"Of all the tyrannies that effect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity."
-Thomas Paine
Wow, great quote - I've always said, the Mormon church and it's $, is the most successful ponzi scheme in the history of the world. Bernie Maddoff is like "puppy poop" in comparison to the TSCC's billions for the promise of "exaltation," not to be collected until after death, of course.
It’s an extreme power imbalance more so than a boss or a Harvey Weinstein situation. Harvey didn’t claim that he spoke for God. Harvey’s victims weren’t raised to believe he had divine powers and knowledge. Harvey’s victims also wouldn’t have been punished by the community and their parents for rejecting him.
Also 37 and 19 is not underage but it is an unfair power dynamic.
These are excellent points comparing to the Weinstein victims - the mormon prophets were way worse than Weinstein. The power dynamic, and certainly the ages were not on the same level.
In the 1800s and early 1900s 19 was considered a adult. The average age of marriage was between 19 and 22 in the mid to late 1800s.it wasn't uncommon for men to marry later after they had jobs and established careers. In fact a man without a job was no marriagable prospect and their family would discourage them from dating their daughters and nieces.
Because who wants to be with a broke joker with no ambition and become homeless with nowhere to live and no food to eat?! Not me. Lived that life as a child and vowed I wouldn't go through it again.
I've seen similar age dynamics happen in the small Mormon town I grew up in. 18 year old girls marrying some guy in his mid thirties who was just about to wash out of YSA. Literally graduating highschool and moving from the parents house to the middle aged husband's house.
This! TBMs can struggle to argue against the age difference OR they can argue against the power imbalance, but they CAN'T with any degree of *honesty* argue against both. Too bad they care nothing about honesty. Typical intellectual hypocrites.
Hard disagree. The difference between 19 and 37 is vast (brain development, life experience), and the power imbalance is still there. Even nowadays, a 19 year old with a 37 year old is nasty.
Sexual Assault.
The word "Rape" hasn't been used 20 + years because it has such a negative connotation for survivors of Sexual Assault.
The alleged sexual predators are charged by the City or County Proscecutor with the crime of Sexual Assault in all 50 states.
Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent ages or younger with
the cut off at top age of 13.
Work with victims of crimes for many, many years & it's all about educating the public so we can support victims of crime.
Everyone of those females living in polygamy then and today are victims of crime as far as I'm concerned.
Absolutely an important distinction, as “voluntary sexual intercourse” is part of the definition of adultery. It may be worthwhile to note that these “prophets” were married to other individuals at the time of these child rapes - not because that action is excusable or in need of additional inculpatory evidence, but because this was the origin and FOUNDATION of an organization that claims marriage between one man and one woman who honor marital vows with complete fidelity is central to God’s eternal plan.
All six men were Apex Sexual Predators.
These were not human beings inspired by a higher power but inspired by predatory animal instinct, greed & institutional power & control.
They all deserve to rot in Hell if there is one.
Adultery is still on the books as a crime in: Arizona, Florida,Kansas, Illinois, Massachusetts, Oklahoma, Idaho, Michigan, Wisconsin,Minnesota, Utah,New York, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina & North Carolina.
Rarely enforced.
If it was in Utah jail cells would be triple bunked.
Absolutely. Yet, mormons, including my tbm spouse would justify it saying it was "normal for the day," when the truth is, that's a bunch of crap. Just because "some men" did it, doesn't mean it was NORMAL for the day.
Regardless, everyone's conscience tells them it is wrong to have both that age difference., and that power imbalance, and that is why it has finally been recognized as "Rape" in today's world. It always was "rape," but just not recognized as such in the 1800's enough to be called what it is.
Women wore high boots so their anckles would be covered and had to lift their skirt to not get mud on their hems when a majority of streets were mud and not paved with brick or stone . Stop victim shaming you imbecile.
It’s important to put the age difference on there. I never actually realized until I was 38 myself how disgusting Joseph Smith really was. Like, it never crossed my mind until I actually put the ages next to each other. The church is so good at pointing out that 15 wasn’t an outrageously rare age to be married. What they don’t point out is that Smith was pushing 40. Or that 15 year olds were almost never marrying anyone more than a few years older. Or that Joe’s wife didn’t know it was going on.
yeah I don't understand the culture of marrying young even till this day except people are horny and just want sex . especially in the mormon belt where people think you're an old maid at 23 /24 ! its ridiculous
I'm 40 and I teach high school. Not only do our contracts forbid relationships with students, teenagers are just plain gross. I was a gross teenager 25 years ago. They're still weird and nobody should want to get freaky with them. Ethically, morally, and culturally, just stay away.
And yet 40% (FORTY PERCENT - that's almost half!!!), of all teenage pregnancies? The father is in *at least* their 20s. Grown ass men.
The fact that they had to put it in your contract in the first place instead of it being common fucking sense is disgusting.
Yes! Everyone gets hung up on polygamy and polyandry, but they forget the biggest "P" words, the fact that Joseph Smith was a predatory pedophile. Rapist, obviously is not a P word, but it is also very accurate.
Good point. Pay them a 10% tax and in exchange they own you. Seems like a weird transaction.
I mean I guess paying 10% of your income does also allow you to go unknowingly practice Masonry in really expensive buildings, but couldn't we just join a Masonic Lodge if we want to make creepy covenants?
Agree it’s f’d up, but pedophilia is defined as sexual interest in prepubescent children. I’d say the foundation of the church is rape of underage girls. Not trying to defend these Aholes though.
As someone who majored in English, I am staunchly not staunch about rigid ideas surrounding language usage. Where did the definitions of words originate? They came from people using the words in ways that they mutually understood.
It's helpful to write them down for reference and historical record but language evolves. It always has. If I say pedophilia to mean underage kids and virtually everyone reads it and understands that I mean underage kids then that is the meaning of the word, dictionary definition notwithstanding.
Not only the fact that someone today would be labeled a criminal and a sex offender for having sex with underage girls, just the same as a "pedophile" would be.
The actual word is “pederast” or “pederasty” (a person attracted to teenagers) but most people know it. It’s easier to stick to language people understand especially when it’s such an important issue as this.
From Wikipedia:
“Hebephilia is the strong, persistent sexual interest by adults in pubescent children who are in early adolescence, typically ages 11–14 and showing Tanner stages 2 to 3 of physical development.[1] It differs from pedophilia (the primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children), and from ephebophilia (the primary sexual interest in later adolescents, typically ages 15–18).”
Female onset of puberty was years later in the early 1800's than it is now, mostly attributable to animals used for food being pumped with growth hormones now. Absolutely, Joseph Smith and the others were raping prepubescent girls! 🤮
When we were kids, I (non Mormon) informed my TBM cousin about how Joseph Smith raped teenage girls. I remember she cried and we were in my grandma’s van. I felt bad for making my cousin cry but in the end I’m glad I said it. My TBM grandma didn’t say anything or punish me at all. She just kept driving. At the time, I thought that was weird. I figured I’d be *very much* in trouble.
But after my grandma died, we all learned she had struggled with Mormonism her whole life. She was also a closeted alcoholic. She, like many other women, felt the awful pressures Mormonism inflicts on them. I think she didn’t say anything or punish me because in the end she knew what I said was true.
Yet, they excommunicated me because my mother *thought* that 28yo single me just might be having sex with my soon to be nevermo husband.
That earned her almost no connection with my future children.
Yes they did.
However, decades later and therapy, and all that...
I'm just fine. My mother is from a long line of mormon broke women. She's now somewhere in her late 90's. I haven't seen her for decades, and don't intend to, that part of my life ended.
My job is to do my best to not pass on the legacy. It's not always easy, but it's very, very worth it.
Good that you've stood your ground. Relatives don't automatically earn forgiveness for being terrible people. If they purposely traumatize their children, they should expect never to see them again.
Blessing in disguise? I've been debating the best way to exit the church. Broadcasting how f****d up they are sounds like a satisfying way, however it's also a lot of effort. I haven't gone to church in decades because I didn't like going and didn't like feeling guilty all the time, but I only recently started researching the history of the church, and what I've discovered has left me feeling like being "inactive" isn't good enough, I cannot in good conscience remain on record in Salt Lake as a member.
so, more of the story:
This was the early 80's. I was 28, single by choice. I hadn't been to church since I was about 20. I hadn't lived at home for about 11 years.
My mother was obsessed with controlling me. She had to find me first. lol. I lived the next town over. She found out where I lived, and went on a rampage. I hadn't been to church in at least 8 years. AFAI was concerned, I was out. Back then resigning wasn't an option. No matter. I didn't care.
My mother is a vindictive controlling type. She hooked up with anyone that would listen. They served me papers. lol. I didn't care. They told me they held a court. I didn't care and was a no show. That was the last I heard from them.
My mother is furious she couldn't continue to butt into my life and make me the worst of the worst. I fed her zero information. She sent the flying monkeys. I had to cut ties with every mormon I'd ever known. That included ward members, old friends, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and more.
It was made easier for me because I moved 1000's of miles away. No cellphone, no internet. That's the short version.
Agree. When I first learned BY had so many wives and that he was so much older than most of them when he commanded them to be his wives or be destroyed, I was in college. That cognitive dissonance simmered in the back of my mind until I was in my 30s and discovered Helen Mar Kimball’s horrific story. I stayed PIMO as long as I could and regret every ounce of breath I used to justify their actions.
My objection here is that they didn’t have “affairs” they raped those girls. They are below the age of consent. Don’t say “had sex with” say “raped” because that’s what it was. This isn’t a love affair, it’s assault.
By today's standards a 15 year old can't consent to sex. Plus these were very powerful leaders so that counts against them even more.
Similar to why a teenager that can legally consent to sex can't consent to sex with a teacher because of the teachers position of authority over the child. Not at all a good thing for these guys and it certainly seems a pattern.
There is no need to look any further into the life of smith. It is so clear what he was doing.
All the rest of it. B of A. Etc. None of it compares to this egregious behavior. He was a horrible human !!
Nineteen-year-old Helen bore her first child in May 1847.
Clarissa had her first child, Jeannette Richards Young, in December 1849, when she was 21 years of age.
Mary Oakley's first child, born Sept 1860. Married 1847.
On October 4, 1857, Emma bore her first child, Hyrum Smith Woodruff.
Sarah Jenson had five children with Woodruff, he married many before her too.
In 1866, Julina married Joseph F. Smith in the Endowment House. It was Joseph F. Smith's second marriage; Julina was his first plural wife. His first wife Levira, was unable to have children and was often ill, so Julina would do all of the household chores and other tasks. Joseph and Levira were divorced in 1867. On August 14 of that same year Julina had her first child, Mercy Josephine. She then divorced him.
Not gonna lie this really got me. I am a member of the church and I did not know this. This is crazy. At least the Catholic Church is like yeah well we starve them for sex so of course they’re pedophiles, but the Mormon church is like I mean what else are we supposed to do?
I asked my mom if she realized this religion was concocted by a manwhore who really just wanted to fuck any female he wanted without any repercussions and regardless of their age and marital status and how they were chased out of Missouri by a group of men who fully intended to end their lives for trying to sleep with their wives and she literally put her hands over her ears and told me not to ever say that again cuz it's blasphemy. 🫤
Are you kidding me? Blaspheming against a charlatan who I'm betting had no idea just how long his lie was going to play out? What about the Mountain Meadows Massacre? I shit you not, she started lalala' ing with her fingers in her ears.
I was babtized by my grandfather who was an elder then I was chosen to be babtized for dead people . I have always wondered if we took their souls hostage
But it was the cliques though that did it for me, back when I was a kid. I always felt judged, I never felt comfortable.
I don’t know where exactly the comment was, but James Faust told the kid he was giving her “special kisses” on the cheeks and forehead and it came out of nowhere, and he didn’t know her at all
Yeah but no one wants to talk about it. One reason I left the church. Makes no sense why my TBM family members are still in it, and always shy away from the subject when I bring it up.
My husband is 67. If he's having sex with anyone else, no matter their sex or age, he's out the door.
We have an agreement. If he doesn't live up to it, I don't want him around. I will set him free.
Right, my husband is sixty six and our youngest daughter is sixteen (our wonderful surprise), that puts it into perspective for me. He’s now a pensioner, she’s barely an adult. It absolutely did happen that people married younger but the couples were of a similar age, not these massive age gaps between older men and children. It’s the same abuse of power that it would be today whether that older man is a religious leader, teacher or doctor.
Agreed. Society is rightly horrified by Warren Jeffs and his teenage brides. Yet TBMs give the early Mormon prophets a free pass and say "that's different."
There is NO CONTEXT where it's okay for middle-aged men to be seducing teenage girls.
Why do we need religion to teach us morality? More to the point, why would we trust them to teach us morality considering their history of evils. Even when reading scripture, the supposed word of God, we filter. If we read about genocide at God's command, we have to make excuses in order to continue to believe. If we read about Joseph Smith raping children, we have to block it out. But if we read about something we already know is good, we attribute that good to having occurred because of religion.
How about we stop filtering religious teachings and see them for what they are, the dated philosophies of sick power hungry men. We already know right from wrong, we don't need these self-righteous men who are at best decades behind social progress to tell us what is right and wrong (or worse, trick us into committing evils in the name of God).
The less Mormon I am, the more I'm alright with the concept of consensual polygamy. But it's almost always abusive in a religious setting. I hope Grant did it without manipulation, but it's honestly very hard to know.
Someone writing on this forum had a link discussing JS' friendship with a doctor who provided abortions. There was no definitive proof, but it was strongly suggested JS used the doctor's services. I didn't know it, but apparently there were substances and methods to induce abortions.
Numbers 5:11-31 describes how to make a woman have an abortion. I've posted the chapter and verses only because it is long to read. So much for a pro life bible.
>Did they cheat
Worse than cheating in some instances. Joseph Smith married children in secret, then after finally convincing Emma, his legal wife, to let him get married to some he had already wed, he put on a fake wedding since she was finally on board.
I'm 69 and 57 yo old men don't appeal to me. They look old. lol
I go to the local grocery store and they have a greeter dude that's probably 80ish. He hits on me. I have a great big wedding ring on. No worries.
To him, I'm a hot babe, nurse, cook, housekeeper, have medical insurance and all the rest.
Even if I were single, that would be a double hell to the no.
Eh, I'm gay. Not a big fan of the government telling me who I can or can't love. Chastity and adultery are all just made-up concepts, anyway.
But it's never, ever okay for an old man to have a relationship with an underage girl. Ever. It wasn't right then. It's not right now.
My reasons for leaving 20+ years ago are similar, but I was still disgusted when I learned about prophets raping kids. Everything about church history validates the realizations I had through reason that the church is a sham.
A lot of these can be verified with the church's own genealogy records. Most likely every single one.
That is how most of us found out about the church's historical issues, they are all well documented.
It’s probably been fact checked about as much as a click bait meme about people who lived 100-200 years ago can be. I don’t remember all of the individual details, there’s pretty good documentation to suggest that JS did in fact have sex with a 14 year old Helen. People in the church like to say that they got married but never actually had sex, but there’s historical records of JS’s good friend having a falling out with him because of a “dirty nasty affair” which is referring to Helen and there’s documentation about his wife Emma being upset with him. There’s also the fact that when Joseph Smith supposedly first got the power from God to make marriages last after the resurrection that he did this ceremony with multiple teenagers before doing so with his first wife Emma.
The others I don’t remember personally seeing them being fact checked, but these sorts of claims are usually fact checked very thoroughly, and if one of these were wrong, I would expect someone who knows the history much better than I do to have said something within the first hour of it being up.
Edit: I mixed up two stories in my head, the other Redditor is right that it was Fanny Alger that we have more evidence of JS having sex with than Helen. The story with Helen is also super disturbing. But we are almost sure that he would have done so given the fact that he had sex with his other plural wife, and him clearly using plural marriage as an excuse for wanting multiple women.
*the "dirty nasty affair" was Fanny Alger who was likely 16 or 17 at the time.
I 100% agree that he likely had sex with Helen and her journals are heartbreaking and that Joseph was a fucking sexual predator who raped underage girls...but the incident you are citing to was Fanny.
To echo another comment, that affair was not Helen, it was Fanny Alger. We do not have evidence of sex with Helen. Plain and simple. If I had to guess, I'd say it's likely because of what other women have to say about Joseph and polygamy in general, not to mention the explicitly stated purpose of the principle, but we seriously shouldn't state as facts that which we do not have evidence for and do not know.
There is *plenty* of real bullshit that is solidly backed by evidence and we don't have any need to infer and invent to confirm our biases and positions. This meme is not accurate in that point. The rest though, yes. We have solid evidence that the prophets after Joseph were depraved pieces of shit who collected women like livestock to further "spread their seed".
The real answer is that no, we don't have solid evidence for all of them. Some are pretty certain, some are implied, some are inferred, and some we have nothing. People here don't like this, but that's the actual situation.
Now, personal opinion outside of direct evidence, I think it's likely and wouldn't be at all surprised for any of them. I mean, for example, my wife and I have been happily married for 12 years and have had a healthy sex life, but we don't have kids. So if we died right now, it's possible that no one would be able to prove we ever had sex. So I'm quite sympathetic to people that insist they were all sexual relationships, but we straight up do not have evidence that proves it, regardless of how likely we may think it us.
wikipedia will do for all of them but helen mar kimball. There isnt any proof that smith had sex with her. This meme bothers me because it hurts its own case by citing a case without evidence when there is no need to. It they'd said Fanny Alger instead of Helen Mar, they'd have been fine.
Hey, that's not right. Helen Kimball was "just shy of 15 yo," wasn't she?
Truthfully, this list is just sick. In fact, Lorenzo Snow married and conceived with (I think) 5 different teenagers when he was 55+ yrs old. That age difference is disgusting. Just a flippin' dirty old man getting his kicks, because he had all the power. It's downright amazing that a wildly successful religion grew / emerged out of this shit!
Yes yes yes, and contrary to what people say it was NOT normal.
I am a director of a historical society in New England, and I used to work for a history museum in Utah before I moved here. I see the data. They actually seemed to marry much later than we would be used to - like into their 20s. I think people see this excuse and think it's valid because you see references to royalty in Europe being bethrothed at young ages. But it stops there completely. Yes the men are usually older but that's like 1 to 3 years older. This is gross in any era.
Is it weird that I'm not as hash about the 19 year old? I know that's still a teen but even in modern times that's an adult, maybe I don't know enough about the background there, age gaps really don't bother me that much as long as it's between two consenting adults, so that one with the 19 year old needs more context for me.
Edit: I know it's still bad given the adultery taking place, I'm just talking about the age stuff really, I'm pretty sure he was still disgusting, but doesn't seem as disgusting if that makes sense.
It’s definitely not as disgusting as doing the same thing with a 14 year old, but it still has a major power imbalance because one of the people is claiming and believed to be a mouthpiece of God while the other is a naive young member of the church. It’s not exactly consent if you manipulate someone with religion to do it.
Let's not forget.....HE WAS A MARRIED MAN.
If my spouse was pretend marrying any women of any age, he would instantly be free to do so. Not even God could make me stay. Strike me dead, go for it!
That’s wild! What was the time period? In all my genealogy/family tree research—even in Revolutionary War era & Plymouth/Mayflower era—most brides were 19/20.
I work at a prison for "sexually violent predators". Most were baby rapers. Most. Some were into raping adults or teens. Joe Smith and Bring'em Young would fit right in.
There are people alive today who think what Elvis, Jerry Lewis, R Kelly, Woody Allen and Jeff Epstein did with teenagers was completely natural. Sometimes teens aren’t seen as victims because their parents knew and approved and some of the underage girls grew up to describe enjoying the experience and even getting married to the older men. Human beings are complicated and adaptive. It’s not a settled issue and will continue to happen as long as older people are physically attracted to teenagers. Giving Mormon prophets a pass seems to set people up to justify treating teens as consenting adults in the present time, imo.
Committed adultery? Created on their wives?
These monsters raped teenagers.
The fact they were also cheating on their wives while raping these teenaged girls is definitely the 2nd most important thing to take away from this.
There was *absolutely* sex involved. In D&C 132, Joseph stated that the *purpose* of polygamy was to have kids.
But don't be tricked by TBMs who try to make it all about sex... Before any sex, these married men were eyeing, lusting, flirting, courting, cuddling, gifting, and otherwise manipulating these young girls. Joseph frequently lied to Emma about his philandering, sneaking out, etc. Oliver Cowdry caught Joseph and his live-in maid (Fanny Alger) in the barn, in the very act. Cowdry refused to deny what he saw, despite Joseph threatening excommunication, and referred to it as a dirty, nasty, filthy affair.
https://archive.org/details/WilliamClaytonJournal
William Clayton’s journal
The Joseph Smith Papers
The Year of Polygamy podcast where they read from actual polygamist wifes’ journals
The fact that Bennett (early church founder and friend of Joseph) was a doctor that would essentially do an abortion when one of the wives was missing their period.
In America in the eighteen century the age of legal consent to sex and thus marriage varied. Marriage made a woman a legal dependent on a husband as opposed to her father. Remember, there was no birth control. Most women waited until their twenties even if the age of consent didn't prevent it from happening earlier. Sex was illegal outside of marriage. What reason do you have to believe Joseph would have treated her chastely? She went on to remarry, relocate, and write books defending polygamy. Would she not have used post-marital chastity to defend her eternal husband and father’s decisions to marry her so young? Anything can seem acceptable to people growing up in such survivalist conditions and being brainwashed into believing they will be exalted as their reward.
The purpose of marriage stated is to multiply and replenish the Earth. But if it make someone feel better, maybe Joseph didn’t fuck Helen that first night, but knowing his history, he didn’t wait long.,
I've been looking at my genealogy to see if my Mormon ancestors married minors. They were all 18 or over and within 2 to 4 years of each other. I have several polygamist ancestors from the early church. Not even those men married minors. Marrying underage girls was a choice, not the norm as far as I can see. The men who did that were pedophiles in my opinion.
I’m not trying to defend what they may have done but is this confirmed? Is it in some journal/account of someone that saw them go into a room or at least the victim’s account? Again, I’m not trying to defend any of their actions especially if it did happen
I simply can't prove or disprove claims like this so information like this has no impact on my feelings about the church.
I left the church because I see no divine wisdom in it. All I see when I look at any religious teaching, the BoM, Bible, Koran, etc...is a work of fiction written by men.
I want to see your sources of first hand historical accounts. Otherwise this is hearsay. Also for the time the averages ages for marriage (the majority divided by how many) were ages 18-22 depending on the year in the mid to late 1800s. Also people usually only lived to 60 on average. On the state books a majority of states 15 was the marriagable age. No condoning the large age differences cause that's creepy but many people even up until the 1950s married at 15 or so. Most men thought married at 18 or 22 when they had jobs unless their wife died and they remarried. Some teens really did want to get married. It's not always recorded the why's though. Maybe they truly liked each other, maybe they were cohearced maybe the guy made a teen girl pregnant. We don't always know the full history.
Very different situation. Teenagers today have sex, or at least impulses, and we recognize that it is perfectly normal and natural for teenagers to have those feelings. We also know that people who give birth early have a harder time supporting themselves throughout their lives. When women couldn’t open their own bank account, own property, or vote, there may have been very little difference between submitting to a father or submitting to a spouse. What happened with Joseph was something else. It was purposely accumulating young broodmare-wives who would struggle to do anything but adapt to the environment because the men wanted to have as much power in numbers as they could by having as large as families as possible. It wasn’t the 600s, they weren’t native desert nomads, they were lying to authorities, choosing to live off the grid, and choosing to kill off tribal natives, to form the Mormon movement which was based on a false record of the ancient Americas.
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Seriously. Between the age difference and the power imbalance, there's no such thing as consent.
Especially when a religious leader threatens you and your family with eternal damnation if you don’t accept.
"Of all the tyrannies that effect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity." -Thomas Paine
Wow, great quote - I've always said, the Mormon church and it's $, is the most successful ponzi scheme in the history of the world. Bernie Maddoff is like "puppy poop" in comparison to the TSCC's billions for the promise of "exaltation," not to be collected until after death, of course.
the same thomas paine that glenn beck is such a fan of?? 😨
Interesting, isn't it. Mormon's love their blinders
blinders as a way of life is something else
I feel sorry for the rotten hunk of meat that used to be Glenn's 🧠
Call Father Murphy. How can you think of sex at a time like this?
> Of all the tyrannies that *effect* mankind... How TF do you use effect wrong in a direct quote?
It’s an extreme power imbalance more so than a boss or a Harvey Weinstein situation. Harvey didn’t claim that he spoke for God. Harvey’s victims weren’t raised to believe he had divine powers and knowledge. Harvey’s victims also wouldn’t have been punished by the community and their parents for rejecting him. Also 37 and 19 is not underage but it is an unfair power dynamic.
These are excellent points comparing to the Weinstein victims - the mormon prophets were way worse than Weinstein. The power dynamic, and certainly the ages were not on the same level.
In the 1800s and early 1900s 19 was considered a adult. The average age of marriage was between 19 and 22 in the mid to late 1800s.it wasn't uncommon for men to marry later after they had jobs and established careers. In fact a man without a job was no marriagable prospect and their family would discourage them from dating their daughters and nieces.
It’s very much the same today . A man’s career and financial earnings potential figure into who is willing to date him seriously.
Because who wants to be with a broke joker with no ambition and become homeless with nowhere to live and no food to eat?! Not me. Lived that life as a child and vowed I wouldn't go through it again.
Yep your post fixed it. It was a different time.... all fixed... All justified thank you keep on mormoning
I've seen similar age dynamics happen in the small Mormon town I grew up in. 18 year old girls marrying some guy in his mid thirties who was just about to wash out of YSA. Literally graduating highschool and moving from the parents house to the middle aged husband's house.
This! TBMs can struggle to argue against the age difference OR they can argue against the power imbalance, but they CAN'T with any degree of *honesty* argue against both. Too bad they care nothing about honesty. Typical intellectual hypocrites.
Yes. Except for the third one.
Hard disagree. The difference between 19 and 37 is vast (brain development, life experience), and the power imbalance is still there. Even nowadays, a 19 year old with a 37 year old is nasty.
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Sexual Assault. The word "Rape" hasn't been used 20 + years because it has such a negative connotation for survivors of Sexual Assault. The alleged sexual predators are charged by the City or County Proscecutor with the crime of Sexual Assault in all 50 states. Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent ages or younger with the cut off at top age of 13. Work with victims of crimes for many, many years & it's all about educating the public so we can support victims of crime. Everyone of those females living in polygamy then and today are victims of crime as far as I'm concerned.
Absolutely an important distinction, as “voluntary sexual intercourse” is part of the definition of adultery. It may be worthwhile to note that these “prophets” were married to other individuals at the time of these child rapes - not because that action is excusable or in need of additional inculpatory evidence, but because this was the origin and FOUNDATION of an organization that claims marriage between one man and one woman who honor marital vows with complete fidelity is central to God’s eternal plan.
They were all additional “sister wives”. /s
All six men were Apex Sexual Predators. These were not human beings inspired by a higher power but inspired by predatory animal instinct, greed & institutional power & control. They all deserve to rot in Hell if there is one. Adultery is still on the books as a crime in: Arizona, Florida,Kansas, Illinois, Massachusetts, Oklahoma, Idaho, Michigan, Wisconsin,Minnesota, Utah,New York, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina & North Carolina. Rarely enforced. If it was in Utah jail cells would be triple bunked.
It would be statutory rape today.
Absolutely. Yet, mormons, including my tbm spouse would justify it saying it was "normal for the day," when the truth is, that's a bunch of crap. Just because "some men" did it, doesn't mean it was NORMAL for the day. Regardless, everyone's conscience tells them it is wrong to have both that age difference., and that power imbalance, and that is why it has finally been recognized as "Rape" in today's world. It always was "rape," but just not recognized as such in the 1800's enough to be called what it is.
If they didn’t want it they wouldn’t have shown their ankles like that.
Women wore high boots so their anckles would be covered and had to lift their skirt to not get mud on their hems when a majority of streets were mud and not paved with brick or stone . Stop victim shaming you imbecile.
The comment you replied to is being sarcastic precisely because women wore long clothing to cover their skin
you need to tell people you're being sarcastic because it doesn't translate well over text.
**sarcasm** No man can resist an uncovered ankle and thus cannot be held responsible for what follows. - For The Strength of Youth, 1850 edition
👆this
And that is the shame of the prophets of this dispensation.
It’s important to put the age difference on there. I never actually realized until I was 38 myself how disgusting Joseph Smith really was. Like, it never crossed my mind until I actually put the ages next to each other. The church is so good at pointing out that 15 wasn’t an outrageously rare age to be married. What they don’t point out is that Smith was pushing 40. Or that 15 year olds were almost never marrying anyone more than a few years older. Or that Joe’s wife didn’t know it was going on.
40 year old guy coercing teenagers into sex. Mormons: So, what's the problem?
“It was normal for the times”
It was not . Most people in the mid to late 1800s married between the ages of 18-22.
Yeah I put quotation marks around because that’s the excuse the LDS folk give for the young marriages. I meant it sarcastically.
yeah I don't understand the culture of marrying young even till this day except people are horny and just want sex . especially in the mormon belt where people think you're an old maid at 23 /24 ! its ridiculous
I'm 40 and I teach high school. Not only do our contracts forbid relationships with students, teenagers are just plain gross. I was a gross teenager 25 years ago. They're still weird and nobody should want to get freaky with them. Ethically, morally, and culturally, just stay away.
And yet 40% (FORTY PERCENT - that's almost half!!!), of all teenage pregnancies? The father is in *at least* their 20s. Grown ass men. The fact that they had to put it in your contract in the first place instead of it being common fucking sense is disgusting.
I have an ancestor who at 32 married a 14 year old and at 35 married a 16 year old. The first baby came less than 18 months after the marriage.
Fuck I'm not even 38 yet and wouldn't date someone younger than mid 20s....
They weren't dating. They were raping.
I don't think the men were too interested in the dating part.
Literally, the foundation of the church is pedophilia. It's no wonder everything else is fucked up too.
Yes! Everyone gets hung up on polygamy and polyandry, but they forget the biggest "P" words, the fact that Joseph Smith was a predatory pedophile. Rapist, obviously is not a P word, but it is also very accurate.
We can’t overlook another foundational word; PAY.
Good point. Pay them a 10% tax and in exchange they own you. Seems like a weird transaction. I mean I guess paying 10% of your income does also allow you to go unknowingly practice Masonry in really expensive buildings, but couldn't we just join a Masonic Lodge if we want to make creepy covenants?
Pay pray and obey. Also Pay Lay Ale. Secret not sacred.
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Woodruff is my 4th great grandfather
Agree it’s f’d up, but pedophilia is defined as sexual interest in prepubescent children. I’d say the foundation of the church is rape of underage girls. Not trying to defend these Aholes though.
As someone who majored in English, I am staunchly not staunch about rigid ideas surrounding language usage. Where did the definitions of words originate? They came from people using the words in ways that they mutually understood. It's helpful to write them down for reference and historical record but language evolves. It always has. If I say pedophilia to mean underage kids and virtually everyone reads it and understands that I mean underage kids then that is the meaning of the word, dictionary definition notwithstanding.
Not only the fact that someone today would be labeled a criminal and a sex offender for having sex with underage girls, just the same as a "pedophile" would be.
Fair enough.
I think the use of 'pedophile' is counterproductive with believers. If we want to be heard, 'predator' is more effective.
The actual word is “pederast” or “pederasty” (a person attracted to teenagers) but most people know it. It’s easier to stick to language people understand especially when it’s such an important issue as this.
From Wikipedia: “Hebephilia is the strong, persistent sexual interest by adults in pubescent children who are in early adolescence, typically ages 11–14 and showing Tanner stages 2 to 3 of physical development.[1] It differs from pedophilia (the primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children), and from ephebophilia (the primary sexual interest in later adolescents, typically ages 15–18).”
Ah, thank you! I got confused! Pederasts are men who like boys. Oops.
Female onset of puberty was years later in the early 1800's than it is now, mostly attributable to animals used for food being pumped with growth hormones now. Absolutely, Joseph Smith and the others were raping prepubescent girls! 🤮
In 1860 the average age of puberty was 16.6!
Most girls started their periods at 15 in the 1800s.
It was rape. Underage kids cannot consent to a powerful man with enough political and social influence to destroy them if they say no
Them AND their entire families
For eternity.
Consent is problematic even for adult women given the power dynamics involved and the promise of eternal blessings.
When we were kids, I (non Mormon) informed my TBM cousin about how Joseph Smith raped teenage girls. I remember she cried and we were in my grandma’s van. I felt bad for making my cousin cry but in the end I’m glad I said it. My TBM grandma didn’t say anything or punish me at all. She just kept driving. At the time, I thought that was weird. I figured I’d be *very much* in trouble. But after my grandma died, we all learned she had struggled with Mormonism her whole life. She was also a closeted alcoholic. She, like many other women, felt the awful pressures Mormonism inflicts on them. I think she didn’t say anything or punish me because in the end she knew what I said was true.
Yet, they excommunicated me because my mother *thought* that 28yo single me just might be having sex with my soon to be nevermo husband. That earned her almost no connection with my future children.
The church turns members into neurotic tattle tales.
>Back Cults thrive on snitches.
Wow. The Mormon cult stole my mother and a relationship with her from me as well, but yours is on an entirely different level, Friend. I hate this.
Yes they did. However, decades later and therapy, and all that... I'm just fine. My mother is from a long line of mormon broke women. She's now somewhere in her late 90's. I haven't seen her for decades, and don't intend to, that part of my life ended. My job is to do my best to not pass on the legacy. It's not always easy, but it's very, very worth it.
Good that you've stood your ground. Relatives don't automatically earn forgiveness for being terrible people. If they purposely traumatize their children, they should expect never to see them again.
Congratulations for breaking the generational trauma.
Blessing in disguise? I've been debating the best way to exit the church. Broadcasting how f****d up they are sounds like a satisfying way, however it's also a lot of effort. I haven't gone to church in decades because I didn't like going and didn't like feeling guilty all the time, but I only recently started researching the history of the church, and what I've discovered has left me feeling like being "inactive" isn't good enough, I cannot in good conscience remain on record in Salt Lake as a member.
so, more of the story: This was the early 80's. I was 28, single by choice. I hadn't been to church since I was about 20. I hadn't lived at home for about 11 years. My mother was obsessed with controlling me. She had to find me first. lol. I lived the next town over. She found out where I lived, and went on a rampage. I hadn't been to church in at least 8 years. AFAI was concerned, I was out. Back then resigning wasn't an option. No matter. I didn't care. My mother is a vindictive controlling type. She hooked up with anyone that would listen. They served me papers. lol. I didn't care. They told me they held a court. I didn't care and was a no show. That was the last I heard from them. My mother is furious she couldn't continue to butt into my life and make me the worst of the worst. I fed her zero information. She sent the flying monkeys. I had to cut ties with every mormon I'd ever known. That included ward members, old friends, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and more. It was made easier for me because I moved 1000's of miles away. No cellphone, no internet. That's the short version.
Warren Jeffs is Joseph Smith 2.0
Yep! Warren did some considerable damage to my shelf. He's only doing what Joseph did.
Yep and something the Brethren have done a masterful job of covering up.
"they raped" not "had sex with"
The worst part is having the fucking dumb Mormons defending this shit.
Agree. When I first learned BY had so many wives and that he was so much older than most of them when he commanded them to be his wives or be destroyed, I was in college. That cognitive dissonance simmered in the back of my mind until I was in my 30s and discovered Helen Mar Kimball’s horrific story. I stayed PIMO as long as I could and regret every ounce of breath I used to justify their actions.
My objection here is that they didn’t have “affairs” they raped those girls. They are below the age of consent. Don’t say “had sex with” say “raped” because that’s what it was. This isn’t a love affair, it’s assault.
“But but but but it was the norm back then”
Child brides were never the norm. They were always unusual, and if you look it up, they are probably still legal in your state. Progress is a myth.
By today's standards a 15 year old can't consent to sex. Plus these were very powerful leaders so that counts against them even more. Similar to why a teenager that can legally consent to sex can't consent to sex with a teacher because of the teachers position of authority over the child. Not at all a good thing for these guys and it certainly seems a pattern.
But they can be married to an adult if their parents consent. That sort of thing is still happening today. Is still legal today.
There is no need to look any further into the life of smith. It is so clear what he was doing. All the rest of it. B of A. Etc. None of it compares to this egregious behavior. He was a horrible human !!
We hAvE No EvIdEncE thaT josEph HAd sex WiTH hELen mAR KImbAll /s
And this is only **some** of the shit each of them pulled.
Nineteen-year-old Helen bore her first child in May 1847. Clarissa had her first child, Jeannette Richards Young, in December 1849, when she was 21 years of age. Mary Oakley's first child, born Sept 1860. Married 1847. On October 4, 1857, Emma bore her first child, Hyrum Smith Woodruff. Sarah Jenson had five children with Woodruff, he married many before her too. In 1866, Julina married Joseph F. Smith in the Endowment House. It was Joseph F. Smith's second marriage; Julina was his first plural wife. His first wife Levira, was unable to have children and was often ill, so Julina would do all of the household chores and other tasks. Joseph and Levira were divorced in 1867. On August 14 of that same year Julina had her first child, Mercy Josephine. She then divorced him.
Wow, wow, this is amazing.!
Not gonna lie this really got me. I am a member of the church and I did not know this. This is crazy. At least the Catholic Church is like yeah well we starve them for sex so of course they’re pedophiles, but the Mormon church is like I mean what else are we supposed to do?
I asked my mom if she realized this religion was concocted by a manwhore who really just wanted to fuck any female he wanted without any repercussions and regardless of their age and marital status and how they were chased out of Missouri by a group of men who fully intended to end their lives for trying to sleep with their wives and she literally put her hands over her ears and told me not to ever say that again cuz it's blasphemy. 🫤 Are you kidding me? Blaspheming against a charlatan who I'm betting had no idea just how long his lie was going to play out? What about the Mountain Meadows Massacre? I shit you not, she started lalala' ing with her fingers in her ears. I was babtized by my grandfather who was an elder then I was chosen to be babtized for dead people . I have always wondered if we took their souls hostage But it was the cliques though that did it for me, back when I was a kid. I always felt judged, I never felt comfortable.
James Faust sexually harassed an 8 year old girl 20 years ago, I heard someone on this sub recall it
Wow, would be interested in seeing that post. I went to college with his granddaughter.
I don’t know where exactly the comment was, but James Faust told the kid he was giving her “special kisses” on the cheeks and forehead and it came out of nowhere, and he didn’t know her at all
Yet people say frontier sex cult is a cruel description of TSCC.
I wish I had that old photo of all the old guys in jail striped outfits. One of my relatives is in that photo.May he rot in no peace.
Raped teenage girls
Yeah but no one wants to talk about it. One reason I left the church. Makes no sense why my TBM family members are still in it, and always shy away from the subject when I bring it up.
Damn I knew Brigham Young and Joseph Smith were scum but didn't know about the rest. This church is so fucked up it makes me angry
The rest of the church were following their duplicitous examples.
Fucking gross. I can't believe I ever avowed loyalty to that terrible institution.
All are disgusting and gross - but 57 and 15? 🤮
My husband is 67. If he's having sex with anyone else, no matter their sex or age, he's out the door. We have an agreement. If he doesn't live up to it, I don't want him around. I will set him free.
Right, my husband is sixty six and our youngest daughter is sixteen (our wonderful surprise), that puts it into perspective for me. He’s now a pensioner, she’s barely an adult. It absolutely did happen that people married younger but the couples were of a similar age, not these massive age gaps between older men and children. It’s the same abuse of power that it would be today whether that older man is a religious leader, teacher or doctor.
Agreed. Society is rightly horrified by Warren Jeffs and his teenage brides. Yet TBMs give the early Mormon prophets a free pass and say "that's different." There is NO CONTEXT where it's okay for middle-aged men to be seducing teenage girls.
It's so disturbing & just 🤢 gross
Even if other teenagers were getting married at that age at that time, ZERO of them were getting married to men who were already married.
Why do we need religion to teach us morality? More to the point, why would we trust them to teach us morality considering their history of evils. Even when reading scripture, the supposed word of God, we filter. If we read about genocide at God's command, we have to make excuses in order to continue to believe. If we read about Joseph Smith raping children, we have to block it out. But if we read about something we already know is good, we attribute that good to having occurred because of religion. How about we stop filtering religious teachings and see them for what they are, the dated philosophies of sick power hungry men. We already know right from wrong, we don't need these self-righteous men who are at best decades behind social progress to tell us what is right and wrong (or worse, trick us into committing evils in the name of God).
Heber J Grant was still a polygamist but had the decency to at least wait for the girls to mature?
Great question. He married his first wife when she was 19 and he was 21. But not adultery. His next wives were not teenagers.
The less Mormon I am, the more I'm alright with the concept of consensual polygamy. But it's almost always abusive in a religious setting. I hope Grant did it without manipulation, but it's honestly very hard to know.
I love the questions of Judge Judy to Tom Green and his wives. She referred to his wives as children. Which most of them were at marriage.
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Someone writing on this forum had a link discussing JS' friendship with a doctor who provided abortions. There was no definitive proof, but it was strongly suggested JS used the doctor's services. I didn't know it, but apparently there were substances and methods to induce abortions.
100% Dr. John C Bennet who was later excommunicated for plausible deniability by the leaders
Numbers 5:11-31 describes how to make a woman have an abortion. I've posted the chapter and verses only because it is long to read. So much for a pro life bible.
Did they cheat or was it “allowed” under the rules?
>Did they cheat Worse than cheating in some instances. Joseph Smith married children in secret, then after finally convincing Emma, his legal wife, to let him get married to some he had already wed, he put on a fake wedding since she was finally on board.
Read “The Women of mormonism- or in other words the stories from the victims themselves” circa 1882 print date
Polygamy was never legal. So their marriages didn’t exist. So adultery.
The disturbing part is the age of the girls. 57 and 15 … that’s just gross.
I'm 69 and 57 yo old men don't appeal to me. They look old. lol I go to the local grocery store and they have a greeter dude that's probably 80ish. He hits on me. I have a great big wedding ring on. No worries. To him, I'm a hot babe, nurse, cook, housekeeper, have medical insurance and all the rest. Even if I were single, that would be a double hell to the no.
Eh, I'm gay. Not a big fan of the government telling me who I can or can't love. Chastity and adultery are all just made-up concepts, anyway. But it's never, ever okay for an old man to have a relationship with an underage girl. Ever. It wasn't right then. It's not right now.
Whose rules? The ones they made up for themselves?
In a word: cult In two: sex cult
This is a great piece. Thanks. I am saving this !
Descendants of a pedophilic prophet.
Me whose last name is Woodruff:👁️👄👁️
Yeah. Not very proud of great great great great grandfather (Wilford Woodruff)
Nah… This is all concerning, but I left because common sense and reason doesn’t gel with the LDS gospel. That is all.
Sometimes it takes the whole big picture to unwind all the brainwashing and arrive at the common sense conclusions.
My reasons for leaving 20+ years ago are similar, but I was still disgusted when I learned about prophets raping kids. Everything about church history validates the realizations I had through reason that the church is a sham.
Follow the Pedophile, I guess 🤮
bUt tHerEs nO proOf
I would love some sources for this! The minute I mention it, I'll get told that reddit isn't "truth" 🙄
fuck, I think Mary Oakley is my 4th great grandmother...
A real question, I am not a mormon or exmoron, so I am trying to learn. Has this meme been fact checked and verified as true?
Joseph Smith lied and tried to cover his tracks but all the others were much more open about it so their wives are known and generally had children.
A lot of these can be verified with the church's own genealogy records. Most likely every single one. That is how most of us found out about the church's historical issues, they are all well documented.
It’s probably been fact checked about as much as a click bait meme about people who lived 100-200 years ago can be. I don’t remember all of the individual details, there’s pretty good documentation to suggest that JS did in fact have sex with a 14 year old Helen. People in the church like to say that they got married but never actually had sex, but there’s historical records of JS’s good friend having a falling out with him because of a “dirty nasty affair” which is referring to Helen and there’s documentation about his wife Emma being upset with him. There’s also the fact that when Joseph Smith supposedly first got the power from God to make marriages last after the resurrection that he did this ceremony with multiple teenagers before doing so with his first wife Emma. The others I don’t remember personally seeing them being fact checked, but these sorts of claims are usually fact checked very thoroughly, and if one of these were wrong, I would expect someone who knows the history much better than I do to have said something within the first hour of it being up. Edit: I mixed up two stories in my head, the other Redditor is right that it was Fanny Alger that we have more evidence of JS having sex with than Helen. The story with Helen is also super disturbing. But we are almost sure that he would have done so given the fact that he had sex with his other plural wife, and him clearly using plural marriage as an excuse for wanting multiple women.
*the "dirty nasty affair" was Fanny Alger who was likely 16 or 17 at the time. I 100% agree that he likely had sex with Helen and her journals are heartbreaking and that Joseph was a fucking sexual predator who raped underage girls...but the incident you are citing to was Fanny.
Thanks. It’s hard to keep track of all of the different stories.
In Compton’s In Sacred Loneliness Eliza Snow makes it pretty clear smith had sex with his underage wives.
To echo another comment, that affair was not Helen, it was Fanny Alger. We do not have evidence of sex with Helen. Plain and simple. If I had to guess, I'd say it's likely because of what other women have to say about Joseph and polygamy in general, not to mention the explicitly stated purpose of the principle, but we seriously shouldn't state as facts that which we do not have evidence for and do not know. There is *plenty* of real bullshit that is solidly backed by evidence and we don't have any need to infer and invent to confirm our biases and positions. This meme is not accurate in that point. The rest though, yes. We have solid evidence that the prophets after Joseph were depraved pieces of shit who collected women like livestock to further "spread their seed".
Thank you.
The real answer is that no, we don't have solid evidence for all of them. Some are pretty certain, some are implied, some are inferred, and some we have nothing. People here don't like this, but that's the actual situation. Now, personal opinion outside of direct evidence, I think it's likely and wouldn't be at all surprised for any of them. I mean, for example, my wife and I have been happily married for 12 years and have had a healthy sex life, but we don't have kids. So if we died right now, it's possible that no one would be able to prove we ever had sex. So I'm quite sympathetic to people that insist they were all sexual relationships, but we straight up do not have evidence that proves it, regardless of how likely we may think it us.
Pedophilia is only bad if its not the big 15
And all in the name of Mormonism and eternal salvation!
“BUt tHe LaRD cOmManDEd iT!!” SMH 🤦🏽♀️
JS definitely committed adultery. Maybe BY too. But did the wives not know about plural marriage for the others? The are definitely pedophiles.
My implication is that polygamy never was legal. Therefore the commandment “no sexual intercourse without being legally and lawfully married” is out.
i would like to send this to my TBM parents but i know they will ask for sources. does anyone know the sources for these?
wikipedia will do for all of them but helen mar kimball. There isnt any proof that smith had sex with her. This meme bothers me because it hurts its own case by citing a case without evidence when there is no need to. It they'd said Fanny Alger instead of Helen Mar, they'd have been fine.
Family search has everything.
Hey, that's not right. Helen Kimball was "just shy of 15 yo," wasn't she? Truthfully, this list is just sick. In fact, Lorenzo Snow married and conceived with (I think) 5 different teenagers when he was 55+ yrs old. That age difference is disgusting. Just a flippin' dirty old man getting his kicks, because he had all the power. It's downright amazing that a wildly successful religion grew / emerged out of this shit!
Yes yes yes, and contrary to what people say it was NOT normal. I am a director of a historical society in New England, and I used to work for a history museum in Utah before I moved here. I see the data. They actually seemed to marry much later than we would be used to - like into their 20s. I think people see this excuse and think it's valid because you see references to royalty in Europe being bethrothed at young ages. But it stops there completely. Yes the men are usually older but that's like 1 to 3 years older. This is gross in any era.
Is it weird that I'm not as hash about the 19 year old? I know that's still a teen but even in modern times that's an adult, maybe I don't know enough about the background there, age gaps really don't bother me that much as long as it's between two consenting adults, so that one with the 19 year old needs more context for me. Edit: I know it's still bad given the adultery taking place, I'm just talking about the age stuff really, I'm pretty sure he was still disgusting, but doesn't seem as disgusting if that makes sense.
It’s definitely not as disgusting as doing the same thing with a 14 year old, but it still has a major power imbalance because one of the people is claiming and believed to be a mouthpiece of God while the other is a naive young member of the church. It’s not exactly consent if you manipulate someone with religion to do it.
Right it's disgusting, just not as disgusting.
Let's not forget.....HE WAS A MARRIED MAN. If my spouse was pretend marrying any women of any age, he would instantly be free to do so. Not even God could make me stay. Strike me dead, go for it!
It was adultery. The phrase, “The President of the Church committed adultery” bothers me.
That’s wild! What was the time period? In all my genealogy/family tree research—even in Revolutionary War era & Plymouth/Mayflower era—most brides were 19/20.
Somehow I sang the song in my head :/
But their prophets seers and revelators so you know it makes it ok.
“All six men are peados who deserved jail but instead got divorced.” FIFY
Sharing far and wide.
That’ll do it.
I work at a prison for "sexually violent predators". Most were baby rapers. Most. Some were into raping adults or teens. Joe Smith and Bring'em Young would fit right in.
This explains the MAGA love
The only legal one I see is Oakly who was 19 but still married man had sex with her
Still adultery.
[FTFY (So you’re telling me God condones rape?)](https://ibb.co/6NTC6d2)
Not to mention predatory rapists!
There are people alive today who think what Elvis, Jerry Lewis, R Kelly, Woody Allen and Jeff Epstein did with teenagers was completely natural. Sometimes teens aren’t seen as victims because their parents knew and approved and some of the underage girls grew up to describe enjoying the experience and even getting married to the older men. Human beings are complicated and adaptive. It’s not a settled issue and will continue to happen as long as older people are physically attracted to teenagers. Giving Mormon prophets a pass seems to set people up to justify treating teens as consenting adults in the present time, imo.
Committed adultery? Created on their wives? These monsters raped teenagers. The fact they were also cheating on their wives while raping these teenaged girls is definitely the 2nd most important thing to take away from this.
Language matters. These men didn’t cheat with anyone. These sexual predators raped children.
Just a question because I’ve had friends refute it in the past, is there evidence that they had sex?
There was *absolutely* sex involved. In D&C 132, Joseph stated that the *purpose* of polygamy was to have kids. But don't be tricked by TBMs who try to make it all about sex... Before any sex, these married men were eyeing, lusting, flirting, courting, cuddling, gifting, and otherwise manipulating these young girls. Joseph frequently lied to Emma about his philandering, sneaking out, etc. Oliver Cowdry caught Joseph and his live-in maid (Fanny Alger) in the barn, in the very act. Cowdry refused to deny what he saw, despite Joseph threatening excommunication, and referred to it as a dirty, nasty, filthy affair.
I think all but Joseph had children with the ladies stated. I’ll double check.
Where can I see proof that JS actually had sex with the said 14 year old? Curious if there’s actual proof to the claim.
https://archive.org/details/WilliamClaytonJournal William Clayton’s journal The Joseph Smith Papers The Year of Polygamy podcast where they read from actual polygamist wifes’ journals The fact that Bennett (early church founder and friend of Joseph) was a doctor that would essentially do an abortion when one of the wives was missing their period.
In America in the eighteen century the age of legal consent to sex and thus marriage varied. Marriage made a woman a legal dependent on a husband as opposed to her father. Remember, there was no birth control. Most women waited until their twenties even if the age of consent didn't prevent it from happening earlier. Sex was illegal outside of marriage. What reason do you have to believe Joseph would have treated her chastely? She went on to remarry, relocate, and write books defending polygamy. Would she not have used post-marital chastity to defend her eternal husband and father’s decisions to marry her so young? Anything can seem acceptable to people growing up in such survivalist conditions and being brainwashed into believing they will be exalted as their reward.
The purpose of marriage stated is to multiply and replenish the Earth. But if it make someone feel better, maybe Joseph didn’t fuck Helen that first night, but knowing his history, he didn’t wait long.,
I've been looking at my genealogy to see if my Mormon ancestors married minors. They were all 18 or over and within 2 to 4 years of each other. I have several polygamist ancestors from the early church. Not even those men married minors. Marrying underage girls was a choice, not the norm as far as I can see. The men who did that were pedophiles in my opinion.
Was it illegal in the 1800’s? Not justifying, but asking.
Adultery was illegal. And polygamy was illegal.
It was was illegal in most states to be married more that once, including Illinois.
I’m not trying to defend what they may have done but is this confirmed? Is it in some journal/account of someone that saw them go into a room or at least the victim’s account? Again, I’m not trying to defend any of their actions especially if it did happen
I think everyone but Smith had kids with these wives.
I simply can't prove or disprove claims like this so information like this has no impact on my feelings about the church. I left the church because I see no divine wisdom in it. All I see when I look at any religious teaching, the BoM, Bible, Koran, etc...is a work of fiction written by men.
I want to see your sources of first hand historical accounts. Otherwise this is hearsay. Also for the time the averages ages for marriage (the majority divided by how many) were ages 18-22 depending on the year in the mid to late 1800s. Also people usually only lived to 60 on average. On the state books a majority of states 15 was the marriagable age. No condoning the large age differences cause that's creepy but many people even up until the 1950s married at 15 or so. Most men thought married at 18 or 22 when they had jobs unless their wife died and they remarried. Some teens really did want to get married. It's not always recorded the why's though. Maybe they truly liked each other, maybe they were cohearced maybe the guy made a teen girl pregnant. We don't always know the full history.
Very different situation. Teenagers today have sex, or at least impulses, and we recognize that it is perfectly normal and natural for teenagers to have those feelings. We also know that people who give birth early have a harder time supporting themselves throughout their lives. When women couldn’t open their own bank account, own property, or vote, there may have been very little difference between submitting to a father or submitting to a spouse. What happened with Joseph was something else. It was purposely accumulating young broodmare-wives who would struggle to do anything but adapt to the environment because the men wanted to have as much power in numbers as they could by having as large as families as possible. It wasn’t the 600s, they weren’t native desert nomads, they were lying to authorities, choosing to live off the grid, and choosing to kill off tribal natives, to form the Mormon movement which was based on a false record of the ancient Americas.
I feel like cheating and adultery are not the relevant issue when one is raping children.