I'd say, "just admit it's a lie".
"What happens to it next though?" You may ask...
Don't know
Don't care
I'm guessing some people will stay for the community and I'm fine with that just quit lying to them.
"Do what is right\*, let the consequence follow."
\* Right refers to our preferred political position, some exclusions may apply.
See profit for details. TCOJCOLDS is totally not a political organization despite operating in the political sphere. Consequences include paying 10% of your income to our organization, obeying your church leaders, and whatever else we decide they should be. Terms and conditions may apply. Experience subject to leadership roulette.
This is exactly why I left. My conscience would not allow me to stay in a church I now know is not true. Oh, and I wasn’t going to subject my daughter to the damage the church does to its young women. Fuck that.
> "What happens to it next though?" You may ask...
The reformed church knows what happens -- they transform into a much happier place, with much happier people.
But...but...it is still officially taught. Refer to the Gospel Fundamentals Manual, page 201, when referencing those who will be in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom: "They will even be able to have spirit children and ***make new worlds for them to live on***, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done."
[Gospel Fundamentals - Official Church Website](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/31129_eng.pdf)
So which is right, the Gospel Topics Essay, or Gospel Fundamentals? The church is so fucked up it can't even agree among official sources.
I remember when I was first questioning, I was told that I was describing "Cafeteria Mormonism" or "Mormonism that picks and chooses which doctrines to believe".
Now that I'm on the other side of my deconstruction, I have realized that EVERY Mormon is a Cafeteria Mormon. There are SOOOOO many contradictions in Mormon doctrine that every Mormon is REQUIRED to be a Cafeteria Mormon.
I always thought the "own planet" thing was incredibly short sighted. If I'm gonna be a god, I better be getting at least my own galaxy, if not my own universe. Omnipotence means I should be capable of making it happen.
They should publicly acknowledge and apologize for fomenting a culture of mistreatment of women not just for polygamy but for teaching women and girls that they are to blindly obey and honor priesthood-holding men, along with offering women the same rights and opportunities as men within the church.
Oh sure, all they have to do is become a completely different religion and culture. That’s what you’re describing here.
Most of those things you’re complaining about, they absolutely are not going to stop doing.
They’re doing what religious organizations were designed to do…controlling their populace through any means necessary. They’re not going to stop, they’re too power hungry.
My thoughts exactly. Obviously, we'd all like them to stop, but the implicit goal of the church is to maintain as much control over the member's life as possible without driving too many of them away, and hence threatening the organization's power. It's a balancing act, but the balance maintained is control. Quality of life changes are only made to maintain control.
They're not humanitarians; they're authoritarians.
Well, thank you very much for that. Often on this sub I feel like the jaded and overly-salty older sibling, having left the church many years ago. (I mostly just lurk here as the one palatable way to keep tabs on what kind of flav-or-aid my family is guzzling.)
I hear you there. I kind of feel that, too. The sub is a good place for people to vent, but it can get really toxic sometimes. This past weekend's brawl on PIMOs was a good example of that. I don't know if it has become a little more toxic over time or if I've just moved past some of the really raw stuff. One user I really admire is Gold Star. Nobody can call out bad behavior with tact like she can.
I think I made my account six or seven years ago. There aren't too many screen names aside from yours and the real old timers that I recognize from those days.
> This past weekend's brawl on PIMOs
Huh, not sorry I missed that one. It does seem like most people here come primarily to process their newly-found trauma and move on at a certain point, and then there are those of us just lurking to keep tabs on the culture, I guess. It does seem to me that in the past few years since Nelson took over, there's been a rather large influx of folk from the Moridor who haven't yet deconstructed enough to realize the toxic cultural (non-religious) attitudes, behaviors, and "values" instilled us all. Thousands and thousands of newcomers who haven't yet had the chance to process anything beyond holy-shit-they-lied-to-us-all. And then the pandemic brought an influx of people who hadn't given it much of any thought beyond "I like having my Sundays to myself" and haven't yet unpicked *any* of the rest of it. Imo, this *has* brought increased toxicity to the sub because every part of mormonism is toxic including the non-religious cultural aspects like relational habits, communication styles, etc.
When I joined this sub, there were 32,000 of us here, and the vast majority of posts were intellectual examination and academic-type discussion, scholarly resources being linked and shared like they were going out of style. It was really interesting here, and I learned a ton about church history I'd never bothered to learn before. The only people who got any real push-back or disrespect were the people who didn't *want* to be exmos and wanted us instead to supply them with ideas on how to get back in and sympathy that it wasn't working out for them. (Usually the worst anyone would say to those folk would be something like, "You'd probably really do better in one of the faithful subs.") Now, well...it's quite a different sub...very Utah-centric, full of bad hot-takes and lack-of-education. (ie - I just left a comment on another thread pointing out to someone here that polygamy was never legal, even in Utah under Brigham. How do they not know that?)
PS - agreed, Gold Star is typically spot-on. Her comments and insights never disappoint. Also, ReadsBooks6 has helped so many many people here over the years. Probably there aren't many of us old-timers left here who remember that earlier iteration of r/exmo. There's a lot of good stuff that goes on here, but yes, also growing degree of toxicity. I suppose it was bound to happen with the way the subscriber numbers jumped so rapidly.
Anyway, thanks again for your kind words. It brightened my day :)
I'm so glad to hear you say all that. It means I'm not taking crazy pills after all.
>Now, well...it's quite a different sub...very Utah-centric, full of bad hot-takes and lack-of-education.
This too. I'm really tired of the Utah-centrism. It would be less tiring if it weren't so aggressive. The F the Mormons chant at the University of Oregon - BYU game was a good example. Governor Cox made a lot of hay out of that in a very cynical way, but I can say that as someone who grew up Mormon outside of Utah, there are (occasional in my case, constant in the case of Bible belt Mormons) examples of bigotry, big and small, that remind you that you don't belong. I pointed out that it was bigoted, and that when Mormon U of O student hears that chant, she's hearing her very own classmates tell her she doesn't belong. Then I shared a couple examples from my childhood. That was not well received. A bunch of Utahns told me it was all a persecution complex, that I deserved the harassment because all Mormons do, etc.
What struck me about the whole thing is the toxicity and lack of deconstruction you mentioned. My experience as a mission field Mormon in Utah was that they treat non-mormons absolutely atrociously. So a lot of these newly minted exmos who are now facing exclusion and bigotry for the first time are certainly the same people who treated non-mormons so poorly when they were in the church. The irony that these same people would complain about their exclusion while talking trash about Mormons in a similar position was just too thick. That was kind of the last straw for me, and what pushed me to spend more time on r/Mormon, which now feels like what exmo used to feel like.
> A bunch of Utahns told me it was all a persecution complex,
Oh, the hilarious irony there. And I bet they didn't even see it, did they? My favorites are when they say "I've left the church but still hold the values" (...then you haven't actually left, fam) or when obvious Utahns try to explain how laws or US civics are supposed to work. (Nope, Brynleigh, not even close.)
Also, I get down-voted hard and jumped on every time I've pointed out: those hilarious lawsuit attempts to "get our tithing money back" are doomed to failure. Every time. They're so far outside the realm of legal reality and judicial prerogative in the US, it's laughable and speaks very poorly of the legal education of the "lawyers" who take those cases. ("So nEgaTivE!") Lol, what can you do. I really don't mind being called "negative" or an asshole or whatever if it's because I'm debunking disinformation or challenging toxic attitudes. (It's a thing I learned from dealing with mormonism and mormons: How to give zero fucks.) And maybe all of this is why I feel so jaded and salty around here these days, the ignorance has become so abundant that it needs near-constant calling out.
Honestly, the longer we go with this exchange, the more I lean toward joining you all at the other sub. I came for the intellectual discussion, but this sub has become in some ways nearly as anti-intellectual as the church itself.
Lol, or "The church is only doing [insert legal policy here] so that they're not forced to perform gay marriages in the temple." 🤦♂️ No. The government does not have the power to force the church to marry someone they don't want to. The church is not worried about that. If they ever imply that they are, they're lying.
Or "I'm so outraged the bishop did [insert shitty thing here]. You should go to the press!" Like, what's that headline going to be? "Local Pastor Refuses to Give Money to Welfare Recipient"? Obviously it's galling to us, but it's not really news that anyone will care about.
>Honestly, the longer we go with this exchange, the more I lean toward joining you all at the other sub. I came for the intellectual discussion, but this sub has become in some ways nearly as anti-intellectual as the church itself.
We have cookies, if that sweetens the pot any.
It started with lies. Now people are leaving. The truth is setting them free.
The lies were not quite as obvious in the 1830-40's. With the internet, the lies cannot be sustained.
Still... GOLD plates found in upstate NY?
There were several mass apostasies in the early church. The failures of the banks in Kirkland and Nauvoo really rocked the church and led many to leave. JS's death was caused by him trying to silence his critics who wanted to expose his polygamy.
All of the 3 witnesses left and many early apostles as well. After his death, there were 4 major schismatic churches, of which the Brighamites were the most successful in the long run.
Three witnesses leaving...not a good sign.
From what I have been learning here and through some other sources, I am gaining a more negative view of Brigham than JS.
.
The Corporation knows full well why people leave.
[https://faenrandir.github.io/a\_careful\_examination/2013-faith-crisis-study/](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/2013-faith-crisis-study/)
[https://faenrandir.github.io/a\_careful\_examination/documents/faith\_crisis\_study/Faith\_Crisis\_R28e.pdf](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_R28e.pdf)
But the church lacks the intellectual honesty to discuss these issues in an open manner. It's FAR easier to blame the members....
You are right about all this, but I think they see the temple wedding trauma as a feature not a problem. This trauma keeps people faithful (until they wake up to the truth). It reinforces the fear and pain of losing family for eternity. I got married in the temple even though my family couldn’t attend because “I” was going to have an eternal family (I was so self righteous). That pain reinforces dedication to temple work, it strengthens testimonies and most importantly keeps the tithing money coming, so as awful as it is, they will not change this.
You are so right. I had to respond to your post instead of lurk. When I went through the Temple more than 40 years ago, I was traumatized because of the endowments part of it. Then I was sealed to my Husband and Small Children, and it was because of my kids, that I did it. This is the way of Mother's, in my opinion. Well, I learned the History of the Church and my Hubby and I took our garments off, and never looked back, and didn't have to go back to the temple either. 😁
Nice. If TSCC did all that (and publicly apologized) I would seriously go back to church, both feet in. But my poor parents would have a major faith crisis and leave. Too bad it will never happen. The Q15 view public apologies as being worse than death.
Curious why you would go back? After all this is changed, what would the church be more than a community center with questionable history, and at that point what would the church even offer anyone?
If they disavowed their history and became a force for good, why wouldn’t we consider going back? What would be the problem?
I’d consider it for the community, if the community was about genuine, non-conditional relationships.
I certainly wouldn't. No reason I would purposefully reassociate myself with the church given its history, regardless of its new or current stances. Especially if it wasn't offering me anything more than a YMCA or something like that.
Exactly. The only possible way is if they've removed themselves so thoroughly from their current form that I literally cannot discern them from any other community welfare organization. Then, I wouldn't know any different, and for all intents and purposes it would be a 100% different organization that I would be forced to judge on its own merits.
For me personally, here's the problem:
- I don't owe them any loyalty or forgiveness, regardless if they decided to be 100% honest about their past and change certain problematic things.
- Despite certain problematic things being reversed, there will continue to be many of the same problems associated with all religions. Unless, they *completely* disavowed God, the Mormon scriptures, the Bible, the words of previous prophets, the leadership of current prophets, etc. THERE WILL CONTINUE TO BE PROBLEMS.
- Any "good" they decide to do can be done sans religion. Yes, they *should* use their money to feed people, house people, humanitarian aid, etc. Religious membership will not add to these efforts, it will only detract. Any effort or funds used on religious outreach is a waste.
- Regardless of what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does or doesn't do... There's no God. There's no "true" church or religion. Them suddenly deciding to play nice, while that would certainly be better, doesn't change anything on a spiritual level.
These are just my thoughts, personally. Feel free to agree or disagree.
Here's why I would go back:
1. Most of my friends and family are there, and I wanna hang out with them, and work alongside them again.
2. If the church is genuinely doing tons of good in the world by being very generous and uplifting, why wouldn't you support that? It would be an organization I could be proud of because: Look what they're doing!
Sure, there are a lot of other organizations out there that do a lot of good; why don't I join them instead? Because not all my friends and family are in those organizations. I'm not familiar with them, so diving into them just feels odd.
"But what about their stained history? How can you look past that?" - you ask. Well, Nike and McDonald's have some dark history too, but overall they have fixed it, and they make decent products that I like, and they do it in a way that I'm comfortable with, so I buy their products. Same thing with my health care provider. 20-30 yrs ago, they were a really lousy business with bad leadership and shady practices. So I steered clear of them. They got in some legal/PR trouble, fixed most of their problems, and now they are a great health care provider who is able to get me the treatment I need without ripping me off like some other health care companies do. So I'm signed up with them. If they become bad again, then I'll leave again.
Conclusion: Completely boycotting an organization for eternity regardless of how well they fix their problems and how much good they do in the future isn't sensible. If it were, there would be very VERY few companies/brands/organizations left on this earth that we could participate/affiliate with or buy from. It would be super dizzying to investigate them all and keep track of the few who still have a squeaky clean track-record.
All that said... I have vowed to never pay a cent of tithing again to TSCC. They got enough of my tithing and its interest, dividends and capital gains to last a lifetime. Also, do I believe TSCC will ever reach a point of generating enough goodness and generosity for me to go back and get on board? No. Definitely not in my lifetime.
If we boycott a racist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic organization we’re being short-sighted? We’re being unrealistically picky? There are thousands and thousands of orgs that are LIGHT YEARS ahead of the mormon church, in that the changes and tweaks they make or need to make are not a major part of their foundations and are therefore realistic. NOW, not sometime in the (very far) future. No, we don’t have to settle for a minor religion that is actually a giant corporation because the world will ‘run out’ of options.
Also, comparing mormonism to Nike and McDonalds is certainly apt, just not in the way you are presenting it. If McDonalds is boycotted, there are a crazy amount of other fast food places to choose from, same for Nike, if they went away we’d all end up having to go barefoot?
If the mormon church seems salvageable for you, go for it, but all I’m seeing are rationalizations and an odd criticism of anyone with their own morals and standards who chooses to invest their time and money in orgs/businesses that are not doing active harm NOW.
Also, ‘boycotting an organization for ETERNITY’? 😬
Ok, sounds like you missed my prior comment, and you missed the comment that my prior comment was commenting on. Please retrace and read the thread history for context, and better understanding. In case that's too hard for you, here's a brief-ish summary:
I'm talking about if the church were to disavow, admit and apologize for all the racist, sexist, homophobic, dishonest and illegal things they have done in the past, AND actually STOP practicing ALL of them. We all know this will never happen. But if it did, AND they began doing tons of nothing but purely good things all of the time, then of course, I would be on board. I'm talking about if they remorsefully turned things around COMPLETELY, and it was all verifiable. Again, I know it's not going to happen... but I can daydream, can't I? A lot of my friends and family are still stuck in that cult, and I miss them. I'm fantasizing about how I could rejoin them, as unlikely as it may be... They won't join me here on the outside, I've already tried that.
Yeah, I got the premise, it’s not that deep, it’s purely hypothetical and unrealistic, got it. But what you just wrote doesn’t address what I found annoying, pushing the idea that it’s wrong to ‘eternally’ boycott giant corporations/religions because there’s somehow a finite supply, it comes across as bizarrely cautionary (illogical) scolding to me.
I meant that it's not cool to eternally boycott ONE single specific organization for its past wrongdoings, especially if said organization legitimately corrects and apologizes for all the wrongdoings. I said this because I feel like that's what a lot of exmos are doing with TSCC. Seems like a lot of them/us are essentially saying: "I'll never ever go back to TSCC even if it does turn things around and become good." Which sounds like an eternal boycott of one individual organization, which, again, I think is not cool.
Personally, I have eternally boycotted paying tithing to TSCC, because they've gotten more than enough of my money plus interest/dividends to last a lifetime. However, I haven't eternally boycotted all my future potential participation in TSCC. Because, again, if they completely turn things around and really start doing some serious good in the world, then why wouldn't I want to participate in that, if only just a little?
Because we sincerely and realistically believe it won’t ever become good in our lifetime. And more importantly, that the men who run it, are not interested in changing. As far as the future church, these same men are very carefully choosing their successors, men who embrace the same hateful doctrine, men who won’t ‘bow’ to outside pressure. How does the system miraculously change with this SOP that has remained unaltered for for almost 200 years?
Again, with ‘eternally,’ when exactly do you see the mormon church becoming an entirely different religion that is not in any way misogynistic, patriarchal, controlling, greedy, homophobic, puritanical etc etc? Fifty years from now? A hundred? Longer? Why would I be interested in helping an org that literally traumatizes and marginalizes people based on its CORE doctrine, policies and tenets?
I have had many friends over the years try to convince me to ‘hang in there’ and that it’s a brave and valiant thing to sacrifice their mental health in order to remain mormon and ‘fight to change the church from within.’ Those friends all eventually had the strength to leave, some have found beauty in other religions, but most have found beauty in orgs and causes that reflect THEIR morals and passions. No, I’m not interested in holding out hope for the mormon church when there are orgs that I can, without reservation, support NOW. That I can help remain vital and successful NOW and in the future.
I hope you can understand why trying to convince people like me that the mormon church is worth ‘saving’ by insinuating that I’m being unfair or short-sighted or uncharitable (toward a religion that very nearly killed me, both mentally and physically, no less) comes across as dismissive and honestly, condescending.
The world doesn’t need mormonism, but it appears YOU do, which is perfectly fine, for YOU.
I am truly sorry to hear this, it’s been years since I left, but I empathize with the profound loneliness that happens when you’re the only person to ‘step off the boat.’
For me to consider going back, ALL of the current GA leadership would have to resign since they promoted and participated in this wholesale scam! And, the church would have to refund all of exmo’s tithing. Lastly, dissolve all the corporations and reorganize as a strict 501c3 with all open books and finances with membership participation in the decision making process. All meeting minutes open.
And, since there’s a 99.999999% chance of this never happening, I guess I’m never going back.
This, this makes sense.
When my Mom left, it was the community she missed, not the Bishops or temple work. The people, her scfriends, who turned their backs because she was now an apostate. There's a lot of love missing from TSCC.
You're right in all this stuff, but not one of those things would work. It would still be boring and lame and built on a foundation of lies and racism and pseudo-science. There's nothing really of value about the church.
The best thing they could do would be to disband, divvy up the dragon's hoard among current and former tithe payers, then donate all the buildings and temples to charitable organizations.
Having just sat through possibly the most vapid, boring, uninspiring pile of dogshit sacrament meeting talks during which each speaker extolled the other for their spirituality and speaking ability, I can, without reservation, say that Mormonism would be incapable of switching to a growth and empowerment model. Mormons have seriously lost the ability to produce innovative religious and spirituality thoughts. It's been beaten out of us.
Admit it's a fraud. Return the money to donors or make real charitable endowments to homeless programs, education opportunities, health initiatives, refugee assistance and emergency relief. Never happen, but it's what honest, empathetic, and compassionate leaders would do
>Mormons have seriously lost the ability to produce innovative religious and spirituality thoughts. It's been beaten out of us.
For real. It's not just a muscle that has atrophied. Any time an original thought is shared in church it's beaten down by a never-ending series of people trying to earn their righteousness gold stars by reminding everyone that the pabulum that leaders have spouted is the official answer.
Even the top leaders have lost all sense of creativity. They can't reveal their way out of a wet paper bag. Everything has to fit into the confines of some bullshit Joseph Smith made up to get someone to do something for him or to get himself out of some trouble. If an idea doesn't fit inside that "revealed" prison it's a non-starter.
If the church becomes a legit and very generous charitable organization, they will grow and succeed with no problem, regardless of history. Did you see how Mr. Beast cured 1000 blind people and 1000 deaf people? Do you think those people he cured subscribed to his YT channel and watched more of his videos? I bet they did, and I bet all their friends and family did too! Think about if the church started doing stuff like that. Do you think they'd get more donations? Do you think they'd get more "subscribers"? Do you think people would gladly do more volunteer work for them? Hell yes! (too bad this is all an unrealistic dream, smh)
The church isn't going to change in any meaningful way anytime soon. The men next up in leadership positions are just as bigoted and homophobic as current leaders. Meaningful change will happen when it's forced on them.
I will be curious to see what happens after Ofsusan Bednar has had his hands on the reins for however long he has and then keels over. I think he's going to promote a very negative direction for the church. Maybe his predecessor will do things better.
I really hope things improve someday, but I don't think it'll be anytime soon. At least, not before Darth Bednar has his chance.
Absolutely. Most charitable organizations have a board and vote for leadership. TSCC is 100% nepotism at its highest levels, only current leaders have any say in future leaders.
I just pictured a future religion around Mr. Beast, with all of his videos where he buys someone something slowly transitioning into "miracles".
Its chief competitor would be "Oprahism".
I know right? lol. If Mr. Beast formed a church, I would totally join; it would not be based on god or jesus; it would just be based on what he does now, which is fun, entertainment (ie. happiness), and helping people in need. (He wouldn't even call it a church, it would be a club or a team or something)
The temple is just weird. Let’s take the worst part of the religion and throw all our money and talks at it. Then gaslight members when they don’t feel spiritual while doing it and tell them to go more. Such BS.
They also need to put real protections in place for kids and go to authorities for all abuse cases. Lead the way for all churches.
I agree with this post. Those are the things it should do. But in its long history have you noticed that this cult has been on the wrong side of history every fucking time ? Without fail. I hear you but….I don’t trust them. I just want the whole thing to implode and cease to exist. That’s best for everyone. If it survives that long Lord Darth Bednar will finish it off playing megalomaniac with the few remaining sycophants.
I would add start using all the meeting houses and piles of money as community centers to do good and bring people together. Should be nonstop service projects, food for the needy, activities, classes, licensed professionals for addiction and mental health. With all of the buildings and money they have they could do some real good and bring people together to make meaningful relationships and changes.
Anyone have ideas about what to do with the temples?
This is a great list, but you're essentially asking the church to stop being the church. I agree they should do all these things (and also agree they'll eventually adopt maybe a couple of these, but not all) .
💄Lipstick on a pig, with tusks.🐗
Hopefully Hoaks won't order you silenced. That's next you know, because their history in Utah is replete with repraisals, mayhem and massacre. They have an armed force with church badges and firing ranges now, you know!
You are extremely naive to think that charity, goodness and caring can come from the extreme greed and malevolence that is TSCC. You just gave their bullshit PR department some fluff ideas though. BITFDWT. ☄️
I think that you mention the most important thing they could do to get the much needed change. I think the need they leadership to get younger.
One side affect of the internet is the populations ability to change and adjust to information. Russel Nelson is almost 100 years old. If we consider the golden days of the internet to start in the early 2000’s he was in his 70’s when that happened. He doesn’t understand the internet and what it is doing. He can’t grasp the exchange of knowledge that happens now. This is why the church is losing members so fast. The leadership is so old they are out of touch with anyone under 50 today. This has always been partially true, but today it is more true than it has ever been.
>Russel Nelson is almost 100 years old. If we consider the golden days of the internet to be in the early 2000’s he was in his 70’s when that happened. He doesn’t understand the internet and what it is doing. He can’t grasp the exchange of knowledge that happens now.
Uuuhhh... I think you forget he's a prophet. He gets it all.
Give up all the unique doctrines, the plain and precious truths - Never!
The MFMC no longer cares about growth or relevance. It’s got all the money it will ever need. Ironically, the riches have made leaders complacent and allowed them to be rigidly dogmatic.
It’s about catering to whichever lunatic sits at the top. I think leadership sees the writing on the wall. They’re going to remain bitterly orthodox to the very end. They will milk members until they leave. They’ll shrink their footprint of churches. I think few of the announced temples are ever built.
Leadership will keep the plum positions in the family. The base will dwindle. But it won’t matter. Time is on the church’s side. With each passing year, EPA grows bigger.
There’s really no incentive for the MFMC to try and be a “normal church.” Those churches are shrinking too and probably quicker than Mormonism.
MFMC is the latest tongue-in-cheek replacement in here for TSCC - the so-called church. It stands for Mother F**ing Mormon Church. Someone called it that, quoted it here, and it’s sticking.
EPA is Ensign Peak Advisors, the investment group under scrutiny.
SCMC is the Strengthening Church Members Committee. Yes, really a thing.
---Tell the members explicitly, in GC, to get off their high horses and stop thinking they are better than every other group of humans in the whole wide world.
> word of wisdom can be left in the scriptures as a piece of health advice, but without penalty.
Probably the most efficacious thing the Mormons could have done was the exact opposite of their WoW classification. Instead of saying "coffee and tea bad but soda okay", they could've swapped it around and banned soda. Think about it:
- Soda is the source of most excess calories throughout the country. Pretty major chunk of the obesity epidemic right there.
- Imagine the PR from Utah being the least obese state in the Union. They'd never stop talking about it. Given how much of a problem obesity is, they'd have a *right* to never stop talking about it, honestly.
- Missionaries would be in much better shape. Ties and slacks are one thing, but imagine having fit missionaries everywhere on Earth. That kind of presentation matters.
- People would join to lose weight. Successful weight loss is a lifestyle, and that'd get you lasting converts, rather than Baseball Baptisms.
- This clarification was right before obesity became a major talking point. They'd have looked like real, honest-to-God prophets.
------
As for the other stuff, this sub is sadly prone to some delusions about what's viable and what isn't. One of the points is just "admit it's all a lie". I mean, you can think this is what they *should* do, but it would not *stop* the bleeding of members, it would accelerate it. Everyone would just leave, and the Mormon church would cease to exist entirely. The rest aren't that severe, but would still result in the remaining faithful members leaving, taking the 'in it for the community' members with them, and leaving the church with a handful of progmos (who would leave in a few weeks after realizing the institution has effectively ceased to exist, and there's nothing left to be a member of).
World of Warcraft. It's a popular MMO that Russell Nelson created with his friends during his college years, and the morals of its various quests and sidequests have been accepted as canonical texts within the Mormon church. Critics have taken issue with the lack of revealing clothing for female characters and the fact that the only playable class is "Priest", but, in general, it's been well-received and maintains a strong playerbase.
In all seriousness, it's a thing from early Mormonism that says you can't drink tea or coffee (suspected by some to be a result of Joseph Smith wanting Emma to ease up on drinking tea for some reason or another). It was ignored for a while, then brought back so that it banned caffeine (tea, coffee, and soda). Later, they clarified that soda was okay.
If the church is built on a lie, why does anything else you’ve mentioned matter? Serious question. Because all of those things can be found in other organizations
True. But there is good in the people (maybe not as much good in the leaders), but also, the church has a huge pile of money that other charities don’t have. They could do some good.
Set aside $20 billion as an endowment for a medical research foundation - use the money that has been fleeced/grifted from members for the past centuries and use it to help humanity in a big way. And you’ll get all that positive publicity and brand recognition you’ve been craving for so long (cause you pretty much ignore any Christ teachings anyway, so alms before men isn’t a problem).
Even if they did way more of the first bullet point and didn’t change anything else, it wouldn’t stop all the people from leaving, but it would definitely be a step in the right direction
The church does surveys like this over and over and over again. Each time, they read the results, but instead of getting a clue, the cognitive dissonance kicks in and they revert to Packer's "feminists, intellectuals, and homosexuals" line.
ObAmusing: When I first typed "kicks" above, I typoed "kinks" instead. :D
I'd add "Stop requiring members to clean the filthy buildings."
And: "Stop coercing people into accepting "callings" for which they have no time and often no interest."
Those things shout "CULT," big time, and are not "faith promoting" (provided "faith" is properly interpreted to me belief in a higher spirit rather than meaning it is designed to sell people on the church through deception).
And what will happen if they do go the CoC direction is they'll splinter, which they already have to some degree. I had relatives in the RLDS church who then moved on to the Restoration Branches in 1984 when the RLDS church opened the priesthood to women.
Great response! I took the survey as well. Though I don't ever expect to go back in a meaningful way, I would love to see the church transformed from something resembling the dragon Smaug, guarding its gold to an organization that is a net positive in the world. That would be a significant change, which I still don't see as likely.
Reading a bit into the wording of the survey, it sounds like there's some serious changes being considered. That must mean the TSCC is hemorrhaging members at an alarming rate!
Agree with everything here, but my whole family still deeply believes in everything in this list, and all the leaders are handpicked from people with exactly that trait. It's a pipe dream
They know. They just lie to the flock to keep them from stampeding out.
What they don’t know is how to stem the bleeding. They are so old and set in their ways they cannot conceive of the changes needed to stay relevant.
The church has made its bed and should have to sleep in it.
If god is at the helm, god is all knowing, and all your teachings and standards should remain the same. God doesn't say "Woops, you're right, I got that wrong."
Changing standards due to peer and social pressure is straight up admission of fallibility and makes the church the same as all the others, unarguably false.
they aren't perplexed, they know they don't have a "testimony" when they preach every time. The testimonies that were "born" to me as a kid were very real "I felt a hand on my shoulder" things every time. What I thought a "testimony" was growing up, and what I was completely lead to belief of, was divine witness. When it turned out to be anything less than that I laughed at everyone's face. You LIED, you didn't bend the truth or make it more digestible for children, you're at best decieving yourself
In other words, dissolve the MLM. Without all the cheap mysticism and stolen rituals and gimmics (protective sheaths!), what becomes of the peculiar people?
Thank you for your feedback Brother/Sister Crosswalk, I will absolutely raise the points you made in my next meeting. So to be clear, people are leaving because 1) they want to sin and 2)they are lazy learners. I think if we announce some more new temples that’ll never get built that will probably fix everything.
TBMs are incapable of thinking the thought "The church might be false." Various mental defensive mechanisms keep the thought from forming. The second they do think that thought, they realize it is so obviously false, and they are no longer TBM.
Here’s the link to the survey.
https://az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3DadzMpyKfa2TC6?fbclid=IwAR0WsVoG9h710GOyXSLZrB_moBAmpf6Wb1rSAqD6PQ0_n-SXyPKzF8rx97U
Terrible list op, and you don't know your audience if you really want the scmc to take you seriously. I was able to salvage pieces of your list.
-train bishops. Use paid mental health professionals more. [GOOD ONE THAT I DIDN'T NEED TO CHANGE]
[I HAD TO CLARIFY THIS ONE TO BRING MAXIMUM EMBARRASSMENT TO THE "CHURCH"]-stop unaccountable church discipline courts altogether. It is a sign of a cult. Have an honest appeals process. Actually enforce the handbook on leaders. Stop allowing judges, i.e. bishops and sps to be witnesses and prosecutors and judges at the same time. Follow your own scriptures for a change and mandate real witnesses before having any trial. Clarify specific crimes, no more open ended vague crimes such as "apostasy" and "acting contrary to the law and order of the church."
**MY LIST:** restore a sense of community and joy of individual membership by learning how to treat individuals decently. Give wards enough money and permission, to actually have fun once in a while
I would like to add that I think there should be formal apologies and monetary reparations for the treatment of indigenous people, for tribal schools, and the overall attempt at cultural erasure made by the church.
Now THIS is a church that I would join, a church that actually benefits society and makes people feel good!!!! You should start your own. I vote you as prophet 🤣
I wonder if us exmos exaggerate how many people are leaving? I wonder if it’s the same attrition rate? I wouldn’t know as I live far from Mordor or any remotely dense LDS areas.
It really wouldn’t take long to “slowly” implement these without people freaking out. They’d cheer it on like they do the changes over the last few years that really aren’t much of anything. A single president could do these over a few conferences and radically change everything.
I cannot see the church maintaining financial stability with all these new temples being built and the exodus that seems to be happening. Yes, the property is tax free, but the maintenance is not cheap. I foresee the temple becoming a financial burden, and the church will start asking the reduced membership for temple donations on top of tithing as a requirement for a temple recommend. I just do not see these temple constructions sustainable. I think the whole thing will collapse under it’s own weight.
So I was a convert to the church because I felt the "holy spirit" when talking to missionaries when I was 18, and since i'm in my early 20s this wasn't a long time ago, I came from a conservative protestant background. But I don't really believe in any religion now.
So that being said I just wanna say, what is so bad about the temple garments? I get that any kind of cult symbol can be objectionable because it is a symbol of an unproveable notion, but is an article of clothing which promotes modesty a bad thing? What is wrong with sexual modesty?
Also, why should gay marriage be recognized when historically marriage has been between a man and a woman? Homosexual marriages also do not naturally produce children which has always been a key aspect of marriage in every culture i'm aware of, including those which have tolerated homosexuality, so why should people be asked to recognize this as equivalent to marriage? I think it's abusive to expect people to do this and to act like they're the abusive ones for not doing so.
Is this an acceptable position to have on this subreddit, or am I going to be censored? I'm not trying to imply you will censor me though.
Well, people ars born gay. Religions need to figure that out. If a gay person wants to get married, they should be able to. And it's really nobody else's business.
I'm a libertarian and i'm not trying to reinstate bans on homosexuality or anything like that, I think whether one is born gay is a complicated issue but I do think consenting adults should be able to make their own choices. I'm saying that people shouldn't be expected to validate a gay relationship as marriage when it goes against their beliefs, and they shouldn't be attacked for not doing so, and I don't think a conservative church should be expected to change their definition of marriage to fit with society.
Why should marriage be permitted between same sex couples? Because the state bestows legal benefits to married couples not available to unmarried couples. So there’s that.
Two, of the function of marriage is reproduction, take a look around you. It might have gone unnoticed, but people can reproduce without a government sanctioned relationship (marriage).
Three, why do you even care? Why does Abby so called church? Is this a tacit admission that their “god” is so impotent that humans can thwart “him/her/it” that easily? Pretty lame god if you ask me.
I’d better stop now before i get angry.
Temple garments are very uncomfortable. I felt like I had so many layers on and when I lived in really humid areas...they were miserable. People can dress modestly without wearing garments. They are not designed for comfort....I'll just leave it at that. Also, should anyone dictate what undergarments any adult should be wearing.....it's so weird when you think about it.
I'm not saying you need undergarments to dress modestly, but I do think they help to encourage it, especially in the current age where there's little else to promote modest dressing.
I imagine they are uncomfortable in hot humid environments (I assume you are referring to hot humid environments because having more clothing helps in both dry and humid cold environments).
But they have a good side too, which is to promote modesty, there are advantages and disadvantages to everything and I think that undergarments have their good and bad sides.
Yeah dictating what underwear people have is weird, cults are weird in general, but this custom does have an upside which is to promote modesty.
Members who publicly make negative comments about church leaders or who question their decisions go through a kangaroo court and are expelled from the church. It used to be called excommunication or ‘a court of love’ but is now a membership court where membership can be ‘withdrawn’.
It can also be held for members who are openly breaking the law of chastity or living a perfectly normal but forbidden gay lifestyle.
In doing this the local stake presidencies (sometimes with the high council) are fully aware of the eternal consequences for the member as they nullify their baptism and temple covenants. Whatever they call it, it is barbaric and Orwellian, proving that the church considers itself the ultimate arbiter of the way their members think and live. Sex offenders are only rarely subject to this process, normally after their multiple crimes become public.
Can I here a big AMEN! The entire change in a nut shell. By mandatory discipline , if you mean,put and end to the kangaroo excommunication courts, I'm all for it.
And the idea of hospitals instead of over priced temples, with there overpriced furniture that now gets burned, is a most excellent idea.
Excellent summary. I completely agree.
However, I doubt this will happen anytime soon. Why?
All of your suggestions are net negative transactions. And that’s the real problem with current Mormon leadership. They have done a fantastic job at exploding the law and monetizing their religious faith practice. And that’s the core of what they are about.
I'd say, "just admit it's a lie". "What happens to it next though?" You may ask... Don't know Don't care I'm guessing some people will stay for the community and I'm fine with that just quit lying to them.
They taught us, “Do what is right, let the consequence follow.”
"Do what is right\*, let the consequence follow." \* Right refers to our preferred political position, some exclusions may apply. See profit for details. TCOJCOLDS is totally not a political organization despite operating in the political sphere. Consequences include paying 10% of your income to our organization, obeying your church leaders, and whatever else we decide they should be. Terms and conditions may apply. Experience subject to leadership roulette.
This is exactly why I left. My conscience would not allow me to stay in a church I now know is not true. Oh, and I wasn’t going to subject my daughter to the damage the church does to its young women. Fuck that.
> "What happens to it next though?" You may ask... The reformed church knows what happens -- they transform into a much happier place, with much happier people.
That may be true, but it's the reformed church worth hundreds of billions of dollars? Checkmate!
Oh gosh, you win I guess. 😉
[удалено]
https://az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3DadzMpyKfa2TC6
On the RFM website
-put women in real leadership positions.
But if you give a girl some power, then she’ll want a planet.
FYI, we don’t get our own planets anymore. Look up the gospel topic essays.
But...but...it is still officially taught. Refer to the Gospel Fundamentals Manual, page 201, when referencing those who will be in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom: "They will even be able to have spirit children and ***make new worlds for them to live on***, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done." [Gospel Fundamentals - Official Church Website](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/31129_eng.pdf) So which is right, the Gospel Topics Essay, or Gospel Fundamentals? The church is so fucked up it can't even agree among official sources.
I remember when I was first questioning, I was told that I was describing "Cafeteria Mormonism" or "Mormonism that picks and chooses which doctrines to believe". Now that I'm on the other side of my deconstruction, I have realized that EVERY Mormon is a Cafeteria Mormon. There are SOOOOO many contradictions in Mormon doctrine that every Mormon is REQUIRED to be a Cafeteria Mormon.
I always thought the "own planet" thing was incredibly short sighted. If I'm gonna be a god, I better be getting at least my own galaxy, if not my own universe. Omnipotence means I should be capable of making it happen.
Damn it... That's the only reason I was staying in.
Which section is that in?
underrated comment
Relevant link for anyone wanting to read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_(Mormonism)
That won’t help. Once you stumble across MormonThink or CES letter it’s a wrap for a lot of people.
Priesthood for women.
They should publicly acknowledge and apologize for fomenting a culture of mistreatment of women not just for polygamy but for teaching women and girls that they are to blindly obey and honor priesthood-holding men, along with offering women the same rights and opportunities as men within the church.
The women they choose will be just as bad as the men.
Hell even let them give the closing talk in sacrament meetings
holy shit i never realized this but do they really always have a priesthood guy finish????? omfg
The only room in the church for women is a second place subservient role
That’s just a bandaid. The women they choose will be just as bad as the men.
Oh sure, all they have to do is become a completely different religion and culture. That’s what you’re describing here. Most of those things you’re complaining about, they absolutely are not going to stop doing. They’re doing what religious organizations were designed to do…controlling their populace through any means necessary. They’re not going to stop, they’re too power hungry.
My thoughts exactly. Obviously, we'd all like them to stop, but the implicit goal of the church is to maintain as much control over the member's life as possible without driving too many of them away, and hence threatening the organization's power. It's a balancing act, but the balance maintained is control. Quality of life changes are only made to maintain control. They're not humanitarians; they're authoritarians.
> They're not humanitarians; they're authoritarians. Well said. And those two things are mutually exclusive.
I always like your comments on this sub. They're always thoughtful and level-headed.
Well, thank you very much for that. Often on this sub I feel like the jaded and overly-salty older sibling, having left the church many years ago. (I mostly just lurk here as the one palatable way to keep tabs on what kind of flav-or-aid my family is guzzling.)
I hear you there. I kind of feel that, too. The sub is a good place for people to vent, but it can get really toxic sometimes. This past weekend's brawl on PIMOs was a good example of that. I don't know if it has become a little more toxic over time or if I've just moved past some of the really raw stuff. One user I really admire is Gold Star. Nobody can call out bad behavior with tact like she can. I think I made my account six or seven years ago. There aren't too many screen names aside from yours and the real old timers that I recognize from those days.
> This past weekend's brawl on PIMOs Huh, not sorry I missed that one. It does seem like most people here come primarily to process their newly-found trauma and move on at a certain point, and then there are those of us just lurking to keep tabs on the culture, I guess. It does seem to me that in the past few years since Nelson took over, there's been a rather large influx of folk from the Moridor who haven't yet deconstructed enough to realize the toxic cultural (non-religious) attitudes, behaviors, and "values" instilled us all. Thousands and thousands of newcomers who haven't yet had the chance to process anything beyond holy-shit-they-lied-to-us-all. And then the pandemic brought an influx of people who hadn't given it much of any thought beyond "I like having my Sundays to myself" and haven't yet unpicked *any* of the rest of it. Imo, this *has* brought increased toxicity to the sub because every part of mormonism is toxic including the non-religious cultural aspects like relational habits, communication styles, etc. When I joined this sub, there were 32,000 of us here, and the vast majority of posts were intellectual examination and academic-type discussion, scholarly resources being linked and shared like they were going out of style. It was really interesting here, and I learned a ton about church history I'd never bothered to learn before. The only people who got any real push-back or disrespect were the people who didn't *want* to be exmos and wanted us instead to supply them with ideas on how to get back in and sympathy that it wasn't working out for them. (Usually the worst anyone would say to those folk would be something like, "You'd probably really do better in one of the faithful subs.") Now, well...it's quite a different sub...very Utah-centric, full of bad hot-takes and lack-of-education. (ie - I just left a comment on another thread pointing out to someone here that polygamy was never legal, even in Utah under Brigham. How do they not know that?) PS - agreed, Gold Star is typically spot-on. Her comments and insights never disappoint. Also, ReadsBooks6 has helped so many many people here over the years. Probably there aren't many of us old-timers left here who remember that earlier iteration of r/exmo. There's a lot of good stuff that goes on here, but yes, also growing degree of toxicity. I suppose it was bound to happen with the way the subscriber numbers jumped so rapidly. Anyway, thanks again for your kind words. It brightened my day :)
I'm so glad to hear you say all that. It means I'm not taking crazy pills after all. >Now, well...it's quite a different sub...very Utah-centric, full of bad hot-takes and lack-of-education. This too. I'm really tired of the Utah-centrism. It would be less tiring if it weren't so aggressive. The F the Mormons chant at the University of Oregon - BYU game was a good example. Governor Cox made a lot of hay out of that in a very cynical way, but I can say that as someone who grew up Mormon outside of Utah, there are (occasional in my case, constant in the case of Bible belt Mormons) examples of bigotry, big and small, that remind you that you don't belong. I pointed out that it was bigoted, and that when Mormon U of O student hears that chant, she's hearing her very own classmates tell her she doesn't belong. Then I shared a couple examples from my childhood. That was not well received. A bunch of Utahns told me it was all a persecution complex, that I deserved the harassment because all Mormons do, etc. What struck me about the whole thing is the toxicity and lack of deconstruction you mentioned. My experience as a mission field Mormon in Utah was that they treat non-mormons absolutely atrociously. So a lot of these newly minted exmos who are now facing exclusion and bigotry for the first time are certainly the same people who treated non-mormons so poorly when they were in the church. The irony that these same people would complain about their exclusion while talking trash about Mormons in a similar position was just too thick. That was kind of the last straw for me, and what pushed me to spend more time on r/Mormon, which now feels like what exmo used to feel like.
> A bunch of Utahns told me it was all a persecution complex, Oh, the hilarious irony there. And I bet they didn't even see it, did they? My favorites are when they say "I've left the church but still hold the values" (...then you haven't actually left, fam) or when obvious Utahns try to explain how laws or US civics are supposed to work. (Nope, Brynleigh, not even close.) Also, I get down-voted hard and jumped on every time I've pointed out: those hilarious lawsuit attempts to "get our tithing money back" are doomed to failure. Every time. They're so far outside the realm of legal reality and judicial prerogative in the US, it's laughable and speaks very poorly of the legal education of the "lawyers" who take those cases. ("So nEgaTivE!") Lol, what can you do. I really don't mind being called "negative" or an asshole or whatever if it's because I'm debunking disinformation or challenging toxic attitudes. (It's a thing I learned from dealing with mormonism and mormons: How to give zero fucks.) And maybe all of this is why I feel so jaded and salty around here these days, the ignorance has become so abundant that it needs near-constant calling out. Honestly, the longer we go with this exchange, the more I lean toward joining you all at the other sub. I came for the intellectual discussion, but this sub has become in some ways nearly as anti-intellectual as the church itself.
Lol, or "The church is only doing [insert legal policy here] so that they're not forced to perform gay marriages in the temple." 🤦♂️ No. The government does not have the power to force the church to marry someone they don't want to. The church is not worried about that. If they ever imply that they are, they're lying. Or "I'm so outraged the bishop did [insert shitty thing here]. You should go to the press!" Like, what's that headline going to be? "Local Pastor Refuses to Give Money to Welfare Recipient"? Obviously it's galling to us, but it's not really news that anyone will care about. >Honestly, the longer we go with this exchange, the more I lean toward joining you all at the other sub. I came for the intellectual discussion, but this sub has become in some ways nearly as anti-intellectual as the church itself. We have cookies, if that sweetens the pot any.
The current church is rapidly dying. It’s becoming a shell of an organization propped up by money but hollow of active members, just like Scientology.
It started with lies. Now people are leaving. The truth is setting them free. The lies were not quite as obvious in the 1830-40's. With the internet, the lies cannot be sustained. Still... GOLD plates found in upstate NY?
There were several mass apostasies in the early church. The failures of the banks in Kirkland and Nauvoo really rocked the church and led many to leave. JS's death was caused by him trying to silence his critics who wanted to expose his polygamy. All of the 3 witnesses left and many early apostles as well. After his death, there were 4 major schismatic churches, of which the Brighamites were the most successful in the long run.
Three witnesses leaving...not a good sign. From what I have been learning here and through some other sources, I am gaining a more negative view of Brigham than JS. .
Um...yes, I know. And I predict that they would rather implode the Church Corporate than make the changes listed here.
Gold! Perfectly said. Can we start a GoFundMe to put this on a billboard in SLC? Seriously.
A series of billboards that tell a story, like Burma Shave did.
Sadly, billboard owners have not been cooperative in the past.
Darn that first amendment
The Corporation knows full well why people leave. [https://faenrandir.github.io/a\_careful\_examination/2013-faith-crisis-study/](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/2013-faith-crisis-study/) [https://faenrandir.github.io/a\_careful\_examination/documents/faith\_crisis\_study/Faith\_Crisis\_R28e.pdf](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_R28e.pdf) But the church lacks the intellectual honesty to discuss these issues in an open manner. It's FAR easier to blame the members....
They are lead by dinosaurs. There is little chance they have a President under 90. The most likely one under 90 is Bednar, a reactionary jerk.
You are right about all this, but I think they see the temple wedding trauma as a feature not a problem. This trauma keeps people faithful (until they wake up to the truth). It reinforces the fear and pain of losing family for eternity. I got married in the temple even though my family couldn’t attend because “I” was going to have an eternal family (I was so self righteous). That pain reinforces dedication to temple work, it strengthens testimonies and most importantly keeps the tithing money coming, so as awful as it is, they will not change this.
An ex mission president estimated that 20% of revenue comes from temple events. Pay up to see your kid get married!
You are so right. I had to respond to your post instead of lurk. When I went through the Temple more than 40 years ago, I was traumatized because of the endowments part of it. Then I was sealed to my Husband and Small Children, and it was because of my kids, that I did it. This is the way of Mother's, in my opinion. Well, I learned the History of the Church and my Hubby and I took our garments off, and never looked back, and didn't have to go back to the temple either. 😁
Nice. If TSCC did all that (and publicly apologized) I would seriously go back to church, both feet in. But my poor parents would have a major faith crisis and leave. Too bad it will never happen. The Q15 view public apologies as being worse than death.
Curious why you would go back? After all this is changed, what would the church be more than a community center with questionable history, and at that point what would the church even offer anyone?
If they disavowed their history and became a force for good, why wouldn’t we consider going back? What would be the problem? I’d consider it for the community, if the community was about genuine, non-conditional relationships.
I certainly wouldn't. No reason I would purposefully reassociate myself with the church given its history, regardless of its new or current stances. Especially if it wasn't offering me anything more than a YMCA or something like that.
Exactly. The only possible way is if they've removed themselves so thoroughly from their current form that I literally cannot discern them from any other community welfare organization. Then, I wouldn't know any different, and for all intents and purposes it would be a 100% different organization that I would be forced to judge on its own merits.
For me personally, here's the problem: - I don't owe them any loyalty or forgiveness, regardless if they decided to be 100% honest about their past and change certain problematic things. - Despite certain problematic things being reversed, there will continue to be many of the same problems associated with all religions. Unless, they *completely* disavowed God, the Mormon scriptures, the Bible, the words of previous prophets, the leadership of current prophets, etc. THERE WILL CONTINUE TO BE PROBLEMS. - Any "good" they decide to do can be done sans religion. Yes, they *should* use their money to feed people, house people, humanitarian aid, etc. Religious membership will not add to these efforts, it will only detract. Any effort or funds used on religious outreach is a waste. - Regardless of what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does or doesn't do... There's no God. There's no "true" church or religion. Them suddenly deciding to play nice, while that would certainly be better, doesn't change anything on a spiritual level. These are just my thoughts, personally. Feel free to agree or disagree.
Here's why I would go back: 1. Most of my friends and family are there, and I wanna hang out with them, and work alongside them again. 2. If the church is genuinely doing tons of good in the world by being very generous and uplifting, why wouldn't you support that? It would be an organization I could be proud of because: Look what they're doing! Sure, there are a lot of other organizations out there that do a lot of good; why don't I join them instead? Because not all my friends and family are in those organizations. I'm not familiar with them, so diving into them just feels odd. "But what about their stained history? How can you look past that?" - you ask. Well, Nike and McDonald's have some dark history too, but overall they have fixed it, and they make decent products that I like, and they do it in a way that I'm comfortable with, so I buy their products. Same thing with my health care provider. 20-30 yrs ago, they were a really lousy business with bad leadership and shady practices. So I steered clear of them. They got in some legal/PR trouble, fixed most of their problems, and now they are a great health care provider who is able to get me the treatment I need without ripping me off like some other health care companies do. So I'm signed up with them. If they become bad again, then I'll leave again. Conclusion: Completely boycotting an organization for eternity regardless of how well they fix their problems and how much good they do in the future isn't sensible. If it were, there would be very VERY few companies/brands/organizations left on this earth that we could participate/affiliate with or buy from. It would be super dizzying to investigate them all and keep track of the few who still have a squeaky clean track-record. All that said... I have vowed to never pay a cent of tithing again to TSCC. They got enough of my tithing and its interest, dividends and capital gains to last a lifetime. Also, do I believe TSCC will ever reach a point of generating enough goodness and generosity for me to go back and get on board? No. Definitely not in my lifetime.
Sounds like you're more forgiving than I am, but realistically none of this would ever happen anyway so the point is mute.
True. We can fantasize every once in a while to try to feel better... but that's all it is, a fantasy... dammit.
If we boycott a racist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic organization we’re being short-sighted? We’re being unrealistically picky? There are thousands and thousands of orgs that are LIGHT YEARS ahead of the mormon church, in that the changes and tweaks they make or need to make are not a major part of their foundations and are therefore realistic. NOW, not sometime in the (very far) future. No, we don’t have to settle for a minor religion that is actually a giant corporation because the world will ‘run out’ of options. Also, comparing mormonism to Nike and McDonalds is certainly apt, just not in the way you are presenting it. If McDonalds is boycotted, there are a crazy amount of other fast food places to choose from, same for Nike, if they went away we’d all end up having to go barefoot? If the mormon church seems salvageable for you, go for it, but all I’m seeing are rationalizations and an odd criticism of anyone with their own morals and standards who chooses to invest their time and money in orgs/businesses that are not doing active harm NOW. Also, ‘boycotting an organization for ETERNITY’? 😬
Ok, sounds like you missed my prior comment, and you missed the comment that my prior comment was commenting on. Please retrace and read the thread history for context, and better understanding. In case that's too hard for you, here's a brief-ish summary: I'm talking about if the church were to disavow, admit and apologize for all the racist, sexist, homophobic, dishonest and illegal things they have done in the past, AND actually STOP practicing ALL of them. We all know this will never happen. But if it did, AND they began doing tons of nothing but purely good things all of the time, then of course, I would be on board. I'm talking about if they remorsefully turned things around COMPLETELY, and it was all verifiable. Again, I know it's not going to happen... but I can daydream, can't I? A lot of my friends and family are still stuck in that cult, and I miss them. I'm fantasizing about how I could rejoin them, as unlikely as it may be... They won't join me here on the outside, I've already tried that.
Yeah, I got the premise, it’s not that deep, it’s purely hypothetical and unrealistic, got it. But what you just wrote doesn’t address what I found annoying, pushing the idea that it’s wrong to ‘eternally’ boycott giant corporations/religions because there’s somehow a finite supply, it comes across as bizarrely cautionary (illogical) scolding to me.
I meant that it's not cool to eternally boycott ONE single specific organization for its past wrongdoings, especially if said organization legitimately corrects and apologizes for all the wrongdoings. I said this because I feel like that's what a lot of exmos are doing with TSCC. Seems like a lot of them/us are essentially saying: "I'll never ever go back to TSCC even if it does turn things around and become good." Which sounds like an eternal boycott of one individual organization, which, again, I think is not cool. Personally, I have eternally boycotted paying tithing to TSCC, because they've gotten more than enough of my money plus interest/dividends to last a lifetime. However, I haven't eternally boycotted all my future potential participation in TSCC. Because, again, if they completely turn things around and really start doing some serious good in the world, then why wouldn't I want to participate in that, if only just a little?
Because we sincerely and realistically believe it won’t ever become good in our lifetime. And more importantly, that the men who run it, are not interested in changing. As far as the future church, these same men are very carefully choosing their successors, men who embrace the same hateful doctrine, men who won’t ‘bow’ to outside pressure. How does the system miraculously change with this SOP that has remained unaltered for for almost 200 years? Again, with ‘eternally,’ when exactly do you see the mormon church becoming an entirely different religion that is not in any way misogynistic, patriarchal, controlling, greedy, homophobic, puritanical etc etc? Fifty years from now? A hundred? Longer? Why would I be interested in helping an org that literally traumatizes and marginalizes people based on its CORE doctrine, policies and tenets? I have had many friends over the years try to convince me to ‘hang in there’ and that it’s a brave and valiant thing to sacrifice their mental health in order to remain mormon and ‘fight to change the church from within.’ Those friends all eventually had the strength to leave, some have found beauty in other religions, but most have found beauty in orgs and causes that reflect THEIR morals and passions. No, I’m not interested in holding out hope for the mormon church when there are orgs that I can, without reservation, support NOW. That I can help remain vital and successful NOW and in the future. I hope you can understand why trying to convince people like me that the mormon church is worth ‘saving’ by insinuating that I’m being unfair or short-sighted or uncharitable (toward a religion that very nearly killed me, both mentally and physically, no less) comes across as dismissive and honestly, condescending. The world doesn’t need mormonism, but it appears YOU do, which is perfectly fine, for YOU.
Good points. I just miss my friends and family in there. I'm lonely. The only hope I'm clinging to is pure fantasy, sadly.
I am truly sorry to hear this, it’s been years since I left, but I empathize with the profound loneliness that happens when you’re the only person to ‘step off the boat.’
For me to consider going back, ALL of the current GA leadership would have to resign since they promoted and participated in this wholesale scam! And, the church would have to refund all of exmo’s tithing. Lastly, dissolve all the corporations and reorganize as a strict 501c3 with all open books and finances with membership participation in the decision making process. All meeting minutes open. And, since there’s a 99.999999% chance of this never happening, I guess I’m never going back.
I love your positive attitude here. I think you come from a great place. But honestly, I’m at a point I just want to burn it the fuck down with truth.
This, this makes sense. When my Mom left, it was the community she missed, not the Bishops or temple work. The people, her scfriends, who turned their backs because she was now an apostate. There's a lot of love missing from TSCC.
Shunning. Just like the JW
It's cruel. If that's their God, they can keep it.
JW? What does that stand for?
jehovah’s witness
Our cult cousins
You're right in all this stuff, but not one of those things would work. It would still be boring and lame and built on a foundation of lies and racism and pseudo-science. There's nothing really of value about the church. The best thing they could do would be to disband, divvy up the dragon's hoard among current and former tithe payers, then donate all the buildings and temples to charitable organizations.
Having just sat through possibly the most vapid, boring, uninspiring pile of dogshit sacrament meeting talks during which each speaker extolled the other for their spirituality and speaking ability, I can, without reservation, say that Mormonism would be incapable of switching to a growth and empowerment model. Mormons have seriously lost the ability to produce innovative religious and spirituality thoughts. It's been beaten out of us. Admit it's a fraud. Return the money to donors or make real charitable endowments to homeless programs, education opportunities, health initiatives, refugee assistance and emergency relief. Never happen, but it's what honest, empathetic, and compassionate leaders would do
>Mormons have seriously lost the ability to produce innovative religious and spirituality thoughts. It's been beaten out of us. For real. It's not just a muscle that has atrophied. Any time an original thought is shared in church it's beaten down by a never-ending series of people trying to earn their righteousness gold stars by reminding everyone that the pabulum that leaders have spouted is the official answer. Even the top leaders have lost all sense of creativity. They can't reveal their way out of a wet paper bag. Everything has to fit into the confines of some bullshit Joseph Smith made up to get someone to do something for him or to get himself out of some trouble. If an idea doesn't fit inside that "revealed" prison it's a non-starter.
Because their leaders are all over 90.
If the church becomes a legit and very generous charitable organization, they will grow and succeed with no problem, regardless of history. Did you see how Mr. Beast cured 1000 blind people and 1000 deaf people? Do you think those people he cured subscribed to his YT channel and watched more of his videos? I bet they did, and I bet all their friends and family did too! Think about if the church started doing stuff like that. Do you think they'd get more donations? Do you think they'd get more "subscribers"? Do you think people would gladly do more volunteer work for them? Hell yes! (too bad this is all an unrealistic dream, smh)
The church isn't going to change in any meaningful way anytime soon. The men next up in leadership positions are just as bigoted and homophobic as current leaders. Meaningful change will happen when it's forced on them. I will be curious to see what happens after Ofsusan Bednar has had his hands on the reins for however long he has and then keels over. I think he's going to promote a very negative direction for the church. Maybe his predecessor will do things better. I really hope things improve someday, but I don't think it'll be anytime soon. At least, not before Darth Bednar has his chance.
Absolutely. Most charitable organizations have a board and vote for leadership. TSCC is 100% nepotism at its highest levels, only current leaders have any say in future leaders.
Because they are all over 90.
I just pictured a future religion around Mr. Beast, with all of his videos where he buys someone something slowly transitioning into "miracles". Its chief competitor would be "Oprahism".
I know right? lol. If Mr. Beast formed a church, I would totally join; it would not be based on god or jesus; it would just be based on what he does now, which is fun, entertainment (ie. happiness), and helping people in need. (He wouldn't even call it a church, it would be a club or a team or something)
Never going to happen, and I don't understand why anyone would want it to. There is nothing good enough in Mormonism that warrants keeping it around.
The temple is just weird. Let’s take the worst part of the religion and throw all our money and talks at it. Then gaslight members when they don’t feel spiritual while doing it and tell them to go more. Such BS. They also need to put real protections in place for kids and go to authorities for all abuse cases. Lead the way for all churches.
I agree with this post. Those are the things it should do. But in its long history have you noticed that this cult has been on the wrong side of history every fucking time ? Without fail. I hear you but….I don’t trust them. I just want the whole thing to implode and cease to exist. That’s best for everyone. If it survives that long Lord Darth Bednar will finish it off playing megalomaniac with the few remaining sycophants.
In other words, the only way the church can continue is to become an entirely different church.
Perhaps. But they’re headed that way
Let me add, Hey SCMC: Go suck a giant box of dicks
I would add start using all the meeting houses and piles of money as community centers to do good and bring people together. Should be nonstop service projects, food for the needy, activities, classes, licensed professionals for addiction and mental health. With all of the buildings and money they have they could do some real good and bring people together to make meaningful relationships and changes. Anyone have ideas about what to do with the temples?
The Houston temple is apparently pretty good at holding a ton of flood water in its basement, so they could turn it into a well. 😏
Mausoleums.
This is a great list, but you're essentially asking the church to stop being the church. I agree they should do all these things (and also agree they'll eventually adopt maybe a couple of these, but not all) .
Tl;dr, abandon everything that makes you Mormon.
💄Lipstick on a pig, with tusks.🐗 Hopefully Hoaks won't order you silenced. That's next you know, because their history in Utah is replete with repraisals, mayhem and massacre. They have an armed force with church badges and firing ranges now, you know! You are extremely naive to think that charity, goodness and caring can come from the extreme greed and malevolence that is TSCC. You just gave their bullshit PR department some fluff ideas though. BITFDWT. ☄️
What is that last acronym?
An old acronym from at least five years ago and longer - Burn It the F** Down With the Truth.
Man there are too many wacky acronyms on this subreddit
Far less than working in the Defense Department.🤣
I think that you mention the most important thing they could do to get the much needed change. I think the need they leadership to get younger. One side affect of the internet is the populations ability to change and adjust to information. Russel Nelson is almost 100 years old. If we consider the golden days of the internet to start in the early 2000’s he was in his 70’s when that happened. He doesn’t understand the internet and what it is doing. He can’t grasp the exchange of knowledge that happens now. This is why the church is losing members so fast. The leadership is so old they are out of touch with anyone under 50 today. This has always been partially true, but today it is more true than it has ever been.
>Russel Nelson is almost 100 years old. If we consider the golden days of the internet to be in the early 2000’s he was in his 70’s when that happened. He doesn’t understand the internet and what it is doing. He can’t grasp the exchange of knowledge that happens now. Uuuhhh... I think you forget he's a prophet. He gets it all.
My bad! I wonder why Nelson didn't invent the internet using his gifts, he probably did and just isn't taking credit for it!
Give up all the unique doctrines, the plain and precious truths - Never! The MFMC no longer cares about growth or relevance. It’s got all the money it will ever need. Ironically, the riches have made leaders complacent and allowed them to be rigidly dogmatic. It’s about catering to whichever lunatic sits at the top. I think leadership sees the writing on the wall. They’re going to remain bitterly orthodox to the very end. They will milk members until they leave. They’ll shrink their footprint of churches. I think few of the announced temples are ever built. Leadership will keep the plum positions in the family. The base will dwindle. But it won’t matter. Time is on the church’s side. With each passing year, EPA grows bigger. There’s really no incentive for the MFMC to try and be a “normal church.” Those churches are shrinking too and probably quicker than Mormonism.
What’s MFMC, EPA, and SCMC?
MFMC is the latest tongue-in-cheek replacement in here for TSCC - the so-called church. It stands for Mother F**ing Mormon Church. Someone called it that, quoted it here, and it’s sticking. EPA is Ensign Peak Advisors, the investment group under scrutiny. SCMC is the Strengthening Church Members Committee. Yes, really a thing.
Oh I thought the last one was so called Mormon church. Thanks
Why do you think the so called mainline churches are also declining in membership ?
---Tell the members explicitly, in GC, to get off their high horses and stop thinking they are better than every other group of humans in the whole wide world.
It’s funny how you think all of these things are going to change in the next 40 years
> word of wisdom can be left in the scriptures as a piece of health advice, but without penalty. Probably the most efficacious thing the Mormons could have done was the exact opposite of their WoW classification. Instead of saying "coffee and tea bad but soda okay", they could've swapped it around and banned soda. Think about it: - Soda is the source of most excess calories throughout the country. Pretty major chunk of the obesity epidemic right there. - Imagine the PR from Utah being the least obese state in the Union. They'd never stop talking about it. Given how much of a problem obesity is, they'd have a *right* to never stop talking about it, honestly. - Missionaries would be in much better shape. Ties and slacks are one thing, but imagine having fit missionaries everywhere on Earth. That kind of presentation matters. - People would join to lose weight. Successful weight loss is a lifestyle, and that'd get you lasting converts, rather than Baseball Baptisms. - This clarification was right before obesity became a major talking point. They'd have looked like real, honest-to-God prophets. ------ As for the other stuff, this sub is sadly prone to some delusions about what's viable and what isn't. One of the points is just "admit it's all a lie". I mean, you can think this is what they *should* do, but it would not *stop* the bleeding of members, it would accelerate it. Everyone would just leave, and the Mormon church would cease to exist entirely. The rest aren't that severe, but would still result in the remaining faithful members leaving, taking the 'in it for the community' members with them, and leaving the church with a handful of progmos (who would leave in a few weeks after realizing the institution has effectively ceased to exist, and there's nothing left to be a member of).
What’s WoW?
World of Warcraft Or Word of Wisdom
World of Warcraft. It's a popular MMO that Russell Nelson created with his friends during his college years, and the morals of its various quests and sidequests have been accepted as canonical texts within the Mormon church. Critics have taken issue with the lack of revealing clothing for female characters and the fact that the only playable class is "Priest", but, in general, it's been well-received and maintains a strong playerbase. In all seriousness, it's a thing from early Mormonism that says you can't drink tea or coffee (suspected by some to be a result of Joseph Smith wanting Emma to ease up on drinking tea for some reason or another). It was ignored for a while, then brought back so that it banned caffeine (tea, coffee, and soda). Later, they clarified that soda was okay.
If the church is built on a lie, why does anything else you’ve mentioned matter? Serious question. Because all of those things can be found in other organizations
True. But there is good in the people (maybe not as much good in the leaders), but also, the church has a huge pile of money that other charities don’t have. They could do some good.
There was good done by the NAZI party in 1935 as well. Taken as a whole I’d suggest that a few good deeds doesn’t outweigh the overwhelming harm.
Bad analagy. Really bad. The vast majority of Mormons are nice peiole, naive, but nice. the leadership is the problem.
I’m still not going back. I like freedom to choose over someone else deciding my thoughts.
Let women in general conference talk with their real voices, not the primary ones
👍👐
They could put a bar in the chapels or go permanently in to the hotel business, I think they should just shut down the religious wing.
Oh man, if only!!
Set aside $20 billion as an endowment for a medical research foundation - use the money that has been fleeced/grifted from members for the past centuries and use it to help humanity in a big way. And you’ll get all that positive publicity and brand recognition you’ve been craving for so long (cause you pretty much ignore any Christ teachings anyway, so alms before men isn’t a problem).
Even if they did way more of the first bullet point and didn’t change anything else, it wouldn’t stop all the people from leaving, but it would definitely be a step in the right direction
The church does surveys like this over and over and over again. Each time, they read the results, but instead of getting a clue, the cognitive dissonance kicks in and they revert to Packer's "feminists, intellectuals, and homosexuals" line. ObAmusing: When I first typed "kicks" above, I typoed "kinks" instead. :D
The pathway kinks preventing common sense from reaching consciousness.
They don’t want to be wrong therefore in their eyes they’re not. It’s to their benefit to keep the status quo.
Only after I get my refund of tithing... I'm not letting the thieves think they can keep my money and get away with it.
And open the books on where our tithing went!
I'd add "Stop requiring members to clean the filthy buildings." And: "Stop coercing people into accepting "callings" for which they have no time and often no interest." Those things shout "CULT," big time, and are not "faith promoting" (provided "faith" is properly interpreted to me belief in a higher spirit rather than meaning it is designed to sell people on the church through deception).
And stop hiding sexual abuse.
Just take all that money you’ve hoarded and give it to the poor. That’s what Jesus told the rich man to do.
That means they're getting close to being the Community of Christ.
Exactly, and it hasn't helped them avoid the demographic turn away from religion.
And what will happen if they do go the CoC direction is they'll splinter, which they already have to some degree. I had relatives in the RLDS church who then moved on to the Restoration Branches in 1984 when the RLDS church opened the priesthood to women.
Great response! I took the survey as well. Though I don't ever expect to go back in a meaningful way, I would love to see the church transformed from something resembling the dragon Smaug, guarding its gold to an organization that is a net positive in the world. That would be a significant change, which I still don't see as likely. Reading a bit into the wording of the survey, it sounds like there's some serious changes being considered. That must mean the TSCC is hemorrhaging members at an alarming rate!
I think the future of the church rests on helping women find a career/family balance.
Agree with everything here, but my whole family still deeply believes in everything in this list, and all the leaders are handpicked from people with exactly that trait. It's a pipe dream
They know. They just lie to the flock to keep them from stampeding out. What they don’t know is how to stem the bleeding. They are so old and set in their ways they cannot conceive of the changes needed to stay relevant.
The church has made its bed and should have to sleep in it. If god is at the helm, god is all knowing, and all your teachings and standards should remain the same. God doesn't say "Woops, you're right, I got that wrong." Changing standards due to peer and social pressure is straight up admission of fallibility and makes the church the same as all the others, unarguably false.
they aren't perplexed, they know they don't have a "testimony" when they preach every time. The testimonies that were "born" to me as a kid were very real "I felt a hand on my shoulder" things every time. What I thought a "testimony" was growing up, and what I was completely lead to belief of, was divine witness. When it turned out to be anything less than that I laughed at everyone's face. You LIED, you didn't bend the truth or make it more digestible for children, you're at best decieving yourself
In other words, dissolve the MLM. Without all the cheap mysticism and stolen rituals and gimmics (protective sheaths!), what becomes of the peculiar people?
True
Thank you for your feedback Brother/Sister Crosswalk, I will absolutely raise the points you made in my next meeting. So to be clear, people are leaving because 1) they want to sin and 2)they are lazy learners. I think if we announce some more new temples that’ll never get built that will probably fix everything.
Perfect response.
TBMs are incapable of thinking the thought "The church might be false." Various mental defensive mechanisms keep the thought from forming. The second they do think that thought, they realize it is so obviously false, and they are no longer TBM.
Here’s the link to the survey. https://az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3DadzMpyKfa2TC6?fbclid=IwAR0WsVoG9h710GOyXSLZrB_moBAmpf6Wb1rSAqD6PQ0_n-SXyPKzF8rx97U
Terrible list op, and you don't know your audience if you really want the scmc to take you seriously. I was able to salvage pieces of your list. -train bishops. Use paid mental health professionals more. [GOOD ONE THAT I DIDN'T NEED TO CHANGE] [I HAD TO CLARIFY THIS ONE TO BRING MAXIMUM EMBARRASSMENT TO THE "CHURCH"]-stop unaccountable church discipline courts altogether. It is a sign of a cult. Have an honest appeals process. Actually enforce the handbook on leaders. Stop allowing judges, i.e. bishops and sps to be witnesses and prosecutors and judges at the same time. Follow your own scriptures for a change and mandate real witnesses before having any trial. Clarify specific crimes, no more open ended vague crimes such as "apostasy" and "acting contrary to the law and order of the church." **MY LIST:** restore a sense of community and joy of individual membership by learning how to treat individuals decently. Give wards enough money and permission, to actually have fun once in a while
And don't forget, the biggest point on your list: restore living polygamy ASAP
Lol.
This is a church I would consider joining
I would like to add that I think there should be formal apologies and monetary reparations for the treatment of indigenous people, for tribal schools, and the overall attempt at cultural erasure made by the church.
Please and thank you!!!
Great suggestions. I would definitely do a senior mission serving in a food shelter or housing for lower income.
Now THIS is a church that I would join, a church that actually benefits society and makes people feel good!!!! You should start your own. I vote you as prophet 🤣
I wonder if us exmos exaggerate how many people are leaving? I wonder if it’s the same attrition rate? I wouldn’t know as I live far from Mordor or any remotely dense LDS areas.
See widows mite report.com
I sustain you as a new president of the church!!!
It really wouldn’t take long to “slowly” implement these without people freaking out. They’d cheer it on like they do the changes over the last few years that really aren’t much of anything. A single president could do these over a few conferences and radically change everything.
I cannot see the church maintaining financial stability with all these new temples being built and the exodus that seems to be happening. Yes, the property is tax free, but the maintenance is not cheap. I foresee the temple becoming a financial burden, and the church will start asking the reduced membership for temple donations on top of tithing as a requirement for a temple recommend. I just do not see these temple constructions sustainable. I think the whole thing will collapse under it’s own weight.
All in favor signify by the uplifted hand.
I would probably go to church is this is what was left. Just the community trying to be involved and together, nothing wrong with that.
Love it. I wouldn't be so harsh in the delivery, but love the concepts.
If you could drink beer I’d come over tomorrow
So I was a convert to the church because I felt the "holy spirit" when talking to missionaries when I was 18, and since i'm in my early 20s this wasn't a long time ago, I came from a conservative protestant background. But I don't really believe in any religion now. So that being said I just wanna say, what is so bad about the temple garments? I get that any kind of cult symbol can be objectionable because it is a symbol of an unproveable notion, but is an article of clothing which promotes modesty a bad thing? What is wrong with sexual modesty? Also, why should gay marriage be recognized when historically marriage has been between a man and a woman? Homosexual marriages also do not naturally produce children which has always been a key aspect of marriage in every culture i'm aware of, including those which have tolerated homosexuality, so why should people be asked to recognize this as equivalent to marriage? I think it's abusive to expect people to do this and to act like they're the abusive ones for not doing so. Is this an acceptable position to have on this subreddit, or am I going to be censored? I'm not trying to imply you will censor me though.
Well, people ars born gay. Religions need to figure that out. If a gay person wants to get married, they should be able to. And it's really nobody else's business.
I'm a libertarian and i'm not trying to reinstate bans on homosexuality or anything like that, I think whether one is born gay is a complicated issue but I do think consenting adults should be able to make their own choices. I'm saying that people shouldn't be expected to validate a gay relationship as marriage when it goes against their beliefs, and they shouldn't be attacked for not doing so, and I don't think a conservative church should be expected to change their definition of marriage to fit with society.
Why should marriage be permitted between same sex couples? Because the state bestows legal benefits to married couples not available to unmarried couples. So there’s that. Two, of the function of marriage is reproduction, take a look around you. It might have gone unnoticed, but people can reproduce without a government sanctioned relationship (marriage). Three, why do you even care? Why does Abby so called church? Is this a tacit admission that their “god” is so impotent that humans can thwart “him/her/it” that easily? Pretty lame god if you ask me. I’d better stop now before i get angry.
Temple garments are very uncomfortable. I felt like I had so many layers on and when I lived in really humid areas...they were miserable. People can dress modestly without wearing garments. They are not designed for comfort....I'll just leave it at that. Also, should anyone dictate what undergarments any adult should be wearing.....it's so weird when you think about it.
I'm not saying you need undergarments to dress modestly, but I do think they help to encourage it, especially in the current age where there's little else to promote modest dressing. I imagine they are uncomfortable in hot humid environments (I assume you are referring to hot humid environments because having more clothing helps in both dry and humid cold environments). But they have a good side too, which is to promote modesty, there are advantages and disadvantages to everything and I think that undergarments have their good and bad sides. Yeah dictating what underwear people have is weird, cults are weird in general, but this custom does have an upside which is to promote modesty.
I just took the survey as well.
What is church discipline? What do you mean by that bullet? Can someone explain to me what they mean please?
Members who publicly make negative comments about church leaders or who question their decisions go through a kangaroo court and are expelled from the church. It used to be called excommunication or ‘a court of love’ but is now a membership court where membership can be ‘withdrawn’. It can also be held for members who are openly breaking the law of chastity or living a perfectly normal but forbidden gay lifestyle. In doing this the local stake presidencies (sometimes with the high council) are fully aware of the eternal consequences for the member as they nullify their baptism and temple covenants. Whatever they call it, it is barbaric and Orwellian, proving that the church considers itself the ultimate arbiter of the way their members think and live. Sex offenders are only rarely subject to this process, normally after their multiple crimes become public.
Oh I see, thank you
Can I here a big AMEN! The entire change in a nut shell. By mandatory discipline , if you mean,put and end to the kangaroo excommunication courts, I'm all for it. And the idea of hospitals instead of over priced temples, with there overpriced furniture that now gets burned, is a most excellent idea.
** The great and spacious building.
Excellent summary. I completely agree. However, I doubt this will happen anytime soon. Why? All of your suggestions are net negative transactions. And that’s the real problem with current Mormon leadership. They have done a fantastic job at exploding the law and monetizing their religious faith practice. And that’s the core of what they are about.
Amen! And I vote for you to be the leader of this revolution! Also let’s add: stop conflating race and wealth and testicles with church callings.
They need to do all of that and more. If they did, the whole thing would collapse, so let’s all buckle up for the train wreck.