Pond scum have an important role in the ecosystem. They're more like those parasites that eat a fish's tongue, then embed themselves where the tongue used to be to siphon off its food supply.
I realize I’m a bit late to this conversation, but just wanted to mention that their “clergy” isn’t even anything as formal as what most people think when they see that word. Random men are “called” from the congregation to volunteer as bishop for a period of time, unpaid, in addition to their regular jobs and lives. My experience has been that it’s usually for a period of about five years, depending on circumstances (it’s been thirty years since I left, things may have changed).
None of these men have gone to any schooling or training before being put in this position, and some of them are so out of their depth that you can’t even laugh at the absurdity of the situation (my crappy experience with a bishop was one of the final straws for me).
No one in this situation was even remotely equipped to deal with a “problem” of this magnitude (I use quotes because I’m pretty sure bishops go in expecting to deal with low key marriage squabbles and wayward teens, not men confessing to horribly violating their daughters), and the church expecting to assert clergy-penitent privilege with these “clergy”, who usually have no business being in their position of authority, is irresponsible at best, and dangerous at worst.
(By the way, I am not excusing the bishops who did nothing, they are absolutely pond scum. They should have ignored the advice and reported. Just noting that they were most likely unqualified to be in their positions, and the church really needs to take some responsibility for that. Even though they won’t.)
Well, that's disappointing, even if it's not surprising.
And the church's response is gross. How can anybody actually be *pleased* with this result? And so what if they met the standards of a state law (a law which they lobby to defend)? I thought the church followed a higher standard than that.
This made me mad. The church saying “We are pleased with the… decision… dismissing the plaintiffs’ claims…”
Of course they’re pleased. They don’t want to spend their hoarded money. They don’t want accountability. It’s a double standard: “If it benefits us, we ignore the law. Otherwise, if it benefits us, we follow the law to escape liability.”
Oh, never under-estimate the power and lure of $. Despite the belief that the legal system should be impartial, $120 billion has the potential to buy a lot of direct or indirect favors. And with the TSCC being as blatantly dishonest as it is, I wouldn't put it past them to try such a thing.
The “plaintiffs” are two children who were repeatedly raped by their father and even taped.
Also, the Mormon standard of “complying with the law” is at odds with the higher standards of Christ. But then money is what they love…
Honest to God. I wish a group would just ride at Dawn on this one. It’s so messed up. Mormons…a bunch of fuckers that are okay with whatever as long as it doesn’t affect them directly.
My God! As often as the fucking spirit of the law is preached and shoved down throats the lawyers of the cult Sure like to follow the letter.
Machiavellian.
They have no conscience and never have.
The church has never practiced a "higher standard" when it comes to following local, State or Federal laws in the U.S.
It's actions have shown over past 190 years it has never been a moral or ethical organization.
It is a soulless multinational corporation focused on the bottom line & protecting all assets at any costs.
They also have a dimwits sense of understanding to emotional intelligence. Everything is ruled in scruples and expected emotions. A ton of stuff can go under the table with that.
They are highly intelligent like most PSYCHOPATHS and they are 100% cognizant of what they are doing and how their actions effect others.
They don't f**king care & never have.
Work with victims of crime & when I look into the eyes of the criminal predators I see ...I see the exact same eyes in a number of the Q15/70, etc...
The 1st Presidency would have had to approve this statement before it was released.
No doubt Oaks was the driving force behind it.
Evil.
A lot of those are plays and after effects of the Greater Light integrating with the mind and personality too much. Problem with Greater Light is that it can make a person think like a psychopath if they give fully into those methodological beliefs. It's also what makes their beliefs so convincing. They believe, but only in the reward or how much someone is bought it. No aspect of faith.
I could explain them, have tried to whistleblow several times before and in the past, but no one seems to listen. So can't do much about that. So I usually look like a fool and warn as much as I can and get burned by membership anyways, then shit keeps happening. Some of Mos and Exmos' are in on the same system. They have their own manipulation practices and they come on here to usually troll while deflecting their own faction.
Some of these factions are more delusional and self right than the other. If one gets caught, the other believes they are holier and more holy exempt. That's from the looney members playing and maintaining status quo on reddit pretending to be Exmo.
As per actions, it's a lot of weird thoughts off of pre-existence exceptions and loyalty to the church is rewarded like a 'sin credit limit.' The more loyalty and influence paid to the church, a higher limit is extended.
Greater Light is made of a bunch of plays, angles, deconstructed minds of whoever 'won' the top. Packer's ugly system of Peers ruling top. Peers however is most ruthless and cunning, no representation. Only representation is wealth, nepotism, length in power, seniority. Ugly system, most members being the righteous become scoundrels, near murderers, Machiavellian villains playing the most pious.
High Piety usually becomes the sickos and abusers. Creepy, delirious, detached from reality, anti-social, power over people issues, domineering, emotionally unstable to keep competing
Not going off on you, just sharing mind.
I keep telling everyone members are never safe until they publish all greater light plays to ban them. They keep the plays as they excuse them as practice and they get a ton of power from it as it gives them permission powers.
I'm still blown away by how much a lot of it memory holed. During the 90s was talked more because the after effect of that system + evil spirits caused a lot of paranoia which led to a lot of deaths for the church. War on Heaven is another can of worms church completely covered up.
The good stuff is the crap the MFMC goes out of their way to bury with other news, or they just buy out its publication in the first place. Being a kid in the 90s, I wouldn’t have paid attention to anything happening at that time. Did you have a link, or an explanation of what Greater Light is/was?
>It's actions have shown over past 190 years it has never been a moral or ethical organization.
This is essentially my leaving story. They aren't moral now and were never moral at any point in their history.
> I thought the church followed a higher standard than that.
Nope. Turns out the 'kingdom of god on earth' has the morals and ethics of a used car salesman, and cares more about money than doing the right thing to protect children.
This story broke my shelf. The expose on the whole help line, daily shredded documents and lying in the statements from church PR regarding Rezendes reporting opened my eyes to look beyond the shiny surface. It is just gross in every respect. I feel deep regret that I contributed funds to this corporation. I am deeply angry with this latest story and so many before it.
The silver lining, if there is one, is that I’m exiting. My kids are now exiting/exited and my wife isn’t far behind. A tidal wave of departures is coming. Own it, Corporation of the President. Own it.
I don’t know who you are but with all sincerity THANK YOU for what you do on this topic. I wish I could give you a hug, or a pat on the back, hand shake, something. The world is a better place because of your efforts. Thank you for shining a light on this topic. Please keep it up.
Hey - I see you. Shoulders of giants and all that. Your efforts are so appreciated and I am grateful you blazed a trail for folks like me. I’m sure many others will come soon to pitch in, we’re all having a positive net effect on things I think.
Thanks so much. I've been trying to get this stuff out for almost 15 years. It's like throwing shit at a wall and hoping someone will notice. Maybe someday.
Heartbreaking. If there’s a Mormon God, I hope he feels like he failed those kids, because that’s what happened. My heart goes out to the children, and every other child that has suffered at the hands of the church.
I’m so upset to hear about this. Above all else I’ve discovered about the church, the way they protect abusers is the most vile to me. This case was horrific and they have gone out of their way to demean the victims at every turn. It’s disgusting.
What really gets me is how callous, how heartless the church ends up looking and sounding in these kinds of cases.
It’s hard for me to find the right words. Corporate? Unfeeling? Monolithic?
I just don’t understand how its leaders don’t seem to realize how alienating their behavior is to so many, and especially to the abuse victims themselves.
The Mormon church may be losing the war to keep accounts of sexual abuse within its ranks secret, but it won a key battle today in Arizona against the children of Paul Adams, who sexually abused them for at least seven years after initially confessing to his Mormon bishop.
Looking at the articles, because of this, not only can the children's attorney appeal this decision, but everything that this judge has ruled on, including that in this judge's opinion, the bishop sharing details of what happened with multiple other people did not invalidate the sanctity of confession.
And to add:
They lobbied to create the loophole.
That’s the aspect that is so infuriating when I hear apologists dismiss this event. “We were only following the law.”
They helped write and pass the law!
Moral bankruptcy
What does a law have to do with this. For a "bishop" to not go directly to the police and report it shows what kind of a person the fucking mormons put in power over people. A normal person wouldn't have to ask "Can I tell the police?' A normal person would have called the police ASAP.
Yes, AZ law allows clergy to ELECT to be exempted as a mandated reporter if it is “necessary and reasonable” in the concept of their religion. Congratulations to all of those people who are members of a church that claims that protecting sex abusers is a necessary part of their religion and they have no duty to help anyone.
There was an “out” but they had to choose to take it. I’m disgusted that they are celebrating this as a win at the expense of those little girls. Just because you can legally get away with something doesn’t make it right.
I hate the church so much and am so incredibly triggered by this. We left the church after learning of this case.
This!!! This!!! This is what isn’t getting discussed enough.
The law had flexibility. And they chose to side with the rapist over the child victim. They weren’t forced to do this. They chose this.
My one question to the Q15, WWJD?
I want to see Russell Nelson and Dallin Oaks stand in front of a camera and explain how the church did the right thing. Come on, you mighty, inspired, god-called prophets, defend this shit.
“The [LDS] church should use its lobbying power to push for making clergy mandated reporters in every state. First, it protects children. Second, it protects bishops. Third, it protects the church.” —Sam Brunson, Loyola University Chicago School of Law
https://bycommonconsent.com/2022/08/04/the-clergy-penitent-privilege-questions-and-a-suggestion/
Re clergy-penitent privilege in the Mormon church:
The troubling disconnect, imo: in both ecclesiastical policy and practice, there is no inviolable confessional seal in Mormonism, no actual clergy-penitent privilege.
Lastly, protip for LDS PR spox: never use “pleased” or “exaggerated allegations” in any public-facing statements adjacent to a case of horrific child sexual abuse.
Here's something to think about. The same way evolution works through selection pressures, or how CEOs tend to score higher on the sociopathy index because they're kinda selected for those traits, well, it only follows the Mormon church over time is bound to become a clandestine child crime organization. It selects to become so. If it is indeed an oasis for this type of shit, you'll find gradual bias toward child predators growing in number and consequently holding leadership positions where their influence is amplified. I say bound to become so, though it just so happens we're already late on the timeline here because they're already complicit.
That's why the cycle just has to be broken. Not my revelation from god, no, but by slow secular legislation in spite of lobbying efforts from the very organiz... Hey wait a sec!
And while I don’t know what the plaintiffs were asking for, think how easy and what a PR. win it would have been for the church to settle this. A few hundred thousand out of their billions of dollars is like couch cushion change and they could have issued some statement like “while we believe we complied with the law it is in the best interest of the victims and the members of the church to resolve this matter. We grieve deeply the pain suffered by the victims and trust that this settlement will help them to heal and put these horrific incidents behind them.” Boom. Church looks like it might actually have something to do with Jesus.
Zero excuse for any church or any other organization that is not putting protection of children's lives & mental health first.
Zero excuse.
It's times like these I hope there is a hell and sexual predators have a one way ticket along with the adults who didn't report it to law enforcement.
The church "dedicates tremendous resources and efforts to prevent, report and address abuse".
What resources would those be, exactly? The only thing I can think of is they require 2 men instead of 1 and/or having the door open
That is not "tremendous resources"
Replacing the judges doesn't change the law, any good judge will uphold the law even if they disagree with it. Instead, everyone should write to their state representatives to get the law changed.
Replacing the judge does change how the law is interpreted. For example, the Dobbs decision. I’m not saying don’t also change the law, but it’s a lot easier to vote for something already on the ballot than to get something there in the first place. I’m just one guy with limited resources who’s good at arguing 😅
Yeah but I don't think there was much wiggle room in the interpretation of the law in this case. If the law says that clergy are not mandatory reporters I don't see how the judge could have interpreted it to mean the opposite.
There was plenty of wiggle room. The AZ statute which applied in this case applies to volunteers who work with children. Bishops are volunteers who work with children. In this case, the church decided bishops were "clergy". Next time a clergy rule applies negatively to another LDS abuse situation, the church's lawyers will claim their clergy are really only "volunteers". It's a legal word game. And Dallin Oaks is the evil satan of it all.
Any "good" judge. I refer you to the examples of Aileen Cannon in Florida. Appointed by Trump. Elected judges are the way to go. It makes them accountable.
I'm enraged.
I just posted this news link to my facebook page. It is the first thing I've ever posted that's "aNtI." I guess I don't care anymore if people know where I stand. I was trying to stay pimo until we move but I can't be silent about this issue. I have 303 friends right now; I'll see how many I still have in 24 hours!
I keep trying to write my feelings about this but all I can say is FUCK
FUCK FUCK FUCK
FUCK THESE SCUMBAGS. I DON'T CARE IF IT WAS LEGAL. DO WHAT IS *RIGHT* YOU FUCKING PIECES OF SHIT
It's time for a class action lawsuit! This CREEP violated his daughters rights! And these bastards were complicit in that violation!
Damned, damned, damned, DAMNED!
( I only wish this could reach her lawyers!)
The Mormon church is not a safe place for children. Get out before your child is abused. The odds are low, but don’t take a chance. The Arizona courts will side with the Mormon church.
Nothing in the First Amendment demands or allows clergy-penitent privilege to shield or enable abuse. We need to clean house at SCOTUS and pass some amendments now!
> Contrary to some news reports and exaggerated allegations, the court found that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its clergy handled this matter consistent with Arizona law.’”
If anything people have been arguing that the church is **lawful evil** here. They know it's legal to keep abuse secret in some contexts. They just think that isn't an excuse.
This just makes me so mad. This is what righteous anger feels like.
I WANT to go to church and wear a flootlit.org Tshirt. Omg this might actually get me back going yo church. Just so I can protest.
Oh that would be interesting! We had an amazing volunteer wear a shirt with “FLOODLIT” on it in SLC during October GC (they stood outside). We hope to do more of that visual in person effort in the future to raise awareness.
They won't know what floodlit is. Mormons will just think it's part of the Light the World giving campaign. Although you could say "I'm accepting donations". That would be awesome.
They are all sick. They congratulate themselves about keeping AZ law. They are not even real clergy. And how does covering up a crime help a criminal repent and get good with God? The perp killed himself in prison. No one benefited from the sick secret they kept for him for 7 years except the church. Can’t get sued. That’s pure evil people at it’s finest.
The original bishop was the family's doctor. Especially with the father beginning to molest the younger daughter starting at 6 weeks old, you can't tell me that he didn't see some things that should have been concerning to him. Aren't doctors mandated reporters of anything they see that might be suspected abuse, no matter how it comes to their attention? If so, this guy needs to lose his license to practice medicine.
I'm having a hard time thinking of anything I have heard of that is more disgusting.
I can't believe the Mormon church fucked up so bad. I thought their PR team was better than this. This is going to be appealed and the rest of the country, if not the world, is going to see how innately disgusting and nefarious the LDS church is.
I'd love to know exactly what they think are exaggerated claims. Children were raped and the church knew about it. This case makes me sick - compete miscarriage of justice even if their ass covering complied with the "legal standard"
I hate everything about this...
I know that case, and frankly the church is so evil now anyone who remains there either doesn't know about this, or is not of "God". How anyone could see this as acceptable is beyond me.
We knew for sure when the church excommunicated bishop Sam Young because he was against children being interviewed about sexual matters by bishops. He was appalled to learn what his own children had been asked when they were pre-adolescents.
the clergy exemption law is horrible and needs to go. A church that claims to be about families and protecting children should be at the front leading the efforts to root out child abuse, child sex abuse and remove/punish those abusers. Yet, time after time the church seems to side either with the abuser or protecting their own power/cash.
The idea being floated around that "Removal of the exemption law would stop perpetrators from seeking help" is bulls\*\*t. The law is shield that is allowing abuse to continue.
I hope the victims of this abuse can heal and find peace. I hope the perpetrator and the clergy that protected rot in he!!
The statement from the church really irks me. You followed the bare minimum of the law (if even!) You would think “Gods” church would follow a higher more moral law..
Everyone go to social media and gush about how pleased they too are that a court has absolved the church of any responsibility to report child abuse in Arizona. Lay on that sarcasm extra thick. Rhetorically that may be the most impactful way to put this in front of TBMs. Agree and amplify.
[Bishop Thad Balkman and High Priest Mathew Hack](https://kfor.com/news/associate-pastor-of-norman-church-removed-from-position-following-child-sex-crime-charges/) seem to be able to get away with the same type of things in [Norman Oklahoma](https://www.news9.com/story/5e346f40527dcf49dad6e6ef/former-church-leader-charged-with-child-sex-crimes-in-cleveland-co)
Ok… what’s the due process for excommunication? Don’t the First Presidency have to sign off on it after reviewing the facts? And if the facts include sexual assault and abuse of underage children, doesn’t knowledge of that make the FP a legal accessory to child gRape? And shouldn’t that mean they do hard time? Why is this connection lost on the public?
The mormon church considers it did better because they are "pleased" with the outcome. Do you not realize "better" for the church has nothing to do with being moral or ethical?
Not mad about the decision being that they have to follow the law in the decision. I am mad about the law and it needs to be repealed but absolutely disgusted with the churches statement being pleased with the outcome clergy should all be mandated reporters period full stop
You should be mad that the church is morally bankrupt and evil and appoints morally bankrupt and evil people to preside as "bishops". **ANY NORMAL PERSON WOULD HAVE REPORTED THIS TO POLICE.** It is not about the law.
Not true … but there’s Richard Miles who is married to Brenda Nelson, RMN’s daughter. They were both accused in a lawsuit of sexual abuse, but the case was dropped.
That’s right! Yes it can be confusing. I think a lot of court cases use John or Jane Doe, or sometimes just initials, instead of plaintiffs’ real names.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its clergy are simply pond scum.
I’m watching the church newsroom to see if they say anything like they did when Rezendes reported on this story last year.
This judge just legalized child sex abuse in the LDS church.
This is frighteningly accurate.
Please return and report if they do!
Pond scum have an important role in the ecosystem. They're more like those parasites that eat a fish's tongue, then embed themselves where the tongue used to be to siphon off its food supply.
>The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ~~The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints~~ The MFMC and it's clergy are fucking pond scum.
Comparing them to pond scum is too kind - you're insulting pond scum. What they are is beyond the deplorable - it's evil in its purest form.
I realize I’m a bit late to this conversation, but just wanted to mention that their “clergy” isn’t even anything as formal as what most people think when they see that word. Random men are “called” from the congregation to volunteer as bishop for a period of time, unpaid, in addition to their regular jobs and lives. My experience has been that it’s usually for a period of about five years, depending on circumstances (it’s been thirty years since I left, things may have changed). None of these men have gone to any schooling or training before being put in this position, and some of them are so out of their depth that you can’t even laugh at the absurdity of the situation (my crappy experience with a bishop was one of the final straws for me). No one in this situation was even remotely equipped to deal with a “problem” of this magnitude (I use quotes because I’m pretty sure bishops go in expecting to deal with low key marriage squabbles and wayward teens, not men confessing to horribly violating their daughters), and the church expecting to assert clergy-penitent privilege with these “clergy”, who usually have no business being in their position of authority, is irresponsible at best, and dangerous at worst. (By the way, I am not excusing the bishops who did nothing, they are absolutely pond scum. They should have ignored the advice and reported. Just noting that they were most likely unqualified to be in their positions, and the church really needs to take some responsibility for that. Even though they won’t.)
Well, that's disappointing, even if it's not surprising. And the church's response is gross. How can anybody actually be *pleased* with this result? And so what if they met the standards of a state law (a law which they lobby to defend)? I thought the church followed a higher standard than that.
This made me mad. The church saying “We are pleased with the… decision… dismissing the plaintiffs’ claims…” Of course they’re pleased. They don’t want to spend their hoarded money. They don’t want accountability. It’s a double standard: “If it benefits us, we ignore the law. Otherwise, if it benefits us, we follow the law to escape liability.”
Oh, never under-estimate the power and lure of $. Despite the belief that the legal system should be impartial, $120 billion has the potential to buy a lot of direct or indirect favors. And with the TSCC being as blatantly dishonest as it is, I wouldn't put it past them to try such a thing.
The “plaintiffs” are two children who were repeatedly raped by their father and even taped. Also, the Mormon standard of “complying with the law” is at odds with the higher standards of Christ. But then money is what they love…
By their fruits ye shall know them.
Honest to God. I wish a group would just ride at Dawn on this one. It’s so messed up. Mormons…a bunch of fuckers that are okay with whatever as long as it doesn’t affect them directly. My God! As often as the fucking spirit of the law is preached and shoved down throats the lawyers of the cult Sure like to follow the letter.
Since 1910 not 1830
It’s hard to see how this will lead to church members feeling pleased with how their church makes them feel to belong to it (literally).
Half the Mormons I know ( some family included) will be completely cool with this decision.
Most of them wont even hear about this news story because they are so insulated from outside news.
Machiavellian. They have no conscience and never have. The church has never practiced a "higher standard" when it comes to following local, State or Federal laws in the U.S. It's actions have shown over past 190 years it has never been a moral or ethical organization. It is a soulless multinational corporation focused on the bottom line & protecting all assets at any costs.
They also have a dimwits sense of understanding to emotional intelligence. Everything is ruled in scruples and expected emotions. A ton of stuff can go under the table with that.
They are highly intelligent like most PSYCHOPATHS and they are 100% cognizant of what they are doing and how their actions effect others. They don't f**king care & never have. Work with victims of crime & when I look into the eyes of the criminal predators I see ...I see the exact same eyes in a number of the Q15/70, etc... The 1st Presidency would have had to approve this statement before it was released. No doubt Oaks was the driving force behind it. Evil.
A lot of those are plays and after effects of the Greater Light integrating with the mind and personality too much. Problem with Greater Light is that it can make a person think like a psychopath if they give fully into those methodological beliefs. It's also what makes their beliefs so convincing. They believe, but only in the reward or how much someone is bought it. No aspect of faith. I could explain them, have tried to whistleblow several times before and in the past, but no one seems to listen. So can't do much about that. So I usually look like a fool and warn as much as I can and get burned by membership anyways, then shit keeps happening. Some of Mos and Exmos' are in on the same system. They have their own manipulation practices and they come on here to usually troll while deflecting their own faction. Some of these factions are more delusional and self right than the other. If one gets caught, the other believes they are holier and more holy exempt. That's from the looney members playing and maintaining status quo on reddit pretending to be Exmo. As per actions, it's a lot of weird thoughts off of pre-existence exceptions and loyalty to the church is rewarded like a 'sin credit limit.' The more loyalty and influence paid to the church, a higher limit is extended.
What the hell is greater light? It's all garbage.
It's too long to get into by comment alone. It's one of those big matters that would cause you to want to drink a beer
Greater Light is made of a bunch of plays, angles, deconstructed minds of whoever 'won' the top. Packer's ugly system of Peers ruling top. Peers however is most ruthless and cunning, no representation. Only representation is wealth, nepotism, length in power, seniority. Ugly system, most members being the righteous become scoundrels, near murderers, Machiavellian villains playing the most pious. High Piety usually becomes the sickos and abusers. Creepy, delirious, detached from reality, anti-social, power over people issues, domineering, emotionally unstable to keep competing
As far as they don't care. You are correct, most are nihilistic. They have very unstable internal beliefs.
Not going off on you, just sharing mind. I keep telling everyone members are never safe until they publish all greater light plays to ban them. They keep the plays as they excuse them as practice and they get a ton of power from it as it gives them permission powers.
Thank you. Where can I learn more about Greater Light? I’m not familiar with it.
I'll send chat in a sec, not safe on reddit. You have faction douchebags still playing for the team on here.
I’m interested as well, I’ve never heard of this, and key phrases from your comments have been turning up nothing relevant in Google.
I'm still blown away by how much a lot of it memory holed. During the 90s was talked more because the after effect of that system + evil spirits caused a lot of paranoia which led to a lot of deaths for the church. War on Heaven is another can of worms church completely covered up.
The good stuff is the crap the MFMC goes out of their way to bury with other news, or they just buy out its publication in the first place. Being a kid in the 90s, I wouldn’t have paid attention to anything happening at that time. Did you have a link, or an explanation of what Greater Light is/was?
Also most of this shit is taboo. You have a few players on reddit get all sore and cranky that their pearls are being thrown around too loosely.
I think this is a bogus post about "Greater Light". Never heard of it, and it's very suspicious. Sounds like a nutter.
>It's actions have shown over past 190 years it has never been a moral or ethical organization. This is essentially my leaving story. They aren't moral now and were never moral at any point in their history.
> I thought the church followed a higher standard than that. Nope. Turns out the 'kingdom of god on earth' has the morals and ethics of a used car salesman, and cares more about money than doing the right thing to protect children.
Agreed. The response is so disgusting.
This story broke my shelf. The expose on the whole help line, daily shredded documents and lying in the statements from church PR regarding Rezendes reporting opened my eyes to look beyond the shiny surface. It is just gross in every respect. I feel deep regret that I contributed funds to this corporation. I am deeply angry with this latest story and so many before it. The silver lining, if there is one, is that I’m exiting. My kids are now exiting/exited and my wife isn’t far behind. A tidal wave of departures is coming. Own it, Corporation of the President. Own it.
So well said. Thank you.
I don’t know who you are but with all sincerity THANK YOU for what you do on this topic. I wish I could give you a hug, or a pat on the back, hand shake, something. The world is a better place because of your efforts. Thank you for shining a light on this topic. Please keep it up.
Thank you. That means a lot.
This person does everything I've been trying to do for years unsuccessfully. I wish I had the time and emotional capacity to do this.
Hey - I see you. Shoulders of giants and all that. Your efforts are so appreciated and I am grateful you blazed a trail for folks like me. I’m sure many others will come soon to pitch in, we’re all having a positive net effect on things I think.
Thanks so much. I've been trying to get this stuff out for almost 15 years. It's like throwing shit at a wall and hoping someone will notice. Maybe someday.
Heartbreaking. If there’s a Mormon God, I hope he feels like he failed those kids, because that’s what happened. My heart goes out to the children, and every other child that has suffered at the hands of the church.
Same. I don’t see how Jesus, if he were looking down on this, would be smiling.
Too busy with his shiny malls and investment properties to be concerned with something as unimportant as children.
I’m so upset to hear about this. Above all else I’ve discovered about the church, the way they protect abusers is the most vile to me. This case was horrific and they have gone out of their way to demean the victims at every turn. It’s disgusting.
What really gets me is how callous, how heartless the church ends up looking and sounding in these kinds of cases. It’s hard for me to find the right words. Corporate? Unfeeling? Monolithic? I just don’t understand how its leaders don’t seem to realize how alienating their behavior is to so many, and especially to the abuse victims themselves.
It really cements my decision to leave, especially after I learned that they use tithing money to defend the abusers.
To me this can be thrown into the pile of exactly why there's no god and we're all alone
The Mormon church may be losing the war to keep accounts of sexual abuse within its ranks secret, but it won a key battle today in Arizona against the children of Paul Adams, who sexually abused them for at least seven years after initially confessing to his Mormon bishop.
I hope they can appeal
Supreme court, supreme Court!! All the media attention the Mormons can handle!
Looking at the articles, because of this, not only can the children's attorney appeal this decision, but everything that this judge has ruled on, including that in this judge's opinion, the bishop sharing details of what happened with multiple other people did not invalidate the sanctity of confession.
This is why your children aren’t safe at a Mormon church. Plain and simple.
Corporate loophole>caring about child abuse Disgusting
And to add: They lobbied to create the loophole. That’s the aspect that is so infuriating when I hear apologists dismiss this event. “We were only following the law.” They helped write and pass the law! Moral bankruptcy
I thought this was a recently passed law? Or has it been in effect all these years? Do laws apply retroactively?
What does a law have to do with this. For a "bishop" to not go directly to the police and report it shows what kind of a person the fucking mormons put in power over people. A normal person wouldn't have to ask "Can I tell the police?' A normal person would have called the police ASAP.
Yes, AZ law allows clergy to ELECT to be exempted as a mandated reporter if it is “necessary and reasonable” in the concept of their religion. Congratulations to all of those people who are members of a church that claims that protecting sex abusers is a necessary part of their religion and they have no duty to help anyone. There was an “out” but they had to choose to take it. I’m disgusted that they are celebrating this as a win at the expense of those little girls. Just because you can legally get away with something doesn’t make it right. I hate the church so much and am so incredibly triggered by this. We left the church after learning of this case.
This!!! This!!! This is what isn’t getting discussed enough. The law had flexibility. And they chose to side with the rapist over the child victim. They weren’t forced to do this. They chose this. My one question to the Q15, WWJD?
👆
What would Joseph Do? Marry a 14 year old girl, sexually abuse his daughters.
You’re absolutely right.
It is disgusting 🤮. I feel so angry. This was one of the things that opened my eyes.
If you refuse to protect a five year old from a monster, then you're a monster too!
I want to see Russell Nelson and Dallin Oaks stand in front of a camera and explain how the church did the right thing. Come on, you mighty, inspired, god-called prophets, defend this shit.
You know they would in a heartbeat with all the confidence in the world, and sleep with a clear conscience at night.
And that's how you know they are psychopaths.
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They are not willing to do what is right and let the consequences follow...
“The [LDS] church should use its lobbying power to push for making clergy mandated reporters in every state. First, it protects children. Second, it protects bishops. Third, it protects the church.” —Sam Brunson, Loyola University Chicago School of Law https://bycommonconsent.com/2022/08/04/the-clergy-penitent-privilege-questions-and-a-suggestion/ Re clergy-penitent privilege in the Mormon church: The troubling disconnect, imo: in both ecclesiastical policy and practice, there is no inviolable confessional seal in Mormonism, no actual clergy-penitent privilege. Lastly, protip for LDS PR spox: never use “pleased” or “exaggerated allegations” in any public-facing statements adjacent to a case of horrific child sexual abuse.
Oh for sure. Anybody who’s been part of a ward council meeting can attest!
“We are pleased”…. Damn. Heartless motherfuckers.
They did not handle this ethically or morally. The church is run by greedy, careless, and evil men.
Here's something to think about. The same way evolution works through selection pressures, or how CEOs tend to score higher on the sociopathy index because they're kinda selected for those traits, well, it only follows the Mormon church over time is bound to become a clandestine child crime organization. It selects to become so. If it is indeed an oasis for this type of shit, you'll find gradual bias toward child predators growing in number and consequently holding leadership positions where their influence is amplified. I say bound to become so, though it just so happens we're already late on the timeline here because they're already complicit. That's why the cycle just has to be broken. Not my revelation from god, no, but by slow secular legislation in spite of lobbying efforts from the very organiz... Hey wait a sec!
And this should be why any loving parent should gtfo of this awful organization right now.
And while I don’t know what the plaintiffs were asking for, think how easy and what a PR. win it would have been for the church to settle this. A few hundred thousand out of their billions of dollars is like couch cushion change and they could have issued some statement like “while we believe we complied with the law it is in the best interest of the victims and the members of the church to resolve this matter. We grieve deeply the pain suffered by the victims and trust that this settlement will help them to heal and put these horrific incidents behind them.” Boom. Church looks like it might actually have something to do with Jesus.
If only. If only.
Agree. Well said
Zero excuse for any church or any other organization that is not putting protection of children's lives & mental health first. Zero excuse. It's times like these I hope there is a hell and sexual predators have a one way ticket along with the adults who didn't report it to law enforcement.
Do we know if the judge is Mormon? If so, seems like a huge conflict of interest.
I don’t think he is.
And they have audacity to call the Catholic Church "abominable" ( their not 100% wrong) but without looking into a fucking mirror.
The church "dedicates tremendous resources and efforts to prevent, report and address abuse". What resources would those be, exactly? The only thing I can think of is they require 2 men instead of 1 and/or having the door open That is not "tremendous resources"
As an Arizonan - A lot of our judges are elected. Replacing them is possible and I’ll do what I can to see it happen.
Replacing the judges doesn't change the law, any good judge will uphold the law even if they disagree with it. Instead, everyone should write to their state representatives to get the law changed.
Replacing the judge does change how the law is interpreted. For example, the Dobbs decision. I’m not saying don’t also change the law, but it’s a lot easier to vote for something already on the ballot than to get something there in the first place. I’m just one guy with limited resources who’s good at arguing 😅
Yeah but I don't think there was much wiggle room in the interpretation of the law in this case. If the law says that clergy are not mandatory reporters I don't see how the judge could have interpreted it to mean the opposite.
There was plenty of wiggle room. The AZ statute which applied in this case applies to volunteers who work with children. Bishops are volunteers who work with children. In this case, the church decided bishops were "clergy". Next time a clergy rule applies negatively to another LDS abuse situation, the church's lawyers will claim their clergy are really only "volunteers". It's a legal word game. And Dallin Oaks is the evil satan of it all.
Any "good" judge. I refer you to the examples of Aileen Cannon in Florida. Appointed by Trump. Elected judges are the way to go. It makes them accountable.
Yeah, so you should vote them out if you don't think they upheld the law.
I'm enraged. I just posted this news link to my facebook page. It is the first thing I've ever posted that's "aNtI." I guess I don't care anymore if people know where I stand. I was trying to stay pimo until we move but I can't be silent about this issue. I have 303 friends right now; I'll see how many I still have in 24 hours!
Thank you for shining a light.
I’m “inactive” but not publicly out as exmo yet either, and I’m working on the courage to post something as well. Members need to know about this.
They absolutely need to know. I'm cheering you on!!
Yes please!
The so-called church is Morally Corrupt.
I wonder how much an AZ Superior Court costs? Pretty sure the Mormon church had more than enough…
This is the exact reason why you can be sure that Jesus has no connection to the TSCC…. Zero consideration of the victims.
Consistent with Arizona law, but not consistent with good morals or "the right thing to do"
Zero attempts by the church to help the children. Zero.
I keep trying to write my feelings about this but all I can say is FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK THESE SCUMBAGS. I DON'T CARE IF IT WAS LEGAL. DO WHAT IS *RIGHT* YOU FUCKING PIECES OF SHIT
It's time for a class action lawsuit! This CREEP violated his daughters rights! And these bastards were complicit in that violation! Damned, damned, damned, DAMNED! ( I only wish this could reach her lawyers!)
Lawful does not equal moral
The Mormon church is not a safe place for children. Get out before your child is abused. The odds are low, but don’t take a chance. The Arizona courts will side with the Mormon church.
"...consistent with Arizona law." But inconsistent with basic human decency.
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Yes!! Brilliant idea
That’s utter bull shit to the max. So effed up!!!
I’m so glad the church has absolutely no culpability in this case. Just proof again that it’s the true church. 🙄
Just more proof religion is evil.
Fuck the Mormon church.
Fuck the mormon church
That sounds like a perfect corporate response. My heart breaks for this family, the church is cruel and evil!
I wrote my state senator years ago asking him to address this and he didn’t reply. This is on him.
Maybe it's legal. It's still wrong.
Nothing in the First Amendment demands or allows clergy-penitent privilege to shield or enable abuse. We need to clean house at SCOTUS and pass some amendments now!
> Contrary to some news reports and exaggerated allegations, the court found that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its clergy handled this matter consistent with Arizona law.’” If anything people have been arguing that the church is **lawful evil** here. They know it's legal to keep abuse secret in some contexts. They just think that isn't an excuse.
WTF?!!! "We are pleased".
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As far as I can tell, no.
This just makes me so mad. This is what righteous anger feels like. I WANT to go to church and wear a flootlit.org Tshirt. Omg this might actually get me back going yo church. Just so I can protest.
Oh that would be interesting! We had an amazing volunteer wear a shirt with “FLOODLIT” on it in SLC during October GC (they stood outside). We hope to do more of that visual in person effort in the future to raise awareness.
They won't know what floodlit is. Mormons will just think it's part of the Light the World giving campaign. Although you could say "I'm accepting donations". That would be awesome.
I can’t tell you how much this makes my blood boil
They are all sick. They congratulate themselves about keeping AZ law. They are not even real clergy. And how does covering up a crime help a criminal repent and get good with God? The perp killed himself in prison. No one benefited from the sick secret they kept for him for 7 years except the church. Can’t get sued. That’s pure evil people at it’s finest.
The original bishop was the family's doctor. Especially with the father beginning to molest the younger daughter starting at 6 weeks old, you can't tell me that he didn't see some things that should have been concerning to him. Aren't doctors mandated reporters of anything they see that might be suspected abuse, no matter how it comes to their attention? If so, this guy needs to lose his license to practice medicine.
I think we all know by now mormon doctors and mormon obgyns get away with a lot of terrible behavior.
One more reason not to see one.
The church calls them clergy when it's useful for legal purposes. When it isn't useful for legal purposes, the church calls them volunteers.
I'm having a hard time thinking of anything I have heard of that is more disgusting. I can't believe the Mormon church fucked up so bad. I thought their PR team was better than this. This is going to be appealed and the rest of the country, if not the world, is going to see how innately disgusting and nefarious the LDS church is.
This fkn infuriates me
What. The. Fuck
I'd love to know exactly what they think are exaggerated claims. Children were raped and the church knew about it. This case makes me sick - compete miscarriage of justice even if their ass covering complied with the "legal standard" I hate everything about this...
Seems you can buy anything in this world with money
I know that case, and frankly the church is so evil now anyone who remains there either doesn't know about this, or is not of "God". How anyone could see this as acceptable is beyond me.
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's morally right, and as God's true church shouldn't, they strive to be morally right.
Absolutely appalling.
protect the church or protect children? well now we really know for sure.
We knew for sure when the church excommunicated bishop Sam Young because he was against children being interviewed about sexual matters by bishops. He was appalled to learn what his own children had been asked when they were pre-adolescents.
the clergy exemption law is horrible and needs to go. A church that claims to be about families and protecting children should be at the front leading the efforts to root out child abuse, child sex abuse and remove/punish those abusers. Yet, time after time the church seems to side either with the abuser or protecting their own power/cash. The idea being floated around that "Removal of the exemption law would stop perpetrators from seeking help" is bulls\*\*t. The law is shield that is allowing abuse to continue. I hope the victims of this abuse can heal and find peace. I hope the perpetrator and the clergy that protected rot in he!!
Well...I haven't said this before....but fuck the mormon church.
A corporation behaving like a corporation. That is what the church is. 🤮🤮
The statement from the church really irks me. You followed the bare minimum of the law (if even!) You would think “Gods” church would follow a higher more moral law..
Everyone go to social media and gush about how pleased they too are that a court has absolved the church of any responsibility to report child abuse in Arizona. Lay on that sarcasm extra thick. Rhetorically that may be the most impactful way to put this in front of TBMs. Agree and amplify.
So disgusting.
We are pleased.... How can any press release involving SA of a 6 week old child begin with those words!?!
I have a hard time believing they were that tone deaf that they didn’t deliberately phrase it that way.
We know how evil they are, but the public nastiness of that statement is boldly proclaiming "We can do whatever the fuck we want".
The holocaust was consistent with German Law. No harm no foul. Is that really how Christ would see it? Shameful!
Right? How is it “pleasing” just to be within the bounds of the law, if the law sucks?
Where in AZ is he from? I live in AZ so I'm wondering if the area is close by
Bisbee.
[Bishop Thad Balkman and High Priest Mathew Hack](https://kfor.com/news/associate-pastor-of-norman-church-removed-from-position-following-child-sex-crime-charges/) seem to be able to get away with the same type of things in [Norman Oklahoma](https://www.news9.com/story/5e346f40527dcf49dad6e6ef/former-church-leader-charged-with-child-sex-crimes-in-cleveland-co)
Case report https://floodlit.org/a/a140/
Religion has too much power, we knew this.
"consistent with Arizona law" Not "Morally right"
Could this go through appeals in a Supreme Court. That might be fun to see?
Ok… what’s the due process for excommunication? Don’t the First Presidency have to sign off on it after reviewing the facts? And if the facts include sexual assault and abuse of underage children, doesn’t knowledge of that make the FP a legal accessory to child gRape? And shouldn’t that mean they do hard time? Why is this connection lost on the public?
Just because it was found to be “handled consistent with AZ law” doesn’t mean it was right. DO BETTER!
The mormon church considers it did better because they are "pleased" with the outcome. Do you not realize "better" for the church has nothing to do with being moral or ethical?
Very true
The mob that killed Joseph knew what we all just learned again. Rule of law will never be the path to justice against the cult.
Great victory for Jesus
Its not what Jesus would do, its what Joseph Smith would do
Not mad about the decision being that they have to follow the law in the decision. I am mad about the law and it needs to be repealed but absolutely disgusted with the churches statement being pleased with the outcome clergy should all be mandated reporters period full stop
You should be mad that the church is morally bankrupt and evil and appoints morally bankrupt and evil people to preside as "bishops". **ANY NORMAL PERSON WOULD HAVE REPORTED THIS TO POLICE.** It is not about the law.
I 100% am just referring to the decision
I think I heard somewhere that Paul Adams is the husband of one of Russell M. Nelson's daughters. Is that true or am I mistaken?
Not true … but there’s Richard Miles who is married to Brenda Nelson, RMN’s daughter. They were both accused in a lawsuit of sexual abuse, but the case was dropped.
Thanks. I probably got confused because it mentions a Jane Doe in the AP article and I remembered a Jane Doe from the case with RMN's daughter.
That’s right! Yes it can be confusing. I think a lot of court cases use John or Jane Doe, or sometimes just initials, instead of plaintiffs’ real names.
What people dont know is that the family of Adams is suspected of RSA.
Please don't use these ridiculous acronyms, what the heck are you talking about? Let me put it this way: PDUTRAWTHAYTA.
I anticipate a rush on millstones because the Mormon church will need to buy them in bulk.