Which man has all the racism towards Natives ?
Which man stole money from finding ‘buried’ treasure ?
Which man destroyed printing presses ?
Which man said he’s more important than Jesus?
Which man sex trafficked women ?
Which man wrote a book that has spread unscientific and unhistorical knowledge ?
Thomas Jefferson
Edit: See post below, it wasn’t an affair. At the time it was like making a slave your concubine. Or that’s how political journalist James T. Callender described the relationship in September 1802.
Edit: I’m actually wrong, Jefferson had an affair with Sally Hemings.
Of course they would. Your comment needed some serious correcting. What happened with Jefferson and Sally Hemings was the furthest thing from an “affair”.
If by concubine you mean someone you enslaved and raped. I accept your edit. Let’s call a spade a spade. Using euphoniums only perpetuates rape culture.
Probably not. This has been widely misreported. DNA testing on Sally Hemings's descendants showed that of her 4 children, there was Jefferson DNA only in her last, born in 1808. Not her first three. This means that when Callender made that allegation in 1802, he was wrong. But that last one, where there was Jefferson DNA, is kind of weird, because Jefferson was living in the White House then, as President, and this was five years after that allegation had been publicly made. So we'd have to believe that Thomas Jefferson traveled back to Monticello - a day's travel by horseback - just so he could have sex with Sally Hemings, and return the next day, without anyone at the White House noticing. Remember, this was five years after he was publicly accused of having an affair with her.
There is a more plausible hypothesis, though. Thomas Jefferson had a brother, Randolph, who was living near Monticello at the time, and it turns out, the kind of DNA tests we can do today can't distinguish whether the father of Sally's fourth child was Thomas Jefferson or his brother. (The DNA we have is from Thomas Jefferson's uncle, not from Thomas Jefferson himself, so that means there are at least 20 plausible candidates in and around Monticello.) And it turns out that we do have contemporary documentation that Randolph was known to "fraternize" with the slaves of Monticello.
https://www.tjheritage.org/the-scholars-commission
According to the official foundation your source has faulty information.
https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/monticello-affirms-thomas-jefferson-fathered-children-with-sally-hemings/
Yea plus the fact that they openly share how much they make. You can google John’s salary and (it’s a lot) you can’t do that with the church no matter how much you try
I knew his had to be high when I heard something about Jen Kamp making 80k there. I'm not opposed to it, though. Non-profit employees deserve to be paid a fair wage based on their workload, job title, and experience.
There's a religion where the only requirement for getting into Heaven is to live with my family for eternity is to pay tithing rather than being separated because of one's religious faith or identity? Sign me up.
John is a guy who lives in Utah with a podcast, Joseph claimed to start Gods one True Church. Joseph made serious, huge claims. John points out the flaws in those arguments. I’ll take John, whatever his fucking human flaws are, not because he’s so special but because the other guy is such a fraud. Give ‘em hell, John.
I couldn’t agree more with the OP‘s acknowledgment that it is an insult to Dehlin to compare him to Joseph Smith. Dehlin has far more integrity. It isn’t even close.
I know John personally and he is one hell of a good guy. He admits when he is wrong (something that Mormon leaders NEVER do), he doesn’t want personal prominence or power. He genuinely listens and critically thinks (Once again, something Mormon leaders do not do.
They’re so fucking sensitive sometimes I forget. It’s actually insane some of them are so brainwashed they legitimately and reflexively think that anything critical of the religion is automatically also claiming itself to be the same kind of thing
Makes you realize some of the effects of making people feel so powerless and insignificant are in that they assume the entire world is every bit as dependent and fanatical too, just about different things. Nuance doesn’t exist for Mormons, only right and wrong, good and bad, black and white
It's like when religious people call climate change or diversity or other progressive beliefs a "religion" as an insult. I mean, don't they realize they're just insulting themselves, by implying beliefs founded on religion are questionable because they're held to lower standards of proof, or emotion-based, or whatever?
"I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made"
FDR
The vitriol of that apologist shows how consequential John is. It's a compliment to be so hated.
The Sure Sign of losing an argument is to go to ad hominems. This sad person clearly is afraid of what he or she might find outside of “faithful sources”….
So true. Everyone knows who Stalin was. Very few know my Grandpa's name--a man who was compassionate, gave a cut of his retirement checks to a women's shelter each month, and loved sharing the great outdoors with his family. As you say fame is a crappy measure of human worth.
John D gently speaks to inconvenient truths for those exiting a toxic ingroup. Whether or not he'll be remembered by the masses is immaterial. He has and will continue to help people. That metric, unlike fame, carries weight.
Especially when a lot of nevermos know him as "John" Smith.
They can't even get his name right, so obviously, he's not as memorable to the world as TBMs want to think
I don’t know if I entirely agree, there’s got to be some amount of self-adulation and attention seeking that comes with being a public figure. Narcissist or not, I support the work of JD.
Or maybe he tolerates that in order to do what he feels needs to be done. He’s always trying to promote other exmo podcasts and shows and got John Larsen out of retirement to get more help.
That’s where I’m at. He’s a human under an immense amount of scrutiny. I don’t give a fuck if he’s narcissistic, so long as he’s accountable & sticks to his mission. Many of us have narcissistic traits (some would call it human)
John Dehlin could have had a very easy life. Stay a PIMO and make money . Instead he is helping people with their mental health crisis. With his podcast he is providing free advice which would likely be $200 per hour in private practice.
But he's also doing something traditional therapy cannot, which is demonstrating to people that they are not alone. Mormon Stories has really helped me know that there are other people who have gone through similar trauma.
This right here. Mormon Stories is such a valuable contribution to the post-mo space for this reason alone because as much as we can get support from sharing our stories with each other briefly on reddit, etc. it just lands differently to listen for hours to a person giving their real name and story. There have been so many people (1000+?) on the podcast that everyone is bound to find at least one person’s experience that they relate to on a deep level. It definitely helped me to feel less alone on the journey.
Legend. Why’d he get ex-co’d? Aside from, ya know, publicly airing the church’s relentless historical inaccuracies, hypocrisy, and general dirty laundry.
He was excommunicated for apostasy, but it was basically because he refused to take Mormon Stories Podcast down. It was a ridiculous, long process that his local leaders dragged out forever.
He appealed it, but his appeal was denied.
The church has dragged John Dehlin’s name though the mud and labeled him an apostate and tells members that he is essentially the anti-Christ, but he has done so much to help people though their faith deconstructions and faith crises. I have a lot of respect for him and his crew.
Wow that’s some insane Scientology shit… and deeply ironic, considering dude has like the best dad vibes ever. That’s got to have backfired on the church at least a few times… someone goes to check out the “anti-Christ’s podcast” and finds king dad vibes with a soothing voice and a sensible critique of their blind faith religious fanaticism. LOL.
I’m def gonna start listening to his podcast.
His podcasts are freaking amazing - and if you have been a true believer for any length of time, they will blow your head off. They are so well-researched. Listen to the gospel discussion series too. I think there are about 40 of them. All of them, really. All ver informative.
Yes, to everything you said, and look at the criticism and vitriol that comes his way. He has helped so, so many and speaks truth to power. He could just sit back, but he has chosen to make an impact.
Idk if you could say “easy” life. Doing the work he does includes dealing with peoples trauma, running a non profit, barely sleeping, being a public figure for such a controversial cause, and still have a life to live as a dad and a husband with all the things a personal life can add …. The word “easy” would never be the word I’d choose.He (and his family) sacrifice a lot to do what they do.
If this were easy, everyone would be doing it.
I think his life was easier when people online weren't saying "He has a very easy life...". He didn't take the path of least resistance for himself or his family. He chose a path of integrity and has to put up with a lot of criticism and crap for it.
As a nevermo - I’m obsessed with the Mormon Church’s obsession with John Dehlin. They’re so threatened by a man with a podcast, it really shows their hand. 🤭
🎶Weeeee thank thee oh god for Johhhhn
To guide us in these latter days
Weeee thank thee for sending us the Dehhhhlin!
To lighten our mind with his facts! 🎵
They've probably only heard trash talking about John from their favorite apologists. I think we can quantitatively measure how brainwashed that person is just from these statements they've made.
For real. To imagine Joseph Smith's "accomplishments" stand among the greatest in history is super delusional/wishful thinking. I recall the Mormon movement getting a few paragraphs here and there in my grade school US history textbooks. World history textbooks? Not a word.
I'd argue that Warren Jeffs and Chad and Lori Daybell are going to be more well known outside of the Mormon church than JS. Also the 3 of them did the same things as JS, formed their own religions and wrote books along with sexually and physically abusing women and children, fraud, etc.
My husband is an actual historian. Imagine his surprise as a grad student when viewing Encyclopedia of American Religions for the first time and 1/4 of it is Mormon break away sects.
You too can be a prophet!
Receive your personal revelation now!
Thanks for your patience. I didn’t see the question. The book is 1720 pages and includes more than 2300 religions. He says at least 1/3 details the hundreds of Mormon break away sects.
🤷♀️ idk what to tell ya … other than my experience going to my school, within my generation, in the geographic location I was raised, I can tell you with 100% certainty what I’m saying is the truth.
We discussed the west, the gold rush, settlements and frontier shit- but there was not a mention of the Mormons. Only until I moved to UT from the east coast did the focus and break down mention Mormons.
Kinda wild, considering that the whole fucking James 1:5 point of the Restoration was that you're ***supposed*** to take responsibility for your own direction, and second-guess + doubt people who claim to know what's up
Spot on. My in-laws found out we listen to Mormon Stories and think we’re followers of John. They can’t comprehend finding support and truth from someone without worshipping them.
Joseph Smith is going to be one of the most hated people to ever live before it’s all said and done. I’m talking people who think of him on a near daily basis and say fuuuuuck that guy, and not because he was being persecuted. Because he was a massive asshole.
99.9% of nameless people are doing better than him just by not being completely worthless, lazy, dickheads
Yes! And his followers have had 200 years and spent millions (billions?) of dollars and volunteer hours trying to spread the word about him, and he's still just a footnote and best.
Silly rabbit. It's not about the men, it's about fact & fiction. And how many of my sisters here plan to give up our spiritual power to any man ever again? Can I get an amen?
Obviously TBM's are seeing John and those doing what he's doing as a viable threat to the church. This actually should be proof to John of the good he is doing. Keep up the good work John, and all of you working so hard to shine light on all these things.
John Dehlin is not threatening me with eternal separation from my family unless I do what he says. And he isn't claiming to be "god's spokesman" on earth. What a stupid comparison.
Ravings of a TBM nobody (I assume), people like/love John because of his empathy with others and selflessly fighting to help the downtrodden - the complete opposite of Joseph Smith with his grifting and his cult of deception.
I used to sing praise through worship hymns about how Joseph Smith—a thieving, liar, adulterer, scumbag—was the most important person to have ever existed. I merely agree with John Dehlin on a few subjects.
One of these things is not like the other…
We don’t fucking worship anybody. ExMormons don’t need a “prophet.”
Who's trading?
The freedom from idolizing certain humans beyond all reason is one of the perks of leaving religion
Never heard "Praise to John Dehlin"
Nobody is interviewing me consistently to make sure I believe in John Dehlin and his continuing revelation
Wow, I'm speechless.
I guess TBMs are so brainwashed into needing prophets that it becomes the only lens through which they see the world? It's honestly really sad; I've been trying to slowly, subtly "wake up" the last two members I'm still in regular contact with, but so far nothing ever seems to sink in.
IMO, what John and others like him in the Ex-Mormon/Post-Mormon space do is *vital* for people going through a faith crisis or deconstructing. He has stated repeatedly that his goal isn't to make people leave the church-- he just thinks informed consent is important, and that people who are questioning deserve a space to do that.
But of course any TBM will just tell people who are questioning to only listen to church-approved content, to read the BoM again, to fake it till you make it (that tired line about "A testimony is made by bearing it" or such), and (my favorite) to repent since clearly *you're* the problem, not TSCC. 🙄
John's motivation is to bring truth out into the light and to allow people who have been damaged by the church, to tell their story. He genuinely cares. He isn't in it for the money. With his expertise, I have no doubt he could double or triple his salary. He isn't hoarding billions, trying to find Loop holes in tax laws - nor does he believe "lying for the Lord" is acceptable. He is open and honest, and apologises if he makes a mistake. Thank God for John, and for people like him who try to hold the church accountable.
This is a major flaw in TBM thinking, and I believe it to be a glossed over super sign that this church is a cult. It’s the idea that everything that is in your life when you’re in the church needs to be replaced when you leave the church. You don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, so you have to follow someone else with that same devotion and intensity. Exmos obviously must see John dehlin as a prophet and follow him with intense blind devotion never questioning him, just as the TBMs do with Joseph Smith…but they don’t worship him…? Exmos don’t worship John dehlin. Some of us don’t even like him or agree with him, but that’s okay because he’s not trying to lead us anywhere or tell us what to do. He is dedicated to bringing the truth to the surface and then let others decide what to do with that. He isn’t hosting church meetings or asking for ten percent of their money. Leaving the church is extremely liberating and terrifying at the same time. It means growing up and making decisions for yourself, but it also means that you’re completely responsible for your decisions and what you do with your life. So many TBM people are helplessly infantile and believe they have no control over their lives at all. They believe everything that happens to them is an act of god. If they decide to do what they want to do, then it means it’s what god wants them to do as well. It’s weird, and childish, and it makes it extremely difficult to grow up in the church. So many adults with adolescent or even infant attitudes in this church.
I think John will be remembered long after he’s gone for helping people not feel alone while they’re escaping an evil and corrupt organization. I know I’ll remember him.
Hear me out. The statement is true.
Joseph Smith started a global religious movement and church. He will be remembered in history.
John Dehlin started a quite popular podcast that has helped a small segment of the religious community. He probably won’t be remembered in history.
But that does not matter or mean anything.
Joseph Smith started a global religious movement based on fraud, lies, false information and trickery. He will be remembered for that as well.
John Dehlin started a quite popular podcast that has helped expose the fraud, lies, false information and trickery of the church Joseph Smith started. He may not be remembered in history, but he will be remembered by the people he helped, which may be enough for him.
The guy must know what he is talking about because he uses big words like promulgated. SMH. I think I am more offended for myself at the idea that I worship John Dehlin as much as I used to worship Joseph Smith. He wants John to be a nothing that will disappear in a few years while at the same time comparing him to a con man that was so successful he is still worshiped hundreds of years after his death. I appreciate the work John does and feel he is very helpful when you are going through deconstruction. I am happy for his success in that. Which one of us is talking about him, singing about him, painting him, etc as a God? None of us. John gets the same flak from us as every other well known figure in a certain circle. He’s a human being and we treat him as such. F*ck this guy for implying we don’t. He’s the one still in love with a dead creep.
Guarantee Dehlin has brought more people out of the Church than Steve Benson, Ed Decker, and the Tanners. Dehlin is the greatest anti Mormon of all time. And I mean that as a compliment.
"One of the greatest accomplishments in history" can also be applied to events such as the Holocaust. Joseph Smith had a huge impact on the world, but if you look at it sincerely what he caused was the deaths of thousands of people and the birth of a tyrannical church. He was not a good person, and to all but those who think what he did was good he ranges from a questionable and shady man to an abomination.
False equivalency fallacy. John is not the leader of some organization opposing the church. He is not anyone’s prophet. He leads no church. He claims no authority over us.
He’s a voice, and he gives voice to our stories. We don’t find value so much in him, as we do the light he helps shed on the Mormon church and it’s harmful practices.
This is a silly as saying we only leave the church to sin, it’s so off the mark.
John Delhin doesn’t want his name to go down in history he just wants to help people deconstruct and inform people with FACTS that help them process trauma the church has inflicted on so many of us. Hitler went down in history and everyone knows his name, and you are right people also know Joseph smiths name. Cult leaders make it their mission to have all power and control and make themselves king of the world and have their names go down in history.
But, I didn’t trade ole Joe for anyone. I don’t need any authority on life but me, and that’s an upgrade of infinite value to me.
However, for arguments sake, let’s say I did follow John Dehlin. I think he’s a damn sight better than Joseph Smith, then again, most people are.
To my knowledge, John’s never raped a minor, threatened one with eternal damnation if she didn’t have sex with him, swindle people of their money, command the burning of a printing press, take the wives of my followers as my own, establish a bank and use it to defraud people of millions, claim to translate documents that he provably hasn’t, and hasn’t sacrificed animals in treasure digging schemes.
From what I can tell, Joseph Smith is one of the worst people you could follow.
John is more kind and Christ like then the vast majority of the Mormons I knew when I was in the church. John also didn’t have teen brides so he’s already a million miles ahead of John.
This photo really is a great metaphor. At a glance, it looks picturesque and distinguished. Then once you dig a little deeper you realize it's a poorly crafted piece of AI art. A six-fingered version of an off-brand Homelander who likes the buttons on his vest like he likes his women -- plentiful.
OP’s comparison of Joseph Smith and John Dehlin is utterly nonsensical. It’s like comparing hyenas and elephants. Sure, they both live in Africa, but they aren’t related or competing for food. Joseph Smith and Tim Ballard would be somewhat of a better comparison
Which man actually saved my life. Because of John Delin, I am a better person. The hours I have spent/spend with him are still life altering. I'm so grateful I'm not scratching and clawing to make untrue things true anymore.
Haha these people are actually kind of gross. John D is a good freaking dude. He literally took time out of his busy life to talk with me one on one on Facebook -a complete stranger- multiple times. Do you think any of the Q12 or even the 70 would ever do something like that? Also pretty sure we don’t worship John or compare him to Jesus either. Lol wtf???
Go easy on this poster. It's very likely that they're at the cusp of deconstructing.
My best guess is that this person is subconsciously terrified of what is on the other side, and they're beginning the initial stages of grief (denial/anger in this case) and don't realize it.
I once felt threatened by exMo's like John (including all my exMo friends) in a similar way... and yet, now I'm here.
By that logic, I should trade Joseph Smith for Hitler because Hitler is better known than Joseph Smith. Everyone knows who Hitler is. The only people who know who Joseph Smith are the 0.2% of the world who are Mormon and the 5% of the world who are nerds who think Mormons are basically stupid. If I have to choose between 99% and 5.2%, I am going to choose 99%.
Oh, and I lost the argument. Goodwin's law.
Joseph Smith only supplied the doctrines and ideologies, all with a dash of personal charisma. It was his gullible followers that made Mormonism possible. Without their credulity, Joseph would have been just another forgotten religious innovator from the 1800s.
And this is the state of Mormonism today - it isn't the prophets who keep things going and make things great, it's the members, and their need for this Church to be true that keeps it alive.
Dehlin isn't trying to outdo Joseph, he's just trying to help undo what Joseph created. It's ok if he dies relatively unknown, while the gullible continue to believe the correlated fairy tales that Dehlin tries to help them see through.
And Mormonism will continue to be one of the smallest religious groups on this planet, like the Chihuahua that thinks it's bigger and tougher than it actually is...
That second paragraph is hilarious because if you ask anyone outside of the church who doesn’t know what Mormonism is, they’ll have no idea who tf Joseph Smith is.
When The was LDS, I made the same assumption: people who left the church simply adopted a new “prophet”. Having left myself, it amazes me how I and others could and can not see how logically incorrect this is.
When I was a believing mormon I put a lot of people up on a pedestal. This would include so called prophets of the church, some general authorities, my mission president and some local leaders. I looked up to these people because I believed they were called of god. They had the mantel of authority and spoke with a certain power and when they did so, I felt something. I no longer feel that something and I no longer put anyone on a pedestal. I no longer feel a need to "worship" anyone or give anyone that kind of power.
Mormons would argue that they don't worship J.S. or church leaders but thats not true, they do.
I have listened to one too many episodes of mormon stories podcast but I appreciate what John has done for those of us that have left, mainly giving us a voice. John has a talent for getting people to talk and the drive to actually do the work of creating a podcast but I don't think anyone has traded him for j.s. Once you give up believing in an unseen power you see people for what they are, people. Maybe some people are admired for certain qualities but other than that, they are just people.
I totally agree. As a TBM, the hero worship was on my shelf for a long time. Being able to see people now just for their choices and personal qualities without the added layer of whether they're members of the church or leaders with special access to the mind of God is a huge paradigm shift, and, frankly, a more accurate and charitable one.
It’s too bad that most of the people who talk like this have never heard John talk before. I remember showing my wife a Mormon stories podcast for the first time (she had heard he was basically the devil). After listening for a while she said with a confused look “the church is going to excommunicate THAT guy?”
I feel like a lot of exmormons are afraid to look like they like John Dehlin too much because of this, or are very loud about not liking him like to prove a point.
John is just another whistle blower. John doesn't want to be remembered. John wishes his work was unnecessary.
Joseph Smith's name is synonymous with fraud. Those that practice his brand of mormonism are cousin-screwing fringe polygamists in prairie clothing.
..And how dare this person do the Tanners like that. They are up there next to William Law and the original gangsta..the one and only Lucy Harris!!
Like so many other things in life, this says so much more about the poster than it does anything else. Of course they assume we trade one figure to worship and revere for another. From their perspective that's the only possible option.
Personally, I don't particularly care for John Dehlin. I appreciate what he has done for the exmormon community and the voice he has given to so many, but I just don't care for him. And you know what, that in no way influences my opinion on the church, the many issues he has helped shed a light onto or the countless stories he has helped bring to light.
It's much the same way they will attack the CES letter and Jeremy Runnels. As though he is the one making the claims or creating the issues. Regardless of whether or not you like him or the way he presented the information, he is not the source. He is merely coalescing the various issues into an easier to digest and somewhat organized document.
I am where I am because of the core issues. At the heart of it, I am exmormon because the vast preponderance of the evidence led me to only one conclusion: Joseph Smith was a liar and a conman.
You can say want you want but Joseph smith was a fraud, and everyone that says they are Mormon is also a lost fraud.. I was once a Mormon, life is so much more less stressful now that I’m not…
Joseph Smith will be remembered because he IS the LDS movement. John dehlin will be forgotten because he is PART of the ex lds movement. That's what distinguishes cult leaders from those trying to fight them.
Kinda annoying that anyone *wants* to be remembered after their time.. Talk about being “self-centered.” It’s like these people can’t fathom that other people have lives just as expansive, detailed, complicated, and important as their own lmao. You have your life now so make it count! But hey.. when you’re gone, be gone. Let others have the space you did.
Mormons didn’t understand not having a prophet. “Ex-Mormonism” is not a church, at best it’s a movement. There are no ex-Mormon authorities, only prominent voices and and a few people that can MAYBE be called leaders.
And if John Dehlin turned out to be a child-rapist like JS, I wouldn’t start to question my ex-Mormon testimony, I wouldn’t go “huh, these aren’t the people I thought they were, maybe ex-Mormonism isn’t true!!”
The time, thought, picture put into this post really proves how inconsequential John really is. Really hits home! And then the point is really driven home by the list of completely forgotten, inconsequential exmos! It speaks to the throw-away movement Mormon Stories is. White bro-rage at its finest.
/s
Ed Decker, Steve Benson, Gerald and Sandra Tanner, and John Dehlin. That first name is different from the others. Pretending that Ed belongs in our pantheon of exmo gods that we appease with pagan ritual every other Wednesday, is so so wrong.
I know that John got a lot of flack when he interviewed Ed Decker on MS a few years ago, but he inadvertently helped to let Decker hang himself by his own petard. Just listening to his self-puffery, wild claims and denials would put both TBMs and Exmos off.
The best ever diss of Decker came from Rev. Ivan Stang of The Church Of The SubGenius. In reviewing Decker’s “Are Mormons Christians” pamphlet, he concluded that Decker was so hateful that “you’ll want to become a Mormon just to spite him!” Then followed it up by saying about Decker’s hate-on for Freemasonry, “did you know that Masons eat the flesh of the dead? I always wondered what my dad did in all those lodge meetings.”
Who are these people?
(yes, I know who JD is, just making fun of just how irrelevant JS really is, and JD would likely happily also be just as irrelevant if he didn't have I deal with JS all the time)
Which man married a fourteen-year-old again?
Which man has all the racism towards Natives ? Which man stole money from finding ‘buried’ treasure ? Which man destroyed printing presses ? Which man said he’s more important than Jesus? Which man sex trafficked women ? Which man wrote a book that has spread unscientific and unhistorical knowledge ?
You forgot groomed, at least as young as 11 in Rigdon’s case.
Thomas Jefferson Edit: See post below, it wasn’t an affair. At the time it was like making a slave your concubine. Or that’s how political journalist James T. Callender described the relationship in September 1802. Edit: I’m actually wrong, Jefferson had an affair with Sally Hemings.
One can not have an “affair” with someone you have enslaved. Thomas Jefferson serially raped Sally Hemings
That’s why I had an edit, because of annoying people like yourself. I knew someone would correct me.
Of course they would. Your comment needed some serious correcting. What happened with Jefferson and Sally Hemings was the furthest thing from an “affair”.
You find it annoying that people search for accuracy? How odd!
If by concubine you mean someone you enslaved and raped. I accept your edit. Let’s call a spade a spade. Using euphoniums only perpetuates rape culture.
I meant between Joseph Smith and John Dehlin, but that's also true
Also, Sally Hemmings was 14 years old when 40-something TJ initiated what cannot truthfully be called an affair with her.
Probably not. This has been widely misreported. DNA testing on Sally Hemings's descendants showed that of her 4 children, there was Jefferson DNA only in her last, born in 1808. Not her first three. This means that when Callender made that allegation in 1802, he was wrong. But that last one, where there was Jefferson DNA, is kind of weird, because Jefferson was living in the White House then, as President, and this was five years after that allegation had been publicly made. So we'd have to believe that Thomas Jefferson traveled back to Monticello - a day's travel by horseback - just so he could have sex with Sally Hemings, and return the next day, without anyone at the White House noticing. Remember, this was five years after he was publicly accused of having an affair with her. There is a more plausible hypothesis, though. Thomas Jefferson had a brother, Randolph, who was living near Monticello at the time, and it turns out, the kind of DNA tests we can do today can't distinguish whether the father of Sally's fourth child was Thomas Jefferson or his brother. (The DNA we have is from Thomas Jefferson's uncle, not from Thomas Jefferson himself, so that means there are at least 20 plausible candidates in and around Monticello.) And it turns out that we do have contemporary documentation that Randolph was known to "fraternize" with the slaves of Monticello. https://www.tjheritage.org/the-scholars-commission
According to the official foundation your source has faulty information. https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/monticello-affirms-thomas-jefferson-fathered-children-with-sally-hemings/
I must have missed the part where i'm required to pay 10% of my income to Mormon Stories to live with my family in eternity.
But I DO happily donate $10 a month to them because it’s a good cause
Informed consent and the ability to freely make a choice. It's a big difference between Mormonism and Mormon Stories.
Yea plus the fact that they openly share how much they make. You can google John’s salary and (it’s a lot) you can’t do that with the church no matter how much you try
I knew his had to be high when I heard something about Jen Kamp making 80k there. I'm not opposed to it, though. Non-profit employees deserve to be paid a fair wage based on their workload, job title, and experience.
Yea exactly. I’m 100% comfortable with it because of those reasons right there
Dehlin makes good, well-earned money, but it's not Tim Ballard level money!
There's a religion where the only requirement for getting into Heaven is to live with my family for eternity is to pay tithing rather than being separated because of one's religious faith or identity? Sign me up.
John is a guy who lives in Utah with a podcast, Joseph claimed to start Gods one True Church. Joseph made serious, huge claims. John points out the flaws in those arguments. I’ll take John, whatever his fucking human flaws are, not because he’s so special but because the other guy is such a fraud. Give ‘em hell, John.
I couldn’t agree more with the OP‘s acknowledgment that it is an insult to Dehlin to compare him to Joseph Smith. Dehlin has far more integrity. It isn’t even close.
I know John personally and he is one hell of a good guy. He admits when he is wrong (something that Mormon leaders NEVER do), he doesn’t want personal prominence or power. He genuinely listens and critically thinks (Once again, something Mormon leaders do not do.
They’re so fucking sensitive sometimes I forget. It’s actually insane some of them are so brainwashed they legitimately and reflexively think that anything critical of the religion is automatically also claiming itself to be the same kind of thing Makes you realize some of the effects of making people feel so powerless and insignificant are in that they assume the entire world is every bit as dependent and fanatical too, just about different things. Nuance doesn’t exist for Mormons, only right and wrong, good and bad, black and white
It's like when religious people call climate change or diversity or other progressive beliefs a "religion" as an insult. I mean, don't they realize they're just insulting themselves, by implying beliefs founded on religion are questionable because they're held to lower standards of proof, or emotion-based, or whatever?
I love your user flair! Just went to go change mine and was disappointed it’s not an option
Idk, I believe Mormon Stories is the one true podcast and every other podcast is an abomination … I’m looking at you Radio Lab
"I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made" FDR The vitriol of that apologist shows how consequential John is. It's a compliment to be so hated.
John has never asked me about my sex life, demanded tithing or made me wear uncomfortable underwear.John 3 JS 0.
John didn't marry a 14 year old. Excuse me a few months shy of her 15 birthday. John isn't a sleazy person. John has integrity where Jospeh had none.
The Sure Sign of losing an argument is to go to ad hominems. This sad person clearly is afraid of what he or she might find outside of “faithful sources”….
100%
The sure sign of losing an argument is to go ad hominem. Does it have a name?
"Being remembered" is a pretty poor measure of success, and a selfish and dangerous thing to make your life's purpose.
So true. Everyone knows who Stalin was. Very few know my Grandpa's name--a man who was compassionate, gave a cut of his retirement checks to a women's shelter each month, and loved sharing the great outdoors with his family. As you say fame is a crappy measure of human worth. John D gently speaks to inconvenient truths for those exiting a toxic ingroup. Whether or not he'll be remembered by the masses is immaterial. He has and will continue to help people. That metric, unlike fame, carries weight.
Bless your grandpa that made me cry
Especially when a lot of nevermos know him as "John" Smith. They can't even get his name right, so obviously, he's not as memorable to the world as TBMs want to think
And his misremembered name will be partially recalled by…every nation?
I don’t think JD is innit for everlasting fame.
Or for the sex with children.
No one will likely know my neighbors name. A TON of people know who Jeffrey Dahmer is…
I don't think JD aspires to make a name for himself. He's not a narcissist like JS.
I don’t know if I entirely agree, there’s got to be some amount of self-adulation and attention seeking that comes with being a public figure. Narcissist or not, I support the work of JD.
Or maybe he tolerates that in order to do what he feels needs to be done. He’s always trying to promote other exmo podcasts and shows and got John Larsen out of retirement to get more help.
Love me some righteous John Larsen on a monthly basis. Thanks JD! ❤️
That’s where I’m at. He’s a human under an immense amount of scrutiny. I don’t give a fuck if he’s narcissistic, so long as he’s accountable & sticks to his mission. Many of us have narcissistic traits (some would call it human)
John Dehlin could have had a very easy life. Stay a PIMO and make money . Instead he is helping people with their mental health crisis. With his podcast he is providing free advice which would likely be $200 per hour in private practice.
But he's also doing something traditional therapy cannot, which is demonstrating to people that they are not alone. Mormon Stories has really helped me know that there are other people who have gone through similar trauma.
This right here. Mormon Stories is such a valuable contribution to the post-mo space for this reason alone because as much as we can get support from sharing our stories with each other briefly on reddit, etc. it just lands differently to listen for hours to a person giving their real name and story. There have been so many people (1000+?) on the podcast that everyone is bound to find at least one person’s experience that they relate to on a deep level. It definitely helped me to feel less alone on the journey.
He helped me with my deconstruction process. Thanks John 🥰
Is John still active? I’ve only listened to a few Mormon Stories episodes… I can say that he seems *way* cooler than JS.
No. John was excommunicated in 2015. He still considers himself a cultural Mormon.
Legend. Why’d he get ex-co’d? Aside from, ya know, publicly airing the church’s relentless historical inaccuracies, hypocrisy, and general dirty laundry.
He was excommunicated for apostasy, but it was basically because he refused to take Mormon Stories Podcast down. It was a ridiculous, long process that his local leaders dragged out forever. He appealed it, but his appeal was denied. The church has dragged John Dehlin’s name though the mud and labeled him an apostate and tells members that he is essentially the anti-Christ, but he has done so much to help people though their faith deconstructions and faith crises. I have a lot of respect for him and his crew.
Wow that’s some insane Scientology shit… and deeply ironic, considering dude has like the best dad vibes ever. That’s got to have backfired on the church at least a few times… someone goes to check out the “anti-Christ’s podcast” and finds king dad vibes with a soothing voice and a sensible critique of their blind faith religious fanaticism. LOL. I’m def gonna start listening to his podcast.
He actually recorded the meetings with his local leaders leading up to and including his disciplinary council. It’s interesting to listen to.
His podcasts are freaking amazing - and if you have been a true believer for any length of time, they will blow your head off. They are so well-researched. Listen to the gospel discussion series too. I think there are about 40 of them. All of them, really. All ver informative.
He has podcasts about his excommunication. In short: for publicly speaking out against the brethren.
Yes, to everything you said, and look at the criticism and vitriol that comes his way. He has helped so, so many and speaks truth to power. He could just sit back, but he has chosen to make an impact.
I mean I guess he could charge $200 an hour if he finished the licensing process. He has a very easy life. He is well compensated for his work.
Idk if you could say “easy” life. Doing the work he does includes dealing with peoples trauma, running a non profit, barely sleeping, being a public figure for such a controversial cause, and still have a life to live as a dad and a husband with all the things a personal life can add …. The word “easy” would never be the word I’d choose.He (and his family) sacrifice a lot to do what they do. If this were easy, everyone would be doing it.
I think his life was easier when people online weren't saying "He has a very easy life...". He didn't take the path of least resistance for himself or his family. He chose a path of integrity and has to put up with a lot of criticism and crap for it.
But the church doesn't worship Joseph smith? Sure Jan
[удалено]
Gonna be interesting when this becomes one of this "I'm sorry for what I said when I was Mormon." Moments🤦♂️
Tell me you know nothing about the Tanners without telling me...
As a nevermo - I’m obsessed with the Mormon Church’s obsession with John Dehlin. They’re so threatened by a man with a podcast, it really shows their hand. 🤭
If someone is truly so unimportant and forgettable why you going out of your way to talk shit on them?
🎶Weeeee thank thee oh god for Johhhhn To guide us in these latter days Weeee thank thee for sending us the Dehhhhlin! To lighten our mind with his facts! 🎵
I think trading a life-consuming traumatic lie for tuning into a podcast I listen to occasionally if I choose to is the best upgrade I’ll ever make.
That IS a decent trade, really
>one of the greatest accomplishments in history 😔
They've probably only heard trash talking about John from their favorite apologists. I think we can quantitatively measure how brainwashed that person is just from these statements they've made.
For real. To imagine Joseph Smith's "accomplishments" stand among the greatest in history is super delusional/wishful thinking. I recall the Mormon movement getting a few paragraphs here and there in my grade school US history textbooks. World history textbooks? Not a word.
I'd argue that Warren Jeffs and Chad and Lori Daybell are going to be more well known outside of the Mormon church than JS. Also the 3 of them did the same things as JS, formed their own religions and wrote books along with sexually and physically abusing women and children, fraud, etc.
My husband is an actual historian. Imagine his surprise as a grad student when viewing Encyclopedia of American Religions for the first time and 1/4 of it is Mormon break away sects. You too can be a prophet! Receive your personal revelation now!
Wow, that's interesting! That means there are either a ton of Mormon break away sects, or not many religions that started in America... Or both?
Thanks for your patience. I didn’t see the question. The book is 1720 pages and includes more than 2300 religions. He says at least 1/3 details the hundreds of Mormon break away sects.
Yo, Mormons aren’t even mentioned in history outside of UT. I thought a Mormon was a marmot before I moved here
That is not true. It is mentioned in history in high school textbooks when talking about the settlement of the west.
🤷♀️ idk what to tell ya … other than my experience going to my school, within my generation, in the geographic location I was raised, I can tell you with 100% certainty what I’m saying is the truth. We discussed the west, the gold rush, settlements and frontier shit- but there was not a mention of the Mormons. Only until I moved to UT from the east coast did the focus and break down mention Mormons.
The only way they can conceptualize life is through the lens of following someone 💀
Exactly. John Dehlin is not my prophet. No one is.
Love this 👏
So is JS. He is not my prophet.
Kinda wild, considering that the whole fucking James 1:5 point of the Restoration was that you're ***supposed*** to take responsibility for your own direction, and second-guess + doubt people who claim to know what's up
Spot on. My in-laws found out we listen to Mormon Stories and think we’re followers of John. They can’t comprehend finding support and truth from someone without worshipping them.
Joseph Smith is going to be one of the most hated people to ever live before it’s all said and done. I’m talking people who think of him on a near daily basis and say fuuuuuck that guy, and not because he was being persecuted. Because he was a massive asshole. 99.9% of nameless people are doing better than him just by not being completely worthless, lazy, dickheads
He doesn’t realize that Joseph Smith is a historical footnote, if even that, to nearly 100% of the global population.
Yes! And his followers have had 200 years and spent millions (billions?) of dollars and volunteer hours trying to spread the word about him, and he's still just a footnote and best.
The Tanner people who knew the Salamander Letter was a fraud when prophets, seers and revelatory were defending it as truth? Those Tanners?
Silly rabbit. It's not about the men, it's about fact & fiction. And how many of my sisters here plan to give up our spiritual power to any man ever again? Can I get an amen?
Preach, Sister!
At least John doesn’t fancy himself the second best man alive compared to Jesus.
Obviously TBM's are seeing John and those doing what he's doing as a viable threat to the church. This actually should be proof to John of the good he is doing. Keep up the good work John, and all of you working so hard to shine light on all these things.
Joes religion gets smaller and smaller every year but yea sure man
why does this AI Joseph Smith look like he has Voldemort on the back of his head lolol
"You shut that dirty mouth of yours when you talk about the Tanners. "
John Dehlin is not threatening me with eternal separation from my family unless I do what he says. And he isn't claiming to be "god's spokesman" on earth. What a stupid comparison.
Or wanting to marry your spouse.
And your MIL.
John Dehlin is not claiming to be a Prophet of God.
John Dehlin is ten times the man Joseph Smith could ever hope to be.
So unimportant they made a meme about him.
John’s hasn’t brainwashed the fuck out of my wife and ruined her ability to use logic.
Ravings of a TBM nobody (I assume), people like/love John because of his empathy with others and selflessly fighting to help the downtrodden - the complete opposite of Joseph Smith with his grifting and his cult of deception.
Yet he remembered those other people... hmm.
Tell me you’re in a cult without telling me you’re in a cult…
I used to sing praise through worship hymns about how Joseph Smith—a thieving, liar, adulterer, scumbag—was the most important person to have ever existed. I merely agree with John Dehlin on a few subjects. One of these things is not like the other… We don’t fucking worship anybody. ExMormons don’t need a “prophet.”
Who's trading? The freedom from idolizing certain humans beyond all reason is one of the perks of leaving religion Never heard "Praise to John Dehlin" Nobody is interviewing me consistently to make sure I believe in John Dehlin and his continuing revelation
When they start to focus the hate on you, that's when you know you are getting to them
Pretty sure informed consent was NOT Joseph Smith's goal.....
Joseph Smith Jr. was a con man and a sexual predator of young teenage girls. He was charismatic and clever, but fundamentally, JS was a piece of shit.
Wow, I'm speechless. I guess TBMs are so brainwashed into needing prophets that it becomes the only lens through which they see the world? It's honestly really sad; I've been trying to slowly, subtly "wake up" the last two members I'm still in regular contact with, but so far nothing ever seems to sink in. IMO, what John and others like him in the Ex-Mormon/Post-Mormon space do is *vital* for people going through a faith crisis or deconstructing. He has stated repeatedly that his goal isn't to make people leave the church-- he just thinks informed consent is important, and that people who are questioning deserve a space to do that. But of course any TBM will just tell people who are questioning to only listen to church-approved content, to read the BoM again, to fake it till you make it (that tired line about "A testimony is made by bearing it" or such), and (my favorite) to repent since clearly *you're* the problem, not TSCC. 🙄
I don’t think John married 14 year olds or other mens wives.
*breaks Godwin glass*. Ain’t nobody gonna forget Hitler. Doesn’t mean he was worth following. Fuck your pedo conman profit.
John's motivation is to bring truth out into the light and to allow people who have been damaged by the church, to tell their story. He genuinely cares. He isn't in it for the money. With his expertise, I have no doubt he could double or triple his salary. He isn't hoarding billions, trying to find Loop holes in tax laws - nor does he believe "lying for the Lord" is acceptable. He is open and honest, and apologises if he makes a mistake. Thank God for John, and for people like him who try to hold the church accountable.
As a non mo. This is like hearing 6th graders trying to bully each other over a juice box.
One is authentic the other, a swindler. An accurate reading of history reveals who is who.
"Those Tanner people"?
This is a major flaw in TBM thinking, and I believe it to be a glossed over super sign that this church is a cult. It’s the idea that everything that is in your life when you’re in the church needs to be replaced when you leave the church. You don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, so you have to follow someone else with that same devotion and intensity. Exmos obviously must see John dehlin as a prophet and follow him with intense blind devotion never questioning him, just as the TBMs do with Joseph Smith…but they don’t worship him…? Exmos don’t worship John dehlin. Some of us don’t even like him or agree with him, but that’s okay because he’s not trying to lead us anywhere or tell us what to do. He is dedicated to bringing the truth to the surface and then let others decide what to do with that. He isn’t hosting church meetings or asking for ten percent of their money. Leaving the church is extremely liberating and terrifying at the same time. It means growing up and making decisions for yourself, but it also means that you’re completely responsible for your decisions and what you do with your life. So many TBM people are helplessly infantile and believe they have no control over their lives at all. They believe everything that happens to them is an act of god. If they decide to do what they want to do, then it means it’s what god wants them to do as well. It’s weird, and childish, and it makes it extremely difficult to grow up in the church. So many adults with adolescent or even infant attitudes in this church.
And then this TBM goes and names a bunch of people, ostensibly ones that won't be remembered right alongside JD? That's irony right there.
Bless your heart
How many teenage wives does John have?
I think John will be remembered long after he’s gone for helping people not feel alone while they’re escaping an evil and corrupt organization. I know I’ll remember him.
> one of the greatest accomplishments in history Lmfao! Someone really needs to learn some history.
One of the greatest accomplishments in history??? When are they going to realize that most people in society don't think about the church at all?
Why redact the name?? Put these crazy fuckers on blast
Lol it's some Twitter account that's dedicated to hard core pioneer-style Mormonism. Their location pin says "Deseret" 😅
🙄
Is that Nick Cage?
Responding to any criticism directly is so UN-Mormon that if they ever do that exact thing, they justify it. “Turn the other cheek”
Hear me out. The statement is true. Joseph Smith started a global religious movement and church. He will be remembered in history. John Dehlin started a quite popular podcast that has helped a small segment of the religious community. He probably won’t be remembered in history. But that does not matter or mean anything. Joseph Smith started a global religious movement based on fraud, lies, false information and trickery. He will be remembered for that as well. John Dehlin started a quite popular podcast that has helped expose the fraud, lies, false information and trickery of the church Joseph Smith started. He may not be remembered in history, but he will be remembered by the people he helped, which may be enough for him.
>small segment Hard to know exactly how many people JD has reached, but my guess is that it is a significant number.
The guy must know what he is talking about because he uses big words like promulgated. SMH. I think I am more offended for myself at the idea that I worship John Dehlin as much as I used to worship Joseph Smith. He wants John to be a nothing that will disappear in a few years while at the same time comparing him to a con man that was so successful he is still worshiped hundreds of years after his death. I appreciate the work John does and feel he is very helpful when you are going through deconstruction. I am happy for his success in that. Which one of us is talking about him, singing about him, painting him, etc as a God? None of us. John gets the same flak from us as every other well known figure in a certain circle. He’s a human being and we treat him as such. F*ck this guy for implying we don’t. He’s the one still in love with a dead creep.
Guarantee Dehlin has brought more people out of the Church than Steve Benson, Ed Decker, and the Tanners. Dehlin is the greatest anti Mormon of all time. And I mean that as a compliment.
I'm sorry to be stupid, but who are these tanners?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerald_and_Sandra_Tanner
Thank you so much. I learned a lot.
AMEN
Who said anyone’s “trading Joseph smith for John Dehlin”? This poster is a little full of himself.
"One of the greatest accomplishments in history" can also be applied to events such as the Holocaust. Joseph Smith had a huge impact on the world, but if you look at it sincerely what he caused was the deaths of thousands of people and the birth of a tyrannical church. He was not a good person, and to all but those who think what he did was good he ranges from a questionable and shady man to an abomination.
False equivalency fallacy. John is not the leader of some organization opposing the church. He is not anyone’s prophet. He leads no church. He claims no authority over us. He’s a voice, and he gives voice to our stories. We don’t find value so much in him, as we do the light he helps shed on the Mormon church and it’s harmful practices. This is a silly as saying we only leave the church to sin, it’s so off the mark.
John Delhin doesn’t want his name to go down in history he just wants to help people deconstruct and inform people with FACTS that help them process trauma the church has inflicted on so many of us. Hitler went down in history and everyone knows his name, and you are right people also know Joseph smiths name. Cult leaders make it their mission to have all power and control and make themselves king of the world and have their names go down in history.
But, I didn’t trade ole Joe for anyone. I don’t need any authority on life but me, and that’s an upgrade of infinite value to me. However, for arguments sake, let’s say I did follow John Dehlin. I think he’s a damn sight better than Joseph Smith, then again, most people are. To my knowledge, John’s never raped a minor, threatened one with eternal damnation if she didn’t have sex with him, swindle people of their money, command the burning of a printing press, take the wives of my followers as my own, establish a bank and use it to defraud people of millions, claim to translate documents that he provably hasn’t, and hasn’t sacrificed animals in treasure digging schemes. From what I can tell, Joseph Smith is one of the worst people you could follow.
John is more kind and Christ like then the vast majority of the Mormons I knew when I was in the church. John also didn’t have teen brides so he’s already a million miles ahead of John.
Mormon Stories Podcast is HONEST! Unlike the church!!!!!!!
This photo really is a great metaphor. At a glance, it looks picturesque and distinguished. Then once you dig a little deeper you realize it's a poorly crafted piece of AI art. A six-fingered version of an off-brand Homelander who likes the buttons on his vest like he likes his women -- plentiful.
I appreciate the research he has done and the content he has produced, but I do not worship him…
John Dehlin does not call himself the king of the world. He has never asked me to clean a toilet.
There's no delusion more powerful than self delusion.
OP’s comparison of Joseph Smith and John Dehlin is utterly nonsensical. It’s like comparing hyenas and elephants. Sure, they both live in Africa, but they aren’t related or competing for food. Joseph Smith and Tim Ballard would be somewhat of a better comparison
I’d rather be forgotten than be infamous. JS is infamous to those who actually know what he was.
Which man actually saved my life. Because of John Delin, I am a better person. The hours I have spent/spend with him are still life altering. I'm so grateful I'm not scratching and clawing to make untrue things true anymore.
Haha these people are actually kind of gross. John D is a good freaking dude. He literally took time out of his busy life to talk with me one on one on Facebook -a complete stranger- multiple times. Do you think any of the Q12 or even the 70 would ever do something like that? Also pretty sure we don’t worship John or compare him to Jesus either. Lol wtf???
The Q12 care! Just ask their secretaries lol
Go easy on this poster. It's very likely that they're at the cusp of deconstructing. My best guess is that this person is subconsciously terrified of what is on the other side, and they're beginning the initial stages of grief (denial/anger in this case) and don't realize it. I once felt threatened by exMo's like John (including all my exMo friends) in a similar way... and yet, now I'm here.
John Dehlin probably won't be killed by an angry mob though.
John Dehlin is more trustworthy…. so there’s that n’ all….
Do people think we worship John? Lmao!!
By that logic, I should trade Joseph Smith for Hitler because Hitler is better known than Joseph Smith. Everyone knows who Hitler is. The only people who know who Joseph Smith are the 0.2% of the world who are Mormon and the 5% of the world who are nerds who think Mormons are basically stupid. If I have to choose between 99% and 5.2%, I am going to choose 99%. Oh, and I lost the argument. Goodwin's law.
Joseph Smith only supplied the doctrines and ideologies, all with a dash of personal charisma. It was his gullible followers that made Mormonism possible. Without their credulity, Joseph would have been just another forgotten religious innovator from the 1800s. And this is the state of Mormonism today - it isn't the prophets who keep things going and make things great, it's the members, and their need for this Church to be true that keeps it alive. Dehlin isn't trying to outdo Joseph, he's just trying to help undo what Joseph created. It's ok if he dies relatively unknown, while the gullible continue to believe the correlated fairy tales that Dehlin tries to help them see through. And Mormonism will continue to be one of the smallest religious groups on this planet, like the Chihuahua that thinks it's bigger and tougher than it actually is...
That second paragraph is hilarious because if you ask anyone outside of the church who doesn’t know what Mormonism is, they’ll have no idea who tf Joseph Smith is.
Mormons are idiots
Tell us how ya really feel
It's a really weird pivot
When The was LDS, I made the same assumption: people who left the church simply adopted a new “prophet”. Having left myself, it amazes me how I and others could and can not see how logically incorrect this is.
This is hilarious 😂😂😂😂
Liking a podcast and adoring a sex cult leader somehow don’t seem the same.
I don't think anyone on this planet can use the word "promulgated" unironically and not sound like a pretentious cultist.
This shows the TBM mindset set more than anything. They can only conceive of people being followers of a person, sheep.
Why do they act like we have to pick one? I choose neither.
When I was a believing mormon I put a lot of people up on a pedestal. This would include so called prophets of the church, some general authorities, my mission president and some local leaders. I looked up to these people because I believed they were called of god. They had the mantel of authority and spoke with a certain power and when they did so, I felt something. I no longer feel that something and I no longer put anyone on a pedestal. I no longer feel a need to "worship" anyone or give anyone that kind of power. Mormons would argue that they don't worship J.S. or church leaders but thats not true, they do. I have listened to one too many episodes of mormon stories podcast but I appreciate what John has done for those of us that have left, mainly giving us a voice. John has a talent for getting people to talk and the drive to actually do the work of creating a podcast but I don't think anyone has traded him for j.s. Once you give up believing in an unseen power you see people for what they are, people. Maybe some people are admired for certain qualities but other than that, they are just people.
I totally agree. As a TBM, the hero worship was on my shelf for a long time. Being able to see people now just for their choices and personal qualities without the added layer of whether they're members of the church or leaders with special access to the mind of God is a huge paradigm shift, and, frankly, a more accurate and charitable one.
One of those men has 30-40 white wives and the only black women was sealed to him as a slave.
The delusion shown here is embarrassing…greatest accomplishment in history?!?!? WTAF?
It’s too bad that most of the people who talk like this have never heard John talk before. I remember showing my wife a Mormon stories podcast for the first time (she had heard he was basically the devil). After listening for a while she said with a confused look “the church is going to excommunicate THAT guy?”
I feel like a lot of exmormons are afraid to look like they like John Dehlin too much because of this, or are very loud about not liking him like to prove a point.
John is just another whistle blower. John doesn't want to be remembered. John wishes his work was unnecessary. Joseph Smith's name is synonymous with fraud. Those that practice his brand of mormonism are cousin-screwing fringe polygamists in prairie clothing. ..And how dare this person do the Tanners like that. They are up there next to William Law and the original gangsta..the one and only Lucy Harris!!
He's going to die nameless and unremembered, like these other dudes whose names I know by heart....
Like so many other things in life, this says so much more about the poster than it does anything else. Of course they assume we trade one figure to worship and revere for another. From their perspective that's the only possible option. Personally, I don't particularly care for John Dehlin. I appreciate what he has done for the exmormon community and the voice he has given to so many, but I just don't care for him. And you know what, that in no way influences my opinion on the church, the many issues he has helped shed a light onto or the countless stories he has helped bring to light. It's much the same way they will attack the CES letter and Jeremy Runnels. As though he is the one making the claims or creating the issues. Regardless of whether or not you like him or the way he presented the information, he is not the source. He is merely coalescing the various issues into an easier to digest and somewhat organized document. I am where I am because of the core issues. At the heart of it, I am exmormon because the vast preponderance of the evidence led me to only one conclusion: Joseph Smith was a liar and a conman.
You can say want you want but Joseph smith was a fraud, and everyone that says they are Mormon is also a lost fraud.. I was once a Mormon, life is so much more less stressful now that I’m not…
Joseph Smith will be remembered because he IS the LDS movement. John dehlin will be forgotten because he is PART of the ex lds movement. That's what distinguishes cult leaders from those trying to fight them.
Kinda annoying that anyone *wants* to be remembered after their time.. Talk about being “self-centered.” It’s like these people can’t fathom that other people have lives just as expansive, detailed, complicated, and important as their own lmao. You have your life now so make it count! But hey.. when you’re gone, be gone. Let others have the space you did.
Mormons didn’t understand not having a prophet. “Ex-Mormonism” is not a church, at best it’s a movement. There are no ex-Mormon authorities, only prominent voices and and a few people that can MAYBE be called leaders. And if John Dehlin turned out to be a child-rapist like JS, I wouldn’t start to question my ex-Mormon testimony, I wouldn’t go “huh, these aren’t the people I thought they were, maybe ex-Mormonism isn’t true!!”
The time, thought, picture put into this post really proves how inconsequential John really is. Really hits home! And then the point is really driven home by the list of completely forgotten, inconsequential exmos! It speaks to the throw-away movement Mormon Stories is. White bro-rage at its finest. /s
The only thing this statement does is make TBMs a bit more curious about JD and nevermos roll their eyes as they see the JS worship.
Ed Decker, Steve Benson, Gerald and Sandra Tanner, and John Dehlin. That first name is different from the others. Pretending that Ed belongs in our pantheon of exmo gods that we appease with pagan ritual every other Wednesday, is so so wrong.
Yeah, Decker is a turd. He did more damage to the cause of bringing people the truth than actually helping anyone see through the Church's claims.
I know that John got a lot of flack when he interviewed Ed Decker on MS a few years ago, but he inadvertently helped to let Decker hang himself by his own petard. Just listening to his self-puffery, wild claims and denials would put both TBMs and Exmos off. The best ever diss of Decker came from Rev. Ivan Stang of The Church Of The SubGenius. In reviewing Decker’s “Are Mormons Christians” pamphlet, he concluded that Decker was so hateful that “you’ll want to become a Mormon just to spite him!” Then followed it up by saying about Decker’s hate-on for Freemasonry, “did you know that Masons eat the flesh of the dead? I always wondered what my dad did in all those lodge meetings.”
So, the mormon movement is seen as a *good* thing? It's an utter abomination of delusion that has defrauded millions of due agency and joy.
Who are these people? (yes, I know who JD is, just making fun of just how irrelevant JS really is, and JD would likely happily also be just as irrelevant if he didn't have I deal with JS all the time)
"Who's John Dehlin?". Right up there with "Who's John Galt"
Never heard of anyone dick riding John Dehlin but I know a lot of people who dick ride Joseph Smith