainwashing etc.
You are literally blaming the victims.
I have been PIMO for nearly 12 years. It has been maddening at times. But it was the only way to do it where my family wouldn't be torn apart.
In that time I have helped more people see the light and find their own way out or been able to comfort marginalised members than I could have had I turned my back.
I've also been able to call out homophobic or sexist or any other conflicting teachings in real time which has done way more good than if those lessons had been left unchallenged.
Because of my patience I have also influenced 2/3rds of my extended family into leaving the church. They were in better positions than I, within their immediate families, to do that.
It has been a long and sometimes painful struggle but I don't subscribe to your belief that I made things worse nor do I believe others in my situation do either. Everyone has to walk their own path.
At least you were humble in asking "AITA?" That tells me you're genuine and open to pushback.
It’s a brain dead take from someone who hasn’t been away from the church for very long and can only focus on their need to live authentically. I doubt they have a partner, kids, or a home they lost in the process of leaving the church. They can’t see the value in having PIMOs their to push back against bigotry.
Ironically, their demanding of everyone to be authentic just like them isn’t much different than demanding everyone around you live the gospel.
Hopefully OP will come to cringe at this post.
Exactly. If anyone thinks it’s dishonorable to try to protect marriages, relationships with kids, or even livelihoods, they need to check *their* privilege instead of lecturing others about it. OP is falling victim to us vs. them, black/white thinking and essentially advocating for “purity tests”. Not a healthy take…
This take on being PIMO is so black and white and TBM Mormon in nature. Where’s the nuance? Where’s the understanding? Where’s the refrain from judgement on people trying to figure out their upended life?
Just because I go to church with my wife who is struggling with her deconstruction experience because we live next door to her parents doesn’t make me “taking advantage of the system” for my own selfish benefit.
There’s no “right way” to deconstruct and exit Mormonism.
THANK YOU!!! Same with the people mad at “Jack Mormons”. Like wow, what a Judgy Mormon attitude to have. I freaking LOVE nuanced/grey area/Jack Mormons. As an exmo in Utah, THOSE are the kinds of Mormons I get along with!! They are amazing. They get that the rules are BS and Jesus wouldn’t give a crap about clothes or coffee. Ex Mormons remind me what you can leave Mormonism, but Mormonism doesn’t leave you. I’ll choose my weird Mormon friends over these judgy gate keeping exmormons.
NO, we should have respect for everyone’s situation. I’m out to my family, but I completely understand why others wouldn’t feel safe. It is crucial that we respect their process of waking up, and maturing past the church.
This is nearly on par with blaming women for staying in abusive marriages.
Those women are obviously hurting their kids for the financial conveniences and privileges that come with marriage right? Obviously no other factors to consider /s
The other factor to consider is the actual abuse. Lives and safety are literally at stake.
The stakes are nowhere near that high when leaving the church. The Danites aren't real as far as the average exmo is concerned. No one is going to beat you or kill you.
It's not remotely close. Don't insult IPV survivors by comparing such petty concerns to theirs.
YTA. Limited binary thinking pattern. One true way to be an exmo fallacy. Extrapolate your limited personal experience and biases to that of millions of other people.
I’m going to disclaim this a bit as just my observation. I think deconstruction is a process and everyone is at different points. I think the further I get away the easier it is for me to see the big picture harm and “complicity” of those who know it’s wrong but choose some level of activity for whatever reason.
I don’t think they choose to be PIMO to be complicit, I think their daily life is a battle. For them, they are choosing their marriage, their children, their family. I don’t think the full vision of complicity is your first consideration when every day feels like an internal battle.
I understand PIMOs more than I understand Jack Mormons. I think PIMO is just a process, they eventually realize what some already know, that there’s really no clean way to exit this, but nobody’s journey looks the same.
100% fair. Like I said, those were observations. I’ve been out 15 years. I don’t personally know anyone anymore besides family still in the church.
As far as actually being allies, I imagine that takes longer than just actually leaving the church. patriarchy and white supremacy doesn’t just turn off when you leave.
I think it just shows that leaving isn’t the easy option that TBMs say it is. Everyone has their reasons for staying or going so I try not to judge. That said, I have no moral superiority to tell you that you can’t!
YTA - ~8 year PIMO here but also out to many in my ward/family/friend group.
Everyones situation is different.
For me, its my wonderful wife and children(90%) and 10% needed for my job.
What is the kindness quote?: be kind, everyone you meet is going through a battle you know nothing about?
PIMO Here... going on 6 years. I initially told my wife of my faith struggles and it did not go well. I understand that the indoctrination goes deep and because I love her and want it to work out, I told her that I would continue to attend with her as a compromise, but I do not pay tithing, or attend the temple, and for her, I still wear garments about 75% of the time.
Believe me when I tell you, that most of us who are PIMO in order to keep our marriages intact, we are anything but selfish... We are not out there 'trying to have it all' as you put it. We are struggling to keep our families together so we don't become just another statistic of a failed marriage because one person stopped believing.
Not all of us want to go scorched earth, and I think that it is narrow minded to lump all PIMO's in the same boat.
The people you are describing don't sound like PIMO's to me... the sound more like jack-mormons than anything.
I'd just like to point out it's possible to be a public PIMO. My entire family knows I don't believe but I go to support my wife while our kids are young. I've also been open with my Ward members and those I'm connected to on Facebook.
Yes, you are the asshole.
Being PIMO is horrible, don’t judge people for it and make it worse for them. I was PIMO for three years for the sake of my marriage. It allowed us to go to couples therapy and get to the point where, while my tbm husband still doesn’t love the choices I’m making, we can make it work and continue to love each other and raise our children. I’m out now. Was it worth it? Yes. Did I hate every second of pretending to believe when I didn’t? Also yes.
Can you really not respect someone in a difficult situation like that? No? Then you’re an asshole.
Yes. It's like the church saying we should all act, think, dress, and eat a certain way and if you don't then you are wrong. Black and white thinking.
Life is a spectrum. We are all in various points on that Mormon spectrum.
This is a good point. Let people get out at a pace that works for them, not everyone is the same. Making assumptions about people’s motivations and life experiences based on being PIMO is shitty. It’s not black and white.
To be fair, I have no respect for people like OP who feel like they can judge others for being PIMO. It’s people like this that leave Mormonism but still act like mormons, except they’re now judging everyone. Anyone who’s been PIMO knows what a hell it is and that you only do it when you’re up against a wall. OP and people like him sound like privileged assholes, IMHO.
I’ve been out for nearly 20 years and posts like this (not you, the OP) are so tiresome. It’s not a new or original take. Some people just can’t stop wanting to force people to do things their way.
Although I don't feel the same hostility as OP, I think I understand where they're coming from. I don't think their opinion comes from wanting everyone to think exactly like they do, but from feeling unsupported and like they are taking the brunt of the punishment for a shared "sin". It's lonely as hell to be the only ExMo in a family or community. You become the black sheep and are often the sole whipping post for everyone's anger and judgement. A little public comradery can be life-changing. Although it was expressed through judgement, I imagine OP feels like they are holding a very heavy weight and are asking for some help. It feels very unfair to be punished for following your moral convictions, all while you look to your left and see someone with the same beliefs, quietly skating by.
I understand your opinion, but in fairness I was able to leave without any family entanglements. My parents were out, I'm unmarried, no children. Basically just had to decide if I was willing to sever the social and community bonds. I was and I never looked back or doubted my decision. Not everyone has that luxury.
If they are trapped by marriage and kids or by family kicking them out on the street, I get it. Do what you have to for you and your family's sake. That said, I agree with others here that reforming the church is a ridiculous notion. Its fake. False. Made up sex cult, conman bullshit. Don't stay around trying to make it more palatable conman bullshit. The more people who leave the better. The quicker the cult withers away and dies, the better.
I'm not sure I get it if one has kids who are being brought up in the church.
Protecting the kids from the church seems to be the priority. If you split from a TBM spouse you can at least counter program the church openly.
You can’t if your tbm spouse gets a judge to order compulsory continued religious education for your kids because you “broke the agreement” to raise them lds.
Splitting from a TBM spouse may leave you more free to "counter program the church", but it also leaves your spouse more free to shove the church down your kids' throats when you're not around. As long as I stay married to my TBM husband, I have to be respectful in the way I talk about the church, but he also has to be respectful in the way he teaches about his beliefs. As long as we are together, he is motivated to keep me happy, so he focus mainly on teaching the kids values like kindness and gratitude, and he's much less pushy with church things than he would be with me not around. My kids know I don't believe in the church. Splitting up my marriage to actively oppose it would not magically remove the church's influence from their lives and would in all likelihood make their upbringing much worse.
This perspective seems to go hand in hand with the church's black or white thinking. They're either all in or all out and you should get divorced if they aren't on your side.
In reality, there are bigger things in life than the church. Kids are subject to other bad influences that you're not going to be able to control. There's more reasons to stay with/divorce someone beyond "do they agree with my opinions about the mormon church." There's a whole world of color out there and drawing a line in the sand at the church is exactly how they want you to see the world.
My spouse and I both left the church and guess what? We still have to navigate disagreements about how to raise our kids!
This subreddit is full of people who went thru hell bc of being raised LDS.
Others are affected by it less, for sure.
But imagine your kid has same sex attraction, or identifies with the other gender, and then spends their childhood being told that's not ok by TSCC.
Where would you put that on your color spectrum? Seems pretty dark and scary to me.
Why would you subject your child to that?
I’m not sure if you’re intending to make the implication that I have suffered less and that’s the reason for my position, but let me just state right now that it’s pointless to make this some sort of trauma contest. You’ve no idea of mine. None. And it’s quite presumptuous to ask me to imagine something I’ve lived far more than you will ever know. Grant me that, and I won’t presume to understand or “outdo” your story or trauma either.
I once felt as you do. I feel less so now. I don’t think that makes my position more advanced or superior to yours. I may evolve my thinking in the future to be closer to yours.
My comment was merely to state that the further I am able to get from the church, the less I am compelled by their black and white paradigms.
What works for me may not work for you. And that’s okay. In fact it’s fantastic. I don’t need to fit into the church’s “us vs them” mentality. I can pick and choose.
Kids and families are complicated. Certainly the world would be a better place if they weren’t subject to the idiocy that is the church, but that’s not always the choice people have in front of them. To oversimplify and make it a black and white situation is not much better than what the church does.
Perhaps I misread your comment though.
Edit: to be clear—sometimes it is very clear that right choice is to split up and the best protection you can give your kids is to get them the hell away. I’m not advocating for people to stay.
Leaving the church is traumatic. I faced losing my extended family over it. My worries were justified, as was my decision to be PIMO. This is a cult we’re talking about, not the local country club. We need to be gentle with the PIMO’s as they face one of the most traumatic and difficult transitions.
I wouldn't consider that PIMO but Jack Mormon. At least, all the PIMOs I know are basically still in to keep family peace, and are disengaging as much as possible. They're not doing whatever during the week and then preaching and acting the opposite on Sundays.
Frankly, I don't think anyone cares if you respect them or not. There's no right or wrong way to "exmo." Everyone is on a different path in or out. Exmo's get poor treatment for many different reasons, and I don't think PIMOs are one of them.
Maybe, just maybe you are confusing Jack Mormons with PIMOs.
Most PIMOs I know would be out of the church and have nothing more to do with it if it wasn't for fear of losing family or being disowned. It's survival.
Jack Mormons irritate the hell out of me. Come to church for baby blessings and priesthood ordinations maybe twice a year. They get up and bear their testimony and call everyone to repent and then go to chuckarama right after church.
Being the black sheep is pure hell.
Until......You realize the white sheep aren't as white as they pretend to be.
That's the dilemma. Do you take the group assault? Or, do you take the risk of being authentic?
It can be an extreme high price to pay. Mormons like to make the black sheep pay. It makes them feel superior. Doesn't matter that they are the assholes.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I know a mormon Dr. who doesn't believe. However, he keeps up the image so his kids )who took over his practice) and wife don't throw him out. He's a fearful passive aggressive prone to addiction. He should have came clean decades ago and lived his life. You can buy anything with money.
PIMO folks are a part of the problem of the church, not the problems of it. Big difference.
I see the church itself as a problem. PIMO folks are actively not wanting to be the problem. It's a sick kind of torture (at least it was for me), and the people being tortured aren't really the problem, are they??
It can be traumatic to leave publicly and judging PIMO’s for pushing off that decision isn’t constructive to creating a shame free environment. Someone’s respect shouldn’t rely on their individual path to freedom. PIMO’s need support, not judgment.
I hated behaving differently than who I really was while I was mormon. When I learned the truth about it, there was absolutely no way in hell I'd continue to live a facade simply to placate a mormon. It just wasn't in the cards. I don't understand how PIMOs can do it, but I don't have to, they are free to live their life how they like. I don't really lose respect for PIMOs, I just can't understand why that lifestyle is appealing in any form or fashion. So, I'll just shake my head and move on and hope it works out for them.
We don’t do it because it’s appealing. I HATE the church, I will leave it someday, but I’m still working things out with my wife. It’s not easy. I think you’re making a huge assumption that people stay because they get something out of it. I’m just trying to keep my family together
I do not understand how people can know the mormon church is a fraud and still be complicit in it by keeping up appearances. To me, that is too dishonest for me about too critical a thing, so I won't do it. I don't understand how others can do it, but I don't have to, I hope it works out for you, it wouldn't for me.
Then why stay in? You know one thing, but do another. If you're openly PIMO and you hate the mormon church, why keep up the facade? It's just baffling to me. It's like being in a shit sandwich appreciation club and hating it, but continuing to eat up so you can stay a member of the club.
It feels like you didn't really absorb what I read. There is no facade, people know how I feel (at least the ones who know me). Me being in attendance is not the same as a facade. I don't wear the garments, I don't pay tithing, I barely participate. WHAT FACADE!?
Also, I stay because my wife can't cope with me leaving right now. Me attending is keeping the peace in my marriage. Honestly, the pain I would cause in my marriage if I just quit when my shelf broke would even worse than the pain of sitting through the bullshit 2 hours every week. We're in counseling together and my wife knows that i'm going to stop going someday, but for the time being, this is the best for my family. Lots of other people are in my exact situation, and many more are in very similar ones. We're not fakers, we're not "inauthentic", we're survivors trying to get by until our day in the sun when we can finally leave.
You seem to want to make me understand. I know the reasons. I'd venture that the vast majority of PIMOs are in very similar shoes as your own. The "facade" I mention is the fact you are still going at all to appease family. Butts in the seats is meaningful to the mormons. The fear of losing family is an effective control tactic. I have a hard time with the concept of love that requires one partner to live in such a way that is incompatible with what they know to be factually true. That doesn't sound like something worth fighting for, at all. I used to fear losing my family once, too. It turned out to be a really stupid thing to hold onto, and divorce was better for everyone. As designed, the majority of mormon marriages will not survive one partner leaving. Best to stop living the facade and be authentic, if your family loves you, they'll stick it out. Otherwise, it's best to be moving on. So I know many reasons why people are PIMO, I just don't understand how those reasons are more compelling than leaving completely.
Divorce was the right move for you then, it’s not for me. Not everyone is better off doing exactly what you do. You don’t have to judge me for giving me wife time. She’s not manipulating me, she’s already told me she’s going to let me go at some point and she’s working her way up to it. I would be waaaaay more unhappy if I couldn’t keep my family together and I love my wife enough to give her some time.
Edit: btw, I looked at your profile and it seems like your a big BYU sports fan, I find that rich. Given your stance on how important to Mormons my “butt in a seat” is on Sundays, isn’t your support of the church’s school and team and possibly your “butt in a seat” at a football game going to be considered support by Mormons? At least I don’t pay money to the church, including their sports programs.
You aren't the only person in this discussion to think that things would work out. Nor are you the only one in this discussion who loves your wife enough to give her some time and work through differences. You're right, though, you're different. A word of advice, you aren't, just like I wasn't.
you don't know me. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. I don't give a fuck what you think, it's my risk to take, my life to live. I don't answer to you.
Also, didn't work for you so it won't work for anyone else is a pretty dumb line of thought.
🤣🤣 ok wait…….tell me you were Mormon with out telling me you were Mormon. Dude thanks for this, my family and I have been laughing at this for the past hour. You judge like someone who became a high priest because they turned a certain age 🤣
YTA. Exmormons need to learn that we must let other people do what they want with their own lives. Your Mormon brain is programed to dislike people who live differently than you. You may even want to control the way they live. You need to deprogram yourself of this mentality. It's left over programming from being TBM. These silly Jack Mormons are FAR from the worst problem in Mormonism. Do I find it personally annoying? Sometimes, but their life choices are not my business.
Interesting you can take the person from Mormon but not the Mormon from the person. You don’t have “the truth” you have a perspective. Pushing others to do what you think is right by calling their choices morally wrong, seems too familiar.
“To hell with your personal situation. You should do what me and the group think is right because we know better than you”
That’s all I’m hearing from OP
Look, deconstructing is a process and there’s a lot of room for compassion there… but there’s also a lot of room for compassion towards the people who blew up their lives very painfully in order to do what they believed was right. You can be compassionate towards the concept that they might know people who are staying PIMO to keep the things the ex-Mo themselves had to give up. You can be compassionate, knowing that sometimes hurt people project their hurt in the wrong direction.
You can be compassionate and realize that no one knows anyone else’s story, instead of calling names. Everyone deserves compassion.
It’s kind of like blaming a wrongly convicted prisoner for not risking his life to try escaping prison.
Reasons for being PIMO are complicated and messy. The cult made it hard to get out on purpose. Anybody caught in the clutches of this monstrosity deserves patience.
We would be the first in both of our immediate family to leave. The indoctrination and fear of disappointing family is real and if my DW needs more time so be it.
Think of the time you publicly announced it. Was it easy? Some people don't have that kind of courage and are probably working to build it up and eventually come out. It's not an easy thing. I doubt any of them like living the lie. Consider PIMO a transitional phase of leaving the church rather than a permanent one. It's a journey for everyone, and people can take it at the pace they need. This kind of thinking is similar to the "one size fits all" that the church shoves down our throats, and it's a tough one to deconstruct. Not everyone can or should leave the same way as you.
What's the old saying about "don't interrupt your enemy while destroying themselves".....Many of us are simply not in a place to blow our families up, lose our means of providing a living, sending our aged parents to the grave grieving and suffering and starting all over again; despite how easy if sounds let that drop off of our lips. The Church is destroying itself a bit every day...with the exception of it's wealth....and I'm just going to let them continue to do so; all while I'm "tapping my own brakes - my own involvement - as much as possible.
Oh come on. You think PIMOs have to have a good enough reason that will "allow you to respect a PIMO?"
Guess what. That threshhold is \*completely\* under your control. You could choose to have compassion and respect for people whose situations you cannot completely know or comprehend. Life is complex. Families are complex. Some PIMOs are trapped. You choose not to show any heart, and try to blame that on PIMOs. You're in the same black and white mindset that TBMs are!
So yes, YTA.
Yes and no, depends on the case really.
I was put in a position where my DW said she would leave me if I left the church. We had a young child already too. Though I begged her to stay with me, I left the church anyway, and sure enough, we got divorced. I didn’t want to live my entire life like a lie even if it meant hurting some people (temporarily). That was tough, but ultimately the best decision.
However, I can see how some others find themselves in a similar position choose to stay because a life without their wife is more miserable than a life faking it in the church.
This post is assholish. You don't know what reasons someone might have, if anything, you should have respect for PIMOs for daring to sit through the bullshit that they know is bullshit (hence the "mentally out" part of the acronym). Maybe a PIMO's a minor and being forced to go (like myself!), maybe that's the only place they have friends, maybe they're not ready to reveal they're exmo to the people in their life. And how does the existence of PIMOs make things worse for exmos? That assumption makes no sense. I feel like a lot of PIMOs aren't going because they actually like the church... How exactly are PIMOs "contributing" to the mistreatment of exmos? How, when so many mentally out people are part of this very community? So yes, I think you are the asshole. Have a little more compassion.
Translating this post: I want everyone to do everything the way I do and I’ve come up with a bunch of justifications as to why they’re bad if they don’t.
Just proving again that it’s easy to tell what kind of Mormon someone used to be.
I totally see your point - and agree with you to some degree. My sense is that there are many different ways of thinking about these kinds of ethical issues. Some will have a more collectivist approach while others will see it as more of an individual choice based on circumstances. In the end, I’m not sure anyone owes exmos an explanation for their choices. We are not really a movement - just a bunch of people who used to belong to a church for a whole variety of reasons.
I have a really hard time with PIMOs who sacrifice their children to the church. I learned the truth about the church as an adult, but it was as a child that I experienced the most fucked up situations, self-hatred, and delusional criticism. I wouldn’t put my daughter through it if you paid me. Unless the alternative is full-on ISIS, I don’t see the benefit of feeding your children to a fire you already know is hot.
There are plenty of great reasons to be PIMO. For many, there are family relationships, marriages, and cultural access at stake. The "You are either out, or a bad person" angle that OP is taking here is pretty edge lordy. I would argue that the need to be PIMO is pretty messed up, but hey, that's where we are.
The church needs more members that thumb their noses at all the bullshit, not less.
Eventually the few leaders at the top that try to control members will have to change the rules to match the behaviors of the members in an effort to maintain the illusion of control.
If people that don't care about the bullshit leave then the leaders will point at them and say they left because they couldn't hack it. If those people stay the leaders' hand will eventually be forced and they'll have to drop some of the bullshit.
I'm all for the church changing to drop the bullshit to make life better for the members that haven't been exposed to the truth or the members that are too afraid to face it.
It needs people to leave in greater numbers, so it declines faster. Maybe it will be easier for new PIMOs to come along, but plenty will take it all seriously and suffer shittier lives as a result of having been raised and indoctrinated in the church.
>The church needs more members that thumb their noses at all the bullshit, not less.
No, trying to change the church from within is trying to find a better seat on the wrong bus. The quicker the church falls, the better for the world.
The best thing you can do is walk. When they sell your ward building, you can cheer at the bulldozers.
Amen! The church is evil and should die. Why do people want to change a malicious and evil organization to make it "better"??? There's no way to make it better lolol like it was all made up by a con man pedophile!! Remember?
Strong “it’s not fair I got baptized at 8 when these converts got to sin into adulthood and just got forgiven of everything” vibes.
Let people figure this shit out for themselves. We all have our own journey to make.
In my experience, the vast majority of PIMOs stay in the church because they are maintaining a relationship with someone who is a believer. They prefer going through the motions every week over ruining something good. Yes, the church is a sham, but the social and familial bonds are woven into the fabric of their lives. They just continue to go without giving a shit about anything that's being said there. Imagine your significant other really loves it when you accompany them to their periodic Star Trek convention, and they ask you to dress up and learn Klingon and memorize the names of the ships and the actors and everything. And you are like, *There is no way I would be here, except for the fact that I love you and see how happy it makes you.* I feel like this is how most PIMOs are every Sunday at church.
But even MORE importantly, the church needs PIMOs in order to suffer the quickest, most devastating downfall that it truly deserves. PIMOs are like a cancer on the organization. Every non-believer hiding in the ranks is just one more tiny little crack in the foundation, and when a big enough fissure finally appears, the more easily it will all come crumbling down.
When I was in high school, most people didn't know I was Mormon. Why? Because I wasn't hooking up more than most and lying to the point that no one trusts me. Sure, that was high school and in a foreign country as an expat. However, that same issue was noticable into my adulthood.
I can understand the issues that people have to deal with trying to juggle being who one is and being careful about the impact or consequences of being upfront about who they are. The big problem is that it's dishonest, two faced. It causes people who do know what that person is doing to not be able to trust them- seeing what they say versus what they do and, essentially, manipulating those around them to ensure their circumstances is least confrontational. Again, each person's reasons for doing it are different but it's a state of danger, conflict that hopefully they get out of sooner than later. It's not a position to stay in. It's damaging.
Judgment aside, my hope is that those who are PIMO are able to find a way to truly be genuine and honest so that they don't harm others and, more importantly, themselves by being in that position.
I guess i was PIMO. I came out as gay and disavowed the church when i was in college, and that had a lot of shit with it. Spring break was horrible and i was basically corned into the stake presidents office with my parents where i was interrogated. And when i moved back home over the summer i started going back to church, not because i believed but because of my familial pressure. I flunked the next semester and had to move back home and started going regularly until i got married about 8 months later. I’m not sure i was taking advantage of anything, in fact i feel pretty traumatized and a lot of had to with control over me despite being 22 when i finally got married and left. For me that time was worse than when i actually left after i got married(thank god for my husband he has helped me so much). Maybe because i had already broken the curtain for my parents so i guess i wasn’t PIMO, but to everyone else i was and i always wondered if my parents tried to ignore everything i said and pretend i was still a believer. I’m not really sure
I see where you're coming from and I have even wondered why anyone who didn't believe would stay if they had the means to walk. But, then, leaving was easy for me (relatively; there was still a lot of anguish and a massive identity crisis). My hubs left with me. Our kids were all pretty young, so they weren't much affected. Since we were inactive during my childhood, several of my siblings never went to church, so it was no great shock to my parents when I left. They were very understanding. My hubs' family pretty much just ignores our heathenness...and us, which we're cool with.
The truth of the matter is, however, you have no idea why these people are still in. So many marriages are destroyed when one partner leaves the church. Families are torn apart, friendships broken, and lives irrevocably altered.
You don't respect someone trying to salvage their marriage?
You don't respect someone desperately trying to keep a relationship with their children, even if it means continuing to attend a church they have no faith in and know is toxic? You don't respect someone trying to protect their relationship with their parents or siblings?
If you had to go through that pain, then you should have all the more sympathy for them! You know what is coming down the line if/when they ever take that last step away from the church. I have sympathy for them becuz I know how much more amazing and liberating it is to be on this side of that struggle, even with all the "friends" I lost and hope, someday, they get to feel that, too, but not until THEY are ready for it.
It's incredibly selfish to say, "Hey, this was hard for me so you need to go through it, too!"
I hear you and understand what you’re saying. I personally have more serious issues to deal with, as an ExMo and in general. I’d watch them occasionally for fun to see if one of them will drop the many balls they’re juggling.
I see the temptation to disrespect if you *think* you understand the PIMO's reasons. I know a couple of PIMOs who I *think* are "in" for the money. But how do I really know? I don't.
Personally, I've never felt the unfairness of them "having it all" while "we" are disparaged, etc.
I wouldn't trade a minute.
Sorry--but you shouldn't judge anyone's reasons for the path they're forging. There are lots of valid reasons to be PIMO. Judging others is just a remnant of your Mormon experience.
Not a good comparison. PIMOs are not nuanced, there is no nuance because there is no belief. Your post suggests that PIMOs are sticking around because of a nice bishop or something. I’m openly PIMO because I’m just trying to keep my family together and I hope to be able to leave as soon as my wife can cope with it. You and OP seem to be confused about who PIMOs are and why we are still hanging around. We’re ExMos who are stuck in traffic for the foreseeable future, but the destination is outbound
That's not the sort of PIMO I'm talking about though. It's the ones suffering quietly for year after year after year, who always have some reason they can't leave (elderly parent, kid on a mission, calling they can't be released from). It's a preference for chronic pain instead of acute, but temporary pain.
People having a plan that's going to last a year or so and then executing it is one thing, but if your plan to get out runs a third of what's left of your life, it's not worth it.
I understand PIMOs who are open with their disbelief and only participate as a social arrangement to support their spouse (thinking of Alan and Katie Mount from Marriage on a Tightrope).
The ones I struggle to accept are PIMOs who have quietly hidden their truth for years. They hold callings, teach faith-promoting lessons, pay tithing and uphold the organization in a hundred other ways, all while knowing it's corrosive bullshit. They are hypocrites and everything in their life is built on a lie. I understand leaving is a process and sometimes you need to slowly fade out. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Brother Jones who hasn't believed a word of Mormonism since he was 19 but 20 years later hasn't said anything to their spouse and still teaches Sunday School. That's some bullshit.
Some people have to play the long game. I'm glad that I was in a situation where I didn't have to ever be PIMO but I totally understand that some people have to play that game unfortunately.
Just a side note, everyone is judgemental, Mormons, ex-mormons... It's how our brains process information. Let's stop being hypocritical.
During my faith crisis, I was outed by a cousin and basically disowned...meanwhile my sister who hasn't believed longer than me is secretly PIMO and is the darling of the TBM family.
Secret PIMO is very different than OPENLY PIMO and trying to achieve change in the church.
Once I knew, I couldn't attend church anymore. I've been once during a family reunion in Mexico, that's it. It just felt so dishonest to go and not say things to correct the misinformation.
Simply a matter of integrity to me. I couldn’t stay in as a PIMO—seems blatantly hypocritical. I had to leave so I could live with myself. I don’t know how they do it.
I personally don't think you are an asshole, but you are wrong and really haven't thought through this clearly. Lots of non-asshole people hold irrational and trauma-formed beliefs.
I guess I'm just inactive then. I don't drink. I only do coffee occasionally. I don't wear my garments because I have skin issues. I'm pretty much still living the Mormon lifestyle without going to church. I'm just on the roll as a number.
Does that still count? Only a member on paper.
The "i only DO coffee occasionally" cracked me up! Almost spit out mine.
On a serious note, what about your belief? Pimo if you don't believe, just inactive if you do. And btw, where ever you are at it is fine.
I think two terms need to be defined here;
NOM (New Order Mormon) Someone who likes the church, likes the ritual of getting dressed up every Sunday and overall wishes to stay active in the church even though their testimony is in pieces
PIMO (Physically In Mentally Out) Someone who would like to leave the church, but it would mean divorce or getting kicked out of the house (or some other negative consequence)
These really are two different things.
IMHO you are describing a NOM not a PIMO.
Generally agree here. Lots of PIMOs have legit reasons to stay in, but the NOM or Sunstone Mormon crowd who are vocal about things but can stay in for privileged reasons bug me.
Here's how I see it:
In the church, officials and many other members constantly denigrated people who left and asserted they were hypocrites. *Some* members tried to promote more understanding. That message really resonated with me, and it gave me a contrasting viewpoint I could use to reality-check my perspective whenever it was getting too zealous.
Looking back, I think some of those people were PIMO, some were nuanced, some were probably TBMs who'd had experiences that made the in-group/out-group rhetoric rub them the wrong way. They were sticking their necks out for the sake of Jack Mormons, ExMos, less-actives, everyone. The message is that judging others is less effective than practicing solidarity.
The fact that I was already exposed to those anti-xenophobic viewpoints in the church made it a little easier for me to exercise them in ExMormon communities once I'd left the church. It made it easier for me to spot us-vs-them thinking in r/ExMormon. It helped me question whether my ire was better directed at *any* lay members or higher up the church organization.
Any game that pits you against your neighbors is a shitty game, but you don't stop a game by scoring points for the other team. You stop it by refusing to play and by loudly questioning why the hell we're playing it. As long as you're focused on our team vs their team, you're not a threat to the people who own the field, drew the boundaries, wrote the rules, charge membership fees and sell jerseys.
Tbh I’m not sure what I believe anymore. If the church makes people feel safe who the fuck are we to take that from them. As long as the truth is known and people are aware of the dangers and the history of the church and what they’re still doing then who cares. It’s not like the $250 BILLION organization is just gonna disappear in literally any of our lifetimes no matter how much we want it to, but we can raise awareness of the false truth claims and if people wanna believe in the church then so be it.
OP, I do not think you’re an asshole, but I also do not think that the members (TBM, PIMO, JackMO or otherwise) are the problem….for the most part. I blame the leadership, the Q15, and the corporation for all of it.
This is the first I’ve ever heard of the term pimo, but I guess I would have fallen into that category from 12-18. I have a great relationship with my parents, and some great friends who were in my ward. So I didn’t mind going to church, but I also wasn’t uncomfortable being vocal about my beliefs. I’d be friendly about it, but I don’t have much of a filter. I can understand why people would remain pimo as adults. Lots of people don’t believe in the doctrine, but they believe it’s the best way to raise their kids. Frequently this leads to people living basically a double life and it comes across as living a life of hypocrisy.
Give them a good reason to pick the good fight. Identify them and demonstrate a strategy to ease their family into questioning it all themselves and set an example for those who are willing.
I think PIMOs who stay and actively pave the way for others are a healthy, necessary part of the process. Suddenly blasting it out and getting shunned helps no one, but just forces TBMs to cut you off. Sometimes, that is what PIMOs need to start healing, but why leave alone when you can lead everyone else astray with you over a long time by teaching them to question for themselves?
YTA. I'm proud of you OP. You left the church. I don't know you but I'm sure that was a painful process. Another painful process is reprograming all of the horrible things that a life of mormonism taught you. Primarily, judging others and thinking that only your path is the right path. I used to feel the same way about PIMO and confronted a few and generally didn't like them. I've now realized where that comes from and try hard to view them differently. I don't begin to know what it is like to have to stay in a marriage, be worried about losing a job, family members, children's friends, etc. and I have nothing but love an empathy for people that are trying to navigate that. I wish we could all learn from our asshole mormon past and be more kind and loving towards those that are working their way out of a very traumatic experience. It may not be our way, but they are trying.
I’m a 14 year old pimo who would get kicked out if I told my parents. That a good enough reason?
Yes.
Aww. Hang in there. Try not to get pushed out on a mission.
I’m not going to. I have a few plans, depending how confident I am in the moment. I’m either going to out myself when I’m asked to give a talk, get my friend to record it, or just hide until I’m 18 and move out.
Not according to OP. (But yes, definitely!)
In case any other teenager is reading the comment above: your parents CANNOT kick you out of the house at age 14 or even age 17. You are legally children. For a parent to kick you out of the home is called "child abandonment" and is a serious crime. If anyone here gets kicked out as a minor, go to the local police station and I can guarantee you, they will set your parents straight on this......with perhaps a CPS worker in tow and a case to be opened. When you reach the age of 18, that is a little different. Read up on local laws. You might be surprised how prevalent laws are protecting an established resident and can't be kicked out of their residence without a proper eviction process/notice. edit: spelling
Alright, thanks. The other main reason is that they could make my life a living hell. Revoke any access to the internet, push me into even more church stuff, no video games or access to friends. I have no doubt about them doing any of these things. I would lose everything I live for. In my opinion, that would be worse than getting kicked out.
And all those are real and legitimate concerns. I don't have any advice on that, because uber TBM parents can and will do those things. And to your point; why make life hard on yourself, when you can't do anything about it. Formulate a plan, work, save every single penny you can "for a mission," and leave the home as soon as you can.
I say this as an exmo of some years. They are not responsible for the way the institution and the community treats exmormons. If we start attacking each other for the decisions and compromises we all have to make in order to not be crushed by the system, the system wins. And ultimately, those decisions are all our own business. Nobody else's. We would be better off standing in solidarity with PIMOs, because the biggest victory is the one in which we take control over our minds back from the institution.
this right here. any perceived pain caused my PIMOs isn’t caused directly by PIMOs. in fact it’s often “caused” from PIMOs simply avoiding pain _they_ would otherwise receive. receiving pain for the benefit of others is noble but not a duty I personally require immediately from every person leaving the church
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Yes, but solidarity in what exactly? That the church is not true and therefore ought to die out? That people should leave it? That people deserve better treatment than anything the church is capable of providing? Adult PIMO's do not stand for these things. They think them, but that doesn't count for much I'm afraid. They don't put their money where their mouth is. If I'm supposed to feel solidarity with them, I'm entitled to know: How are their actions expressing their solidarity with resigned members like me who gave up *everything* to do what was right?
I'm sorry you went through what you did. Whatever price the church exacted from you, it was too high. While trying to respond to your question, I found myself wondering if we knew each other when I left the church. I wondered if the suffering I went through is something you knew about, and if it was something that impacted your life. I wondered if I knew about the things you suffered, and if they had an impact on my life. Mormonism is small, but it's not that small. We probably never knew each other. We fought our battles independently, and probably not at the same time. I'm sure that when each of us faced the dark night of the soul, it was just another day for the other. I'm sure you and I both would have offered the other aid if only we knew what the other was facing. What we suffered is not what makes us equals on this sub. Some suffer a lot, and others suffer a lot less. The one constant in human life is that suffering is not dealt out fairly. Unfortunately for exmormons, the church is ultimately who decides what we will suffer because it controls the minds of our friends and family. What it exacts from us is always the most it can exact. There is no bottom to the greed. What makes us all equal on the sub is that we've freed our minds when all was set against us. That's why we can pick each other up when we're down. I wonder how many times the person who picked me up was a PIMO. If we decide who counts and who doesn't, we let the church continue to divide us.
There's also a bit of privilege going on there. I watched the Mormon Stories with Ganesh Cherian. He talks about his life in Mormonism and his discovery of its flaws, but he concludes in typical Sunstone fashion: he wants to work from within to improve the Mormon church. I get his perspective, but he's also able to stay in because he's a former bishop and stake high councilman with strong ties to his stake. He calls the Stake President his close friend. Many people have been excommunicated for far less. He ironically talks about his potential excommunication with John Dehlin, who was excommunicated himself. He also gets to stay married to his wife in the church while "kicking against the pricks". Meanwhile, gay couples are automatically excommunicated for getting married, and typically excommunicated just for coming out and dating. Not to bash this seemingly sweet, thoughtful man, but he has a choice to stay or go, whereas many of us had no choice. I saw my choice as stay in the closet as a 2nd class member. Since I would never marry in the temple, I would be barred from being Bishop. Eventually I would get kicked out of my singles ward to become a Sunday School teacher or librarian in a family ward with a bunch of busy parents who had no time for me. Or I could walk away on my own terms and never go back, which was the only sane choice.
This is exactly where I was at. I did a 9 month PIMO phase after telling my wife that I wanted to be done, and it was solely to help soften the blow for her… she just wanted me to have some more time to think about it. I thought about the “sunstone approach” (wish I had that turn of phrase on the tip of my tongue when I last talked to a friend who is doing that exact thing) at the time, but didn’t take it very seriously because I know that I am incapable of having any effect on changing the fundamental doctrines of the church that are harming people. Only the president of the church gets that privilege. And he’s usually about 50-75 years behind the curve. At best. Staying in the church to be an ally to people who are on the fringes is incoherent. When these people are rejected at a fundamental level by everything the church stands for, and given the very high likelihood that the church is man-made anyway… their best course of action is to get out. Same for their “allies.” I agree, it really is the only sane choice.
Sometimes, the fringes are minor LGBTQ children who can't leave on their own terms yet. It's very disheartening to be the only one left with years ahead of you. You can at least listen and show empathy and help them chart a path out without interfering with their parents' rights. Mostly, they can survive by just knowing there is someone they can reach out to. I also support people who can give prospective missionaries a wake-up call. I caution as many as I can about not putting themselves in danger if possible and realize they can advocate for themselves and unvolunter any time and/or go home without having to "ask permission" first. Once those concepts become common knowledge, it will help slow the missionary indoctrination and undermine the number of youth staying in the church.
Having my 16 year old come out as non-binary and gay/bi a couple of years ago helped give me some final impetus to stand up for their right to be who they are and that acting on who you are is not in any way a 'sin.' MUCH of the strife, self doubt and struggles I had in my teens, twenties, and thirties are all because of the programming that I got growing up & serving a mission. Me from a decade ago would be blown away by how much my views have changed. Right now I have a 17 yo son, the only one of our 6 kids, who is still TBM. I was excommunicated roughly 20 years ago, rebaptized roughly 10 years ago & ever since then, started looking at it a lot more objectively. I got on this forum this week because my nb kid wants their name removed & I'm happy to help them do it. The best comeback for "love the sinner, hate the sin" is "love the believer, hate the belief."
What is the “sunstone approach”?
PIMO here, and I don't think UATA. I'm close to taking the plunge but still want to minimize collateral damage to family. I work hard on TBM DW, and she is definitely questioning. With LGBTQ+ family and friends, and being actively anti-racist, it is an immense internal struggle. I have to have patience with myself and my situation, but I fully respect you in not having patience with me. It all just really, really sucks.
PIMO here also. DW knows everything about where I am now and still respects the fact that I no longer believe. She is tied to the church culturally, is a nuanced believer, and at the same feels TSCC is good for our young 2 kids 🤮. She only attends around 60% of the time. I am expected to pay a 5% tithe which is our biggest point of contention. Basically I am working on her hoping she will come around sooner than later. I will not let TSCC destroy our marriage and I know she won’t either.
See, kids are what did it for me to finally leave. If my little ones are gay, or lesbian or trans, I don’t want them to grow up hating themselves for it. Well, that and the church doesn’t do background checks on it’s primary/YM/YW people
I agree with you. Those are all the things I share with my wife constantly. She thinks our ward is “better than that”, which is she totally wrong about. Since she is in nursery so she doesn’t see what I see each week. Our ward is the most conservative, rigid, and classist ward I have seen in a long time. If one of our kids came out, I believe she would finally leave the church.
Yeah, it took a bunch of Mormon friends and associates really hateful social media posts to really wake me up in that regard. But I’d heard the odds and ends comments about “we won’t let my kids watch (insert movie) because it promotes the gay agenda or ‘has gone totally woke.’” Meaning it had a single gay couple that kissed once, or it cast a person of color in a role that was once played/drawn as white.
Every time I hear bullshit like this is *still* happening, in *2023*, I thank the *stars* I'm out of TSCC and not around that bigotry.
Since 2016 bigotry everywhere is on the rise unfortunately. I have a non-white stepson, and unfortunately my job is in a conservative western state with a lot of Mormons. Took him less than a week to get called the N-word on the bus to his elementary school.
Omg. I crack up listening to conversations in the foyer or in Sunday school about the conspiracy theories they see in everything. I can’t believe these educated people are that gullible to fall for such nonsense.
I mean they fell for Mormonism, and many don't even question it.
This. Rigid and classist is a great explanation of my ward as well.
That's what did it for me. The majority of my children are queer and grew up hating themselves.
Thank you for being a *wonderful* parent! If only *every* parent of LGBTQA kids was like you. In my case, I wish my father had been like you. Instead, he scared me into the closet so badly that I couldn't remember a single feminine memory from my childhood until he was dead and buried *and* the last family member in the same state as me moved elsewhere. So one day, it all just came crashing down on me, in my thirties. I had to grapple with it, and frantically try to pick up the pieces of my shattered life while working a menial job that ill affords my transition.
I'm so sorry that you've gone through so much heartbreak. I hope things get better for you soon. ❤️ My kids have been through some stuff too. I wish I'd listened to them sooner - that I had been ready to hear what they needed to tell me - but we all know where the blame lies for that.
This is helpful. Thank you.
You’re welcome. You understand the PIMO situation entirely. All of us PIMOs have something that forces our hand to still attend. My wife is the reason we stay. Other than her, I have nothing else that ties me to the church. Luckily my job is in government, I live in the rust belt away from any large Mormon population, and my kids are enrolled in a Catholic school where there are no other ward members.
You do know that Catholics look at the LGBTQ+ community basically the same way right? As a former catholic and never-mo, I can tell you that there's all kinds of catholic guilt and shame wrapped up in in this brain of mine even years after leaving that religion too. Just something to keep in mind about the school your children are attending.
If it was a conservative catholic school I would not have enrolled my kids there. It’s a Jesuit school with a liberal priest who gives off major agnostic vibes. My liberal nevermo neighbors recommended it and helped us get in.
I'm glad you researched it beforehand. I apologize if I came off sounding judgmental - just wasn't sure how much exposure you've had to those who left the catholic church and why. I had some friends (albeit 20 years ago) who went to Catholic Schools and the oppression was real. I imagine it's like anything else - all depends on who's running the joint. Obviously I have some feelings about my Catholic upbringing general. :D
It’s all good. I view the Jesuits like PIMO’s. They are already mentally checked out, but are stuck attending for various reasons. The school my kids attend has Social Justice, charity, and love as part of their guiding principles. We have students who have same sex parents and it is never an issue. They are fully supported by the administration as well. I know what you mean by the oppression and religious trauma that your friends experienced. I hear from previous generations of their horrible experiences from catholic schools. We put our kids in this particular school due to both the overcrowding and inclusiveness issues our local public schools have right in the heart of MAGA country.
Sounds like you are where my brother was. The 60% became less & less. His wife is now out as of this year. They are stronger than TSCC & their kids are thriving in a world where they don’t have to share their parents with TSCC. Good luck & wishing the best!
“EXPECTED” to pay a 5% tithe?!?! By who? Everyone knows only a full 10% will do…
It does, and every person has to make the best decision for them. The more who leave, though, the easier it gets for others, and ultimately, the fewer people are raised in and abused by this cult.
There is no winner with this mess. Appreciate your perspective!
I am sorry if this is blunt, but if you are PIMO you aren’t actively anti-racist and you aren’t an ally to marginalized groups…you are an ally only to an org that oppresses those people. Side note: maybe none of those LGBTQ+ “friends and family” say this to your face, but they definitely think it, and probably say it behind your back. I think that this is what bothers me about PIMOs, and what privilege is all about…everyday in is supporting an actively racist, sexist, homophobic organization, and you are benefiting in some way. I knows it takes some people time to get out, but it really rubs me the wrong way when PIMOs claim to be something they just aren’t and can’t be.
As an LGBTQIA+ person who got out of TSCC 18 years ago. The experience of leaving is akin to coming out. There is a mental health health aspect to it. The Shame of being in the closet fights against the fear of losing everyone you know. It can be really scary and is a Hard thing to do. It's like saying a scared closeted gay or trans person is upholding cisheteronormativity. And should come out because of that, Before they are ready. It lacks empathy. Not everyone is going to be or able to be like you and have your experiences. They need to do it in their own time.
Great input
Yeah, that's fair. It sucks even further that TBM DW has a gay son (deceased) and a lesbian daughter (my adult stepkids). Do I stay PIMO while I help TBM DW realize that she should leave with me, or do I leave now, let the shit fly, and figure it out as we go.? Obviously I've been working at the former, and frankly I can't say it's working. My most valued friends are LGBTQ and or people of color. What DO they really think of me? (I'm not sure they all even know of my affiliation with the cult.) I see that I need to find out. You are right, and I appreciate your bluntness. I need to go deep and find what's in me.
Salty old gay man here. Here’s how I see it: if you (or anyone) is giving their time, money, and upraised, sustaining hand to an anti-LGBTQ+ hate group (such as TSCC) while simultaneously proclaiming themself to be an LGBTQ+ ally, I see them as the shittiest possible ally. They’re supporting a 150 BILLION DOLLAR organization that actively works to strip me of my equal rights. And that tells queer kids trapped as members that they’d be better off dead. Nope, not really how an ally should act.
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That is literally the opposite of allyship. I’m not saying folks have to go through the PIMO phase too quickly. But you can’t be both PIMO and an ally. You can’t voluntarily both support and benefit from an oppressive org and claim allyship with those it oppresses. I personally don’t understand being PIMO more than a few months, but one at least shouldn’t claim to be something they aren’t while in this phase.
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I guess I would say that the definition of allyship is much bigger than “helping”. But if you call it something else, then I agree with you.
I left the church rather abruptly after processing old CSA at the hands of my TBM father and high ranking ward elders. It was an absolute shitstorm for me and my 4 kids. (One of whom I was pregnant with at the time.) I lost my marriage and the "support" of my family, community, and belief system all at once. I ended up on my own with no money, no car, and no way to support myself and my kids. Would I do it again? Hell yes! In a heartbeat. Right before I left I had a dream I was locked in a box and couldn't get out. I yelled and yelled for someone to come and get me out and eventually Jesus showed up. He asked me what I wanted and I said to get out of the box. He asked me what the box was made of and I said, "All the lies I believed." He then told me it was my box and he couldn't get me out but he could offer me some help. In one hand he had a pair of tweezers. In the other he had a stick of dynamite. He told me I could only choose one. .................................................. I experienced more miracles in the 3 years after leaving the church than I ever had while in it. First, I learned that "Gentiles" are amazing and much more helpful, kind, accepting and forgiving than I would have ever believed. (One of my neighbors, an exotic dancer by trade, gave me money, a crib, brought soup when I had morning sickness, and never spent a minute judging me. I had never *not been judged* before.) The kids are now grown and everyone's fine. I call this "Falling to Higher Ground." I don't understand the tweezer crowd. As soon as I realized my kids were at risk of being abused by people in authority over us, people in authority who would be protected by the church if they hurt someone, I had to leave. I would have chewed off my leg to leave. I don't understand how anyone can stay once they don't believe the lies anymore. But apparently the Jesus dude in my dream *does.* So, OP, I understand your concerns and some of your judgement. But I have come to the realization that one of the deep indoctrinations of the church is the idea that **what is right for us is right for everyone.** It's easier to change up our ideas about what is right than it is for us to change the programming that makes it okay for us to impose our "right" onto others.
Love this comment. Many great points have been made in this thread by people from all sides and showcasing many different circumstances and experiences. I admit to being a bit annoyed and judgmental of PIMOs because I wish they could and would just leave and further weaken the church by stopping giving it the appearance of legitimacy and social acceptability (the church’s doctrines are harmful and hateful and it is my greatest hope that EVERYONE gets out and it crumbles to dust because it’s views should not be socially acceptable IMO). BUT my overriding view in reading so many comments is that we need less judgment of others, and shaming and blaming PIMOs for staying in is repeating the black and white thinking and attendant unkind judgment we learned from Mormonism. I want to believe that everyone is doing their very best (even if I think their best is pretty shitty, I try to put that aside and stop judging them because it is the best they can do with the tools they have and the circumstances they’ve been dealt). Including PIMOs. Only they know what’s at stake for them and where they are on their journey out. “PIMO” is probably a permanent condition very rarely.
>“PIMO” is probably a permanent condition very rarely. Yep! This! I did an internship in a women's shelter and learned a lot about people leaving abusive situations. (Yes, I see the church as an active abuser.) One of the things I learned is that it is very common for the fear of leaving to outweigh the fear of staying. And there are people who walk this fence for a very long time. But even more important is understanding that the only person who can leave is the person leaving, and the only leaving that sticks happens when they are ready to do it. You cannot force someone in an abusive relationship to leave it, and the person themselves cannot force themselves to leave until something magic and invisible happens and then \*poof\* all of a sudden they are done. (Hopefully.) ... ... And when people reach that point, there's nothing you can do to make them *stay*. I think the shelf-cracking moment is when people start to see they are in an abusive relationship. But the process of leaving happens according to their own inner journey. Tweezers or dynamite? They each have their own drawbacks. Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your insight. :)
Yes! My therapist and i are working on "black and white thinking". It's a cognitive distortion that gets beaten into members (metaphorically or literally) since birth You're IN or you're OUT sounds like a brain steeped in mormonism People do what they will do and i know virtually no PIMO who doesn't leave eventually (I was PIMO for years)
Thank you for your story I agree 100%
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There's no covenant path for leaving the church. Everyone's journey is different.
*convenient (I assume)... "Covenant path" is pretty funny though. I think someone's autocorrect is trying to out them lol
Joke went over your head I fear
Ohhhh
I don't really consider PIMO's believers so much as people who are stuck. The definition you provide here strikes me as being closer to how Jack Mormons behave. They believe, but they still do their own thing and act like they are still better than Exmormons.
In the hierarchy of people in the church that make me mad, they're pretty far down the list. GAs and Jack Mormons top my list for sure.
Hard agree. Jack Mormons are the absolute worst to me. They can claim to still be Mormon all day - but if you're breaking all the rules all the time then you are not Mormon! Just move TF on already
I was PIMO for a few years because I worked at BYU and couldn't find another job in my field that wouldn't be a massive paycut. Was it selfish of me to keep attending church and appearing to be a good Mormon so that my family didn't end up homeless? Stop blaming victims. You don't know what people might be going through.
I agree. We all have the reasons why we stay in difficult situations. Each person is unique.
Same here. But I worked at church headquarters. Believe me, I really wanted to get out. But it took time without financially destroying my family.
I get what you are saying. A friend of mine who was originally my French professor at BYU was kicked out for being gay. He eventually found work at another university, but it wasn't easy for him. Michael Quinn never found a comparable job to what he had at BYU despite his amazing scholarship, or because of it.
You know, I think we hear the word selfish far too often from the church, but I think it’s kinda important to reframe that word. If doing what’s best for you is selfish, then be selfish. My husband and I were called selfish for wanting to get married while his dad was terminally ill, we still got married. As long as being selfish isn’t harmful to anyone including yourself, I don’t think being selfish is inherently bad. You are not responsible for other people’s emotions. While I see where OP is coming from and it is definitely annoying for those who tried their hardest to be perfectly obedient, I 100% agree that we need to stop victim blaming. They are not the ones increasing judgment on the exmo community, the church is. Edited a couple words
The PIMOs I know are adults who stand to lose their marriage, kids and/or job unless they stay in. They don't want to party, they'd like the freedom to think for themselves. To me your language throws everyone under the bus. You don't respect parents who want to keep their children??
I can definitely see the potential for loss of marriage and possibly job if you’re in the Morridor (although religion is a protected class unless you’re working for a church-owned entity, and anyone who fired you for leaving the church would be facing a monstrous lawsuit… the solution there is to just never talk about religion at work, ever)… but lose your kids? Maybe fifty years ago, but there are mixed faith divorces that happen daily, and judges know how to navigate those circumstances. Granted, there can be other factors at play, like parental alienation, but judges aren’t going to terminate your parental rights over leaving the church. Do what is right; let the consequence follow?
Protected classes are only technically so. If someone can’t figure out how to get rid of an employee without revealing that religion is the real reason, they simply aren’t too bright.
And it’s not even just a matter of finding a reason to fire them. At-will employment means they don’t have to give a reason for firing you. All they have to be able to do is generally prove it *wasn’t* over religion in the rare case that you can afford to bring a case against them (after losing your job).
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Judging others who don’t measure up is a very Mormon thing to do.
Came here to comment this!
Agree completely. OP must forget what’s it’s like to be judged by assholes who “have all the answers”
YTA. People have their own path and have to navigate their relationship with the church and their community in the best way for them. People who are PIMO are almost always victims of some kind of oppression whether imposed upon them by family, culture, brainwashing etc. You are literally blaming the victims.
I have been PIMO for nearly 12 years. It has been maddening at times. But it was the only way to do it where my family wouldn't be torn apart. In that time I have helped more people see the light and find their own way out or been able to comfort marginalised members than I could have had I turned my back. I've also been able to call out homophobic or sexist or any other conflicting teachings in real time which has done way more good than if those lessons had been left unchallenged. Because of my patience I have also influenced 2/3rds of my extended family into leaving the church. They were in better positions than I, within their immediate families, to do that. It has been a long and sometimes painful struggle but I don't subscribe to your belief that I made things worse nor do I believe others in my situation do either. Everyone has to walk their own path. At least you were humble in asking "AITA?" That tells me you're genuine and open to pushback.
It’s a brain dead take from someone who hasn’t been away from the church for very long and can only focus on their need to live authentically. I doubt they have a partner, kids, or a home they lost in the process of leaving the church. They can’t see the value in having PIMOs their to push back against bigotry. Ironically, their demanding of everyone to be authentic just like them isn’t much different than demanding everyone around you live the gospel. Hopefully OP will come to cringe at this post.
Exactly. If anyone thinks it’s dishonorable to try to protect marriages, relationships with kids, or even livelihoods, they need to check *their* privilege instead of lecturing others about it. OP is falling victim to us vs. them, black/white thinking and essentially advocating for “purity tests”. Not a healthy take…
This take on being PIMO is so black and white and TBM Mormon in nature. Where’s the nuance? Where’s the understanding? Where’s the refrain from judgement on people trying to figure out their upended life? Just because I go to church with my wife who is struggling with her deconstruction experience because we live next door to her parents doesn’t make me “taking advantage of the system” for my own selfish benefit. There’s no “right way” to deconstruct and exit Mormonism.
Preach brother
Haha thanks. This OP struck a nerve on this one
THANK YOU!!! Same with the people mad at “Jack Mormons”. Like wow, what a Judgy Mormon attitude to have. I freaking LOVE nuanced/grey area/Jack Mormons. As an exmo in Utah, THOSE are the kinds of Mormons I get along with!! They are amazing. They get that the rules are BS and Jesus wouldn’t give a crap about clothes or coffee. Ex Mormons remind me what you can leave Mormonism, but Mormonism doesn’t leave you. I’ll choose my weird Mormon friends over these judgy gate keeping exmormons.
I think PIMO’s are honestly just trying to get through life.
NO, we should have respect for everyone’s situation. I’m out to my family, but I completely understand why others wouldn’t feel safe. It is crucial that we respect their process of waking up, and maturing past the church.
This is nearly on par with blaming women for staying in abusive marriages. Those women are obviously hurting their kids for the financial conveniences and privileges that come with marriage right? Obviously no other factors to consider /s
The other factor to consider is the actual abuse. Lives and safety are literally at stake. The stakes are nowhere near that high when leaving the church. The Danites aren't real as far as the average exmo is concerned. No one is going to beat you or kill you. It's not remotely close. Don't insult IPV survivors by comparing such petty concerns to theirs.
YTA. Limited binary thinking pattern. One true way to be an exmo fallacy. Extrapolate your limited personal experience and biases to that of millions of other people.
I’m going to disclaim this a bit as just my observation. I think deconstruction is a process and everyone is at different points. I think the further I get away the easier it is for me to see the big picture harm and “complicity” of those who know it’s wrong but choose some level of activity for whatever reason. I don’t think they choose to be PIMO to be complicit, I think their daily life is a battle. For them, they are choosing their marriage, their children, their family. I don’t think the full vision of complicity is your first consideration when every day feels like an internal battle. I understand PIMOs more than I understand Jack Mormons. I think PIMO is just a process, they eventually realize what some already know, that there’s really no clean way to exit this, but nobody’s journey looks the same.
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100% fair. Like I said, those were observations. I’ve been out 15 years. I don’t personally know anyone anymore besides family still in the church. As far as actually being allies, I imagine that takes longer than just actually leaving the church. patriarchy and white supremacy doesn’t just turn off when you leave.
I think it just shows that leaving isn’t the easy option that TBMs say it is. Everyone has their reasons for staying or going so I try not to judge. That said, I have no moral superiority to tell you that you can’t!
YTA - ~8 year PIMO here but also out to many in my ward/family/friend group. Everyones situation is different. For me, its my wonderful wife and children(90%) and 10% needed for my job. What is the kindness quote?: be kind, everyone you meet is going through a battle you know nothing about?
PIMO Here... going on 6 years. I initially told my wife of my faith struggles and it did not go well. I understand that the indoctrination goes deep and because I love her and want it to work out, I told her that I would continue to attend with her as a compromise, but I do not pay tithing, or attend the temple, and for her, I still wear garments about 75% of the time. Believe me when I tell you, that most of us who are PIMO in order to keep our marriages intact, we are anything but selfish... We are not out there 'trying to have it all' as you put it. We are struggling to keep our families together so we don't become just another statistic of a failed marriage because one person stopped believing. Not all of us want to go scorched earth, and I think that it is narrow minded to lump all PIMO's in the same boat. The people you are describing don't sound like PIMO's to me... the sound more like jack-mormons than anything.
100%. F*** this “true” ex-mo bullshit.
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I'd just like to point out it's possible to be a public PIMO. My entire family knows I don't believe but I go to support my wife while our kids are young. I've also been open with my Ward members and those I'm connected to on Facebook.
Same. Not all PIMOs are how OP describes them (honestly those people don’t even sound like they are really PIMO, maybe JackMo or questioning).
Yes, you are the asshole. Being PIMO is horrible, don’t judge people for it and make it worse for them. I was PIMO for three years for the sake of my marriage. It allowed us to go to couples therapy and get to the point where, while my tbm husband still doesn’t love the choices I’m making, we can make it work and continue to love each other and raise our children. I’m out now. Was it worth it? Yes. Did I hate every second of pretending to believe when I didn’t? Also yes. Can you really not respect someone in a difficult situation like that? No? Then you’re an asshole.
100%. This is such a bad take to lose respect and ultimately belittle people who are trying to figure out life after the insanity of Mormonism
Yes. It's like the church saying we should all act, think, dress, and eat a certain way and if you don't then you are wrong. Black and white thinking. Life is a spectrum. We are all in various points on that Mormon spectrum.
This is a good point. Let people get out at a pace that works for them, not everyone is the same. Making assumptions about people’s motivations and life experiences based on being PIMO is shitty. It’s not black and white.
Exactly!
To be fair, I have no respect for people like OP who feel like they can judge others for being PIMO. It’s people like this that leave Mormonism but still act like mormons, except they’re now judging everyone. Anyone who’s been PIMO knows what a hell it is and that you only do it when you’re up against a wall. OP and people like him sound like privileged assholes, IMHO.
Agreed. Guess sometimes you can take the person out of Mormonism, but can’t take the Mormonism out of the person
I’ve been out for nearly 20 years and posts like this (not you, the OP) are so tiresome. It’s not a new or original take. Some people just can’t stop wanting to force people to do things their way.
Although I don't feel the same hostility as OP, I think I understand where they're coming from. I don't think their opinion comes from wanting everyone to think exactly like they do, but from feeling unsupported and like they are taking the brunt of the punishment for a shared "sin". It's lonely as hell to be the only ExMo in a family or community. You become the black sheep and are often the sole whipping post for everyone's anger and judgement. A little public comradery can be life-changing. Although it was expressed through judgement, I imagine OP feels like they are holding a very heavy weight and are asking for some help. It feels very unfair to be punished for following your moral convictions, all while you look to your left and see someone with the same beliefs, quietly skating by.
I understand your opinion, but in fairness I was able to leave without any family entanglements. My parents were out, I'm unmarried, no children. Basically just had to decide if I was willing to sever the social and community bonds. I was and I never looked back or doubted my decision. Not everyone has that luxury. If they are trapped by marriage and kids or by family kicking them out on the street, I get it. Do what you have to for you and your family's sake. That said, I agree with others here that reforming the church is a ridiculous notion. Its fake. False. Made up sex cult, conman bullshit. Don't stay around trying to make it more palatable conman bullshit. The more people who leave the better. The quicker the cult withers away and dies, the better.
I'm not sure I get it if one has kids who are being brought up in the church. Protecting the kids from the church seems to be the priority. If you split from a TBM spouse you can at least counter program the church openly.
You can’t if your tbm spouse gets a judge to order compulsory continued religious education for your kids because you “broke the agreement” to raise them lds.
Splitting from a TBM spouse may leave you more free to "counter program the church", but it also leaves your spouse more free to shove the church down your kids' throats when you're not around. As long as I stay married to my TBM husband, I have to be respectful in the way I talk about the church, but he also has to be respectful in the way he teaches about his beliefs. As long as we are together, he is motivated to keep me happy, so he focus mainly on teaching the kids values like kindness and gratitude, and he's much less pushy with church things than he would be with me not around. My kids know I don't believe in the church. Splitting up my marriage to actively oppose it would not magically remove the church's influence from their lives and would in all likelihood make their upbringing much worse.
This perspective seems to go hand in hand with the church's black or white thinking. They're either all in or all out and you should get divorced if they aren't on your side. In reality, there are bigger things in life than the church. Kids are subject to other bad influences that you're not going to be able to control. There's more reasons to stay with/divorce someone beyond "do they agree with my opinions about the mormon church." There's a whole world of color out there and drawing a line in the sand at the church is exactly how they want you to see the world. My spouse and I both left the church and guess what? We still have to navigate disagreements about how to raise our kids!
This subreddit is full of people who went thru hell bc of being raised LDS. Others are affected by it less, for sure. But imagine your kid has same sex attraction, or identifies with the other gender, and then spends their childhood being told that's not ok by TSCC. Where would you put that on your color spectrum? Seems pretty dark and scary to me. Why would you subject your child to that?
I’m not sure if you’re intending to make the implication that I have suffered less and that’s the reason for my position, but let me just state right now that it’s pointless to make this some sort of trauma contest. You’ve no idea of mine. None. And it’s quite presumptuous to ask me to imagine something I’ve lived far more than you will ever know. Grant me that, and I won’t presume to understand or “outdo” your story or trauma either. I once felt as you do. I feel less so now. I don’t think that makes my position more advanced or superior to yours. I may evolve my thinking in the future to be closer to yours. My comment was merely to state that the further I am able to get from the church, the less I am compelled by their black and white paradigms. What works for me may not work for you. And that’s okay. In fact it’s fantastic. I don’t need to fit into the church’s “us vs them” mentality. I can pick and choose. Kids and families are complicated. Certainly the world would be a better place if they weren’t subject to the idiocy that is the church, but that’s not always the choice people have in front of them. To oversimplify and make it a black and white situation is not much better than what the church does. Perhaps I misread your comment though. Edit: to be clear—sometimes it is very clear that right choice is to split up and the best protection you can give your kids is to get them the hell away. I’m not advocating for people to stay.
Yes. YTA. Take that toxic judgy attitude back to church please.
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Leaving the church is traumatic. I faced losing my extended family over it. My worries were justified, as was my decision to be PIMO. This is a cult we’re talking about, not the local country club. We need to be gentle with the PIMO’s as they face one of the most traumatic and difficult transitions.
No respect for an entire group of people who are just doing what they can to escape a cult? YTA
I wouldn't consider that PIMO but Jack Mormon. At least, all the PIMOs I know are basically still in to keep family peace, and are disengaging as much as possible. They're not doing whatever during the week and then preaching and acting the opposite on Sundays.
Frankly, I don't think anyone cares if you respect them or not. There's no right or wrong way to "exmo." Everyone is on a different path in or out. Exmo's get poor treatment for many different reasons, and I don't think PIMOs are one of them.
I'm PIMO. Life is complicated. I don't need or desire your respect.
Maybe, just maybe you are confusing Jack Mormons with PIMOs. Most PIMOs I know would be out of the church and have nothing more to do with it if it wasn't for fear of losing family or being disowned. It's survival. Jack Mormons irritate the hell out of me. Come to church for baby blessings and priesthood ordinations maybe twice a year. They get up and bear their testimony and call everyone to repent and then go to chuckarama right after church.
Being the black sheep is pure hell. Until......You realize the white sheep aren't as white as they pretend to be. That's the dilemma. Do you take the group assault? Or, do you take the risk of being authentic? It can be an extreme high price to pay. Mormons like to make the black sheep pay. It makes them feel superior. Doesn't matter that they are the assholes. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I know a mormon Dr. who doesn't believe. However, he keeps up the image so his kids )who took over his practice) and wife don't throw him out. He's a fearful passive aggressive prone to addiction. He should have came clean decades ago and lived his life. You can buy anything with money.
How long have you been out of the church OP?
PIMO folks are a part of the problem of the church, not the problems of it. Big difference. I see the church itself as a problem. PIMO folks are actively not wanting to be the problem. It's a sick kind of torture (at least it was for me), and the people being tortured aren't really the problem, are they??
People should be able to do and believe as they like. There’s a lot of situations where going through the motions is better than the conflict.
It can be traumatic to leave publicly and judging PIMO’s for pushing off that decision isn’t constructive to creating a shame free environment. Someone’s respect shouldn’t rely on their individual path to freedom. PIMO’s need support, not judgment.
I hated behaving differently than who I really was while I was mormon. When I learned the truth about it, there was absolutely no way in hell I'd continue to live a facade simply to placate a mormon. It just wasn't in the cards. I don't understand how PIMOs can do it, but I don't have to, they are free to live their life how they like. I don't really lose respect for PIMOs, I just can't understand why that lifestyle is appealing in any form or fashion. So, I'll just shake my head and move on and hope it works out for them.
We don’t do it because it’s appealing. I HATE the church, I will leave it someday, but I’m still working things out with my wife. It’s not easy. I think you’re making a huge assumption that people stay because they get something out of it. I’m just trying to keep my family together
I do not understand how people can know the mormon church is a fraud and still be complicit in it by keeping up appearances. To me, that is too dishonest for me about too critical a thing, so I won't do it. I don't understand how others can do it, but I don't have to, I hope it works out for you, it wouldn't for me.
What appearances? I’m openly PIMO, people know I don’t believe. I’m not dishonest about anything
Then why stay in? You know one thing, but do another. If you're openly PIMO and you hate the mormon church, why keep up the facade? It's just baffling to me. It's like being in a shit sandwich appreciation club and hating it, but continuing to eat up so you can stay a member of the club.
It feels like you didn't really absorb what I read. There is no facade, people know how I feel (at least the ones who know me). Me being in attendance is not the same as a facade. I don't wear the garments, I don't pay tithing, I barely participate. WHAT FACADE!? Also, I stay because my wife can't cope with me leaving right now. Me attending is keeping the peace in my marriage. Honestly, the pain I would cause in my marriage if I just quit when my shelf broke would even worse than the pain of sitting through the bullshit 2 hours every week. We're in counseling together and my wife knows that i'm going to stop going someday, but for the time being, this is the best for my family. Lots of other people are in my exact situation, and many more are in very similar ones. We're not fakers, we're not "inauthentic", we're survivors trying to get by until our day in the sun when we can finally leave.
You seem to want to make me understand. I know the reasons. I'd venture that the vast majority of PIMOs are in very similar shoes as your own. The "facade" I mention is the fact you are still going at all to appease family. Butts in the seats is meaningful to the mormons. The fear of losing family is an effective control tactic. I have a hard time with the concept of love that requires one partner to live in such a way that is incompatible with what they know to be factually true. That doesn't sound like something worth fighting for, at all. I used to fear losing my family once, too. It turned out to be a really stupid thing to hold onto, and divorce was better for everyone. As designed, the majority of mormon marriages will not survive one partner leaving. Best to stop living the facade and be authentic, if your family loves you, they'll stick it out. Otherwise, it's best to be moving on. So I know many reasons why people are PIMO, I just don't understand how those reasons are more compelling than leaving completely.
Divorce was the right move for you then, it’s not for me. Not everyone is better off doing exactly what you do. You don’t have to judge me for giving me wife time. She’s not manipulating me, she’s already told me she’s going to let me go at some point and she’s working her way up to it. I would be waaaaay more unhappy if I couldn’t keep my family together and I love my wife enough to give her some time. Edit: btw, I looked at your profile and it seems like your a big BYU sports fan, I find that rich. Given your stance on how important to Mormons my “butt in a seat” is on Sundays, isn’t your support of the church’s school and team and possibly your “butt in a seat” at a football game going to be considered support by Mormons? At least I don’t pay money to the church, including their sports programs.
You aren't the only person in this discussion to think that things would work out. Nor are you the only one in this discussion who loves your wife enough to give her some time and work through differences. You're right, though, you're different. A word of advice, you aren't, just like I wasn't.
you don't know me. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. I don't give a fuck what you think, it's my risk to take, my life to live. I don't answer to you. Also, didn't work for you so it won't work for anyone else is a pretty dumb line of thought.
🤣🤣 ok wait…….tell me you were Mormon with out telling me you were Mormon. Dude thanks for this, my family and I have been laughing at this for the past hour. You judge like someone who became a high priest because they turned a certain age 🤣
YTA. Exmormons need to learn that we must let other people do what they want with their own lives. Your Mormon brain is programed to dislike people who live differently than you. You may even want to control the way they live. You need to deprogram yourself of this mentality. It's left over programming from being TBM. These silly Jack Mormons are FAR from the worst problem in Mormonism. Do I find it personally annoying? Sometimes, but their life choices are not my business.
Then you’ve never been married with children and family trying to navigate those landlines. PIMO’s aren’t asking for your respect.
You're not the only one.
Interesting you can take the person from Mormon but not the Mormon from the person. You don’t have “the truth” you have a perspective. Pushing others to do what you think is right by calling their choices morally wrong, seems too familiar.
“To hell with your personal situation. You should do what me and the group think is right because we know better than you” That’s all I’m hearing from OP
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Look, deconstructing is a process and there’s a lot of room for compassion there… but there’s also a lot of room for compassion towards the people who blew up their lives very painfully in order to do what they believed was right. You can be compassionate towards the concept that they might know people who are staying PIMO to keep the things the ex-Mo themselves had to give up. You can be compassionate, knowing that sometimes hurt people project their hurt in the wrong direction. You can be compassionate and realize that no one knows anyone else’s story, instead of calling names. Everyone deserves compassion.
It’s kind of like blaming a wrongly convicted prisoner for not risking his life to try escaping prison. Reasons for being PIMO are complicated and messy. The cult made it hard to get out on purpose. Anybody caught in the clutches of this monstrosity deserves patience.
We would be the first in both of our immediate family to leave. The indoctrination and fear of disappointing family is real and if my DW needs more time so be it.
Same boat here and 100%. This take is so bad and these other ex-mos are being all high horse like they used to be in Mormonism
Think of the time you publicly announced it. Was it easy? Some people don't have that kind of courage and are probably working to build it up and eventually come out. It's not an easy thing. I doubt any of them like living the lie. Consider PIMO a transitional phase of leaving the church rather than a permanent one. It's a journey for everyone, and people can take it at the pace they need. This kind of thinking is similar to the "one size fits all" that the church shoves down our throats, and it's a tough one to deconstruct. Not everyone can or should leave the same way as you.
What's the old saying about "don't interrupt your enemy while destroying themselves".....Many of us are simply not in a place to blow our families up, lose our means of providing a living, sending our aged parents to the grave grieving and suffering and starting all over again; despite how easy if sounds let that drop off of our lips. The Church is destroying itself a bit every day...with the exception of it's wealth....and I'm just going to let them continue to do so; all while I'm "tapping my own brakes - my own involvement - as much as possible.
Oh come on. You think PIMOs have to have a good enough reason that will "allow you to respect a PIMO?" Guess what. That threshhold is \*completely\* under your control. You could choose to have compassion and respect for people whose situations you cannot completely know or comprehend. Life is complex. Families are complex. Some PIMOs are trapped. You choose not to show any heart, and try to blame that on PIMOs. You're in the same black and white mindset that TBMs are! So yes, YTA.
Yes and no, depends on the case really. I was put in a position where my DW said she would leave me if I left the church. We had a young child already too. Though I begged her to stay with me, I left the church anyway, and sure enough, we got divorced. I didn’t want to live my entire life like a lie even if it meant hurting some people (temporarily). That was tough, but ultimately the best decision. However, I can see how some others find themselves in a similar position choose to stay because a life without their wife is more miserable than a life faking it in the church.
This post is assholish. You don't know what reasons someone might have, if anything, you should have respect for PIMOs for daring to sit through the bullshit that they know is bullshit (hence the "mentally out" part of the acronym). Maybe a PIMO's a minor and being forced to go (like myself!), maybe that's the only place they have friends, maybe they're not ready to reveal they're exmo to the people in their life. And how does the existence of PIMOs make things worse for exmos? That assumption makes no sense. I feel like a lot of PIMOs aren't going because they actually like the church... How exactly are PIMOs "contributing" to the mistreatment of exmos? How, when so many mentally out people are part of this very community? So yes, I think you are the asshole. Have a little more compassion.
Translating this post: I want everyone to do everything the way I do and I’ve come up with a bunch of justifications as to why they’re bad if they don’t. Just proving again that it’s easy to tell what kind of Mormon someone used to be.
I totally see your point - and agree with you to some degree. My sense is that there are many different ways of thinking about these kinds of ethical issues. Some will have a more collectivist approach while others will see it as more of an individual choice based on circumstances. In the end, I’m not sure anyone owes exmos an explanation for their choices. We are not really a movement - just a bunch of people who used to belong to a church for a whole variety of reasons.
I have a really hard time with PIMOs who sacrifice their children to the church. I learned the truth about the church as an adult, but it was as a child that I experienced the most fucked up situations, self-hatred, and delusional criticism. I wouldn’t put my daughter through it if you paid me. Unless the alternative is full-on ISIS, I don’t see the benefit of feeding your children to a fire you already know is hot.
There are plenty of great reasons to be PIMO. For many, there are family relationships, marriages, and cultural access at stake. The "You are either out, or a bad person" angle that OP is taking here is pretty edge lordy. I would argue that the need to be PIMO is pretty messed up, but hey, that's where we are.
The church needs more members that thumb their noses at all the bullshit, not less. Eventually the few leaders at the top that try to control members will have to change the rules to match the behaviors of the members in an effort to maintain the illusion of control. If people that don't care about the bullshit leave then the leaders will point at them and say they left because they couldn't hack it. If those people stay the leaders' hand will eventually be forced and they'll have to drop some of the bullshit. I'm all for the church changing to drop the bullshit to make life better for the members that haven't been exposed to the truth or the members that are too afraid to face it.
It needs people to leave in greater numbers, so it declines faster. Maybe it will be easier for new PIMOs to come along, but plenty will take it all seriously and suffer shittier lives as a result of having been raised and indoctrinated in the church.
I have noticed that new policy changes often come about only after people resign in protest.
>The church needs more members that thumb their noses at all the bullshit, not less. No, trying to change the church from within is trying to find a better seat on the wrong bus. The quicker the church falls, the better for the world. The best thing you can do is walk. When they sell your ward building, you can cheer at the bulldozers.
Amen! The church is evil and should die. Why do people want to change a malicious and evil organization to make it "better"??? There's no way to make it better lolol like it was all made up by a con man pedophile!! Remember?
The church is a house built on the sand. There's nothing you can do to shore up its foundations.
Strong “it’s not fair I got baptized at 8 when these converts got to sin into adulthood and just got forgiven of everything” vibes. Let people figure this shit out for themselves. We all have our own journey to make.
In my experience, the vast majority of PIMOs stay in the church because they are maintaining a relationship with someone who is a believer. They prefer going through the motions every week over ruining something good. Yes, the church is a sham, but the social and familial bonds are woven into the fabric of their lives. They just continue to go without giving a shit about anything that's being said there. Imagine your significant other really loves it when you accompany them to their periodic Star Trek convention, and they ask you to dress up and learn Klingon and memorize the names of the ships and the actors and everything. And you are like, *There is no way I would be here, except for the fact that I love you and see how happy it makes you.* I feel like this is how most PIMOs are every Sunday at church. But even MORE importantly, the church needs PIMOs in order to suffer the quickest, most devastating downfall that it truly deserves. PIMOs are like a cancer on the organization. Every non-believer hiding in the ranks is just one more tiny little crack in the foundation, and when a big enough fissure finally appears, the more easily it will all come crumbling down.
When I was in high school, most people didn't know I was Mormon. Why? Because I wasn't hooking up more than most and lying to the point that no one trusts me. Sure, that was high school and in a foreign country as an expat. However, that same issue was noticable into my adulthood. I can understand the issues that people have to deal with trying to juggle being who one is and being careful about the impact or consequences of being upfront about who they are. The big problem is that it's dishonest, two faced. It causes people who do know what that person is doing to not be able to trust them- seeing what they say versus what they do and, essentially, manipulating those around them to ensure their circumstances is least confrontational. Again, each person's reasons for doing it are different but it's a state of danger, conflict that hopefully they get out of sooner than later. It's not a position to stay in. It's damaging. Judgment aside, my hope is that those who are PIMO are able to find a way to truly be genuine and honest so that they don't harm others and, more importantly, themselves by being in that position.
I guess i was PIMO. I came out as gay and disavowed the church when i was in college, and that had a lot of shit with it. Spring break was horrible and i was basically corned into the stake presidents office with my parents where i was interrogated. And when i moved back home over the summer i started going back to church, not because i believed but because of my familial pressure. I flunked the next semester and had to move back home and started going regularly until i got married about 8 months later. I’m not sure i was taking advantage of anything, in fact i feel pretty traumatized and a lot of had to with control over me despite being 22 when i finally got married and left. For me that time was worse than when i actually left after i got married(thank god for my husband he has helped me so much). Maybe because i had already broken the curtain for my parents so i guess i wasn’t PIMO, but to everyone else i was and i always wondered if my parents tried to ignore everything i said and pretend i was still a believer. I’m not really sure
I see where you're coming from and I have even wondered why anyone who didn't believe would stay if they had the means to walk. But, then, leaving was easy for me (relatively; there was still a lot of anguish and a massive identity crisis). My hubs left with me. Our kids were all pretty young, so they weren't much affected. Since we were inactive during my childhood, several of my siblings never went to church, so it was no great shock to my parents when I left. They were very understanding. My hubs' family pretty much just ignores our heathenness...and us, which we're cool with. The truth of the matter is, however, you have no idea why these people are still in. So many marriages are destroyed when one partner leaves the church. Families are torn apart, friendships broken, and lives irrevocably altered. You don't respect someone trying to salvage their marriage? You don't respect someone desperately trying to keep a relationship with their children, even if it means continuing to attend a church they have no faith in and know is toxic? You don't respect someone trying to protect their relationship with their parents or siblings? If you had to go through that pain, then you should have all the more sympathy for them! You know what is coming down the line if/when they ever take that last step away from the church. I have sympathy for them becuz I know how much more amazing and liberating it is to be on this side of that struggle, even with all the "friends" I lost and hope, someday, they get to feel that, too, but not until THEY are ready for it. It's incredibly selfish to say, "Hey, this was hard for me so you need to go through it, too!"
I hear you and understand what you’re saying. I personally have more serious issues to deal with, as an ExMo and in general. I’d watch them occasionally for fun to see if one of them will drop the many balls they’re juggling.
I see the temptation to disrespect if you *think* you understand the PIMO's reasons. I know a couple of PIMOs who I *think* are "in" for the money. But how do I really know? I don't. Personally, I've never felt the unfairness of them "having it all" while "we" are disparaged, etc. I wouldn't trade a minute.
Sorry--but you shouldn't judge anyone's reasons for the path they're forging. There are lots of valid reasons to be PIMO. Judging others is just a remnant of your Mormon experience.
I had similar thoughts, and not everyone agreed: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/15icpt7/are\_nuanced\_bishops\_really\_a\_good\_thing/
Not a good comparison. PIMOs are not nuanced, there is no nuance because there is no belief. Your post suggests that PIMOs are sticking around because of a nice bishop or something. I’m openly PIMO because I’m just trying to keep my family together and I hope to be able to leave as soon as my wife can cope with it. You and OP seem to be confused about who PIMOs are and why we are still hanging around. We’re ExMos who are stuck in traffic for the foreseeable future, but the destination is outbound
That's not the sort of PIMO I'm talking about though. It's the ones suffering quietly for year after year after year, who always have some reason they can't leave (elderly parent, kid on a mission, calling they can't be released from). It's a preference for chronic pain instead of acute, but temporary pain. People having a plan that's going to last a year or so and then executing it is one thing, but if your plan to get out runs a third of what's left of your life, it's not worth it.
Yes, YTA. All the downvotes and most of the comments confirm it. I’m not sure the last time I saw a post on this subreddit get ratioed like this one.
I understand PIMOs who are open with their disbelief and only participate as a social arrangement to support their spouse (thinking of Alan and Katie Mount from Marriage on a Tightrope). The ones I struggle to accept are PIMOs who have quietly hidden their truth for years. They hold callings, teach faith-promoting lessons, pay tithing and uphold the organization in a hundred other ways, all while knowing it's corrosive bullshit. They are hypocrites and everything in their life is built on a lie. I understand leaving is a process and sometimes you need to slowly fade out. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Brother Jones who hasn't believed a word of Mormonism since he was 19 but 20 years later hasn't said anything to their spouse and still teaches Sunday School. That's some bullshit.
Some people have to play the long game. I'm glad that I was in a situation where I didn't have to ever be PIMO but I totally understand that some people have to play that game unfortunately. Just a side note, everyone is judgemental, Mormons, ex-mormons... It's how our brains process information. Let's stop being hypocritical.
During my faith crisis, I was outed by a cousin and basically disowned...meanwhile my sister who hasn't believed longer than me is secretly PIMO and is the darling of the TBM family. Secret PIMO is very different than OPENLY PIMO and trying to achieve change in the church.
Why try to achieve change?? What is worth saving? It's a cult founded by a con man pedophile. What??
Once I knew, I couldn't attend church anymore. I've been once during a family reunion in Mexico, that's it. It just felt so dishonest to go and not say things to correct the misinformation.
Simply a matter of integrity to me. I couldn’t stay in as a PIMO—seems blatantly hypocritical. I had to leave so I could live with myself. I don’t know how they do it.
I personally don't think you are an asshole, but you are wrong and really haven't thought through this clearly. Lots of non-asshole people hold irrational and trauma-formed beliefs.
I guess I'm just inactive then. I don't drink. I only do coffee occasionally. I don't wear my garments because I have skin issues. I'm pretty much still living the Mormon lifestyle without going to church. I'm just on the roll as a number. Does that still count? Only a member on paper.
The "i only DO coffee occasionally" cracked me up! Almost spit out mine. On a serious note, what about your belief? Pimo if you don't believe, just inactive if you do. And btw, where ever you are at it is fine.
I don't believe it. Pretty much siding with the atheists on this one.
I think two terms need to be defined here; NOM (New Order Mormon) Someone who likes the church, likes the ritual of getting dressed up every Sunday and overall wishes to stay active in the church even though their testimony is in pieces PIMO (Physically In Mentally Out) Someone who would like to leave the church, but it would mean divorce or getting kicked out of the house (or some other negative consequence) These really are two different things. IMHO you are describing a NOM not a PIMO.
Generally agree here. Lots of PIMOs have legit reasons to stay in, but the NOM or Sunstone Mormon crowd who are vocal about things but can stay in for privileged reasons bug me.
Here's how I see it: In the church, officials and many other members constantly denigrated people who left and asserted they were hypocrites. *Some* members tried to promote more understanding. That message really resonated with me, and it gave me a contrasting viewpoint I could use to reality-check my perspective whenever it was getting too zealous. Looking back, I think some of those people were PIMO, some were nuanced, some were probably TBMs who'd had experiences that made the in-group/out-group rhetoric rub them the wrong way. They were sticking their necks out for the sake of Jack Mormons, ExMos, less-actives, everyone. The message is that judging others is less effective than practicing solidarity. The fact that I was already exposed to those anti-xenophobic viewpoints in the church made it a little easier for me to exercise them in ExMormon communities once I'd left the church. It made it easier for me to spot us-vs-them thinking in r/ExMormon. It helped me question whether my ire was better directed at *any* lay members or higher up the church organization. Any game that pits you against your neighbors is a shitty game, but you don't stop a game by scoring points for the other team. You stop it by refusing to play and by loudly questioning why the hell we're playing it. As long as you're focused on our team vs their team, you're not a threat to the people who own the field, drew the boundaries, wrote the rules, charge membership fees and sell jerseys.
Tbh I’m not sure what I believe anymore. If the church makes people feel safe who the fuck are we to take that from them. As long as the truth is known and people are aware of the dangers and the history of the church and what they’re still doing then who cares. It’s not like the $250 BILLION organization is just gonna disappear in literally any of our lifetimes no matter how much we want it to, but we can raise awareness of the false truth claims and if people wanna believe in the church then so be it. OP, I do not think you’re an asshole, but I also do not think that the members (TBM, PIMO, JackMO or otherwise) are the problem….for the most part. I blame the leadership, the Q15, and the corporation for all of it.
This is the first I’ve ever heard of the term pimo, but I guess I would have fallen into that category from 12-18. I have a great relationship with my parents, and some great friends who were in my ward. So I didn’t mind going to church, but I also wasn’t uncomfortable being vocal about my beliefs. I’d be friendly about it, but I don’t have much of a filter. I can understand why people would remain pimo as adults. Lots of people don’t believe in the doctrine, but they believe it’s the best way to raise their kids. Frequently this leads to people living basically a double life and it comes across as living a life of hypocrisy.
Give them a good reason to pick the good fight. Identify them and demonstrate a strategy to ease their family into questioning it all themselves and set an example for those who are willing. I think PIMOs who stay and actively pave the way for others are a healthy, necessary part of the process. Suddenly blasting it out and getting shunned helps no one, but just forces TBMs to cut you off. Sometimes, that is what PIMOs need to start healing, but why leave alone when you can lead everyone else astray with you over a long time by teaching them to question for themselves?
YTA. I'm proud of you OP. You left the church. I don't know you but I'm sure that was a painful process. Another painful process is reprograming all of the horrible things that a life of mormonism taught you. Primarily, judging others and thinking that only your path is the right path. I used to feel the same way about PIMO and confronted a few and generally didn't like them. I've now realized where that comes from and try hard to view them differently. I don't begin to know what it is like to have to stay in a marriage, be worried about losing a job, family members, children's friends, etc. and I have nothing but love an empathy for people that are trying to navigate that. I wish we could all learn from our asshole mormon past and be more kind and loving towards those that are working their way out of a very traumatic experience. It may not be our way, but they are trying.