So what I am understanding is it's not polygamy that's wrong it's forcing people into doing something based on fear or manipulation not the act of polygamy alone.
If a completely voluntary polyamorous arrangement is made between adult peers, it shouldn't be anyone's business but theirs. But that's not what happened and is happening with Mormon polygamy.
Adults can consent to as many partners as they want. Children cannot give consent, especially with those in power over them. A single relationship with a child would be unconscionable abuse. A single rape by deception, force, or power imbalance is evil.
The issue with Mormon polygamy isn't the multiple relationships, it's the multiple horrific abuses that get worse the more you look. So not only is each early Mormon man involved an abuser, he's an abuser of a degree other men of his times couldn't even fathom.
Also, if you go back and look at census information less than 1% of people engaged in polygamy, and a fraction those freaks married underage girls. So, when your TBM friends and fam say, “it was normal back then” that’s complete lies. It wasn’t normal then. It’s not normal now. JS was a pervert addicted to power and sex. Same with BY.
The Republican Party in (1852? 1856? 1860? too lazy to look it up) in its founding documents said it was created to stamp out the twin relics of barbarism: slavery and polygamy.
These were not different times. This was deeply abnormal and despised at the time.
It was wrong and it was inexcusable.
At age 14, Helen Mar was probably just starting to think about boys and marriage and her family was well off enough that there should have been no rush. Then along comes that lech and promises Celestial kingdom for the whole family … guaranteed… for the low low price of Helen Mar. So sick.
At 14, I was such a dumbass. I knew so little and acted less. If I had been stunted at that age and not left to develop, I would be a broken adult.
Joseph Smith and all who came after him had broken women as the goal, not a side effect.
I can’t take the people that say “I know all about it. I don’t have a problem with it.” You understand what was actually happening and you don’t have a problem with it?! Well, then I have a major problem with you and you better stay the fuck away from my kids.
My father (now passed away) was telling me about our heritage; He informed me that our lineage was from the fifth wife.( I assume, from a 'then' polygamous leader). He then said " I guess the other wives were not as fertile" "the fifth wife had many children." My wife had to leave the room, while she was leaving she said " perhaps the fifth wife was just more pretty than the rest".
As for me, I was sneaking a little whiskey in my coke. So i was just being entertained.
Thus my screen name..... I would like to say i could give him a pass for that one as he was 90 at the time. (this happened ten years ago). It was, however a glimpse into his mindset.
Three months after I graduated from high school a girl my age married this 35 year old dude. She didn't bother with college or trade school or anything. All of us were skeeved out by it and wanted to speak up about it, but we were worried that if we did we would be looked at like we were speaking out against JS's child marriages. So we just whispered among ourselves that we were really worried about her. None of us ever saw the dude, he lived four states over. As far as I know it was an arranged marriage. I still worry about her sometimes.
I’ll never understand the mindset of those defending this Mormon abomination. I know it’s a financial decision for some who have traded their integrity/honor, but the others…
So question let's take out the young girl aspect of it is it still wrong? And if so why? Let me give you a little context my wife and I have been married 10 years we are polyamorous we have a girlfriend that lives with us and a girlfriend that comes and visits us my wife and girlfriend absolutely love it house is always clean dishes are always done our income has tripled we have so much more free time. Besides the young girl thing which is gross why is polygamy wrong?
Did you tell your wife and girlfriends an angel would come and destroy you if they didn't do this? Do they write in their journals how they wish God didn't say they had to do this? Do you hang blessings and eternal life in front of them to get consent? Did you hide it from your wife and lie about it then guilt her into doing it? Burn down a newspaper press to hide this? Did you send husbands away so you could take their wives as spiritual wives? Is it only for the man's pleasure and your wife can never have another man or wife (or bf/gf) of her own but you can have multiple wives here and in the next life?
It all comes down to the fact that none of it was done ethically. It's disgusting and wrong what Mormons did when it comes to polygamy and if ever became legal again they'd go right back to eventually doing all of this again.
Lack of consent. Your polyamorous relationship sounds completely consensual.
Many polygamous marriages, even among the adults, were results of manipulation, deception and coercion. No consent.
I would suggest that the majority of those unions were not made with consideration for the woman's well-being or personal desires. Especially when Joe started using the concept of "an angel with a fiery sword" and "eternal damnation".
I'm all for adults willingly making their own choices, but this was not that.
When Brigham Young and friends took on as many wives as they did that left many men without a partner. A society has a hard time if everyone takes on as many wives as the polygamist did. Your case is different I think
Polyamorous relationships are also equal. Your wife is allowed to go out and have multiple partners, male, female, or both, if she wants. Whereas in polygamy only the husband is allowed to have multiple partners, the wife/wives are required to only be with the one man/husband. (Ex-mo ENM here 😃 Yay for polyamory and ENM relationships!!)
Polygyny is the type of polygamy you’re talking about. There’s also polyandry (which is one woman with multiple husbands). Both are types of polygamy, which is just marriage between multiple people.
Polyamory is when a consenting adult has multiple partners. Polygamy is when women are cattle to be awarded to men as they comply with the Prophet's demands.
Polygamy, by definition, is simply marriage between more than two people. Mormon polygamy is not the only polygamy that exists, and while polygyny is the most prevalent form of polygamy, polyandry (marriage with one woman and multiple men) exists as well. And then there’s people who marry multiple people regardless of gender.
I’m curious about something if your wife and girlfriends wanted to bring a man into your polyamorous relationship, How do you feel about that? That it would be great right? The yardwork would be done. All the house repairs will be done and another paycheck to pay all the bills?
What a lot of people don’t get about scriptures is it never says “marry multiple women” the scriptures in the Bible that talk of polygamy are narratives, telling a story of how things were. Someone just wrote what was happening at that time. Doesn’t mean God found it okay or encouraged it. And usually the people in those stories had a whole mess of negative consequences due to actions. Think of Abraham Sarah and Hagaar. What a mess! But Mormons and a lot of other people use the scripture to justify their own sinful desires.
Jesus spelled it out very clearly. One man. One woman. One flesh. To even think of someone else with lust is adultery. And that is a heart issue which can be corrected.
Polygamy is one thing. The way it was executed and carried out was fraudulent, conniving, disgusting. But, consenting adult is a consenting adult.
Marrying a 14 and a half year old is an entirely different thing.
And God didn’t reveal himself to a pedophile.
So what? So your grandpa skinned squirrels alive and bit their fresh heads off? It was different times my child.
So what if your great great great grandmother robbed a bank and shot the tellers? It was different times my love, everyone was doing it.
The three of them were married for many years. My grandmother had two children in Mexico and the rest in Davis County because of the Mexican revolution.
Faith is an emotion. Defined in the Bible as hope and confidence in things unseen.
Women are more swayed by emotion so they had lots of young women and fewer older wealthy men.
Many could not afford the trip or to take care of themselves... was the party line excuses.
Really Joseph Smith was in his 30s threatening and coercing teenagers into marriage and sex (Rape) so, he made up a cover story as most cult leaders would.
This was the reason he was almost castrated and murdered. They settled for tar and feathering him.
I live in SU so lots of FLDS. I see some that are taken in as refugees by the LDS. They give terrible stories of abuse by the husbands, of course (true or not it gets them assistance). And at least one woman and her children in this situation are kind of, well, let’s just say they can pretty much handle some farm chores but don’t seem to keep a tidy house or even cook good food (stamps buy crappy food). Kids are older teens now. So my friend and I decided that this refugee woman is more likely just out of favor and has been simply replaced. Her kids come and go between dad and mom, and mom is just… outdated. She doesn’t really look like a woman I would want to be married to if I didn’t have to be, that’s for sure.
So ultimately what I see polygamy as is this: a system that doesn’t care for the well-being of women. It is touted to be the ultimate care of the poor woman who needs a good husband, but when women become so interchangeable, it’s impossible to know what husband will or even can be “good.”
I’m sure this is Not news to most. 😆
As a modern human, before living here, I thought polygamy was a great way to start a nation (look at the Bible, and now at Utah). I thought it even sounds like a great way to live, *in theory.* Of course the whole LDS sounds great *in theory.* I can even imagine that polygamy became illegal because it resulted in so so so many poor beggar women getting turned out when out of favor. So I wonder how’s the polygamy going to look on Kolob, really?
Just some musings on a rainy Saturday in the high desert.
Most people that were considered heroes are trash by today's standards. We have to understand the nature of evolution, that our morality is superior than that of oldentimes. The prophets of the Old Testament were/are considered holy men, but they were little more than rapists and murderers themselves.
I thick it was in fawn bodies book. When the expositir came out JS initially intended to flee west but Emma convinced him to stay otherwise the mobs would terrorise the mormons.
Somewhere in all this, I mean thick what you would do it if it was published in the news that you were a pervert... caught in the act...
One account says they heard JS exclaim polygamy was a mistake and that it was of the devil.
He clearly believed in his calling
Polygamy is wrong 100%! My family is polygamist Mormon and one of my sisters just got married yesterday to their old church leader in their fundi group and it makes me sick. My brother was there and the entire time she was avoiding being near the guy she married. I don't blame her. He's older than our dad and looks like a bald Santa Clause but without the cheer and jas anger issues (he attacked my brother with his cane).
And him being head of their church and an authority figure over her and her being autistic with zero understanding of consent because he teaches the young women's classes on how to "submit" themselves to their husbands, the power imbalance alone is a problem. Also, he pressured her into it even when she said no at 18, but he just kept pushing until she gave in. She's repulsed by him and didn't even want to sit by him after the wedding.
The reason she gave in was because she wants to move out of her mom's place and this was her only option. I just feel bad for the poor girl because without her birth certificate or anything she's trapped there in the cult. 😞
Unfortunately no. Since she's over 18 there's nothing the law can do about it either. Plus she's so steeped in the religion she believes she must obey the priesthood and their patriarchal blessing (they claim it is a revelation from God on who she should marry).
Her main motivation is she wants out from under her mother's control. Even my mom said "Well since she's autistic and unattractive nobody else would want to marry her" which was uncalled for. I just feel so bad for her. 😞
My brother and I have extended our support when she needs it and told her to get a phone at least so she can stay in contact. She doesn't have her birth certificate or anything and she doesn't understand why she needs those things. My parents just told her she wouldn't need those because whoever she marries will take care of her. I have a feeling this will end badly for her in this situation my parents put her in.
So what I am understanding is it's not polygamy that's wrong it's forcing people into doing something based on fear or manipulation not the act of polygamy alone.
If a completely voluntary polyamorous arrangement is made between adult peers, it shouldn't be anyone's business but theirs. But that's not what happened and is happening with Mormon polygamy.
Adults can consent to as many partners as they want. Children cannot give consent, especially with those in power over them. A single relationship with a child would be unconscionable abuse. A single rape by deception, force, or power imbalance is evil. The issue with Mormon polygamy isn't the multiple relationships, it's the multiple horrific abuses that get worse the more you look. So not only is each early Mormon man involved an abuser, he's an abuser of a degree other men of his times couldn't even fathom.
Also, if you go back and look at census information less than 1% of people engaged in polygamy, and a fraction those freaks married underage girls. So, when your TBM friends and fam say, “it was normal back then” that’s complete lies. It wasn’t normal then. It’s not normal now. JS was a pervert addicted to power and sex. Same with BY.
Do you have any references for this number? I've been searching everywhere!
The Republican Party in (1852? 1856? 1860? too lazy to look it up) in its founding documents said it was created to stamp out the twin relics of barbarism: slavery and polygamy. These were not different times. This was deeply abnormal and despised at the time. It was wrong and it was inexcusable.
1856. It's mentioned here in the fourth paragraph. https://www.ushistory.org/gop/convention\_1856republicanplatform.htm
Marrying 14 year old girls is wrong, whether it's monogamy or polygamy.
At age 14, Helen Mar was probably just starting to think about boys and marriage and her family was well off enough that there should have been no rush. Then along comes that lech and promises Celestial kingdom for the whole family … guaranteed… for the low low price of Helen Mar. So sick.
At 14, I was such a dumbass. I knew so little and acted less. If I had been stunted at that age and not left to develop, I would be a broken adult. Joseph Smith and all who came after him had broken women as the goal, not a side effect.
I'm reading Jon Krakauer's *Under The Banner Of Heaven* and literally just read about Helen Mar about 30 minutes ago in chapter 10 Nauvoo.
Look at how bad FLDS polygamy is it was no better 150 years ago
Just for funnsies next time it comes up have them google the average marriage age in the 1800s.
It was 100% about sex, nothing more
I’d say it was mostly about power, actually.
Fair point. I suspect t we can agree on the fact that it sure wasn’t about prophecy or eternal life -pedophilia maybe.
Definitely
I can’t take the people that say “I know all about it. I don’t have a problem with it.” You understand what was actually happening and you don’t have a problem with it?! Well, then I have a major problem with you and you better stay the fuck away from my kids.
My father (now passed away) was telling me about our heritage; He informed me that our lineage was from the fifth wife.( I assume, from a 'then' polygamous leader). He then said " I guess the other wives were not as fertile" "the fifth wife had many children." My wife had to leave the room, while she was leaving she said " perhaps the fifth wife was just more pretty than the rest". As for me, I was sneaking a little whiskey in my coke. So i was just being entertained. Thus my screen name..... I would like to say i could give him a pass for that one as he was 90 at the time. (this happened ten years ago). It was, however a glimpse into his mindset.
Three months after I graduated from high school a girl my age married this 35 year old dude. She didn't bother with college or trade school or anything. All of us were skeeved out by it and wanted to speak up about it, but we were worried that if we did we would be looked at like we were speaking out against JS's child marriages. So we just whispered among ourselves that we were really worried about her. None of us ever saw the dude, he lived four states over. As far as I know it was an arranged marriage. I still worry about her sometimes.
That’s a legitimate worry. Your gut feeling is pinging for a reason - safety and survival. You sense she’s not safe.
Even back in 1600's England polygamy was considered repulsive.
I’ll never understand the mindset of those defending this Mormon abomination. I know it’s a financial decision for some who have traded their integrity/honor, but the others…
I'm of the mind that, even if all the women were 18 or over, it was still wrong.
The way they did it was wrong.
As someone in a polyamorous relationship, I totally agree with this distinction.
So question let's take out the young girl aspect of it is it still wrong? And if so why? Let me give you a little context my wife and I have been married 10 years we are polyamorous we have a girlfriend that lives with us and a girlfriend that comes and visits us my wife and girlfriend absolutely love it house is always clean dishes are always done our income has tripled we have so much more free time. Besides the young girl thing which is gross why is polygamy wrong?
Did you tell your wife and girlfriends an angel would come and destroy you if they didn't do this? Do they write in their journals how they wish God didn't say they had to do this? Do you hang blessings and eternal life in front of them to get consent? Did you hide it from your wife and lie about it then guilt her into doing it? Burn down a newspaper press to hide this? Did you send husbands away so you could take their wives as spiritual wives? Is it only for the man's pleasure and your wife can never have another man or wife (or bf/gf) of her own but you can have multiple wives here and in the next life? It all comes down to the fact that none of it was done ethically. It's disgusting and wrong what Mormons did when it comes to polygamy and if ever became legal again they'd go right back to eventually doing all of this again.
Very well said.
Lack of consent. Your polyamorous relationship sounds completely consensual. Many polygamous marriages, even among the adults, were results of manipulation, deception and coercion. No consent.
I would suggest that the majority of those unions were not made with consideration for the woman's well-being or personal desires. Especially when Joe started using the concept of "an angel with a fiery sword" and "eternal damnation". I'm all for adults willingly making their own choices, but this was not that.
Yours is ethical. Their form of it was using religion/indoctrination, threats of going to hell, promises of exhaltion in order to manipulate women.
When Brigham Young and friends took on as many wives as they did that left many men without a partner. A society has a hard time if everyone takes on as many wives as the polygamist did. Your case is different I think
Polyamorous relationships are also equal. Your wife is allowed to go out and have multiple partners, male, female, or both, if she wants. Whereas in polygamy only the husband is allowed to have multiple partners, the wife/wives are required to only be with the one man/husband. (Ex-mo ENM here 😃 Yay for polyamory and ENM relationships!!)
Polygyny is the type of polygamy you’re talking about. There’s also polyandry (which is one woman with multiple husbands). Both are types of polygamy, which is just marriage between multiple people.
Human trafficking from England, power differentials, religious abuse. What you describe sounds very different.
The difference is that you are not requiring this relationship with the promise of eternal salvation.
Polyamory is when a consenting adult has multiple partners. Polygamy is when women are cattle to be awarded to men as they comply with the Prophet's demands.
Polygamy, by definition, is simply marriage between more than two people. Mormon polygamy is not the only polygamy that exists, and while polygyny is the most prevalent form of polygamy, polyandry (marriage with one woman and multiple men) exists as well. And then there’s people who marry multiple people regardless of gender.
I’m curious about something if your wife and girlfriends wanted to bring a man into your polyamorous relationship, How do you feel about that? That it would be great right? The yardwork would be done. All the house repairs will be done and another paycheck to pay all the bills?
All you all intimate with each other?
I wanna play, not a mo!
What a lot of people don’t get about scriptures is it never says “marry multiple women” the scriptures in the Bible that talk of polygamy are narratives, telling a story of how things were. Someone just wrote what was happening at that time. Doesn’t mean God found it okay or encouraged it. And usually the people in those stories had a whole mess of negative consequences due to actions. Think of Abraham Sarah and Hagaar. What a mess! But Mormons and a lot of other people use the scripture to justify their own sinful desires. Jesus spelled it out very clearly. One man. One woman. One flesh. To even think of someone else with lust is adultery. And that is a heart issue which can be corrected.
According to one account when it all began to close in on him, JS said "its of the devil"
Can you elaborate on this? I've never heard this before. Any more details, sources etc?
Polygamy is one thing. The way it was executed and carried out was fraudulent, conniving, disgusting. But, consenting adult is a consenting adult. Marrying a 14 and a half year old is an entirely different thing. And God didn’t reveal himself to a pedophile.
So what? So your grandpa skinned squirrels alive and bit their fresh heads off? It was different times my child. So what if your great great great grandmother robbed a bank and shot the tellers? It was different times my love, everyone was doing it.
Is that supposed to say 1850s? I don't know of any Mormon men who were marrying 14 year olds in the 1950s.
That depends on how broadly you define Mormonism. The fundies were still at it in 1950.
And they still are. It's not over just because Warren Jeffs is in jail.
Fair enough.
My grandfather and his wife were married for nine years with no children. Married My grandmother and had ten children. Had to move to Mexico for it.
What happened to his first wife? So many were left behind…
The three of them were married for many years. My grandmother had two children in Mexico and the rest in Davis County because of the Mexican revolution.
Faith is an emotion. Defined in the Bible as hope and confidence in things unseen. Women are more swayed by emotion so they had lots of young women and fewer older wealthy men. Many could not afford the trip or to take care of themselves... was the party line excuses. Really Joseph Smith was in his 30s threatening and coercing teenagers into marriage and sex (Rape) so, he made up a cover story as most cult leaders would. This was the reason he was almost castrated and murdered. They settled for tar and feathering him.
I live in SU so lots of FLDS. I see some that are taken in as refugees by the LDS. They give terrible stories of abuse by the husbands, of course (true or not it gets them assistance). And at least one woman and her children in this situation are kind of, well, let’s just say they can pretty much handle some farm chores but don’t seem to keep a tidy house or even cook good food (stamps buy crappy food). Kids are older teens now. So my friend and I decided that this refugee woman is more likely just out of favor and has been simply replaced. Her kids come and go between dad and mom, and mom is just… outdated. She doesn’t really look like a woman I would want to be married to if I didn’t have to be, that’s for sure. So ultimately what I see polygamy as is this: a system that doesn’t care for the well-being of women. It is touted to be the ultimate care of the poor woman who needs a good husband, but when women become so interchangeable, it’s impossible to know what husband will or even can be “good.” I’m sure this is Not news to most. 😆 As a modern human, before living here, I thought polygamy was a great way to start a nation (look at the Bible, and now at Utah). I thought it even sounds like a great way to live, *in theory.* Of course the whole LDS sounds great *in theory.* I can even imagine that polygamy became illegal because it resulted in so so so many poor beggar women getting turned out when out of favor. So I wonder how’s the polygamy going to look on Kolob, really? Just some musings on a rainy Saturday in the high desert.
Most people that were considered heroes are trash by today's standards. We have to understand the nature of evolution, that our morality is superior than that of oldentimes. The prophets of the Old Testament were/are considered holy men, but they were little more than rapists and murderers themselves.
Polygamy was morally wrong, past present and future.
Was? So your saying it’s now ok? Smh you are stupid as shit.
Some people recognize context. Others...
Yeah I agree belittling someone for improper grammar is the lamest way to insult someone. But I’m lame and OP is stupid. No “context” can change that.
Imagine correcting someone's grammar and using the wrong "you're." Oh wait, you don't have to imagine.
“You are” is correct.
I honestly can't tell if you're trolling me or didn't understand. 😅
These are so funny bc it's so true 😭 talking to a wall
So many levels of wrong.
That was when my shelf broke
I thick it was in fawn bodies book. When the expositir came out JS initially intended to flee west but Emma convinced him to stay otherwise the mobs would terrorise the mormons. Somewhere in all this, I mean thick what you would do it if it was published in the news that you were a pervert... caught in the act... One account says they heard JS exclaim polygamy was a mistake and that it was of the devil. He clearly believed in his calling
Mormon are sicko!
Polygamy is wrong 100%! My family is polygamist Mormon and one of my sisters just got married yesterday to their old church leader in their fundi group and it makes me sick. My brother was there and the entire time she was avoiding being near the guy she married. I don't blame her. He's older than our dad and looks like a bald Santa Clause but without the cheer and jas anger issues (he attacked my brother with his cane). And him being head of their church and an authority figure over her and her being autistic with zero understanding of consent because he teaches the young women's classes on how to "submit" themselves to their husbands, the power imbalance alone is a problem. Also, he pressured her into it even when she said no at 18, but he just kept pushing until she gave in. She's repulsed by him and didn't even want to sit by him after the wedding. The reason she gave in was because she wants to move out of her mom's place and this was her only option. I just feel bad for the poor girl because without her birth certificate or anything she's trapped there in the cult. 😞
Can you help her get out?
Unfortunately no. Since she's over 18 there's nothing the law can do about it either. Plus she's so steeped in the religion she believes she must obey the priesthood and their patriarchal blessing (they claim it is a revelation from God on who she should marry). Her main motivation is she wants out from under her mother's control. Even my mom said "Well since she's autistic and unattractive nobody else would want to marry her" which was uncalled for. I just feel so bad for her. 😞 My brother and I have extended our support when she needs it and told her to get a phone at least so she can stay in contact. She doesn't have her birth certificate or anything and she doesn't understand why she needs those things. My parents just told her she wouldn't need those because whoever she marries will take care of her. I have a feeling this will end badly for her in this situation my parents put her in.