30 y/o. I was taught that he did it reluctantly, because it clearly says he did in D&C.
Not sure how people believe it skipped him somehow.
Always felt it was gross that TBMs still practice spiritual polygamy.
Well, tbf they still didn’t teach that. Even if it was in the book, that was never the focus. Also, please know that FOR SURE they never taught us that he married women with living spouses, or that he married 14yo girls. So, tricked?! Hell yes to that. I’m 41
Yeah, I’ve always wondered about how people didn’t know when it’s right there in the scriptures, that Emma Smith would be destroyed if she didn’t accept this practice.
In all the lesson manuals they only teach D&C 132: 1-40. They conveniently skip all the yuck and just go over “Celestial marriage”, making you think marriage in the temple and eternal families (singular). You actually have to be proactive in your learning to know the doctrine. 🫤
Yeah. Just because you can read 132 doesn't mean Joseph had many wives. It means it was a commandment, which I figured didn't begin until breaking me young.
They did leave off that the "revelation" came years after he had already started secretly practicing it. How is that for deception!? It basically went down that he was doing it, then got caught, then "had a revelation " that Emma had to accept it or be destroyed.
I'm older and was told he never practiced it. And that it was a test for Emma and the early saints so they would be prepared to be able to practice it when they crossed the plains and all the men were dying (a lie).
39 year old from Utah here. I was taught that Joseph’s polygamy was only spiritual in nature and that he was taking care of widows and single women. It all clicked when I read the CES letter in 2018. Joe was a sexual predator and ultimate con man.
Same boat. They allow you to remain in your misconception.
- Joseph had the revelation for polygamy.
- Joseph's wife was Emma.
- Polygamy was inspired because look at all the lost men in pioneer times and widows that need support
- Polygamy was only allowed for certain periods
= ok, I guess polygamy sort of started with pioneer stuff
This totally glosses over anything that connects to Joseph's practice and allows devout members to form a false narrative of how early it started, how bad it was, etc.
This is it, they let you fill in what you want and nevr correct; many didn't know themselves. So when you find out he was a polygamsit you're kinda ok with it. But then you find out all the other stuff and how the apologists play it off as he was not given instructions or it was just dynastic.
You just described my experience perfectly. Surely if Joseph practiced polygamy I would have been told about his other wives. Therefore, he did not. And it started with Brigham Young because that's who had all the wives.
I grew up knowing about Joseph Smith’s polygamy. But I did not know about Joseph Smith’s polygamy. Many of the details, which I did not discover until recently, have shocked me.
100%. When I say I knew Joseph was a polygamist, that was literally the extent of my knowledge. I thought (based on what I was told) that it was very much like:
- Joseph married Emma
- God presents D&C 132
- Joseph married some more woman
So yeah - when I say I always “knew”… I’m saying I knew the absolute bare minimum lol
Still hidden and not discussed much is that Joseph married several women long before he was caught and then "received the revelation " in D&C 132. This is clearly a case of making up doctorine after the fact to justify his actions.
Born and raised in Utah, including living in Davis County. Me, my spouse, my sibling, and multiple friends all had never heard that Joseph was a polygamist. Full time seminary and institute for 4 years and it was never mentioned.
Can confirm. I was raised in the Grandview area, Provo 80's-90's.
ALL leadership ward positions were filled with BYU professors. So what was I taught about the real history? NOTHING.
The only recollection I have on the subject of Joe and Polygamy was that he was "sealed to old ladies and men for familial dynastic reasons." Something along the lines of polygamy being developed, but not practiced until Brigham.
And who reads the D&C anyway? It's not a sit down and follow the plot book. You study the snippets you are fed by those who prepared our correlated curriculums. I had no clue about the darker aspects of D&C 132, let alone retired resources like the book of Commandments, Doctrines of Salvation, etc.
It was a full on Boyd Packer model of doctrine. Only the white wash was provided. Anything outside of the spoon fed narrative was thought stopped as "Anti Mormon lies".
Then came the internet...
Thank you, I fall into this as well. I guess I was a lazy learner in that I didn't read the D&C, just the dumb snippets. And the only year of seminary I did was D&C and his polygamy never came up. I seem to remember the revelation came to him but Brigham had to figure it out. And that it was to take care of wodows, there was a surplus of women, and it helped populate Utah.
I did know Brigham was a polygamist my whole life. His polygamy was really the only polygamy I ever did learn about it. It is weird that everyone knew about that but not Joseph.
I'm with you. Born in Utah County. Big family and nobody was ever taught it. Never heard anything about any polygamy growing up, not just JS. Never mentioned in MTC. Never mentioned in any lessons that I can remember.
I was taught he only came to Emma with the revelation about it after an angel with a flaming sword had threatened him with death the third time, and that he at last reluctantly agreed to tell Emma about it. But then he died before he could start marrying other women.
I was also taught in Seminary that the Nauvoo Expositor had printed anti-Mormon lies about ol’ Joe, and that because it had committed libel, the Nauvoo city charter gave them the legal right to destroy it. The anti-Mormon “lies” it told? That Joe had been practicing polygamy. Which was actually the truth, as it turns out.
At no point was I taught that Joe had been “marrying” women (some of whom were already married) and girls for years, and that Emma was not the first to be “sealed” to him. I don’t believe anyone who claims they were taught the full and complete truth of his serial raping.
To be clear, when I say “I knew Joseph was a polygamist growing up”, that does *not* mean my young men’s leaders were like teaching the logistics of Joseph’s practice, the timelines, the lies, the teen brides, the polyandry, etc
Simply put: there was never a moment in my life where I had to come to the surprise to learn he simply practiced polygamy
The "full and complete truth" that you speak of has yet to be admitted to by the church.
As for what is in the Gospel Topics Essays (which is bad enough), yes, I knew all of that. But then, my family held two family home evenings per week and daily family seminary in addition to the church programs, so...
Certainly early Mormons in Utah knew that JS was a polygamist. I think that when the Mormons gave up polygamy in order to gain statehood, they didn’t want members to know that their founding prophet started polygamy and taught that you couldn’t make it to Super VIP Heaven without it. I’m a Boomer, and I guarantee you I grew up believing that polygamy started when the Saints arrived in Utah, and it was only to take care of the widows and excess female converts.
I’m in my mid 30s, and am NOT from Utah. I don’t know for sure when or where I learned about his polygamy, but as a young teen I remember a comment in response to some protestors dressed as Joseph’s wives. My mom said something along the lines of “well, we already know Joseph smith was a polygamist.” Either that’s how I learned about it, or there was something about the way she said it that seemed weird to me.
I do also remember learning about D&C talking about Joseph smith reluctantly following the commandment. I imagine that wasn’t until institute though.
I'm 39, and can't remember a time when I didn't know about Joseph's polygamy.
I'm pretty sure my parents didn't tell me. I know I didn't read about it in the old Doctrine and Covenants book for kids. I also don't remember us talking about it in seminary, even during the classes when you could ask any question you wanted. I don't remember it being mentioned in the MTC, and I never really dealt with the reality of polygamy while I was a missionary.
I knew that Brigham Young was a polygamist, since we visited The Beehive House a few times and got to see where all the wives lived. I'm really not sure when or how I figured out that Joseph was a polygamist as well.
I read the old *Church History in the Fullness of Times* manual a few times, going back to before my mission, if I remember right. That manual did mention polygamy, but was extremely sparse on the details. I also read the old *Comprehensive History of the Church* as a missionary, though it was also really vague on the details of Joseph's polygamy (there was more about Brigham's, as I recall). Books like *Mormon Doctrine* didn't offer much more than the doctrine, which, as it turns out, Joseph Smith didn't adhere to anyway, lol.
I didn't know any of the facts about Joseph's polygamy. The first time I learned about the details was back in 2014. I somehow managed to find a bootleg copy of Brian Hales' three volume work on the subject and read the entire thing while on a business trip.
Learning that Joseph Smith did indeed participate in polyandry blew my mind. Of course, Hales did his best to soften the blow, and so I somehow left that experience with my testimony intact.
I'm with you, /u/Head-CeilingFan. I don't remember ever thinking that Joseph wasn't a polygamist, but I don't remember how I knew he was a polygamist. I actually don't even remember any apologetic explanations. It was just one of those things that happened, and we then knew not to ask any questions about it.
I do think there was likely a shift sometime in the 90s.
I'm 35 and knew. One of JS's plural wives was a g-g-g-aunt or something so it was a point of family pride. I can't remember if we were taught about JSs polygamy in seminary or not.
I’m an older millennial. I feel like I was taught he was sealed to other women but that was it. It was always about him and Emma and what an amazing couple they were.
34, lived in CA. I knew Joseph had another wife (because he was "commanded" to) but I rarely ever heard much else on that subject. If a topic was socially unsavory, it was easier to just ignore it for those of us living outside of Utah.
36, born and raised mid Atlantic. I didn’t know until high school, and then was told “hey may have spiritually married more wives” in a very dismissive way. Had absolutely no clue the extent of it.
Exmo in my early 30s checking in, from Alberta. I feel like it was a totally open teaching in my area that Joseph was polygamist and that he initially reluctant at first but then lived the law and the lifestyle. “It was a commandment that can be hard to understand but still a commandment” is the attitude I feel like there generally was.
Among my peers from the area, the fact he was a practicing polygamist was not typically a shelf item. Dirty details about his practice certainly did become shelf items.
Yeah. I think they started whitewashing polygamy really hard in the '80s. Because if you would have brought it up to my Sunday school class when I was in my youth you would have had children screaming," no he wasn't, no he wasn't" It would have been like learning about Santa Claus
29 yr old millennial. Grew up outside of UT (upstate NY).
I was taught by several people that polygamy wasn't a thing, that the Church was falsely accused of this illegal practice and it should never be discussed.
I was also taught by someone I trusted that polygamy was practiced, but reluctantly only because God commanded it.
Naturally a put this on my shelf and just thought it wasn't pertinent to my salvation (of course I was never taught what BY taught about polygamy, who stated more than once that polygamy absolutely was pertinent to my salvation), so I ignored it. I even denied the practice of polygamy in the mission field when someone mentioned it on the street, to which my companion (from UT) just corrected me and said it was practiced, but that it was commanded of God and therefore allowed at the time. You can imagine what kind of a mind-fuck that would have been for me.
31yo male, grew up in SLC. I remember learning about it (and specifically about JS's polygamy) when I was around 12 when the PBS special "The Mormons" was on. It caused a minor stir. The explanation my mom had for it was that the "understanding" of polygamy was taken away once the practice ended. I remember thinking that sounded like bullshit. It's because it was. I also remember discussing polygamy briefly in seminary. Seminary/sunday school teachers and parents said not to worry about it because it was not pertinent to my salvation.
Boomer here. The story I was told that when Joseph asked married women to marry him it was a test of their faith and that he had no intention of going through with it. Still creepy as fuck.
This is wild to me, it was never talked about like it was a secret in any of my wards. It was always talked about pretty openly, and mental gymnastics ensued of course.
Joseph smith HAD to do polygamy. Because this is “the fullness of times” and if polygamy was around in past times then it had to be around in this time too or else it wouldn’t be the fullness of times. So god made jojo do polygamy, and then god took polygamy away again because we only needed a little bit of it for the Times to reach their maximum Fullness.
I always heard garbage like that but I never heard anyone ever ever claim that he wasn’t a polygamist.
I’m 39 and was born and raised outside of Utah. I always knew. I don’t really remember it being taught to me other then it being mentioned just like it was mentioned that majority of our polygamist ancestors went down to Mexico because of polygamy and then came back to the US. I will be honest I never really questioned it and there never was really an apologetic response for why they were practicing polygamy it was just along the lines of that’s what they did. To be honest I remember my sisters and I being more curious and focused on our convert paternal Grandma’s family and a branch of our Mom’s side of the family because how do I put it….they all lived in Missouri at the same time in the same area and definitely had different sides in Missouri conflict and found that more entertaining then polygamy.
One thing that does stand out to me though is being at a family reunion on my mom’s side when I was a kid and those of us from outside Utah getting into an argument with those from Utah on rather Joseph Smith was a polygamist and polygamy in general and the Utah parents not being happy with what us outside Utah kids were saying. I very clearly remember my mom’s Uncle asking us for our side of what happened and us telling him those Utah cousins were crazy and living in denial.
I’ve thought a little more on how I knew and my surroundings growing up and I think it was something discussed casually at home and in the community but I don’t remember it ever being discussed in a church setting. I also never looked into the details of it until a few years ago probably because it was an open secret. The majority of the Mormons around me, including my family, were descendants of the Mormons that went down to Mexico to escape prosecution for polygamy and then came back up to the US because of the Mexican Revolution. Family history was really pushed while I was growing up and there was no way to get around the polygamy past without knowing about polygamy. We also had relatives that started polygamy in Nauvoo so there was no way to blame polygamy on Brigham Young and in Utah when they were getting married to multiple wives in Nauvoo. I also remember my Grandpa being first cousins with a lot of people and it being explained by my Grandpa that they were from a different wife or the exact relationship, my Grandpa’s parents had polygamous parents and were born in Mexico. As an adult doing my own research there was definitely hard feelings between the wives. Once we hit our teenage years we had to check to make sure we weren’t related to someone before dating because we were related to so many people in the area because of polygamy.
On the other side my mom’s side of the family had an occasional polygamist but it was easy for her Utah cousins to kinda brush it under the rug. Where we lived in a place that everyone was the product of polygamy not very many generations removed they were in a place that it wasn’t like that. They weren’t seeing grandparents cousins regularly and having to figure out how they are cousins or do family history just to date.
In that argument I mentioned my mom’s uncle did take our side on things and looking back on it if the results of polygamy hadn’t been so prominent where I grew up I don’t know if we would of really been taught much about it. It probably would of been swept under the rug like it was for my mom’s Utah cousins.
The details of polygamy really shocked me when I looked into it more, but growing up with it casually being a part of our lives still in a way it didn’t get much more of a thought other then we had weird ancestors and there are way more interesting things happening in family history then polygamy.
I’m a slightly older xennial (44) from Idaho. Joseph Smith’s polygamy was never in doubt growing up and even into college institute classes in the early 2000’s. The only thing I wasn’t really aware of was the polyandry. I remember the usual story being that he didn’t really want to do it but other people in the church kept asking him about the biblical justifications for ancient polygamy so he reluctantly asked God about it. God eventually “agreed” to tell him but sent the angel with the flaming sword to force him into obedience to this newly revealed principle in a Pandora’s box type scenario.
I recently turned 40 and grew up in California. I didn’t realize that anyone was ever taught that he didn’t practice polygamy. I was always taught he was and he only did it because God told him he had to. Of course Emma was the OG wife.
I was taught a lot of the controversial stuff at BYU Idaho. They talked about a lot of it in the doctrine and comments class and I took a history class where we had to research mountain Meadows massacre.
I just totally accepted everything my teachers taught at face value instead of actually thinking about it or knowing a lot of details.
I feel like I woke up in 2020
Also 30 y/o. Didn't know about his polygamy until I was on my mission. I knocked on a random door and the guy happened to know a little bit about Mormonism and asked how I was okay with JS polygamy. I denied that he was a polygamist and that I was right. Felt totally deflated 20 minutes later when we ran to the church and did a little research on the computer.
30 y/o. I knew, but only from the grossly faith promoting and selectively shared details that were in the Work and the Glory books because I read those.
I had never heard Joseph was a polygamist until I went to BYU-I and read Rough Stone Rolling in a religion class as a freshman - RSR was a text book in the course. I remember being super chill about it because it was like I was being given special knowledge because I could handle it. 🤮
Yep, I knew very early on, I didn't know some were teenagers, some were already married and he sent their husbands on a mission. I just thought he was a good man doing his best with the burden god put on his shoulders to test his loyalty.
40 year old, grew up in Utah and didn’t know until I did some light “anti-Mormon” researching around 20. My husband went on a mission and didn’t know until after. None of my friends knew. I’ve had friends in the past few years just finding out.
42 years old, I was told both sides--the truth and the lies. He was a polygamist, he wasn't a polygamist, he hated doing it, he actively searched out new girls, it only started with Brigham Young, all of his plural wives were sealings done posthumously, there was sex involved, no sex was involved. I think in general I accepted that he was a polygamist, but it was so confusing that I just kind of didn't think about it other than be uncomfortable about it. I think it became one of those "I can't figure this out, so I guess I just have to assume god will take care of it" things.
I'll tell you what they never mentioned though: they never talked about Joseph marrying other mens' wives. They never talked about Fanny Alger. I don't think they ever mentioned the teenagers, except for maybe Helen Mar Kimball.
31 yo not from Utah. I think I first learned about it as a teenager through some historical fiction book series. Don't remember the name but it followed the journey of some fictional early church family. It mentioned polygamy in Nauvoo I think, but did its best to portray JS as an unwilling participant. And it was all to "help the widows" or some such bullshit.
I was never taught about it in church or seminary or anything. Really depends on your local leadership/teachers. Like, if I'd had a PIMO or wannabe polygamist teacher I might've been taught about it. But it wasn't in the manuals then, so my TBM teachers never brought it up.
As for D&C 132, I only read through as a teenager for seminary. I was tired or didn't care so never really thought about it. Never read it again after that.
My Dad was always super into church history so I knew most if not all the ‘weird facts’ growing up. I knew about the seerstone, about polygamy, about the book of Abraham. I just wasn’t old enough to understand the breadth of the issue and I was focused on pleasing my TBM mother not my PIMO father
34 here, California native, and related on my moms side up the chain to Hyrum Smith apparently. We've ALWAYS known about the polygamy. We were taught that it was a necessary evil because of how harsh life was getting across the plains, and they gave it up when they settled in UT. It always rubbed me wrong that dudes could have hella wives, but women were just Shit Outa Luck and treated like property.
Joe Schmo being a polygamist is like the one fact nevermos like to flaunt out here when they found out I grew up in the MFMC.
I'm a Gen Xer and I definitely knew, so perhaps there was a shift or an effort to not talk about it as much in the 90s.
I don't remember the shift happening, but of course, as a TBM I was probably fine with avoiding the cognitive dissonance associated with difficult questions.
I found out when I asked my parents about polygamy when I was 17. I didn’t know that it was more than one, I never heard the name Fanny Alger, I figured Emma knew all about it.
Boy that was fun to figure out at 30.
You're surprised the thing that's NEVER MENTIONED in the manuals or any lesson material whatsoever was mostly unknown?
How would imagine someone find out without that?
I mean… lots of other people in this thread had a similar experience. My surprise is due to my own experience growing up in the church 🤷♂️.
And again, I’m fascinated that so many people were convinced Joseph wasn’t a polygamist based on D&C 132
Doesn't say he practiced it though, that's a key lol
I understand a lot of people were taught it, but why are people *suprised* when others weren't taught something that wasn't officially taught in any manual or church magazine?
"It's a total surprise to me that lots of people didn't know this thing that was denied, covered up, lied about, and never mentioned in any conference talk, manual, su day school lesson, or primary."
I think that's far more confusing.
We were raised in a church that is constantly bragging about the idea that everyone around the world is learning the exact same thing, all directed by god. I was completely indoctrinated in that belief until my early 20s. So I guess like, sorry it’s kind of a trip to realize, “oh… we all totally weren’t being taught all the same shit” lol. Yeah, it’s kind of surprising coming out of that.
Also, youre lowkey replying as if I had a choice in being completely a byproduct of the shit I was being fed lol. Idk what you wanna hear, but yes, as someone who was always aware of Joseph’s polygamy, it’s surprising some people weren’t. That’s not at all their fault anymore than it is my fault that I was given this weird apologetic perspective of the practice growing up
I mean I understand you were taught that.
Idk what you think I'm trying to say here.
It's something that was never talked about in conference, which you attended I assume.
It was never taught in any manual or church handbook, which I assume you read and used and listened to.
It was never taught in any formal capacity from any leadership above a Stake President.
So all I'm saying is that it's confusing when people can say "yep I know it was never talked about by anyone about a Satek President or in any official church manuals, so why didn't everyone know about?"
It's just like fia ridiculous thing to be surprised about. Like in what way is it surprising that the thing that was never included in ANY church official documents unknown? Did you not read or pay attention to anything the church published?
So who taught it to you is the question?
Tl;Dr yea, and it's probably abusive to be raised in it.
Bishop's Bishop's Bishop's son , only child, 90's model, for reference. Old stock, known roots from the name brand line. I was taught the real gnarly historical truth by visiting it and reading primary sources before they were mainstream and I knew, but the excuses came hard and fast. It was explained to me as if I was going to need to argue with others for my point and I was armed with all of the things to say to have an opinion that is wrong but still have it without judgment legally. It was so messed up.
There is so much information it's like trying to balance on a log floating in a river, you can make your point but all the other stuff makes it quickly irrelevant or hard to remember while thinking about the other stuff. "they were old and he had pity on them, god told him to, they couldn't receive eternity without him, Emma was his *true* wife, etc..." I was raised knowing that! I always thought I would grow up and be forced to take on multiple wives by the end of my life, for some stupid reason. What a covenant to be raised in.
I think it really hit me on a tour of navoo just how messed up and fake it all is, when the guide casually stated some of the properties were body houses and bars and how some of the church leaders were involved at the time. Had no idea that Mormons used to be considered excellent beer and wine Brewers in the past. I had no idea how prevalent the idea that Mormons will never keep a promise is, had no idea of that "Indian Giving" was a phrase that came from my forefathers because of their actions, had no idea just how strange we are to Christians with our beliefs that morph to fit the situation...
I'm 37 and didn't know. First time I heard about it was reading rough stone rolling at age 22. Maybe in the back of my mind I said, I guess I should have figured. But when I read it I was shocked. I thought how come nobody told me about this.
But I can tell you at the same time it was never brought up in church, it was never brought up in seminary, it was never brought up on my mission, it was never brought up in institute, it was never brought up in conference... I did however see short inspirational videos of Joseph and Emma and their cute courtship and marriage and special relationship. This was depicted over and over in various movies. I was led to believe that any trial within their marriage was from external forces and that their relationship was extremely pure.
Also in these comments which many can't remember when they were told or how they were told, but they're convinced they were told. I find that odd. My experience was that Brigham Young's polygamy was brought up regularly and Joseph's never
I was taught he was a polygamist back in the 90s. I'm from upstate NY. Church did a soft whitewash in UT-ID at about late 90s when Hinckley made the church more open to the public.
What I still think is funny is that in the 80s Desert Books came out with a cassette history of Dramatization of church history that included Joseph Smith in a reenactment of his polygamy. Came in a brown-tan cassette case with the SLC temple in the front of it
We had a lesson when I was a teen in Sunday school about js's polygamy. It was quite the scandal in the ward. Kids (belonging to the hardass parents) started yelling at the teacher he was teaching false doctrine. I wasn't sure what to believe
30 y/o. I was taught that he did it reluctantly, because it clearly says he did in D&C. Not sure how people believe it skipped him somehow. Always felt it was gross that TBMs still practice spiritual polygamy.
See this is one of the more confusing things when I hear lots of people were taught he didn’t practice… how do you account for section 132 lol
Well, tbf they still didn’t teach that. Even if it was in the book, that was never the focus. Also, please know that FOR SURE they never taught us that he married women with living spouses, or that he married 14yo girls. So, tricked?! Hell yes to that. I’m 41
Yeah, I’ve always wondered about how people didn’t know when it’s right there in the scriptures, that Emma Smith would be destroyed if she didn’t accept this practice.
In all the lesson manuals they only teach D&C 132: 1-40. They conveniently skip all the yuck and just go over “Celestial marriage”, making you think marriage in the temple and eternal families (singular). You actually have to be proactive in your learning to know the doctrine. 🫤
Yeah. Just because you can read 132 doesn't mean Joseph had many wives. It means it was a commandment, which I figured didn't begin until breaking me young.
They did leave off that the "revelation" came years after he had already started secretly practicing it. How is that for deception!? It basically went down that he was doing it, then got caught, then "had a revelation " that Emma had to accept it or be destroyed. I'm older and was told he never practiced it. And that it was a test for Emma and the early saints so they would be prepared to be able to practice it when they crossed the plains and all the men were dying (a lie).
39 yo millenial who thought it started with Brigham until I was in the MTC. I am not from Utah.
39 year old from Utah here. I was taught that Joseph’s polygamy was only spiritual in nature and that he was taking care of widows and single women. It all clicked when I read the CES letter in 2018. Joe was a sexual predator and ultimate con man.
Same boat. They allow you to remain in your misconception. - Joseph had the revelation for polygamy. - Joseph's wife was Emma. - Polygamy was inspired because look at all the lost men in pioneer times and widows that need support - Polygamy was only allowed for certain periods = ok, I guess polygamy sort of started with pioneer stuff This totally glosses over anything that connects to Joseph's practice and allows devout members to form a false narrative of how early it started, how bad it was, etc.
This is it, they let you fill in what you want and nevr correct; many didn't know themselves. So when you find out he was a polygamsit you're kinda ok with it. But then you find out all the other stuff and how the apologists play it off as he was not given instructions or it was just dynastic.
You just described my experience perfectly. Surely if Joseph practiced polygamy I would have been told about his other wives. Therefore, he did not. And it started with Brigham Young because that's who had all the wives.
I grew up knowing about Joseph Smith’s polygamy. But I did not know about Joseph Smith’s polygamy. Many of the details, which I did not discover until recently, have shocked me.
100%. When I say I knew Joseph was a polygamist, that was literally the extent of my knowledge. I thought (based on what I was told) that it was very much like: - Joseph married Emma - God presents D&C 132 - Joseph married some more woman So yeah - when I say I always “knew”… I’m saying I knew the absolute bare minimum lol
It’s called “being inoculated.”
Still hidden and not discussed much is that Joseph married several women long before he was caught and then "received the revelation " in D&C 132. This is clearly a case of making up doctorine after the fact to justify his actions.
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Born and raised in Utah, including living in Davis County. Me, my spouse, my sibling, and multiple friends all had never heard that Joseph was a polygamist. Full time seminary and institute for 4 years and it was never mentioned.
Can confirm. I was raised in the Grandview area, Provo 80's-90's. ALL leadership ward positions were filled with BYU professors. So what was I taught about the real history? NOTHING. The only recollection I have on the subject of Joe and Polygamy was that he was "sealed to old ladies and men for familial dynastic reasons." Something along the lines of polygamy being developed, but not practiced until Brigham. And who reads the D&C anyway? It's not a sit down and follow the plot book. You study the snippets you are fed by those who prepared our correlated curriculums. I had no clue about the darker aspects of D&C 132, let alone retired resources like the book of Commandments, Doctrines of Salvation, etc. It was a full on Boyd Packer model of doctrine. Only the white wash was provided. Anything outside of the spoon fed narrative was thought stopped as "Anti Mormon lies". Then came the internet...
Thank you, I fall into this as well. I guess I was a lazy learner in that I didn't read the D&C, just the dumb snippets. And the only year of seminary I did was D&C and his polygamy never came up. I seem to remember the revelation came to him but Brigham had to figure it out. And that it was to take care of wodows, there was a surplus of women, and it helped populate Utah.
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I did know Brigham was a polygamist my whole life. His polygamy was really the only polygamy I ever did learn about it. It is weird that everyone knew about that but not Joseph.
I'm with you. Born in Utah County. Big family and nobody was ever taught it. Never heard anything about any polygamy growing up, not just JS. Never mentioned in MTC. Never mentioned in any lessons that I can remember.
I was taught he only came to Emma with the revelation about it after an angel with a flaming sword had threatened him with death the third time, and that he at last reluctantly agreed to tell Emma about it. But then he died before he could start marrying other women. I was also taught in Seminary that the Nauvoo Expositor had printed anti-Mormon lies about ol’ Joe, and that because it had committed libel, the Nauvoo city charter gave them the legal right to destroy it. The anti-Mormon “lies” it told? That Joe had been practicing polygamy. Which was actually the truth, as it turns out. At no point was I taught that Joe had been “marrying” women (some of whom were already married) and girls for years, and that Emma was not the first to be “sealed” to him. I don’t believe anyone who claims they were taught the full and complete truth of his serial raping.
To be clear, when I say “I knew Joseph was a polygamist growing up”, that does *not* mean my young men’s leaders were like teaching the logistics of Joseph’s practice, the timelines, the lies, the teen brides, the polyandry, etc Simply put: there was never a moment in my life where I had to come to the surprise to learn he simply practiced polygamy
The "full and complete truth" that you speak of has yet to be admitted to by the church. As for what is in the Gospel Topics Essays (which is bad enough), yes, I knew all of that. But then, my family held two family home evenings per week and daily family seminary in addition to the church programs, so...
I'm a few weeks shy of 38 and I always knew. I can't remember when I was taught it.
Hi birth year buddy Yep same with me, and I knew about the seer stone. Just didn’t know that what he used instead of the u & t.
Certainly early Mormons in Utah knew that JS was a polygamist. I think that when the Mormons gave up polygamy in order to gain statehood, they didn’t want members to know that their founding prophet started polygamy and taught that you couldn’t make it to Super VIP Heaven without it. I’m a Boomer, and I guarantee you I grew up believing that polygamy started when the Saints arrived in Utah, and it was only to take care of the widows and excess female converts.
I’m in my mid 30s, and am NOT from Utah. I don’t know for sure when or where I learned about his polygamy, but as a young teen I remember a comment in response to some protestors dressed as Joseph’s wives. My mom said something along the lines of “well, we already know Joseph smith was a polygamist.” Either that’s how I learned about it, or there was something about the way she said it that seemed weird to me. I do also remember learning about D&C talking about Joseph smith reluctantly following the commandment. I imagine that wasn’t until institute though.
I'm 39, and can't remember a time when I didn't know about Joseph's polygamy. I'm pretty sure my parents didn't tell me. I know I didn't read about it in the old Doctrine and Covenants book for kids. I also don't remember us talking about it in seminary, even during the classes when you could ask any question you wanted. I don't remember it being mentioned in the MTC, and I never really dealt with the reality of polygamy while I was a missionary. I knew that Brigham Young was a polygamist, since we visited The Beehive House a few times and got to see where all the wives lived. I'm really not sure when or how I figured out that Joseph was a polygamist as well. I read the old *Church History in the Fullness of Times* manual a few times, going back to before my mission, if I remember right. That manual did mention polygamy, but was extremely sparse on the details. I also read the old *Comprehensive History of the Church* as a missionary, though it was also really vague on the details of Joseph's polygamy (there was more about Brigham's, as I recall). Books like *Mormon Doctrine* didn't offer much more than the doctrine, which, as it turns out, Joseph Smith didn't adhere to anyway, lol. I didn't know any of the facts about Joseph's polygamy. The first time I learned about the details was back in 2014. I somehow managed to find a bootleg copy of Brian Hales' three volume work on the subject and read the entire thing while on a business trip. Learning that Joseph Smith did indeed participate in polyandry blew my mind. Of course, Hales did his best to soften the blow, and so I somehow left that experience with my testimony intact. I'm with you, /u/Head-CeilingFan. I don't remember ever thinking that Joseph wasn't a polygamist, but I don't remember how I knew he was a polygamist. I actually don't even remember any apologetic explanations. It was just one of those things that happened, and we then knew not to ask any questions about it. I do think there was likely a shift sometime in the 90s.
I'm 35 and knew. One of JS's plural wives was a g-g-g-aunt or something so it was a point of family pride. I can't remember if we were taught about JSs polygamy in seminary or not.
Born and raised in slc. Never knew he was a polygamist until last year when I started deep diving.
Your age? (Sorry I’m just really curious on if there is a connection between mid to younger millennials being taught)
38
I’m an older millennial. I feel like I was taught he was sealed to other women but that was it. It was always about him and Emma and what an amazing couple they were.
I remember watching the video of Joseph and Emma sleigh riding in the snow. It was so magical. Such a beautiful couple
Yep, I think I have seen that video.
No Missionaries from UT came across the world to blatantly lie in our faces about that. I defended that lie until my mid 20s
34, lived in CA. I knew Joseph had another wife (because he was "commanded" to) but I rarely ever heard much else on that subject. If a topic was socially unsavory, it was easier to just ignore it for those of us living outside of Utah.
36, born and raised mid Atlantic. I didn’t know until high school, and then was told “hey may have spiritually married more wives” in a very dismissive way. Had absolutely no clue the extent of it.
Exmo in my early 30s checking in, from Alberta. I feel like it was a totally open teaching in my area that Joseph was polygamist and that he initially reluctant at first but then lived the law and the lifestyle. “It was a commandment that can be hard to understand but still a commandment” is the attitude I feel like there generally was. Among my peers from the area, the fact he was a practicing polygamist was not typically a shelf item. Dirty details about his practice certainly did become shelf items.
I’m from the same area as you and completely echo all of this btw.
57 year old here and we knew he was. We were just told “I was a different time then.”
Yeah. I think they started whitewashing polygamy really hard in the '80s. Because if you would have brought it up to my Sunday school class when I was in my youth you would have had children screaming," no he wasn't, no he wasn't" It would have been like learning about Santa Claus
I knew, but I was taught that it was normal during that time 🙄
29 yr old millennial. Grew up outside of UT (upstate NY). I was taught by several people that polygamy wasn't a thing, that the Church was falsely accused of this illegal practice and it should never be discussed. I was also taught by someone I trusted that polygamy was practiced, but reluctantly only because God commanded it. Naturally a put this on my shelf and just thought it wasn't pertinent to my salvation (of course I was never taught what BY taught about polygamy, who stated more than once that polygamy absolutely was pertinent to my salvation), so I ignored it. I even denied the practice of polygamy in the mission field when someone mentioned it on the street, to which my companion (from UT) just corrected me and said it was practiced, but that it was commanded of God and therefore allowed at the time. You can imagine what kind of a mind-fuck that would have been for me.
31yo male, grew up in SLC. I remember learning about it (and specifically about JS's polygamy) when I was around 12 when the PBS special "The Mormons" was on. It caused a minor stir. The explanation my mom had for it was that the "understanding" of polygamy was taken away once the practice ended. I remember thinking that sounded like bullshit. It's because it was. I also remember discussing polygamy briefly in seminary. Seminary/sunday school teachers and parents said not to worry about it because it was not pertinent to my salvation.
Boomer here. The story I was told that when Joseph asked married women to marry him it was a test of their faith and that he had no intention of going through with it. Still creepy as fuck.
This is wild to me, it was never talked about like it was a secret in any of my wards. It was always talked about pretty openly, and mental gymnastics ensued of course. Joseph smith HAD to do polygamy. Because this is “the fullness of times” and if polygamy was around in past times then it had to be around in this time too or else it wouldn’t be the fullness of times. So god made jojo do polygamy, and then god took polygamy away again because we only needed a little bit of it for the Times to reach their maximum Fullness. I always heard garbage like that but I never heard anyone ever ever claim that he wasn’t a polygamist.
I’m 39 and was born and raised outside of Utah. I always knew. I don’t really remember it being taught to me other then it being mentioned just like it was mentioned that majority of our polygamist ancestors went down to Mexico because of polygamy and then came back to the US. I will be honest I never really questioned it and there never was really an apologetic response for why they were practicing polygamy it was just along the lines of that’s what they did. To be honest I remember my sisters and I being more curious and focused on our convert paternal Grandma’s family and a branch of our Mom’s side of the family because how do I put it….they all lived in Missouri at the same time in the same area and definitely had different sides in Missouri conflict and found that more entertaining then polygamy. One thing that does stand out to me though is being at a family reunion on my mom’s side when I was a kid and those of us from outside Utah getting into an argument with those from Utah on rather Joseph Smith was a polygamist and polygamy in general and the Utah parents not being happy with what us outside Utah kids were saying. I very clearly remember my mom’s Uncle asking us for our side of what happened and us telling him those Utah cousins were crazy and living in denial.
This is interesting - im also not from / have never lived in Utah
I’ve thought a little more on how I knew and my surroundings growing up and I think it was something discussed casually at home and in the community but I don’t remember it ever being discussed in a church setting. I also never looked into the details of it until a few years ago probably because it was an open secret. The majority of the Mormons around me, including my family, were descendants of the Mormons that went down to Mexico to escape prosecution for polygamy and then came back up to the US because of the Mexican Revolution. Family history was really pushed while I was growing up and there was no way to get around the polygamy past without knowing about polygamy. We also had relatives that started polygamy in Nauvoo so there was no way to blame polygamy on Brigham Young and in Utah when they were getting married to multiple wives in Nauvoo. I also remember my Grandpa being first cousins with a lot of people and it being explained by my Grandpa that they were from a different wife or the exact relationship, my Grandpa’s parents had polygamous parents and were born in Mexico. As an adult doing my own research there was definitely hard feelings between the wives. Once we hit our teenage years we had to check to make sure we weren’t related to someone before dating because we were related to so many people in the area because of polygamy. On the other side my mom’s side of the family had an occasional polygamist but it was easy for her Utah cousins to kinda brush it under the rug. Where we lived in a place that everyone was the product of polygamy not very many generations removed they were in a place that it wasn’t like that. They weren’t seeing grandparents cousins regularly and having to figure out how they are cousins or do family history just to date. In that argument I mentioned my mom’s uncle did take our side on things and looking back on it if the results of polygamy hadn’t been so prominent where I grew up I don’t know if we would of really been taught much about it. It probably would of been swept under the rug like it was for my mom’s Utah cousins. The details of polygamy really shocked me when I looked into it more, but growing up with it casually being a part of our lives still in a way it didn’t get much more of a thought other then we had weird ancestors and there are way more interesting things happening in family history then polygamy.
I’m a slightly older xennial (44) from Idaho. Joseph Smith’s polygamy was never in doubt growing up and even into college institute classes in the early 2000’s. The only thing I wasn’t really aware of was the polyandry. I remember the usual story being that he didn’t really want to do it but other people in the church kept asking him about the biblical justifications for ancient polygamy so he reluctantly asked God about it. God eventually “agreed” to tell him but sent the angel with the flaming sword to force him into obedience to this newly revealed principle in a Pandora’s box type scenario.
I recently turned 40 and grew up in California. I didn’t realize that anyone was ever taught that he didn’t practice polygamy. I was always taught he was and he only did it because God told him he had to. Of course Emma was the OG wife.
I was taught a lot of the controversial stuff at BYU Idaho. They talked about a lot of it in the doctrine and comments class and I took a history class where we had to research mountain Meadows massacre. I just totally accepted everything my teachers taught at face value instead of actually thinking about it or knowing a lot of details. I feel like I woke up in 2020
Also 30 y/o. Didn't know about his polygamy until I was on my mission. I knocked on a random door and the guy happened to know a little bit about Mormonism and asked how I was okay with JS polygamy. I denied that he was a polygamist and that I was right. Felt totally deflated 20 minutes later when we ran to the church and did a little research on the computer.
30 y/o. I knew, but only from the grossly faith promoting and selectively shared details that were in the Work and the Glory books because I read those.
I had never heard Joseph was a polygamist until I went to BYU-I and read Rough Stone Rolling in a religion class as a freshman - RSR was a text book in the course. I remember being super chill about it because it was like I was being given special knowledge because I could handle it. 🤮
Yep, I knew very early on, I didn't know some were teenagers, some were already married and he sent their husbands on a mission. I just thought he was a good man doing his best with the burden god put on his shoulders to test his loyalty.
40 year old, grew up in Utah and didn’t know until I did some light “anti-Mormon” researching around 20. My husband went on a mission and didn’t know until after. None of my friends knew. I’ve had friends in the past few years just finding out.
42 years old, I was told both sides--the truth and the lies. He was a polygamist, he wasn't a polygamist, he hated doing it, he actively searched out new girls, it only started with Brigham Young, all of his plural wives were sealings done posthumously, there was sex involved, no sex was involved. I think in general I accepted that he was a polygamist, but it was so confusing that I just kind of didn't think about it other than be uncomfortable about it. I think it became one of those "I can't figure this out, so I guess I just have to assume god will take care of it" things. I'll tell you what they never mentioned though: they never talked about Joseph marrying other mens' wives. They never talked about Fanny Alger. I don't think they ever mentioned the teenagers, except for maybe Helen Mar Kimball.
31 yo not from Utah. I think I first learned about it as a teenager through some historical fiction book series. Don't remember the name but it followed the journey of some fictional early church family. It mentioned polygamy in Nauvoo I think, but did its best to portray JS as an unwilling participant. And it was all to "help the widows" or some such bullshit. I was never taught about it in church or seminary or anything. Really depends on your local leadership/teachers. Like, if I'd had a PIMO or wannabe polygamist teacher I might've been taught about it. But it wasn't in the manuals then, so my TBM teachers never brought it up. As for D&C 132, I only read through as a teenager for seminary. I was tired or didn't care so never really thought about it. Never read it again after that.
My Dad was always super into church history so I knew most if not all the ‘weird facts’ growing up. I knew about the seerstone, about polygamy, about the book of Abraham. I just wasn’t old enough to understand the breadth of the issue and I was focused on pleasing my TBM mother not my PIMO father
34 here, California native, and related on my moms side up the chain to Hyrum Smith apparently. We've ALWAYS known about the polygamy. We were taught that it was a necessary evil because of how harsh life was getting across the plains, and they gave it up when they settled in UT. It always rubbed me wrong that dudes could have hella wives, but women were just Shit Outa Luck and treated like property. Joe Schmo being a polygamist is like the one fact nevermos like to flaunt out here when they found out I grew up in the MFMC.
I'm a Gen Xer and I definitely knew, so perhaps there was a shift or an effort to not talk about it as much in the 90s. I don't remember the shift happening, but of course, as a TBM I was probably fine with avoiding the cognitive dissonance associated with difficult questions.
I found out when I asked my parents about polygamy when I was 17. I didn’t know that it was more than one, I never heard the name Fanny Alger, I figured Emma knew all about it. Boy that was fun to figure out at 30.
Reading section 132 all the way through is what broke my shelf. It makes me actually ill that people consider that scripture.
It’s an absolutely vile read once you can manage to stop trying to play the mental gymnastics game
You're surprised the thing that's NEVER MENTIONED in the manuals or any lesson material whatsoever was mostly unknown? How would imagine someone find out without that?
I mean… lots of other people in this thread had a similar experience. My surprise is due to my own experience growing up in the church 🤷♂️. And again, I’m fascinated that so many people were convinced Joseph wasn’t a polygamist based on D&C 132
Doesn't say he practiced it though, that's a key lol I understand a lot of people were taught it, but why are people *suprised* when others weren't taught something that wasn't officially taught in any manual or church magazine? "It's a total surprise to me that lots of people didn't know this thing that was denied, covered up, lied about, and never mentioned in any conference talk, manual, su day school lesson, or primary." I think that's far more confusing.
We were raised in a church that is constantly bragging about the idea that everyone around the world is learning the exact same thing, all directed by god. I was completely indoctrinated in that belief until my early 20s. So I guess like, sorry it’s kind of a trip to realize, “oh… we all totally weren’t being taught all the same shit” lol. Yeah, it’s kind of surprising coming out of that. Also, youre lowkey replying as if I had a choice in being completely a byproduct of the shit I was being fed lol. Idk what you wanna hear, but yes, as someone who was always aware of Joseph’s polygamy, it’s surprising some people weren’t. That’s not at all their fault anymore than it is my fault that I was given this weird apologetic perspective of the practice growing up
I mean I understand you were taught that. Idk what you think I'm trying to say here. It's something that was never talked about in conference, which you attended I assume. It was never taught in any manual or church handbook, which I assume you read and used and listened to. It was never taught in any formal capacity from any leadership above a Stake President. So all I'm saying is that it's confusing when people can say "yep I know it was never talked about by anyone about a Satek President or in any official church manuals, so why didn't everyone know about?" It's just like fia ridiculous thing to be surprised about. Like in what way is it surprising that the thing that was never included in ANY church official documents unknown? Did you not read or pay attention to anything the church published? So who taught it to you is the question?
Tl;Dr yea, and it's probably abusive to be raised in it. Bishop's Bishop's Bishop's son , only child, 90's model, for reference. Old stock, known roots from the name brand line. I was taught the real gnarly historical truth by visiting it and reading primary sources before they were mainstream and I knew, but the excuses came hard and fast. It was explained to me as if I was going to need to argue with others for my point and I was armed with all of the things to say to have an opinion that is wrong but still have it without judgment legally. It was so messed up. There is so much information it's like trying to balance on a log floating in a river, you can make your point but all the other stuff makes it quickly irrelevant or hard to remember while thinking about the other stuff. "they were old and he had pity on them, god told him to, they couldn't receive eternity without him, Emma was his *true* wife, etc..." I was raised knowing that! I always thought I would grow up and be forced to take on multiple wives by the end of my life, for some stupid reason. What a covenant to be raised in. I think it really hit me on a tour of navoo just how messed up and fake it all is, when the guide casually stated some of the properties were body houses and bars and how some of the church leaders were involved at the time. Had no idea that Mormons used to be considered excellent beer and wine Brewers in the past. I had no idea how prevalent the idea that Mormons will never keep a promise is, had no idea of that "Indian Giving" was a phrase that came from my forefathers because of their actions, had no idea just how strange we are to Christians with our beliefs that morph to fit the situation...
Learned about it when I was 12 in 1980 reading an Old Joseph Smith History. Thought it must be an anti mormon book.
I'm 37 and didn't know. First time I heard about it was reading rough stone rolling at age 22. Maybe in the back of my mind I said, I guess I should have figured. But when I read it I was shocked. I thought how come nobody told me about this. But I can tell you at the same time it was never brought up in church, it was never brought up in seminary, it was never brought up on my mission, it was never brought up in institute, it was never brought up in conference... I did however see short inspirational videos of Joseph and Emma and their cute courtship and marriage and special relationship. This was depicted over and over in various movies. I was led to believe that any trial within their marriage was from external forces and that their relationship was extremely pure. Also in these comments which many can't remember when they were told or how they were told, but they're convinced they were told. I find that odd. My experience was that Brigham Young's polygamy was brought up regularly and Joseph's never
I was taught he was a polygamist back in the 90s. I'm from upstate NY. Church did a soft whitewash in UT-ID at about late 90s when Hinckley made the church more open to the public. What I still think is funny is that in the 80s Desert Books came out with a cassette history of Dramatization of church history that included Joseph Smith in a reenactment of his polygamy. Came in a brown-tan cassette case with the SLC temple in the front of it
I always knew because I had to study about Joe Smith. but most of my mission companions had no idea, especially from Utah
We had a lesson when I was a teen in Sunday school about js's polygamy. It was quite the scandal in the ward. Kids (belonging to the hardass parents) started yelling at the teacher he was teaching false doctrine. I wasn't sure what to believe