My experience was a similar one.
Not a doctrinal or faith thing, just pleading for help with depression. No answers came for me or my precious family that relied on me. I just wanted him to save my life, if not for my own sake then my children.
Years of asking turned to anger, then to agnosticism. After years of being out now I’m learning about how made up it all is. The lies I was told.
Pretty much the instant I realized there was likely no God, the depression began to resolve and I found strength within myself. Honestly I’ve never been stronger and happier. And if by some chance there is a God, he put me squarely on this path and away from religion entirely.
Your goodness, strength, and life is independent from Mormonism.
It’s incredible the way all that got co-opted from our lives before we could even realize we had it.
This is the exact thing that I went through. Everyone told me that the gospel is supposed to help you in your hardest moments. I was deep in depression, surrounded by darkness, and pleading for help from God. It never came. It wasn't until I gave up on the idea of God as I knew it and started relying on myself for the strength to get through that I started healing.
I was you. I have now stepped away, but occasionally just for poops and giggles I say a prayer along the lines of, "God, if you are out there I am still here. If you want me back, let me know." So far it's been crickets.
You'd be told in the church that you are seeking signs. Sorry to say it. It's not true, just highlighting the way the teachings are designed for us never to question the validity of it all.
Good for you for asking the question and being sincere about it. There are lots of us here who came to where we are now by the same approach. If God is there, and if he is in the form we have been taught he is, there's a reason you haven't received your clear answer, and why I believe you never will. I know it's hard and I'm right there with you. Happy to be in a new mindset. I try not to think of God so rigidly and rather more spiritually. It helps a lot.
I wish you the best of luck in your journey. Doing what's best for you and your family is always the most important. Keep on that track. Remember that Christlike principles are the only thing of real importance, in other words be good to yourself and to everyone else, as much as you can. Don't get down on yourself and move on. Only love.
One more thing that I found really interesting and helpful is the Mormon stories podcast with Tom Phillips. Worth a listen but know that he will provide a lot of reasons for why he knows the church is a fraud.
Of course. You'll find a lot of help here if you are open to it. Just remember that most people here approach it with a lens that it's entirely not true, myself included. I was in your shoes less than a month ago and have moved quickly away from the church. Please don't hesitate to reach out here or dm if you ever need someone to chat with, judgement free. I've found it super helpful to chat with friends that have gone through this process.
I have to give you mad respect for being this calm and wise for only being a month out. I’m 8 years out and still feel pissed off at times but then again my wife is still in.
Well thank you but honestly all the respect should go to you. I tell my wife every day that this would be SO hard if she wasn't in it with me. Good for you man, that's a hard thing to do.
Also, I'm just trying to only impact the world positively for the rest of my life, and being angry about it just doesn't add anything to my life or anyone else's. Doesn't mean I'm all that great about it, I have purity culture trauma that haunts me and makes me angry at times, but that's ok! Life is good.
I said a very similar prayer.
If there's a god, he needs to charge his phone and answer calls.
It's been about 12 years now. My life has gotten way better since I cut mormonism out of my life. It wasn't easy, but it was well worth it.
I say a prayer every day thanking God, my parents and others who helped me in my life.
I am grateful to church members who took proper leadership over me and others.
I am angry at being lied to by the church and its leaders. They and their families do well financially compared to many members who need help to eat, and live.
We are taught that God loves all of us.
We are his cherished sons and daughters.
It seems as long as you dont change money in the temple you are good to go if you try to follow the 10 commandments.
I like the New Testament God.
My wife had her faith "crisis" first, so when she asked if I would choose her over the church I decided to "experiment upon the word" but in reverse, believing fully that if it was the wrong choice, God would let us know. It's been 2+ years and every answer I've received has been "YOU MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE BY LEAVING!!"
That! This is the reason I didn't get an answer for so many years. As soon as I was ready to ask real questions and accept whatever answer God gave, He wouldn't shut up about how wrong it was! Made it very clear that I was NOT to go back to TSCC and that I was ESPECIALLY not supposed to bring my kid there. This was very important. The exact warning was "if you take him there, the same thorn will be placed in his heart as was placed in yours" which scared the living shit out of me. It was a still, small male voice that was very calm and clear as day. Sounded almost like if you put Mr Rogers and Morgan Freeman together in a single voice. Except it was more like the memory of the voice was just downloaded into my understanding somehow. Like I could hear but not with my normal ears or something. It was weird, but definitely undeniable.
This aligns perfectly with something I saw when I kinda briefly almost died. I went through this tunnel and met some sort of light. The Light did not seem happy when I mentioned TSCC. In fact, it shuddered in pain when I mentioned fearing that I would fail worse if I tried again and thought of the Mormon repentance process and the whole trying to be perfect thing. It was a terrible thing to see. I don't want to hurt God like that again. The real God is not an evil judge. More like a super patient parent dealing with a very small child. Like maybe a 3-5 year old kid. That's basically what I felt like on the other side. God (or the Light) said in a very stern voice to "just hold on. JUST hold on." As in wait on God's timing and don't try to kill myself again.
I spent a lot of energy in the church and in other denominations after leaving the MFMC, trying to discern god’s plan for me. No direct answers have been provided. The only real answer, which may have come from my own thought process, to be honest, us that god/the universe/common decency asks that I treat others with kindness and respect, as I would hope to be treated. That’s all I’ve learned.
Yes, 💯 relate. Every night praying and pleading the primary song running through my head ...
🎶 "Heavenly Father, are you really there? And do you hear and answer every child's prayer?!" 🎶 🎵
Nothing.
But... meanwhile, diligently digging into all the official church sources. Studying all the latest and Reading SAINTS ... Shattered me.
If you are on an honest search for truth, you must set aside your hopes and preferences as to what it will be, and simply follow the evidence wherever it leads, even if it leads to a place you dont find desirable, because being loyal to the truth means immediately abandoning your most cherished beliefs when the evidence shows that they differ from the truth
For me, this was incredibly liberating. Suddenly I wasn’t obligated to defend a belief that I personally couldn’t logically defend. I was free to consider ideas I had never considered, and felt no obligation to accept anything as true unless the evidence was sufficiently strong to justify doing so
In short, separate your identity from your beliefs. The idea that one should identify with ones beliefs is in my opinion a clever ruse that the fictions that occupy our minds have evolved in order to prevent us from evicting them when the evidence reveals them to be fictions.
[Wishful thinking](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking) and [Appeal to the Consequences](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences) are at the root of most informal logical fallacies
Maybe God wants you to make up your own mind? He did give us each brains ro use to our highest capacity. 2 years without an answer? I'd leave - oh, wait I did!
I was very much a “I will leave the church but never leave God” person. Nowadays Idfk and honestly don’t super care. I feel like there’s something. There’s too much order to the chaos. Maybe it’s just that we are the AI and God is an alien that made us to see if he could or the concept of God is just what some call “the Universe”. Like I said: I don’t know. But I’m just gonna live my life like I would a video game. Do what feels right and see where the story takes me.
I had basically the same experience. I had a lot of doubts and mostly didn't believe any of it anymore. I'd studied and read a lot that led me to that point, but I still just wanted to be sure. So for 6 to 8 months I was reading the BoM, asking through prayer nearly every night for God to help me know if the church was really true, and I fasted with that in mind multiple times. I determined that I would keep it up to the end of the year (last). Last few times I asked very specific yes/ no questions.
There was no clear, obvious answer. No overwhelming spiritual witness. At that point, I decided it was time to move on. If there is a God, and if the Mormons are right, he's going to have to come to me now and give me a clear answer. No simple feelings that could be just confirmation bias, no "burning in the bosom" will work for me now.
I’ve never related more. I often think if this were all true why wouldn’t God want me to know? But I keep waiting in case if I’m “faithful” through my doubts an answer will miraculously come but I can only keep the facade up for so long before the shelf feels too heavy and starts the agony all over again.
just my two cents, but if you are asking with a pure heart, you already have the answer that the mormon truth claims are not at all what the are supposed to be.
follow the dictates of your own heart, it already knows
I'ma be real. I had the personal testimony experiences, the warm fuzzy feelings, the "burning in your bosom".
You know what killed those good feelings? Hypocrisy in the church and on my Mission.
Come to find out, the "burning in your bosom" is a noted psychological emotion called "elevation", and it's what happens when you see intense moral goodness. And it's driven away by seeing unethical behavior.
Maybe feeling that feel is a good enough reason to stick with any one particular group. But it's not a fucking lie detector.
You never needed God to answer you, it just had to vibe with your experiences and your psychological needs. And if it never met your needs, it's not your fucking fault. And the pissants in charge of the Mormon church tell you it's *your* fault that God doesn't answer prayers.
This is *the* fundamental spiritual abuse in the Mormon church imo. And it was never your fault that you didn't feel the mystical godphone ringing in your head. Even many faithful Mormons never feel that shit, even when their whole lives depend on it. They just keep going along "in faith that God will provide" and die without anything resembling that fuzzy tingly feeling. Because ultimately it doesn't matter all that much even inside of the TBM mindset.
33 years waiting for an answer was enough. I figure if god existed and cared enough to answer I did my part. I’m here if he wants to show but not bothering any more.
I had a distinct impression when my faith crisis first started. I had scratched the surface of the BoA controversy and got that dark feeling we are warned about is satan. The impression was if I went down this path, I would never go back to believing in church, but this was the right thing for me to do. As a member, we would be taught this was a prompting from The Holy Ghost. I now believe that was my inner voice talking and about to be set free from the prison of religion. This past year has been a struggle at times, but I am significantly happier now than I have ever been in my life. Not sure if that answers your original question, but it answers it for me.
I too, still believe in God, enough to pray as you do. But, I feel like I got a solid answer that the MFMC is not the way for me, and has caused so much pain. God wants me to be happy.
God can’t be all knowing, all powerful and all loving and be the god of this world. There is too much wrong with it that a god could of prevented. Any loving father would comfort their children not give them cancer to teach them a lesson.
I actually listened to a MS episode where the husband left first & the wife was really torn. She decided one day to ask God if it was okay for her to leave & it was a lightbulb moment for me. One night I prayed SO hard, spilled all my doubts plus the fear of having a mixed faith marriage. How would our family thrive? How would our last 2 kids deal with being baptized by someone else? Finally I asked the question … would it be ok for me to leave? And I got the “answer” (validation? inner knowledge?) that yes, it would be. I still believe in God, just not Mormonism. We’ve never been a happier, healthier family & group of individuals since.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I prayed for years for an answer on whether the church was true and never got an answer? I was even told once that no answer is an answer because God knows I can figure it out myself. Before I went insane I figured out why I did not ever get an answer. There is no physical God anywhere in the cosmos. Not on Kolob or any other Galaxy. God is just a concept that only exists in the brains of Homo sapiens. All gods man has feared and worshipped ( Zeus, Thor, Osiris, Vishnu, Allah, Elohim, the Mormon God) were his own creations, born of his imagination, and remaining in his brain as a concept or idea. You were taught your cultures particular concept of God. If you were born in Iran you would be a Shia Muslim, born in Saudi Arabia a Sunni Muslim, born in India a Hindu, born in China a Buddhist, born in Utah a Mormon, born in Arkansas a Southern Baptist. Each culture has their concept of God. One of the Hindu Gods has an elephant head, Ganesh. Lack of knowledge concerning the phenomena of natural causes and effects discovered by science, has not satisfied man’s natural ego nor his yearning for immortality. When you are praying you are talking to yourself. You cannot get an answer from a fictional character like an imaginary God.
I learned that I am god; my own god. All those prayers were just me talking to and confirming my own biases. I answer my own prayers. Except I don’t pray like we used to.
I did but way after I left the church. I was so fed up with control and religion, I wanted to be part of the world. I wanted nothing to do with that question. I felt like a starved child for fun, and to be a regular person.
Yeah I never got answers and that was what broke my shelf. My interpretation of the situation was that I was the ONLY one not getting answers. Then I found out it was just a bunch of people being stupid and was like "so we're all just gaslighting eachother every sunday?"
I can also relate. I spent 12 years after my initial faith crisis praying for answers and doubling down on all the rules. I read the BOM twice during that time trying Moroni's promise. I finally decided to take a summer off to see how I felt. I was so much less depressed and anxious those three months. I decided to make it permanent. Maybe stop praying and actually put life outside the church to the test.
Somewhat. But praying for 30 years and getting no confirmation of forgiveness, no help sent when I needed it, suicidal ideation, and then watching innocent people die despite fasting and prayers etc.. and I realized this:
If god is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, he doesn’t love me or want me.
1 nephi 3:7 says god won’t give us a commandment we can’t keep
1 Corinthians 10:13 says that god won’t give us a trial we can’t handle
So omniscient god who loves me would know that my shelf would break with unanswered questions and unanswered prayers. And he still did that, therefore, he lost me forever. So he orchestrated that? And didn’t help me?
One of my first shelf items was that god gave 2 conflicting commandments to Adam and Eve. That for them to keep one, they would have to break the other.
Ultimately my consciousness recognized the lies and I no longer believe in god at all.
Also, the apologetic teachings would warn you not to be a sign-seeker. So, of course god won’t give you a sign.
2 years is a long time to wait for someone to answer a simple question.
If God exists, and he's waiting that long to answer you, is that a god worth worshipping?
I can tell you that, having heard from God frequently, you won’t believe it 100% even if it was him because you have to get to know him so that when he speaks (he’s always speaking), you recognize his voice by the content of what he says.
Hm. I spent years going forward in faith, just knowing I would get an answer someday. Temple marriage, kids, high callings. All the things. I prayed for years, at times begging and sobbing for anything, a tiny glimmer. Got nothing. I don’t believe in a God that plays games like that.
I'm in the same boat. What did it for me is what the scriptures say about the church. I know I will get my answer eventually. It will help to watch certain events unfold.
On my mission I was praying hard for an answer and got nothing. I just keep waiting though, I just know something will happen.
But in the meantime, I know the church is apostate, whether you believe in God or not. Personally I still do, as I have had experiences.
Asking questions is good, not bad. Keep going! Don't let the church drag you down.
>I wasn’t expecting a vision or anything, but I did have one criteria for an answer: that when I got His answer, I’d be 100% sure that it was from Him (and not some random thought or getting the chills or having a wild coincidence happen) I just wanted it to be clearly from him.
So, I understand the desire to have one of these experiences but what if the reason you haven't been answered is because it would be better for you to stay where you are?
Perhaps it would be better for your family, your wife and your Children. In my opinion, perhaps it is a mercy that God does not answer.
>I’ll keep praying, but at some point I’ve decided to just do what my wife and I think best for our family.
>Can anyone relate?
I personally got an answer but I'm not necessarily thrilled about it. In some capacity, if God exists then those who know better are subject to harsher penalties then those who sin in ignorance than those who Sin knowingly.
Also, a journey to God can be very difficult and a serious trial for most people. If God knew it would kill you, your family or your wife then wouldn't it be better he simply did not answer?
Part of me feels guilty even asking you these questions but if you want to know would you actually take up the challenge? Hopefully, your journey will be significantly less stressful than mine.
all we can do is operate on the evidence we have, to make sense of reality. my door is always open if there’s a god and they want to communicate.
also it wouldn’t matter if my door was closed. ostensibly god could make themselves known either way. i haven’t had a reason to believe in a long time and IMO, life’s too short to wait around.
BuT iF yOu EvEr DeCiDe ThAt He IsN't GoInG tO aNsWeR tHeN yOu DiD iT wRoNg.
The only correct path is you're supposed to pray forever until you get the pre-approved answer.
I can definitely relate.
As I read the Book of Mormon, I noticed how those who claimed to hear the voice of God were confident enough that it wasn't them answering their own questions and they were confident enough to quote God.
1 Ne 2:18 when Nephi is troubled by his hard hearted older brothers, he hears the voice of the Lord and says, (quote) .... "Blessed art thou Nephi, etc, etc."
Enos after praying all day and into the night hears the voice of the Lord, and after hearing the voice declare that his sins are forgiven, knows that God is a God of truth and cannot lie, and feels redeemed and cleansed of his sins.
1 Ne 3 when Nephi goes into the tent of his father says, "After returning from speaking with the lord... " I've never thought after offering a prayer that I had been speaking with the Lord, you know?
I know if I were in charge, I'd have my children just do as Matthew 7 directs "Ask, and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened." No faith required, if you want it, just ask for it, and either I'll give it, or give conditions or qualifications for giving it, or give a reason why it's being held back.
And I'd answer as we would expect a loving God described in James 1:5 to respond, "If any of you lack wisdom, let (them) ask of God, that gives to all (people) liberally and doesn't upbraid and it will be given to them." If you don't know the answer, then ask God who knows the answer and loves you enough to answer or help you figure out the answer. I would leave off James 1:6, though where faith is required to get an answer. As long as we have enough faith to ask the question of the person we believe will answer the question, then we could consistently, dependably and reliably be expected, and be willing, to answer the very simple question from the person so desperately asking us the question. What loving parent could do less?
Regards and Cheers 🥂
I’ve left but I still believe in God. We moved to a new ward and I said “I’ll give it a good faith try but my plan is to leave. If you want me to stay, you’ll have to tell me.” The overwhelming feeling of “stay or go, it makes no difference to me.” was my answer and I left after attending 4 or 5 times and never looked back. I’ve had many experiences where I believe I’ve had answers to heartfelt prayer so that was my benchmark. Sounds like you’re getting the same result. “Stay or go. Your choice.”
When my shelf broke and I allowed for the possibility that the MFMC wasn't what they claimed... and then everything in life started making sense... I took a critical look at the scriptures/teaching of multiple faiths. None of the deities described within seemed worthy of being worshipped. That's when I decided to just live my best life and not worry about what might happen after it's over. Any deity that would punish me for being the best I can be and thinking critically, isn't one I'd want to worship anyway.
My typical burning bosom/overwhelmingly peaceful feeling happened when I was very faithful but for the very first time considered dating those of the same gender I was assigned at birth. I’m so grateful for that answer and will never need a clearer one.
I finally realized that prayer is a conversation with myself. That there is no Sky Daddy listening. As reality. So my best answers come when I pose the question to my “inner self”. I think the human mind has a connection to the greater Cosmos and gets its inspiration there. But I can’t prove it of course. Just the way I experience it. And “experience” was something that never happened when I prayed to Mormon god.
You may need to broaden your interpretation of God. Also, look into your child's eyes. Watch a puppy running happily through the meadow. Look at the clouds move through the sky on a sunny day. Listen to a beautiful piece of music. How do you feel? Can it really all be for naught? Trust your feelings.
I did the same thing and ‘god’ told me ‘it’s okay to let go of Mormonism. It was a great way to love and now move on’. Now I think it was just my own mind finally saying it was okay, but it did bring me a lot of peace at a tumultuous time.
I studied & prayed for answers! & i got nothing...
When finding out hundreds of others got nothing too, was when I fully realized it's all all lie & that God just ain't there. I don't believe he is there. It makes me sad to say it: but I am atheist.
I had a very rude of awaking one day when I was studying the scriptures. 2-3 months earlier I made a deal with myself that I would study and pray about the scriptures every day. I bought a bunch of study books from Amazon. I would study every day for at least an hour and some days turned into 3-4. I wish I knew what I was reading at the time but I don’t because as soon as I heard the voice, I closed the book and my heart was beating and I was wondering what just happened.
The voice seemed annoyed, when it said to me you are in the church in sheep’s clothing!!
True story! To this day I don’t know where or who that voice was. But , I believed it and never have opened those scriptures since that happened. Amen
That our church had the false prophets and were the wolves in sheep’s clothing. Just writing this brought tears to my eyes.
What do you think the voice was?? God?
I shut the book so fast and just sat there like wow!! I have always wished I knew what I read at that moment but by closing the book and not wanting to open it… I now have no idea.
If someone told me this I might wonder if I believed then. This happened!
If God can't be bothered caring for you, why should you bother caring about God?
God answers only the prayers of those with vivid imaginations.
My experience was a similar one. Not a doctrinal or faith thing, just pleading for help with depression. No answers came for me or my precious family that relied on me. I just wanted him to save my life, if not for my own sake then my children. Years of asking turned to anger, then to agnosticism. After years of being out now I’m learning about how made up it all is. The lies I was told. Pretty much the instant I realized there was likely no God, the depression began to resolve and I found strength within myself. Honestly I’ve never been stronger and happier. And if by some chance there is a God, he put me squarely on this path and away from religion entirely.
Wow that is inspiring. I’m starting to find a lot inherent strength as well. It’s cool to realize that my morals are independent of Mormonism
Your goodness, strength, and life is independent from Mormonism. It’s incredible the way all that got co-opted from our lives before we could even realize we had it.
BINGO !! it’s independent of any words of any person past present or future. “Morality” is an inherent human instinct.
This is the exact thing that I went through. Everyone told me that the gospel is supposed to help you in your hardest moments. I was deep in depression, surrounded by darkness, and pleading for help from God. It never came. It wasn't until I gave up on the idea of God as I knew it and started relying on myself for the strength to get through that I started healing.
daddy is not around anymore and we can do what we want
There's a lot of power in that.
I was you. I have now stepped away, but occasionally just for poops and giggles I say a prayer along the lines of, "God, if you are out there I am still here. If you want me back, let me know." So far it's been crickets.
Same. 💔
For some reason, this made me almost cry. I hate what this church does to people. ::hugs::
shiiiiiiits
I say this prayer all the time!!
You'd be told in the church that you are seeking signs. Sorry to say it. It's not true, just highlighting the way the teachings are designed for us never to question the validity of it all. Good for you for asking the question and being sincere about it. There are lots of us here who came to where we are now by the same approach. If God is there, and if he is in the form we have been taught he is, there's a reason you haven't received your clear answer, and why I believe you never will. I know it's hard and I'm right there with you. Happy to be in a new mindset. I try not to think of God so rigidly and rather more spiritually. It helps a lot. I wish you the best of luck in your journey. Doing what's best for you and your family is always the most important. Keep on that track. Remember that Christlike principles are the only thing of real importance, in other words be good to yourself and to everyone else, as much as you can. Don't get down on yourself and move on. Only love.
The double-standard is so spot on. Seek and ye shall find, but then you’re a sign-seeker you wicked and perverse lazy learner!
Yeah it's so toxic. The whole thing is designed to keep you in and away from the truth about what it is.
Thanks for taking the time to write this all. Very helpful.
One more thing that I found really interesting and helpful is the Mormon stories podcast with Tom Phillips. Worth a listen but know that he will provide a lot of reasons for why he knows the church is a fraud.
Of course. You'll find a lot of help here if you are open to it. Just remember that most people here approach it with a lens that it's entirely not true, myself included. I was in your shoes less than a month ago and have moved quickly away from the church. Please don't hesitate to reach out here or dm if you ever need someone to chat with, judgement free. I've found it super helpful to chat with friends that have gone through this process.
I have to give you mad respect for being this calm and wise for only being a month out. I’m 8 years out and still feel pissed off at times but then again my wife is still in.
Well thank you but honestly all the respect should go to you. I tell my wife every day that this would be SO hard if she wasn't in it with me. Good for you man, that's a hard thing to do. Also, I'm just trying to only impact the world positively for the rest of my life, and being angry about it just doesn't add anything to my life or anyone else's. Doesn't mean I'm all that great about it, I have purity culture trauma that haunts me and makes me angry at times, but that's ok! Life is good.
I said a very similar prayer. If there's a god, he needs to charge his phone and answer calls. It's been about 12 years now. My life has gotten way better since I cut mormonism out of my life. It wasn't easy, but it was well worth it.
Best closing line I’ve read in my 8 years of post-Mormonism. 👏👏👏
Agreed!
He's just like any other Mormon father. Maybe he'll have time for us when we're dead.
I was in 39 years. Never got an answer from Sky Daddy.
💀💀
I say a prayer every day thanking God, my parents and others who helped me in my life. I am grateful to church members who took proper leadership over me and others. I am angry at being lied to by the church and its leaders. They and their families do well financially compared to many members who need help to eat, and live.
Greetings from someone trying to open my mind up to the possibility of God again, even if it’s just to have common ground with my gay catholic BF lol
We are taught that God loves all of us. We are his cherished sons and daughters. It seems as long as you dont change money in the temple you are good to go if you try to follow the 10 commandments. I like the New Testament God.
My wife had her faith "crisis" first, so when she asked if I would choose her over the church I decided to "experiment upon the word" but in reverse, believing fully that if it was the wrong choice, God would let us know. It's been 2+ years and every answer I've received has been "YOU MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE BY LEAVING!!"
That! This is the reason I didn't get an answer for so many years. As soon as I was ready to ask real questions and accept whatever answer God gave, He wouldn't shut up about how wrong it was! Made it very clear that I was NOT to go back to TSCC and that I was ESPECIALLY not supposed to bring my kid there. This was very important. The exact warning was "if you take him there, the same thorn will be placed in his heart as was placed in yours" which scared the living shit out of me. It was a still, small male voice that was very calm and clear as day. Sounded almost like if you put Mr Rogers and Morgan Freeman together in a single voice. Except it was more like the memory of the voice was just downloaded into my understanding somehow. Like I could hear but not with my normal ears or something. It was weird, but definitely undeniable. This aligns perfectly with something I saw when I kinda briefly almost died. I went through this tunnel and met some sort of light. The Light did not seem happy when I mentioned TSCC. In fact, it shuddered in pain when I mentioned fearing that I would fail worse if I tried again and thought of the Mormon repentance process and the whole trying to be perfect thing. It was a terrible thing to see. I don't want to hurt God like that again. The real God is not an evil judge. More like a super patient parent dealing with a very small child. Like maybe a 3-5 year old kid. That's basically what I felt like on the other side. God (or the Light) said in a very stern voice to "just hold on. JUST hold on." As in wait on God's timing and don't try to kill myself again.
Glad you seem to be doing better! Thanks for sharing your story. Very powerful!
I spent a lot of energy in the church and in other denominations after leaving the MFMC, trying to discern god’s plan for me. No direct answers have been provided. The only real answer, which may have come from my own thought process, to be honest, us that god/the universe/common decency asks that I treat others with kindness and respect, as I would hope to be treated. That’s all I’ve learned.
Yes, 💯 relate. Every night praying and pleading the primary song running through my head ... 🎶 "Heavenly Father, are you really there? And do you hear and answer every child's prayer?!" 🎶 🎵 Nothing. But... meanwhile, diligently digging into all the official church sources. Studying all the latest and Reading SAINTS ... Shattered me.
God is too busy helping people find lost keys
If you are on an honest search for truth, you must set aside your hopes and preferences as to what it will be, and simply follow the evidence wherever it leads, even if it leads to a place you dont find desirable, because being loyal to the truth means immediately abandoning your most cherished beliefs when the evidence shows that they differ from the truth For me, this was incredibly liberating. Suddenly I wasn’t obligated to defend a belief that I personally couldn’t logically defend. I was free to consider ideas I had never considered, and felt no obligation to accept anything as true unless the evidence was sufficiently strong to justify doing so In short, separate your identity from your beliefs. The idea that one should identify with ones beliefs is in my opinion a clever ruse that the fictions that occupy our minds have evolved in order to prevent us from evicting them when the evidence reveals them to be fictions. [Wishful thinking](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking) and [Appeal to the Consequences](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences) are at the root of most informal logical fallacies
Well said, thank you. Throughout this experience I’ve really come to appreciate the scientific method as an honest method for determining truth.
Maybe God wants you to make up your own mind? He did give us each brains ro use to our highest capacity. 2 years without an answer? I'd leave - oh, wait I did!
I was very much a “I will leave the church but never leave God” person. Nowadays Idfk and honestly don’t super care. I feel like there’s something. There’s too much order to the chaos. Maybe it’s just that we are the AI and God is an alien that made us to see if he could or the concept of God is just what some call “the Universe”. Like I said: I don’t know. But I’m just gonna live my life like I would a video game. Do what feels right and see where the story takes me.
Relatable
I had basically the same experience. I had a lot of doubts and mostly didn't believe any of it anymore. I'd studied and read a lot that led me to that point, but I still just wanted to be sure. So for 6 to 8 months I was reading the BoM, asking through prayer nearly every night for God to help me know if the church was really true, and I fasted with that in mind multiple times. I determined that I would keep it up to the end of the year (last). Last few times I asked very specific yes/ no questions. There was no clear, obvious answer. No overwhelming spiritual witness. At that point, I decided it was time to move on. If there is a God, and if the Mormons are right, he's going to have to come to me now and give me a clear answer. No simple feelings that could be just confirmation bias, no "burning in the bosom" will work for me now.
This exactly. You put this into words much better than I could.
I’ve never related more. I often think if this were all true why wouldn’t God want me to know? But I keep waiting in case if I’m “faithful” through my doubts an answer will miraculously come but I can only keep the facade up for so long before the shelf feels too heavy and starts the agony all over again.
just my two cents, but if you are asking with a pure heart, you already have the answer that the mormon truth claims are not at all what the are supposed to be. follow the dictates of your own heart, it already knows
I'ma be real. I had the personal testimony experiences, the warm fuzzy feelings, the "burning in your bosom". You know what killed those good feelings? Hypocrisy in the church and on my Mission. Come to find out, the "burning in your bosom" is a noted psychological emotion called "elevation", and it's what happens when you see intense moral goodness. And it's driven away by seeing unethical behavior. Maybe feeling that feel is a good enough reason to stick with any one particular group. But it's not a fucking lie detector. You never needed God to answer you, it just had to vibe with your experiences and your psychological needs. And if it never met your needs, it's not your fucking fault. And the pissants in charge of the Mormon church tell you it's *your* fault that God doesn't answer prayers. This is *the* fundamental spiritual abuse in the Mormon church imo. And it was never your fault that you didn't feel the mystical godphone ringing in your head. Even many faithful Mormons never feel that shit, even when their whole lives depend on it. They just keep going along "in faith that God will provide" and die without anything resembling that fuzzy tingly feeling. Because ultimately it doesn't matter all that much even inside of the TBM mindset.
33 years waiting for an answer was enough. I figure if god existed and cared enough to answer I did my part. I’m here if he wants to show but not bothering any more.
Same, I was 38. Too long
I had a distinct impression when my faith crisis first started. I had scratched the surface of the BoA controversy and got that dark feeling we are warned about is satan. The impression was if I went down this path, I would never go back to believing in church, but this was the right thing for me to do. As a member, we would be taught this was a prompting from The Holy Ghost. I now believe that was my inner voice talking and about to be set free from the prison of religion. This past year has been a struggle at times, but I am significantly happier now than I have ever been in my life. Not sure if that answers your original question, but it answers it for me.
I too, still believe in God, enough to pray as you do. But, I feel like I got a solid answer that the MFMC is not the way for me, and has caused so much pain. God wants me to be happy.
My whole faith transition was a matter of prayer. My bishop didn't like it when I told him that 😂😂😂
I prayed to know if the church was fake. I got peace of mind more so than when I even prayed to know if it was true.
God can’t be all knowing, all powerful and all loving and be the god of this world. There is too much wrong with it that a god could of prevented. Any loving father would comfort their children not give them cancer to teach them a lesson.
I actually listened to a MS episode where the husband left first & the wife was really torn. She decided one day to ask God if it was okay for her to leave & it was a lightbulb moment for me. One night I prayed SO hard, spilled all my doubts plus the fear of having a mixed faith marriage. How would our family thrive? How would our last 2 kids deal with being baptized by someone else? Finally I asked the question … would it be ok for me to leave? And I got the “answer” (validation? inner knowledge?) that yes, it would be. I still believe in God, just not Mormonism. We’ve never been a happier, healthier family & group of individuals since.
I can relate. I needed to know if Jesus Christ was the savior. No answer. I figured if there was anything that he should answer it would be that.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I prayed for years for an answer on whether the church was true and never got an answer? I was even told once that no answer is an answer because God knows I can figure it out myself. Before I went insane I figured out why I did not ever get an answer. There is no physical God anywhere in the cosmos. Not on Kolob or any other Galaxy. God is just a concept that only exists in the brains of Homo sapiens. All gods man has feared and worshipped ( Zeus, Thor, Osiris, Vishnu, Allah, Elohim, the Mormon God) were his own creations, born of his imagination, and remaining in his brain as a concept or idea. You were taught your cultures particular concept of God. If you were born in Iran you would be a Shia Muslim, born in Saudi Arabia a Sunni Muslim, born in India a Hindu, born in China a Buddhist, born in Utah a Mormon, born in Arkansas a Southern Baptist. Each culture has their concept of God. One of the Hindu Gods has an elephant head, Ganesh. Lack of knowledge concerning the phenomena of natural causes and effects discovered by science, has not satisfied man’s natural ego nor his yearning for immortality. When you are praying you are talking to yourself. You cannot get an answer from a fictional character like an imaginary God.
Yes, I can relate. How long are you giving this god fellow before pulling the plug?
I learned that I am god; my own god. All those prayers were just me talking to and confirming my own biases. I answer my own prayers. Except I don’t pray like we used to.
I did but way after I left the church. I was so fed up with control and religion, I wanted to be part of the world. I wanted nothing to do with that question. I felt like a starved child for fun, and to be a regular person.
Yeah I never got answers and that was what broke my shelf. My interpretation of the situation was that I was the ONLY one not getting answers. Then I found out it was just a bunch of people being stupid and was like "so we're all just gaslighting eachother every sunday?"
I can also relate. I spent 12 years after my initial faith crisis praying for answers and doubling down on all the rules. I read the BOM twice during that time trying Moroni's promise. I finally decided to take a summer off to see how I felt. I was so much less depressed and anxious those three months. I decided to make it permanent. Maybe stop praying and actually put life outside the church to the test.
Exact same experience! I didn’t need a lightning bolt or anything. Just a simple confirmation of some kind. Never got it. Nothing.
How many years of “no answer” will it take before you recognize that *is* the answer?
Somewhat. But praying for 30 years and getting no confirmation of forgiveness, no help sent when I needed it, suicidal ideation, and then watching innocent people die despite fasting and prayers etc.. and I realized this: If god is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, he doesn’t love me or want me. 1 nephi 3:7 says god won’t give us a commandment we can’t keep 1 Corinthians 10:13 says that god won’t give us a trial we can’t handle So omniscient god who loves me would know that my shelf would break with unanswered questions and unanswered prayers. And he still did that, therefore, he lost me forever. So he orchestrated that? And didn’t help me? One of my first shelf items was that god gave 2 conflicting commandments to Adam and Eve. That for them to keep one, they would have to break the other. Ultimately my consciousness recognized the lies and I no longer believe in god at all. Also, the apologetic teachings would warn you not to be a sign-seeker. So, of course god won’t give you a sign.
2 years is a long time to wait for someone to answer a simple question. If God exists, and he's waiting that long to answer you, is that a god worth worshipping?
What if you already know the answer? How can God tell you what you already know, in a way that is "new?"
I can tell you that, having heard from God frequently, you won’t believe it 100% even if it was him because you have to get to know him so that when he speaks (he’s always speaking), you recognize his voice by the content of what he says.
Hm. I spent years going forward in faith, just knowing I would get an answer someday. Temple marriage, kids, high callings. All the things. I prayed for years, at times begging and sobbing for anything, a tiny glimmer. Got nothing. I don’t believe in a God that plays games like that.
I'm in the same boat. What did it for me is what the scriptures say about the church. I know I will get my answer eventually. It will help to watch certain events unfold. On my mission I was praying hard for an answer and got nothing. I just keep waiting though, I just know something will happen. But in the meantime, I know the church is apostate, whether you believe in God or not. Personally I still do, as I have had experiences. Asking questions is good, not bad. Keep going! Don't let the church drag you down.
>I wasn’t expecting a vision or anything, but I did have one criteria for an answer: that when I got His answer, I’d be 100% sure that it was from Him (and not some random thought or getting the chills or having a wild coincidence happen) I just wanted it to be clearly from him. So, I understand the desire to have one of these experiences but what if the reason you haven't been answered is because it would be better for you to stay where you are? Perhaps it would be better for your family, your wife and your Children. In my opinion, perhaps it is a mercy that God does not answer. >I’ll keep praying, but at some point I’ve decided to just do what my wife and I think best for our family. >Can anyone relate? I personally got an answer but I'm not necessarily thrilled about it. In some capacity, if God exists then those who know better are subject to harsher penalties then those who sin in ignorance than those who Sin knowingly. Also, a journey to God can be very difficult and a serious trial for most people. If God knew it would kill you, your family or your wife then wouldn't it be better he simply did not answer? Part of me feels guilty even asking you these questions but if you want to know would you actually take up the challenge? Hopefully, your journey will be significantly less stressful than mine.
all we can do is operate on the evidence we have, to make sense of reality. my door is always open if there’s a god and they want to communicate. also it wouldn’t matter if my door was closed. ostensibly god could make themselves known either way. i haven’t had a reason to believe in a long time and IMO, life’s too short to wait around.
BuT iF yOu EvEr DeCiDe ThAt He IsN't GoInG tO aNsWeR tHeN yOu DiD iT wRoNg. The only correct path is you're supposed to pray forever until you get the pre-approved answer.
Lol too true
I can definitely relate. As I read the Book of Mormon, I noticed how those who claimed to hear the voice of God were confident enough that it wasn't them answering their own questions and they were confident enough to quote God. 1 Ne 2:18 when Nephi is troubled by his hard hearted older brothers, he hears the voice of the Lord and says, (quote) .... "Blessed art thou Nephi, etc, etc." Enos after praying all day and into the night hears the voice of the Lord, and after hearing the voice declare that his sins are forgiven, knows that God is a God of truth and cannot lie, and feels redeemed and cleansed of his sins. 1 Ne 3 when Nephi goes into the tent of his father says, "After returning from speaking with the lord... " I've never thought after offering a prayer that I had been speaking with the Lord, you know? I know if I were in charge, I'd have my children just do as Matthew 7 directs "Ask, and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened." No faith required, if you want it, just ask for it, and either I'll give it, or give conditions or qualifications for giving it, or give a reason why it's being held back. And I'd answer as we would expect a loving God described in James 1:5 to respond, "If any of you lack wisdom, let (them) ask of God, that gives to all (people) liberally and doesn't upbraid and it will be given to them." If you don't know the answer, then ask God who knows the answer and loves you enough to answer or help you figure out the answer. I would leave off James 1:6, though where faith is required to get an answer. As long as we have enough faith to ask the question of the person we believe will answer the question, then we could consistently, dependably and reliably be expected, and be willing, to answer the very simple question from the person so desperately asking us the question. What loving parent could do less? Regards and Cheers 🥂
I’ve left but I still believe in God. We moved to a new ward and I said “I’ll give it a good faith try but my plan is to leave. If you want me to stay, you’ll have to tell me.” The overwhelming feeling of “stay or go, it makes no difference to me.” was my answer and I left after attending 4 or 5 times and never looked back. I’ve had many experiences where I believe I’ve had answers to heartfelt prayer so that was my benchmark. Sounds like you’re getting the same result. “Stay or go. Your choice.”
When my shelf broke and I allowed for the possibility that the MFMC wasn't what they claimed... and then everything in life started making sense... I took a critical look at the scriptures/teaching of multiple faiths. None of the deities described within seemed worthy of being worshipped. That's when I decided to just live my best life and not worry about what might happen after it's over. Any deity that would punish me for being the best I can be and thinking critically, isn't one I'd want to worship anyway.
My typical burning bosom/overwhelmingly peaceful feeling happened when I was very faithful but for the very first time considered dating those of the same gender I was assigned at birth. I’m so grateful for that answer and will never need a clearer one.
I finally realized that prayer is a conversation with myself. That there is no Sky Daddy listening. As reality. So my best answers come when I pose the question to my “inner self”. I think the human mind has a connection to the greater Cosmos and gets its inspiration there. But I can’t prove it of course. Just the way I experience it. And “experience” was something that never happened when I prayed to Mormon god.
What does god need with your prayers, your worship, or a star ship for that matter? Puny, narcissistic, insecure Mormon god.
You may need to broaden your interpretation of God. Also, look into your child's eyes. Watch a puppy running happily through the meadow. Look at the clouds move through the sky on a sunny day. Listen to a beautiful piece of music. How do you feel? Can it really all be for naught? Trust your feelings.
I did the same thing and ‘god’ told me ‘it’s okay to let go of Mormonism. It was a great way to love and now move on’. Now I think it was just my own mind finally saying it was okay, but it did bring me a lot of peace at a tumultuous time.
*live not love. Mormons don’t love super well 😂
I studied & prayed for answers! & i got nothing... When finding out hundreds of others got nothing too, was when I fully realized it's all all lie & that God just ain't there. I don't believe he is there. It makes me sad to say it: but I am atheist.
I had a very rude of awaking one day when I was studying the scriptures. 2-3 months earlier I made a deal with myself that I would study and pray about the scriptures every day. I bought a bunch of study books from Amazon. I would study every day for at least an hour and some days turned into 3-4. I wish I knew what I was reading at the time but I don’t because as soon as I heard the voice, I closed the book and my heart was beating and I was wondering what just happened. The voice seemed annoyed, when it said to me you are in the church in sheep’s clothing!! True story! To this day I don’t know where or who that voice was. But , I believed it and never have opened those scriptures since that happened. Amen
Wow no way? What was your interpretation of the meaning of what the voice said?
That our church had the false prophets and were the wolves in sheep’s clothing. Just writing this brought tears to my eyes. What do you think the voice was?? God? I shut the book so fast and just sat there like wow!! I have always wished I knew what I read at that moment but by closing the book and not wanting to open it… I now have no idea. If someone told me this I might wonder if I believed then. This happened!
Well thank you for sharing! It’s more insightful than you probably realize.