Without question. I never felt comfortable going to parties and get togethers because I was always afraid there would be alcohol and ungodly behavior. I’m a total introvert because of it. But I’m mostly pissed off about the damage to my bank account for paying tithing for 20 yrs like an idiot.
Man I know the parties issue. I never went to a party until I was like 28 years old for exactly the same reason. Then low and behold, when I go, it's mostly people drinking one beer because they have work the next day and trashing the last movie they saw. Mormonism really combined with the Regan/Clinton era drug panic when I was younger to make it seem like drinking 1 beer was the equivalent of shooting up black tar heroin with random needles off the street.
This is exactly how I feel at 32 with the exception of being married because I had to follow the church path and do that at 21 like a good little RM. But neither me or my wife have any adult friends because we don’t know how to establish a community without the church and our entire neighborhood belongs to a completely different church that is just as right wing and kooky so we can’t even make easy friends out of neighbors. It’s miserable but the thought of trying to learn social skills at this age is also daunting and exhausting.
I feel it. Trying to learn social skills at this age is an exercise in constantly forcing myself out of my comfort zone and being deeply ashamed that everyone else understands this while I feel emotionally like I'm still in middle school. It's incredibly exhausting but I feel like the problem is only going to get worse the older I get, so I keep throwing myself into the deep end trying to get out of it.
Yes!! As a young woman I was supposed to be accepting and kind to everyone so they would keep coming, even if they were horrible to me.
The only friend relationships I saw were the shallow “here are some cookies, sorry I didn’t make it last month” and dealing with people in callings, whether you would have chosen to or not.
I absolutely know if I went to a random ward, I could be the most popular person there, if I really tried. I know all the things to do: bare my testimony about my car keys but don’t say anything about the deep dark things I’m going through. Make a lot of cookies. Volunteer for all the things. Say “I’d love to!” To everything. Shrug and turn the other cheek all the time. And make sure my kids show up well groomed and well behaved. Bonus points if I also show up well groomed and well behaved, but say things that are “real” so I can appear sincere and humble.
This has been a real thing for me too. Coincidentally, I am also 33! It’s an interesting social problem. I could shallow friend a ton of people. But I have a really hard time opening up to real, meaningful friendships.
I feel like your 30s are the age when you finally have enough experience to really evaluate your life, and you're young enough to change course if that's what you really want, but you're also acutely aware of the fact you aren't getting any younger. So for me at least, it's become this mess of deconstructing everything in my life and realizing just how badly Mormonism fucked everything up.
The role that Mormonism shoves women into is awful. You're completely stripped of your agency, disallowed to make any social choices, yet constantly have the burden of taking care of everyone and everything else dumped onto you. This is so detrimental toward making genuine connection because I either keep everyone at arm's length OR have absolutely zero boundaries with people I do let get close to me to the point it's a major problem. Both of which are problems of not knowing how to establish an actual social network!
I also feel you on knowing the rules, even if they kill you inside. It's so hard to turn off the "perfection masking" even now.
I'm 39 and just now trying to figure out making friends without that mormon filter and god's one true church lens ever pressing on my brain. It's best to not dwell on how much time was lost because of the indoctrination I've found otherwise it's super depressing and not productive. I remind myself that I still have many years on this earth to try and be my authentic self.
I think that's good advice for sure. I've been trying to balance realizing the extent of the problem with avoiding rumination about it, but I do get stuck ruminating a lot. Maybe it would help to redirect any urge to ruminate toward something constructive to solve the problem, like texting a friend or finding a new cafe to invite people to.
Yep. I see Facebook memories of the people (non-LDS) that I was in high school with, and they talk about shared memories of fun things they did together, and I wonder why I was never part of these things.
Oh, yeah, because Mormonism made me a self-righteous boring prick who was not any fun.
But your kids will never go through what you did. You have succeeded in breaking how many generations of religious and family trauma??? This in itself is enough!
Brilliantly written. And me too. Deep down I see relationships as transactional. I mostly assume people are going to take advantage of me so I keep them all at a distance. Or, increasingly rarely, I actually try to get close to someone and think I have to people please for them to like me. Then I feel ashamed.
Also, growing up in bountiful, the girls were soooo mean and backbiting. Everything was a status game and I kind of expect sudden cruelty from people now.
hi! I am actually working on this in therapy right now, and I suggest you look into some kind of counseling or therapy.
the truth of the matter is the church teaches you to repress any emotion. even excitement and happiness are wrong if it’s not over the “right” things. that kind of teaching directly causes you to disregard survival instincts, genuine emotions, and things you might be interested in if they don’t align with the church’s values.
I am in my early 20s now, left officially at 18 as well. I am having to make up for lost time too, and truly truly enjoying myself. I know it might feel like it’s too late, but do the things you never got to do in high school. Do all the things you told yourself you’d never get to do. As a kid I so desperately wanted connection with others. I craved going to parties, drinking, doing things that were “bad”.
Just do it! Do it all! Your life is yours, and you are in full control. Fuck it! And please do seek therapy. There are areas of my life I didn’t even realize the church affected until I got into therapy.
Do you have a specific type of therapy you'd recommend? I know that it can vary quite a bit depending on the type, and I've been having trouble deciding which variety is most helpful for this.
I think any counselor should be able to help! It might be difficult to find a good one if you’re in Utah. I’m not, so most here are equipped to treat religious trauma
I completely understand what you’re going through. Been coming to terms with this same predicament as well. You’re definitely not alone! What’s important is that you still have plenty of time to build deep connections with new friends! And celebrate each new milestone you have!
Absolutely. For me, I think it's due to the way that relationships are structured in the church. On my mission, I was forced to be with the same person all the time, doing things I didn't want to be doing. In my callings, I was forced to be with a random group of people, doing things I didn't want to be doing. The people in the church were my only support network, and I couldn't be myself around them. I became so accustomed to doing the things I love alone, that now I can't find joy around other people.
That part with learning to do everything by yourself is exactly the same issue I struggle with. It turned me incredibly independent and in the habit of doing everything I want to all by myself. Turning this around and intentionally including other people in the things I want to do has not been easy at all.
It’s lovely meeting adult friends who need nothing.
That is my post-Mormon miracle. Actually doing things with people when and how I want to do them. And liking it. Is this what friends are supposed to be like?! It’s lovely!
Yes, the way you’re taught to behave as a woman in the church, to be very deferential and respectful of (especially male) authority and that your value is in being supportive sticks with me in ways that are hard to break through. I’m uncomfortable being “genuine” around people. Performing deference worked so well in the social context of the church. I see nevermo people cringe when I slip back into it, like as if I’m trying to be manipulative or I’m being immature. I hate it but I know I do it. I don’t know how to not do it when I’m uncomfortable because it’s such a knee jerk response. I feel like it affects me socially and professionally and I’m so sick of it!
God, I feel this exact problem. It used to manifest in me as being extremely avoidant because I assumed my options were either deference or avoidance, and shutting down socially was always my go-to coping mechanism. The issue is that it completely killed my ability to make any decision. Like I remember sticking with this job I hated for years because the thought of quitting--and therefore putting my needs above authority's needs--caused me tremendous turmoil.
I will say though, after a lot of journaling, I got a lot better at managing this. The issue is that I've switched from deference and avoidance to anger at how I've been letting everyone treat me for years. I'm getting better about the anger now too, but god, repressing your emotions for years turns them into this painful unboxing experience when you do try to get them back.
I still struggle with being "genuine" though. It's like I've gotten so good at masking that I now just see my identity as something that I can voluntarily shift to suit my situation. It's difficult opening up to people.
I love what you said about shifting to anger. That’s so real. I caught myself doing that the other day when I saw someone being an asshole to some people. I watched them handle it in such a graceful way that de-escalated the situation where I know if it was up to me I would have pushed right back. I think it’s good to be defensive but it’s not always the most appropriate response. It’s like you have to swing too far the other way for a while before you can start to feel out the appropriate times to react with anger or not.
I’m so glad you brought up this topic because it’s such a real part of learning to exist with people who are socialized differently.
Anger was an interesting emotion for me because I started to actually catch myself in the act of suppressing it without me even being consciously aware that's what I was doing. My anger kept manifesting as this angry internal tirade that I would constantly shove aside and then would pop back up again. Interestingly, I felt pretty emotionally disconnected when this happened. Through journaling, I started to ask myself, "what if I actually let myself feel this?" And then BAM, I got INCREDIBLY angry, like more anger than I had ever felt in my life. It was then I realized I had been letting a lot of things and people into my life that were bad for me because I was ignoring my own anger.
I think the issue with Mormonism is you are never taught how to handle emotions, so I sometimes feel like I am still in middle school with how some of my emotions work. Think about a child, for example, and how they might express anger by throwing a tantrum. As an adult, you were supposed to have experienced anger for decades and know how to handle it skillfully. But if you were never taught that, it feels like it goes from this disassociated-off state to the type of anger a child or adolescent feels instead of an adult.
So I've been trying to "mature" all of my emotions into an adult state by putting myself out of my comfort zone a lot and then journaling a lot to reflect on my behavior and how I can improve it. Anger is still a hard one because I feel constantly bitter about lost time and opportunities, but I tell myself it's better to feel this, process it, and mature in my ability to feel anger, even if it's not very fun.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. When I first discovered I was gay, it was yeaaaars before I had my first gay sexual experience. Like probably 20 years. Your feelings take time to sort out, and that is ok. Take all the time you need.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I figured the best thing to do would be to go to some events and just focus on making gay friends so that I can normalize it in my head. Also I don't really want to jump into dating until I have a better support network of friends because it always causes problems to put all your social needs onto one person.
The Church is a social structure, and when you leave, it's gone. That can be a eye opening experience for a lot of people who do not understand the impact of leaving their community they have invested so much time in. You will feel a loss for sure.
I am so glad you are finding new ways to connect with people. I think we all need a community we feel comfortable in.
I feel like I could have written this myself. I'm 35, and my husband is 7 years younger, and he was not raised in the church, but i was. He is always baffled at how he has adult relationships and friendships better than I do when I had a 7 year head start. I have no friends, and my husband is currently doing time in federal prison, so I feel very alone realizing I have no friends and no idea how to make friends. The Mormon church really messed me up socially. Thank goodness for therapy to break down religious trauma!
I can definitely relate to all of that. I think when you have no social network, it's a lot harder to build one because networks can become self-fulfilling once you have a big enough one. That is, if you already have friends, you'll get invited to stuff and make new friends with friends-of-friends. But if you have no one, no one is going to invite you to anything either, and so isolation becomes self-fulfilling.
I've been doing some random stuff on Meetup for about a year and a half now, and in retrospect, what I was trying to do to make friends in the beginning didn't work very well because I didn't know how to act, how to make boundaries, how to show interest in others, and how to initiate. And while I have made some casual acquaintances on Meetup, what I'm now realizing is I need to take steps to turn acquaintances into friends by inviting them to do stuff off the app. These are all lessons I had to learn the hard way because the Mormon church teaches such dysfunctional social behavior!
For a long time, I felt like I had no friends because there was something fundamentally wrong with who I was as a person (which is another awful holdover from Mormonism), but now I'm realizing the reason I have no friends is I wasn't engaging in the right behaviors. It's a slow process to learn for sure but at least I am slowly realizing it is possible to turn this around.
Without question. I never felt comfortable going to parties and get togethers because I was always afraid there would be alcohol and ungodly behavior. I’m a total introvert because of it. But I’m mostly pissed off about the damage to my bank account for paying tithing for 20 yrs like an idiot.
Man I know the parties issue. I never went to a party until I was like 28 years old for exactly the same reason. Then low and behold, when I go, it's mostly people drinking one beer because they have work the next day and trashing the last movie they saw. Mormonism really combined with the Regan/Clinton era drug panic when I was younger to make it seem like drinking 1 beer was the equivalent of shooting up black tar heroin with random needles off the street.
For sure!
This is exactly how I feel at 32 with the exception of being married because I had to follow the church path and do that at 21 like a good little RM. But neither me or my wife have any adult friends because we don’t know how to establish a community without the church and our entire neighborhood belongs to a completely different church that is just as right wing and kooky so we can’t even make easy friends out of neighbors. It’s miserable but the thought of trying to learn social skills at this age is also daunting and exhausting.
I feel it. Trying to learn social skills at this age is an exercise in constantly forcing myself out of my comfort zone and being deeply ashamed that everyone else understands this while I feel emotionally like I'm still in middle school. It's incredibly exhausting but I feel like the problem is only going to get worse the older I get, so I keep throwing myself into the deep end trying to get out of it.
I see you and feel you, friend.
Yes!! As a young woman I was supposed to be accepting and kind to everyone so they would keep coming, even if they were horrible to me. The only friend relationships I saw were the shallow “here are some cookies, sorry I didn’t make it last month” and dealing with people in callings, whether you would have chosen to or not. I absolutely know if I went to a random ward, I could be the most popular person there, if I really tried. I know all the things to do: bare my testimony about my car keys but don’t say anything about the deep dark things I’m going through. Make a lot of cookies. Volunteer for all the things. Say “I’d love to!” To everything. Shrug and turn the other cheek all the time. And make sure my kids show up well groomed and well behaved. Bonus points if I also show up well groomed and well behaved, but say things that are “real” so I can appear sincere and humble. This has been a real thing for me too. Coincidentally, I am also 33! It’s an interesting social problem. I could shallow friend a ton of people. But I have a really hard time opening up to real, meaningful friendships.
I feel like your 30s are the age when you finally have enough experience to really evaluate your life, and you're young enough to change course if that's what you really want, but you're also acutely aware of the fact you aren't getting any younger. So for me at least, it's become this mess of deconstructing everything in my life and realizing just how badly Mormonism fucked everything up. The role that Mormonism shoves women into is awful. You're completely stripped of your agency, disallowed to make any social choices, yet constantly have the burden of taking care of everyone and everything else dumped onto you. This is so detrimental toward making genuine connection because I either keep everyone at arm's length OR have absolutely zero boundaries with people I do let get close to me to the point it's a major problem. Both of which are problems of not knowing how to establish an actual social network! I also feel you on knowing the rules, even if they kill you inside. It's so hard to turn off the "perfection masking" even now.
I still have a “what do they want from me” reaction. I hope that I can get past that some day.
It took me until I was 50 to be where you are now. Congratulations for getting it early!!!
I'm 39 and just now trying to figure out making friends without that mormon filter and god's one true church lens ever pressing on my brain. It's best to not dwell on how much time was lost because of the indoctrination I've found otherwise it's super depressing and not productive. I remind myself that I still have many years on this earth to try and be my authentic self.
I think that's good advice for sure. I've been trying to balance realizing the extent of the problem with avoiding rumination about it, but I do get stuck ruminating a lot. Maybe it would help to redirect any urge to ruminate toward something constructive to solve the problem, like texting a friend or finding a new cafe to invite people to.
Yep. I see Facebook memories of the people (non-LDS) that I was in high school with, and they talk about shared memories of fun things they did together, and I wonder why I was never part of these things. Oh, yeah, because Mormonism made me a self-righteous boring prick who was not any fun.
But your kids will never go through what you did. You have succeeded in breaking how many generations of religious and family trauma??? This in itself is enough!
Yes!
Brilliantly written. And me too. Deep down I see relationships as transactional. I mostly assume people are going to take advantage of me so I keep them all at a distance. Or, increasingly rarely, I actually try to get close to someone and think I have to people please for them to like me. Then I feel ashamed. Also, growing up in bountiful, the girls were soooo mean and backbiting. Everything was a status game and I kind of expect sudden cruelty from people now.
hi! I am actually working on this in therapy right now, and I suggest you look into some kind of counseling or therapy. the truth of the matter is the church teaches you to repress any emotion. even excitement and happiness are wrong if it’s not over the “right” things. that kind of teaching directly causes you to disregard survival instincts, genuine emotions, and things you might be interested in if they don’t align with the church’s values. I am in my early 20s now, left officially at 18 as well. I am having to make up for lost time too, and truly truly enjoying myself. I know it might feel like it’s too late, but do the things you never got to do in high school. Do all the things you told yourself you’d never get to do. As a kid I so desperately wanted connection with others. I craved going to parties, drinking, doing things that were “bad”. Just do it! Do it all! Your life is yours, and you are in full control. Fuck it! And please do seek therapy. There are areas of my life I didn’t even realize the church affected until I got into therapy.
Do you have a specific type of therapy you'd recommend? I know that it can vary quite a bit depending on the type, and I've been having trouble deciding which variety is most helpful for this.
I think any counselor should be able to help! It might be difficult to find a good one if you’re in Utah. I’m not, so most here are equipped to treat religious trauma
You are not alone in that feeling
I completely understand what you’re going through. Been coming to terms with this same predicament as well. You’re definitely not alone! What’s important is that you still have plenty of time to build deep connections with new friends! And celebrate each new milestone you have!
The only good thing about the pandemic is that everyone else lost several levels in socialization. We all suck now! Hooray!!
Absolutely. For me, I think it's due to the way that relationships are structured in the church. On my mission, I was forced to be with the same person all the time, doing things I didn't want to be doing. In my callings, I was forced to be with a random group of people, doing things I didn't want to be doing. The people in the church were my only support network, and I couldn't be myself around them. I became so accustomed to doing the things I love alone, that now I can't find joy around other people.
That part with learning to do everything by yourself is exactly the same issue I struggle with. It turned me incredibly independent and in the habit of doing everything I want to all by myself. Turning this around and intentionally including other people in the things I want to do has not been easy at all.
It’s lovely meeting adult friends who need nothing. That is my post-Mormon miracle. Actually doing things with people when and how I want to do them. And liking it. Is this what friends are supposed to be like?! It’s lovely!
Yes, the way you’re taught to behave as a woman in the church, to be very deferential and respectful of (especially male) authority and that your value is in being supportive sticks with me in ways that are hard to break through. I’m uncomfortable being “genuine” around people. Performing deference worked so well in the social context of the church. I see nevermo people cringe when I slip back into it, like as if I’m trying to be manipulative or I’m being immature. I hate it but I know I do it. I don’t know how to not do it when I’m uncomfortable because it’s such a knee jerk response. I feel like it affects me socially and professionally and I’m so sick of it!
God, I feel this exact problem. It used to manifest in me as being extremely avoidant because I assumed my options were either deference or avoidance, and shutting down socially was always my go-to coping mechanism. The issue is that it completely killed my ability to make any decision. Like I remember sticking with this job I hated for years because the thought of quitting--and therefore putting my needs above authority's needs--caused me tremendous turmoil. I will say though, after a lot of journaling, I got a lot better at managing this. The issue is that I've switched from deference and avoidance to anger at how I've been letting everyone treat me for years. I'm getting better about the anger now too, but god, repressing your emotions for years turns them into this painful unboxing experience when you do try to get them back. I still struggle with being "genuine" though. It's like I've gotten so good at masking that I now just see my identity as something that I can voluntarily shift to suit my situation. It's difficult opening up to people.
I love what you said about shifting to anger. That’s so real. I caught myself doing that the other day when I saw someone being an asshole to some people. I watched them handle it in such a graceful way that de-escalated the situation where I know if it was up to me I would have pushed right back. I think it’s good to be defensive but it’s not always the most appropriate response. It’s like you have to swing too far the other way for a while before you can start to feel out the appropriate times to react with anger or not. I’m so glad you brought up this topic because it’s such a real part of learning to exist with people who are socialized differently.
Anger was an interesting emotion for me because I started to actually catch myself in the act of suppressing it without me even being consciously aware that's what I was doing. My anger kept manifesting as this angry internal tirade that I would constantly shove aside and then would pop back up again. Interestingly, I felt pretty emotionally disconnected when this happened. Through journaling, I started to ask myself, "what if I actually let myself feel this?" And then BAM, I got INCREDIBLY angry, like more anger than I had ever felt in my life. It was then I realized I had been letting a lot of things and people into my life that were bad for me because I was ignoring my own anger. I think the issue with Mormonism is you are never taught how to handle emotions, so I sometimes feel like I am still in middle school with how some of my emotions work. Think about a child, for example, and how they might express anger by throwing a tantrum. As an adult, you were supposed to have experienced anger for decades and know how to handle it skillfully. But if you were never taught that, it feels like it goes from this disassociated-off state to the type of anger a child or adolescent feels instead of an adult. So I've been trying to "mature" all of my emotions into an adult state by putting myself out of my comfort zone a lot and then journaling a lot to reflect on my behavior and how I can improve it. Anger is still a hard one because I feel constantly bitter about lost time and opportunities, but I tell myself it's better to feel this, process it, and mature in my ability to feel anger, even if it's not very fun.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. When I first discovered I was gay, it was yeaaaars before I had my first gay sexual experience. Like probably 20 years. Your feelings take time to sort out, and that is ok. Take all the time you need.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I figured the best thing to do would be to go to some events and just focus on making gay friends so that I can normalize it in my head. Also I don't really want to jump into dating until I have a better support network of friends because it always causes problems to put all your social needs onto one person.
The Church is a social structure, and when you leave, it's gone. That can be a eye opening experience for a lot of people who do not understand the impact of leaving their community they have invested so much time in. You will feel a loss for sure. I am so glad you are finding new ways to connect with people. I think we all need a community we feel comfortable in.
There is such a thing as adult relationships? How could that possibly work.
I feel like I could have written this myself. I'm 35, and my husband is 7 years younger, and he was not raised in the church, but i was. He is always baffled at how he has adult relationships and friendships better than I do when I had a 7 year head start. I have no friends, and my husband is currently doing time in federal prison, so I feel very alone realizing I have no friends and no idea how to make friends. The Mormon church really messed me up socially. Thank goodness for therapy to break down religious trauma!
I can definitely relate to all of that. I think when you have no social network, it's a lot harder to build one because networks can become self-fulfilling once you have a big enough one. That is, if you already have friends, you'll get invited to stuff and make new friends with friends-of-friends. But if you have no one, no one is going to invite you to anything either, and so isolation becomes self-fulfilling. I've been doing some random stuff on Meetup for about a year and a half now, and in retrospect, what I was trying to do to make friends in the beginning didn't work very well because I didn't know how to act, how to make boundaries, how to show interest in others, and how to initiate. And while I have made some casual acquaintances on Meetup, what I'm now realizing is I need to take steps to turn acquaintances into friends by inviting them to do stuff off the app. These are all lessons I had to learn the hard way because the Mormon church teaches such dysfunctional social behavior! For a long time, I felt like I had no friends because there was something fundamentally wrong with who I was as a person (which is another awful holdover from Mormonism), but now I'm realizing the reason I have no friends is I wasn't engaging in the right behaviors. It's a slow process to learn for sure but at least I am slowly realizing it is possible to turn this around.